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five-flavor-soup · 1 month

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This is technically in response/as an addition to a post on the supposed ‘double standard’ in the fandom between Zuko and Jet as Katara’s love interests, but it’s been so long since it was posted and I figured the OP would be entirely uninterested in my word vomit, especially after like one and half years—so, separate post. I added a link for those interested. There's a cut because this got quite long lmao.

In short, the post supposes the argument that though Jet would’ve made Katara kill people (something Zuko very much Did Not Do, no matter what you think about The Southern Raiders), he cleaned up his act after this. Zuko, on the other hand, did lots of Really Bad Things to Katara & Co. with far more frequency than Jet did and got redeemed after a multitude of episodes doing Various Things Moste Evile. To then slap Jet with The Toxic Ex-label and see Zuko as the ‘healthier’ and ‘better’ option creates a Double Standard(™) within the fandom, which is supposedly bad and not an arguably incorrect reading.

But the differences in fandom perception between Jet and Zuko as Love Interests for Katara (one of which canonically, and the other potentially and apparently talked about in the writer’s room) are easily explained, as can the Supposed Double Standard—just by thinking about it from Katara’s viewpoint, or even the audience’s. Because, well, the worst things Jet ‘almost’ ended up doing didn’t happen because of outside interference only.

That’s the important bit here. He 100% would’ve drowned an entire village just to get rid of a handful of Fire Nation soldiers, had Sokka not managed to evacuate everybody. He 100% would’ve grievously injured two people who, as far as Jet and everybody else were aware, were refugees who might not even be firebenders — considering nobody else saw Iroh heat up his tea, he could’ve been wrong — in an attempt to prove his own hunch. Had the guards not been there, had Zuko not been able to fight back with swords, Jet would’ve genuinely attempted to wound them for as much as a puff of smoke. And Jet consistently involves bystanders (innocent or not) in his desperate quest to harm and defeat the Fire Nation: the Gaang (and particularly Katara, through explicitly manipulative means) and the villagers in Jet; Zuko, Iroh, and the people in the teashop in City of Walls and Secrets. Additionally, we don’t see more violence from him because he’s not a main character like Zuko is—though it’s implied that Jet beats up villagers who are supposedly in cahoots with the Fire Nation often, only agreeing to turn over a new leaf when he, Smellerbee, and Longshot decide to move to Ba Sing Se.

Zuko explicitly and frequently doesn’t harm people: that, or it isn’t important to the plot. He doesn’t burn down the village on Kyoshi, he literally only manages to lightly singe it. He threatens people with violence frequently but never actually goes in for the kill. I’d argue that the most explicitly violent thing he does in Book 1 is breaking Aang out of the Pouhai Stronghold—for his own ends obviously, but if it’s spelled like treason and sounds like treason, it’s probably treason. When he thinks of robbing the pregnant couple while he’s on the run, he stops himself of his own volition; when he considers using Appa to catch Aang (this was a point made against Zuko in the post), he’s unaware of what Appa’s been through prior to that point and sees him as no more than an animal used for travel, much like the ostrich horse he stole earlier in the season.

Zuko’s schtick throughout Book 1 and 2 is that he doesn’t want to think of the consequences of his actions. His plans are never fully complete. He doesn’t think of how he’s going to get a chained, notoriously slippery little eel of an Avatar to the Fire Nation, and he doesn’t think about what would happen to twelve-year-old Aang after they got there—which is horrible of him, but it also shows an odd, ignorant kind of innocence that you’d associate with a kid who’s got a hard time telling right from wrong. Like, I love Zuko dearly, adore him even, but kiddo doesn’t think ahead until the Book 2 finale and even that’s debatable. He’ll eventually start thinking ahead a little bit but for the most part, he doesn’t. Not saying that takes away responsibility, because it absolutely doesn’t, but it is telling of Zuko’s character: he’s an ‘act first, think later’-kind of guy, all ‘fuck around; find out; maybe success’. His sole goal throughout Book 1 and 2 is going home, without even thinking on how to get there beyond like, Avatar in my custody => back in Fire Nation with Avatar => dad loves me again. And he says that his only intention is to go home too, in Ep 2 of Book 1:

Aang: If I go with you, [He holds his staff in front of him as an offer, making sure Zuko understands that he does not wish to continue fighting.] will you promise to leave everyone alone? [The camera cuts to a side-view of the area, Zuko's men still surrounding him, spears poised. After a brief moment of hesitation, Zuko erects himself and nods in agreement. Aang is apprehended by Zuko's men, who take his staff . . . ] Zuko: [Boarding the ship up the walkway. Determined.] Head a course for the Fire Nation. I'm going home.

(Added emphasis for my point)

Zuko is not the Big Bad. He’s not The Largest Threat. He never is. In Book 1 it’s Zhao, in Book 2 it’s Azula, and in Book 3 it’s Ozai. Zuko is a consistent threat, yes, but not a particularly large one no matter how good of a fighter he is. Because he’s presented to us as a disastrously hurt and traumatised little brat who we, the audience, are supposed to feel sorry for, and slowly grow fond of. Because we learn in The Storm that the notion of “caring for others is weak” has literally been branded into him. Because he keeps getting back up to fight, but consistently holds back. We are shown that he knows, on some level, that what he’s doing is wrong: the text suggests that Zuko is actively suppressing his morals. And by the time Zuko hires an assassin to ensure the Avatar is dead, we know that Zuko is incredibly unhappy with his choice(s) and is desperate to be safe; that he’s uncomfortable but wants to be comfortable; that he’s incorrect about the source of his fear while he’s back in the palace. The audience is shown this explicitly.

By contrast, we’re shown that Jet is fully aware that those villagers will die. He’s fully aware that, if he manages to prove the two refugees are firebenders, they’ll be arrested and probably mutilated (if the hand-crushing is any indication). I love Jet and his character, but he’s supposed to be the example of poisoning yourself with your hatred, anger, and hurt. He’s revenge that goes too far, because he doesn’t allow himself closure. He knows the consequences and isn’t shown to care for them, as long as his goal is furthered.

And there is the small, but significant, difference between the two characters: Zuko initially just wants to capture the Avatar, is purposefully remaining unaware of what will happen when he does so, and is clearly shown to change, while Jet just wants to punish firebenders and is very aware of what will be necessary for him to do so, with a handful of lines of how he ‘stopped being like that’. And honestly, Jet is far more mature than Zuko is for quite some time, regarding the violence of war—basically as mature as Zuko eventually becomes at the tail-end of his redemption arc. But Zuko’s maturity is at that point healthier, because he doesn’t want to genuinely do harm.

In regards to their separate relationships with Katara, there’s these fantastic points that @sokkastyles made in reply to the post:

The fact that Zuko actually did change and Katara actually forgave him makes ALL the difference. [ . . . ] The thing about Jet is how manipulative he was with Katara. He not only almost made her kill innocents, but he lied to her about the man he attacked having a knife when he was called out, so that Katara would see her as righteous. Someone who is willing to lie in order to make themselves seem good and someone who says they are going to change but then does the same things doesn’t have a good track record, and that’s a more troubling relationship dynamic than someone who acts as an upfront enemy but then sincerely changes.

And:

I do think it makes sense to focus on manipulation being worse than being a cartoon villain when we're talking about personal relationships. I think many people can relate to having someone like Jet in their lives who seems nice but who lies and manipulates to justify their own bad behavior despite repeatedly claiming that they will change. Not that many people will experience being tied to a tree by someone who wants you to tell them where the Avatar is, and it is completely reasonable for people to be more forgivable of things Zuko did as a villain than things Jet did to Katara when he claimed to be a friend.

I actually don’t have anything to add to this, lol. It’s succinct and well-worded.

Lastly, in addition the relatability and the relationships being different (the manipulative, emotionally hurt, and self-proclaimed anti-hero versus the initially childish, explicitly confused and desperate cartoon villain, plus the girl they hurt horribly), there’s also the problem of Jet not being a main character. Jet is a relatively well-written side character, whilst Zuko is very quickly established as a main-ish character with his own POV (as the writers decided during the conceptualisation that he’d be joining Team Avatar eventually). Zuko’s troubling, self-destructive nature that has been forced upon him and his Tragic Childhood is shown in high definition. The audience is supposed to eventually be okay with Zuko and hopefully like him, slowly adding puzzle pieces to complete the picture of a horrific earlier youth and treatment by nearly everybody he knows except Iroh. Something like this isn’t necessary with Jet, not just because he was already incredibly likeable and understandable from his introduction and onwards, but also because he’s neither a villain nor a main character.

There’s multiple reasons as to why Zuko is often seen as the ‘better’ option, just like there are multiple reasons why Jet and Zuko are compared so frequently—they’re both traumatised teenage boys who ‘rebel’ to get some semblance of control back, but we see Zuko change into a kid anyone would be a little bit proud and fond of and that doesn’t happen with Jet. Double standard or not, Zuko and Jet are different characters who the writers also treated very differently, on purpose. It makes sense to me that the audience would think Zutara is the ‘less bad’ or far better option. We know far more about Zuko than we know about Jet; and Jet’s redemption arc, if we can even call it that, halts permanently when Zuko’s is reaching the height it for him to go into a freefall, ultimately culminating in a genuine redemption. We, the audience, know this. So does Katara.

#atla meta #zutara meta #not tagging this j*t*ra bc its a bit negative and i do not want to infringe on anyone's tag lmao #but i will tag it #jetara critical #just to be safe #jet atla #prince zuko #katara #zutara #the thing about both these ships is that katara can be put down as making an active choice in the narrative #though it wants to punish her for it #she is Wrong. he is Bad Guy. here's Better Guy go have babies #regardless. i feel like post-redemption zuko would be easier for her to choose--because she saw the proof of his change

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animezinglife · 3 months

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Not to sound weak and basic, but I could never have been "friends" with Lucien.

I could not have been or be *just* friends with Lucien.

Feyre's built differently.

#acotar #lucien vanserra #just speaking my truth #a court of thorns and roses #acowar #a court of wings and ruin #a court of frost and starlight #yeah Rhys is one thing but I'll never fathom how she had eyes for Tamlin over Lu #Lucien's 100% that guy friend you just silently lust and suffer over the entirety of your ''friendship''#I know myself well enough to know Az would be a struggle too #I would not be well in this universe #sjm #sarah j maas

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catocappuccino · 5 months

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U zee being cool and allat... like she always is

+ two random doodles

#guess my favourite character!!! 😜 (difficulty : IMPOSSIBLE) /j #I love Uzi such a big amount she's like a daughter to me y'all will never understand y'all will neve #WHY IS HER HEAD TURNED TO THE... right?... WEST IN ALL OF THESE 😭 I swear I had drawn her from every angle possible this is a coincidence #reject medibang return to MS paint #oh yeah also what happened to my last post. Who decided it will blow up. Why is it over 800 notes- THANKS? THANK YOU??? I donno what to say #like honestly I did NOT expect that doodle to gain traction but I guess it did so- yeah! Thanks guys you rule🔥 keep murdering those drones #murder drones #uzi doorman #md uzi #uzi murder drones #my art

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bagelsenjoyer14 · 10 months

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The world wasn’t ready for her and I fear we never will be

#She slayed to hard #my lord I’m deceased #I need more fem crowley I’m actually begging guys #instead we get damn beard Crowley (the worst possible outcome)#/j #jim good omens #good omens #good omens season two #crowley #aziraphale #nanny ashtoreth

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macncheems · 10 months

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sometimes a family is a clone of joan of arc, a robot butler, and a mad scientist🩷

#clone high #clone high season two #clone high joan of arc #cinnamon j scudworth #mr butlertron #scudlertron family is real you guys #she has two dads now #im a sucker for the found family trope #AUGH #the family ever #cant believe scudlertron is canon and they adopted joan this is crazy

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lorelaiislatte · 4 days

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cool great to know our shortened suddenly-final season not only was missing a principle character for about a third of it but also wasted over half of the season focusing on a guy from a different branch of the franchise that nobody asked for and who has genuinely done nothing but detract from the characters we were all actually there for

#especially jane but it’s hit everyone #i feel like we’ve barely seen jesse this season #not to mention how few social scenes we’ve had between anyone #like there’s just nothing and i’m so beyond disappointed #ncis hawaii #to be clear: not disappointed in yas she deserves to do whatever she wants #just abt sam. sorry ll cool j i’m sure you’re a great guy but respectfully. we didn’t need you

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professionalidiot32 · 25 days

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he’s a facebook mom to a weird egg first, and a silly little guy who wants to destroy the world second

he just wants to make a perfect world guys (replace every person and pokemon with a togepi)

#how else did she evolve if it’s a friendship evo 🙄 wake up volo deniers /j #i know this guy has 7000 photos of her and posts them all on facebook with a long ass caption and every emoji that exists #pokemon volo #pla volo #volo #pokemon legends arceus #legends arceus #volo pokemon #pla #togepi #togetic #traditional art #pokemon #art #the baby evolved today!!! hashtag mom life 😝😝 only single moms get the struggle 😔🙌 love my flying egg daughter 😇#then he starts ranting about arceus or something and nobody likes his posts because they all have him blocked (deserved)

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thermodynamic-comedian · 1 year

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the fact that the harrow nova universe implies that gideon is now the necromancer makes me crave a true role reversal au. like, one where everyone's roles are reversed.

just imagine. ianthe and coronabeth as cavaliers. babs as a necromancer. palamedes as a cavalier. camilla as a necromancer.

fuck it. go even further;

lock john in the tomb.

idea: alecto locked him in the tomb when she realized he had too many powers for one human to have, and had become an active threat.

now, this leaves us in a universe where....alecto is the emperor. and to be completely fair, her overall personality and demeanor fit the role of god much better than john's. which leaves us with two very different versions of mercymorn and augustine. a mercymorn and augustine who are, for one, absolutely terrified of the emperor of the nine houses, and a mercymorn and augustine who know they can't threesome their way into a betrayal. and maybe, just maybe, they're not too fond of the whole "locked our friend in a tomb on pluto for 10 000 years" thing.

as for john himself, idk man. maybe some time in the tomb would do him some good. a few thousand years to, like, y'know. think about the whole "destroyed the universe" thing. also, i just like the idea of him, at the end of the nova universe's version of ntn, walking out of the tomb and saying something stupid like "what year is it?" "10008" "damn it. my alarm didn't go off."

oh, also, pyrrha in control of g1deon for the entirety of htn, only for g1deon to emerge at the end. haven't given this idea that much thought, but i'm sure there are g1deon enthusiasts who could do it justice.

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far-beyond-saving · 1 month

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When Gwen ends up in a sapphic relationship (notice that I said when, not if, because that bitch is a lesbian), we will need to make some fucking noise. I want fanart, fanfics, etc.. I’m so starved for f/f content, dear god.

#if she’s not a lesbian #or at least not queer #i am rioting /j #and if she ends up dying before then #i will cry #but please do not miss out on the good sapphic content guys #i believe in you #gwendolyn bouchard #the magnus protocol #tmagp #cynic.txt

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myheadphonesareneverloudenough · 2 months

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we dont talk enough about how the original version of the Greenpeace girl in TGWDLM was an angry old woman named Mrs. Lipschitz who was Paul's landlord.

all im saying is that somewhere in the multiverse, Richie's grandmother is a bitchy landlord.

#also yes she was still to be played by mariah lmao #j screams #hatchetfield #tgwdlm #the guy who didn't like musicals #starkid

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marshmelonlover · 7 months

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Chakotay is the human manifestation of the 😍 emoji here

#star trek voyager #kathryn janeway #chakotay #janeway x chakotay #j/c #isla talks #all she has to do is speak and my guy immediately goes 😍🥰#dumbasses

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welcometogrouchland · 2 months

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I love Steph's origin as told in the Secret Origins 80 page giant- I just overall think it strengthens her character by giving her a lot of pathos and adding to her heroism (which isn't something writers were focused on in her actual intro in detective comics #647 since she was just meant to act as a plot device back then) BUT there is one tiny detail in it i will begrudge, and that is the portrayal of her having a minor love at first sight moment for tim

Secret origins 80 page giant, ID in alt

(or well, technically this was their second meeting in that story (the brick was the first) so...love at second sight?)

Mostly because Stephanie showed no interest in her introduction and only showed romantic feelings towards Tim AFTER this moment here:

Robin (1993) #4, ID in alt

Straight up the progression here goes:

The adventure in 'tec where they first meet -> Tim investigating the same crime scene as Steph -> she beats him up not knowing it's him at first, apologizes but says he shouldn't have scared her -> he remembers her/the moniker she goes by -> they talk about plot for a few pages -> Stephanie starts flirting

Robin (1993) #4, ID in alt

Which...is so fascinating to me and says so much about Stephanie. She highlights the fact that Tim "remembered" her. Like. Steph. Girl. This is our bar? It's sweet but kind of speaks to how much Stephanie is ignored at home/how little and sporadically she's shown interacting with her peers (and rarely ever the same kids twice). Her idea of peak romance is just...being on someone's mind even when you're not there.

Kind of also adds layers to Steph's proclivity towards jealousy later on, a manifestation of her insecurity and loneliness (though don't get it twisted, she's not written this way bc Dixon and co think it's an interesting character flaw, they wrote it bc they think it's an inherent character flaw of (particularly young) women/girls, which is very apparent in how he approaches Ariana's character as well from what I've read)

Also the fact that Steph becomes so smitten for Tim almost immediately after this is (a few issues later she aggressively flirts with him during AN ACTIVE HOSTAGE SITUATION. WHERE SHE'S THE HOSTAGE) again is kind of a mixture of kind of funny and sad. One boy is nice to her once and she's fully ready to wife him. Girl you are deranged (affectionate) (concerned)

#ramblings of a lunatic #dc comics #stephanie brown #tim drake #timsteph #meta #< ??? ig #robin 1993 #made this post and forgot to finish. saved it in drafts. saw posts that annoyed me. proceeded to finish it #the subset of fans who think they're doing a righteous feminism by giving steph more flaws than she has in canon...headaches #yes flawed female characters are important representation no i dont think you projecting chuck dixons conservative values onto her-#-is doing her character a great favour. if so you need to commit to the bit and make tim a stone cold nark /j #sorry okay im done vaguing. there's real things going on in the world that matter. the bad take is the mind killer etc etc #anyway the zero to 100 progression of early timsteph is fascinating. on the one hand i know it's mostly a product of its time #both in terms of portrayals of romance (esp teen romance) and partially of women and girls by dixon (not extremely boy obsessed-#-but there's a. dark shadow of the boy crazy trope. a gentle whiff of it in the air. just a little)#but bc this aspect isn't blatantly/egregiously author bias i choose to analyse it #i could also analyse how steph in general is portrayed as liking guys she can't/shouldn't have a little #(her crush on the much older detective in bg2009 and also tim a little bit w/ the secret identity thing)#(but that's a whole other discussion. also that aspect of the romance in bg2009 is. also a little sexistly motivated-#-and also dropped part way through to an extent so like..not exactly ripe for analysis)#ANYWHO i love you Steph <3 you're unwell and yet so adorable and compelling Steph <3

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