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hainethehero · 3 months

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Steve Rogers Trauma: A TED TALK

Why is it that any kind of commentary/analysis on Steve Roger's trauma has to be met with comparisons to Bucky or Tony's trauma? Or most of the fanfics I read completely gloss over Steve's trauma?

Some of y'all legit do not care or are blind to Steve Roger's trauma throughout the Captain America & Avengers films and it shows. And this isn't hate to any fanfic writers but rather an observation of most stucky and stony fanfics which seem to minimize Steve's character & trauma in favour of highlighting their fave's. And of course it's fine that people want to write about Bucky or Tony or even Nat's trauma, but MOST TIMES* I've read these fics and they all have an intentional disregard for Steve's traumas.

And this speaks to the wider discourse around Tony, Bucky & Steve- the three characters most written about in mcu fanfics.

Because why is it that anytime I bring up Steve's PTSD or his illnesses or the hell he would've gone through pre-serum, people always HAVE to add in their 2cents about, "well yeah & Bucky went through worse." Like.???? No, I'm not talking about him.

I absolutely love Bucky and he's one of my favourite characters in both the comics and the MCU but, respectfully, this ain't about him.

I'm talking about Steve and his life. The crap he would've had to deal with both in public and at home. Especially the horrors both he and Sarah would've gone through because of Joseph Rogers who was a terrible person and an alcoholic who beat up on his wife and sickly kid.

And even post-serum when he's completely healthy and living in the future now, I'm still seeing popular narratives about "Yeah he's alive now & hasn't gone through half of what Bucky's endured over the past 70yrs." OR "He's had it easy compared to Bucky who was being tortured by HYDRA."

Um, no one's saying Bucky's treatment under HYDRA was a good thing??? But we're talking about Steve here, not Bucky?

And how he was literally frozen in a state of purgatory & how traumatic it would feel to be ripped out of it and then basically thrown to the new world on your ass without any kind of therapy or help. Most people make it seem like Steve was in a Sleeping Beauty kind of sleep and then woke up completely fine. And I will admit the MCU has been the main culprit of that narrative because they deleted so many scenes that humanized Steve Rogers, that now the gen pop thinks:

he's perfectly fine

has zero trauma

should complain about nothing

hasn't had it hard like Bucky or Tony

is a lesser hero because of all of the above

I recently had a convo with a friend & we were talking abt the scene in Avengers 1 when they were all at each other's throats. And they said that Tony was right about Steve being a laboratory experiment & everything special about him came out of a bottle. And I'm like... yeah nah, that's the lazy ass writing that Whedon perpetuated that now makes Steve one of the most misunderstood heroes & people in the MCU. Because he was special before the serum because of his consideration of others. He was special because not only did he hate bullies, but he also went out of his way to protect those that couldn't protect themselves KNOWING what that confrontation might cost him as a chronically sick person. Tony needed a whole ass arc about literally witnessing & living first hand what his weapons were doing to innocents like Yinsen & his people, to change his ways. Steve didn't have, nor did he need any of that to make him special. (AND BEFORE THE TONY STANS COME FOR ME, I LOVE TONY, HE'S LITERALLY ONE OF MY FAVES IN THE MARVEL COMICS & MCU) But this hatred for Steve is ridiculous.

And once again, it's the MCUs fault because they made Tony the ultimate hero of the Avengers at the expense of Steve Rogers' character. Him being able to prove he was "worthy" all along by lifting Thor's hammer was a cheap payoff in the end, much like the entirety of Endgame was. Thanks for coming to my Ted talk.

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thefirstlioveyou · 4 months

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i think the one of the many reasons why mike’s monologue to will in s2 is more believable/genuine than the one to el in s4 is because he doesn’t paint out meeting will as something meant to be, or love at first sight, or destiny.

we would never really know who wrote the tweet where the st writers say they do not believe in love at first sight, it could’ve been anyone since apparently sometimes it’s not even the writers tweeting, if im correct? but, it’s still important to include anyway because the writing shows it still.

mike explicitly admits to will that meeting el was not destiny or fate, but pure dumb luck. in other words, there was no higher power driving them to be together no matter where they were in the world. it was just by chance. he then goes on to say that he only brought her in the house because she just needed someone, not that he magically fell in love - which is what he later contradicts by saying that he had immediately loved her in that moment. he lied. in s1, his first words when he sees el for the first time are quite literally, “it’s not will.” he initially planned to send her to an asylum after finding will.

that, plus the writer account saying they do not believe in love at first sight, shows that mike’s monologue to el in s4 is a load of bs.

mike’s monologue to will in s2 does the exact opposite, which is why it’s more believable.

not only does he not have to say ‘i love you’ to say ‘i love you,’ but in this scene, he does not give the universe credit for meeting will. there was no ‘destiny’ involved; he just happened to see will just as alone as he was and they bonded over it. mike emphasizes that it was his concious choice to approach and ask will to be his friend. he quite literally ends the monologue by saying, “it was the best thing i’ve ever done.” he gives himself the credit.

it was the best thing he ever done because of the life he’s lived with will. he did not know in that moment he met will that it was going to be best thing he’d ever done, he didn’t know how much he’d love him, he didn’t know the chaos that’d eventually come. all he knew was that he finally had a friend, and that’s what makes it so genuine and pure. the love grew naturally.

there was no love at first sight, because the writers do not believe in that, nor does the writing itself. jopper was not love at first sight, their love took time. lumax was something that both didn’t expect. jancy was something both didn’t expect either, one already being in a relationship and simply sharing her condolences and the other a rejected loner with set opinions on others.

the only one that didn’t follow this formula was mike and eleven. mike didn’t consider el in a romantic way at all until lucas told him that he should “just marry her already.” (ep2 or 3, i forgot). it was reallyyy early on. there was nothing natural compared to the others. mike felt he had to just because she is a girl and his friends said so.

i mean look at the face he makes right before he even kisses her the first time (after comparing her to family):

el sees mike as her caretaker in s1. mike is the first to provide any real care and shelter. but, she’s traumatized. she clings and follows on to the first person to show her real care. i don’t even think she saw him in a romantic way either until he kissed her. because she sees him as a caretaker, she follows through with it like she has to. now i do think there was some sort of eventual romantic feelings for mike on el’s side later in the series, but it’s not a healthy type. it’s a very skewed perspective due to trauma.

the only other relationship that does follow the same formula is mike and will.

they are endgame.

gootbye 🫶

#im too eepy for a proper ending paragraph im sorry 😭#byler #mike wheeler #will byers #stranger things #anti mlvn #anti mileven #my analysis

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sisterofficerlucychen · 1 year

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my take on tonight's episode is that it created parallels with episodes we've seen before, espeically past documentaries and chenford's dynamic but also set the stage for new parallels. i keep thinking of that ending scene in their apartment and i just know we're going to get some type of parallel to the conversation they had in a good way. lucy's "if you have to ask then you haven't been paying attention" like even from the first documentary, definitely by the second, you could see it. but the way they double down on their relationship and the fact that they're in such a healthy and loving relationship. the way "love" was mentioned and neither of them batted an eye.

i don't think there's ever any going back with chenford. the pendulum isn't going to swing the other way nor is the rug going to be pulled from under us. at the most, i think that possible angst could come just from thinking about that one post - i think it was from eric though it may have been from a writer or director - about someone asking about one of them being injured or something like that and they were kind of hinting that would happen? i think too with the cameo eric did when they filmed the season finale and he had a huge bruise on his neck? like tim may get injured? but then again we all remember the cold open with kelly clarkson and how the bts pics of them were being injured and there wasn't more to it.

anyway, what i guess i'm trying to say is i think chenford is safe, chenford is endgame. the writer's have been giving and we've been fed so much but i think this is our new reality?

#the rookie #chenford

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wisteriasymphony · 10 days

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tell us of the failed adrientte plz

Okay, so we have to go into the TWEOS lore with this one, irrefutable fact:

Adrien and Marinette were supposed to be made for each other.

This is because, like in canon, the miraculouses work better with strong bonds and like. In canon Adrinette is brought up multiple times to be the best relation to ever ship. In TWEOS, this is basically the kwamis playing matchmaker with their paper dolls. Because, in essence, that is what all holders are to them.

This is why both Marinette and Adrien display obsessive tendencies, albeit towards different people—The idea was that they'd latch onto one person (each other), and then it would stick.

Instance 1: Marinette latched onto Adrien long before she ever got her Miraculous.

The issue: She latched onto the idea of him marketed by Gabriel. No umbrella scene whatsoever. Adrien is her celebrity crush that she loves as if she's been in a years-long committed relationship.

Instance #2: Adrien latched onto... Claudia.

The issue: Not Marinette. Very much not Marinette. Despite everything any of the kwamis (or anyone else in Adrien's life) could ever do to pry him away from Claudia, Adrien will refuse to budge. He was practically designed to be a codependent partner, and it will show.

Next point—Because Adrinette is endgame, neither Marinette nor Adrien can have a fulfilling relationship before that. So Luka, Marinette's "fake" boyfriend, is an asshole who wants to have his cake of the Viperbug celebrity pairing and also be a womanizing local rockstar. Likewise, Kagami, Adrien's betrothed, never clicks with him, and her limited perspective means she's unwilling to fully relate to him without reflecting on the ways her mother has lied to her.

(There's also parallels between Kagami and Marinette in terms of their view of Adrien, even though the reverse between Luka and Adrien isn't as strong since Adrien has never really considered Marinette as a romantic interest. —unless, of course, that's the parallel in which case we found it!)

"But Wis, Claudia and Adrien are working out?"

...............eh. I can't even safely say they don't make each other worse, just that they're not getting worse alone. Also, by the point that Claudia and Adrien accept that they're a thing (and Claudia starts to close off because she suddenly realizes her flirtations have consequences), the scaffolding is already crumbling and also on fire. It would take a miracle for Adrinette to be healthy at that point, and yet Plagg and Tikki are still trying to get the Adrinette train back on track.

But they will fail.

@nocturnal-notes , because you like when i analyze my own stuff!

(other claudrien nation tags possibly pending, if i think it'd be worth it)

#if anyone has requests for things for me to talk about please ask!#i can talk about claudrien or the endings or the kwamis or adrien's childhood etc etc etc....#thewarmembraceofshadow #miraculous fanfic #tweos lore #wissym answers #rotten love square

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ladyelainehilfur · 6 months

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Yay!! I'm happy to see an Odd Girl Out reader who analyzes the story and really understands the characters (I read your blog post about your fave webtoons). How are you feeling about the hate Seungha is receiving? Many comments under each episode are about Chanyang being the best one for Nari and how Seungha is awful and how they'll drop the story if Chanyang x Nari aren't endgame. The way Morangg is writing Seungha's story saddens me not just because it is a sad story but because the author is incredible in fleshing him out, giving him so much development since the very beginning of season two, but the readers are too caught up on how he broke Nari's heart, refusing to see that Seungha is depressed and suffering just as much. So many shippers are focused on the romance and not the depth of the characters.

first: super sorry for answering this so late. I'm really glad to hear you enjoy reading me ranting about the comics I read :P

I believe the hate Seungha's receiving is from people who strongly relate to Nari and take her heartbreak as theirs. Seungha was in the wrong for refusing to communicate with Nari about his problems, but if Chanyang did the same thing, he might be disliked as well. People just don't like to think a guy they're in a good relationship with will turn on them for any reason, even if the reason is good.

Personally, I do prefer Seungha and Nari be endgame. As far as depth of character, Nari is much more suited to Seungha than Chanyang. We're experiencing Chanyang's backstory right now in the Korean updates, and while he's just as fleshed out as Seungha, his reasons for liking Nari still ring hollow in comparison to Seungha's. They both find her attractive, but like I've stated before, Nari is literally everything to Chanyang. His motivation, his happiness, his reason for living. It's not healthy and I don't want Nari to feel responsible for his growth as a person. He plants himself in various places in her life and some readers don't see that as problematic because his intention is romantic. Chanyang skipping school and running around the city to find her bookbag did display an admirable commitment, but also...that's crazy. Reckless displays of affection can be good, but he did it without thinking. Nari has that kind of influence over him, and that's just not it. I still like him as a character, because he does have a certain simple charm and humor about him, but he's simply not cut out to be a good long-term partner for her.

On the other hand, Seungha's brief time dating Nari without being her boyfriend showed how well they work together as a pair. I've heard people say they had to separate because Nari needed to come into her own as a student leader, and I don't disagree. She hadn't necessarily become reliant on him, but it did truly hurt her when she could no longer depend on him.

I think a lot of readers misinterpreted his decision to team up with Yurim. Admittedly, the optics of running for president against Nari while teamed up with her enemy were horrible. At that point, Seungha's main goal was to become the school president so his dad would "want" him and consider him as good as a biological son. He disregarded Nari's history with Yurim to achieve his goal because he felt had no other choice. He didn't know his parents would love him either way. His arc of coming out with the fact Yunha had been abusing him, and spending time away from his family to find and recenter himself was long. He didn't think Nari would stick around, and he didn't want to drag her through it anyway, so he wrongfully pushed her away instead of confiding in her.

Neither Chanyang nor Seungha are good at talking about their problems and feelings. Chanyang will make drastic decisions to solve his problems without telling the people he should so they're not in the dark, and Seungha does more or less the same. It's too bad that communication is Nari's main pull, because she does NOT like having to play detective. Chanyang could be dating Nari right now if he just told her about his messy family history, and I'm pretty sure she and Seungha would be half way to married if he'd just spilled about the abuse. Yunha would no longer be with us, but it would be a small price to pay.

However, it doesn't erase the good that happened when she and Seungha were on the same page. He met her where she was, he listened to her problems, and he supported her in the PR department when no one else did. He didn't blindly agree with everything she said, and in fact, he often challenged her. When she ignored him due to social pressure, he didn't let his feelings cloud his judgement or let that pressure get between their friendship. Like, when that man wants to fight for something or someone, he fights. He's not currently in the position to impose his feelings upon Nari, and he's not trying to, but they've made up in what has to be one of the cutest, goofiest ways I've seen a pair of characters perfectly suited for each other make up. (Spoiler: they both cried with each other).

I'm not sure what the author's intentions are with either Chanyang or Seungha at this point, but I've got a feeling this upcoming school festival arc is going to play a big role in determining who ends up with who. Nari slowly learning about Chanyang is leading up to something, as well as Seungha openly giving her full control of the organizational committee despite being school president. To me, the willingness to support Nari as a leader, while being a leader himself displays every reason why Seungha should be endgame. Neither of them consider each other above or below each other--they're equal partners.

I'm all for Nari putting herself first and deciding not to date anyone, but I hope she gives turtle-candy-loving, competitive-af, meticulous-date-planning, sometimes-cringe-fail Seungha a chance. I also hope she gathers enough information to give Chanyang a definitive, final answer concerning their relationship.

#odd girl out webtoon #seungha kwon #nari oh #whoops it's an essay #apologies for the fastpass and raw spoilers #ask #answered

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beepboop358 · 2 years

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Hi! thanks for sharing the slides❤️ I read them all over previous to vol. 2 only to be clowned, and then I went on twitter just to see people saying we had no right to be angry?

First of all yes we did! The cast and writers hyped up byler to deliver an even sadder and ignored Will right after? Noah did great, i cried along him and i know it’s the 80s and i know he’s young but why play around with the viewers and say we’d get a confirmation? Yes coming out doesn’t necessarily imply going “i am gay” in front of everyone but why should we conform with subtext every time? Im sick of queebaiting and “left to interpretation” and “common! it’s clear enough”s, that’s just playing it safe to not lose conservative crowd.

And honestly Mileven fans should be angry too, Mike gaslighted El and never offered a sincere explanation for his hot-n-cold behavior, Mike’s character right now doesn’t really deserve neither El nor Will’s adoration. And the incredible development El suffered for the whole season was reduced to a “love conquers all”, she really went to relieve her trauma all over again finally breaking away from her ‘papa’s manipulation to go back to “needing” Mike? I don’t like where they’re taking Mileven nor Mike’s character.

One more season to go, right? as you said there’s likely not a way they’ll resolve any relationship satisfactorily at this point. This was their season, they could’ve established the foundations for healthy endgame couples but i don’t really see how they can achieve this in just one more season. Sorely disappointed with the lazy writing.

hey!

I’m scared to log onto twitter right now LOL. But yeah, we have every right to be upset! And the people who say we don’t have clearly not been picking up on the obvious details that we have, so I don’t think it’s fair of people to say that. And I totally agree with you that mike/el shippers should upset too!!

You said this all very well and I 1000% agree with every point you made

hope you’re well! xx

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prol-x · 2 years

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Pam & Renee‘s Toxic Relationship

Renee was absolutely right when she said that they have a toxic relationship.

First of all, I don’t even understand Renee’s intentions. Like she wanted the old Pam back (okay fair enough) but when she saw that Ivy wouldn't change back into someone who couldn’t stand up for herself she betrayed her in the most horrible way. Both sides have their rights and wrongs of course but that’s not a healthy relationship.

I have so many questions because 10 years have passed and now Renee wants Pam back? Why now? What changed? Renee said she always regretted what she did and feels terrible. Okay yes, but you could have done something earlier or maybe not done that all? I get that she is conflicted about her feelings and doing what’s “right” but the timing feels weird.

Anyways, Pam is back now but without her full strength. That’s the next point I don’t quite understand. Renee helps her get Mary into the woods and then shoots Mary so they can’t meet? But in the end, steps aside? Talk about not knowing what you want. Plus, in the next episode, she’ll be on Batwoman’s side again and against Ivy.. again. Renee knew that Ivy would get her full strength back when she let Ivy get to Mary. What game are you playing Renee?

The most crucial point why I think their relationship is toxic is when Pam uses her pheromones on Renee.

I understand why Ivy did that and I’m kind of on her side. However, Renee reveals that she created her own toxin so she can’t get manipulated by Pam and that is it. Renee doesn’t trust Pam that she won’t manipulate her and created the toxin that Ivy didn’t create because she doesn’t trust Renee (Ivy gave Harley immunity, just saying). That means that the fundamental of their relationship isn’t trust it is fear. Maybe they do love each other but they are more afraid of how this relationship affects themselves and their goals than anything else.

This leads me to my next point. Every intimate moment they shared ended with one of them betraying the other. One is even worse than the other because.. listen, I get where Renee was coming from but that was the only solution? She tried everything else before she let Ivy rot in the ground? It‘s possible because we don’t know that much of their backstory but still.

After all of this, what’s the endgame going to be? Well, either Ivy gives up her crimes or Renee her oath to uphold the law and I don’t think nor do I want any of that. I love Ivy and her being a villain goes far deeper than I’d like to go into right now because her origin story is far more complex than what we got here. I don’t think giving up everything for a partner is the solution. Ivy outgrew herself and her weaknesses to the point where she doesn’t want to go back to this part of her life. Acceptance is the keyword in all this. Pam accepted what she is now and that she can’t change it but Renee didn’t or did she? When she talked to everyone else (Alice, Ryan, Sophie) about Ivy she said that Pam was a lost cause that Renee couldn’t save her but now she assumes that since Pam is back Renee can change her? Either Renee just wants to give the cool detective around everyone else but is just heartbroken deep inside and doesn’t know how to handle all of this or she is just a manipulative backstabber. However, the question remains: Why now?

All in all, I don’t think they’ll ever see eye to eye in this because one of them wants to go back and the other wants to move forward.

This is just my analysis of their relationship on what we know right now and maybe they can work it out in the end. Let me know what you think though!

#poison ivy #pamela isley #renee montoya #batwoman #dc #analysis #bridget regan #season 3

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chalabrun · 2 years

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how i ship madasaku (woyy ver.)

Disclaimer: This is not an analysis of how the fandom ships Madasaku. This isn’t pertinent to any other version other than my own that exists in my WOYY AU. This is not the result of fanon influence, nor should it be taken as such, because this is not a fanon analysis. If any other Madasaku fans want to know how your favorite authors/fanartists portray Madasaku, I highly recommend you ask them. They’ll probably love the interest. This is a subjective take and it shouldn’t be blown out of proportion as anything but.

So, with The Maiden wrapping up (it’s finished, I’m just staggering the posting rate) and The Mother (its sequel) coming very soon, I thought I’d round out the year with my thoughts on this ship as it exists in my series. It doesn’t need saying that Madasaku is a controversial ship at best, and has extreme potential for dark fic at worst. At its absolute best, time travel AU’s that occur before Madara snaps highlight what can be fantastic about this pairing as much as more villainous, post-canon takes can showcase how toxic it can become.

(And for the record, people who utilize more toxic dynamics shouldn’t be shamed for it. The potential is there, easily. Madara after he left Konoha spirals into depravity despite his endgame being anything but (”a world of peace, of winners, of love” is basically the tagline for the Inifinite Tsukiyomi) and there’s a lot to address for the harm Madara does, of how inhumane and merciless he can be. The toxicity is already there post-canon if an author decides he lives, but it only takes certain nudges to make it glaringly apparent.)

Which I think is what makes Madasaku such a fascinating character study. As I’ve come to find, healthy fic of this ship post-canon are rare. Very rare. Have I read them? Not greatly. Do I know they exist sparingly compared to time travel AU’s and modern mafia AU’s that draw so many people in? Certainly? Now, on to the discourse!

To begin, I think it merits saying that Sakura, as the main character, exists in a curious space of potential and underutilized latency despite being the main heroine. Now, in light of the well-established reincarnation cycle that Sasuke and Naruto share, it goes without saying that inserting Sakura as part of it as Naruto and Sasuke’s past lovers IS a popular trope, especially since Sakura married Sasuke (yes, they do love each other; Sasuke can’t be forced into a relationship, ya’ll!) and Naruto’s crush did flourish into true love. With the love triangle that flourished in canon well and true, it makes the potential of past love interests and finding ardor in those past incarnations who loved Sakura’s past incarnates a fun possibility to mess with in fandom.

That being said, what about a relationship with one of Sasuke’s past incarnations and Sakura?

I think what makes Sakura such an interesting choice (beyond what I’ve established here) is that she simultaneously inhabits two extremes. At once does Sakura embody the bull-headed, strong-armed approach of Tsunade with the strength to match. She has a temper, bonks offenders on the head as much as she smashes her way through the world, and responds to challenges with a tomboyish, undoubtedly masculine glee. Tsunade’s power was described as being like a “god of war”, while Sakura has undoubtedly surpassed her in every way, justifying Sakura’s own intense, warlike nature. To say that Sakura has an intense amount of masculine traits like Tsunade is valid. In Part II, she’s very battle-ready, warlike, refuses to give up, and someone who won’t back down from a challenge. And the same time...

Yet, Sakura embodies the feminine just as much. She was a victim of bullying that revealed itself in her demeanor, which in turn made her chronically insecure. From her introduction on, she’s established as someone who is a romantic, very centered on love (that doesn’t always have to revolve around Sasuke), has motifs that are strongly associated with Japanese femininity, and is established as being a kind and caring person who puts others before herself on many occasions; while Tsunade is definitely a caring person herself, she’s not as soft-hearted as Sakura, which is fine. But still, the crux of Sakura’s character is that she encapsulates both in equal spades.

Which is what makes contrasting her to Madara so extremely interesting.

Now, Madara is a complex tangle himself. Madara before Izuna’s death is a kind man, as Hashirama said. As a child, he had the same boisterousness and inferiority complex as characters like Naruto, and was the underdog in his relationship with Hashirama. As an adult, he seemed to be shier and tended to avoid confrontation/directness, even after Izuna died. Despite his uneven morality, even when revived did he himself state the belief that he wouldn’t seriously fight a child due to how unequal it would’ve been. Even during the war, in his interactions with Sasuke he wasn’t proactive in fighting him, it took him a long time to fatally wound him after offering an alliance and it seemed to be as a last resort. Does this mean he’s entirely gentle? Not at all. Despite the fact that he saved Obito as a child, or that he wanted to save the world from despair, at the same time, he’s the reason Rin died and can kill thousands of people without second thought (bonus addition that his name itself can start wars, as a testament to his power in a negative light); he also stole Sharingan without remorse (threatening to take Obito’s), and did it to Kakashi during the war and threatened Sasuke with Sharingan theft, too.

Outside of the extremes Madara embodies in canon, one thing that is a fulcrum of his character in The Maiden is the fact that he’s grieving. The reason for this was established early on, but Madara was never made aware of the fact that the Uchiha were massacred, or that he was halfway responsible for it. When he first met Sakura, he makes it plain that he believed the Uchiha were killed off like the Senju, mostly from the Shinobi World Wars that killed thousands over the decades. When he discovers the truth, it crushes him; he wanted nothing more than to protect the Uchiha, even when he couldn’t. Especially since Obito, the boy he mentally and spiritually destroyed to gain a pawn, was half-way responsible for the Uchiha massacre. Of which makes it Madara’s fault, not even considering how those still loyal to Madara’s ideals wanted to start a coup that implicated them by Danzo.

In this happening, his grief is compounded by the fact that WOYY Madara saw himself as dead when Hashirama killed him them first time. Like a ghost returned to his own corpse, he shut down his humanity to enact the Tsuki no Me/Eye of the Moon Plan. When he meets Sakura, after learning the truth of the Uchiha, that grief is the start of his spiral back into humanity through his vulnerability. And Sakura plays a huge part in guiding it along, both intentionally and not, over the course of the year they work together to begin exposing the Uchiha Massacre and other dark crimes Danzo facilitated.

A phrase I think suits their interactions the most is that Sakura very much puts her foot down, but keeps her fists up with Madara. Despite the fact that Madara is deeply depressed and in a state of mourning over the Uchiha, she’s not his doormat, nor is she there to perform emotional labor to help him cope even if it does play into their growing relationship.

To put it simply, it’s Sakura’s presence at the start of Madara’s fall back into humanity that makes him fall for her (even if it takes a lot time); it’s her place throughout its reawakening that steadies and develops it. More than that, in sacrificing everything to clear the Uchiha’s name and their reviled status in the world (which is what Sakura continued for Sasuke when he had that hope snuffed out by the end of his final battle with Naruto at the start of The Maiden), he grew to know her as someone who didn’t blindly worship the Leaf and wanted to set things right (as blind love of Konoha earned Madara’s hatred, like with Hashirama). In this happening, he grew to trust Sakura. And in trusting her with both his humanity, his clan, and faith to make Konoha atone, it allowed his heart to open and for feelings to enter through their times together.

I know it’s a popular Uchiha fanon that they tend to be powersexual and fall for people who can beat them up, but for WOYY Madara, this couldn’t be further from the truth. If anything, people more powerful than him earn Madara’s hatred because it taps into a feeling of insecurity in his own abilities he hates feeling. Even with Gai--the only other person besides Hashirama who has the power to kill him--and the enthusiasm Gai earned from Madara, he would likely hate him if they ever came to interact due to how much of a Leaf patriot Gai is. Hell, the reason Madara fell for Hashirama was because he trusted Hashirama with their dream and, more than that, he trusted Hashirama with his clan despite his faith not being ironclad. Before the cracks showed, that consideration for his clan is what made Madara fall for Hashirama, and it was the same with Sakura.

Although Sakura does become much more powerful in The Maiden--and will continue to grow exponentially into The Mother--he doesn’t care about her power at all. It’s the trust she earned, the sanctity of the Uchiha to Madara she honored and fought to salvage, and his vulnerable humanity she was there throughout to foster and protect (even unknowingly) that earned Sakura his heart.

As for Sakura, what made her fall for Madara was the fact that she was saving him when she couldn’t save Sasuke, as the want to save Sasuke made Sakura fall in love with him in the manga. It was the same case with Naruto, too. Even if it wasn’t her intention, nor does the plot revolve around Sakura saving Madara, it happened and she fell in love with him. She fell for his vulnerability, for his heart, for his humanity that showed him who he really was. She fell in love with who he really was as someone there for her throughout her trials and one of the hardest journeys she’d taken to date.

In The Maiden, Sakura fell to her lowest point in doing what she did almost entirely solo with its success riding on her shoulders alone. But, like Hashirama, Madara was a light for her. Even though he was difficult at times, she stood up for herself and shut conflict down, especially when it was inappropriate (like Madara haranguing her for her dual feelings for Hashirama as much as him).

With her foot down and fists up, it’s more or less the story of how Madasaku came to be in the WOYY.

#sakura haruno #haruno sakura #madara uchiha #pro sakura #madasaku #sakumada #my meta #the way of yin & yang #if this ship isn't your thing pls move on thank #sorry for the length i just HAD TO ramble #i have so many thoughts on them holy shit #esp since post-canon madasaku is such a dicey area to explore #but damn is it fun

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lidiacervos · 2 years

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The thing is that if Azriel had given up really because of Elain, it would've happened way earlier on.

El/riel met in acomaf! In acowar El/riel grew a little, but from Acomaf to Acofas we literally see him pining after Mor. The reason why it became less pining in Acosf is because Mor wasn't much around! He still reacted when Helion mentioned Mor.

With "given up" it wasn't a hint for Azriel having moved on from Mor to Elain. It wasn't a fricking hint for El/riel. It was more so telling us that he's tired of pining and of feeling like sh*t everytime she avoids him. Cassian found that good because this male has been trying for literally 500 years and he doesn't find it healthy for him. That makes much more sense- I too would have find it good if my brother gave up in trying and waiting for someone who will never be his. Who will never chose him. All the wait going to waste.

So it's ridiculous to say that he had given up only because of Elain. If so, it would have at least happened in acowar. Keep in mind that it's been 2.5 years!

Another thing what I find ridiculous is that El/riels claim Azriel and Elain are in love or that at least Azriel is and I'm just... wtf?!?!

I heard from some of them that El/riel has the friends to lovers trope..

literally from where did you get that? Are we reading the same books or do you mean the off page chemistry between El/riel? It all freaking happened off page. If you haven't noticed, Sarah doesn't let her characters fall in love off page unless they are side characters who don't get to have their own book (like Vamren). Feysand, Rowaelin and Bryathalar aside- haven't we all witnessed the romance with Elorcan? Chaolryne? Lysaedion? Nestarq? Manorian? Nessian?

Heck even Feylin, Samlaena, Chaolaena and Dorlaena! Don't you all remember how their love stories went? From the start til the end.

But I tell you what- Chaol and Nesryn's story would have been weak cause they didn't have any big romantic moments except for the end at least in QOS. So his book would have been about Nesryn and Chaol just debatting in their heads wether or not to confess that they are in love... with angst here and there... the whole time?That could be one of the reasons Sarah didn't make Chaolsryn endgame.

If Azriel and Elain were to already have such strong feelings then it really would be them taking their gods long time til the end to finally confess.

They claim that Gwynriel is boring... well everyone has their own oponions, but at least we would get to see Gwyn and Azriel falling in love. The actual 'friends to lovers' romance. We know damn well that there are not in love, nor have any deep feelings for each other yet, but there is big potential unlike El/riel, where we would just see them banging secretly until they finally confess and Elain rejects the mating bond to be with Azriel.

In every other book we would want to witness how the feelings change, how the POV of someone change, how distrust turns to trust, insults turn to compliments, No care turns to caring, dislike turns to like and it changes more and more. We all want to see the shift and authors do just. It's important to witness that love story and it goes with every love trope. Friends to lovers, enemies to lovers, forbidden love etc.

Elain gets her own book, which means she will become a main character. To want to have her already in love with her love interest before her journey has even started is.. well everyone is entilted to their own oponions, but I would rather much experience the whole love story and not just the half of it. I don't read only the half of a book. I need to know where it's started! What happened back then?! El/riel just met, had some moments here and there and boom- they are in love...? Again, don't forget that acosf takes place after the war 2 years ago and nothing between Elain and Azriel has changed.. they want to convience me that they are already in love?!

Yes, you’re right, for all of this time that e/riel was supposedly “falling in love” Az was still fixated on Mor and Elain on Graysen.

“Given up” is also quite different than having resolved feelings and being ready to move on with Elain in a healthy manor. Az’s feelings for Mor are not something that is just suddenly over with, they still need to be worked through, which is why Rhys asking about Mor in the bonus chapter was so important

It’s funny because if they’re already in love and Elain is happy in the NC, the turmoil needed for her story would come from…breaking the bond & fOrBidDeN LoVe? Things that heavily involve Lucien. That wouldn’t make for a very epic romance for e/riel if they’ve got a third wheel they’re trying to get rid of half the book.

I think Azriel has no clue what love is and it’s going to absolutely knock him on his ass once he is actually in love

I agree, a gwynriel book seems way more exciting. They would challenge each other, work together as equals and I expect falling in love with Gwyn will be completely unexpected for Azriel. Elain and Azriel would just be them sneaking around and enabling each other to avoid their problems(their real problems, not the problem that they want to bang each other)

#asks #anti e/riel #antielriel #long post

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dangermousie · 2 years

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Some more CFC thoughts after 203

I was chatting with @vierran45 trying to understand why I, who used to rage about and at He Yu so much in 50s-70s and even more recently, read the appalling stuff in 203 and just went “huh.” I felt no anger or disgust or really much of anything towards He Yu, not really. And it occurred to me, it is because I am done with him. I don’t mean it in a flounce away in high dudgeon kind of way, I mean I have ceased to have emotional investment in him as a character.

I can only rant and rage about a character if I care for them or I have hope for them, or find them relatable, or whatever. As the saying goes, the opposite of love is not hate, it’s indifference. In those early chapters, I wanted to smack the hell out of HY but I was invested in seeing how he would grow, what would happen to make me like him. Now I am just eh - whatever, good luck. Or bad luck. Or medium luck, whatever floats your watersports boat. It’s sort of like Hua Binan in 2ha - I found him an endlessly fascinating character and metaed about him a lot, but I never raged about him or had much of any emotional reaction about him - I just didn’t care enough. It’s been over 200 chapters and I am just kinda tired with yo yo of progress regress and like - reform for XQC’s sake (since Meatbun said they are the endgame; XQC must have been a serial killer in his past life to get the kind of life and partner he has, poor man) or don’t reform - it’s interesting either way I suppose but no emotional capital is gonna be spent by me either way. I don’t even yearn for his punishment because (a) I know that’s futile since we are promised “HE” for a value of that and (b) what is even the point, can’t undo anything anyway.

The thing is, it has also made me care much less for XQC outside of the sympathy I’d have for anyone abused. Because per Meatbun, since it’s a happy ending, he will take He Yu back and people do crazier things every day but that is so alien to me, I can neither relate to nor understand that and when that happens, my interest diminishes.

Once again, as I was telling @vierran45, I am sure He Yu has been Manchurian Candidated by the evil org. But a problem remains - regardless of how much volition he has over his current actions, he still performed them. How, in any real world scenario, can XQC ever get past that? It makes zero sense and makes me feel resentful that I will be expected to be good with that (aha, finally an emotion! Even if not towards HY but the narrative.) I love Meatbun because her characters feel real to me and have real reactions I can get but this breaks my particular suspension of disbelief hard.

“But 2ha!” you may say. “Chu Wanning forgave Mo Ran for Taxian Jun 0.5 and it’s your favorite web novel of all time!” True, but to me this hits different and not just because my baselines for acceptable actions within a period fantasy and a modern day setting are different. There is the remove of this being a past life of sorts for both of them, even with memories merging. There is the fact that it was years and years after the end of 0.5 timeline that Mo Ran and CWN spent together without violence and abuse and gradual relationship building with CWN with no knowledge/memories of 0.5 timeline. He only found out after they were a couple - happy healthy and loving - and he had proof of all those years as Mo Ran’s teacher and months as his lover to see it was the past.Nothing like that is here - it is not the past and there is no luxury of close to a decade and a lot of development of distance from this possible - we are over 200 chapters in! Yes, yes, yes, I am sure HY will snap out of whatever is warping him and will feel very terrible and might possibly risk his life for the good guys and XQC will find out he was controlled and forgive him blah blah but it breaks my suspension of disbelief and any sort of connection to a character to think he can do so without PTSD and serious therapy and even then - and it would take time and a lot of chapters and I am not sure we can get there after 200 chapters already passed. Ultimately, it comes down to the fact that “I didn’t mean to do it” doesn’t do much for the person you did it to. Sure, it’s better than if you meant it, but the damage is still there, still present.

And instead of seeing a character growth arc for HY, we had some growth but nowhere near enough, then massive regression (probably due to meddling) and then he will snap out of it and wallow but how much actual growth can he even accomplish in the remaining whatever chapters unless it’s gonna be a 500 chapter monster?

Meatbun clearly has an epic forced seduction kink. (I refer to it that way instead of noncon because she seems to be fond of this particular subset of noncon only - someone made to feel pleasure against their will.) The danger of writing that for your couples as opposed to just having it be a kink in a prn story with no plot is that it’s a very hard balancing act to both satisfy that kink and make the readers believe this is a couple that can work long term and should work long term. That is why “we are both drugged and would die if we don’t bang” is such a popular scenario in this case - it removes some of the tension and makes characters equal. But Meatbun doesn’t go for that because she likes to work without a safety net. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t.

So I am left with a novel I enjoy, characters I find interesting and a plot that is complicated in a delicious fashion but a lack of emotional connection to the mains that I normally expect from other authors but not Meatbun. To be frank, if the writer was anyone but Meatbun, I’d give up on this novel in terms of it being ever able to drag me back emotionally in some fashion but with her you never know.

#cnovel #meatbun doesn't eat meat #case file compendium

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petalsmooth · 2 years

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FYI Barchie’s...

No, Betty and Archie were NOT slowburn. They writers DID want barchie, the audience didn’t. RAS always wanted to “go there” but the popularity of Bughead meant they were “endgame” and the show reiterated as much after they realized how badly the cheating arc went over with the audience exodus in tweets from their official accounts. Brian even references how they had an idea of endgame... only makes it sound like an early show thought vs 4-5 year plan. RAS admitted they had Bughead/Varchie as endgame. This was never Barchie slow burn and Brian is deceptive for presenting that as means of CYA.

What we have here is Brian retconning what happened because a) bughead’s (real ones) are not coming back and they have accepted their damage control after 4-17 was never going to undo what was done.

b) Lili was completely unprofessional after the breakup and continues to be and Cole no longer wishes (nor should he have to) to live with it on set.

So rather than being honest and admit personal lives and a bad story arc negated Bughead as a possibility, he tries to save face and claim Barchie was always going to be endgame. It wasn’t. Hell, RAS didn’t even seem that enthused by the reality of Barchie last time he interviewed. Reality of them imo is not what he built up on his mind...but that is just my perception of the way he spoke of them in that last interview.

This doesn’t mean I want Bughead reunited. They ruined them. They ruined Betty. I want Jughead and Tabi and they are by far the only couple being presented as healthy and strong by everyone who speaks of them.

It just means I’m not one for the writer’s trying to retcon history to save face over bad narrative choices or cover for one actor’s immaturity on set.

I will note to Lili stan’s that this also proves what I said...because they accept they cannot recover the losses in audience due to their narrative...don’t give a damn anymore and will do what they want. And what they WANT, despite what your racist rants would have, is JABITHA.

I don’t really get a firm consensus they are at all settled in agreeing about any other couple.

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serpentsapple · 3 years

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Hello have you read the Ember in the Ashes series? I'm struck by how much people are upset with Helene's ending. It seems some really only accept "happily ever after" in one way and that's ending up in a relationship, regardless of whether that romance is particularly healthy or good. Like I get toxic relationships ending in HEA in Romance books, but this series puts so much emphasis on realism with regards to violence, so why shouldn't it with this?

Hello! Apologies for the delay in response to this! I am afraid neither of us have read this series, but what you allude to isn't a surprise to me, I'm afraid. I've come to learn that a lot of people approach media through the lens of shipping, which isn't inherently bad, mind you, but it means that this takes precedence over the plot, themes and even characterisation present in the story. All that matters to them is having their ship be "canon" and "endgame", and they'll often evaluate the quality of a story in terms of how well it serviced the ship.

Where this becomes insidious is how it often overlaps with women's narratives. Many people only speak up on behalf of a female character's agency (or, indeed, only care about her agency) when it comes to romantic entanglements with their chosen male love interest for her. (This becomes especially apparent when there are multiple suitors vying for her hand.) They'll analyse her story through that filter alone so that any of her choices surrounding him forms the basis for how much "agency" they view her having. If she chooses to walk away from him then, or choose another man, the author will be decried for being a misogynist, for hating women and female fantasies, (of hating her very character, in fact, and having given her a terrible ending even though it is objectively good for her).

The character in question could also be accused of having her agency hindered or being abused/constricted even though she is clearly exercising her free will in making a choice. But because it's not the choice shippers want her to make, it renders her agency invalid to them. Or, in contrast, in cases where a male character is clearly constricting the agency of a female character, this can become concealed to them because they cannot or do not want to confront any discomfort surrounding the dynamic lest they cede that perhaps he is not the optimal choice she should be making.

Sadly, lot of people still have trouble viewing female characters as separate entities from the men around them, and I cannot deny that media itself does little to discourage this. However, that does not, in my opinion, absolve us from looking critically within ourselves at where our grievances are truly coming from. Are you really approaching the story with a good faith criticism and to crusade against misogyny, or is there a more latent drive that you are not accounting for?

Do be aware that my intent is not to shame shippers, nor do I think the pursuit of shipping "taints" fandom, but I honestly think being so invested in your ship to the detriment of looking at the text as a whole can only weaken the experience of reading and engaging with a story, as well as having a healthy debate with others surrounding it. This goes just as much for anti-shippers, of course, perhaps I would argue even more so for them. In the end, on both sides, we must remain vigilant to the fact that in order to critique a text we must be approaching it (mostly) impartial and unbiased and taking the story as a whole, even if it means factoring for dynamics you do not care for and choices you do not enjoy.

#ask #an ember in the ashes #mod c

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elizabethrobertajones · 3 years

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Did Bobo really create the Wayward Sisters? If so, why weren't Jack and especially Cas included in that episode? That's my biggest issue with that pilot honestly, I mean, the fact that the show abandoned Claire and Cas' bond after season 10 and gave that storyline to Salmondean. Her bond with Cas is more interesting because of their connection to the Novaks. I also think that Claire and Jack would've made a more engaging dynamic and spin off together, I think they're strong characters & actors

Hi there!

Bobo isn’t the “creator” of Wayward so much as it can even have one, as it was a very organic idea, which even involved a healthy amount of fandom input. The original campaign in season 10 was for Wayward Daughters, and the idea picked up so much steam the altered title for, I guess, a mix of copyright and thematic relevance was the Sisters one. I’d say 10x08 was the real genesis of it as something that could be really solid. Once Kim and Briana were put together the chemistry and star power they could have had together was really meteoric as far as our small SPN world was concerned. Phil Sgriccia directed 9x13 and wrote 10x08 and was more of the parent of Wayward than any specific writer in that sense. Jody and Claire were pretty much common property of the show by that point. Claire was really introduced again in relation to plotlines and questions about Cas and less to do with them really going out of their way to re-launch her. I think they’d have been much cornier about it from the start and while YA protagonist diary writing her way through the end of Wayward Sisters was cute, it’s the sort of cutesy that really has to be earned. If she STARTED that way, like maybe me and 3 friends would be stanning her and everyone else would be revolted :P

(I am a YA fantasy novel author, but I do think everyone should make room in their hearts for this level of cheese)

In any case, Bobo just threw his hat into an already crowded ring with Alex, but obviously loving the characters and having his own personal wayward child to contribute did help elevate him to the prospective showrunner seat, but also all the other writers who’d written these characters except Dabb had left at that point. If Bobo was going to shepherd them through to their new show, he’d be the legacy writer, even though he was a new baby writer in the season Donna was introduced... Attrition aside, he did genuinely write them very well, loved their stories and was great with writing Jody when he could get her, so he would also have been a good choice even if all the others were left still...

But anyway. Season 10′s subplot for Cas was about Claire and learning some stuff about himself along the way, but she was used very much for his personal development and for Dean as well, being a mini Dean herself in a season where he had lost a lot of his sense of self. It’s a total accident of scheduling but Angel Heart (10x20) being the last episode before 10x22 is a nice touch in that regard. And while Cas tried really hard with Claire and awoke his inner Dad side so that he’d be more prepared for fatherhood next time, it was pretty insurmountable between them to have anything more than a bittersweet relationship where the best he could do was make up with her and see her somewhere safe. The fact of him looking like her actual dead father is horrendous the more you think about it and while she managed to see him for who he was instead of a horrible monster, that’s more than enough trauma to inflict on an already traumatised girl for the sake of helping Cas’s manpain and tidying up the sticky question of Jimmy and Cas’s right to the vessel.

Angel Heart very specifically ends with TFW mailing Claire to Jody because they know she’s already good with Alex in a genuine way and can handle these sort of issues and has done it before. And also because she can be a guardian who will not constantly remind Claire that her father is dead but something is walking around wearing a perfect reconstruction of his face. Carver era did a few things here and there with bodily autonomy and the problem of angel and demon vessels, but it was also really hit and miss. They’d get random waves of feeling guilty about it but then by necessity go back to stabbing angels in their still-living vessels an episode later. Claire was a way to address at the very least that whatever Cas was being put through was only a punishment on Cas and not on Jimmy as well, which is probably why we got such sappy Heaven scenes. We NEEDED to be shown he was in Heaven and largely okay with what was going on so that the show could justify using Cas at all as a character without breaking the code of ethics they tried to make their own characters adhere to. Aside from that it also gave Cas a side plot for when he wasn’t needed in the main plot, and any emotional connection to anything that wasn’t Sam and Dean.

Anyway 10x20 caused this huge fandom high which was followed by one of the lowest lows of the fandom immediately after, and both centred on female characters (in fact, now we know, 2 lesbians even! Though I’d wonder if, The Gay Agenda aside, Bobo spite-wrote that specifically because of the roots of Wayward) and I think that galvanised the whole movement of fans and hopefully some self-reflection in the show. They DID start making an effort in season 11, which shows some of the early signs of better inclusion but also backtracking or edging nervously away from the more intense Carver era stuff. Not just because Dean didn’t have the Mark any more but in general it was like someone had opened a window and let in some fresh air... Even before Carver bailed somewhere around the midseason to go do a different show and Dabb started to step up.

All this to say that the Wayward stuff was always about the female characters and making up for the past sins of the show. It’s even a riff on the “wayward son” line which obviously centres around male protagonists and their journey. Claire stumbled into being a part of it in the lucky way of being in the right place and time, but the journey had already started even in the season 10 momentum with earlier work and it was that which suddenly made the prospect that Jody had two young women living with her now seem like a starter for the next generation of the show as it was a mirrored format to season 1 in a way, if you took Alex and Claire as the new Sam and Dean. It was exciting but people flipped out after Angel Heart because stuff had been bubbling since season 9 and earlier in season 10, so this was just pouring more candy into an already visibly full bowl of potential tasty gems. It made a possibility seem real that hadn’t before because we already had Kim bitterly complaining that the CW refused to hear the case for a Jody spin off because she was too old. The next best thing was a Jody spin off where she was the Gandalf to some CW age appropriate characters.

(the CW is and always has been garbage)

Anyway in season 13 Jack was introduced as a Claire 2.0 but as a male character with staying power for that reason, but he was filling the space she left for Cas. He couldn’t be a father to her and neither really wanted that set up anyway. But thematically it had created the possibility of Dadstiel and the space he had in his heart for that. Since the show was in its waning years they would be looking for endgame and handing Cas an easy win with a son he could unconditionally love who would love him back unconditionally absolutely filled that gap. It was a non SamnDean thing that Cas could have for himself outside of whatever happened with them. Not sure the memo came back that he was supposed to have mORE than that but oh well it’s not real if you don’t watch it :))) But yeah Jack was always going to be linked to Cas’s endgame, he wasn’t a free-floating character such as Jody who could go where she wanted and do as she pleased. He was main story relevant from start to finish and tied inexorably to another main character’s fate. Because the show wouldn’t do that with its female characters they could be bundled into spin offs but in practical terms Jack was both never what the Wayward as envisioned by fans or writers was about, nor would he have been free to go.

Since it would have been about centering the stories of people overlooked by the main story, Claire a case in point that she had her life ruined in season 4 and it was a footnote until season ten, and then metaphorically more the concept of having queer and non-white characters in the mix of main characters, it would have represented a future of the story where the main show was unable to tread. Probably because of the CW. Also inherent biases in the writers. Bad cocktail. Jack is both too white and too male to fit the brief to ever leave SPN, and not only that but he is so as a precise mirror to the main white male characters, being passably any one of their sons if you squint, and meant to be instantly instinctively read as such... he was one of the safest bets of representing the show as the network wanted to imagine its target demographic.

So I really don’t think that Jack has any place being in a spin off of the show unless you want more of the same. They tried to give us something different and the CW didn’t like it because it wasn’t more of the same. Ironically a Jack spin off, with or without Claire, would have more chance of being greenlit and more chance of success. But the spin off they put their heart behind was Wayward Sisters as it was. And I think it was absolutely correct that never mind leaving Jack out of it after his work was done in the lead up episode to help set the table, but honestly they could have cut all the middle scenes of Sam and Dean wandering in the woods and gained precious seconds with the girls and still had a functioning story with those guys. It was like some cowardly missive was sent that the show couldn’t actually go more than 10 minutes without showing a flesh and blood Winchester or the whole thing would spontaneously sizzle out of syndication and the money tree would wither on the spot. And in the mean time, we could have been having Banter with the girls. Or Claire and Kaia holding hands some more. The good stuff :P

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taraolssons · 4 years

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dani isn’t an abuser. neither is he a manipulator, creepy stalker, nor an unforgivable piece of shit for that matter.

but what he undeniably did do though, is make amira uncomfortable even after she set her boundaries with him in a clear and succinct manner. yes, amira WANTS to kiss dani, but the point is that she WONT. doesn’t matter why, whether it’s because of the way she practices her faith or if it’s just a personal preference of hers, that’s the decision she made for herself.

and you know what? i understand that dani finds it difficult to be in a relationship without physical contact in any form because he’s not used to that sort of thing. but that does not justify him speaking to amira in that tone yesterday, expecting to be praised somehow for his effort, implying that kissing is ‘normal’ and consequently making her feel insecure about her choices, or continuing to question her decisions, all AFTER he initially said that lack of physical intimacy is no problem for him.

if dani really wanted to communicate his frustration to amira, maybe do that by having a real conversation with her, not being a dick to her and yelling out to people on the street, asking who’d want to date her. that’s straight up disrespectful and i’d honestly be appalled if someone talked to me that way.

skam characters aren’t supposed to be perfect and do all the perfect things all the time, yes. but this is also how you engage with the show? a character does not-so-nice things, they get criticism. this criticism isn’t directed at the show as a whole, to all the people that might resemble said character, or worse, to you personally. is there a chance that dani makes up for what he did yesterday and danmira end up as a healthy endgame couple? i’m a little sceptical because there’s only a few episodes left, but sure, why not. until then though, people are uncomfortable with many of the things he’s said, and their criticism is valid.

(also, people need to stop making this a white vs. people of colour thing, i’m getting tired of it. stop saying shit like it’s only performative wOkE white people who are anti danmira, or otoh that all people of colour hate the ship. there’s both kinds of people on both sides, and that’s the truth.)

rant that-didn’t-actually-make-any-significant-points over.

#skam españa #will probably delete this soon because idek what i'm saying #i literally hate all sides of this argument at this point

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juniorgman187 · 3 years

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Why I Think the “Friends-To-Lovers” Trope in Television is Always Doomed to Fail

DISCLAIMER: The points I’m about to make are 100% opinion-based. So even if you do not agree with me, that doesn’t mean I’m wrong, nor does that give you the right to bash me for having these opinions. Feel free to comment with your differing perspective, but only if you’ll respect mine.

A) As stated in the title, I will only be referring to TV Shows because movies with the “Friends-to-lovers” trope perform far better since writers have to write the plot with intention. If they want friends to end up together, they have to plan for that to happen before the end of the movie. Whereas TV Shows run over the course of several episodes, allowing them more freedom to experiment with the plot. B) I will be speaking generally, so for those people that like to chime in about those once-in-a-blue-moon exceptions to this theory, just know - I know there’s exceptions and I’ve included them at the end of this post.

Most canon couples who start out as friends falls flat for me and here’s why:

1. Neither character can have a better romantic connection with someone other than the ‘friend’ you intend to set them up with.

Right off the bat, an example of this would be Caroline, Klaus, and Stefan. As someone who somehow managed to evade spoilers while watching TVD, I had no idea Caroline and Stefan were going to end up together. And honestly, when it became clear Steroline was endgame as opposed to Klaroline, I was disappointed.

Speaking more generally, having an undeniably better third party in the picture is kryptonite to the “Friends-To-Lovers” storyline that the writers try to push. Inevitably, that third person who had more chemistry, character growth, etc. with one of the ‘friends’ will cause a “The One That Got Away” situation. The fandom will always seek fulfillment in that un-pursued relationship because ‘the relationship that never was’ - especially if it was the better relationship - will always be more alluring than ‘the relationship that was but never should have been.’

2. You can’t just spring a love confession on viewers and expect them to like it if there was so much character growth that happened BECAUSE the two didn’t end up together initially.

Cough cough - CRIMINAL MINDS. Cough cough - HOW I MET YOUR MOTHER.

Two prime examples of how sometimes characters are better off as just friends. What’s worse is that in both instances, the characters involved had moved on and were better for it. But the minute the writers drudged up the past, it literally nullified any growth and development that took place since the uncoupling.

Maybe I’ll consider giving Criminal Minds a pass considering they never truly did follow up on that ‘date’ between Spencer and JJ until LIKE 13 SEASONS LATER, but what I said still stands. If there was something that happened between Spencer and JJ at the football game - it’s evident she moved on from it as she went on to marry Will and even started a family with him. AND GUESS WHAT? She became a more well-rounded character because of the introduction of a separate love interest! But noooOO! The CM writers just had to have their cake and eat it too. They’re all out here bringing up some old ass ‘romance,’ if it can even be considered that, to rile up the fandom and keep them interested.

In my opinion, JJ confessing she’s always loved Reid, really turned me off from her character in that moment. Not that I didn’t still love her, but I actually found myself appalled that out of everything she could’ve said - that’s what she chose to admit. And look where that love confession the writers sprung on us got them! The friendship between Spencer and JJ was tainted with this confusion of “Where the f did that come from?” and “Was that really necessary?” SPOILER ALERT: IT CAME OUT OF NOWHERE AND IT WASN’T.

Don’t even get me started on Ted in HIMYM. I mean, gosh that show falls into a whole other category in and of itself. It managed to plunge head-first right into BOTH of the pitfalls I’ve mentioned thus far. Barney and Robin made for a far better pairing than Ted and Robin, therefore falling under Pitfall 1. And Ted having done so much growth after being with Robin, falls under Pitfall 2.

3. Not every soulmate you have in your life is romantic. Arguably the best soulmates are platonic ones.

Call me a cynic, but I hate hate HATE when there are two good friends and writers see that as an opportunity to make them a couple. While it’s evident the two friends love each other, that doesn’t mean they should just suddenly be in love with each other. Not every pairing with a healthy dynamic should be together. I see being friends as a relationship that’s more valuable to air on TV than a forced romantic one. Of course that doesn’t necessarily draw in more fans or garner more interest, but consider the TV characters that didn’t succumb to forced romanticism.

Penelope and Derek in CM. Bonnie and Damon in TVD. And Pheobe and Joey in Friends.

Each person and their counterpart were shown to have great growth and/or stability in their friendship over the course of the show. They all had great chemistry. They had great moments. They had great lessons. And the best part was that their love for each other never became romantic. Friendship, in my mind, is so much more important than romance. Taking a pure platonic friendship and forcing it to become romantic is the #1 easiest way to ruin the one good thing you got going for you, writers. It’s the same energy as when a close friend, whose friendship you value so much, goes and says they like you. It just ruins the vibe, man.

ANNNND just for funzies, here are the canon-consistent “Friends-To-Lovers” in TV Shows that I actually did like and think did it right.

Hyde and Jackie (That 70s Show)

Monica and Chandler (Friends)

Nick and Jess (New Girl)

Yep. That’s about it.

#opinions no one asked for #why the friends to lovers trope on tv sucks #criminal minds #the vampire diaries #how i met your mother #friends #new girl

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