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scintillyyy · 4 months

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a view at perceptions of dick's economic situation at the circus through the years

alright, we start at detective comics #38, the OG introduction. and, nothing is really said either way about what dick's economic station would have been, because really, the only thing it's there to tell us is that dick is an acrobat--which gives him the skills needed to fight crime by batman's side.

of absolute note to me, though, is the fact that his family was famous for their triple spin & what that potentially means for his upbringing. because, if you've been following this journey with me, means a lot. because we have a real life example of that to compare to get an idea of what may have been his childhood. i am of course, talking about the flying concellos && i did find another one and that would be the flying codonas (alfredo codona being the first man to land a triple somersault).

now, let's be clear--dick being the son of famed circus trapeze artists, especially ones who could land a triple, in 1940, means that he grew up the son of stars. they would have been center ring performers, and likely had amenities and pay that reflected that. now i won't deny that as circus performers they were likely 'othered'--there was likely a prejudice against what they perceived circus folk to be, but that does not likely completely reflect the actuality of what they may have had access to as a result of being entertainment stars. because they were othered--but at the same time, if they were famous enough for their skills, they were definitely adjacent to the rich and famous, not just poor, exploited workers. there was a lot of overlap between famous acts, longstanding families, and ownership. after doing...a lot...of reading on the most famous circus stars of the era of the 1920s & 1930s (especially alfredo cordona + his eventual wife lillian leitzel and the flying concellos), i think i've determined a couple of things:

one, these circus stars feel very akin to movie stars wrt their fame. and they were messy as hell. lillian leitzel in particular was a prima donna--she was the first circus star who was able to catapult her worth into luxuries. she was the first star to ever get her own private train car and personal dressing tent and was known to be the prima donna of the circus. she was also known for her temper--her personal maid would sometimes get fired and rehired several times a day. when she married alfredo cordona between acts in chicago, it was considered the royal wedding of the circus world. may wirth, a trick rider, was frequently in the gossip column of newspapers & had many, many admirers. lillian leitzel was voted the most beautiful woman in the world by american soldiers in wwi. like, these people were stars in every sense of the word.

two, these performers were not just meek, exploited poor people. with the right skills, they had power, they had ambition & they had money. they were center stage performers. arthur concello was huge in investing in and modernizing the circus--likely because of the money he made through the years of performing his act.

so frankly detective comics #28, and later batman #32, doesn't really delve into what dick's life experiences may have been on the circus--because that's not the point. the only thing those are their to do is establish dick as an orphan & and acrobat, and thereby skilled and motivated enough to work at batman's side.

but based on the era in which he was created and in comparison to similar acts of the time, it's easy to take a gander. because john & mary being able to perform a triple would have been huge. they'd be center stage acts, high in hierarchy. with mary being a young, attractive woman who could perform a triple, she may have had plenty of admirers & been in the gossip columns of the newspaper. her wedding to john may have been a whole thing to circus fans. i read a lot about those types of acts being invited to perform and star in european shows over the winters at old, respected circuses && they had enough international star power that they drew crowds there based on name alone. i know the impulse is to think that dick would have had no experience with the wealth of bruce's world, but conversely in that day and age and his parent's skillset it's highly likely he would have been exposed to the glitz & glamour of the famous high life. they may have been invited to do private performances for other rich & famous people & rubbed shoulders with them. alfredo cordona was in a few hollywood movies for his skills & arthur concello had connections to hollywood due to brokering the movie 'the greatest show'--is it out of the realm of possibility to believe that john would have had the same opportunities?

anyways, moving on. i find myself extremely intrigued by detective comics #484, which brings dick back to haly's circus. now there's some hilarity here in that dick has no clue if it's possibly the same haly's circus he and his parents worked for, and he meets linda--of the flying graysons! (get her ass for copyright infringement, dick). jk. linda is a very nice girl & it's just a stage name. dick confirms they were circle ring stars & says that haly's was the greatest show on earth (the ringling bros & barnum and bailey about to come for haly...)

now this issue is interesting because while it doesn't necessarily give us an idea of what dick's economic status would have been, it does establish that the flying graysons were famous enough that the evil stepfather conviced haly that by yoinking the name for his family they'd be able to draw in more customers based on name recognition alone & that the name would put him in the headlines/give him headliner credibility for his act and the circus to get sold to a bigger show & that he would be able to "ride the crest of the wave" and become very successful (and presumably rich). which definitely implies that the grayson name is worth something. now haly's circus is shown to be getting by with generous checks from bruce wayne, and i feel like here we start to get what i feel is a fairly consistent incongruency where haly's circus is often shown to be barely getting by (despite their full audiences), yet the flying graysons were famous.

so then on to secret origins #13, which has dick tell joey about his journey to robin, and...briefly goes into his childhood (he started performing with his family at 5), but again the focus is, as always on the acrobatic portion. there's an interesting opaqueness there about what his childhood was like. just acrobatics and loving parents. nothing is ever really suggested with regards to their fame, they're just vaguely famous & circus stars. nobody seems interested in interrogating that.

and then we get to year three & batman #436 and this is the first time we get any sort of nugget as to dick's potential economic status, and it's not bad? his dad references getting world series tickets and dick wants to go to a movie with harry so he can skip out on homework. the average price of movie tickets in the 70s (when this is implied to take place) adjusted for inflation would be equal to about ~11 dollars today and dick clearly doesn't seem to think this is a huge expenditure. i mean, i wouldn't say that they're rich here by any means (unlike the potential implications of his 1940 introduction), but they're clearly comfortable enough to afford small luxuries without worry. which, again, as a named, headlining act doesn't seem too out of the ordinary. as the headliners, they're probably making the most of all the acts, as they're the ones bringing in the crowd. mary is said to be a third generation circus performer, which. to me. implies some success, that the circus family continued on. a lot of the people i mentioned before were ostensibly part of circus families that continued the tradition as that's what they were raised in. alfredo was first brought on stage at 7 months. & i think the fact that dick was a part of a longstanding circus family that would have had deep ties not just to the community but also would have likely been very entwined and friendly with management due to the nature of a long work relationship together. there is a stability there that wouldn't necessarily be seen with. someone new, i guess?

anyways, honestly i feel like year three & later a lonely place of dying are really the stories that try not to stereotype circus life the most. there's no "wow circus people are so othered & weird", they're just normal people who work at a circus & are treated as such. even jack and janet stopping for a photo is treated like "let's show our son that these performers are just people like us under their costumes". which, honestly reads more like that time i was brought to a local haunted walk when i was like 7 and i was in tears because i was so scared and one of the performers took off their mask to show me he was just a normal guy underneath the costume.

devin grayson, of course, retcons this long-standing family history of his mother being part of a circus family in nightwing annual #1 and changes it to his father instead & is very, hm, married to the idea that circus workers are poor in her conceptualization of how she writes dick as evidenced by her interview in "dick grayson, boy wonder" where she says the following:

god. the racism. it's something. and now. i'll say i have no issue with the idea of clarifying dick as not necessarily white. i do have slight issue with the idea that because he was a circus performer, he was poor. because this is the first time someone i think has actually tried to take into account the childhood dick may have experienced, and she definitely inserted her own stereotypical biases into it. and is a bit at odds with how skilled, famous american circus workers who have his parents' skillset were treated back in the time of dick's conception. they traveled in the winter because they were stars and were invited to perform in prestigious european circuses due to their fame. i just. and i will point out that a lot of these famous circus performers were hot blooded and it had nothing to do with race and everything to do with the fact that they were stage divas. idk. obviously, conceptions of circus workers were likely not the greatest in the 90s. they were nowhere near what their fame was in their heyday. clowns were definitely starting to be seen as more creepy and by this point, circuses were far more criticized for their treatment of animals. but i feel like there's a bit of a leap here wrt devin grayson's assumptions of circus life because of the fact that they travel & doesn't do near enough justice to the worth of the skill of dick & dick's parents. because being able to perform a triple & a quadruple would have still been extremely rare and highly valued. so rare it wasn't performed until 1982 & can still hardly be achieved.

https://www.nytimes.com/1982/07/13/arts/a-quadruple-for-the-flying-miguel-vazquez.html

this article is a fascinating review of exactly how rare and dangerous it is. & hey, alfredo mention.

batman legends of the dark knight #100 seems to go along with this idea that a circus is a dirty and poor place.

and, like. okay so the graysons are still shown as an act important enough to have their own dressing/prep room, per usual, as expected for their skillset. haly's circus in modern day is usually shown in more modern comics to be a small traveling circus that's not doing...super well--at least in comparison to previously established show selling out lore, but the only thing i really take umbrage with here is that alfred describes it as decrepit. which. i feel like even if haly's is small and maybe not super profitable it should at least be shown as a well kept, nice place & the only reason for that is because if it was practically falling apart, there's no fucking way jack would have won the battle of 'let's bring our son tim to the circus' if it was falling apart. janet would have been out here on beyondthebump all 'help my DH wants to take our son to a circus and it's falling apart, located in a terrible part of town, and looks like it employs murderers, how do i tell him no?' and she would have been met with a chorus of 'stand ur ground girl, do NOT let him endager your baby like that!!'.

anyways, the new 52 also gives us almost nothing to go on either. dick's parents' trailer looks nice enough, indicating they do make enough money with their act to afford a semi nice trailer. john is an asshole, dick is out of character. lovely, thanks new 52. the secret origin is as least much better but does go into how the circus has no money--which, hm. doesn't really tell us anything re: the grayson's economic situation. the circus might be struggling and have to close down soon, but it doesn't mean a lot for what contracted rates they pay their acts. in fact, paying for an act as skilled as the graysons and not getting enough profit in return could be part of their money troubles.

and then finally we end with nightwing 82-83 by tom taylor, with the meili lin thing (and, while meili is nice enough, i must say i still don't like this whole thing because the point of zucco should not have been he had a longstanding grudge against the graysons, gdi-). which, again, all it confirms is that the grayson's were the star attractions and does nothing to interrogate what that might've been. it does focus a lot on the idea of they were free and happy, which. um. sometimes the focus on how happy people are is usually "despite the fact that they don't have x". then again i do feel like i will give tom taylor the fact that he also seemed to have just written the graysons as normal people, but he also doesn't seem interested in interrogating what dick being the son of the star act might have actually meant for him.

honestly, a lot of what i'm finding is that much like tim, dick's childhood is left frustatingly opaque--there's a lot of room for interpretation, honestly. it's not ever really said on paper if they struggled with money growing up. you have writers who have all but confirmed they wrote dick with the understanding that he grew up poor because he worked in a circus, but at the same time does ignore the fact that the grayson's had such a unique and special skillset that it's hard to say that makes sense. & is rooted in stereotypical biases. the only aspect of it that's ever considered is "dick's the son of the skilled, star performers and also has those skills ergo he has the skills to be a vigilante". they're cast in this light of famous & skilled!! but the circus they work for is poor and barely getting by, and you can only assume that because they worked for a poor circus dick was probably also living on the poverty line, wholly dependent on the success of the place they worked for because at times their wages were struggled to be paid (despite the fact that as a contract act, to underpay them would absolutely be a breach of contract). there's no confirmation or in-depth look at his childhood, only vague implications, throwaway lines & stereotypes. they want the grayson's to be probably the most skilled circus act in the world. they don't want to look at what that would realistically mean. because only the acrobatics is the important.

#anyways my deep dive into reading various versions of dick's origin really does show that dc doesn't really care #what his childhood experiences may have been #because they don't matter. only the acrobatics ever have #anyways i do think there's a lot of potential for dick to feel othered in his stories #his family would have been at the top of the hierarchy #he was used to fame but still was unable to fit in to bruce's world

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minzart · 1 month

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And just like that my sanity is gone

#telltale batman #batman the enemy within #john doe #telltale john doe #telltale harley quinn #telltale bruce wayne #batman #dc #john doe our bisexual disaster who will end in a divorce arc as the joker no matter what you do #DC comics

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myhyperfixationisiforgot · 9 months

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I maintain that the animated Harley Quinn show has the best understanding of the modern Joker. He's Batman's mortal enemy. His other half, the color to Batman's gloom. Joker literally PROPOSES to Batman at one point.

Sure, he's terrible and sadistic and he absolutely hurts and kills untold numbers of people but like. Not because he likes killing, but because everything else is part of their story, and this is how the story goes. He doesn't want to KILL people, he wants to fight Batman, and in this universe Batman wants to be the good guy.

As soon as Batman is gone, he's done. Over and out. Almost capable of a normal life (as much as you can in Gotham). Finds himself a girlfriend and kids in the suburb. Willing to do his ex a favor every now and again.

Anyways I'm just obsessed with a show where it's so obvious that the Joker isn't the antithesis to good, he's just the antithesis to Batman. They really said the Joker only exists because Batman wants him to, and then actually backed it up. Insanity.

#i dunno i just think that the idea that joker and batman are equally involved in picking the genre of their rivalry is fun #the idea that they're both so obsessed that no one else matters in their games is what batman and joker are supposed to be #like the joker doesn't care about harley but batman ALSO doesn't give a shit about harley. that's the whole thing.#heath ledger's joker is good but this dynamic just does it for me #the joker #batman #harley quinn animated series #joker #bruce wayne

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cephalog0d · 6 months

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Okay, but like. There's the whole joke about Bruce recruiting children to be his sidekicks, but honestly there's only really one that fits that.

And it's Jason. And the whole story there is, frankly, unhinged. Aaaaand then he died.

(I'm specifically talking about "first post-crisis origin stories" here because Jason and Dick, in particular, have both had multiple major retcons and revisions over the years, and some of them dramatically change how things happened.)

Like okay. Going backwards, you've got Duke who joined/led a whole Robin-based gang at a time when Bruce wasn't even Batman. You've got Damian and Cass, who were both literally born into the world of masks and capes and heroes and villains, so they weren't ever really not going to be part of it. Steph might have taken inspiration from previous heroes but she made her own identity and repeatedly refused to stop involving herself in the vigilante lifestyle. Tim, obviously, basically strong-armed Batman into letting him be Robin, despite Batman's protests.

Dick's a little more complicated just because there's so many versions, because that's what 80 years of comics and multiple universe reboots will do, and there's kind of a general trend that earlier pre-crisis versions were more of Batman being like "hello, child, would you like to be my sidekick" and later versions have leaned harder and harder into the idea that Dick was absolutely going to do this anyway, regardless of what Batman had to say about it. But even in the first post-crisis version, the flashback in Batman Year 3, Dick says he wants to find a way to keep people like that from hurting others again. When Alfred questions Bruce's offer to train him, Bruce says that Dick should learn to do things the right way if he's going to do it. It's not hard to extrapolate that, much like later versions of the origin story, Dick was going to get himself into this one way or another. (Batman (1940) #437)

And then there's Jason. Whose backstory has also had a lot of (sometimes major) revisions over the years (remember when his adoption was, like, some kind of Joker-originated long con? Fucken Nu52, man). But the original post-crisis version is pretty straightforward. Steals Batman's tires, gets caught and sent to Ma Gunn's Secret Criminal School, intervenes when Batman goes to investigate, immediately gets offered the chance to be Robin based entirely on that.

Which is itself kind of unhinged. That Bruce saw this kid who was living on his own stealing tires and went "Hey you would make a good Robin" as his very first instinct.

But if you've never read Jason's post-crisis origin, or it's been a while, it's honestly even more unhinged than that because that arc starts with Dick getting "fired" as Robin specifically for the reason that he got shot by Joker and Bruce freaked out about how the Robin identity has too many enemies and therefore Dick, a legal adult with approximately a decade of training and experience, should not use the identity anymore.

(And it's specifically about the Robin identity, in this version, because when Dick says he's not going to stop the crime fighting thing Bruce's response is basically "I know and I didn't expect you to". Honestly I could also say a lot about this version of the Robin/Nightwing transition vs. later ones and how this one definitely feels like the Heavy Hand of DC Editorial in the fact that they had no contact for so long afterwards, because the interaction really doesn't feel like it warrants that in this case compared to some later versions, but that's a whole other too-long ramble.) (Batman (1940) #408)

And then a few weeks later Bruce turns around and picks up a random kid, a literal child, and goes "Hey you would make a good Robin!"

And I think a lot about how fucking wild that is. And it's not like the people writing just didn't notice. Dick's big argument with Bruce when he finally comes back to Gotham and meets Jason isn't about the fact that Bruce took in another kid, or even necessarily about Dick feeling proprietary over the Robin identity, the thing he's angry about is that Bruce said it was too dangerous for him, an adult, someone who has trained with Batman for a decade and was already highly physically trained before that for his whole life, to be Robin, and now Bruce has turned around and painted that target onto some random new kid. He pushes, repeatedly, trying to get Bruce to justify himself and this absolutely irresponsible decision, and Bruce gives a lot of answers about how Jason was on a bad path and needed this outlet and eventually just admits that he missed having a partner. (Batman (1940) #416)

And like. Dick's right, is the thing. He is 1000% in the right in this argument. If he can't be Robin anymore because of the danger, how in the hell is it anything like a good idea to hand it over to someone way younger, way less trained, way less experienced, and expect that that wouldn't end in tragedy?

And then it did.

And yeah, Bruce, it is kinda a lot of your fault.

#And the punchline is Batman clearly should not get to choose his own sidekicks! Haha?#(Sorry this is a lot more serious than my usual Batfam shitposts it won't be a regular habit don't worry)#this is long and rambly but it's something i think about a lot #and it's on my mind extra because of an AU oneshot i'm working on finishing right now #and obviously there's eight kabillion versions of any given origin and reboots and retcons and they change drastically yadda yadda yadda #and also obviously there's always behind-the-scenes editorial choices and other factors when it comes to comics story events #story and character choices are frequently not just a matter of storytelling but of things like meeting editorial demand of What Must Happe #but just looking at the story as presented: the one time bruce specifically recruited someone as his sidekick that kid ended up dead for it #it does make narrative sense given this that bruce's reaction to most of the subsequent kids is initially 'go the fuck home and stop this'#and then only really yielding with the realization that they're totally going to do this shit anyway #jason todd #dick grayson #bruce wayne

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shahrwrites · 1 month

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I will never ever stop calling out Bruce for the abusive hypocrite that he is and here’s one of the many instances why:

**WARNING: the following contains spoilers for events Identity Crisis and Gotham War.**

Also, this is gonna be a lengthy read because I'm gonna elaborate on Identity Crisis a little first, so grab a snack, I guess? lol

A couple of days ago, I finished reading Identity Crisis, and a recent visit to twitter revealed to me that... it's not as well received as I had thought?? I mean, sure, it had its flaws, but most of the arguments I have read about it arises from a lack of a sufficient grip on the essence of the story.

One such argument being that "Jean only wanted to scare Sue, yet she brought a flame thrower with her." So did everyone collectively forget that she was institutionalized at the end of the story? Not to mention that she had a history of mental instability already, (Or so I've read about her) meaning she was mentally ill. She was very definitely lying through her teeth saying that she didn't mean to kill Sue.

Another was the leaguers being morally compromised because, 1) they altered Dr. Light's brain after he threatened to repeat everything he did to Sue and worse to their wives and family, and 2) Because they wiped away memories of a certain leaguer and kept what they did to Dr. Light a secret?

I don't know about you, but to me, that only shows that for the exception of one literal alien, they're all human at their core. They have flaws, they have fears, and they're not above making mistakes. For me, it painted what would be a bunch of one dimensional characters, in a more complex picture.

On another note, I understand that there may have been continuity errors, but honestly, what comic run doesn't have them? It's just become a feature of the comics over the years and given them a flexibility to explore new stories, ideas and themes.

Now, if Deathstroke was buffed up from fighting kids to one-man-up the League, if Firestorm died a little too randomly, you'll just have to excuse the poor writing in those respectives. This happens to the best of stories. At age ten, I found such ridiculous plot holes in Harry Potter of all stories it was seriously embarrassing.

Moving on,

Why did reading this comic specifically strike a nerve in me about Bruce and Jason in respect to the events of Gotham War? Because after what Dr. Light did to Sue and threatening the leaguers to do the same to their families, too, they made the choice to jumble his brains a little so as to stop such tragedy to ever befall again. Of course, Bruce wasn't there for the voting, but then he comes back when they're in the middle of transforming Light's personality. And this is what ensues:

* Identity crisis (2016)

Say what you wanna say, it was more about Batman's authority than anything else or whatever. But don't you think Bruce would have stopped it and lashed out, either way? Well, I do. Because so many times, he's shown to be more sympathetic to monstrous criminals than to a boy he raised.

* Batman – Catwoman – The Gotham War – Red Hood 002 (2023)

* Batman (2016) #138

I think you've all had enough of reading about how Bruce took away Jason's autonomy in the name of giving him a normal life when he can't even be a normal human being anymore, all without an ounce of regret, so I won't go there.

#no i cant physically read those three four pages of gotham war and not cry #i've had enough of bruce being an abusive father to jason #and everytime no matter what he does #jason goes back to him #maybe i included the last page because i enjoyed Dick beating the hell out of Bruce on Jason's behalf a little too much #i just need jason and bruce to be a normal father and son for 2 seconds. is it too much to ask DC????#DC #dc comics #identity crisis #batman #batman comics #gotham war #red hood #jason todd #bruce wayne

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serialreblogger · 1 year

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the thing about the joker

is that - well, even canonically, he’s not actually “insane.” in the most canonical version of his backstory (bc there are many conflicting incarnations, but this one is the touchstone for a lot of later canon), he was part of a street gang before falling into a vat of Nondescript Toxic Waste that damaged his melanin production and That’s It. he supposedly “lost his mind” after seeing his reflection, which is absurd on many levels. no. he’s not “insane.” what he is, is an angry white boy.

the thing about the joker is that he exults in his own uncontainability. He laughs, because all of gotham - all the world - is built to be his playground. the only lunatic thing about him is the lunacy of ~Society~, to borrow from the joker’s own playbook; the lunacy of the joker lies in the world that grants him power: in the inheritance of loss: in white privilege, and what it means for everyone else.

“to prove a point.” those were the joker’s exact words, when he shot and paralyzed Barbara Gordon. she asked why: he laughed. “to prove a point.”

because that’s all he ever does. he hurts people because he can. and because all the power in the world can’t save him from getting hurt - and isn’t that just peachy?

because the thing about the joker is that he can get hurt. he has been hurt. but he has so much more capacity to harm than to be harmed. he is immortal. he and he alone will never have to face the consequences of the hurt that he inflicts on other people.

so then: why not hurt them? misery loves company, after all.

the joker is the embodiment and end result of our own social system: the madness of the exception: the laughter of the white man: the imprecation to smile, as he kills you.

(no one ever says it, i find, but it’s still true: barbara deserves to kill him.)

and who, then, is the batman? if the joker is the yin to his yang? if they’re two sides of one irredeemable coin, if they represent the “balance” of an unjustifiable system - who is he if not another white man?

because he is. Bruce Wayne is a white boy born into unspeakable privilege and forced to endure suffering anyway; who copes with his suffering by taking it out on others; who copes with his suffering, not by taking advantage of the world as it is, but by attempting to reshape it. to make it in his own image - as if it isn’t already his, as if claiming it further will crush out the pain.

the batman is the benevolent oppressor to the joker’s malevolent one. he changes nothing, in the end. two privileged white boys with their own respective navel-gazing grudges - where, after all, lies the difference between benevolence and malevolence?

because they are not “chaos” and “order.” not really. They are laissez-faire laughter and law. Joker exults in the disease of the system, Batman seeks to treat its symptoms, but neither of them will ever change anything about the root cause. because they may have suffered the faults of this system, but they still benefit so much more from it as it exists. Uphold it or break it, neither of them wants to change the law.

but the law is only as good as the people it’s made to protect. and who does that law protect, really?

waylon jones is, in one issue, explicitly depicted as Black. between that and his skin disorder, there has never once been room for his character to be any more than a monster: king croc is, always, a character to be violated and brutalized, over and over and over and still - always - written as the villain. (he tried so hard to scrape out a place for himself, so many times, in so many incarnations, and each and every time he finds himself relegated once more to the sewers. he will never be anyone’s king. there is no place under the sun for people like him.)

victor fries only ever wanted to save his wife, and a capitalist mogul decided a few extra numbers on his eight-digit paycheck were more important than the people whose lives depended on that money. fries’ body was damaged to disability by that choice, left without the resources to find a cure for his wife, and he robbed banks because there was no other option available to him. we seem to have forgotten, or maybe never really understood, why that matters. why a desperate man trying to save his life and that of his loved ones under the crushing gears of capitalism is a villain, and the one who stops him is our hero. why, under the law batman upholds, a bank vault and a CEO’s hoard is worth more than a life.

poison ivy just wants to live, too. wants a life not defined by the devastation of her body, of the beings that exist as extensions of her, a life where green and growing things are not commodities to be plowed up and poisoned and destroyed for the sake of another man’s profit. these are villains; they are written as such. these are their motives.

who does batman fight for, really? who is our hero, this emblem of our law?

is he our hero? ours, the broken and bleeding members of the world he claims to protect?

who does the law protect, except him - him, and the joker?

#i'm having another Moment over batman friends #this is not a bruce wayne hate post #for the record. there is so much to be said in a bruce wayne hate post about child abuse and authorship and diversity of canon #but this isn't about bruce wayne. it isn't even really about the joker #i'm stuck on batman. batman as a story. batman as a myth #because the myths we tell and the threads that run consistently through them despite the multitude of tellers and times -#those say so much more than people give them credit for #who batman is - who his villains are - what those heroes and rogues represent? that *matters.* on a level wholly distinct from comic fandom #because one of the few things that remains true of batman across his many incarnations and authors and settings and media #is that: he stands for the law. (except for all the ways in which he breaks it.) his only role is to catch the criminals #when he loses control and begins dispensing Punishment he must be drawn back from the edge. because that is not Batman #Batman is Jim Gordon's only deputy. Batman is the myth of the Good Cop #and the joker? the joker is batman without the law #this too is one of the few strains that carry through nearly all tellings. the joker is never his opposite:#the joker is him without a direction. without restraint. without limits. without control #and these things say a lot about the world beyond batman. about the storytellers behind him. who - to them - is a hero? who is human?#and who is a monster? the joker is a monster because he is lawless. because he is ''mad.'' because he looks Wrong #bruce wayne is a hero because he is lawful. a dark hero because he walks very close to the line of that law - but lawful still #and what is that law? what law do these storytellers see fit to uphold? for which characters does that law do any good?#which characters explicitly harmed by that law are disposable? which are villains by birth?#the fact that someone made the creative decision to depict king croc as Black in a 2008 graphic novel wherein he went cannibal -#the fact that the issue where babs was assaulted and paralyzed was also the issue in which batman sat down and sympathized with the joker -#that all of these villains are neurodivergent or queer-coded or intersex or disabled or Disfigured or just plain not white -#it says a lot. not just about the comics; about the world in which so many writers have crafted this consistent narrative of heroic cruelty #the world that accepts these as our villains. these as our heroes. it says a lot. and it *matters.*#batman #dc comics #linden writes an essay #linden's originals #linden in the tags

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tbcanary · 6 months

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like. it’s complicated, right. bruce didn’t want to see dick hurt; he hurt dick trying to prevent it. he tried to save jason’s life; it killed him. he wanted to show steph the right path forward; he pushed her to hurt herself and others. he loves cass and admires her abilities; he pushes her to be more vigilante than human.

(i don’t have a great pithy way to summarize tim or damian or duke or babs, so i won’t try to, but their relationships are similarly complex and difficult with bruce and with the other bats.)

point is, there are no easy dynamics and there is nothing that is purely good, because the vigilantism fucks all of them up, and bruce, as the driving force behind that vigilantism, fucks them up, too. that’s just how it is. and that’s not to say he doesn’t love or care for them, it’s just that he isn’t very good at parenting them, despite being an excellent mentor and teacher in other ways.

#text.tb #do you get it. do you understand.#he is both their savior and their killer he is the one who takes them in and the one who rejects them #and that’s what makes it INTERESTING #and he does it with EVERYONE. it’s just that most of the other people are adults! and care for themselves!#it doesn’t MATTER if bruce doesn’t want helena here bc helena isn’t his ward #he can make things hard for her but she won’t feel the same stinging rejection (most of the time)#because she’s a grown ass woman capable of caring for herself without his intervention #and that dynamic is amplified and made all the more complex #when the man who doesn’t WANT you to be there #is the one who BROUGHT YOU INTO IT IN THE FIRST PLACE #anyway. god i swear. i swear !!!#metaposting

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honepiii · 9 months

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Please DC, I dont need Bruce to magically become emotionally stable and suddenly start giving his kids hugs and kisses on the forehead (though i wouldnt mind 👀), I just need them to understand that theiR FATHER LOVES THEM UNCONDITIONALLY!!!!!!

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violetbumblebea · 2 years

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In sports, when a teammate talks back to coach, shows up late, or makes a stupid mistake, everyone is punished, normally through conditioning. Sometimes, the teammate who made the mistake is the only one to sit out so that the team is even more mad at them and they feel guilty; it is better incentive to stop the behavior than if only you were being punished.

Everytime the Justice League does any of the aforementioned bad behaviors (which are a little higher risk when superhero-ing), the entire team has to fight Batman without powers. You REALLY don't want to make stupid mistakes in the Justice League because no one wants both Wonder Woman and Superman annoyed at you.

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aalghul · 2 years

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Bruce in UTRH not wanting to save Jason. Dick in BiB wanting to let Jason be killed…no more Dick and Bruce for people that don’t understand them

#like don’t get me wrong dick can be a BITCH (and he is. a lot) but wanting Jason dead?#god that went too far. the whole ‘I wish he’d stayed dead’? yeah dick would say that #he called Roy a junkie and was ableist towards babs he does that sometimes #but actually considering if he wants Jason dead? it doesn’t matter what he’s going thru he would never want someone he cared #enough about to KILL joker for to be dead. like. insanity. what the fuck #it drives me insane #and we all know how I feel about how Bruce was written as so emotionless in utrh

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donnatroyyyy · 1 year

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Batman has/had some kind of miscommunication going on with every single one of his kids. The bat family is just one big miscommunication trope after the other.

#him and Dick have miscommunication about how they see each other. Bruce sees Dick as a son and Dick sees Bruce as a father #but they didn’t think the other saw them that way so they never told each other. that’s what led to their fights in Dick’s later teenage #years and dick quitting and becoming nightwing. he thought Bruce only saw him as a ward/robin so he thought that as long as he couldn’t be #robin Bruce wouldn’t want him #and if didn’t help when Bruce stopped talking to him when he left. though to Bruce it was because he thought Dick didn’t want to talk to him #and also Dick really needs to tell Bruce like ‘hey you put me on a higher pedestal then you put even yourself which is saying something and #and I don’t like that cuz that’s too much pressure for me. and also since you did it everyone else does it and has done it since I was Robin #and it’s literally just a matter of time before I break from the pressure cuz I’m not fucking Superman and I can’t take it’#and Jason with the whole UTRH thing. you know all Bruce had to say was that he had tried killing the joker over Jason multiple times and #maybe just explain to Jason WHY he doesn’t kill. a simple ‘you’re better than me because if I killed one person I’d kill everyone’#or it could even just be a simple ‘I do love you Jason youre the kid that I felt most comfortable loving’#and also maybe a ‘I don’t think anything changed after my death and that makes my death meaningless which I think goes against your no kill #rule because I hat is the rule of not a reminder taht death means something. and by that logic my death already went against the rule so why #can’t you do it again for the man that murdered me.’ and Bruce needs to make a presentation: ‘all the ways Jason’s death meant something’#and Tim just needs a simple ‘I don’t see you as work I see you as family.’ maybe even a ‘you don’t have to be the grown up in this relati #anymore I’m sorry you were one to begin with. you should’ve always been the child’#now his miscommunication with Damian goes much deeper but I’m one hundred percent sure if they sit down and air out all of their feelings it #would help a lot but I have a feeling that won’t happen #a ‘I have trouble understanding you because both your trauma and compassion run deeper than mine and I also never had to grow up to be a #weapon’ from Bruce and a ‘I don’t understand your optimism and moral stubbornness and easness why is it so easy to be good for u?’#his miscommunication with Cass stems from two things a simple ‘why are you so afraid to show how deeply you love?’ from Cass maybe a #‘I’m jealous of you because you’re better than me not only in fighting but morally and emotionally’ from Bruce should fix it #and Steph— look I’m not even going to TRY to get into that that goes SO much deeer and wider than any one else’s miscommunication #but maybe a ‘you reminded me of Jason at a time where that wasn’t a good thing’ from Bruce should start things up #for Duke a ‘I can never truly understand what you’re going/have gone through and for that I’m sorry’ from Bruce should suffice #maybe also Bruce telling him that just because he sees Duke as a son doesn’t mean he’s trying any less to get Duke his parents back #oh and babs just needs to go up to him and say ‘I don’t like that what happened to me happened for your story and not mine and I don’t like #that you don’t let me make it into my story’ and then Bruce can follow up and say ‘I see so much of myself in you and it makes me worry and #also I can never look at you without feeling guilty cuz you’re right what happened to you happened for MY story so I’m at fault’#then the two can go back to being too much like each other and sitting at their respective computers

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ragnarokhound · 5 months

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re: your tags on the jason’s anger post~

hard agree!! i will read reconciliation fics bc like… i do enjoy them getting to be a happy family/group but ultimately, i am firmly in the Jason Todd Was Right camp, &. serious work would need to be done for him to ever actually be part of the family again, bc the actual roots of his issues run DEEP. (and again! he has points!!)

and also same again on like… if i mention the batfamily dynamics in my fics, with the exception of au’s, jason’s relationship with bruce especially is still at least a little strained. he’s a member but also kind of an outsider and maybe he has complicated feelings on that sometimes but ultimately it’s bc his convictions / beliefs run deeper than his need /want of acceptance / belonging.

anyway sorry to dump a rant in your inbox but, i loved your tags & wanted to reply 💞

OUUGHH YES THO!! THANK YOU FOR RANTING, ALWAYS RANT IN MY INBOX STAY IN THIS SPACE WITH ME <333

(I'm about to have a mini-rant of my own, and disclaimer, it's largely informed by my terrible foundation of the UTRH movie + fandom osmosis + the occasional page/panel drop/arguments from other fans skdndndj sO GRAIN OF SALT THE SIZE OF RHODE ISLAND: )

Because yes yes absolutely! It would take serious work on Both sides for Jason to be brought back into the fold. They would both need to want it, and someone would have to be willing to bend on what they are ok with letting slide. Bruce would have to allow Jason his independence and divergence in philosophy; Jason would have to make concessions to Bruce's hard anti-murder stance.

There would have to be compromise, and reparations of some kind. They would have to actually talk and be able to listen. Apologies exchanged (mostly from Bruce because lmao) and a bunch of stuff people with the whole picture could probably tell me better lmao. ALL HARD ASKS

Because yes yes yes!! Jason's convictions and his beliefs ABSOLUTELY run deeper than his desire for acceptance. That's not-so-low-key the biggest obstacle for both him and Bruce in their ever reconciling. It's why Talia was able to manipulate him at all (idk the specifics of that, but details), it's why he hatched a deeply convoluted plan to get back at Bruce and the Joker and fuck over Black Mask in one fell swoop.

He wanted to confront Bruce with the consequences of letting Joker run around even after committing a deeply heinous and personal crime. Show him that taking a more intense and hands on approach and cracking down HARD on the crime families in Gotham would have more immediate results than what Bruce did. And that's not even getting into the Robin stuff yet lol

I don't personally agree per se with Jason's stance on murder and crime fighting lmao - but I also think he has a goddamn point, especially in this universe. In the world of batman, where death can be impermanent and supervillains pull all kinds of heinous, torturous bullshit, Jason has a lot of righteous and justified anger about how Bruce does things, on top of his hurt and betrayal over how both he and his death were treated.

Bruce's stance makes sense to me too, in a 'everyone deserves a second chance' and 'no one is beyond redemption' and 'its a slippery slope' perspective. But at some point you have to wonder about accountability. About what's acceptable. When the Joker is an unrepentant, murderous, sadistic criminal who has demonstrated that he cannot be adequately jailed or rehabilitated, what do you do? Do you ever give up on him? When is enough enough? Is the death penalty ever justifiable?

It's what makes Jason vs Bruce's arguments interesting and tragic to me, because from Jason's perspective, he is seeking retribution for himself as a victim. He is an avenger for victims failed by the system as it stands. And the system fails a lot of people. It needs to change. (And it's something being felt very strongly by a lot of people rn IRL which makes Jason's ideals v sympathetic.)

But from Bruce's perspective, Jason has given up. He has lost hope in the inherent goodness of people. He no longer seeks to find the good in people; he has decided that there exists instead a sharp dichotomy, that there is such thing as a bad person who deserves to die for what they've done, and for being bad. As opposed to seeing deeply injured people who need help, even when you find them repulsive. Rotten work, that.

Bruce sees the end of the path that Jason is on, and it's a bullet that Jason puts in his own brain - because if there are good people and bad people, and bad people deserve to die... won't Jason lump himself in with the bad people eventually? (I am once again standing on my 'Jason Todd wants to die on some level' soapbox)

Anyway, all this to say - there is a sharp divide in Bruce and Jason's methods/beliefs that makes their reconciliation impossible if neither of them is willing to budge. And when they both see budging as a terrible thing to do, a failure to the very people they are dedicating their lives to protecting...well.

It's gonna take a lot of angst and a lot of work.

#slsncjdk #that got longer than i intended #and i didn't even talk about everything i could have #don't get me started on the complicated feelings jason has about robin #both as a role and tim drake's sucession to it #and how that would feed into Jason's resentment of Bruce and the tapestry of failed accountability #because if Jason died as robin but he comes back and fuck all has changed -#theres still a kid running around gotham getting into truly dangerous situations and at risk of the same fucking thing jason died of #still a target for rogues who want to pull one over on batmam and have zero problems with killing and torturing a minor #and those rogues are STILL running around for that matter! so its even LIKELY.#its not the only problem jason has with Bruce upon coming back. but its a pretty big one. because what does that say?#both about jason and about his death. that his death didn't matter? that he's... replaceable? (*JAYTIM TROPE AIRHORNS*)#its an ugly and complicated relationship with ugly complicated problems. which is why its a) easy to misunderstand and b) so compelling #jason todd #dc #dc meta #THANK YOU TAURIA I LOVE HAVING AN EXCUSE TO TALK ABOUT IT #asked and answered #ladytauria

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