#Kylo Ren redemption arc

[theplottingapp]

Look in all seriousness you can't redeem a character without showing them being pathetic, deep loser energy. There are no cool redemption arcs. They have to be in the trenches. They have to hate themselves for the mistakes they made. They have to apologize and take whatever is given be it forgiveness or a punch to the jaw. ONLY then will the redemption arc be actually good because it will be cathartic. And then they get to see the good things, they get to be touched gently and held while they sleep.

These things can overlap, even into a circle but without the pathetic loser boy saga your redemption arc will feel hollow.

#redemption arcs #writing #vegas theerapanyakul #kylo ren #anakin skywalker #klaus mikaelson #elijah mikaelson #dameon targeryan #writeblr #am writing #writers on tumblr #writing advice #writing tip #desiblr #writing help #avatar the last airbender #zuko

[theweeklydiscourse]

Tbh I’ve never really viewed Han’s death as an insurmountable moral obstacle in Kylo’s redemption arc. This could be because I personally don’t have many strong or passionate feelings about him as a character, but I also think that from a story perspective, it’s because his death has a relevant narrative function for Kylo’s character arc.

The fact that the movies take the time to show the viewer his guilt and turmoil over the event, telling Rey that he didn’t hate Han, Snoke berating him for being so shaken by it, these are clear examples of his progression towards redemption. Especially considering that Han had already forgiven his son for killing him and his death acted as a symbolic gesture to give him a push in the right direction. Because it was precisely Han’s death that was the catalyst for Ben’s development in the subsequent movies. I guess I just don’t really see it as a huge deal, Han died loving his son and what better way to honour his sacrifice than for it to eventually culminate in his son returning back to the light?

#ben solo #han solo #the force awakens #tfa #tlj #Rey #redemption arc discourse #reylo discourse #reylo #kylo ren

[ladyevanore]

Adam Driver stated in a recent interview that he signed on as Kylo Ren because he was to do a full Darth Vader reversal—no redemption—in Colin Trevorrow’s original script.

One of the only things I liked about The Rise of Skywalker was Ben Solo’s half-assed redemption arc, and knowing that it wasn’t meant to be and that it was fan service breaks me even more.

#ben solo #kylo ren #kylo x rey #the rise of skywalker #the last jedi #the force awakens #star wars #star wars sequel trilogy #adam driver #redemption arc #reylo

[artist-issues]

What are the best stories you've seen that have a theme of forgiveness? If not strictly about forgiveness, then any themes along the lines of retribution, redemption arcs, or even "seeing through another's eyes" (I may or may not have rewatched Brother Bear recently lol)

Well, we’ve got all my old standbys. Cinderella, of course, is a story that really has forgiveness in it, because Cinderella wholeheartedly forgives her stepfamily for mistreating her. (Actually, she might be “forbearance,” not forgiveness.) But they’re completely off her hook. I think there’s a really great moment of forgiveness between Nick and Judy in Zootopia that gets overlooked. Frozen, with Anna and Elsa. Brother Bear is a really great example, truly! I love that movie.

I think some of my other favorites include the original A Star is Born, or even the Judy Garland remake. (Those also might be more “forbearance.”) I think one of the best examples I ever saw of forgiveness was in Avatar: the Last Airbender, which everybody knows:

And of course, ‘Til We Have Faces and The Chronicles of Narnia by C.S. Lewis have some of the best-distilled forgiveness moments in any stories, ever. There are sweet ones in The Princess and the Goblin by George MacDonald, too, though they’re not as dramatic. In Anne’s House of Dreams, by L.M. Montgomery, Anne’s repeated forgiveness of Leslie’s coldheartedness or rudeness is a really simple but awesome example of day-to-day forgiveness.

I don’t easily think of a lot of good examples of it in stories. Brother Bear definitely has it, because without it, the story doesn’t work—Sitka wouldn’t help Kenai to learn from his wrongs, Kenai would’ve been killed by Denahi, Koda would’ve been left alone—but I don’t think forgiveness is the main focus of the movie. I think it’s a load-bearing component, but not the focus.

You’re making me want to see a movie that really homes in on that!

The thing is, I guess, for forgiveness to be the focus of a movie, there has to be a character that 100% definitely does the complete wrong, inexcusable thing to another character. Something that he deserves to be on the hook for. Then he has to acknowledge that he did the wrong thing and want forgiveness. And then the other character, the one who was wronged, has to willingly acknowledge that wrong and then let the offender off the hook. It’s not just “we’ll pretend this didn’t happen.” It’s both parties acknowledging that wrong was done, and having an exchange that ends in reconciliation. It’s got grace and mercy wrapped up in it.

Not many movies have true moments like this. Usually, one character is super sorry and the other character just seems to brush off whatever they did with like, a callback to an inside joke or something. (I’m thinking if Treasure Planet, to be honest.) Or, the situation necessitates that they put their conflict aside and work together, and then after the day is saved they sort of “get over” all that and swagger off into the sunset together.

As far as “redemption” goes—gee, all the old standbys! All the ones I mentioned above, plus Star Wars, plus East of Eden (the movie, not the book) plus, of course, my all-time favorite movie, Lilo & Stitch.

In Lilo & Stitch, you have the ugly little creature who belongs absolutely nowhere, is by definition a blight on nature and an abomination of existence, who was actively created to ruin everything. And he does it, and he takes delight in it. But there’s this little girl who gets pushed down, gets her doll chewed on, gets rejected when she’s most in need of his companionship—and she just keeps on loving him anyway. Because she’s chosen to, not because he did anything to deserve it. And then that infects him. That idea of family—of someone choosing to love you, no matter how ugly you are inside and out, and by choosing to love you, they create a place where you belong. No matter what. And that changes him. A germ from outside of him changes him from a literal world-destroying, home-shattering selfish monster into something new, something adopted, something loved.

I’d call it a story about committed love and grace, not necessarily redemption—because the focus of the story isn’t really “Stitch does something wrong but then through a process of pain and transformative struggle, redeems that wrong.” That’s not the focus of the story. But it’s still “bad character becomes good.” And I can’t help but talk about Lilo & Stitch once you get me started on it, sorry!

I think the best redemption stories are some of the ones I’ve listed above, plus East of Eden, Beauty & the Beast, and really, truly Sydney Carton from Charles Dickens’ A Tale of Two Cities.

And I think Kylo Ren was well on his way to being one of the best redemption stories of all time, if TROS hadn’t fumbled the ending so clumsily—but that’s another post for another time! I don’t know if this satisfactorily answered your question, but it was fun to ramble about and I’ll tag you if I make another post as more come to mind.

#thanks Buddy #asked #answered #Kylo Ren #beauty & the beast #forgiveness #redemption arcs #Zuko #the beast #Lilo & stitch #writing #character development

[niniane17]

I know it's 2024 and nobody cares anymore (I hope), but I finally watched Adam Driver's latest interview about Star Wars that he made about two months ago and I felt like commenting on it, because why not?

Quite frankly, I don't know why anyone is so surprised. What he said, essentially, is something we already knew: that there was no Great Plan on the sequel trilogy and that Kylo Ren was originally conceived as an unsympathetic, irredeemable character that got popular against the production's intentions.

Mind you, I'm not happy about any of this. But surprised? Nah. In fact, my only consolation is that I sensed bullshit all the way back in 2018, when I looked at Kylo Ren's haunted face and thought "this is gonna be another Loki: rooting for him will only end in heartbreak". Then the Rise of Skywalker happened, and it was so bad that basically turned me into a Kylo -and yes, even Reylo- fan overnight. As I said many times, the shortest way to make me love a character is to treat them unfairly. It doesn't matter to me if they are "good" or "bad": fiction isn't reality and it doesn't follow the same rules. In fiction, the most important thing is to be consistent: among other things, you have to make sure you follow up to all the things you've planted beforehand (unless, of course, there's a theme about incompleteness or something).

I was angry on his behalf for a good while, I can only imagine feeling like this for years. I said before that I got the feeling Ford had basically improvised the whole scene with Adam Driver, but now I'm wondering if maybe he was also the one who pushed for Kylo's redemption too. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised. Somebody had to point out that people watch Star Wars for the Skywalker family, hoping they get a happy ending.

How the fuck could the whole production be shocked that redemption -especially redemption for a Skywalker- was Star Wars' big theme? Especially AFTER they decided to make a sequel trilogy NOBODY had asked for? I guess this is what happens when a franchise gets lost in too much lore and details, or huge space fights.

Anyway, I'm sorry for Driver because it's clear they wasted his talent, but on the bright side, it put him on the map and now we can enjoy him in more projects.

#star wars #star wars sequel trilogy #kylo ren #adam driver #another bright side: no kylo tv show #i really don't want him to become another loki #with fans literally begging to complete his character arc for a decade #his arc being a redemption arc after thor/his family/asgard did admit they contribuited to his villainy in some ways #and the studios giving us ANYTHING BUT THAT

[kyber-collector]

Do I like Kylo Ren’s character? Yes.

Do I think his “redemption” was effective? No.

A character can’t just sacrifice themself and have all of their previous deeds erased. By dying, Ben escaped responsibility for his crimes. One good act does not undo everything that came before, and acting as if it does is ridiculous. 

Not only that, but he doesn’t even appear to take his own “redemption” to heart. What I mean by that is, when Ben turns back to the light side, we don’t see any sort of moral re-evaluation or even understanding of why his previous actions were wrong. He just “turns good” without really establishing why. Does he suddenly understand why the First Order is wrong? Does he suddenly want to take accountability for the damage he did to the galaxy? A character can’t just “turn good” and be forgiven, there needs to be both internal and external work and progress for a redemption to be effective.

#kylo ren #Star Wars #sequel trilogy #star wars sequels #star wars thoughts #I'm just so tired of lazy writing okay #character redemption is possible you just actually have to work for it PLEASE #ben solo #redemption arc #kylo redemption

[shinyasahalo]

Redemption Through Romantic Love is a terrible trope because in real life that is how women are seen as being responsible for a man's behavior. Or women stay in a bad relationship because they think he'll change.

That's how people make excuses for the white male villain with sad backstory. They baby him instead of stanning him as the villain he is.

Good redemption arcs are not motivated by romance, because then the REAL motivation is to be in a relationship.

#Darkling #Kylo Ren #Felix Fathom #Daemon Targaryen #Rumplestiltskin #Severus Snape #Redemption arc

[the-true-boomer]

#redemption arc #writing #darth vader #discord #prince zuko #kylo ren #loki laufeyson #nebula #prince vegeta #and most importantly #clayton costas

[c-m-li]

#redemption arc #jaime lannister #BOOK JAIME #zuko #kylo ren #luke castellan #murtagh morzansson #loki #matthias helvar #evil queen #regina mills #lord wyldon #a song of ice and fire #avatar the last airbender #star wars #percy jackson and the olympians #the inheritance cycle #mcu #six of crows #once upon a time #protector of the small #tamora pierce #polls

[clonehub]

i have to remember when i critique star wars as being v liberal my def of liberal is farther right i think than other people's definitions of it are

#ch posts #for me now liberal means the mostly spineless ''politicians like AOC nnem are my friends and decorum + appearance are more important than #actual change'' types #status quo support with a face lift #so if/when I say something like Crosshair tbb and Kylo Ren ST are v liberal its like #the appearance that things are changing for the better #without the acknowledgement of how violent those ideologies are #and how one does not simply stop being fash one day #and how no it cant be cured with forgiveness and solitude #and i get for storytelling purposes any journey away from that ideology #has to be shortened bc TV/movie runtimes #but Andor (while not perfect) at least understands that people #*ppls reasons for joining it are meaningless #they had depth without demanding empathy! #thats how i wanted to phrase it #overall not forgiving the way some others are #im tired of redemption arcs i really am

[theweeklydiscourse]

Could you imagine if someone said something like “ATLA would’ve been a better show if Zuko was tempted towards joining team Avatar and fighting to end the war but instead chose to pursue evil and staunchly rejected any chance of redemption . Wouldn’t it be so compelling if after the Crossroads of Destiny, Zuko just became more evil? Yeah, I mean fully embracing fire nation nationalism and becoming like his father. I would love it if the narrative presented us with the possibility of his redemption only for it to subvert those expectations and have him begin and end as an ontologically evil villain who remains static for all three seasons. What an amazing character arc that would be.”

This is what “Ben Solo should never have been redeemed” discourse sounds like to me. I know people have their interpretations, but I am genuinely so baffled by the idea that his character would’ve been improved if they had done what is essentially a retread of Anakin’s arc in the prequels. It’s complete and utter nonsense and I’m so annoyed by all of the people talking about that idea as if it’s SOOOOOO DEEP when in reality it’s probably the shallowest storyline you could come up with.

#the comparison might not be the best but I hope I got my point across #Star Wars #Kylo ren #Ben solo #atla #avatar the last airbender #Zuko #redemption arc #tlj #tros #TFA #anakin skywalker #anti tros #ben solo deserved better

[marlynnofmany]

#I have Opinions #about Star Wars

Would it be asking too much if I ask you to tell?

(no pressure to answer this of course)

Sure, why not. Here are the opinions relevant to that post, in no particular order:

*Kylo Ren is a horrendous character that people should not idealize

*seriously he's an avatar for too many horrible people in the real world

*fans wanting him to get an easy redemption are Wrong

*he does not and should not get to fall in love and let the girl fix him

*that is NOT something we want kids to imprint on

*so no, he shouldn't get to simply cross over to the good guys' side

*but having him go turncoat at the last minute, only to die immediately is the laziest writing

*yeah, I know it's just copying what happened with Vader the first time around

*that's lazy too

*it would be so much more interesting, and more helpful for impressionable fans, for the Fallen Character With The Blackest Soul to have to actually deal with some consequences

*and yeah, maybe those consequences are just that society collectively decides that death or imprisonment are the only solution

*but maybe the villain gets tasked with doing something productive, to start paying back their debt. There's no way they can ever make up for all the murder, not really, but it's important that they try.

*and I just want to see someone like that actually face up to what they've done. Realize that they should apologize. Realize that no apology could ever be enough. Try anyway.

*I would be far more interested in seeing Darth Vader rebuilding the Ewok village with his mind than seeing him dead in the middle of it.

*Kylo Ren still deserves to be punted into the sun.

...Those are my opinions. I think that about covers all the bases for now. Other people are of course welcome to their own opinions, whether or not they agree with mine. I will simply smile and nod at any disagreement, like a barista making a drink that is questionably unhealthy but it's not my business if someone else wants to be Wrong, then I'll go about my life.

#discourse #star wars #you asked #hope you like the answer #kylo ren sucks #to anyone coming at me to fight about it #I am but a force ghost #and your weapons pass right through #I'm uninterested in arguing about this #tropes #redemption arcs

[ghxstwrxter]

On this blog we believe in redemption over death

#the darkling; ben solo/kylo ren; anakin skywalker/darth vader #ALL THE REDEMPTION ARCS > killing them

[bookhorder16]

They should have let Zuko’s writers do Kylo Ren/ Ben’s redemption arc

#zuko writers #redemption arc #kylo ren #ben solo #ben skywalker #t

[nevesmose]

I have to change the tense of a story when it's about 90% done. Aggrieved Waluigi noises.

As it is now it's just a bit blah and presenting it differently will a) give me a chance to try something new and b) hopefully tie in better with the kind of atmosphere/literary milieu I'm trying to evoke. And c) still let me pull off the twist ending I'm feeling smug about.

Third person past ➡️ first person present it is then!

#and yes all this effort is for a horus heresy historical au fic #if it's worth doing it's worth doing right 😤 #neves rambles #writing #my unsolicited TLJ opinion: it should've ended with Rey actually joining Kylo Ren #it felt like a real missed opportunity for a story supposedly all about subverting expectations #and then have a redemption arc or whatever in ep 9 just in the context of “we have both made terrible mistakes and need to set them right” #in fact let's go full harrison ford mode - they both die together meaningfully and finn is the one who restarts the jedi #“let the past die kill it if you have to” after all. a clean slate for the galaxy to start anew #it's not great but it wouldn't involve making Oscar Isaac try to pull off the line “somehow Palpatine returned” either so #$10m please disney

[worstcharacterpoll]

[Image description: A tournament bracket of 32 contenders, labeled "Tumblr's most hated." The matchups on the left are Vriska vs. Pearl from SU; Rex from Victorious vs. Rick Sanchez; Ansem the Wise vs. Gul Dukat; Kylo Ren vs. Kokichi Ouma; Scrappy Doo vs. Sheldon Cooper; Pierre from Stardew vs. Mort from Madagascar; Seraphine from League vs. Heimskr; and Jurgen Leitner vs. Andre Glacier. The matchups on the right are Walter White vs. Light Yagami; Buck Cluck vs. Ross Geller; Bramblestar vs. Starlight Glimmer; Goro Akechi vs. Pariston Hill; Katsuki Bakugo vs. Berdly; Angel Dust vs. the Impostor; Olaf from Frozen vs. Hooty; and Zenos viator Galvus vs. Tony Stark. The bracket is red on a black background. End ID]

Here is the official bracket for the most Hated Character on Tumblr! Each round will last 24 hours, with a 12 hour break in between. Round 1 should start Feb 9, 2023 at 9:00 AM CST.

As a reminder, this tournament is for the characters that you hate the most, so always vote for your least favorite of the two options. The winner will be publicly executed.

FAQ under cut:

Q: Why did you put in x character and not y character? Aren't there more hateable characters from that franchise?

A: I wanted to keep the competition light-hearted, funny, and interesting. I intentionally avoided most shitty parent characters, dictators, characters who were meant to be hated, etc., as well as characters heavily associated with bigotry and sexual assault, and gravitated towards characters that were more divisive in fandom. Exceptions were only made for characters I am familiar enough with and can use my own judgement for. Using Zenos as an example: He is a villain who is very evil and meant to be hated, which I mostly avoided when taking suggestions for things I wasn't familiar with myself. However, he's very divisive between people who think he's a good interesting villain, people who don't think he's a good villain and don't like him in the story at all, and people who want him carnally. Walter White is also meant to be hated, but he has a meme status, and as a villain protagonist I think he's more interesting than most "meant to be hated" characters. Also, there are certain franchises that I simply didn't want to include. If JK Rowling wasn't such a real and horrible political presence, owing all her influence to Harry Potter, I would've definitely put Snape on the poll. As it stands, I don't really want to give HP any attention. TL;DR answer: Because it's funnier that way

Q: But I LIKE that character :(

A: As mentioned before, I specifically gravitated more towards characters who are more divisive rather than universally hated. They are usually more interesting, and there is more variety with those types of characters - you don't have shitty dad character #1 vs. shitty dad character #2. I actually looked for "anti-(character)" tags and discourse about that character when making decisions about who to include. lol If you actually like some of these characters (uh, my condolences), vote against them in their respective matchups.

Q: Is it too late to suggest a replacement?

A: Yes.

Q: Why are you doing this?

A: I feed off of hatred and violence. I want to see who tumblr users REALLY hate.

Q: Why Pearl?

A: It was quite a while ago now so I get it if people don't remember, but Pearl discourse used to be a big thing and people argued that she was irredeemable for many of the things she did early on in the show. If you remember the "Pearl hates the Irish" meme, that was a parody of how much people hated her

Q: Why Hooty?

A: I haven't seen the Owl House but I'm told many people think he's annoying. Also he's voiced by Alex Hirsch and fuck that guy he did my boy Ford so dirty I'm still mad about this

Q: Why Starlight Glimmer?

A: MLP:FiM is another show I didn't really watch but she was a villain who got redeemed and became a main character and a lot of people think her redemption arc was rushed and botched and she actually made a lot of people quit watching the show. One of my close friends really really really hates her and I don't think that's an isolated incident

Q: Why Berdly?

A: Annoying. Personally I think his arc of becoming less annoying was pretty fun but a lot of people still hate him.

Q: Why Bakugo (instead of Mineta)?

A: I actually debated this a lot and held a preliminary poll which Mineta actually won. But then I decided democracy is dead because Mineta really wouldn't be as interesting as Bakugo in this tournament because he's basically universally hated. Bakugo is more interesting because people who hate him REALLY hate him, while people who love him REALLY love him. Kind of like Vriska. I think. I never read Homestuck and I don't plan on ever doing so.

Q: Why Tony Stark?

A: He's a heavily divisive character because he's a war profiteer billionaire with a superiority complex, but the narrative treats him as a morally pure hero. Also, he's MCU Spider-Man's mentor and most of MCU Spider-Man is basically defined by Tony Stark and he's not allowed to be his own character. There's a bunch of other stuff but I didn't watch and I don't care about most of the MCU. Personally I'm a really big Spider-Man fan and I despise him for what he did to Peter Parker but I shall refrain from making this a long rant.

Q: Why did you include characters that you're not familiar with?

A: I didn't want to exclusively have characters from my interests. I wanted a bit of variety. Before the poll started, I accepted submissions for candidates, and basically trusted submitters to send in decent characters. Some of the characters I ended up with may go against the vague guidelines I set for myself, which kind of sucks, but that's how it is now.

Q: This bracket sucks.

A: Make your own tournament then. I'm just some guy making a tournament on tumblr dot com for free. Don't take it too seriously.

#polls #worst character poll