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galactic-magick · 11 months

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But Then I Saw You: Adam Warlock x Reader

Summary: Adam can’t take his eyes off you and he doesn’t understand why.

Words: 0.7k+

Warnings: SPOILERS!!

Adam was slowly but surely learning to navigate his new life—a far different one than he ever thought he’d be living.

Between missions with the other Guardians, his new home is Knowhere. He has his own small apartment with an overlook of the city, and he’s been trying to inegrate himself into the community. It’s difficult, considering he violently destroyed the place less than a year ago, yet he’s made a decent amount of friends.

There’s one person he still hasn’t figured out how to talk to, though, and that’s you.

Adam sees you around town nearly everyday, and the sight of you always makes him feel something different. He doesn’t understand why he can’t just talk to you like he does everyone else, the nervousness always stopping him. He’s been made well aware that he left his cocoon too early, and therefore isn’t fully developed, but this feeling isn’t something he ever heard mentioned by his mother or his people.

“Ya know, it’s a good thing you don’t have laser eyes or something, because they’d be dead from all your staring,” Rocket jokes, catching Adam looking at you again.

“I don’t know why I can’t stop looking at them,” Adam says.

“Sounds like you got a crush, golden boy,”

“I am Groot,” Groot agrees.

“What’s a crush?” Adam asks, intrigued.

“Oh, geez, do I have to be the one to explain it to him?”

Groot steps up, wrapping a vine around Adam’s shoulders, “I am Groot. I am Groot, I am Groot. I am Groot! I am Groot?”

“Yeah, that makes sense. I guess we just don’t usually have those romantic type feelings in my species. We reproduce through genetic engineering and birthing pods, so we don’t have the need to be attracted to each other like that,”

“Okay, so what’s wrong with you then?” Rocket laughs.

“I don’t know,” Adam catches another glance at you. “But maybe it’s not a bad thing,”

“I am Groot?”

Rocket cackles again, “No way am I giving him dating advice, Groot. Go ask Drax or something, he’s the one who’s been married before,”

Adam doesn’t waste much time, so later that day he asks Drax how he should talk to you. Of course Draw tells him about how he met his wife, talking about his attraction to her in graphic detail. Adam hangs onto every word, taking everything in as if he’d be quizzed on it. He asks lots of questions, trying to figure out how best to express his interest in you. Eventually he thinks he has it down, so next time he sees you, he’s determined to make his move.

Fortunately, that time comes pretty fast, and he sees you sitting in the main square on his way home. He sits beside you, attempting to be somewhat covert and casual.

“Hi,” he says.

“Hi,” you reply with a smile. “You’re Adam, right?”

“You know who I am?”

“Well, yeah, everyone here knows who you are,” you shrug. “Plus I see you staring at me a lot so I’ve asked some people what your deal is,”

Adam loses his entire train of thought, quickly realizing his plan had already failed. He clearly already weirded you out by his behavior, and he didn’t want to further discomfort you.

“I’m sorry,” are the only words he finds to say.

“Why?” you laugh. “I’m not mad, I’ve just been waiting for you to actually talk to me,”

“Really?”

“Yeah, I’ve been wanting to know what’s so interesting about me. Do I look like someone you knew or something?”

He’s relieved to know you’re not upset with his terrible social skills, but he still doesn’t know quite how to respond. How is he to explain how seeing you makes him feel?

“The truth is,” he starts, “I thought my people were supposed to be the most beautiful and perfect species in the universe...but then I saw you,”

Now it’s your turn to lose all words and thoughts from your mind. Is the Adam Warlock into you?

“I never meant to scare you, and I understand if you don’t feel similar feelings towards me,” he stand up, “I hope you have a lovely evening,”

“Wait, hang on Adam,” you stop him from leaving. “Why didn’t you just ask me out?”

“Out where?”

You laugh, his confusion endearing, “Anywhere, goldie. I need to get to know you better before I decide if I like you too, don’t I?”

“Ah, yes! Great idea,” he nods. “I will ask you out tomorrow, then,”

“Not now?”

“I need to go home now to feed my pet,”

“Of course,” you smile. “Tomorrow, then,”

He flies up into the air, leaving you to look forward to whatever he comes up with.

Read this to make a Guardians request!

#adam warlock x reader #guardians of the galaxy x reader #gotg x reader #adam warlock #guardians of the galaxy #gotg #guardians of the galaxy vol 3 #gotg 3

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hellomystraightlacedfriend · 16 days

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The Osborns' 'Weird' Relationship: An Analysis

◇ Spectacular Spider-Man #146 - Gerry Conway/Sal Buscema ◇

Okay, so I know it was awhile ago that I said I might write an analysis of some of the emotional dysfunctional aspects of 616 Norman and Harry Osborn’s relationship, but I really struggled with the format and how I was going to present this.

One thing that I ended up having to do was throw out any speculation on the writers' intent. With comics, you have so many different writers - especially with a long ongoing, popular series like Spider-Man - that I decided to focus a lot more on the patterns I was picking up when I was reading.

But before I go any further:

CW: discussions of child abuse, mental illness, and suicidal ideation

Disclaimer: In this analysis, I am trying to provide an explanation for why Norman might behave the way he does. However, this explanation of Norman’s abuse is not meant to be a justification of his behaviour.

Also, before we start, you are absolutely allowed to disagree with this analysis! Every reader sees/interprets things a little differently, but I've seen other people pick up on the Osborns' relationship being well, strange, so I decided to examine that a little closer.

There were certain things I kept noticing in Norman and Harry's relationship that I found abnormal (you know, apart from Norman's extensive verbal abuse). Things like: Harry's really intense and misplaced loyalty to his father (that interfers with his other relationships.) The way in which Harry feels responsible for his father. The way Harry doesn’t have a strong identity outside of his father, and how his father doesn't allow (or think Harry needs) any emotional privacy. Also, just some of the ways Norman talks to his son don’t make it feel like a normal parent-child relationship.

In particular in this analysis, I did want to talk about emotional incest and enmeshment, which I am going to define now.

The psychological definition of emotional (or covert) incest is when a parent relies on their child for emotional support that they should be getting from another adult. They treat their child like a friend or partner, instead of well, a child.

And

An enmeshed family is one where there is a lack of boundaries, and often, the child isn't allowed to have an individual identity.

I think we see a lot of the after affects of this kind of emotional abuse in Harry as an adult, and while we don't see a whole lot of Harry and Norman's relationship dynamic when Harry is growing up, I do want to start from there, using what flash backs and other information we have.

Actually to give some background on why this kind of abuse occurred, I will go back a bit further than that and talk briefly about Norman’s childhood and his relationship with Harry’s mother.

Norman definitely didn't have a great childhood. His father was a bitter and abusive alcoholic who blamed all of his problems on other people, including his son. And while Norman's mother wasn't abusive towards him, she did fail to protect him. This betrayal from an early age from both his parents would have been a huge contributer to Norman's extensive trust issues (and his drive to be in control so he's not hurt again.)

Norman didn't get the emotional support and attention he needed while growing up, so that's really what he was seeking as a young adult, and he found it in Emily Lyman aka Harry's mother.

Now while I don’t think that Norman and Emily's relationship was perfect like he presents it to be, I do think from his point-of-view this was a great time in his life. He was finally out from under his father's thumb. This beautiful woman believed in him. They had their whole lives ahead of them. The possibilities were endless, and then - she died.

Or faked her death and left him because he was so controlling.

Either way, she was gone, and he still a young man was left to go on as a single father.

Interestingly, Norman both blames Harry for Emily's death and compares him to her. Much later in his life, when talking to Harry's grave, Norman says that he tried to be fair to Harry 'even though you were so much like your mother in so many ways.' In this scene, Norman is angry at Harry for dying and thus 'abandoning' him to be alone. And I think that's what Norman felt when Emily died too, this deep sense of abandonment.

◇ Spider-Man: Revenge of the Green Goblin #1 - Roger Stern/Ron Frenz | Peter Parker: Spider-Man #44 - Paul Jenkins/Humberto Ramos ◇

(Later, it's revealed that Harry is not dead. Or maybe he is. I am NOT getting into the whole post-OMD-Harry-is-a-clone mess. For the sake of this analysis, they are the same person. They would have the same memories anyway.)

Now I am going to be piecing some things together and doing a bit of speculating. One thing that always stuck with me is that Harry keeps saying that his and Norman's relationship used to be different, that they used to be 'pals,' and then something changed. While I know a lot of people dismiss this, become Harry is delusional about his father at other points, I do think when Norman became the Green Goblin, there was a shift in their relationship dynamic, and Norman stopped opening up as much to his son.

I still absolutely think Norman was a neglectful and preoccupied father, but I also think that Norman was an emotionally needy person, and once Emily died, Norman (who was most likely extremely depressed and lacking a support system) tried to have Harry meet some of those needs. I say tried to, because Harry was just a little kid, a baby, and he wouldn’t be capable of doing that.

I think a lot about a panel from Spectacular Spider-Man #178 where Harry is talking to his own son Normie Osborn. Normie is a very young child/toddler. While Harry is talking to Normie, and Normie is watching TV, Harry starts hallucinating that his father is in the room. (Both Harry and his father have had psychotic episodes.)

Norman tells Harry that Normie should be listening to Harry, and when Harry says that Normie is just 'a little guy' and 'doesn't really understand all this,' the Norman Sr. hallucination becomes angry and says that Harry was just the same. That Harry was lost in his own head when he was young, and couldn’t hear when Norman talked to him.

◇ Spectacular Spider-Man #178 - J.M. DeMatteis/Sal Buscema ◇

It's interesting the way Norman and Harry differ here. Harry wants his son Normie to be able to enjoy these early years and have this chance to be carefree. Whereas Norman doesn't seem to really understand the concept of childhood and childhood innocence.

I also find it interesting (because I'm obsessed with word choice) that both Norman and Harry use 'pals' to describe their relationship.

◇ Amazing Spider-Man #39 & #40 - Stan Lee/John Romita Sr. ◇

And just in general, Norman and Harry's relationship doesn't seem to fall into the typical parent-child relationship - where the parent takes care of the child and meets the child's emotional needs. Instead, it's more complicated and codependent.

Norman and Harry both view Norman as Harry’s provider and protector. Norman is abusive towards Harry, but he does show deep concern about Harry's safety and worries about what would happen if he (Norman) suddenly died - because he's afraid Harry wouldn't be able to fend for himself.

On the other hand, Norman really doesn't give Harry any tools to become independent or encourage a separate identity, and I think part of that is because subconsciously - as much as he keeps saying he wants Harry to be strong - Norman actually wants Harry to be dependent on him.

Like on one level Norman does want Harry to be strong and be able to think for himself, so that he can take over the company and continue the Osborn legacy (and he is angry at Harry and verbally punishes him for not living up to this). But on a more personal - and like I said before subconscious - level, I do think that Norman wants Harry to have to rely on him. Because Norman doesn't want Harry to be able to leave him. Because he doesn't want to be alone.

And that's the thing, I do think that Norman is also dependent on Harry.

Harry is the nurturer to his father's protector and provider. He cares for and worries about his father a lot, and as much as Norman does not like to be seen as weak, there are quite a few moments where we do see Norman be vulnerable around his son.

Why this happened is probably largely circumstantial. Norman is a very paranoid man, who constantly fears betrayal from those around him. Even with the other adults in Norman's life who he is 'close' to - like J Jonah Jameson and George Stacy, he is not open. He does not trust them. He thinks that people are conspiring against him. However, he doesn't see his young son as a threat, as someone who could turn against him and hurt him. And he pulls Harry into this emotional isolation with him by telling his son not to trust anyone but his family (anyone but Norman.)

◇Amazing Spider-Man #62 - Stan Lee/John Romita Sr. || Amazing Spider-Man #47 - Stan Lee/John Romita Sr. || Amazing Spider-Man #67 - Stan Lee/John Romita Sr. || Spectacular Spider-Man #200 - J.M. DeMatteis/Sal Buscema◇

That puts Harry in a very difficult position, because he has deal with these adult concerns at such a young age, and he also can't fully open up to anyone else. This strain, along with Norman's exacting standards and scathing criticism, puts a lot of pressure of Harry.

However, Harry is used to being his father's confidant, and he becomes extremely anxious if his father shuts him out - or worse if he doesn't know where his father is. In a way, as much as Harry says that his father is strong and great, I think (at some level) Harry must also see his father as (emotionally) fragile.

This is especially noticeable in Amazing Spider-Man #121, where Harry is supposed to be resting because he has just overdosed, but he can't because he's so worried about how his father will react to possible financial ruin. He goes to him, tells his father that he doesn't need to worry about him, that he can take care of himself, that he's just worried about his father. He then proceeds to collapse in Norman's arms because he is not well.

◇ Amazing Spider-Man #40 - Stan Lee/John Romita || Amazing Spider-Man #61 - Stan Lee/John Romita Sr., Don Heck || Amazing Spider-Man #63 - Stan Lee/Don Heck, John Romita || Amazing Spider-Man #121 - Gerry Conway/Gil Kane ◇

This collapse leads Norman to want to rid Peter Parker/Spider-Man from his life (by killing Peter), because he falsely blames Peter for Harry's drug overdose and also the collapse of Osborn Indistries.

Now Peter’s involvement in the Osborns' personal lives is interesting. Peter is the first person that Harry really opens up to outside of his father - when Harry breaks down and complains that his father had been very distant in the last few years. When Peter responds with the emotional support Harry had never gotten from Norman, Harry draws Peter further into his life by asking him to be his roommate. Harry’s demeanour toward Peter also becomes similar to his attitude towards his father, submissive and eager to please. (He even calls Peter 'sir' at one point when he's trying to get his attention - an address he uses towards his father.)

Peter, however, is so caught up in being Spider-Man that, like Norman, Peter often neglects his relationship with Harry. This leads Harry to be rather passive-aggressive. At one point, Harry offers to make Peter breakfast, but when he hears Peter locking his stuff up, he becomes insulted that Peter would think he would steal from him and storms off to see Norman instead.

This becomes an ongoing element, Harry being torn between Norman and Peter, and seeking love/support from both of them, but seemingly unable to get it.

Now I want to make it quite clear that Norman and Peter are not equally responsible here. Peter is Harry’s age and has troubles of his own. Norman should be acting as Harry’s father, but he really isn't, not emotionally anyway. He is meeting his son's material needs (to an excess), but he is emotionally neglecting his son while also emotionally burdening him with his own troubles. Plus Norman is constantly verbally berating Harry for failing to live up to his impossible expectations - leaving Harry feeling worthless and extremely depressed.

Harry takes drugs to cope with these negative feelings - first abusing prescription medication and then moving on to street drugs. There is even already a note of passive suicidal ideation here, as when Peter asks him how many pills he's taking, Harry's response is 'What’s the difference? Who counts?' (Amazing Spider-Man #97 - Stan Lee/Gil Kane.)

Now I refuse to believe that Harry doesn't understand that there's a possibility of overdose here: he's a chemistry (and business) major with a father who sells drugs for a living. He knows that it is a possibility. So, while he's not actively seeking to end his life, he also doesn't really seem to care if he lives or dies - as long as he can escape from his pain.

Harry does eventually overdose - and it's an overdose that leads Norman to go after Peter & also Peter’s girlfriend (and Harry's friend) Gwen. Norman blames all of Harry’s friends for his condition, but especially Peter. And Norman blames himself for failing to protect his son from them. He threatens to kill Gwen if Peter doesn't end his own life, and when Peter doesn't comply, Norman goes ahead with his threat - throwing Gwen Stacy off the George Washington Bridge. (Amazing Spider-Man #121 - Gerry Conway/Gil Kane.)

Peter (as Spider-Man) goes after Norman in revenge, and Norman ends up dying (albeit by his own glider and not Peter’s hand.) Harry eventually figures out that Peter is Spider-Man, and this leads him to think that his and Peter’s friendship wasn't real, that it was entirely a ruse on Peter’s part. That Peter was just getting close to Harry to close in on his father.

Harry ends up forgetting about Peter Parker’s secret identity after his first attack on Peter though, and so for years the threat of Harry's revenge remains dormant. However, even from 'beyond the grave' (Norman, um, kind of faked his death, but Harry didn’t know that) Norman still had a hold on Harry’s psyche.

One early warning sign of the return of Green Goblin might have been that Harry names his child both after his father and himself (Norman Harold Osborn), keeping their names (and identies) close together. Harry also tells young Normie how special a man his grandfather Norman Osborn was. Then Harry begins to hear his father's voice telling him to revenge his death, to kill Spider-Man/Peter Parker.

Harry goes back and forth on how he sees his father. At times, he is able to see his father as who he really was/is, a dangerous criminal who ruined his own life. However, at other points, he calls Norman 'wonderful' and 'the greatest man this world has ever known.' He claims that his father's spirit is in him fuelling all his efforts, and blames Peter for both Norman's and Gwen's deaths.

Of course, it would be hard for anyone to admit that their father killed one of their closest friends, however, I think with Harry it goes even beyond that. Because Harry doesn't have a solid identity outside of his father, he is unable to fully see himself and his father as two separate people. So, in his head, Harry can't admit that his father killed Gwen, because then he would also have to think that he killed Gwen - something I don't think that Harry can wrap his head around doing. It's easier then to blame someone else - Peter/Spider-Man.

When Harry does finally admit that Norman killed Gwen, he still absolutely thinks (pretty understandibly) that it was Peter who ended Norman's life. Because of this, Harry decides that both he and Peter would be better off dead - and that their deaths would protect their loved ones from further harm.

It is only an outpouring of unconditional love from Peter (something Harry had never really felt before) that sways Harry from ending Peter’s life. He carries Peter out of the building where he had set up a timed bomb, but then seemingly dies himself (from side effects of the serum he'd taken to make himself stronger.)

🪻🌷🪻🌷🪻🌷🪻🌷🪻🌷🪻🌷🪻🌷🪻🌷🪻

Break!

🪻🌷🪻🌷🪻🌷🪻🌷🪻🌷🪻🌷🪻🌷🪻🌷🪻

Okay, this is here because this is getting long, but I don’t want to make it a two-parter, but also sometimes people need to take a break and breathe, you know?

I will also be concentrating more on post One More Day Harry in this section, though referring back to earlier comics as well. I will also be talking more about sex and romantic relationships, and how Harry's focus on his father (and Norman seeing himself as the most important person in Harry’s life) complicates things.

The Dan Slott and Joe Kelly runs leading up to and during Dark Reign were the first Spider-Man comics I read, and these were the issues where I first got to see the Osborns' relationship on page. What really struck me then about the relationship was how Norman talks to Harry more like a separated spouse than his grown child: 'I need you,' 'the world could be ours,' 'come home,' 'your place is here, by my side.'

During this period, Harry is pulling away from his father and trying to be independent, and Norman does not like this at all. He mocks Harry’s business ventures, then bombs Harry’s place of business - almost killing Harry’s then girlfriend Lily Hollister in the process. When Harry goes to confront him, Norman says that girlfriends are replaceable and tries to win Harry back. This, however, does not work, and shortly following this, Harry goes no contact.

Norman will not accept this boundary, however, or any boundary really. He admitted earlier to recording and listening to all of Harry’s therapy sessions, and when Harry won't answer his calls or letters, Norman has people spy on his son and report to him on everything Harry is doing. He then gets himself invited to a wedding that Harry is attending.

This is when he tells Harry that he needs him, something that does visibly affect Harry. Peter steps in between Harry and Norman, and tells Norman 'and that's what therapy's for.'

This scene is interesting because Norman does not like admitting that he needs other people, but also because Peter doesn't consider this (entirely) as a ploy on Norman’s part. He does think that Norman is being honest about 'needing' Harry. He just thinks that the way Norman seeks support from his son is unhealthy.

There is also an 'us'-ness in the Norman-Harry relationship, that is more typical of couples. This along with how Harry is thrust into this nurturing role with Norman, makes him (at times) seem more like his father’s spouse than his son.

And when Harry and Norman do end up cutting ties, Harry even says: 'I was never your son.'

◇ Amazing Spider-Man #573 - Dan Slott /John Romita Jr. || Amazing Spider-Man #595 - Joe Kelly/Phil Jimenez || Amazing Spider-Man #598 || Writer: Joe Kelly/Artists: Paulo Siqueira & Marco Checchetto || Amazing Spider-Man #599 - Joe Kelly/Stephen Segovia, Marco Checchetto, Paulo Siqueira ◇

This relationship with his father - before the eventual break up - does also lead to problems in Harry’s romantic relationships.

Because Norman basically sees himself as the centre of the universe and because he is very possessive of the people around him, Harry grew up internalising this idea that he belongs to his father and that he should prioritise Norman above everything else.

And because of this, Harry does tend to elevate and choose his father over his other relationships. Like how when he was seeing Mary Jane Watson, that relationship ended because Harry wouldn’t unlock the door for her - choosing to be alone with his dead father's costume over being with her. His marriage with Liz also deteriorates as Harry obsesses over avenging his father's death and continuing the Osborn legacy.

Of note, in these moments Harry isn't exactly thinking clearly - there are definitely signs of psychic breaks, with Harry having delusions and hallucinations. Still, a huge part of Harry's psyche is consumed by his father - to the detriment of other aspects of his life.

Even after Harry sees Norman as a bad person (acknowledging that his father was Gwen's killer and knowing for sure that Norman has committed countless other heinous crime), Norman still has a hold over his son. Harry still holds out hope for winning his father's love and approval - and completely dismisses his then girlfriend Lily Hollister's encouragement and support. Instead focusing entirely on his father's criticisms.

◇Amazing Spider-Man #595 - Joe Kelly/Phil Jimenez || Amazing Spider-Man Family #4 - J.M. DeMatteis/Val Semeiks || Amazing Spider-Man #390 - J.M. DeMatteis/Mark Bagley◇

◇Amazing Spider-Man #126 - Gerry Conway/Ross Andru || Spectacular Spider-Man #189 - J.M. DeMatteis/Sal Buscema || Amazing Spider-Man #569 - Dan Slott /John Romita Jr.◇

Another thing involving Lily Hollister - a rather controversial decision - was to have her be in sexual relationships with both Harry and Norman Osborn (with the timing being so close together that the paternity of her child was called into question.)

I actually don't think it's so surprising that Norman would go after someone his son was seeing. He is very self-centred and delusion enough to think that he could somehow get away with it.

Also, back in Amazing Spider-Man #96, there was this whole thing about Harry bringing along Norman to watch the girl he was then seeing - Mary Jane Watson - dance. It kind of comes across like Harry is trying to impress his father with how hot his 'girlfriend' is, and Norman is quite publicly enchanted by her.

There is something similar in the Raimi adaption where Harry Osborn wants Mary Jane Watson to dress in black (like Harry’s mother/Norman’s wife used to do) because he wants Norman to be impressed by her/find her attractive. Which people have pointed out is kind of weird/creepy.

Also kind of weird is just how much empathy Harry has towards Lily Hollister after she ditches him for his dad. Like yes, I think it's a coercive relationship, and Norman is much more to blame, but I still think most people would be a little more angry in this situation. And what Harry does say to Lily at the start of her and Norman's relationship is very interesting to me:

'He's an amazing man, Lily...I know, and he takes very special care of his "nice things"...until he doesn't.

I hope you see him for what he is before that happens...

Because when Norman Osborn is through with you, no one gets to have you.'

One) because it's really quite strange to call the father you suspect is sleeping with your ex-girlfriend 'an amazing man'

Two) because the way Harry is saying this makes it seems like it applies to both her and him. The 'I know' in particular stands out, because what he seems to be saying is 'I know exactly what you are feeling/going through right now.'

Which given that she is in 'romantic' relationship with his father certainly raises questions.

◇Amazing Spider-Man: Extra! #3 - Joe Kelly/Dale Eaglesham || Amazing Spider-Man #96 - Stan Lee/Gil Kane◇

In any case, I could probably write more, but this post is already more than long enough. I just find the dynamic between Norman & Harry Osborn fascinating because I don’t think it's one we see as often in fiction, and I love reading about dysfunctional families/relationships.

I also find post-OMD Harry really interesting, because I think it's even rarer to see a person, who was in a relationship like this, have to move on, fully cut ties, and figure out how to build a life for themselves without this person (who they had such codendency with.)

#harry osborn #norman osborn #analysis #spider man #peter parker #gwen stacy #liz allan #lily hollister #marvel comics #marvel 616 #my post

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wolvierinez · 2 months

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i kind of feel like dick grayson is in a very weird place rn just from what ive seen when ive dared venture outside of my circles

like.

hes sexualised a lot, something i can trace back to devins run on him that sexualised him and his romani identity (which she introduced and then stopped wanting to research after a few issues) and how it's still prevalent in fandom spaces for people to characterise dick as some kind of hot blooded "gypsy" to objectify. and sometimes people are obvious about what stereotypes about us they're reducing us down to but sometimes its a lot more covert until it hits you in the face and you realise this person is racist and doesn't view your people as anything other than something "exotic" to fantasise about while ignoring us and our struggles irl.

but in those same spaces there are people saying he's white/gadjo/not romani at all, Actually, and his sexualisation Totally isn't linked to ideas introduced by a very racist writer. that No One is sexualising him because of his heritage and its purely because of his ass or something, or because he's good looking and implying that some of it just might be linked to racism is wrong and bad. that he's "bad romani rep" because writers refuse to give us anything Substantial about his heritage or DC doesnt hire romani editors or writers or sensitivity readers to make sure they're doing things okay. i dont even necessarily think he's bad rep like ive seen some people say i just think he needs an actual arc or a substory addressing how hes disconnected from his heritage but is working to find out more or something.

but it's just kind of. frustrating to exist in this fandom as a romani nightwing fan because there are some people who think he's also good rep! great rep that you aren't allowed allowed criticise At All when we're literally getting crumbs. "beautiful romani smile" .

i just think dc should do more in a respectful manner and fans should stop stereotyping him as some kind of seducer because its weird and as someone who's read comics the only place i can tell where you could possibly get that from is devins run or fanfics written by people who don't read comics and reduce the characters down into famously incorrect tropes.

CANNOT BELIEVE I HAVE TO SAY THIS BUT I DONT WANT PROSHIPPERS INTERACTING WITH THIS POST.

#g slur #dick grayson #dc comics #nightwing #idk how well this is worded but im sick i napped i woke up mad at the world.#and most of these opinions i mentioned are from people who. arent romani! is anyone surprised.

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ryleigh130 · 2 months

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Okay, I wanna request something sweet and lighthearted since there has been angst in all of them so far 😭

So here is it: ghost with a young reader who's new to the team and cleary looks up to him a lot. Like, starryeyed expression when he kills someone in a "badass way", tries to do things the way he does, is quick to question other people but when he tells them something it's just "got it" and takes it for a fact, follows all his orders immediately, etc

They basically act like a kid around their idol, idk XD platonic of course

Little Duckling - - ryleigh130

Characters- ghost, mentioned: cap. price, gaz, and soap

Word Count: 1k

Relationships- platonic!ghost & gn! reader

Warnings- profanity, pet names, 3rd person pov, usage of c/n [code name/call sign]

Note- Thank you so much for the request! I hope you enjoy it! Prob a little OOC but I tried ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Also I HATE the ending so we can just ignore that but I literally had no clue how to end it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Task Force 141 operated in the shadows, a clandestine unit of elite soldiers executing covert missions with lethal precision. Among them was you, [c/n]. You’re the newcomer to the team with a solid reputation after graduating top of your class for your stealth and deadly accuracy. But, with being the newbie on the team it left you feeling lost and little loney. The team made sure you felt welcomed but even so, you still felt out of place in the big leagues with some soldiers being almost twice your age. You yearned for a connection, a friend, someone who you could share your woes with, a soul in the unforgiving world of warfare.

You had joined the task force with a singular purpose - to prove yourself. You had trained relentlessly, honing your skills to perfection, but the weight of expectation bore heavily on your shoulders. Surrounded by seasoned veterans, each with their own tales of heroism and glory, you felt like a mere shadow in comparison.

But amidst the sea of faces, there was one who stood out - Ghost, the enigmatic figure cloaked in mystery and intrigue. From the moment you set foot in the base, you were captivated by him, drawn to his aura of quiet strength and unwavering resolve. Where others would turn away, you would draw nearer. You couldn’t explain it but to you, Ghost radiated safety and comfort so, you started to seek him out. You began to think of Ghost as more than just a teammate; he was a mentor, a brother almost, a guiding light in the darkness of uncertainty.

Despite your initial standoffish demeanor towards the rest of the team, you found yourself gravitating towards Ghost, seeking his attention like a moth to a flame. You watched him with a mixture of awe and admiration, hanging onto his every word with rapt attention. To you, Ghost was the epitome of everything you aspired to be - skilled, fearless, and utterly unyielding in the face of danger.

It wasn't long before your admiration for Ghost became apparent to the rest of the team. You would often be seen hovering at Ghost's side, offering to assist him with tasks or simply basking in his presence. The others found it amusing, the way you looked up to Ghost with such reverence, they often teased you about it on the strange occasions you weren’t seen with him.

“Well, well, well, look who it is, the little shadow” Gaz would tease with Soap right behind him,

“Where’s Ghost today? You’re usually so far up his ass we barely ever see you!” You responded to these comments with a simple eye roll and a classy middle finger, to which they would reply by laughing. Captain Price would even sometimes make little comment on your infatuation with the lieutenant,

“There’s the little duckling, is Ghost near I’ve been looking for him?”

Ghost, for his part, was initially taken aback by your adoration. Used to operating in the shadows, he was unaccustomed to being the object of someone's admiration. But there was something genuine about your reverence that touched him, a purity of spirit that he couldn't help but admire.

Over time, Ghost began to warm to you, offering guidance and encouragement whenever you sought it and occasionally referring to you as “duckling” in a somewhat affectionate manner. He saw potential in you, a spark of brilliance that only needed to be nurtured to flourish. And so, he took you under his wing, teaching you the tricks of the trade and imparting his wisdom with a patience born of experience.

Your bond deepened with each passing mission, forged in the crucible of conflict and tempered by the fires of adversity. You looked to Ghost not just as a mentor, but as a confidant, a trusted ally in a world fraught with uncertainty. And Ghost, in turn, found solace in your unwavering loyalty, a beacon of light in the darkness that surrounded them. You both might not have noticed, but you have each helped heal something inside both of you. Together you work each day to heal the past inside both of you and overcome the challenges the day presents you, and you wouldn’t have it any other way.

#cod mw2 #john price #john soap mactavish #kyle gaz garrick #fanfic #simon ghost riley #fluff

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tenpintsofsundrop · 8 months

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Reader refused to sleep in her and Spencer’s apartment when he was arrested. She let their son and daughter sleep over at JJ’s house. She slept on the couch in Aaron’s office- when she slept. When they finally got him out they only made it to their SUV before they made up for lost time.

TLDR; Please don't just copy/paste the same requests and send them to a bunch of different fanfiction writers.

Okay so I don't really know how to go about saying this because I don't want to shame anyone or make them feel bad. Especially not people who have followed me for a long time and admire my writing.

When I first read this, I thought that it seemed oddly familiar to me.

So I tried looking in the Spencer x reader tags and I couldn't see the fic I had previously scrolled by.

So I copy/pasted this prompt into google, and I found a fic that I know was from a different author (because the one I scrolled by had a Spencer pfp and this one had a Steve Harrington pfp) that was from all the way back in 2021. And they had even answered a different request like one of the ones you copy/pasted to me.

Also: I don't have the links to those exact fics because I was just randomly scrolling through the mobile browser tumblr on my phone (and like I said, one of them I couldn't find but I know I saw it the other day) - but if you have seen those fics or know those writers, please go show their fics some love! I bet they worked hard on those requests and they deserve a lot of love for their fics.

I haven't stated this anywhere in my request rules, because I never felt the need to, but there is a certain etiquette around sending requests to fanfiction writers. And because I am old school fandom, I thought that I would never have to outright explain that kind of etiquette. Stuff like: a request is a request, not an order. Don't hound an author to get your requests finished. A request is more like a collaboration on an idea than it is a command to action.

And I think one of the etiquette bits around sending requests is that you shouldn't send the same exact requests word for word to a bunch of different fanfiction writers because it seems rude.

When you send someone a req, it's because you're saying "hey, I really like your writing! I like your style, the way you write these characters. I have an idea in my head for this fandom and because I admire your talent, I think that you could do it best." It's like going to a bakery because you think that they have the best chocolate chip cookies. A lot of places make chocolate chip cookies, but that one bakery makes them in a way that you think is the best.

Sending the exact same copy/pasted request to multiple writers sends multiple covert messages.

1) The person who did it the first time didn't do it up to your standards.

I have had requests filled before. It's rare that I request fanfiction, but when I have and someone has answered it, it has made me feel insanely special. And I treasure those fics (unfortunately a lot of the ones I reqd are on dead platforms now) and I go back and reread them over and over again.

So when you send a request to someone and they actually take the time to write out a whole fic answering it, and then you copy/paste that exact same request to another fanfic author - you are basically saying that the first person (in this case, at least two people with ^^^ this prompt) didn't do it correctly. That their fanfiction for your request wasn't up to your standards and you need to see it done again by someone else in a different way.

If that wasn't the case, you would simply treasure the original fanfiction that answered the request, reread it over and over again, and then go back to that original author with more different requests when they have their reqs open.

2) You are saying that you are too impatient to wait for your request to be finished.

I have seen times where someone copy/pastes the same request in different authors inboxes within the same week, basically just seeing who will finish the fanfiction first. Which is ... very annoying. If you enjoy an author's work and respect their time, then you will wait patiently for them to finish writing your request.

For me personally - I don't finish all requests. Which brings me to my third point.

3) Write it yourself.

If you are so passionate about this idea that you feel the need to see it written by different fanfiction authors multiple times, then please, write it yourself. All the details will be satisfying and exactly as you imagined them in your head.

There has been multiple times in my life when I have had a good idea for a fic and I have been so tired, and I considered taking that idea to another writer's inbox, but I knew that they wouldn't write it exactly as it was in my head - because HELLO - we are all individual artists with our own unique visions. So I just wrote it myself and wrote all the details as I imagined them and I was so much happier.

And that's how I grew my talent as a fic writer. By practicing writing my own ideas instead of just waiting for someone else to feed me the fanfiction I want. And now, whenever I want a hyper specific fanfiction that is not in the tags - I just write it.

But like PLEASE understand that fanfiction writers are not "content creators". We are not some big corporations like Netflix that has so much time and energy to pour into making this stuff - we are human. And it hurts to see you just feeding the exact same ideas to everyone else, because it means you don't value our work as individuals.

(Idk what I'm gonna do with the rest of the stuff in my inbox that you obviously sent. One of them really appealed me so idk.)

Anyway - Sundrop out ☀️💧

#anonymous #sundrop answers #requests #requesting #criminal minds #criminal minds fanfiction #spencer reid x reader #spencer reid x you

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yooniesim · 2 years

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I've seen a lot of people over the past couple days discussing patreon early access and whether or not it's included under ea's new policy. Most seem to agree that exclusive/perma-paywall models are bad, and a lot of people seem okay with early access. So I thought I'd share just why I don't really approve of the early access model either.

1) Trusting patreon creators (in the sims community) with your private information is a risk. Unfortunately, it's been shown by exclusive and early access creators alike that it simply isn't safe to trust them with your info. Eacc creators (not just exclusive) have communicated with each other about those that have shared their content early, and the info they have can include usernames, email addresses, real names, and possibly even paypal information if you have it linked to your patreon account. Users have been doxxed and harassed over sims cc of all things. I, personally, don't feel I can pledge to anyone safely anymore, whether they're following the old 2-3 week early access model or not.

2) There is no quality control. There is no way to determine what you're going to get before you pay for it, and if it's not good quality, you're most likely not going to get a refund. Patreon doesn't make creators refund you, they have to decide to do it on their own. So you can have mods that don't work, ridiculous high poly meshes, no proper LODs, low quality textures, etc and you're stuck with that.

3) There are no standards. People on here argue a lot about what should be charged for and what shouldn't, because there's no consistent standard for what is acceptable or not. Should sims/tray files be early access? Recolors? Conversions? Only mesh edits? What about tiny mesh edits? Is it the time alone that matters? But if that's the case, how much time should a creator have to spend on something for it to be worth paying for? There's no agreement, and so what people will put behind a paywall gets more and more ridiculous over time.

4) New (and some old) accounts making patreons without interacting with the community in any other way besides making money off them. There's no standard for who should make an account and when, so a lot started out just with the sole intention of making money. Also, there are older creators that tapered off their interactions with the community to purely focus on patreon. Early access took over the community so completely because it was easy and anyone could do it, and so they did. This only furthered the problems with quality and standards of cc.

5) Early access creators becoming exclusive over time after they built a following. Also, other shady methods to make more money I've discussed in other posts, such as: making super tiny edits look more enticing by lumping them together in "add-on packs", linking their "free" content through link shorteners/simsfinds/tsr, steadily raising tier prices in order to access all of their content, releasing a piece of cc for early access then coverting the same piece of cc to another frame and putting it under early access again, increasing the early access time period or "forgetting" to unlock things on time, and more. All of this just shows me that many early access creators aren't much better than the exclusive creators. They're toeing the line to stay in the public favor, and perhaps avoid legal consequences, and nothing more.

6) Shifting the focus in the community from creativity to monetary gain. Modding communities (such as those for the Sims, TES, Fallout, Dragon Age, Stardew Valley, and many many more) are built upon learning from one another and working together to enhance the gaming experience. In other words, to have fun! Modders have done amazing things without having the goal of making money off of it, and while it's nice to have that as an option, the sims community shows that it winds up hurting more than it helps when it consumes to this extent. I've talked about this before so I won't go into it too much, but creators are burned out and tired, and other simmers are frustrated and bored. It changed the community as a whole and it shows.

As a concept, early access is fine, but in practice... when everyone is doing it, in so many different ways, with no sense of standards... it becomes a problem.

#text #ceci speaks #ceci speaks a lot more #long post #the patreon issue #nonsims #saviorhide

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darlin-djarin · 8 months

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TBH my biggest problem with the walks between both worlds line is that to me it lowkey implies that it would be impossible for someone who follows Din's version of the creed to reunite Mandalore. That taking off the helmet is required to be a good Mand'alor. Although that could be me being pessimistic

ohhh interesting, i’ve never thought about it like that, but i understand what you mean. i have mixed feelings about the “walk between worlds” line because a lot of people are using it to justify that din should take off the helmet, when it was SO clear on screen that he is not that type of mandalorian, and that his creed means everything to him (besides grogu). i understand your thinking on how it’s like “oh well in order to be a good mand’alor you MUST walk both worlds and freely remove the helmet”, but i think of it more like: this is bo-katan. she walks both worlds, she understands the different ways of the creed, and therefore she can help unite the different sects of mandalorians together because she’s experienced all their ways of life.

while i do still like. not approve of bo being mand’alor (yet. if they had more depth to her and didn’t totally erase her past to make her seem like a white savior disney princess and actually made her do something honorable and worthy of the title, then MAYBE i would’ve been okay with it, but i still miss mand’alor din djarin for alternate reasons), i understand the intention of what the line “walk between both worlds” means, but my biggest issue is how people warp that line around so much to try to justify going against din’s version of the creed, when it was made SO clear that his covert is not a cult and that they are just a deeply religious orthodox group who invested further in their religion to keep themselves safe from the rest of the world that was out to get them.

see i don’t mind bo-katan BEING the person who walks between worlds. i actually don’t mind that at all, i love it even. because after she joined the covert (on accident), it opened her eyes to the different ways of life that the mandalorian sects experience and it made her realize that her view of what she previously considered was a “cult” was wrong, and that they were just a desperate people clinging onto a desperate way of life that they considered was sacred. she UNDERSTOOD then, and THAT’S why she walks between worlds.

MY issue is that while bo-katan walks in between worlds, she hasn’t done anything genuinely worthy enough, in my opinion, to earn back the title of mand’alor. she’s lost the darksaber like, what, 3 times? she’s a terrorist, she’s reckless, she’s brash, emotional, messy. that’s what i like about her. she’s just a whole mess, and i thought she’d start to learn that maybe her role WASN’T to lead mand’alor. maybe it was to join together the warring tribes and sects, but not genuinely lead. i feel like she’d be great advising, or being in charge of their forces, or just bringing the different tribes together (since we ALL know no one is gonna listen to djarin’s awkward ass), but genuinely being mand’alor? i haven’t seen anything worthy enough from her, yk what i’m saying? if favroni had actually made her address her past, bring up satine, etc etc and make her actually DO something that made her worthy, then i wouldn’t be complaining NEARLY as much (i’d still be complaining bc this is DIN’S show and the whole plot of him getting the darksaber makes no sense if he’s just gonna give it back to her anyway, but that’s another story).

anyway i feel like i veered off track but i understand what you mean anon, i just think our interpretations differ and that’s totally valid. this is just my opinion on that line “walks between both worlds” etc etc. if people have other interpretations that’s totally fine too.

#star wars #the mandalorian #din djarin #bo katan kryze #oil.

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mastermindlor · 8 months

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On Theo Raeken and Manipulation

Introduction:

The purpose of this is to explore what manipulation really does and the effects it can have on people – especially young children. And, as should be no surprise to anyone, it is also an ode to Theo Raeken. A defense of Theo Raeken, if you will. I’ll be referencing three scholarly articles, one Tumblr post, and the show Teen Wolf (obviously). But, I will admit, most of this is speculative. I’m going to try hard to keep it to canon, but I know my bias is going to be in there. But instead of stating it as fact, I’ll ask open-ended questions you can feel free to fight with me about. But this really isn’t the post I intended on making. I intended to write a pure essay on defending Theo Raeken, but that’s been done before no one listens. I thought I’d switch it up and put my Psychology degree to good use, finally. Okay, that’s enough introduction. Let’s roll.

Who is Theo Raeken?

If you don’t know, you should probably stop reading unless you really care about manipulation and its effects. I’m writing this assuming you know who Theo Raeken is and why he needs defended.

Definitions of Manipulation

All of this comes from https://www.researchgate.net/publication/344540018_PSYCHOLOGICAL_ASPECTS_OF_MANIPULATION_WITHIN_AN_INTERPERSONAL_INTERACTION_MANIPULATIONS_AND_MANIPULATORS. They refer to different types of manipulation, and use other terms for it occasionally. They start by defining “influence during interaction” – a subtype of manipulation – from psychological dictionaries as “a process when an individual is changing the behavior of another person as well as his/her attitudes, intentions, ideas, as a result of the person’s activity.” Cause and effect changes occur in the person’s mind, such as psychological characteristics of the individual*, group norms, public opinion, et cetera. Psychological impact can be explicit or implicit, depending on whether the goals of the manipulator are communicated in advance and not hidden. This is clearly the case in season 5 – Theo knows all about the Dread Doctors’ plan – but whose to say it was always like this? You can assume perhaps it was, if he knew what he was doing it for when he took Tara’s heart. But just because they told him one thing doesn’t mean they told him everything – did he know of their master plan when he was 8/9/10 (I wish canon gave us an actual age)? We have no way of knowing this, so for the sake of this article we’re going with the assumption both occurred at different stages. But implicit (covert) psychological influence emphasizes its destructive characteristics. Meaning, manipulation, at its core, can be positive or negative, depending on what the person is being manipulated to do. But obviously Theo wasn’t selected to do benevolent things, so we can get a sense of implicit manipulation here.

There is a latent impact in manipulation that can make the victim susceptible to pursuing various goals and intentions of the initiator. I talked to Des (the wonderful @bendystrah) about this particular point. Once again, what we know about Theo’s childhood is very limited. We don’t know what all he did for the ten-ish years he was with them. We don’t know what all they did to him. We don’t know a lot. But this point is saying the victim can be persuaded into doing what the perpetrator wants, even if they’re not their own goals or intentions. I bring up this point for a reason. We all know in season 5 he was acting on his own free will most of the time (does he even have free will still? Or has it been totally warped and convoluted?), but we know little about what happened with Tara. We know how she died, and why she died, and who is responsible for her death (well, I’m about to refute that one actually). What we don’t know is if Theo woke up one morning and went, “Huh, I kinda want Tara’s heart actually.” You can hate Theo and claim he did, but again, we have zero evidence that points to the fact Theo was already an evil child. We all know he was being visited by the Dread Doctors before Tara’s death, so I think it’s pretty obvious they were the ones who wanted Tara’s heart to make Theo a genetic chimera. Why her heart? Why them? We don’t know that, but we do know their goals and intentions – to make Theo a genetic chimera – and they get Theo to do the dirty work for them for whatever reason. So, in this point, I am claiming it’s possible Theo was completely manipulated into doing this and didn’t have any intentions of ever doing it until he was visited by the Dread Doctors. I mean, this is literally laid out in 5x16, so I’m just talking to talk. If you aren’t insane like me and don’t remember every Theo scene in an episode by just its number, it’s where he’s talking to Stiles in the sewers.

STILES: The guy who murdered his own sister when he was nine?

THEO: Yeah, I was nine years old. I also believed a guy in a red suit came down the chimney to deliver presents. So when three people in leather masks showed up and said that my sister wanted me to have her heart, I believed them, too.

So we know what the goals and intentions of the Dread Doctors are. It’s not hard to assume Theo is telling the truth in this scene (for a number of different reasons, including why lie and it lines up nicely with our theory), and, if he is, it goes to show he was psychologically influenced into doing this.

Furthermore, manipulation is always negative. Even if the goals were altruistic – which they are clearly not here – the process of manipulation is a negative one. This doesn’t really tie into our thesis here, but it is important to note.

The object of manipulation is viewed “as a means of achieving one’s own goals . . . without taking into account the interests, will, desire of the other side.” Meaning: the Dread Doctors didn’t care what Theo wanted. He was not their equal. They didn’t sit around a table and gently ask Theo what his interests, will, and desire was. We’ll never know Theo’s true interests, will, and desire before it was warped* into something else.

Okay, this next point is a bit complicated and is giving me a little bit of a headache (and I’m also a little high, which is so fun to admit to in an essay). But basically, “the manipulative impact focused on personality structures is characterized by the actualization of an interpersonal conflict, when the recipient of the manipulation is held responsible for the choice made through suffering in doubt.” So let’s break that down. That’s basically saying, there’s an impact of manipulation in which the victim is held responsible for what they did while being manipulated and thus feels interpersonal conflict. And obviously Theo is. No one ever argues the point that he killed his sister. And I’m not claiming otherwise, so don’t come at me yet, but this definition is claiming the victim of the manipulation is not at fault for their actions, but the person manipulating them is. And, as a result of this, the victim has interpersonal conflict. I mean, do I even need to say it? Theo’s entire Hell is this interpersonal conflict. To continue, it is claimed that “this type of manipulation the exploitation of the personality, because here . . . the desire [is] to shift the responsibility for the committed actions to the recipient, while the manipulator gets the win.” Once again, this claims the victim is not responsible for their actions, but the perpetrator(s) of the manipulation is. Now is where it gets tricky, and starts to give me a headache. It is said in these cases “it is extremely important for the manipular to create an illusion of choice for the agent of influence” and “when a person is sure that he/she is acting of his/her own free will, he/she will do much more than when he/she knows that he/she is fulfilling someone else’s decisions imposed on him/her.” Okay. I took a break (finally) and now I’m back. Knuckles cracked and everything. So, what this is talking about is when the manipulator wants something but, for whatever reason, doesn’t want to do it themselves and thus use the victim as a conduit to carry out their crime. They make it feel like the victim’s idea, because this makes the victim more likely to do it. I talked to Des about this one too, and what conclusion I came to was how this could possibly – possibly, still no coming at me yet – be the case with Theo’s desire to kill Scott. We know Theo wants Scott dead for his powers. But do the Dread Doctors also want him dead? That, here, is the key question. Me and Des think yes, as having Scott out of the way would make their work easier. But they don’t care so much that they’ll do it themselves. But what if they, really, want Theo to kill Scott? We don’t know if they do or don’t, so we can’t say for sure either way. I’ve done a little research on this but can’t seem to find any solid conclusions on the matter (trust me when I say I looked). So this one isn’t really sturdy, but it’s an interesting theory that the Dread Doctors allowed Theo to feel like he was making his own choices when really he was just helping the Dread Doctors carry out their plans. Maybe they, too, wanted the chaos and discord within the Pack. Now, obviously bringing the Chimeras back wasn’t their goal – hello, why kill them, then? – but I believe they also could’ve stopped Theo had they wanted to. They could’ve stopped Theo from doing anything if they had wanted to. The fact that they didn’t doesn’t point to them being nice and chill and just letting Theo do what he wants. To me, this is more likely stemming from the fact that, somehow, this all fit into their master plan – or, at least, didn’t interfere with it. But, like I said, if they wanted to stop Theo from doing any of this, they could’ve. Which makes me wonder if Theo’s free will wasn’t as free as it appears.

This article also mentions how authority is a particularly sound influence, but I will also explore a similar topic later on so I won’t bother with it now.

*This definition refers to the fact manipulation can cause changes in the psychological characteristics. Now, as a later source mentions, we will never know the full story of Theo’s childhood. All we know is what the show tells us, which isn’t a lot. But we can assume he wasn’t, like, one of those “evil children” who were just “born that way.” Because Scott or Stiles would’ve mentioned that, if he’d gone around killing animals or something. You can argue they didn’t know, but we also have literally zero evidence that he did do anything like that, so it’s a weird assumption to make. He had asthma, and played Little League, and no one ever mentions anything blaringly wrong with his early childhood. What I’m getting at here is a change in psychological characteristics. Maybe Theo was evil before, and that’s why the Dread Doctors targeted him. Or maybe he wasn’t, and went through actual psychological changes in his characteristics which caused him to act differently than he ever would have had he not been put on this path.

*In season 5, his interests, will, and desire are having a Pack and having power. These are his intentions and goals. First of all, I want to note that none of his goals are “murder.” Does murder fall into his plan? Absolutely. He’s clearly very much okay with it. But it’s not like his motivations are as shallow as “killing is fun!” He has reasons to kill Tracy and Josh, and reasons for wanting Scott dead. You can argue what he did to Scott was the worst thing he did, because he killed him out of emotion, not gaining anything from it. I know I’m basically saying premeditated murder is better, but that’s not what I mean. I just mean it isn’t like he originally set out to kill people for a good time. Killing people just happened to be the way to get what he wanted. Furthermore, who knows what his intentions would’ve been had he not lived the life he did? His intentions were formed as reactions. Wanting a Pack was a response to, well, not having one. And wanting power was a response to having none. If he’d been able to live a normal life, there’s no reason to assume he would’ve ever had aspirations like that.

Who is Manipulated?

Everything in this section comes from https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8905186/. This article, actually, does not explore the heading at all. It explores radicalization in a religious sense in prisoners who were manipulated. But, the data in the article made it worth using for our purposes here. Starting with the fact “that the process of radicalization follows several phases, during which the recruiters indoctrinate and prepare young people for the use of violence.” And that sentence is what this section is really about: youth. This section will demonstrate how crucial of a factor age is, and what that says about Theo.

“According to this model, recruiters identify their targets in vulnerable contexts.” What this means is that the victim is usually already vulnerable in the eyes of the manipulator. Now, we don’t know why the Dread Doctors chose Theo. We know, like, three things about his early childhood, and none of those three things are even his age. But one of the three things is that he had asthma. Okay, you say, so did Scott. Well, maybe the Dread Doctors were looking for someone who had asthma and also a sibling. That sounds unlikely, but I’m simply illustrating the point that it is a possible weakness he had in his health, making him potentially already vulnerable. Or maybe he had shitty parents. Or maybe he had great parents. We don’t know anything else about his childhood. So we can’t really confirm this point, but what’s important is that we can also not deny it.

Next, “the first phase is psychological submission (emotional radicalization), whereby the young person loses their autonomy and becomes dependent.” Well, this is pretty obvious. The Dread Doctors took Theo away from his parents, and thus he became entirely dependent on them. What else is an 8/9/10 year old supposed to do? He has to depend on them, he has no other options. He can’t just depend on himself, because how is an 8/9/10 year old supposed to have or make money? How’s he supposed to eat? Where is he supposed to sleep? So, yeah, he’s dependent. But, this is also “achieved by using persuasive and aggressive communication strategies, such as social isolation and inducing confusion between reality and fantasy.” We definitely can check the social isolation. Now’s where one of the Tumblr articles comes in. In this post (https://demonzdust.tumblr.com/post/178486817906/part-i-introduction-theo-before-the-dread) the author states that, “We know that the Dread Doctors kidnap and experiment on people while they are still conscious. We also know that they are capable of inducing hallucinations. They can do all of this unbeknownst to others. That leaves them with a lot of tools to shape a young Theo into what they wanted.” I reference this post because it says what I wanted to say better and more succinctly than I could. Especially the part regarding the hallucinations, and how that ties into the article’s point about inducing confusion between reality and fantasy. Like we’ve said, we don’t know what all the Dread Doctors did to Theo. But it’s entirely possible they confused his reality and fantasy, at least for a period of time.

Now we get more into the actual article, which is about religious radicalization. But we’re going to spin this into a Theo context. “Finally, in the third phase of violent disinhibition and legitimization (violent radicalization), the recruit validates the use of violence by associating with the mistreatment and oppression allegedly suffered by their new group, identifies the enemy, and shifts responsibility by making an attack essential to improving their situation.” Okay, that was a lot of words. Let’s break it down. In short, for there to be violent radicalization, setting a clear enemy and making the victim feel like attacking that enemy is the only way to improve their situation must be present. This goes back to my earlier point about the Dread Doctors and possibly wanting Scott dead/chaos and discord in the Pack. Did the Dread Doctors convince him this Pack consisting of his old friends was the enemy? Did they make him think they needed to be disbanded for Theo to get his own Pack and the power he’s craving? We don’t know. We can’t say yes, but we also can’t say no.

Next is where we get into the youth aspect of this section. Youth is noted as “a particularly relevant stage in the radicalization process.” We know Theo is young. As young as 8 when this started, and around 18 during season 5. This article talks about 20-28 being young, so Theo would fall into the category of being extremely young. If youth is a relevant age in radicalizing 20-28 year olds, what exactly does it do to someone who might be 8 years old? The article continues by stating, “Age could be considered a risk factor for radicalization.” Which just means that Theo had a risk factor already before ever being visited by the Dread Doctors. Why? Why is being young more of a risk factor? Well, I’m glad you asked, because I have answers.

The experience of more extreme and variable emotions

Greater threat/stress sensitivity

Commitment with violence

Basically, young people experience more extreme and variable emotions due to “deficits in both emotional regulation and emotion reactivity (sensitivity).” This also applies to the second point, and why threat/stress sensitivity is greater. Now, the last part is more for adolescents than a child. But it states that the youth are more likely to engage in risky behaviors and commit more violence than other age groups. Now, these are not reasons Theo is the way he is. Everyone is a child/adolescent at some point. But these are risk factors, and they could have played a role in making Theo more susceptible to manipulation and violence.

Barely Even Human

Yeah, I know it was cruel to name this section that. But it fits. Everything in this section comes from https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ethics-manipulation/. This article defines manipulation as “radical programming or reprogramming of all or most of an agent’s beliefs, desires, and other mental states.” The thought is that “that manipulative influences bypass the target’s capacity for rational deliberation.” This is implying that the Dread Doctors and their manipulation of Theo could’ve bypassed his ability to really think about the choices he was making. This has long-lasting implications. If we believe this to be true, it is possible that the Theo we see simply doesn’t have a “capacity for rational deliberation.” Meaning, he acts in irrational ways, or ways that look irrational to others but seem rational to him because he lacks the ability to purposefully and calculatingly make decisions. Instead, he acts in a way that meets his most basic survival needs. And what does a wolf need? A Pack. And what does someone who has been manipulated for a decade need? Power. He needs a Pack and power, and thus those are his goals. Are they rationally deliberated goals? We don’t know, but this article suggests the possibility that the answer is no.

“Manipulation is commonly used aggressively, as a way to harm the manipulator’s target, or at least to benefit the manipulator at the target’s expense.” This point doesn’t have a lot to do with the points I’m making in this essay, but it does make me sad for Theo.

“Another natural way to account for the wrongness of manipulation would be to claim that it violates, undermines, or is otherwise antithetical to the target’s personal autonomy.” This is, more or less, what we talked about earlier. That Theo may never have made any of the decisions he made if not for the Dread Doctors. This implies none of this was done out of his own personal desire to do so, and that it may very well be things he never would have done otherwise. The article goes onto further state that, “It is natural to regard [manipulation] as interfering with autonomous decision-making. The idea that manipulation is wrong because it undermines autonomous choice is implicit in discussions of manipulation as a potential invalidator of consent.” Meaning, Theo’s consent wasn’t important during the time he spent with the Dread Doctors. The Dread Doctors didn’t take it into consideration. This doesn’t mean he actively did things he didn’t consent to doing, but it does bring up the possibility for further discussion.

Lastly, this article states that, “In this view, manipulation involves treating the target as a device to be operated rather than an agent to be reasoned with.” We already know the Dread Doctors viewed Theo as an object. Whether he could be a success or a failure. They never cared about him as a person, merely as a tool to do things they couldn’t/didn’t want to do. If you view Theo this way – as a device to be operated – it takes away some of the blame placed upon him for his actions. He was wound up and made to go, simply put.

Conclusions

TL;DR: Manipulation is bad. Don’t do it. Theo was manipulated, and primed to be so because of his status as a youth. In this essay, we explored his actions and the possibilities behind why they occurred. Our conclusions are that it’s entirely possible he was completely manipulated by the Dread Doctors and thus acted as a puppet whilst they pulled the strings.

If you disagree with anything I said, let me know. But not just in a “screw you you’re stupid” way. Let’s have an actual conversation.

I hope you enjoyed this at least a little bit, or learned something from this. This is Kay, signing off (for now . . . ).

xoxo, kay

#theo raeken #teen wolf #meta #babygirl

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fierceawakening · 28 days

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I see a lot of “don’t assume your family member who has mistreated you your whole life has narcissistic traits,’’ but, like… what are you actually asking me to do instead?

There’s usually some vague statement about how “that’s just an asshole,” but… okay. I think I already knew that, but what does that label help me to think about?

Like, if it might be narcissistic traits, the questions become things like

Do you feel she often empathizes with you, or do you frequently have to explain how you see or feel about things?

When you give those explanations, are they taken seriously?

Does she seem to want or need a lot of attention, compared to others you know?

What about compared to you? Are you allowed to sometimes want the same thing?

Does she assert that she’s smarter than others or better at things, but then fail when she tries to do them herself or always have some way to get out of doing them herself? (Grandiose type)

Does she say she’s good at things but no one sees her prove it, or that she never gets the benefit of the doubt, and that people do this to her more than to others? (Vulnerable/covert type)?

If she says she’s never given a chance as others are, do her explanations for why this happens to her so often make sense, or are they vague or contradictory?

Does she say things happened that didn’t, or frequently have accounts of events you both witnessed that are very different? Does she assert that her version happened and yours is crazy or wildly off?

Does she claim to know yourself better than you do?

Does she act entitled? Does she seem to think she should get or be given things that it would be nice if others did for her, but that aren’t generally required?

When you say she did something mean or disrespectful, does she tell you you are actually the one who did it?

All of these things are more helpful than “she’s an asshole” to me, because they help me to predict behavior, or to ask myself if I should understand events as she describes them if my recollection is different.

I dunno. I’m open to the idea that the people on YouTube, like Dr. Ramani, oversimply things sometimes. I think they do, actually!

But I’m not sure why people pointing that out treat people trying to understand harmful dynamics as if they should stop doing so, or find “asshole” sufficient when there are no clear criteria for “asshole” and no clear explanations for why “assholes” do this rather than that, etc.

(I also never see anyone address that “sense of entitlement” is in the criteria. It’s so odd. People will rant until their fingers cramp up about how shitty it is that Bezos or Musk is entitled and how much harm it does, but as soon as that’s, like, tumblr user aspdmalreynolds, they are a wet cat who has done no wrong and we love them.

And I’m just like guys, unearned entitlement is bad even if the person who acts like they have it is in your fandom, come on now.)

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thattheater-kid · 3 months

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I'm not sure if this will be received well but.. a couple years ago, I was talking to a friend after confiding in them that I would have issues with memory, I wouldn't remember doing or not doing something, and I remember this very specific experience where I felt.. (I'm assuming it was me) i felt like I wasn't myself, that I was an alien. In that short period of time, I didn't go by the name I went by then, and I remember feeling so, so scared. So frightened.

And they (someone with DID, diagnosed) told me "hey, this sounds a lot like it could be DID" and I was like "well.. maybe?" I believe I've had multiple alters (keyword: believe), and multiple instances of something similar happening, but now.. I can't hear anything. There's nobody talking besides me, it's radio silent. I fear so much everyday that I have been deluding myself and them and the people that I confided in that I may have the disorder. What if I'm wrong? What if I made it up? What if I subconsciously tricked myself and everyone around me? What if I lied to them? I can't face that. I can't face them knowing that I may have done that. I guess what I'm asking for here is.. advice. What would you do if you were in my shoes?

I'm sorry if this is a lot. I didn't know who else to ask.

I want to preface by saying that I can’t diagnose you or tell you whether you have DID or not. Only a doctor can do that for you. All I can do it give you some advice from my perspective.

A huge part of DID is that it hides itself from you, and if you start to discover it, it makes you think you were wrong. Denial is a big part of DID because it’s typically a covert disorder, which means it’s hidden. It hides itself from outsiders, and even from the host so you can try to live a normal life. It makes you believe you made it all up and you were lying to keep you in the dark. It was very difficult for our old host to discover things about the system because she kept forgetting it existed. It kept making her forget about it until she started writing things down to make sure she remembered. It’s completely possible for you to start finding out about your disorder, start noticing odd things, maybe even noticing other alters, and suddenly everything goes quiet and it’s just you because they’re trying to hide from you.

Also, if it turns out you really don’t have DID, don’t beat yourself up about saying you did. You thought you did. You completely believed you did, which means you weren’t lying or faking. You were trying to figure yourself out. There’s nothing wrong with that. You were just simply wrong about what was going on, and that’s okay. It’s okay to be wrong. Don’t feel bad about telling people you had a disorder you didn’t have if you really thought you had it. If you want to address it with the people you told, you can tell them it turns out you were wrong, or you just aren’t certain right now and are still exploring it.

The only true advice I could give about finding out if you have the disorder is to see a doctor, but I know that’s not possible for everyone, so that may not be possible for you at this time. The only other thing you can do is wait to see what happens and take notes of what you experience. You can try reaching out to alters, but they may not respond still. Especially when you’re just starting to discover your system, alters may disappear and hide to keep you from finding out about the system. If things start happening again that indicate you may have DID, then it’s possible you do have it or another dissociative disorder, like OSDD. If not, then you might have something else. Write down the things you experience. If you believe you interacted with an alter, write down that you did. It’ll help you remember and understand, and it can open the door for communication if you do have DID.

I believe what you experienced was real and valid. I believe you may be experiencing something. I don’t think you’re a liar, and you’re not a bad person for confiding in people about having a disorder and possibly turning out to be wrong. You trusted them, and were likely looking for support, and that’s actually a very good thing. Trust and support are necessary for everyone, but especially for systems and questioning systems. You were trying to understand yourself, and it’s okay to be wrong when you’re trying to understand yourself. I don’t know whether or not they’ll be mad at you (they shouldn’t be), but please remember that it’s not your fault and you didn’t do anything wrong.

Thank you for confiding in me. I wish you the best of luck, and I truly hope you find answers.

#plural #plurality #dissociative disorders #dissociative disorder #did #did osdd #osddid #system #systems #anon #anon asks #anon ask #answered anon

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gooopy · 1 year

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I think you were the one talking about Harry as a system? If so, please please please elaborate! I’ve considered and love the idea. Unfortunately tho I don’t know a lot about systems so I don’t want to say anything and be wrong or offensive.

Okay! Hi! I wrote a response to this but i had hit tumblrs post limit so it got obliterated! Hell and pain on planet earth!

Wanna preface this by saying i am just some guy and if you would like to know more, you are always allowed to do research on yoir own. Its sweet that you care so much about being respectful and its very appreciated!!

Im a system, or i at least got some system-esque stuff goin on. Heres some basics (youll see the parallels methinks teehee)

When someone faces childhood abuse or trauma, one of the ways the mind can protect itself is by splitting into parts, or alters. The most common primary goal of a system is to protect the host (the person who mostly owns the body) from more harm by any means possible. DID and other similar disorders are covert, and often hide because that is whats necessary for survival. For the host to be able to dissociate through trauma, for alters to step in to avoid more trauma, and to help the host survive the trauma. Often tjis comes with severe memory loss and time loss as alters step in to control a situation

Alters are as much their own guys as the host, and sometimes the host can change. An alter is put in charge and the previous host steps back and only comes around sometimes. If an alter is taking control, it means they are fronting. If an alter is kinda hangin back, commentating and only having some sway over what the body does, thats called Co-Con (cooperative consciousness, i believe) and i feel lile most of the time the skills in harrys brain are cocon

Now, i dont think tjis was the i tent of the game but how i interpret it and my own personal headcanons, i believe that the skills are all alters (plus limbic system, ancient reptillian brain, and any other of those dudes) and harry is the host. All the skills could have helped keep harry safez and alters can also form later in life.

Shivers may have formed to protect harry during winter. He says winters are hard, but they must be easier if you have the city telling you she loves you. Esperit helps keep track of his job and the people in it. Half life is scared, and wants to protect harry by any means possible. Electrochemistry works to make him happy the way they know how. They all work together to help protect him and make sure hes okay.

I feel like most of the time, harry is in control with the other skills being cocon, but there are moments where the skills take over (like savior faire 'teleporting' up the ladder) and i just. Like. Hes a system. To me. Okay????? Lmao.

Thank you for asking!!! I like this headcanon a lot

#harry du bois #disco elysium #dissociative identity disorder #its real 2 me

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starlitangels · 2 years

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Okay but empowered people have to have, like, their own movies, right? Like even if the studios are pretty indie and whatnot there’s gotta be movies made by empowered people for empowered people don’t you think? I mean, they don’t necessarily need CGI for a lot of special effects especially given Illusory magic can be seen on camera

Like. Gimme Psychokinetic boom mic and camera operators. Air and Water Elementals making real storms instead of using a rain machine. Fire Elementals making safe explosions to look cool walking away from. Earth Elementals temporarily altering a landscape so the actors can run over it easier. Telepaths reminding the actors their lines or blocking in the middle of a take and occasionally messing with them for a good blooper reel. Sonal Energetic score composers. Graviton Energetics making falling/flying stunts safer. Electro Energetics who make the most incredibly cinematic lighting. Fire Contra-Elementals making it possible to use actual snow and ice for filming winter scenes in the middle of summer. Ooh—Dreamwalkers doing pre-visualization presentations maybe?

Gimme empowered romcoms with goofy whacky magic shenanigans keeping the leading couple from confessing their feelings. Gimme a silly, satirical adaptation of Romeo and Juliet where House Capulet are Water Elementals and House Montague are Fire Elementals. Gimme shifters playing the big scary wolves in a movie but their tails give them away as having a great time to any shifter watching (not wagging, shifter actors are too good for that, but there’s a certain twitch other shifters recognize as “I love what I’m doing now!”). Gimme kids cartoons and Sesame Street talking about keeping covert in simple terms and teaching about magic much better than the DUMP videos. Gimme, like, the Nickelodeon and Disney Channel teenager shows about newly manifested adolescents learning about their powers (gimme several comedic-but-informational shows about humanborn teens trying to hide their magic—usually written by humanborn adults with the main character, of course, played by magic-born teenagers. The supporting cast of unempowered teens are also actually magic-born and they have fun pretending to be clueless about magic) that become memes in empowered internet spaces.

Just. Gimme empowered movies and shows. Please.

#Redacted ASMR #Redacted Audio #please

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grokebaby · 10 months

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Okay more attention for Mewmew as well time to make a wall of text talking about em.

Can you imagine how hard it must be to remain optimistic and cringily whimsical in a world like this? Especially with the kind of life Mewmew has faced? M joined the galactic alliance initially to, ykno, play heroics when times were different, mew was younger and the world felt easier to conquer (in the non evil way ofc). Then splash, witness mass death, large scale disasters and violence. Did you know Mewmew never told the alliance m had the normal cat form? That's how m was able to move on to a different, more peaceful life. Can you imagine the scoffs, eyerolls, condescendion and covert bullying one gets when they talk in Uwuish naturally, can you imagine trying to train yourself out of it? Out of the way you feel most comfortable talking in?

Quite literally hiding the softer side of yourself from others to remain strong and retain respect from your peers.

Evilicus was of course the meanest about any mannerisms or speech style Mew let slip but that'd be expected of a nasty personality like them. But the people who are supposed to work beside you, quipping about it even after knowing that that's just how you naturally talk, for some time now? Ouch.

Imagine, Mewmew having to exist beside stern serious faces who lament about the poor state of the world, as if it's the default? As if it's how it always will be? Imagine, being told how naive and, frankly, stupid you are for believing otherwise. "Maybe you're not suited to working here" they told mew, because m had the audacity to say No, the world is a very beautiful and hopeful place, and living beings don't naturally default to selfishness. No, not even demonic entities. "I'm sure-" Mew said, "I'm sure even Evilicus' goons laugh and live a little between battles, I'm sure of it! I'm sure they don't all hate the world and wish for destruction, of course they don't! I'm sure, many of them are scared and tired!"

"Well, that's too bad", they replied to Mew. "Doesn't change the situation, and there's nothing we can really do about it".

Yeah, obviously. But are you people allergic to acknowledging it? Stop celebrating over seas of corpses just because they belong to the opposing side. "They're monsters! We're allowed to feel accomplished for saving this lot!" - at the cost of lives. Thinking, feeling lives. "It's war. Get used to it"

"Maybe I don't want to get used to it.." Mew thought. Too late to back out just yet, though. Evilicus' powers grow by the day, and it's too big of a risk to ignore. "Just this one." Mew thought, "Just take care of this one, then you can leave and finally see a happy face around. Then you can rest. The world just needs to be saved, and this threat detained." m told mewself every night. Then - Maybe then, mew can go back to being ms most genuine self. The one that talks in nyas with a straight face.

Evilicus is defeated, great work team! Time to finish them.

What? Like, kill them?

Obviously. Imagine how much suffering Evilicus caused. Obviously kill them. They deserve it.

"Regardless of if they do -" Mew argued "It doesn't fix anything now! We need to focus on rehabilitation over punishment!"

Seriously, Mewmew? That's insulting.

"Is it..?" is it so insulting to want all life - evil, wicked, nasty life too, to have it's own value? No matter what? Does the value of your life decrease the more you hurt people? Is it really equality if your value can decrease through your actions? Is that humane?

"Just this one", mew thought. "Save one life more, and then you can go home and be done with it." save Evilicus, and that'll be the last heroic deed you do, Mew told mself. And then you'll have done enough world changing, and can focus on simply making people smile.

And that persistent, hardheaded mf kitty did it. Mewmew saved one more life, arguably the most wicked of all, the one least deserving of a hero. Rest well earned.

But it's not so cut and dry, is it? Nothing really is. Evilicus now lives - on unwanted time ofc. Someone doesn't simply disappear after being defeated (no matter how much they'd want to). Evilicus shows up, and of course, time to still help this one wicked, nasty life to carry on. Patch them up, feed them, and send them off again. Then Mewmew can rest easy once more, knowing m didn't leave a helpless person (a wicked, horrible person) to suffer and potentially, slowly die.

But it's not so simple, is it? It never fucking is. Evilicus is an asshole, frankly, and wears Mewmews patience to the minimum, even outright hurting em in the process. Why do you still bother. Why are you still so fucking kind. Aren't you tired of it.

And Mewmew says "No, I'm not. I won't get tired of being kind. That's impawsible!"

But nothing is impawsible, as Mewmew used to say.

However, it pays off, doesn't it? Imagine, being nice and decent to the worst person you know, it does actually make a difference. You can actually make a difference. Imagine. Evilicus can indeed feel remorse. You can't believe it either but it's happening?

Mewmew finally sighs a small sigh of relief. Maybe now, we can rest easy. Could you imagine?

#Mewmew Agricola #My ocs #Character notes #I love having unhinged rants about my ocs #About this fucking. Cat #My thoughts #Dark lord Evilicus #(holds my temples and stares) when.#When the. Kindness wins. Oigh

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princelydisaster · 9 months

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I have the inexorable urge to rant about a character I’m obsessed with that much of the fandom hates

Anyway fuck it.

I understand that a lot of people dislike Charles Quigley (for good reason) but I keep getting burned by finding fanfics and posts tagged with the character that only feature him to make fun of him or something

Honestly if you are writing a fanfic in the Harlots ‘verse and don’t want to include him, there is no shame in writing him out. (Or any other character for that matter.)

Have a throwaway line where someone says he went to visit a friend for a month or something.

That could also introduce things like more tension because Lydia might be more stressed / worried about having her precious baby mid 30s boy out of the house. Maybe she’s more prone to lashing out. Maybe she’s distracted and her rivals like Margaret get more bold about taking action against her.

It introduces a lot of interesting things that could work for a number of fanfic plots.

…Okay that’s it for people who don’t want to include him in fanfics, I’m gonna discuss things I think could be explored in fanfic below.

Note that because this show has a lot of interconnected characters I also talk a lot about Lydia, Emily, and Nancy for some reason.

TW: discussions of abusive relationships, incest, sex trafficking, kidnapping, murder (stuff that’s in the show)

I’ve seen someone say before that Charles is one of the few straight male characters on the show who’s important because of his part in fleshing out female characters via relationships.

I can see that. I think the nature of the show means that he as a man - a passive one at that - wouldn’t get a lot of screen time.

The point about him being important relationship wise is really interesting. Tbh, the early-mid season 1 interactions between Emily and Lydia remind me of the trope of a dad running to chase away his daughter’s boyfriend with a shotgun.

There’s that gender flipped part where women aren’t usually given as much sexual agency in tv/film etc, but also I like that it’s not played off as a kinda quirky “overprotective” parent thing, but the show recognizes how toxic this dynamic is.

You can argue in the gun toting dad example it’s sometimes bc the daughter is underage, but still, there’s often that undercurrent of a parent being threatened by their child getting a romantic partner and “replacing” them.

This is a big part of the Lydia and Charles relationship imo. I would characterize it as a nuanced depiction of an emotionally abusive relationship with elements of covert / emotional incest.

Emotionally abusive because she tends to manipulate him - isolate him from others, like potential partners.

When she feels he “replaced” her by choosing Emily - she immediately replaces him with Charlotte, a surrogate daughter.

Note: covert incest is not actual, literal incest. I do Not think their relationship has an actual sexual / romantic component to it. (but idk if you think that would be interesting to explore in a fanfic, go right ahead.)

I’m referring to unhealthy parent/child relationships where the child is expected to take on a role similar to the parent’s spouse. Such as where the parent expects the child to comfort them emotionally (even from a young age), or to prioritize their relationship over other forms of relationships, like friendships or dating other people.

I can definitely see that, especially with Lydia’s line to Rasselas in season 2 after he talks about losing his partner to an unknown disease. He says something like “I lost my precious boy”.

And she says, “so did I”.

This is due to Lydia being self centered as fuck, sure, but remember how she reacted to Charles nearly dying of an OD because of Emily? She was nowhere near this mopey about it.

(Ofc she had to make sure he was safe but once he was in stable condition she immediately struck.)

In that case at least she could react with violence and use Emily to boost her own standing.

In the case of Charles moving out to live with her, she’s kinda screwed, her old methods of dealing with a situation by attacking others to her own benefit don’t work.

It’s not really actionable. She can’t just go after Emily at the moment.

Lydia is finally stuck having to deal with the idea that her son - who she’s made part of her identity, especially if it means she can say she’s a Good Mother so she’s winning at Patriarchy - maybe chose someone else over her. Or doesn’t want to be close to her anymore.

—

Okay yeah I have talked about the relationships a lot but I could also talk about Charles himself.

Again, he’s a very passive character in a show about very active - or even aggressive - women.

I think his scenes in the show serve an important role of providing some levity or respite from the more intense drama (ie kidnapping, psychological torment, etc). It kinda breaks things up so you can fully digest how awful the other scenes are.

Not to say that he’s a totally innocent guy.

He’s still a shitty person, very self centered and privileged and willing to take advantage of others for his own desires.

I feel like sometimes I’m tipping the scales in his favor too much, as Charles is a morally grey character who likes to think he’s a good guy, but… it’s much easier for him to continue being awful or allow others to suffer for his benefit.

I think there’s a lot of interesting stuff at play with him, the ways Lydia’s parenting makes him see her as a role model and also a negative role model.

He starts off wanting to follow in her footsteps, to impress her. When Lydia starts intimidating Margaret for Emily coming to her, he backs up Lydia by remarking that Emily’s pretty bangable.

(Which is… kinda a stupid thing to add, but it still has an effect on Margaret, which is what they want.)

But once Charles starts to get into what it really means for Lydia to be a bawd - and him by extension - he doesn’t want to continue in the same way.

It’s not just, maybe he can keep Lydia from lashing out at the girls, or maybe if she does he can help them out by sneaking them food.

Once Emily nearly kills him via OD to escape, he doesn’t feel like going after her. Maybe he has a realization from that near death experience. Maybe he’s just too passive to want revenge. Maybe he knows that if he tried to get revenge Lydia would just take it to an eye for an eye levels of intense.

Maybe you could argue that he’s got some kind of guilt around what he did to Emily.

He seemed to almost have a moment of self awareness when (iirc) he told her he’d want to move out some place without Lydia, where she wouldn’t have to have sex with anyone… except him. Oops.

I think the relationship with Emily - because she’s a lot more pro active than he is, and she’s willing to talk back to him despite the power he has over her - forces him to realize his role in things.

And the development with the whole kidnapping people and giving them over to sadistic cultists to murder thing gets him firmly off Lydia’s side.

(Well, that and the line where iirc Nancy says something like “you can’t be on everyone’s side”.)

I think also there’s a lot that could be said about Nancy’s role in nudging him in the direction of a redemption arc in season. Maybe more like pushing him, idk.

Nancy is one of the only people who’s really patient enough to help Emily, even when she lashes out because she feels vulnerable.

She’s one of the first people who really treats Charles as an adult now that I think of it. Like even when Emily rocks the boat, she still plays into his childish side to keep his favor.

I think it’s largely because he’s the exact kind of guy Nancy is used to seeing - a rich dude who wants a dominant woman to take care of him and guide him - and the added history with his mother helps.

You could also argue that while Lydia fits patriarchal ideas of the ideal mother - being nurturing (unless you piss her off), delicate, feminine, lacking her own romance / sex life in lieu of caring for her child (usually) - Nancy is more like the reverse of all these traits, but she actually cares for and guides the people she takes under her wing.

When Emily lashes out at people she thinks are condescending to her, Lydia just doubles down on punishing her, but Nancy gives her the benefit of the doubt and offers her aid.

Was this post a Trojan horse for Nancy birch?? Maybe??

I think that the contrast is also interesting, with Nancy lacking all the conventionally feminine things that make Lydia appear to be a good person on the surface, but actually nurturing and wanting people to grow and providing good coping mechanisms and a shoulder to cry on. Often at the expense of herself.

(So basically Lydia is cloth mother and Nancy is wire mother? Yeah)

I realize I went way off the mark here but I think there’s a lot of potential in exploring the relationship between Charles and Nancy too.

Like he’s more used to seeing women who try to fit into social roles men place on them (whore, virgin, mother, crone etc archetypes) so seeing a goth butch lesbian who tells him to get his shit together… kinda breaks his brain.

It’s a really interesting dynamic I wish we saw more of.

—

There’s a lot more I could say, and maybe will say at a later date, but I’m getting kinda tired of writing this post. I tried to focus on the stuff that was touched on in canon + my own interpretation of it. Or different ones you could run with.

If you got this far… thank you for reading! I give you a sugar pig (whatever that is) for your efforts

#princely squeaks #harlots on Hulu #Charles Quigley #Lydia Quigley #Nancy Birch #Emily Lacey #in the end??#why couldn’t I fixate on characters who have merch OTL I have to make my own or write long shit like this

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furiosophie · 2 years

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i cannot stop thinking about your conception of the thranto relationship in postmortem. how you portray them as obsessed with each other, completely enmeshed, fucking lost without each other and yet how they think they're doing the right thing by giving the relationship up. it's really giving me medieval chivalric romance vibes / gothic romance vibes....i would be so curious just to read your meta thoughts on the two of them and the relationship and the character work you're doing in the fic.

okay i have no idea why my brain decided that today was the day it felt capable of answering this but here we go – buckle up this is so much longer than i had planned, i am sorry :’)

first of i think saying i’ve done actual character work would be too high a praise, i mostly have a lot of notes of gibberish with too many exclamation marks haha

that being said i think the best way i can explain how i see them is by is putting them into context with the other ship i’ve written a lot of – dinluke. and bear with me here if that’s not your cup of tea but essentially what it boils down to for me is the fact that at the core of both of these ships is them being something akin to soulmates. it’s that “there is no one who could ever see me as completely as you do” feeling, just that the pace is exactly reversed.

for dinluke it’s an instant, nearly violent “oh it’s you”, an “oh there is someone i want more than this supposed destiny i should be giving my life for”. and then the struggle comes as a “i can not be with you because i have to be sth else” and “i am too damaged to hold you”. they might get together in a week, it might take them years, but it’s always clear, like even when they don’t know, it’s always clear. the forces that keep them apart are mostly external (e.g. their respective destinies and their real, not just perceived, duty to their people).

for thranto on the other hand it’s not instant, it’s a reluctant “guess it has to be you” and then it’s over a decade of gradual slow realizations, like eli going from worrying about thrawn getting them killed at the academy to smiling to himself whenever thrawn makes faro play riddle me with him.

they’re not falling in love, they're walking into love, slow and gradual, an endurance run until eventually they are so intertwined they end at “oh it’s always been you, it’s always going to be you”.

they are so comfortable with each other they don’t even realize that there is no one else that can match them like they match each other. and so their struggle only comes once they have to separate and realize that they neither know who they are without the other, nor what they actually mean to each other bc it was all always unspoken and open for interpretation. so while shit happens around them the forces that keep them apart are mostly internal (e.g. things unspoken, the way they see themselves and their purpose and their worth).

[i did ofc dig deeper into this, under the cut]

moreover, both din and luke are very clear on who they are as individuals, or at least who they think they are supposed to be – the last jedi and the rightful mand’alor. that’s the whole point, they are these larger than life characters who carry an immense burden on their shoulders they don’t know what to do with. they are both on very lone individual paths (even within the rebels or covert) and are both used to being alone and fending for themselves. their struggle is not only to accept the roles/legacy thrust upon them but also to learn that it all becomes much easier when you accept help, and that it’s okay to allow the comfort of companionship rather than to run from it in fear they could cause hurt because of who they are. they need each other to grow as individuals.

thrawn and eli are, again, that in reverse. they start out as a unit, from the second they meet they are dependent on each other, thrawn literally tells eli “you hold my words in your hands” and eli remarks multiple times how his career and life are tied to thrawn’s. they spend well over a decade together in the navy, a system well known for stomping the individuality out of you, so all their individuality comes from each other – their habits, their schedule, how they wear their uniforms, the missions they go on and the memories they share.

and it’s also interesting to note here how they have an obvious power imbalance when they meet – eli was a cadet back then, prob around eighteen or so, thrawn was at least a decade older and a fully fledged officer – but how at the same time they start out on even ground in a way thrawn didn’t with anyone, maybe not even thrass. bc even though thrawn has more experience he needs eli to navigate this new world for him, and even though eli does hold thrawn’s words in his hands he too seems to need him to thrive. they start out at the academy together and then subsequently work their way up the navy side by side.

eli essentially spends all of his adult life with thrawn, and in turn eli is the most stable relationship thrawn ever had in his life, bc yes, he had thrass and ar’alani and later samakro and thalias, but all of them were only ever at his side when time allowed, and with conditions, not 24/7 like eli is.

i think the way i put this in my notes for an unwritten part of postmortem pt3 illustrates all that well actually:

"The inhibitors, the way your bed is made, your schedule, you–" Thrawn hesitates. "You left space for me."

Eli looks away. "I wish I could say it was a conscious effort. But really it wasn't. It's just– It was fifteen years. That doesn't just go away. It's– all of these things, they're part of me." He looks up. "You're part of me."

and i’ve written a small thing for a twt prompt about thrawn having that exact realization when they’re older:

"You don't like tea."

Eli looks up and frowns, cup halfway to his lips. "I'm drinking tea right now, aren't I?"

Thrawn's eyes catch on the droplets of water sticking to Eli's skin, on his hair still damp from where he took a dip in the lake behind the ranch this morning.

"But you don't like it."

"No," Eli concedes. "But I like drinking it."

"Why?"

Eli shrugs. "Because."

"Because?"

He huffs out a small laugh. "Because it's been thirty years. I got used to it." He smirks. "You got used to the amount of pillows I sleep with, didn't you?"

"I did," Thrawn admits, begrudgingly.

"Prefere it even?"

Thrawn thinks about the way Eli looks on all those pillows in the morning, how his skin contrasts the sheets like strokes of paint. "I do."

"There you have it then," Eli smiles, looking back down at his questis.

"Does it ever bother you?" Thrawn asks when their cups are dry and Ool's midday sun starts creeping up on the ranch's patio.

"Hm?"

"That we're this intertwined."

Eli looks up. "That I couldn't go anywhere in the galaxy and not be aware of the way you've changed me?"

"Yes."

even if they wanted to go separate ways, they are irrevocably intertwined. when we finally get an outside pov of them in treason in form of ronan he describes them as “a circle of calm in the middle of the commotion” which i feel should tell you everything you need to know.

where dinluke fight against that instant feeling of being at ease with each other, thranto embrace it pretty quickly. like yeah, eli grumbles in the beginning and makes a big show of being angry that thrawn forced him to stay at his side, but eli is also a very unreliable narrator and all of that stands in juxtaposition to how fascinated he’s with thrawn from second one, and how he claims to want a simple life but is bored every second they’re not in immediate danger.

it’s a bit hard to see when you’re first reading the books bc of how much of and unreliable a narrator eli is, but once you’re done with the whole series it becomes pretty apparent how perfect they fit with each other from the get go – i have a million examples of this but some small ones would be faro pointing out how eli is the only one who actually understands thrawn’s schemes, and thrawn telling thrass years earlier about how frustrating it is that no one ever does.

like we meet eli as this entirely ordinary guy only to slowly realize oh wait he is a genius in his own right, and then get hit in the ascendancy books with how much of a missing piece he actually is for thrawn (the amount of annotations i have on those books that just say “eli would have known” or “eli would have done xyz”).

like there is a reason thrawn only ever compares eli to nightswan, someone he’s obsessed with, and that he absolutely loses his mind the second eli is gone in rebels. as i said – intertwined. dependent.

and they are not just missing pieces for each other, they are also eerily similar to each other, as we realize in the ascendancy books when we see young thrawn.

like one of my fav comparisons are these two scenes of them intimidating ppl without even raising their voices, like mind you both of them are pretty much the lowest ranking officers in these scenes, eli is an ensign reprimanding a captain:

thrawn ascendancy: chaos rising

thrawn (2017)

and i could make a whole different post for the “eli being an unreliable narrator” thing and how absolutely fascinating he is as a character, but i always keep coming back to wondering about what kind of gifted-kid bullshit happened to him as a kid, like i feel like he and thrawn dealt with a lot of the same issues of being “other” growing up but being unable to put a finger on it. i kinda explore that in postmortem, but it’s most clear in this scene from the borika interlude:

“I grew up near a lake just like this,” Eli says, his eyes fixed firmly on the stars. “I took Thrawn there, once. A long time ago. I spent so much time swimming in those waters growing up, but it never felt the same after that.” He closes his eyes, takes a deep breath that comes out remarkably steady. “I didn’t even know I never really belonged anywhere. Not until I met him.”

as i said, there is no one else who matches them like they match each other, no one else who’s been as much of a constant in their lives as each other.

which is why i think it’s so important that they do, eventually, go separate ways at the end of thrawn (2017) and learn who they are as individuals away from each other. where dinluke needs to allow themselves to be together to grow, thranto needs to allow themselves to be away from each other to do so.

especially bc for most of their time together in canon they are trapped by the fact that their roles and goals are very clear cut – commander and subordinate in service of the imperial navy – which makes it very hard for them to admit or even acknowledge their feelings for each other. like even if one of them would admit it to themselves their framework does not allow them to act upon it (which is why i think there are so many sex pollen fics around for them), so you get deep devotion with everything being left unsaid.

that’s where the chivalry aspect comes in i think – they show their love for each other through upholding their duty, that is the most overt form of affection they can show. which is also why “good day lieutenant vanto” hurts so much bc eli defecting is his ultimate show of affection, it’s his ultimate “i pledge to uphold my duty to you, not the empire”. it’s basically a declaration of love, and so ofc is thrawn sending him away to protect him. but still, unsaid, unsure. conflict.

[as a side note it’s also very interesting how din and luke both rebel against and have to come to accept their destiny and become comfortable with it, while thrawn and eli are both very comfortable with and set in their convictions, and have to be knocked down forcefully (purrgil, send to an alien military and into an impending civil war) to re-evaluate them.]

and ofc they find back to each other eventually, bc they are quite literally meant for each other, but it has to be bc they want to be at each other's side, not bc they are forced to or dependent on each other (especially bc thrawn did very much take eli’s choice away in the beginning, so it’s important that eli takes that step himself, love the way @amukmuk handles this for example, always with explicit consent and clear boundaries).

i am sure i’m forgetting crucial parts so if you want me to elaborate on anything lmk but yeah, those are my two cents i’d say, hope that answers that question?

#thranto #thranto meta #is that even a tag #sorry for rambling on this much that was uhhh #like a lot #and sorry for taking so long to answer i am terrible at this unfortunately #but this was a very fun exercise #also i hope this is what you were asking?#like 99% of how i write them is just vibes tbh #it's all about the longing #thrawn #eli vanto #soph answers asks

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