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eddiezpaghetti · 3 months

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It has come to my attention that SOME OF YOU who read my last Byler post remain UNCONVINCED. So I'm gonna tack onto it this:

I'm older than fucking God and air, and I've been out and proud since 2007. Yes, I know what homophobia is, and yes, I know what queerbaiting is. I know about Supernatural and Teen Wolf and Sherlock and blahdyblahdyblah. No new ground is being covered here. I thought I made that clear in the original post, but, clearly, I did not.

I am aware of queerbaiting and homophobia, and I'm still wholeheartedly certain in Byler being canon anyway.

Okay, so there are three types of relationship I want to discuss when it comes to queerbaiting. They're all, like, "queer relationships that could have happened, but didn't".

First off, queer-coding. This isn't really a thing so much anymore, but it still crops up every once in a while. I'd argue it probably happens most with male-male relationships in family shows these days. First example that comes to mind is Mr. Smiley and Mr. Frowny from Steven Universe. You can't make a relationship canon because some shitty overhead bastard overhead said no, so you get as close as you can without compromising the show. Can't make someone gay? Well, now their comedy routine is a blatant allegory for a romantic relationship. Boom-shaka-laka. This is something I don't see being a problem with regards to Stranger Things, but I want it to be there as contrast, a demonstration of one of many things queerbaiting is not. However, one could argue that, thus far, Will Byers is, canonically, queer-coded. It's pretty fucking heavily implied in the show, and the creators have confirmed it, and you're gonna be able to see it if you're not FUCKING BLIND, but word of god is not technically canon which means that interviews don't technically make something canon, blahdyblahdyblahdyblah, technicalities, Robin has been explicitly stated in the text to be queer while Will has, thus far, not, outside of good ol' Show-Don't-Tell. Of course, anyone with two brain cells to rub together can tell that that's going to change by the end of Season 5, but, hey, for what it's worth, I'm throwing this out there.

Alrighty, Thingamajingama Number Two: "Oops, I accidentally made the greatest love story known to man." AKA, a genuine, honest-to-goodness mistake. Unfortunately, we do live in a heteronormative society. Sometimes people who don't think about being gay much write a friendship that's incredibly compelling and don't even consider the possibility that it could have been read as romantic. Something something Top Gun something. This is, again, not queerbaiting. This is Steddie, this is Ronance, this is Elmax, this is your favorite flavor of non-canon ship this week, this is not Byler. The creators know DAMN well what they're doing. They've talked about it. We know this. Nothing new here.

Which brings us to the topic of discussion here. Actual queerbaiting. This usually starts out as an "accidental greatest love story", and then reacts to fan response. And when I say "reacts", I mean like a goddamn chemical reaction. Like bleach and ammonia, bitch. It's noxious and it's gonna kick your fucking ass without mercy. This is when a creator is like, "Hey, let's get our queer audience invested, but we're not actually going to give them what they want because our straight audience isn't here for that/we personally think it's gross/we don't give enough of a shit to want to research a goddamn thing to write a real gay character," blah blah blah whatever excuse they want to come up with this time.

And when you think "queerbaiting", I want you to think "bullying". Because that's what it is. It's lucrative bullying, like beating us up and taking our lunch money, but it's bullying all the same. And it's a real goddamn thing, even if people misuse the word a lot, often when they mean one of the two above, sometimes when they mean "bury your gays", which is another homophobic thing entirely that I'm not going to get into here. Queerbaiting is the thing we're focused on, and it's real, and it's bullying. And here's the reason I want you to think of it as bullying:

They

Think

It's

Funny.

They are actively making fun of us.

That's why Dean had the "Cas, get out of my ass," line in Supernatural. It's why the "Do you like boys?" line happened in Teen Wolf. It's why "Lie with me, Watson," happened in the RDJ Sherlock Holmes movies. Because "It's just a joke, mate." "It was just a prank, bro." "You didn't really think it would happen, did you?" "You should see your face."

So here's probably the biggest reason I don't think it's specifically queerbaiting in this specific instance of Will Byers and Mike Wheeler.

Stranger Things has never, not once, made a gay joke. Ever.

Every single time queerness comes up, it's dead serious.

Lonnie calls Will a fag, and the show is not at all reluctant to show what a goddamn horrible person he is. And when Hopper latches onto that, it's not as "Hahah, is he gay, though?" It's because he's trying to determine a potential motive for Will's disappearance, and even if someone had interpreted it as a joke, Joyce immediately has a line that functions as snapping her fingers in front of the audience's face and yelling "FOCUS" when she says "He's MISSING." Basically outright saying "This isn't funny!"

Troy calls him a fairy, along with targeting Lucas and Dustin for their skin color and disability respectively, and Mike gets damn near murderous. Troy is portrayed as a goddamn monster and the show portrays it as justice when El makes him piss his pants and later breaks his arm.

Steve calls Jonathan "queer" as a slur and gets the shit beat out of him for it.

Billy's father is revealed to be homophobic and abusive in the same breath.

Mike says "It's not my fault you don't like girls!" and we're shown how devastated Will is and Mike immediately follows him to beg for forgiveness.

There is a joke in Robin's coming-out scene, but it's not at Robin's expense. It's at Steve's. Specifically for being heteronormative.

Jonathan has multiple scenes where he's trying so hard to tell Will that he's always going to love him as he is, whether he's gay or not, without pressuring him to come out before he's ready.

Even when there's a little bit of ribbing at Robin's expense, it's always because she's an awkward nerd who's nervous around pretty girls, just the same as Lucas and Dustin are teased when they both first develop crushes on Max, and even then, even then, it always comes as a package deal where they make fun of Steve's girl problems at the same time.

Stranger Things is an emphatically pro-gay show. It may not be the core point of the show the way it is in, say, Our Flag Means Death, but there is nothing less than respect for its queer characters. Its queer characters are always taken completely seriously. No one is making fun of us. They never have. That's why I have serious doubts that this is queerbaiting. It would come completely out of left field for the bullying to start in Stranger Things' final season.

So it's not at all likely to be queerbaiting because queerness is taken completely seriously. The creators have talked about Will's queerness, at least, so it's not an accident. And queer-coding would be silly to expect from this show when it's already on its final season. Like, what is Netflix gonna do? Cancel it? Not to mention all the explicit queerness that's in there already. And no one's gonna "What about the children?" a show that's had sex scenes in it since the first season.

There's no fakeout here. It's gonna happen. Breathe.

#byler #Part 2 I fucking guess.#Wasn't planning on making a Part 2 but here we are.#I seriously just want you guys to feel safe.#I'm not naive. I do not say any of this shit lightly.#But I've been around the block long enough to know what queerbaiting looks like and this ain't it. Promise.#Will's already been confirmed as in love with Mike for fuck's sake. You don't think the other half of the equation's gonna follow through?#There has only ever been one other situation where I've gone 'Okay this is going in gay places' with no doubt whatsoever without being told #And that was with Daja in Tamora Pierce's 'Will of the Empress' when I read it at like sixteen or whatever #and she wound up having whole-ass fuckin' gay sex.#I was right then and I'm right now. I swear.

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serpentarius · 4 months

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been trying to wrap my head around the cancellation of "Our Flag Means Death" and why it hurts so fucking much. lots of folks who are much more eloquent than I have summed it up perfectly, but I still think it’s important I add my voice to the matter.

It really, really sucks that the hurt is being compounded on us every time another queer/minority-led show gets prematurely cancelled. and for a long while, we also had to deal with the many shows that deliberately queerbaited us, which was a shitty and traumatic experience unto its own. And even though we’ve largely surpassed that early-‘00s-flavoured brand of queerbait now, mainstream queer media is still predominantly white-led. With the cancellation of OFMD, we've lost one of the very few intersectional queer shows in the mainstream. Shouldn’t we be beyond asking for crumbs at this point? Shouldn’t we get unabashedly intersectional shows helmed by and starring queer, BIPOC, and trans folks without them being axed for no rhyme or reason?

It’s exhausting at this point, honestly. OFMD has done so well in terms of viewership and engagement and fan response—almost entirely due to word of mouth and little thanks to the Max marketing team, mind you—and even still the show got cancelled? Can they make it make sense????

For me, the thing most akin to this OFMD situation was when Sense8 got cancelled. And yes, the fandom fought, and we eventually DID get a movie that wrapped things up years later! That gives me hope for OFMD, that maybe another network will pick it up, or maybe they’ll be able to make a movie someday. But what makes me sad about cases like Sense8 is knowing that the creators still had to force the narrative around the amount of time they were given. That the corporate overlords who only care about numbers and profit dictated how much time they had to wrap up their story.

And it fucking kills me that DJ only wanted one more season. One more season to complete the vision.

I'm just so mad that queer people are constantly being jerked around and used for profit and then left high and dry. And then we're given excuses like "oh there's no budget" or "oh there's not enough viewership, that's all it is". like, sure, maybe those are contributing factors, but then I look at all the useless garbage shows that have little viewership and high budgets that keep going forever and then I think "hmmmm, the math ain't mathing." It's fucking transparent; the corporations can spew all they want with their rainbow capitalism and talks about diversity, but the evidence is clear, and they can't convince me homophobia/racism/transphobia/etc. is not a factor in these decisions.

Anyways, back to OFMD. OFMD made me fall in love with fandom again. I drifted away from fandom for a while in my 20s, and while OFMD wasn't the first fandom that drew me back into the madness, it's certainly the largest. The sheer amount of creativity both within the show and outside of it has blown me away; I've read some of the best fics, seen some of the best art, and witnessed some of the most incredible creativity from people in this fandom.

And let's not forget the role of the show's creators and how they've interacted with us fans. They made us feel seen. And made us feel loved and valid, even when we were being weird and loud and horny. It's so fucking rare to see that. But they understood; understood that the show they made was for us, for any of us who've been marginalized or made to feel Othered or different or stuck in life or unsure of our identities. And they gave us so much love for it.

The story... man. The unique combination of quirky humour and bright visuals and dark, introspective moments, the gorgeous costumes and soft, lovely, unabashed queerness, and veteran actors and new actors all getting to shine, brilliant comedic actors getting to show off their dramatic chops and vice versa. For me, seeing Rhys Darby - an actor I've loved for a long time, but who I never thought I'd see in a leading role - getting to be the romantic lead in a queer role? And seeing acclaimed director/producer/screenwriter/actor Taika Waititi play opposite Rhys, as an indigenous Blackbeard? Fucking incredible. OFMD Edward Teach you will always be famous to me.

Anyways... despite my long ramblings here, I still don’t think I've been able to get to the root of WHY exactly this show has inched its way under my skin and stayed with me in the way it has. Maybe I'll spend years trying to understand it. But I DO know that it's in part to do with seeing both older queers AND a diverse range of queerness onscreen, in a way that I've never seen in media before. I DO know that OFMD has forced me to look inwardly, and allowed me to realize some important things about myself. About my own queerness, my own identity, things I'm still figuring out. I've cherished being able to see myself in Stede, in Ed, and each of the crew members. In Roach’s love for cooking, in Oluwande’s ability to mediate; in Jim’s quick temper, in the way Izzy builds walls to guard his heart. In Buttons’ quirkiness, in Wee John’s sass, in Frenchie’s ability to turn pain into humour; in The Swede’s silliness, in Lucius’ bluntness, in Pete’s soft heart beneath the skepticism. Lastly, OFMD has inspired me. To create, to write, to draw, to devour other peoples' works and worlds while I sit in sheer, overflowing joyousness at their talent.

so yeah. the news of this cancellation is upsetting and hurtful and disappointing. And it's making us cry, and it's making us grieve, and may make us hollow and numb at times because we've lost yet another thing we love so deeply before it was meant to go. It's so much more than "just a TV show". It means more to us than any passive mindless idiotic mind-numbing bullshit - because even though there's a time and a place and a purpose for that type of media, it's the thought-provoking work, the work that creators pour their entire hearts and souls into, that hit us deep in our own souls. The work that changes our lives. The work that has the ability to save lives, as I know OFMD has done for so many.

please know I'm sending immense amounts of love and strength to those of you who are also hurting. we'll get through this, one way or another, and I'll keep up with the hope that we'll get more someday; but in the meantime, I'm holding you tight. ❤️️🫂

#our flag means death #ofmd #my thoughts #ofmd thoughts #sorry for the long rambles I just needed to scream into the void #I feel helpless right now but I also wanna fight #sending love ❤️

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xxhopelessaromanticxx · 1 year

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STOP SAYING GOOD OMENS IS QUEERBAITING!

Good Omens is not queerbaiting. Yes, it is a love story. No, it doesn't have to be romantic/sexual to be a love story. Romantic love is not the only kind of love there is, nor is it better or stronger or more important than other kinds of love.

Good Omens is a love story between an angel and a demon. It's a story of an unlikely, unconventional kind of a relationship, that doesn't have to be be described in human terms. It is especially relatable to many aro/ace folks (but not only!) and made lots of us feel seen.

Being a homosexual man is NOT the only way to be queer, nor is it better or "more queer" than other queer identities.

Good Omens is very much a queer love story, just not the type of queer love stories that usually get told.

If you ship Crowley X Aziraphale romantically or sexually, there's nothing wrong with that! It's great! But don't use it as an excuse to erase other kinds of queerness or queer people's experiences. Don't accuse Neil or Terry or anyone else of queerbaiting or homophobia or not being brave enough.

#good omens #queerbaiting #ineffable husbands

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moki-dokie · 1 year

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reasons i will never forgive the showrunners if they don't at least acknowledge jjpope by the end of s3

featuring: ✨✨✨queerbaiting✨✨✨

wearing each other's clothes:

jj taking every opportunity ever to touch pope (god there are SO many more examples too):

jj getting sexual with, to, or about pope and ONLY pope, ever:

INTRICATE RITUALS:

(with coincidentally well timed lyrics right as it cuts to this scene sorry not sorry editing choices like that are done for a reason)

jj very often gazing at his lips instead of his eyes while talking to him:

(seconds before going in for the kiss)

jj constantly putting himself between pope and danger or being protective of him:

KISSING:

INTIMATE NECK KISSING IN A HOT TUB FOR WHICH THERE IS NO HETEROSEXUAL REASON FOR????:

I RAN OUT OF ROOM FOR IMAGES BUT LETS NOT FORGET ALSO

how jj has quite a few pet names for pope but no one else, how pope and jj are almost always paired off together, how jj has explicitly said 'i love you' to pope TWICE, how jj calms pope down when he starts spiraling, how jj and pope have more physical contact and affection than the two romantic leads, how jj is supposed to be a manho from how he's introduced and yet the opening shot is the one and only time we've seen him with someone in a romantic or sexual manner. how about the multiple accounts of people sharing gifs of them to people who have never seen the show with 0 context provided and damn near every time the consensus is 'they are not straight/they are hitting on each other'. I've covered most of this before. the list goes on.

we could even get into film editing choices from the perspective of my bestie who has a degree in that very field and how SO many of their scenes are shot, lit, scored, and all around edited with romantic intent,.

but then wait, there's more! how about how multiple members of the cast (including rudy!!) have stated they support the ship and think it's cute? or how multiple netflix socials heavily suggested jjpope was going to be canon? how so many of the key jjpope moments were improv that could have been cut and redone (like the fucking hot tub scene) if they didn't want it going in a possible homo direction??? or how jjpope was the first major ship to come out of obx BECAUSE of such heavy handed subtext?? and then the showrunners have the audacity to pivot to jiara at the last second because of a handful of fucking rabid stans that harassed the cast so severely it drove most of them off of socials??? with the paper thin excuse of 'oh we never expected that lets explore it'???????????

and whats the definition of queerbaiting again? "Queerbaiting is a marketing technique for fiction and entertainment in which creators hint at, but then do not depict, same-sex romance or other LGBTQ+ representation. The purpose is to attract ("bait") a LGBTQ+ or straight ally audience with the suggestion or possibility of relationships or characters that appeal to them."

right.

i still have a sliver of hope that their 'exploration' of jiara is just like, 2 episodes of them giving it a shot and realizing they actually suck together. i still have hope they aren't gonna do us so blatantly dirty and might give us something even if it's just crumbs. most of the cast are loud and proud queer allies, the showrunners have so far been pretty fucking cool and extremely supportive of the queer community, even refusing to film in north Carolina because of transphobic bathroom laws. it would feel especially dirty if they really did bait us because of that. but man. MANNN. it just ain't looking good. i'd hate to give up on the show. i love it and love the actors even more but if they do it, i might just have to.

#long post #jjpope #mayward #obx #big sigh #jjpope nation is either about to riot #or celebrate #or be underwhelmed bc they end up delivering the absolute bare minimum but its better than nothing #which is personally what i'm expecting #WE SHALL SEE #i am prepared to bite tho

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pearwaldorf · 2 months

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I have been trying to write this on and off for a while. I figure the second anniversary of the show is as fine an occasion as any to shove it out into the world. It is not everything I want to say about it, but I think the important bits are there.

It is a human impulse to be seen. To be told, through art, you are not alone. It is universal, but of special importance to people who are not well-represented in media (i.e. everybody who isn’t cis, white, able-bodied, skinny, and conventionally attractive).

This show speaks to me as a queer person who figured things out later than most of my peers. (Not quite as late as Ed and Stede but not terribly far off either.) It’s not super common to see queer media address this, and I didn’t realize how much I needed that reassurance until I got it. That it’s okay to find these things any time in your life. To be told “A queer is never late, they’re always fashionably on-time.”

They’re not my first canon queer ship. But they are the first ones where I knew it was true from the get-go. Multiple people assured me this was the case. And yet, I still didn’t believe it until I saw it with my own two eyes. This experience is not unusual for fans around my age.

After I finished up season one, I laid in bed and cried. It’s not something I thought would affect me so much, but it feels like a weight I’d carried so long I didn’t realize it wasn’t supposed to be part of me is gone.

One of the reasons people unfamiliar with the fandom seem to think it’s absolutely crazy (which some of it is, to be fair, but every fandom has that) is the way fans of the show get extremely super intense about it. It took me a few weeks to realize this is a trauma response. I’m not even sure “trauma” is the right word. It doesn’t interfere with my day to day function, but it lasted for years. Decades. So it was definitely something that fucked me up. And in the way you can only start to see something as you’re moving past it, I’ve spent a lot of time trying to get my head around this. (I don’t know if I have anything to say about it yet. Maybe I need more time to sit with it.)

I know this sounds contrary, but I’m really glad David Jenkins does not come from fandom. Sometimes it’s good to know where a line is, and others it’s better to not know there’s a line at all. And this is, sad to say, remarkable to somebody who has had to deal with this for so long. With so many writers and showrunners aware of the line, and getting right up next to it, but never crossing it.

Imagine doing a show with a queer romance and not understanding why this was received with such emotion and fervor, because it’s just two people in love right? What blissful ignorance that this needed to be explained to him! And then he listened to people’s experiences with queerbaiting, and went “Oh my god you thought I was going to do WHAT?” And then you go “Huh. That is really fucked up.”

The problem with being told something enough, even though you know it’s wrong, is you start to believe it regardless. All the excuses and hedging. It’s so very difficult to do they tell us, when we hear from queer creators how they had fight tooth and nail to make it as gay as it already was.

And then comes Jenks, just yeeting it out there: majority queer and (not and/or. and) POC cast, an openly non-binary person playing an openly non-binary character. The ability to not have to make one queer (and/or) POC character speak for everybody, so you can inject a tiny bit of nuance into the conversation. The way you can tell more kinds of stories, like the one where the smol angry internalized homophobe comes into his own with the support of a queer community, even though he was a giant fucking asshole to them before.

So many people were like “You can just DO that? It’s really that easy?” And wasn’t that a fucking Situation, to have that curtain pulled aside. What next? Majority POC casts with stories about POC written by POC? Absolute madness. (Please please watch The Brothers Sun on Netflix. It’s so fucking good.)

And people will scoff and say “Of course a cishet(?) white man would be able to get this pushed through.” But do they usually? The thing I don’t think people understand about allies is they use their privilege to wedge the door open. You still have to do the work to get through, but at least you have a place to start. And it really fucking matters.

The press keeps trying to tell me The Completely Made-Up Adventures of Dick Turpin is the OFMD substitute we need while we float in the gravy basket. I’m sure it’s a perfectly fine show, but I don’t know who has watched OFMD and decided the itch we needed scratched was anachronistic historical comedy.

I want stories written by people that reflect their lived experiences, with actors and crew committed to bringing that to life. And I would like streamers and studios to commit to giving them a chance, and marketing them properly so people know they exist.

You can keep people satisficed with scraps for only so long. At some point, somebody is going to give them a whole seven course dinner and people will wonder why they’ve been putting up with starving this entire time.

#our flag means death #ofmd #our flag turns 2 #pear watches ofmd #pear text

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uglynavel · 3 months

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Since I'm back in my teen wolf obsession after the movie I'm just gonna say it. The vitriolic hatred for both Scott McCall and Tyler Posey was just fucking racism. There was literally no reason to hate them so much and every excuse I've seen people have for hating Scott is that he didn't center himself around Stiles (his white friend) more.

Scott McCall's only flaw was that he loved his friends too much and he was too trusting and forgiving of people.

I'm all for ship and let ship but Tyler is right about Sterek being weird. Stiles was a minor and Derek was at least 20-23 and as a former Sterek shipper who has seen the light. I don't blame Tyler. Y'all got hella annoying with that ship.

Sterek was never queerbait

Stiles and Derek did not like each other. They only tolerated each other because of Scott. Derek literally says he only came back to beacon hills for Scott. Y'all let Dylan and Tyler Hoechiln convince you otherwise.

Also people hating Scott is another case of white people having this weird issue with not being able to relate to a poc character because y'all literally take all of Scott's traits and give them to Stiles (because mostly I only see white people hating him and a few people of color)

The "iconic" baseball batt and red hoodie y'all love to give Stiles is literally what Scott was wearing in episode 1 of Season 1

EDIT: I'll also never forgive you FREAKS for bullying Tyler Posey after his mom died and said it was karma for saying sterek is weird. You people are fucking sick, disgusting pathetic excuses of a human being--no you're not human. You're literal scum for doing that.

Stiles and Dylan O'Brien were not the face of Teen Wolf. It is Tyler and Scott. Hell for example the sims 3 Supernatural. The werewolf on the cover looks like season 1 Scott.

I LOVE Stiles but those certain Stiles fans have put a sour taste in my mouth for the character.

Also the "Scott McCall is a bad friend" tag is so dumb cause Stiles and every other character on that show would laugh in your face if you tried to tell them that

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supervisionx · 1 month

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I keep seeing posts that Hannibal is queerbait (not necessarily on Tumblr but it's really prevalent on Twitter and tiktok) so I'm going to break down how it is NOT queerbait under 'keep reading' (long ass rant ahead)

I'm going to use Supernatural and Sherlock as an example because they are both pretty infamous for queerbaiting, but this isn't to make fun of those shows altogether.

In both Supernatural and Sherlock, the main 'ships' are between Sherlock Holmes / John Watson and Castiel / Dean Winchester. In their respective shows, there is almost nothing stopping them from getting together. In both cases, they are friends, have good chemistry, spend a frequent amount of time together, and do not have any significant others. The only thing stopping them from being in a relationship is that one or both of them are presumably straight or are simply not in love with each other.

In Hannibal, however, one is an FBI agent, and the other is a serial killer. There is an in-show reason that would stop (especially Will Graham) from wanting to be in a relationship with the other despite personal feelings. Even in earlier seasons, when Will Graham did not know Hannibal was a serial killer, Hannibal was still his therapist.

Next, what makes the queerbait stand out especially in Sherlock and Supernatural, is that every time anything is suggested between the two popular ships, it is often played off as a joke.

Think of the scene in Sherlock where John fumbles asking Sherlock if he has a boyfriend. The scene where Sherlock is about to kiss Moriarty is presented as a flashback by a crazy fan (making fun of the viewer for thinking Sherlock could be in a male/male relationship)

In Supernatural, there is a scene where castiel is alluded to being teleported naked on top of Dean's car, dialog such as "Get out of my ass" "I was never in your..." and an awkward pause. These are all one-off jokes, scenes, etc. Meant to allude to queerness without having to actually commit to it.

In Hannibal, however, no scene that alludes to queerness is played as a joke. Hannibal is genuine when he says he cares for Will, when he is worried the other man has died, the constant touches, and where he compares their relationship to Achilles and Patroclus. (Do I even have to mention the "Is Hannibal... In love with me?" Scene?)

"But Hannibal and Will never kissed / never had a relationship!"

Okay, it's fair to be upset that the pair never kissed or had a full relationship established, but you have to remember Hannibal was canceled. Sherlock and Supernatural both came to their conclusions naturally and decided to continue never establishing a proper relationship between their queerbaited characters.

(I'm not counting that scene where castiel says "I love you" to Dean and gets sent to Super Hell as a relationship. You could argue that this makes Castiel explicitly queer and therefore not queerbait, but it still feels more like executives doing the same thing as the joke part of this argument; not wanting to commit to making him queer and throwing in a one-off line. Plus, this does not excuse baiting Dean as queer and baiting the relationship between Dean and Castiel as more than friendship)

However, Hannibal never got to reach its natural conclusion. More seasons were planned, in which the creator of the show explicitly stated he wanted to explore the relationship between Hannibal and Will more in those seasons before being canceled. Being upset that they never kissed / had a relationship does NOT mean the show was queerbait.

#hannibal #supernatural #bbc sherlock #queerbaiting #hannibal fandom #hannibal lecter #nbc hannibal #will graham #long reads #long post

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naranjapetrificada · 7 months

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The first thing I should ever have said about Izzy and the last thing I intend to say until at least October 26th.

[Although I am not Her strongest soldier, so who knows if I will stick the landing.]

So to start with, I was a "late" arrival to the show. I knew it existed of course, but I only occasionally saw things that reminded me it existed. The first time I saw a mention of "grumpy/sunshine" it was with a picture of Ed and Stede, so I guess on some level I knew there was shipping going on, but that was literally all I knew. I didn't even know it involved Blackbeard lol.

Which is all to say that I first approached and watched season 1 removed from basically anything anyone had to say about it. I think what actually got me to watch it wasn't anything anyone had to say either, it was from youtube recommendations? Like I think I had watched a couple Taika interviews or something and ofmd stuff started showing up? So after catching a few clips and intentionally spoiling the kiss for myself (life is too short to be queerbaited) I watched it in April/May 2023, and was Changed by it the way so many other people were. It grabbed me so hard I started looking for fics, and when fic grabbed me even harder I became a regular tumblr user for the first time ever in June 2023.

What I didn't do, before the second half of 2023, was care particularly much about Izzy Hands.

I remember describing him as psychologically fascinating to the first IRL friend I talked to about the show, and joking that he just needed a good dom. As much as his decision to call in the navy was a threat to Stede's and Ed's lives, I saw his actions as part of a thing needed for the story, and while I knew he was one of the season's villains there wasn't really any heat behind that assessment.

For me he was there to set things in motion, and to serve the narrative in certain ways, to be a foil, more storytelling tool than man. That doesn't mean I didn't think Con did an excellent job adding layers to him, he absolutely made Izzy take up space and feel more present and textured than he otherwise might have. But when I began to zoom out and consider things on meta level, Izzy existed to do a certain thing or occupy a certain place in relation to the narrative and other characters more than anything else. And that was fine.

Then I started reading meta here, and found myself surrounded by passionate conversations about Izzy from many directions occurring with an intensity that I couldn't wrap my brain around. I saw people tying themselves into knots to justify and excuse the behavior of a textual antagonist, and I was baffled and because I still saw Izzy for what his role in the narrative was, it literally made no sense to see his behavior explained away. In the framework I brought to the fandom when I first arrived, trying to explain away Izzy's behavior would be like looking at a forest fire and trying to explain away processes like combustion and oxidation. Or if you'll allow me to borrow another extended, nature-based metaphor from a fic in an entirely different fandom:

Again, because from where my head was at, it didn't make sense to look at Izzy's morality as a zero sum game because in this metaphor, he was functionally just a brackish body of water. I'm not saying the morality is brackish, I'm saying the morality was literally not the point because like an estuary, an antagonist "must exist" because antagonists exist for specific reasons directly related to storytelling goals.

So there was no real heat behind my feelings about him or his actions, beyond the natural emotional reactions we have to characters and their behaviors before we zoom out. I was of course upset with his treatment of Lucius, which was targeted compared to other members of the crew. I was annoyed with the way he talked to and about Ed. I laughed when his plans had the equal and opposite results of what he intended, which you could argue happened with every single plan he made for the entirety of season 1. And yes, especially as a Black person living in the US, I felt the fear and betrayal that comes from seeing someone call the cops (which given the show and its writers, it does not feel like a stretch to describe calling the navy that). I wondered if there was any coming back from a choice like that, which is a big overriding question for the series as a whole.

I'm not here to debate any of the points in the previous paragraph. I know how I feel and you feel how you feel and there's already been so much said about the morality of it all by people who have explained themselves well, so let them convince you or not. Instead I've been trying to talk about the two sides of my experience before and after getting into the fandom with Izzy.

Before: Izzy Hands, Narratively Useful Antagonist Portrayed Compellingly And Effectively by Con O'Neill.

After: Izzy Hands, Unfortunate Avatar Of The Sadly Common Tendency For Certain Fans To Hyperfocus On A White Antagonist Or Secondary Character When There Already Exists A Protagonist They're A Foil Of (And Also It Looks Bad TO Do That When The Protagonist Is Someone With A Marginalized Identity).

I'm not here to argue the merits of those assessments either, because that's not the point. The point is the vast gulf between them and how the latter does such an incredible disservice to the Izzy we were given and that so many people claim to love. The latter comes from a place where morality is the focus, which I'm sorry y'all, feels like it originates with people who refuse to countenance Izzy's role in the story as well as his characterization.

Viewers who were willing to see Izzy as an antagonist, who don't view the word "antagonist" as a value judgement in and of itself, who don't think that finding an antagonist charismatic or compelling means anything about their own morality, those people can look at the show we were given and take it for what it was made to be. I'm not saying that it's only the Izzy stans (not enjoyers, not jar people) who start fights or that people who understand that Izzy is an antagonist don't also have deep morality related feelings about him and his actions in the first season. What I am saying is that sanding off Izzy's rough edges and trying to make him into something he isn't poisons even the possibility of having a discussion about him because people enter the conversation with two completely different understandings of reality. If you cannot accept the job that season 1 Izzy was given to do to move the story along, well you might as well have watched a completely different show for how much that fanon Izzy has anything to do with the canon one.

This show deserves better than that. The writers deserve better than that. Con O'Neill deserves better than that. Israel Basilica Hands deserves better than that. We all do.

#I know some of y'all are allergic to calling season 1 Izzy a villain or even an antagonist much less a villain #but given how self aware this production is about tropes it's weird to pretend that's not literally his function #at least in season one #maybe there are changes to that on the horizon #but we won't have the complete picture until Oct. 26 so maybe chill if people have an antipathy toward him #especially because at least a third of that antipathy is rooted in how criticizing him AT ALL acts like a summoning ritual #and I have to wonder about the acrimony levels if people felt like they could offer critical opinions easily #anyway rip my notifications probably #ofmd #our flag means death spoilers #ofmd spoilers #ofmd speculation #ofmd meta #fandom meta #fandom fuckery #character meta #let izzy be izzy #izzy hands #izzy critical #the izcourse #and now to filter literally every Izzy tag until November so I can enjoy the season in peace #that's as close as I'll make it to the halcyon days of my season 1 watch #ofmd s2 #ofmd season 2 #ofmd season 2 spoilers #ofmd s2 spoilers #ofmd s2 speculation #ps I won't be responding to replies because look at the title of this post

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777cherry-blossom777 · 2 years

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SPOILERS FOR STRANGER THINGS VOLUME 2

Ok here’s a list of why everyone is saying volume 2 was so much worse than every other part (part 6).

Im putting all the groups in seperate posts so its not too long. Here’s just the overall reasons it sucked.

GENERAL

1. The fucking two day time skip. Oh please. First of all, that was the most pathetic excuse to not show everyone trying to get out of the upside down and/or grieving Eddie. It was like the duffers could see all the loose ends they left and just decided to make that time skip so if ever anyone asked they can say “oh yeah that was addressed in the two days afterwards”. Second, you’re telling me that I’m only two days, everyone made a miraculous recovery except Max and Dustin??? Where did his limp even come from? Duffers you can’t just give him a limp to show that he’s been in a fight he has to have actually INJURED HIS LEG. No scars or bruises on the teens faces, only Lucas’s black eye, Dustin’s limp, and Max’s everything. Ok so they got Max. But literally everyone else? And they’re not even upset about Max or Eddie??? What???

2. They went on and on about time this and time that and there was literally nothing to do with time. The clock was just to say that four people had to die before times up (great pun but wtf). With all the actors saying this season would be carnage, I was expecting an Avengers Endgame type thing, where El somehow reversed time. But, much like pretty much every other plot point from volume 1, it was completely ignored.

3. Angela? She was just gone? Mike and El never discussed it again? Yet another point from volume 1 they forgot about.

4. Will’s birthday. I still can’t believe they forgot that.

5. How did no one in Hawkins notice the giant glowing red x in the ground from all the murder sites in the earthquake zone??? What?

6. The whole team just let Eddie be called a murderer??? And they just left his body in the upside down and were all fine except Dustin??? Once again, what???

7. Max’s mum not being in the hospital room and her trailer probably being destroyed seeing as it was right next to Eddie’s. Obviously she’s most likely dead, and yet they never addressed that?

8. The relationship between the mind flayer and Vecna was never addressed?

9. The fact that the upside down was frozen in time was never addressed???

10. All the queerbaiting. And using their only queer characters to further straight relationships.

Honestly this whole volume felt like it was made by completely different people with no idea what they’re doing.

#stranger things #stranger things 4 #duffer brothers hate squad #why volume 2 sucked #byler #will byers #robin x vickie #ronance #robin buckley #mike wheeler #eddie munson #steddie #nancy wheeler #vickie stranger things

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theophagie-remade · 9 months

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I've been kind of following the Gundam lesbians vs Bandai controversy from the sidelines (ie: the main characters got married (offscreen) at the end of the series and the production team is supportive; Bandai censored the explicit mentions of marriage in a recent magazine and then said that everything is up to interpretation) and. In general it's a really good example of how oftentimes it's not authors who should mainly be blamed for the lack of unapologetic queerness in anime and manga (or anywhere else, for that matter), but those companies that they work for

Which leads me to

And as a side note I want to reiterate this but anyone who calls them "queerbait", "yuribait", etc is a stupid dickhead because Toga is bisexual and in love with Uraraka. THE QUEER IS THERE

At this point it no longer makes much sense to wonder whether the romantic undertones to Uraraka and Toga's relationship are accidental or not. I won't claim that they will definitely end up together together (although I've seen enough Japanese fans go crazy for how proposal-esque Uraraka got to, like, at least entertain the thought lol), but what I want to say is. Everything that happened between them is deliberately meant to be read as queer, romantic, and mutual. Uraraka may have not said "I love you" back to Toga in these same terms, but through her actions and words she has reciprocated her feelings. Yes, even if Those Assholes say that she's just lying, that anything that isn't spoon-fed explicitly confirmed is just a "delusional interpretation"

Even then, the supposed line between text and subtext is... a bit eyebrow raising, innit. Toga being bisexual and having feelings for Uraraka is text. Exchanging blood being equal to kissing to her is text. Her insecurities are text......... Uraraka wanting to give Toga her blood, thinking that her smile is beautiful, and that she's the cutest in the whole world is text. I feel like that strongly suggests something at minimum, no. And. Can we really call it subtext, or even coding, when characters do everything short of dramatically shouting "I gay-love you!" to each other? These are more of my personal feelings, and I know that this happens because We Live In A Society, so we tend to feel like things like these must be outright defined so that our queer interpretations can gain validity and the right to exist in the eyes of the majority (= the cishet audience), but... I do find this way of engaging with media rather stifling, especially because... people who hate us to begin with won't care if two manga girls declare their love to each other. Chances are that they will get angrier, actually, or that they will look for excuses to deny their love ("the author was pressured by crazy shippers", "akchually the wording is ambiguous", "the degenerate West is corrupting the purity of the East", you name it)

Still, I know. I know that there's a lot of hunger for undeniably canonical queer relationships (for obvious reasons! understable reasons!), but to circle back to the beginning of this post, pushing back against the system is hard. Bnha's ending is still a ways off, and no one can predict the future. We don't know if Horikoshi plans to stress even further/more bluntly within the manga that Oh, They 👭🏳️‍🌈, we don't know if Jump would allow him to, we don't know if such a thing would be met with opposition elsewhere/afterwards (see: what Bandai is trying to do now, after everything has been said and done).

Regardless, sought after explicit confirmation or not, they do have something, something that is very much there to anyone who's willing to embrace it for what it is: mutual, queer love. And they're sooo real 🩷💛

#bnha #togachako #animanga #mytext #and now we finally go to sleep. eepy.......#if tomorrow i'll wake up look at this again and find any typos i will end it all #long post

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invested-in-your-future · 9 days

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I am new to rwde stuff, and I'm wondering why Miles is so often singled out in criticism? Like, with self-insert stuff that makes sense, but I also see people criticize the relics/gods worldbuilding as a Miles thing, without mention of Kerry. Same for similar criticisms like the plot driving them into a corner in v10, or the mishandling of the WF plot line. Is there a reason for that, or is it holdover from not liking him for the self-insert? Is he the one who talks about it the most, or has he specifically claimed responsibility for that, or he writes more than Kerry, or something? Is it because he just seems to be the more public of the two of them, doing things like his cameos? Is he simply the more unlikable one? Thank you in advance, if you answer this question.

I think it is that, yeah - Miles is the one most often putting his foot in his mouth with weird hot takes that come back to bite him.

Him being tasked by Monty to watch a bunch of anime to see what NOT to do and ending up gushing about sword art online and loving the one soul eater character he was supposed to understand about being crass?

Him going on an off-tangent rant about how Korra world building is bad only to then rip off parts of that lore and it all end up a mess.

Him ranting how on how LGBTQ+ rep in Korra has absolutely no build up only for BB ending up getting ZERO PROPER DEVELOPMENT that it SHOULD HAVE GOTTEN FOR VOLUMES (because the show was too busy queerbaiting) and only getting a desperate kiss to attempt to get the views back up... (Mind you Korra was under a LOT of network restrictions and actually doing what the show did took actual guts while the only excuse RT has for dancing around the topic is "we don't wanna")

Him watching Land of Lustrous (a show about an immortal being experiencing trauma and PTSD and dealing with grief and existential crisis) and going "I don't get it" and then delivering the absolute messy v9 nonsense that literally vilifies trauma and goes against basic mental wellness concepts.

There's a trail of Miles stepping on the same rake over and over again going back years so he kind of became the face of all the wrong decisions taken in the show.

Plus, you know, yeah, Jaune is his baby and he somehow ends up being the faux protagonist of the show leeching off the screen time of actual protagonists and getting more development and focus than actual protagonists. And him being the guy to whom "the idea of brother gods came to in a dream" and it's easy to see why he kind of became the poster child for everything bad in the show.

However, Kerry is just as guilty for a lot of aspects of the writing but people are bit more lenient because again two worst parts of the show - Jaune and brother gods both come from Miles.

RWBY having borderline nonsensical setting and offensive problematic writing is a group effort though because RT as a whole never grew out of the "edgy homophobic jokes machinima youtuber" phase - not even after becoming a company that owns million dollar franchises.

#rwby #rwde #rwby asks

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lenaboskow · 8 days

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It’s actually insane to see Buddie shippers use the “there’s not enough male friendships on tv” card when it’s mainly used to dismiss more queer rep or dismiss it why would queer Eddie or the probability of Buddie be bad? There’s male friendships on nearly every tv show on rn it’s such a bs excuse and doesn’t sit right with me and is grossing me out (I don’t ship Buddie)

i agree, its a bs excuse used by networks and homophobes to get away with queerbaiting and just overall lack of representation. now, if we're using it purely for this show, then here's a list of male friendships that don't have romantic subtext

eddie and tommy

eddie and chimney

buck and chimney

buck and josh (we don't see much of this, but i like to think they talk off screen)

michael and bobby (i miss them)

chimney and tommy (from what i gather, chimney was pretty chill with him while tommy was at the 118. after, you know, he had to save his life to be treated like a person)

i didn't include bobby and the three judases because he takes on more of a fatherly role for them, especially buck, but feel free to include it here.

#911 spoilers #911 #911 on abc #911 abc

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nari-writes · 6 months

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What's a fic you want to write but are scared of?

Oh man. Aw man. I presume you mean something like "dang this is gonna be massive and I don't want to dive into it" but.

But.

This is a perfect excuse to segue into: I don't want to write this fic because I'll stick my foot in it. 'Cause of the relationship focus (PLATONIC!) that would just. The two factions of people who would see it would Both be angry/annoyed. Reading comprehension in this decade is horrendous. And I don't want to get death threats from people who won't read my explanation/won't get that I'm doing this for comedic purposes and ALSO as someone who ships a tiny-ass rarepair I do not want to engage in the....adjacent queerbait of "this is possibly an inherently romantic concept but I am playing it ENTIRELY straight"???

And then ALSO I don't ship them so I also don't want to fall into the trap of my OWN DANG SELF where I LOVE writing romantic drama and will potentially-possibly actually-accidentally turn it romantic simply because I love writing pining so much. It could be fun! I can see why their dynamic would be SO PAINFUL (and fun) to ship but I don't, but I know writing this WOULD MAKE ME want pinning involved. Because I love writing Romance. I'm a goddamn romance/fluff/plot author. It'd be there. A spectre. Haunting me. Cackling in a little :3c fashion. I know myself. I know myself. I will fail. I'm weak and the internal pressure of writing this would lead SO well to pining and then I'd probably get attached because I can justify so much so easily and when I write people stuck in romance-esque situations I make it Work for what I Like and I DON'T want to do that because I DON'T want to con myself into shipping this.

"what the fuck are you talking about Nari," you ask, "and why the hell are you adding so many disclaimers before you even go into the fic idea???"

So Dick Grayson gets married to the Red Hood.

(this is platonic) (BEAR WITH ME) (THIS IS PLATONIC)

1 x Bludhaven Cop finds out that he's gonna get called upon to testify against the Red Hood and due to some absolutely WILD Shenanigans that will never make more than a singular mention in the fic, the Bludhaven court currently is running around with Diana's lasso of truth and/or some other artifact that makes it LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE to lie on the stand. You WILL tell the truth. It is great for weeding out false confessions. The crooked cops and judges are incensed and trying to get rid of this thing ASAP but Dick has spent months trying to keep it safe and Still Working and he- he can't get rid of it.

And if Dick Grayson, Bludhaven Cop, current third witness in a case revolving around the Red Hood, gets on that stand...Oh Fuck He Knows So Many Red Hood Secrets. He 👏 knows 👏 so 👏 many 👏 secrets 👏

So Dick Grayson, Bludhaven Cop, sleep-deprived and panicking, goes: FUCK.

Well I can't be forced to testify against my spouse.

Jason howls when he hears what Dick has decided. He is absoLUTELY going along with this, this is the dumbest shit his brother has gotten himself into, how the FUCK is he gonna explain it to his co-workers. Jason is DELIGHTED at how stupid Dick is being. This man's a moron.

"oh I need to work within the confines of the law" YOU ARE A VIGILANTE, DICK, says Jason, cackling. Steal the damn thing!

BUT IT'S BEEN SO HELPFUL FOR THE COMMUNITY AND DECREASED FALSE ARRESTS, says Dick, so, so sleepy and so so emotional as a result. I CAN'T TAKE AWAY THEIR HOPE, JAY.

They do not have a ceremony. Jason grabs one of his lieutenants to act as signatory/witness and they go to the one branch of city hall that's in Crime Alley because Dick needs it done now and the case is in a week. There are three leaks in the ceiling. They are taking advantage of Jason's reputation to a) skip the line and waiting period and b) convince the magistrate to accept Jason's so incredibly fake ID:

(Chew. Chew. Pop.

Dick kinda wishes there was a polite way to say 'hey can you spit your gum out before it makes my brain explode from how not-seriously you're taking this super serious matter?' but he has a feeling something will get lost in translation, and the look on the registar's face is already deadpan and unimpressed.

Chew.

"And that's your legal name?" she asks, and the gum pops. Jason tilts his helmet, and Dick can imagine his grin; can hear it when Jason says,

"Definitely a legal one."

"You file your taxes under the name 'Red Hood'?" she inquires, her drawl filled with such a level of derision that Dick knows why she's chewing gum, now. It's to highlight how much she doesn't give a shit. Why is every resident of Crime Alley like this?

Her name tag says her name is Monica - Monica, like this is a normal day with a normal person! - and there are four people behind him with cellphones. There's a security guard behind them with a cellphone. He's not even calling the cops, he's definitely just recording them. Dick wants to vibrate out of his skin.

"Yep," says Jason, popping the p obnoxiously. "I'm an LLC, baby."

"Look, Monica," Dick says, shoving the bystanders out of his mind and giving her his most charming grin. "When secret identities come into play, getting married is a bit difficult. Dick Grayson is definitely dating the Red Hood-," holy shit he finally managed it without sinking into the depths of his 'how the fuck did we end up here???' self-spiral! "-which means if I want to marry him I have to marry the Red Hood. If I suddenly show up with some new, random husband that doesn't have this shiny primary-coloured helmet, isn't it going to be a bit weird?" And here's the part he can actually say with sincerity, even if, in this context, it'll mean something different- "I love him. I want to get married. But I need to protect him. Please?"

Monica looks at him. She looks at Jason. She pops her bubblegum, and then reaches for her stamp.

"Congratulations," she says, and slides the wedding certificate under the glass. "Enjoy domestic bliss.")

(We #loveMonica. She cares just barely about the legalities of marrying a crime boss and is Not Paid Enough to Deal With Anything Else).

Anyway, other things that occur that @midnightluck and I talked about, everyone say <3 <3 to Lucky for having the funniest goddamn words. Wildly out of order/messy/random humour things that occur (under readmore because this post is INSANELY long):

Precinct is Not Surprised by Officer Grayson revealing he has a partner, due to conversations like this:

(phone rings) "Grayson here. Wha--oh, hi. What? No, I didn't touch your book, you know I don't read your books. No, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with Chaucer, I just don't have the time-- can we. Can we not. Look, I don't know, maybe it's on the nightstand where you left it after that concussion last week? No, not the one with the grenade drawer, though we do need to talk about that, how do you go through so many so fast? No, I know that, that's why the spare room is your armory, I don't have a problem with that--yes, I know, but that doesn't mean-- ugh. You know what. No, I'm at work. This can wait. Uh huh. Uh huh. No, I want Thai. Thai. You owe me satay for this and you know it. What? Yes, we're still on the Robinson case; whatcha got for me? Uh huh. Uh huh. Really, them? Oh, I know that address, isn't that that warehouse where Timmy--yeah, haha, right? Oh, right? For sure. Let's get that picture printed; he'll hate it. Uh huh. Okay, gotta go, some of us have a day job--no one pays you to be a zombie, okay? Okay, see you at home. Bye."

Reasons why people think it is the Red Hood:

police officer Dick is doing a thing at work and suddenly! The Red Hood appears at his raid/bust/whatever! And he's all "drop the weapons or I'll get another duffle bag" and Dick goes, "Everyone chill a sec," pulls out his phone and is like, "Hey, Red Hood, are you in Blud right now?"

"No? You know I've got that thing at the harbour tonight. Why would I be in Blud?"

"Well, I've got a Red Hood and that's definitely your jacket and hood he's wearing, like, a couple iterations ago but it's yours. You piss off any magic users lately? Trip into any time slips? Dimensional mirrors?"

"No? Shit, when's he from, can you tell?"

"It's that jacket with the high collar, with the stain on the sleeve, you know the one? The red piping?"

"Huh. I haven't worn that one since two summers ago, so careful, he might be riding green?"

"Lemme check. One sec--hey! Mr Hood! How do you feel about Tim?"

"…Tim who?"

"…That's not me."

"That's not you. It's not a time dimensional thing, is it, mr Hood. You're just a copycat."

"I bet he found an old safe house, he stole my shit--Hey, asshole! Wait, am I on speaker? Put me on speaker. Hey, copycat! I want my stuff back! And I'm coming to get it!"

and later when the precinct has gotten sort-of-used to Dick Grayson "being married" to a vigilante:

Grayson and partner walk out the station doors and Red Hood descends upon them, gun out, gets right up in Dick's face and says "I swear to god Dickolas if you leave your wet towel on the ground one more time I will start washing it with peppers and make you regret everything."

2. The Precinct All So Fully Aware of Dick Grayson's secrets yeah man they all know it! Dick Grayson is....dating the Red Hood!

"Grayson? Yeah, he's dating the Red Hood, they're basically married--"

"W h a t, we are not--how--what--"

"oh shit, my bad man, y'all broke up? Sorry to hear it. Anyway, Grayson is the Red Hood's ex--"

"I'M NOT."

"-you're still together?"

"We were never together!"

(precinct decides to set up Officer Grayson and the Red Hood because OBVIOUSLY they've got a bond.png)

"you can encourage him away from crime, grayson!!!"

"I can't encourage him to do shit," dick grumbles, "i cant even get him to have a shower if he doesn't feel like it." (dick ignoring the times he has actively bullied jason into taking care of himself)

Every single not-dirty cop is just: no no of COURSE Grayson won't admit it. That's not fair! He loves being a cop. It must be so hard to balance justice with love.

3. married behaviour: Dick Grayson is Never Beating the Allegations

the Red Hood waltzing into the Blud police station all "here to see Grayson please--that way? (The guns are out but then he asks for Grayson and everyone's like oh shit yeah we wanna see this first hand) "Thanks. Dickiebird! Honey bun! Your forgot your lunch at home, puddin' pie!"

"…what."

"now, now, all these nice folks here have told me we're together, so we must be, mustn't we?"

"No?"

"Oh? You don't want your delicious lunch I handmade for you out of love?"

"…I…didn't say that…"

("Don't you love me?" Jason asks, and every single warning sign yells: this is a trap!! Dick contemplates burying his face in his hands.

"At work?" he says instead, wishing he could transplant his pain so Jason would stop finding such joy in his embarrassment.

"Oh, so you aren't bummed you forget your wonderful home cooked lunch at home? You're happy for me to turn around and take your lunchbox back home with me?"

Roll back- his what?

Jason smacks a bento box on his desk, the clear lid showing off tiny red sausages cut into mini replicas of Jason's helmet and tiny guns, and Dick chokes. Jason's face, he can imagine, is gleeful; his tone certainly gives it away. "And after I put in so much effort…"

"No, no, I love you," Dick says, lunging for the box and mentally discarding the stale coffee and sandwich made with slightly-off meat that he'd been planning to get from the cafeteria.)

Gives him the lunch, goes to kiss him on the head but with the helmet he just straight up bonks him painfully, waltzes out again. "See you later for dinner, sweetheart!"

"Sooo, Grayson…"

"can we arrest him? Why aren't we arresting him? He's super wanted, let's arrest him."

"Please, like we'd get involved in your domestic affairs"

Dick torn between Homemade food and god jay why are you doing this. Do you exist only to make him suffer. Why are you the most evil sibling.

The fake is the biggest one, the kickstart, because how would officer Grayson know that wasn't hood unless he knew the red hood well? - but then it's bits and pieces, that Dick doesn't even do consciously, and then Jay finding out and the Lunch Situation Dick gets called in by his captain and he's like no sir I swear sir it's not, I'm not-

I'm doing an undercover op

His captain, not buying that shit for a minute: uh-huh

Barbara: "okay but Deathstroke was bad enough, now you're going after the Red Hood? You've got a dangerous type, boy wonder"

"babs why are you doing this to me"

"don't pretend you don't know >:/"

babs hanging in the bludhaven office during Dick's lunchbreak and ABSOLUTELY supports more rumours. She's Dick's best friend!!! Of course SHE'D know about Dick's ~paramour~.

Dick is going to hide under his desk and Never Ever Come Out Again

His captain realising red hood is less violent when Grayson's on the scene and finally awkwardly is like "look….if it's because the Precinct isn't a safe space for you…"

"IF I REALLY WAS DATING A CRIMINAL IT SHOULDNT BE A SAFE SPACE."

so his co workers start working around it but then Dick gets into a situation where he'd Have to testify and he's like. Shit. and he goes NOPE SORRY CAN'T DO IT, CAN'T TESTIFY AGAINST MY SPOUSE WHO IS. THE RED HOOD. :) MY SPOUSE THE RED HOOD. (is dying)

Moment of quiet then "wait who won the pot? Was it Johnson? Mick, you owe me $20 personally--"

Jason is going to be insufferable.

But also yes, Dick getting wildly congratulated for "finally managing to put a ring on it" or some shit and he's like/ Don't put your head in your hands don't put your head in your hands, don't --

"So how'd you two meet?"

1: "he stole my dad's tires so we kidnapped him" (true)

2: "he attempted to kill my little brother and also my dad" (true)

3: "he saved me from a mugging?" (Embarrassing lie)

and you KNOW he has to say 3 tho, the other two may have come up earlier about Jason and he canNOT let anyone connect them

The bullpen dissolving into yelling as everyone tries to sort out bets. Dick being asked who/how popped the question.

4. Dick Grayson and "I was trying to infiltrate the dirty cops of the precinct but goddamnit being Red Hood's fiance has revealed there are so many of them- and now they're throwing me a stag party. great.

Dick trying to salvage any of his dignity: Red Hood proposed. He was very romantic about it. Read me Shakespeare. Threatened to maim my enemies. Very sweet

"awww.. it's really great that he's so enamored with you Grayson, you deserve it :))"

"and you stopped him at only maiming!!! Dude, nice!!"

"yep. That was his (grits teeth) proposal gift. No more killing."

Jason, busting into their apartment later: DID YOU TELL PEOPLE YOU WERE ENGAGED TO THE RED HOOD?

Except Jason busts in on a contingent of tipsy and delighted cops. Who are like oh!!! Grayson friend!! Celebrate with us!

Jason forcibly cuddled and celebrated with, trying to yell at dick in code: "YOU'RE MARRYING THE RED HOOD? ARE YOU CRAZY? WHAT ABOUT HIS REPUTATION."

Dick: "I CAN'T TESTIFY AGAINST HIM JAY. HE'S IMPORTANT TO ME."

Cop: "Wait you didn't tell your brother you were gonna have a wedding?!?"

"It was- it was a city hall thing! It's hard to be discreet- Hood didn't want witnesses-"

"Not gonna want witnesses for what happens next either," jason mumbles.

5. Tim Does Not Need to be Blackmailed into Humiliating Dick:

"Here to see Grayson please. That way? Thank you." (deep breath) "D--Dick?"

"Tim? Timmy, oh no, why are you crying, what's wrong, Tim, what--"

"How could you?"

"Little bird no, what did I do, Timmybird talk to me--"

"You're dating a supervillain? What if you get hurt??? Dick, this isn't like you!"

"...how much is he paying you."

"How could you think that of me!"

"Oh. What's he blackmailing you with?"

"I JUST WANT YOU TO BE CAREFUL," Tim howls, scrubbing his eyes and using his stupid babyface to great effect and Dick's gonna kill both of them

Dick finally get him to "calm down" and as they hug and say bye, Tim whispers, "if you think this isn't the funniest shit I've participated in all year you're out of your mind. Blackmail isn't required."

Dick, uncomfortably aware that Tim will help Jason stir the pot in cackling delight if he thinks something's funny, is not comforted by the fact that they're bonding. He is immediatly right, because he later finds pictures of himself drooling on Jason's shoulder, but they've been edited so Jason has on the hood. Several guys in the precinct think it's very sweet

("Aww I just thought Dick would like some family photos for his desk, y'know, officer John? Let him know we support him🥺")

6. Post-wedding wedding gift from the precinct:

"We had a whiparound for you, Grayson; here."

"…Uh. What."

"Well since you're with the Red Hood--"

"UH!?"

"--right, since you're totally not with the Red Hood and have no contact with vigilantes ever and James totally didn't see anyone crawl through your window the other night bleeding, we got you a good first aid kit. So you can learn and be a more supportive boyf--I mean. Just in case. First aid kits are a good staple of any mixed household :)"

Dick later delivering it: "Guys at the precinct got us a wedding present. It's a first aid kit."

"Oh? Cool, we're out of Oxy anyway, good timing--"

"it doesn't have Oxytocin in it, Jay, that's a controlled substance, they're cops!"

"Well then what use is it!"

"Its usefulness isn't the point! Anyway, they themed it."

"WAIT THEY DID WHAT" (immediately delighted and digging through the kit)

Someone has individually drawn tiny red hood helmets on the bandaids

A note like "eyo dick, washable red pen works rlly well if u wanna write notes to your beau on these too"

Jason cackles and puts a bandaid on his perfectly fine helmet because he's so charmed

Dick goes into work one day with a black eye, a small cut on his forehead, and a Red Hood bandaid over it. Jason has written a tiny message on the bandaid like "healing kisses applied".

One of the secretaries who works DV cases very worriedly and subtly approaches him but Dick just immediately says, "No I got mugged, he saved me"

"damn. You get mugged a lot in front of him huh-"

"Well I have that kinda face, I guess"

"good thing you've got someone to save you!"

"…Yes. It's a good thing I get saved. Yes indeed. Love it."

(gasp) "Is this a flirting thing???"

7. Dick Grayson Has a Type, don't you know?

Red Hood manages a short appearance with just the domino, not the hood, and he's dyed his hair temporarily red

(this backfires: Dick shamelessly takes the opportunity to glomp on and brag about his super smart so strong really amazing (little bro)

"he can bench me!! It's so cool! And he's so supportive when he does I feel so safe in his arms :)))"

"you're a loser and I'm gonna hurt you."

"and my enemies~")

8. FAMILY DINNER, BABY

Bruce: so. I heard something interesting the other day. The bludhaven Precinct got to celebrate an engagement

Dick: no

Bruce: congratulations, Dick

Jason, also lowkey dying bc he figured bruce would know but was also kinda not expecting him to bring it up in front of the WHOLE ENTIRE FAMILY

Bruce: I'm sure you've put plenty of thought into your....choice.

Dick: I'm going to self combust and then you won't have a son OR a dining room table. Is that what you want? Is that what you want, Bruce?

Bruce: I just wish you'd invited more family than just. Jason.

Dick: you're dead to me

Jason, mumbling: hey tbf I had to be there

Bruce: "I want you to know I support you, no matter what. Just because Red Hood is--"

Jason: "what, a vigilante? A zombie? A mass murderer? What am I, Bruce?"

Bruce: "--male, I don't see you any differently. You're my son, no matter who you love."

Bruce: I just wish- well, no, it was your choice. But I hope you know a private wedding won't get you out of wedding gifts.

Jason/Dick: nO

Bruce: I took the liberty of having them delivered already :)) And if you would- Just a small ceremony, in the backyard--it would mean a lot to Alfred, and to me--

Jason: OLD MAN WHAT DID YOU DO

Dick: there better be a return policy---

and because it's fucking Bruce he's absolutely using the excuse to get them So Much Fancy Bitch Shit

(And a dog 🐕)

Bruce: a home for a family :))) if you'd like. I know the Red Hood cares deeply for children. --and you know how I feel about your place in Blud, Dick, it's no place to start a family.

Dick: "Please don't tell me you bought us an apartment."

Bruce: "Don't be silly, boys. I bought the whole building. it'll give hood plenty of space to store his things away from the kids!"

Jason: what kids.

Bruce: well, I always presumed, from red hood's behaviour, he'd quite like a few children. Even just to foster.

Alfred coming out stone faced, "congratulations on your nuptials, master Dick. Felicitations."

Dick: "Not you too."

Alfred: Miss Gordon informed me.

Alfred, sounding disappointed as fuck: I'm glad I was informed by someone.

Jason: Bruce I'm absolutely gonna bury you

Bruce: may I meet my grandchildren first?

Bruce: Anyway that was Dick's present. Please give this to Mr Grayson-Hood--oh, did you not hyphenate? I assumed you would, apologies. It's full tuition to Blud U for however long he wants. Do give him my best wishes too.

And then Bruce just. So soft. "And please make sure he knows he's always welcome, if he'd like to join us for family dinners. No matter his profession or choices."

I feel like this line would be Way Too Much for Jason and he'd storm off tho 🥺 and Dick would have to go get him to Chill out.

"it's just Bruce. You know what he's like."

"Overbearing and insufferable?" Jason sneers, hands curled around his elbows, and being "married" has been awkward but at least it's finally started to mend the physical distance Jason's been keeping. Dick knows, when he slings his arm around Jason's shoulders and pulls him in close, that Jason isn't going to go stiff and angry.

"Hey. I have an idea on how to make you feel better," he says with a tease, and Jason grunts. "Okay, no, little wing hear me out. How are we gonna get divorced?"

#dick Grayson #jason todd #red hood #nightwing #batfam #batfam fic #fic ideas i probably won't write #ask aussie #aussie's anons #dc comics #batman #bruce wayne #batdad #they have the emotional intelligence of a set of teaspoons <3 #anyway. 🤫 whaaaat me sending this ask to me own self so I have an excuse to talk about this au? you'll never know!#dick grayson & jason todd #nari is writing

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