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marybeatriceofmodena · 4 years

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TFW when you try to do Anastasia but you also suck at your job: A Master Class by The Rise of Skywalker

Okay. So, I promised you guys a TROS review, and it’s coming, I promise… except I’ll be making two “spin-off posts” about specific issues just in order to clear up some stuff, mainly because in my mind, those issues are important.

First post is going to be, of course, about Rey’s parentage.

So. After TFA, it would have been possible for Rey to have been the kid of “someone”. However, TLJ made it impossible to do so, unless you’d have some serious, bullshit retconning going on – which is exactly what happened.

I know this is a VERY controversial thing to say at this point, but post-TFA, Rey Palpatine “could” have been possible. Okay, maybe not have her be Palpatine’s granddaughter, but more of a descendant of his.

This said, I “tried” making an origin story for Rey Palpatine that “works” for the purposes of this meta, on a hypothetical basis, while making it consistent with canon (something JJ Abrams and Chris Terrio clearly couldn’t be bothered to do, LMAO). I had plotholes no matter what. I do think I could have eventually found something with a little bit of brainstorming, but truth is, IT’S HARD, and a lot of exposition would have been for novels/comics only.

From a thematic perspective, though? It wouldn’t have been a bad idea. For this to work, though, you would have needed to go on full-blown Romeo and Juliet mode with sprinkles of Anastasia, though. I mean, The Lion King 2 did something similar, so why the fuck not. Because, yeah, Ben Solo, the grandson of Darth Vader, son of Han Solo and Leia Organa, the last prince of Alderaan, who falls in love with the last Imperial princess Rey Palpatine while they’re on opposite sides of the war but not the ones you’d think of is the stuff of fairy tales and star-crossed romances, except this one would have a happy ending and brought peace to the galaxy.

Truth be told, I still really enjoy fanfics who go for that story and find a way to make it work in canonverse or in AUs – because it’s genuinely fun. But in canon itself, as I point out earlier… it’s not easy.

So, we have Rian Johnson who said he made a list of potential origins for Rey while he was working on TLJ’s script. You bet Rey Palpatine was on that list. However, he came to the conclusion that Rey Nobody was the best way to go, and whatdyaknow, he made the right call.

Why? Rey Nobody requires minimal exposition. Storytelling-wise, you don’t have a lot of brainstorming to do, and it’s easy to have Ben revealing it, and easy to present it as a repressed memory of Rey’s. On a thematic level, that puts Rey on the same level as Jane Eyre or the main character from Rebecca: she’s a nobody from nowhere who is thrown into a family drama, and since she’s the glitch in the matrix, she must stop the story from becoming a tragedy.

See? Simple. You got your easy exposition, you got your thematic coherence, and you got the literary call-backs.

So, JJ and Terrio decided to retcon this shit because, as they said, they thought it was boring. I think Colin Trevorrow probably thought it was boring too, because I have my reasons to think a lot of TROS is from him (but more on that in my main review). But thing is, it’s not it’s “boring”, it’s literally that they didn’t know what the fuck to do with Rey. No, more than that, they don’t understand her, and frankly, they can’t be bothered to do so. She’s an empty vessel they can toy with at their ease, and in the process, turn her in a Mary-Sue. Because yes, TROS!Rey was a Mary-Sue, whereas TFA/TLJ!Rey was not. So, what I say above regarding Rey might be a bomb for some, considering how people are (understandably) defensive when it comes to that statement. I promise I will elaborate more about it in the main review, once again.

So, with the lineage aspect addressed, it’s time to talk about Rey’s parents themselves.

It’s hilarious how HARD JJ and Terrio tried to make Kylo’s explanation work – because as much as they butchered the shit out of him, they said: “Well he’s a bad liar, right? Gotta keep that in mind.”

Although, I don’t think it was a case of them being concerned with Kylo’s characterization – they’re not that graceful. They had to figure out QUICK why the hell Kylo wouldn’t have known Rey was a Palpatine from the get-go, because the Force is a great DNA test and shit, and I guess that’s how Palps located Ben’s Mighty Skywalker Blood™. Except that still doesn’t work because Palps couldn’t even locate his own goddamn granddaughter, but I digress.

Seriously, why would Kylo lie to Rey about her being a nobody instead of her being a Palpatine? It makes no sense, because if you’re going to roll with the theory Kylo just wants UNLIMITED POWAH, the Palpatine princess is not only a great asset (since marrying her legitimizes your claim to the throne in the eyes of the Imperial Remnants, I mean, that’s literally why Henry VII married Elizabeth of York), it’s also the one argument she needs to hear in order to sway her to your side. So I guess JJ and Terrio’s one shared brain cell kinda flicked a bit at that moment.

This said, getting the Palpatine princess on his side is clearly Kylo’s intention in TROS (which, again, makes no sense with what was set up in TLJ but that’s something I’m keeping for another post), except they trip all over themselves by having Kylo say he didn’t lie to Rey in TLJ. Except…

So, what Ben said in TLJ was the following:

Her parents sold her for drinking money.

They’re dead and buried in a pauper’s grave somewhere on Jakku.

Rey is related to no one.

Here’s what Ben reveals to Rey in TROS:

Her parents sold her for her protection.

They died on another planet, while being hunted down by a guy working for Palpatine and instructed to bring Rey back to them.

Rey’s dad is a Palpatine and Rey’s mom is Villanelle (nah, for real: the actress who plays Rey’s mom is Jodie Comer).

So, um, yeah, it’s the EXACT opposite of what Ben said in TLJ. Just say Palps was fucking with Ben’s mind-reading or Rey’s memories instead, JJ. Not that “Oh Ben was telling the truth, but he didn’t have the whole story”, because that’s not it.

For the latter, once again, it would have been feasible: the one thing, for me, that was possible to be added was that Rey had killed her parents accidentally, by having their ship to leave Jakku crash down with the Force: that’s what made her Force powers go dormant for all those years and provoked her trauma. It would also make sense that Ben would willfully not bring that back to her memories, because she’d understandably not be able to cope with the truth, which is often what happens to a lot of trauma victims. THAT was the theory I had pre-TROS, because that’s the only answer I could come up with when it came to JJ saying that there was more to Rey’s past. I guess I expected JJ to be, like, actually able to write, lmao.

I even wonder if that was actually in the cards, considering we see Rey in TROS bringing down a transport that supposedly has Chewie in it… but I guess they deemed that to be “too dark” for their heroine. Except the bullshit that comes instead is actually… much worse.

To make things simple, I’ll just take the above points and develop them.

Rey’s parents sold her for her protection.

Okay, so, Rey’s parents need to hide her to make sure Palps doesn’t get his hands on her. Fair enough. This said, why did it have to be Jakku and not, like, ANYWHERE ELSE? Especially that Palpatine had interest in Jakku at some point and that maybe having Rey anywhere close to that place would not be a good idea?

But let’s play the game and say that Jakku is the only place they can hide her because… I don’t know, it’s hard to find someone there with the Force. Whatever. Even then, why the fuck would they think Unkar Plutt is a proper guardian for a tiny little girl? You know they could have walked a few miles more and found a nice old man who likes the Light Side of the Force and the Jedi and all that shit called Lor San Tekka? Hey, why not even try to find a guy like Luke Skywalker who’s like, a Jedi and shit, and have him take care of their little girl and protect her?

Even then, why the hell doesn’t Rey’s mom stay with her daughter? Her husband is the Palpatine, not her. All Rey’s mom has to do is find a nicer hiding place for her and Rey somewhere on Jakku, like, not Niima Outpost (again, Tuanul is just a few miles away), and just let Dad hide somewhere else. He’s a grownass man, he can take care of himself and he just has to hide on Nar Shaadaa or some shit. Fuck, why don’t all three of them hide on Nar Shaadaa? Or in the Coruscant undercity? ANYWHERE ELSE?

Also, wouldn’t Plutt clearly see two desperate parents as a business opportunity? Like, if you want to do a Les Misérables comparison here, he wouldn’t “buy” Rey from them, he’d try to get money for them à la Thénardier with Fantine. Except Rey’s parents make Fantine look like frigging Einstein because at least she had the excuse of thinking Madame Thénardier would take good care of Cosette since Éponine and Azelma seemed well-cared for.

Again, a creepy-looking alien who exploits the outpost’s inhabitants for portions in exchange for junk, who asks you to pay him to take care of your kid should be a big fucking red flag – unless you want to involve blackmail, but that’s a whole other can of worms.

Seriously, why the hell would Rey’s parents even ACCEPT money that comes from selling their own child? Were they really that desperate? Fuck, even if I had no other way of getting off Jakku, I wouldn’t even THINK of using money that comes from selling my own child. Any parent who’d even CONSIDER doing that is automatically a godawful parent in my book. Shame on you. And shame on JJ for trying to make me buy them as saints, because THEY’RE NOT, JUST BY THAT SINGLE ACTION.

They died on another planet, while being hunted down by a guy working for Palpatine and instructed to bring Rey back to them.

I didn’t notice it until Jenny Nicholson pointed it out in her TROS review, because it SOMEHOW completely escaped my notice, but… Rey’s mom saying Rey is DEFINITELY NOT on Jakku is like the worst fucking lie I’ve ever seen in a film because it’s so hilariously bad. Congratulations, Space Villanelle, may you be forever remembered for this line.

Also, it’s stupid af that Oshi (that’s his name, right? Can’t be bothered to Google it, might just call him Barney the Bounty Hunter from now on) just kills Rey’s parents, because HE’S EVUL MUAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA, because he literally creates a dead end for himself. He still has no fucking clue where Rey is, and he just killed off his only leads. CONGRATULATIONS BARNEY THE BOUNTY HUNTER, YOU SUCK AT YOUR JOB.

Rey’s dad is a Palpatine and Rey’s mom is Villanelle.

So, Rey’s dad looks like he’s in his early thirties at most, right? Maybe a little younger than Luke and Leia, then. So, unless he got frozen in carbonite at some point, that means Palpatine fucked at some point while looking like this:

Anyway, I sure hope Sly Moore was Grandma Palpatine because she’s pretty much the only person who’d be game to smash raisin ass. Which leaves me with extremely disturbing pictures of Palps and Sly having sex, so I’ll spare you the more graphic details of my twisted mind that’s screaming for an end to this misery.

I sure hope having Rey’s mom as Jodie Comer isn’t a clue that we’ll get spin-offs with those two (GOD PLEASE NO), but while I crack jokes about how Rey’s mom is Villanelle and Palpadad kinda looks like Ramsay Bolton… I find it fucking hilarious they dressed Rey’s mom in BLUE. LIKE, SEE? SEE? SHE’S IN BLUE, LIKE THE VIRGIN MARY, BECAUSE REY IS SPACE JESUS!!!! GET IT??? GETIT???? PLEASE TELL ME YA GET IT, OKAY???? *gross sobbing* I knew we should have had Rey born in a manger, that would have made the artistic intentions clear *wipes tear*

All right. There’s a lot more that could be said about Rey’s lineage, but I’m keeping that for my main review because what’s left to say ties up to the bigger picture. What I tried to point out with this preliminary post is that while Rey Palpatine *could* have worked, in different circumstances, it couldn’t have had post-TLJ… and we’re left to see a mutilated horse who was dead on arrival. And that’s tragic.

#star wars #tros spoilers #the rise of skywalker spoilers #rants and reviews #anti tros #rey #reylo #my meta #reylo meta #rey meta

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surflove808 · 5 years

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On Destiel and endgame hysteria

Sometimes I get fired up about some of the BS I see in this fandom and this is one of those moments. This post will be a layercake of sentimentality, disappointment, anger and maybe a wee bit (a lot) of profanity. So, you know. Back on my bullshit.

The show that we love, love to hate or hate to love, for better or worse, will see it's final curtain call at the S15 finale. You don't need me to tell you how impactful it's been and how much it means to so many people for a variety of reasons that extend well beyond it's entertainment value. All it takes is one scroll through social media to get a sampling of the reach of this little-show-that-could and by extension (and because of) it's cast, to see that it's beloved by so many. And it deserves the praise, and the end deserves to be lamented - but like TFW has said over and over, and to paraphrase Frank Sinatra, they're doing it their way. For that? I'm happy.

The show has been described as a "juggernaut" and an "institution", and it is. We all know the themes: Finding *your* family, struggle, perseverance, dedication, making mistakes and not always learning from them (but trying), acceptance, the beauty in humanity even when all hope seems lost, redemption, and love... to name the big ones. Now about Love. "Love" is not threatening to burn down houses if your ship isn't made canon. "Acceptance" isn't threatening the cast, crew, producers and network with lawsuits if your ship isn't made endgame. I saw a few posts like that today that had a very disappointing number of likes and reblogs and I'm kinda furious, to be honest. You fucking twits.

As someone who enjoys the show, and respects the determination, sacrifice, hard work, creativity, and yes - Love - that has been poured into this endeavor, I don't think I'm alone when I say - JUST. STOP. You whining, tantrum throwing, self-important, "wouldn't catch a social cue if it had a $100 bill attached to it and was tossed to you from 3 feet away", obnoxious, divisive children.

Accept what the cast, the writers and Eric Freaking Kripke have told you? No... can't do that. Must hop from one lily pad of delusion to the next and have the gall to be self righteous about it. And then pat yourselves on the back for being alternately clever, threatening and obtuse. You're like the Donald Trumps of the SPN fandom. You're not disliked because of your ship. You're disliked because of your personalities. Let that sink in. No one is marginalizing you. You chose to do this to yourselves AND your beloved ship via your words and actions. You sunk your own battleship and now you’re pissed.

I don't affiliate myself with any ship or the other factions of this fandom.... I don't get it. I'm just a fan. A fan of the story, the acting, the tragedy, the comedy, the characters and the character of the actors involved. I don't know what a good "fan" is... don't care. But I know what a bad one is. A bad one thinks that they can take ownership of someone else's art just because they've "invested" in it.

And I apply it to my own life in this way - Here I am doing my thing, putting my creativity out into the world... and what I create matters to me. Every little bit. I throw myself into the things I'm passionate about. And not everyone is going to be thrilled with what I produce. Some people will never see what I put out there, but word travels fast when you genuinely care about your craft. I do what I do because it drives me, and always has. And I do my best to stay true to MY story. And the thought of someone trying to insert themselves into my story because they think they know my creations better than I do, makes me want to punch throats.

And the thought of a group of people actually threatening me and the people I collaborate with because I'm not making their fantasy a reality?? Hey - get fucked sideways without lube, and throw some sand in there for extra discomfort.

I want you (and you know who you are) to have some accountability. Please tell me in what scenario is your behavior warranted or appropriate. Feel free to DM me. I won't "out" you, and I'll never be abusive - I just need to know why. (bullet pointing this because... reading comprehension)

1. WHY is Destiel is the only representation you'll accept.

2. WHY do you think it's funny or "OK" to harass the creatives on this show constantly when you have absolutely no right to their story?

3. WHY do you think that pushing something so hard will get you what you want?

4, And lastly.... WHY is this so important to you?

Can you possibly survive if Destiel isn't made canon? Do you have other hobbies and interests that can fill your time? Because some of ya'll are acting like this is the Be All End All of your existence and I'm here to tell you - it's really not. If it DOES happen, it will be at the discretion of the showrunner and creatives, and I promise you it won’t be because they caved to the small, yet omnipresent faction of Destiehellers that have annoyed the ever-living fuck out of everyone attached to this show. It’ll be on their terms.

The tantrum strategy stops working after age 4, usually....it just seems some of you are late getting the memo. Thanks to your folks. Well done.

Try to appreciate the show for what it is and always has been. If your expectations are unreasonable and are buoyed by years of manips, misquotes and over-analyzation of brief "moments" between ANY characters, and you feel emotional enough about it to behave badly - it's time for a factory reset. This show has never mislead you - you’ve bought into delusion and over-analysis and straight-up fiction pimped to you by fellow “fans” probably before you even watched your first episode. It’s the weirdest thing I’ve seen. And I’ve seen some shit.

If you’re going to be angry... be angry at your friendly neighborhood Destiel dealer. They chumped you to get more *buy* for their *supply*. Them’s the facts.

That being said.... Can We Just Appreciate The Final Moments That This Amazing Cast And Crew Are Going To Give Us (and you know they will), And Let It The Fuck GO?

You're welcome to block me (you probably should). But before you do that, could you let this sink in a bit? And if you see a fellow shipper being an entitled douche - maybe hold yourself to a higher standard than they do themselves and don't perpetuate it/like/reblog it? Because this behavior is well and truly a shitty way to treat the legacy of this groundbreaking show, and all those that are responsible for bringing it to life.

In other words....Behave. And have some goddamn dignity.

I’m not sure if I’m doing this right, but my response was so long. Eh...whatever. @jessiegail I understand, and please allow me to elaborate. When I was scrolling through the Jensen tags (because the Dean and SPN tags have been overrun by a lot of people with zero respect for the character/show canon, so I stay away anymore. That in and of itself should tell you something)... I was also sharing in the moment, and the news and wanted to see some SPN love and positivity. What I ran into almost immediately was, and I quote: "If they don't make destiel cannon (sic) for the series finale, I'll set their houses on fire. You've been warned." 87 people agreed with @moosewncstr on this sentiment. Now... if it was one shitty person and people steered clear of any affiliation with them for threatening arson because they're completely off their fucking rocker.... that would be easy to ignore. But 87 people?? That’s really, really bad. What I'm seeing and have been seeing, is a hive-mind mentality that doesn't care for acceptance. Doesn't care if it’s abusive. Doesn't care if someone gets their “feelings” hurt. And they absolutely Do Not Care if what they say incites the potential reality of violence, as long as they can force their ship down the throats of as many people as possible and Make It Canon.

And by hive-mind, I mean - NO ONE in the Destiel camp seems to have the degree of autonomy (AKA: Balls) required to rein in the bad apples in their bunch. They either agree or stay silent. So, because you can’t self-regulate, people like me with no concern or desire for your approval have to come in and tell you to knock your shit off. You won’t. But I feel better. And maybe others will feel more comfortable to express their disapproval when shit like this rears its ugly head. Anyone who would think threats (just a joke...hahaha), are acceptable, and those who are in agreement can suck it. And i will not roll over and sing kumbaya with anyone who thinks this is ok. I'm generally careful with the headers and lead-in paragraphs to posts that are potentially inflammatory. A courtesy that is not extended by your brethren. You had ample warning that this post would not be kind to asshole shippers. I don’t think you are one of those people - but, if you’re defending this behavior, I can’t really empathize with you. I also don’t want you to feel targeted. This isn’t about YOU. This is about endemic behavior that has become so toxic, it pretty much can’t be undone. As for paying anything forward, I do not owe people who act like this the time of day, much less a kind word. I have 2 choices: I can stand by and pretend I don't see these things and block, block, block so that I can stay in my bubble. Or, I can take my own little stand on my own little blog and address genuinely disturbing behavior using language of my choice. What I will never do is threaten or abuse any individuals who question my logic. Downside is... you'll get a very long winded explanation. Go, be happy. Enjoy your ship. No one is telling you not to. I'm telling you right now, though - I can't and won't tolerate the bad apples. Best to block me if you're sensitive to the way I word my posts, but understand - I'm not promoting hate or abusive behavior - I'm fighting it. And I will continue to do so as long as I'm on this dumpster fire of a website, because I love this show and I believe all of the creative's, crew and fans deserve some fucking respect.

#SPN Family #dean winchester #Sam Winchester #castiel #Destiel #destiehellers #supernatural #jensen ackles #jared padalecki #misha collins

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siren-theories · 5 years

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Repeating the past - Ben and Ryn as modern parallels to Charles Pownall and his mermaid?

When I wrote my previous post about the Pownall Massacre I noticed just how many parallels between the massacre and our trio exist, especially for the characters of Ben and Ryn. In fact, I saw so many parallels that I started writing the following as the last part of my analysis. But I soon realized that this was too large and merited an article of its own.

If you are unfamiliar with the story of the Pownall Massacre feel free to read my previous article on it (or alternatively you can just accept my conclusions at face value).

Gifs in this post are either taken from the official freeform site, Crayonboxhearts, koortega or sirensource.

Due to the characters involved in the Charles Pownall story this analysis has to mainly focus on Ben and Ryn. I apologize beforehand if it seems as if I am ignoring Maddie. You will understand why once you get to the last part of this article.

Hypothesis: The story of Charles H. Pownall and his mermaid might be repeating itself in the form of Ben and Ryn (and to a certain extent Maddie).

(Polymarine fans upon reading the previous sentence)

The looming threat of Ben turning into his ancestor and Ryn into the original mermaid is always present in the show and adds drama and spice to their relationship. A huge part of what makes their relationship worth watching is experiencing how they overcome the past - or not - and how they make different choices than their respective families / societies. This piece will examine how the show creates parallels and in which way they differ from the original characters.

Part I: The Parallels

There are multiple obvious parallels between the story of Charles and his mermaid and our trio, so many in fact that this is very unlikely to be coincidental.

1. Charles Pownall was the first of the Bristol Cove community to meet a mermaid and became entranced with her and her song

(ELAINE: “I*m curious, how did you and Ben become friends? RYN: Ben almost hit me with car.”)

Likewise, Ben is the first person in close to 150 years to meet a mermaid and he too becomes entranced with her song in Episode 101: “The Mermaid Discovery”.

2. Both Charles and Ben were already in a committed relationship when they met the mermaid.

Charles was married to an unnamed woman (presumably Bens great-great-great-grandmother), Ben was dating Maddie for several months until Ryn arrived on the scene.

(Player 3 has entered the game)

As with Charles, the new presence complicates the existing relationship, to the point that Ben and Maddie break up for a short while in Episode 110 when he (under the influence of the song) consistently put his need to protect Ryn over communicating with Maddie.

3. Charles and the mermaid lived together on land.

(”Ryn choose[...] I stay on land with Ben and Maddie”)

Ryn too lives with Ben and Maddie on land, As of 209, she wants to stay on land permanently even though it might put her in danger.

4. Charles Pownall suffered from alleged mental illness due to the song.

Likewise, Ben and Maddie experience visions and exhibit poor impulse control after being exposed to it. This ranges from visions of Ryn being in danger to a unique way of telling your prospective inlaws about the nature of your relationship with their son and the “friend from Finland”.

5. Charles tried alcohol to cope with the effects of the song.

(Episode 209 “No North Star” and Episode 211 “Mixed Signals”)

Maddie and Ben start drinking alcohol whenever missing Ryn or daydrinking when under the effect of the song.

6. Charles started to act abnormally when his mermaid was gone.

Ben and Maddie also act abnormally whenever Ryn might have left them for good. Ben takes risky trips to sea at night in Episode 105 "Curse of the Starving Class" , both Maddie and Ben self-medicate with the song in Episode 209 "No North Star".

7. As with Charles the song causes brain damage in Ben and Maddie.

(“My song do this? Make Heads go dark?” - from Episode 211: “Mixed Signals” )

8. It is likely that Charles’ mermaid was the one initiating the sexual part of the relationship.

"I have a dream. About Ben.[...]Maddie says it is because I want you."

While Ben and Ryn discussed having feelings for each other before, it is Ryn who pursues him in 204 “Oil and Water”.

Ryn is the first to kiss both Maddie and Ben (mimicking human behaviour in episodes 105 and 106 with first true kisses happening in episode 204). It is Ryn who first states the wish to have sexual relations with the other two.

All subsequent sexual encounters we see depicted on the show happen with Ryn being the one initiating them.

(Episode 208)

(Episode 209)

(Episode 210)

(Episode 213)

9. According to other humans the mermaid was a woman of ill repute, even slandered as a tavern prostitute after her disappearance.

Likewise, Ryn is seen as a drug addict, murder suspect and person-who-holds-wild-orgies-at-the-cabin-with-Ben by elements of the police force. The look on Deputy Marissa Staub's face when Ryn appears besides Ben at the Cabin in Episode 203 “Natural Order” speaks volumes.

(Tfw you discover the local prince is way too intimate with the local druggie, offending conservative sensibilities everywhere. Oh the humanity.)

Marissa also likely views Ryn as a home-wrecker (considering she knows Maddie is dating Ben and is close to Dale), much the same way other humans would have viewed Charles mermaid.

10. Charles and the Mermaid had a baby

One thing missing at this point in the show is the presence of a hybrid baby but that might (and I think eventually will) change in the following seasons. There were multiple scenes in Episode 213 where both Ben and Ryn clearly exhibited signs of wanting to have children with each other and one scene in particular where they both had to force themselves not to do so within that episode.

[Sidenote: The acting in Episodes 213-216 was on point.]

Wwhether there will be a baby in the relationship due to Ryn getting her full-blood baby back (although I think it more likely that one - if it survives - will end up with the other sirens in the sea) or a hypothetical future hybrid baby she might have with Ben (something I personally thnk will be the direction the show will eventually take in the penultimate, maybe ultimate season) the massive anvil sized hints the writers dropped in 213 are too huge to ignore.

[Sidenote: Would Ben and Ryn need IVF to conceive? Probably not. As the tests showed in Episode 213 "The Outpost" there was nothing wrong with Ryn. I believe the problem with getting pregnant was firmly on the male side as infertility in apex predators (and humans) is most often a male problem and the procedure they used is typically used to fix low sperm count in male humans. More on that maybe in a later article.]

11. There is persistent symbolism associated with Charles Pownall, Ben and Ryn in Season 1

In Episode 109 “Street Fight” the most tragic event of Season 1 (Donna getting fatally wounded) happens right near the statue of Ben's Ancestor, with the camera panning over to the statue multiple times to make sure the audience gets the hint.

It also featured a storyline of Ben acting increasingly irrationally (albeit in a very mild manner compared to Charles) while trying to protect Ryn from Katrina.

Conclusion:

So there you have it. The Siren trio is just a retelling of the Charles Pownall story adapted for modern times, destined for the same tragic ending. After all, the parallels are there. Charles = Ben, his mermaid = Ryn.

(Polymarine representatives gather near the author’s house to register their difference of opinion, 2019, decolorized)

Maybe not.

Or rather, this is not the same story and the show tells us that they are not reliving the past.

B) Differences

Whereas the story of Charles Pownall was that of a tragedy and eventual separation, the story of our trio is not. In fact, what the writers are going for seems to be the kind of story that shows that people in similar situations might act in a different manner than their ancestors and thus that similar situations might have different, better outcomes.

Let us take a look at the ways the show differentiates the trio from the Pownall story and also the ways the show outright tells us that this is not the same story.

1. Ryn and Ben’s motivations are different than those of their ancestors

Unlike the mermaid which helped Charles find material wealth, Ryn's initial motive is to find her sister, then stop the overfishing, then safeguard her pack, then save her species from extinction. This of course is accompanied by the motive of Ryn to stay with Ben and Maddie, a motive which might even have taken priority if Ryn leaving her pack to stay on land permanently in Episode 209 is any indication.

The initial motive on the actions of Charles were profit (and maybe fame), which is definitely not the case with Ben who seems to not care much about material wealth as evidenced by Episode 108 where he declines a new car.

ELAINE: "Your car is disgusting." BEN: "I like my car" ELAINE: "We could buy you a new one, you know. One of those electrics....good for the environment."

Ben could easily become famous and have a huge career boost by "discovering" Ryn and publishing his findings but he does not. Instead his main motive seems to protect both humans and Sirens from harming each other - something that Ryn comes to eventually share as well.

2. The characters act as a bridge between the cultures, not as dividers

The show sometimes attaches imaginery to fit that purpose, as in Episode 203 “Oil and Water”.

(Let's just look each other in the eyes for 30 seconds while the merpack safely sleeps between us and hope that the viewers are not too distracted by the sexual tension to not notice the symbolism)

The writers further bring up the idea of characters (specifically Ryn) acting as a bridge between the cultures in Epsiode 206.

RYN: “Shapeshifter like me” DALE: Yes. And in those stories, the ones like you often represent the idea of two worlds coming together. [...] But maybe that is your calling, to lead my kind and your kind to a peaceful existence in this new world.”

In 208 Ben reveals his hope that eventually the two species can live together (again) in harmony (something that Ryn, Maddie and Ben already practice on a smaller scale).

3. When facing a choice between their respective societies/families and their relationship the trio consistently chooses the relationship

After becoming Alpha in Episode 109 "Street fight" Ryn still choses to leave her pack behind to stay on land.

In 207 Ryn decides to volunteer as a military test subject in order to get Ben out of jail.

This was a very risky choice - she had no reason to trust the military, no reason to believe they would ever let her go and she also risked her entire pack's welfare by placing herself in the hands of the military. Yet she still did it for Ben.

In episode 208 Ryn leaves her pack to spend the night with Ben and Maddie and in episode 209 she reveals she permanently wants to stay with them no matter the costs or risks attached, even though it might expose her to capture by the military and thus risk her colony. The vehemence with which she defends her choice is telling.

RYN:"Ryn hurt inside. Need Ben and Maddie" BEN: "We need you too. There is a woman looking for you". MADDIE: "She's with the military. RYN: "Yes. I help her." BEN: "Why?" RYN: "She get Ben out of cage." MADDIE: "You agreed to work with her to get Ben out of jail?" RYN: "Yes." BEN: You shouldn't have done that" RYN: "Ben is love" BEN: "Look you shouldn't have put yourself in danger for me." MADDIE: "We think it's better for you to go back to the water. Just for a while."

At this suggestion, Ryn gets visibly angry.

RYN: "Ryn choose...Military was bad to sister, but good to Ryn." MADDIE: "For now. But we don't know what they want to do to you." RYN: "I stay with Ben and Maddie."

Ben likewise rejects his family business and refuses to follow in the footsteps of his ancestors. When presented with a "dark" vision of himself in Episode 214 he rejects it with horror. He consistently lies to his family to keep Ryn safe and to help her. Most importantly at the end of Episode 215 “Sacrifice” he puts Ryn’s safety above the health of his own mother, who might very well die because of this choice.

Kyle, slimeball extraordinaire and commander of the military facility had previously told Ben that his mother would need another injection of Ryn's stem cells soon in order to continue healing, leading to the following conversation:

MADDIE: “As soon as he finds out what we did, that'll be the end of our relationship with him.” BEN: “Yeah. This is what matters right now. For Ryn and her species. All the rest we'll just have to figure out.”

Maddie likewise choses to protect Ryn and breaks a solemn vow to her father to do so in Episode 107 “Dead in the water” . While maybe not on the same level of the above-mentioned sacrifices made by Ryn and Ben there is not a single reason to doubt that she too would choose her two mates over anybody else.

4. The human families of the trio are not openly hostile to them being together with Ryn

Charles Pownall's family was hostile to the mermaid with the Hawkins being permanently ostracized by the Pownells.

The human families reaction to the relationship between Ben, Ryn and Maddie are different from that. Maddie's mother, Susan, is concerned - but not about the nature of the relationship, instead she is concerned about Maddie getting hurt. We do not know what Dale thinks about the relationship or if he even knows about it though I find it hard to believe Maddie would keep it from him. Thus I would argue he at least tolerates it).

Ben's father seems completely unfazed by his son being in a polyamorous relationship. If anything he seems more amused by the display Maddie made when she announced that she, Ryn and Ben were in such a relationship instead of the fact itself.

HELEN: "That was quite the show" TED *laughs* : "That's one way to put it. I just hope those three figure it out, whatever it is."

Elaine was shocked but that might have been more due to the nature of the announcement - she certainly did not have any problems with Ryn kissing Ben in Episode 209 despite knowing that Ben was with Maddie.

There are a few caveats to the above. Nobody except Dale knows Ryn’s true nature. Ted's reaction might very well be different and even hostile in the future considering he is on the verge of finding out about Ryn. Of course the Sirens having something to do with the boat accident that crippled Elaine or that Elaine might suffer more in the future due to Ryn having to withhold stem cells from her might also cause Ted and Elaine to react negatively in the future.

5. (Human) society has evolved a bit since the 19th century

Humans in the 19th century would not have reacted kindly to an unmarried woman (the siren) spending time with a married man (Charles) , even if they did not know her true origin,

[Sidenote: If you want to have a “fun” time read up what people did in the 19th and early 20th centuries to sabotage relationships that were considered abnormal. In the infamous example of Virginia Woolf this even involved a plane chase across two countries.]

When the trio's human friend Xander learns about the relationship, his reaction is one of surprise and shock. (You can watch the scene here). However a discussion between him and Maddie in Episode 212 confirms that this is not due to a rejection of the nature of the relationship but more about Xander's worry that the Siren song is controlling Maddie. After being told this is not the case, he drops that objection and while he certainly does not like the relationship he is not taking active steps to sabotage it unlike 19th century people might have

In fact it seems as if nobody in Bristol Cove much cares about the relationship the three have. There must by now be a considerable amount of people seeing the trio interact in public like this:

(Yes officer, this scene right here)

And multiple people in the anchor saw Ryn and Ben dancing together in 204 in a manner that was way too intimate to just be friends.

(Taking bets on the number of gaskets Deputy Marissa will blow when she hears about this happening.)

Especially in a small town like Bristol Cove where everybody knows each other the gossip mill must already run wild about the trio. However nobody seems to mind.

This of course is a major difference of today's society to the 19th century society of Charles and his mermaid. Today's society cares much less about things like adhering to strict heterosexual norms and two-person relationships. Unlike in the 19th century where even marrying below your station would be considered a betrayal and seriously threaten your standing in society, the acceptance of sexuality and relationships as fluid concepts is at an all-time high.

There is only one person who openly is hostile against Ryn spending time with Ben and Maddie in the show and that is Deputy Marissa. However Marissa also believes that Ryn is a drug addict, possible dealer, possible murder suspect and person-who-holds-wild-drug-orgies-at-the-cabin-with-Ben. No wonder she is hostile to Ryn given that it is her duty to protect Bristol Cove from bad influences - which her inaccurate version of Ryn definitely is.

If anything it seems that the Siren society is less accepting of the relationship than humans are (at least Cami and Katrina are appalled by it). But as long as Ryn is Alpha then what are they going to do about it without risking an immediate beatdown by an enraged Ryn?

[Sidenote: At this time I feel it is my solemn duty to link you this great video of humans reacting to the trio, edited by Koortega.]

6. The reactions to the Siren Song might be different from those of Charles

This is more speculative than the other parts of this post because we do not know the specific reactions of Charles Pownall to the song. Yet so far - and speaking strictly about the effect of the song on the relationship - whenever the song is used it does not have negative effects with regards to threatening the relationship.

Ben's visions are not about domineering or being possessive about Ryn, but ultimately about protecting her (Episode 110 “Aftermath” and to a lesser extent Episode 203 “Natural Selection”), realizing he might hurt her through his behaviour and reaffirming how much he loves her (Episode 214 “The last mermaid”).

Likewise Maddie, despite being exposed to the more harmful defensive variant of the song only wants to tell the world about how much she loves Ryn and Ben.

[Sidenote: There is also the unlikely possibility that the relationship between Charles and his mermaid was solely based on the song, which in any case is not true for our trio.]

A cure for the brain damage due to the song also exists and the experience of obtaining that cure together brings the throuple closer together.

(From Episode 212: “Serenity”)

So there you have it. There are enough differences between the trio and Charles Pownall and his mermaid to not have them go down the same dark path. But in this case the show goes even further.

C) The events of the last episodes of Season 2

The writers themselves tell us in no uncertain terms in the last four episodes of Season 2 that this is not the same story because Ben and Ryn are not their respective ancestors.

In Episode 213 and 214 as the Pownall massacre as well as Ryn’s mating drive and her unilateral actions based on that drive put the relationship to its hardest test.

It is important to note that the writers used multiple contrivances to arrive at this point. For the biggest example, Ryn seems to have suddenly developed complete memory loss with regards to her knowledge about Ben being a Pownall. Which is more than a bit contrived considering Ben and Maddie discuss his father owning Pownall’s two meters away from her while she is clearly listening in Episode 106 “Showdown”.

This was not something Ryn overheard considering later in the same episode:

DONNA: I see his face. In that place take our food. RYN: That was not him. That was his father. Writers of Episode 213: FAKE NEWS.

Oh and if there was any doubt left there is also that time Bens father was called Mr. Pownall in front of Ryn in Episode 108.

(WRITERS: “You saw nothing.”)

In Episode 110 Helen explicitly names the father of the hybrid baby as “Charles Pownall” and also confirms that Ben and her are related through Charles. This is done while Ryn is listening and participating in that conversation (I have transcribed the whole conversation in my previous post about the massacre)

Ryn also seems to have paid no attention at all to her surroundings while living with Ben and Maddie for months (c’mon, does that sound anything like the hyperobservant, inquisitive and highly intelligent mermaid we know?). Anybody who walks around a modern human name would shortly know the name of the homeowner. Given all these factors, her not knowing before Episode 213 makes no sense at all.

So why the contrivance?

Of course one possibility is that the writers were too incompetent to remember what they wrote a year ago. But I do not believe this to be the case, especially with how few contradictions there are in the show otherwise and the great attention to detail the writers usually have. Maybe they wanted to score cheap drama? But there already was enough drama with Ryn trying to save her species from extinction (plus the effect this had on Ben and Maddie) and it seems odd to go to such great lengths just for that. Therefore I would argue that the Pownell revelation was (at least partly) included here to make a specific point.

What point would that be? Let us recap what happens in those episodes, especially 214.

After “suddenly discovering” (excuse me while I go grind my teeth in the corner) in Episode 213 that Ben’s last name is Pownell Ryn gets very upset and concerned, culminating in the following exchange in Episode 214:

BEN: "Charles." RYN: "He loved one like me and his love turned bad. It makes him angry. He killed my people. And it starts with love. Like *crying* Like Ben love Ryn."

Ryn is clearly concerned about a repeat of the original Pownall story. And in this episode Ryn (and the audience) is explicitly told by Maddie that Ben is not his ancestor - just as Ryn is not hers either.

MADDIE: "You know my mother, Susan?" RYN: "Yes" MADDIE: "Remember I told you how she was? The pain she caused me?" RYN: "Yes. She was weak and sad." Maddie: "Am I like her?" RYN: "No. You are strong." MADDIE: "Just because your family thinks or acts a certain way doesn't mean you have to repeat that. Ben's ashamed of what his family did. And many in your colony don't trust humans. They want to fight them. But you came on land, you trusted us, fell in love with us." RYN: "Love can be good or bad." MADDIE: "Yeah. But I trust Ben. I trust you. I trust that our love is good."

(Take ALL the Applause Maddie, you earned it.)

Ryn accepts Maddie's argument. The speed at which she does so as well as her obvious concern for Ben when he disappears during the episode seems to indicate that she was more conflicted about her own feelings than anything else - like Ben himself in that episode one might say. When Ben finally reappears, Ryn is visibly relieved at the sight of him and the following exchange happens:

RYN: "You are okay?" BEN: "No. Not okay." RYN: "Angry with me?" BEN: "Confused. About myself." RYN: "Ben. I know you would not hurt me. I know you are different from your family. Those who kill. BEN: "I want to believe that." RYN: "I believe. Our love is good." BEN: "You trust me?" RYN: "I don't want you to feel any more pain."

The relationship between her and Ben survives the stress test and trust seems to be fully restored through Ben’s following actions in Episode 215 (some of which have already been mentioned before).

The relationship seems to have been fully repaired by the end of 215 but if there was any lingering distrust I think Episode 216 would have dispelled that as Ryn is clearly willing to move forward with the relationsip at the end of Episode 216. Letting Ian drown might have been taken by Ryn as a display of trust, especially as she knows that it took a toll on Ben.

This of course is a parallel to another Season 1 episode. In Episode 106 “Showdown” Ben steps in to prevent Ryn from killing another antagonist that was a threat to her (Aldon Decker). Her reaction to Ben refusing to let a human die to keep her safe is one of anger and feeling betrayed.

RYN: "Why you help the bad man?” [Ben refuses to let Ryn kill Decker by placing himself between them] RYN: You choose him. You should choose me."

In Episode 216, Ben does so. He clearly chooses Ryn and her safety over the life of a fellow human.

Even without that choice it was in my opinion already clear from the looks they share at the end of Episode 215 that they will move forward with each other.

(Protip to a happy life: find yourself a relationship where the persons involved in said relationship can still look at each other like that even after they just finished putting each other through hell for several days).

Due to all the factors involved in Episodes 213-216 (Ryn unilaterally deciding for much of the storyline and expecting the others to go along without giving them a say, the whole fertility crisis amongst the Sirens and of course the Pownall “revelation”) this probably was the worst stress the relationship could ever be under at that point.

I therefore posit that if the relationship between Ben and Ryn would be “Charles Pownell 2.0″, this would have been a fracture point instead of a successful stress test.

And the relationship between Ben and Ryn surviving is of course in no small part due to the largest stabilizing element in the relationship, the one element that was missing from the story of Charles and his Siren.

D) The third element

Imagine how different the story of Charles and his mermaid might have happened had they lived with the Haida - people who knew how to deal with human-siren relationships, how to help hybrids and who were most likely used to that kind of relationship happening.

The present-day relationship the show is depicting has such a large stabilizing element to it. I am talking of course about the one person I have so far criminally neglected in favour of focusing on Ben and Ryn (because they are the parallels to charles and their mermaid and also because this allowed me to give this post a better structure).

Maddie might not be Haida biologically, but she is a Haida in the cultural sense of the word. She was raised by a Haida man and one of the first stories she tells Ryn to calm her down in Episode 102 “The Lure” is a Haida story. Now of course Maddie is not the solution to all the problems the trio faces. She does not have any Haida knowledge on how to deal with hybrids or Sirens.

However, she is by far the largest stabilizing element in the relationship as evidenced by episode 214 and the episodes before. Whenever Ryn and Ben are acting out of character or have communication issues (either between them, others or with Maddie), Maddie appears as the mediator that manages to get through to the other two and makes them see reason. Even when she initially fails (as with Ben in 110 and with her first discussion with Ryn in 214) she still manages to have enough of an impact on them to get them to reconsider their actions, change their behaviour and attempt to fix the situation.

Her second long dialogue between her and Ryn Episode 214 (which is quoted in the segment C of this post) is the best example of Maddie’s exceptional communication skills. It probably is one of my top 5 Maddie scenes of the show and highlights just how integral Maddie is for the story of the trio. The way Maddie (without recriminations) manages to make Ryn understand that she got the wrong impression of Ben, the way she focuses the communication on the love that is the basis of the trio relationship is unbelievably on point.

Or to put it more bluntly: The story of Siren is not the story of Ben and Ryn alone. It is the story of Ben, Ryn and Maddie. It is a story about the unique love and trust that develops between the three.

And this is why I firmly believe that we are not seeing a repeat o the CharlesPownell story here. Instead, what we are seeing is how the more enlghtened and more evolved characters of Ryn and Ben and Maddie make different choices than their ancestors. In short, just because History might look similar, it does not - and will not - repeat itself in this case.

Does that mean there will be no challenges to the relationship in the future? Of course not for otherwise there would be a lot less in the show. We already see the groundwork for multiple future stress tests of the relationship being laid (Ted having footage of Ryn underwater, the Sirens attacking Ted in the water when Elaine had the boating accident, the reaction by some sirens like Cami to the relationship, Ben letting Ian drown, him and Ryn keeping this from Maddie etc.)

But there is one certainty the show tells us over and over again, even chosing it as the end screen for season 2.

They are love.

And on that note, we shall end the analysis of the parallels between our throuple and the Pownall Massacre. Thank you for reading and for sticking with this rather long post until the end. I shall endeavour to make the next post a little shorter, I promise. Alternative interpretations, additional info or critique are always welcome.

[Final sidenote: Anybody wishing for the trio to become a duo (whether it be Ben/Ryn, Maddie/Ryn or Ben/Maddie) is asking for the show to be a lot poorer in terms of character interaction, to be less inclusive and to have fewer opportunities for future storylines.

Could the story work with just Ryn and Maddie or just Ryn and Ben? Yes, the love between each of them might be strong enough to survive without the third. But such a story would not be Siren, it would be another star-crossed-lovers story that has been done countless times before.

And this is why it was immediately clear that Episode 216 was a giant fake-out as soon as Maddie was fatally wounded in it.]

#siren freeform #Pownall Massacre #polymarine #analysis #long post #i swear the next one will be shorter #Ben #Ryn #Maddie #siren #freeform siren

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elizabethrobertajones · 5 years

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14x08 watching notes

This episode is the Worst I had to lie to my mum when I came downstairs trembling and tear-stained to get a cup of tea to recover, and play it all off as cold symptoms, and now I feel complicit in some sort of deceit with the episode and like Meredith broke the fourth wall through sheer pain.

Good morning, I slept in until seven after they started digging up the road outside at 9pm at night, so I still kinda have a lingering headache from that, but I'm pretty sure Meredith is about to make good on the Dean n Jack murder pact or something else of that level of awfulness so... *deep breath*

YAY it is Lily!! I mean it was pretty obvious from the costuming because wow she's a distinct person but idk maybe some people thought it was her mom?

Anyway getting a recap just of how terribly Jack is doing and then also a reminder of Lily Sunder is just.. Good recap. *kisses fingers*

(*curls up in agony*)

In all the drama I never noticed Rowena being among those who yelled "Jack!" when he went down and to be honest she knew him five minutes and I'm crediting all that panic in her voice to his absolutely ridiculous powers of being the most adoptable creature in the cosmos. You take one look at him and you want to make sure his shoelaces are tied properly and he has a glass of milk.

Anyway he totally caught Rowena off her guard and made her express an Emotion(TM) that was not spite and a good chunk of that is new and improved Rowena of the last year or so, but also just... She bonded HARD :P

Ironically I left the spoon in my coffee in my haste to get up here and start watching so now I will drink it like that and possibly exit the episode also wearing an eye patch

I watched a second and tucked the largest, most comforting stuffed toy this family owns under my arm. Yes, not my personal stash of friends, the family heirloom squishy guy who has been with us through all the worst stuff D:

The framing is Sam sitting at Jack's bedside, Dad no.1 as season 13 firmly established for us, and the dad with the closest traditional relationship of father/son to Jack. Then Cas hovers nearby, struggling to be as close but still Dad no.2 with the ongoing and uncomplicated connection to Jack in the sense that both just sort of accept they're now father and son without any debate or internal wrangling, and that's always been Jack's in with the family and the way he inadvertently got Cas to vouch for him from beyond the grave when he said Castiel was his father and Sam immediately just flipped to Team Jack, not, of course, that he'd not been giving him a huge chance and trying to reach out to him already, but that was his "oh shit this is now my son because Cas is dead" moment.

Finally, Dean fills the foreground, face in shadow, the conflicted Dad no.3 who can't even face his dying son, taking it personally because this is literally the fourth smol child he's taken under his wing who he then lost, from Sam, Ben, Emma, a truly tragic collection of lost children. He resisted adopting Jack because he couldn't be a parent again, not after what Sam put him through as a parent, and yet Jack, the most adoptable boy in the cosmos, eventually wormed his way under Dean's skin too, and by the end of season 13 Dean was acting fatherly towards him and by this season Dean's been opening up the doors and letting Jack be his son. And. Whoops. As SOON as you took him on a hunt for one on one father son bonding time, look what happened.

And so Dean will lurk in the foreground, not looking at Jack, peering moodily into some dark empty box that metaphorically is his soul or his remaining ability to cope with losing children or some such nonsense. The pandora's box of parenthood. He's full on dark romantic hero brooding.

OH NO IT IS A RECORD PLAYER NOT A BOX

I need our family to retroactively adopt a larger, squishier friend to hug in this trying time

Having archived every single one of my watching notes ever between last episode and this episode, I'm more than usually pained by Dean's "not meant to be crap" line because he's been resisting it the entire frikkin time, when Sam kept, even long long long before they knew their real destinies, musing if HIS own personal angst was meant to be and Dean was like don't give me that destiny crap. I swear there's lines about this back in season 2 or 3 when Sam is musing on his powers and the grim lot fate had dealt them. This is a callback line to Dean dealing with his own sense of unravelling control and pure panic about what was happening to Sam, back when that was a thing in the very early seasons and he was having to face the kid he raised from a baby amongst all that tragedy now recklessly declaring all sorts of horrific things about not being able to resist his destiny. Oh, also, in season 2, while under a murder pact from John about killing him if he couldn't save him.

Honestly, it's barely a relationship worth mentioning if you don't have a murder pact going with Dean. Ben is literally the only one of all 4 children AND CLAIRE who hasn't had one with Dean.

If this episode involves Dean bringing any of his records in to play for Jack I'm gonna go out in my pyjamas and take a long walk to the sea and then keep walking once I reach it

Dean you did not walk nearly far enough for Jack to not hear you thump the wall outside his room

PS: totally figured the promo scene was an early emotional beat between Dean and Cas which utterly delights me because the earlier that came in the episode the better as it meant less and less chance it was about anything other than Dean and Cas having an intense relationship over this whole thing.

Jack is the absolute worst about dying. He's this saintly angelic little boy from like, no later than 1900s literature, who exists only to bravely suffer and love with his whole heart. He's snatched out of an era when kids needed morality tales about how to die politely of consumption with the least amount of fuss for their parents and 300 siblings.

How dare you fucking die selflessly. Humanity is at its Bithc This Isn't Fair stage. Throw a fit. Go walk into the sea out of protest.

Okay you're in Kansas I understand how that is an unrelastic option and I grew up spoiled by the immediate location of the sea should I ever need to walk into it.

This show has never made me cry before the title card before.

This is the Pippin and Gandalf scene from Return of the King with the whole Into the West thing that they wrote for a sick fan who died before the movie came out and literally Annie Lennox sings what would be Jack's THEME for this scene.

Sam is horrified that Jack didn't even live long enough for a LotR marathon to explain the reference that's making him bawl.

I LOVE that this scene with Dean n Cas is just about Dean being a wuss about watching his son die because that's so much worse than Jack having asked for a mercy kill or anything. And this all before the title card. Cas tearing Dean a new one about going in and watching your son die smiling beautifully like a little cherub who can't wait to find out what happens next.

Jack's gonna be dead before the title card, isn't he?

Oof.

Hey, Dean, one more reason to hate yourself :) :) :)

Also robbed Cas of watching him go.

But I think tbh they could have done this if Dean wasn't being a coward about watching Jack die that they would leave Sam to sit at this side in the last moment.

Ugh, my eyes are leaking too much to type. What the hell is all this wet stuff coming out of them.

I've never seen a TFW shot where Sam was the shortest but he is slumped over like someone cut all his strings.

"Your brother's in pain" AND WE'RE NOT? YOU'RE NOT? CAS ISN'T?

Dean stopping Cas going after Sam with just a catch of his shoulder... Ugh. The two of them are still connected through all this in a way where Cas and Dean are connected whether Dean's in the most obvious pain or Sam is.

Cas, pls be selfish and in the most obvious pain at some point this episode.

Oh please don't make me watch Dean telling his mom that Jack died

please

I beg you

They put a photo of Kelly next to Jack's bed D: Or has he always had that?

That's not even the photo that Cas had pinned to his board in 12x10 and yes I went and checked, I'm leaking tears too much to watch because Cas is standing over him and this is going to be the worst while Dean's answerphone message lays over the top.

I'm so not here to watch TFW mourn their son.

They had him for like a WEEK this SUCKS.

ALso I said "please don't make me watch" so they cut away to Cas mourning silently while Dean talks to Mary's answerphone because Meredith is an evil fairy who whimsically takes your wishes and twists them into even worse options.

*takes my glasses off and throws them aside angrily when Sam emerges carrying a duffel over his shoulder and wearing the fucking orange jacket he first met Jack in*

God, I don't even wear them for focus, just lack of headaches. Why was I bothering.

7x10 and this episode are probably going to be unholy companions in this show's canon

"She's come down with acute Tear Duct Blockage. The only option is head amputation or we make her cry, NOW" "Don't worry, I have just the thing."

Dean this answerphone message huuuurts

Also explains the Buckleming issue of not calling Mary, to just say, yeah, it escalated, rapidly.

Your brother is storming off and Cas is broken.

If I have to see Cas see a set of PB&J crusts and a glass of milk identical to what Dean saw in 9x10 I'm - well, I'm still here instead of walking off into the sea so my threats are starting to look a bit performative. BUT I'M THINKING IT.

Cas watches Sam go, while Dean is being dwarfed by the bunker and obfuscated by its maze of corridors.

*presses my hands over my eyeballs* STOP. STOP IT. GOD. You're not even sobbing or anything you're just lEAKING. This is so annoying! I'm gonna dehydrate and they'll find a shrivelled skellington here and I'll go with just a few quiet sniffs and a dumb smile on my face like fucking Jack did.

Now I'm just distraught about the first time ever in canon we see Cas drive, it's in his dumb blue car and Dean's broken and not up for driving even if Sam presumably hadn't stolen the car for his errand/driving until he finds the sea and walking off into it mission. All my myriad fantasies about Cas behind the wheel of the impala and Dean grinning at him like yeah that's my baby (which one is he talking about?), and nope we're getting Cas's little partymobile and Dean's mute expression of grief.

NEVER MIND THEY SHOWED ME SAM CURLED UP ON THE GROUND USING THE IMPALA AS A BELOVED FAMILY HEIRLOOM TO HUG AND I SOBBED OUT LOUD FUCK YOU MEREDITH FUCK YOU

I need the tissues why were they not here in preparation for this episode

I need to avoid my mum all day on the ground of spoilers because my face is a walking spoiler

"TELL ME YOU DIDN'T MAKE A DEAL" "wha- no, I'm trying to make a pyre"

Making a pyre doesn't usually involve curling up on the floor.

Cas is getting an accidental glimpse of 13x01's emotional landscape, not that anyone will tell him this was what it was like for Dean, that we now have Sam in the spot of. We're getting some mirror image missing moments, like we just saw Dean get the axe out but did see him begging God... in this one we see Sam go take it out on a tree.

Incidentally I re-read all of Terrible Coffee AU two days ago for Reasons and the scene where Sam is whaling on a tree while screaming into the sky is pretty much this. Which is fucking hilarious that 2 years ago I decided Sam taking out his feelings on the local trees was a Thing when he was depressed.

(I wrote that scene the day Eileen was murdered on the show and honestly at the time he was mostly just angry on canon!Sam's behalf and I figured I'd come up with plot reasons later.)

Oh, they weren't driving the party!mobile, they were driving something else. I'm not even gonna ask where they get these vehicles

Yeah I'm harping on Dabb vs cars because Cas is talking about Jack's story ending like this and certainty of death for angels and this is just... the worst.

the story line - Cas deciding how their stories go. Dean resisting the how it's supposed to be of Jack's death. TFW want to take the narrative into their own hands. We KNOW in this world deaths are stored in notebooks, potential ways to pass that you skate past until one claims you. They're free to write their own stories but the ending is always pre-written for them... It's just a matter of which one. But Cas especially... Jack was supposed to bring paradise, and maybe the emotional landscape between season 12 and 14 is a gulf of difference in their openness and bonds, largely facilitated by Jack's presence in the narrative and relentless open love for everyone who was nice to him and even those who weren't in Dean's case. He breezed through their lives, manic pixie dream girl'd them to emotional health, and mayfly'd out. But that's THEIR stories. That's not JACK's story. That's not the epic destiny something as cosmically powerful as him was due, and the potential he was shown to have... It abruptly gets into the territory of Dany having her whole Stallion That Mounts the World prophecy for the son she lost... I've not watched the TV show since it diverged so wildly I couldn't hack it any more, but the books with everyone wondering if, like, Jon Snow was this guy instead, etc, picking this that and the other guy... what if Dany's lost child WAS the only one it applied to and the prophecy just fizzled out? ASoIaF looms over Jack's narrative... He's literally been framed against an Iron Throne in the past, and his character arc for parts of season 13 was a sort of anti-Joffrey in many ways. And then in death, GRRM's unromantic look at fairytales and heroic narratives comes for him too, that maybe it doesn't always happen like the stories say...

... but of course, he also has LotR coding, and in THAT regard, Sam Gamgee has his good old speech about the heroes in the stories and how we relate to them and are inspired by them and become them. The stories that matter. And Jack's was supposed to be one of those. In a way, their lives have been so epic that Jack mostly having a personal impact rather than a cosmic one seems wrong to them. That he didn't become the great hero of his own story, but was a tragic hero who ran a dramatic but personal arc and burned out because his asshole father killed him and his asshole uncle presumably finished him off with an experiment in grace transfusion. At least if my dashboard is to be believed :P It's inconcievable to TFW, the "making it up as we go" people who tore up the script and threw away the pages, that they can't just make this happen or that Jack didn't serve some great purpose. Even men as weary of Destiny as they are, struggle. Just because that was their lives, so how could the son of all three of them not follow in all his fathers' footsteps?

"Jack being taken before his time... Being taken before *me*" Cas shut the fuck up.

But that is the speech from Theoden, and once again Sam is Gandalf, which is fucking hilarious that Sam's been Gandalf TWICE this episode.

Ever it's grown on the tombs of my forebears...

you have four bears???

God dammit that joke didn't stop me crying as they go knock their glasses together and hold Jack's lil 3 dads wake

3 Dads Wake is a great name for a whiskey

God, Cas is drinking.

CAS.

They need to give him like one bottle to every finger of whiskey they drink but dammit if they don't get Cas loaded.

Letting them talk privately about how aweomse Jack was and not letting us hear it is a crime

Listen you don't even know me if you didn't think as soon as the nougat appeared on screen I didn't hit pause and sob for a whole minute with my hands over my face

Officially worse than bobby and the goddamn licorice conversation

Cas laughing with caramel hanging out of his mouth is the worst thing the sho whas ever done and I'm suing for emotional damage

Imagine being one of the bitter stans who hates one or more of TFW or Jack right now watching this scene. God, are you even human. They're eating Jack's secret nougat stash they all pretended they didn't know he had.

I can't believe I'm now thinking that Lily showing up will probably be a lighthearted way to bring up the mood of the episode.

Cas is offficially wobbly! We have Cas tipsyness!!

Sam tapping out first. Oh no. Don't leave. Don't.

Fuck you Sam Winchester how dare you canonically be the most lightweight of TFW consistently for the entire show and need to go crash off the side of your bed and sleep on the floor while Dean n Cas are still drinking together.

Did Dean seriously outdrink Cas.

Well that's... something.

I am gonna cling to that like a rock in the churning sea I have walked out into.

Also I managed to calm myself down with walking around my room taking deep breaths so I could go downstairs pretending not to be a wreck, so I could get tea, and my mum made me finish the sudoku for her. I don't have the heart to show her this episode. She loves Jack more than anyone in this god damn fandom and maybe more than Cas does. Maybe I'll lie to her and say the show ended last episode and Jack was fine hahahahaaaa

OH FUCK I hit play and there was a single line of dialogue for the whole wake. Dean drunkenly slurring to Cas, I think, you know we did everything we could, right?

I'm...

*walks further out into the ocean*

"Here's to you Jack, wherever you are" I am not okay.

Oh fork you Meredith we did not need to see the boy in Heaven eating burgers.

Oh fork you Meredith we did not need to see the boy in Heaven eating burgers while on a case with all of his dads.

OH SON OF A BENCH THIS IS THE DODGE CITY CASE AKA 13x06 MEREDITH YOU DINK.

Oh dear, Heaven is broken. Who was the ashhole who was saying that Jack should die so that he can go to Heaven so he's well-placed to help deal with all this nonsense.

LOL Jack would be the sort of person who goes to Heaven and doesn't need more than a second of prompting to be like oh wait I am dead and in Heaven, and just, like... Go open the door. Just pop his head out like cooee I wanna hang with my dads anyone here to replace the bulb in the sun so I can carry on hanging out here for eternity?

Like, seriously, I'm dead, this is when I am supposed to catch a break.

Let The Boy Say Fork.

Listen, secondary to his power to be adopted by everyone on sight, Jack is uncanny also with just walking into trouble.

And to try and be clam for a moment, this is Jack getting pulled back into the story, but not just by unfortunate happenstance, because he was the one with the sharpness, the cosmic awareness even on this level that Heaven just doesn't quiiiiite work for him in the way it's supposed to even if say it was at full power, that he is the one who voluntarily not just understands instantly that something is wrong, but then is fully snapped back to his old self, and chooses to open the door, and that is the moment of choosing to continue his story, at least for now.

It's like how the last time we saw Bobby chronologically was in Inside Man and Cas and Sam woke him from his repose and got the fighting spirit back into him enough to open his own door and rejoin the story for one last hurrah... And it was a choice there too, a moment of once more telling the natural order to screw itself, Bobby could step outside the proscribed ending of his narrative one last time.

Unless Jack finds him and is adopted on sight today.

Sam looks way too healthy.

Invigorated by having a Plan

Lils. Finally getting to see the Bunker filled with all her stolen research notes.

And no that wasn't canon before, but boy am I hoping she recognises her research amongst all the bunker's angel lore.

Men stealing fuckin everything

"We've never looked through Kevin's angel tablet translations"

HAVEN'T WE?

WE HAVEN'T

THEY HAVE BEEN THERE

FIVE

FUCKING

YEARS

And every forking time something comes up where they might be useful I say, HEY WHAT ABOUT KEVIN'S ANGEL TABLET TRANSLATIONS?

and the show says

hey so we don't have the angel tablet but we do have the demon tablet

and I'm like I'm sure that won't have any dumb side effects that could be avoided by having the angel tablet translation just on hand in your archive

did Meredith hear me screeching

because I screeched very very loud after 13x14

13x13 sorry

that was Bucklemming handing her the wrong fucking tablet

this is bitter vindication but feels even better than her and Bobo remembering the grace extracting needle in 12x19

Glynn is a fucking gift.

On the other hand this episode now is pulling on 9x06 and 12x10 at once and that makes me feel woozy

I can't deal with a Glockeybo combo

Also waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah Kevin's handwriting. I can't deal with that AND Bobby memories AND FUCKING NOUGAT DEATH

Which I mean I do feel instantly better about once he opened the door and let himself back into the story and I stopped crying at once and cheered up and Lily is indeed providing much needed relief, wild as that all sounds.

Lily trying to explain her soul magic to Sam and Dean, rubes who haven't done a single enochian calculation in their lives.

Wait, no, Sam has done one, in ... 12x19 ...

But yeah, a rube and a completely self-taught asshole who knows like one thing about it.

And she's like oh yeah just use his soul and they're like AAH WTF LILY and she's like er this is the most obvious thing in the world what is the problem here

where are my cas reaction shots

Jack wearing an eyepatch for the rest of the show would be adorable and hilarious

"it won't cost much... he'll never miss it" trust me his soul is enormous and boated with sweet nougat love, he can spare it, guys.

Dean being able to say "Jack's dead" one day later, when he couldn't say it about Cas practically until he was BACK

Nice trade. TECHNICALLY nothing dodgy about it at all, at least in the sense that aside from resurrection consent issues from Jack, once he's back the choice is still on him to choose to grow old and die as Lily has done, or even to stop using the magic to sustain himself and die again immediately if he is squicked out by it... Or it all comes from trading on his OWN soul power.

Definitely better than demon deals or having any favours looming over them etc

And with Heaven in the state it's in, honestly sending Lily there might be easier than they think if NO ONE IS LEFT TO RUN IT.

Er, imminent ghostpocalypse issues aside.

We're in ghostpocalypse territory as of a minute ago show time, btw.

Cas has quietly observed all this chatter and we get back to him when he says, "Don't you think Jack should decide for himself" so honestly Cas is right there with me, and I always like when me and Cas are the ones agreeing on a thing in the episode.

Obligatory reminder that Sam is more aware than most about soul stuff

*takes another piece of coal off the pile I was going to send Meredith for ruining christmas*

HEY, ANUBIS.

Don't tell him about what they did to Osiris

Unless that would amuse him

Wait never mind Meredith is literally throwing in amusing snark about 7x04 which I think when Adam Glass disowned that episode (despite how I actually think it's really good and he was too hard on it) he never expected anyone would ever want to throw in amused references about it in canon ever again.

"When God left - sorry, long story - " Lily is one of the few people who seems able to conceptually roll with the nonsense TFW deals in all day.

She should join the squad. Always room for a 100 year old badass with deep enochian lore knowledge.

I'm sorry has Jack crashed Kelly's heaven or is this a rando little girl. I immediately thought she was Kelly in the long shot and they substituted a lil girl for POV when we got closer and actually had to go back and look again and she was the little girl all along.

This also conceptually looks so much like Cas's eternal tuesday afternoon.. A rainy, flower-filled garden.

Roosevelt looks SO much like the doggie in 11x20 aside from anything else

IT IS KELLY

This is horrifying since they never ever got to meet ever until now and I'm suing Meredith

I mean I'm already suing her but I'm just adding this to the list of complaints. My laywers are working overtime on this episode.

FORK!! THEY GOT HER BACK FROM LEGENDS OF TOMORROW FOR A DAY!!!!

Can Kelly and Jack go on a rampage around Heaven to fix things?

Her hair is suspiciously darker from the back which I think is her Legends look from the gifs I've seen

Wait, Bobby had a forking dog called Rumsfeld, and Kelly has Roosevelt.

"Hi mom you're dead"

".......................................................... NOooOoOooooOOoo No no no baby no"

Owwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

Dean resisting the spell and complainging "gotta happen, no other way" is making me feel like the Heaven Drama is going to smack them right before they can get it all done and give them a LOT MORE to worry about than Jack but also give them a roundabout way to see him again and also, of course, mean Lily might be useful for an entirely other purpose while she's here...

Dean right now is rationalising this through the lens of that all their terrible deals have been terrible and that this is just one more step on the Winchester life and death merry-go-round, and of course that Jack is about to get the full family treatment he deserves. But that's the Winchester lens of looking at things that even when deaths are brutal and lives cut unfairly short, there's going to be a way to bring them back if they haven't finished their stories. John finished his, in 2x22 seeing Dean get the revenge he needed to be at peace, but everyone else...

Is it ethically right to put Jack on that merry-go-round when he smiled sweetly and died with as much enthusiasm as he gave pretty much everything in his life?

The table lamps are out in the bunker D: them being dark is so ominous

And Cas shows up like shiiiiiiiiiiiiiit something worse going on guys

They're so casual about just summoning gods into their front room these days

Of course they're doing it in the spot in front of the door with the war room behind in one direction... The opposite end of the library to where they opened the rift.

Sam picks his way through the wet paint but Dean stands right in the centre of this circle for SUMMONING THE GOD WHO DECIDES WHO LIVES AND DIES AND WHERE THEY GO to have this lil chat with Lil?

And now Dean steps out of it and corners her with the obvious question - what's wrong with your magic and why are you risking going to Hell to stop using it entirely?

I'm so sorry you have to look at more dead angels, Cas

I'm also so sorry they were killed by black slime because wow after season 7 that was a laugh and a half for you

... Can you swear in the hallways of Heaven?

DUMA LIVES

(probably "for now" though hopefully longer than that)

Ma'am are you aware you have a Nougat on the loose too

I'd love it if Cas is like hi what's happening also have you seen my son

This actress needs to come back for a 3rd time to follow Dean around in a crisis moment.

OH NO now Cas is coming to the heaven memory and seeing what Jack considered his best memory

YEAH. I knew Naomi would show up, I just didn't know when :D

(She wasn't in the credits as far as I could tell but I already sort of knew they were leaving people off? Or maybe I was thinking lol I bet Amanda Tapping is in this episode and they won't tell us... On the other hand she mAY have been in the credits but I was WEEPING MY EYES OUT so didn't clock her despite my efforts to hold myself together and see who was coming up on screen)

Naomi doesn't have the most dramatic entrance on the show but she sure is racking up points for good entrances one at a time each time she appears. She never just, like... toddles onto screen normally.

"Perhaps the angel side of him knew he was in Heaven" honestly the most tragic thing I was trying not to think about is that he knew the entire time but he was willing to play along and enjoy hanging with his dads for eternity despite that.

Oh man it's another dispute over who owns Jack. Is this kid never going to be allowed to just sit and eat burgers and nougat? (Hopefully not at the same time)

Also based on last episode where it seemed like the Empty was awakening but had Lucifer's eyes and we were all NOOO fork that!! is there some more complicated forked up aspect to what's going on or is it just itself and awake and coming for Jack?

I love how Naomi just casually knows how many people are in Heaven

"What's one nephilim boy against all that?" "But he's MY nephilim boy!!"

OH NO NAOMI

NOT LIKE THIIIIIS

We better get an answer on her state by the end of the episode because she's my fave villain bar Metatron on the entire show and devouring her in shadow is just... yikes.

"give it a sec" *POOF* Anubis is prompt, okay.

He probably honestly is somewhat slighted that they're 14 years into their career and he hasn't clapped eyes on them.

"Yeah, we've died." "A LOT."

I honestly, at this point, do not blame them for their lax attitude towards the permanence of death. They need a lot of counselling they're not getting and until they do they really are going to always be terrible at this.

A brief moment where Anubis is like, am I going to get Flirty Banter with Dean Winchester?? and he looks at him and Dean's eyes are all dead and "my son is dead" and Anubis sighs like welp not today oh well better luck next time, if I survive this...

Getting flirty banter with Dean is a sign of high honour and takes you to some very interesting places.

Into Dean if you stick with it like Crowley did

And Lily's been standing there this whole time like wow these boys suck up all the attention in the room and I kinda hate them

Oh I LOVE this abacus. Is this some nerdy ass research that meredith did to know better than most what to expect here? Even I haven't heard this one, though I haven't really revisited Egypt lore after the expected Egyptology phase as a kid...

Anyway the half white half black beads are super interesting in a wider show symbolism way.

Oh deeear, Lily.

Of course that instantly makes you fascinated about what would happen if TFW stuck their hands over it.

What a good line on the show's philosophy about making your own fate - it's not destiny or a choice from above or anything like that. Your individual actions get you sent to Heaven or Hell in the natural course of things and it's weighed in such a way all he can do is use his equipment to read which way you're going... Everything else is down to you. Free Will, write your own story.

Of course, if Lily did some huge sacrifice I bet she could change things.

CAS LAUGHED

ugh this episode should be banned.

If you hug Kelly I'm rioting.

Everyone who ever hugs Cas slaps their hands firmly on Misha's broad shoulders like it's law and digs in and I don't know if it's because Cas has this wonderful presence about him that even when you're around Misha acting him in the moment you get swept up in it, or you just want to hug Misha like that, but Cas hugs look like the most amazing hugs in the universe and everyone just GOES for it.

Also I am typing this nonsense because I literally used up my box of tissues earlier and the next option is stealing a roll of toilet paper. So I will snark and try and ward off the sobbing.

"I'm so sorry. I failed you." Kelly, who has spent about 5 minutes in Jack's presence and understands his nature even beyond her blind faith in him from before but now gets to see the evidence of it: "You didn't. You didn't."

Yes, please can more characters tell Cas that he did a good job even when things don't quite go to plan. Dean's drunken slurring about how they did the best they could, this...

Kelly tells Cas how wonderful Jack is like Cas doesn't know and Cas breaks up.

And you know what this looks like and I'm not going to survive typing this and can already feel my eyeballs filling up with water... 10x20 and Jimmy and Amelia talking about Claire at the end of the episode oh god I hate it take it away from me.

Oh good Cas telling Jack we need you alive to fix Heaven but just in a passive way where you not being dead means the Empty backs the fuck off rather than you having to DO anything

Ooops the Empty is here as Dumas. I suspect she's not surviving this episode but MAYBE Naomi survives.

I am saying with full wishful thinking after seeing her completely consumed by black goo

I do like the concept of "THERE ARE MAJOR STAKES TO RESURRECT THE BOY. BRING HIM BACK THIS INSTANT. LITERALLY SAVE THE UNIVERSE BY BRINGING THE NOUGAT SON BACK TO EARTH." because that makes it so much different from "hey bring me back and maybe accidentally unleash some terrible evil in the process but we'll deal with it later because that's what we do"

"HE'S OUR KID" Sam snaps

I hate it, thanks

For the love of god appeal to her more as a fellow parent.

Dean DIRECTLY EQUATES Jack and May

Hold me

Equating no soul to not being human in front of Sam aka our no soul test case. Owie. Another reminder of just how hard Dean took it in season 6 until he got Sam back, all that skin crawling feeling of being around him...

You know what? Jack reminds me of the sort of example nice ensoulled Sam stuff we saw in 6x12 when Jared was allowed to play over the top sweet and uncomplicted for a few scenes, just to be a total contrast to how he'd been acting thus far in the season. Of course, we saw him for like 3 scenes of Dean smiling in pure relief when Sam did Nice Things before it all got complicated again, and Jack's been a long-time character :P But Sam does have a sweet street that when it emerges in the rare times it can be uncomplicated, is I think the closest equivalent to where Jack's innocent sweetness is drawn from. He's the son of Sam's puppy dog eyes specifically.

But yeah I think Lily just needs to have this resistance and anger about it all to make it so much more of a flip if she were to decide to do the spell, so that it counts as an even gooder good deed to MAYBE flip her chances. By giving her a good work to do.

And hey maybe if she meets Jack for a minute she'll love him and then be changed by the experience and go out and do more good things etc etc.

DUMAS IS SO GOOD AT BEING CREEPY!!

Misha hammed the FORK out of being the Empty and now she has to live up to it and she IS.

CAS don't fight the Empty by trying to stab it, fight the Empty by humming this is the song that never ends.

*makes a disgruntled sad noise about being forced to see Jack laid out on a table in his cute lil PJs with his cute lil socks*

Wait, if Lily does this spell does this mean she's using up the last of her soul to do it and going to the Empty anyway?

ANGRY LIONESS KELLY COMING TO YELL AT THE EMPTY AND GIVE IT A PIECE OF HER MIND

I've just paused after her yelling "STOP" but whatever happens next, she leaped in when Cas was getting kicked around and that's BAD ASS.

Hitting Kelly is like... probably a rage button Jack didn't even know he had so I would like to see how that goes over, but we cut to them trying to resurrect him.

I forking love how this is 2 seasons in a row where the message seems to be that you live to spite nihilism and the bitter end of death.

D'aw even though Sam said they'd pray it was Dean who used prayer to reach out to Cas in Heaven to give him that heads up. Like, totally practical rather than the sort of prayer he's made before to Cas that was all emotional appeal, but, let's save our son, huh?

CAS NO DON'T SAY THAT

The Empty might also really want to think about that because it knows you forking suck to keep around so trading yourself for Jack is like... really? do I really want that? :P

"Not for years. EONS, MAYBE." Cas, bud. I love you. I want you to stay alive that long. Do you really forking think that with the life you lead you have eons left? I mean it's really heartening to hear you talk about yourself this way. But I have to ask.

The Empty telling Cas that it'll come for him when he finally lets himself be happy is forking hilarious. Cas hasn't been happy once in his life and he doesn't plan to start now. Eons, maybe.

Just like that, he's unlocked eternal, grumpy life. Take notes, Lily.

I mean on a practical level this is basically like, yeah, this is why Destiel isn't canon, because as soon as Cas allows himself to be happy, he's ALWAYS known he gets punished for it. In 4x20 he rebelled for Dean and was instantly dragged back by Naomi... This sense of another mission, never belonging, always being on the outside and not getting the emotional resolution he needs, and actively running from it at times or throwing himself in the way of danger to make Dean be happy without him... it's interesting honestly that the Empty is here as Duma and not Naomi as she's been the agent of hoiking him back from happiness enough times in canon... And that fear of losing everything as soon as you're happy? That's what first kept Dean from Jack and then as soon as he really truly fathered Jack, happened to him. Like, that's Team Free Will's entire life story, starting with Jess, to date, here with the Empty making this threat.

Duma survived!!

Cas... really could have just bought a few minutes to do the spell rather than given himself that burden >.>

But he's determined to make a more lasting sacrifice, one that ensures this won't happen again with Jack, that he can always die whenever he wants and go to Heaven and not be bothered here.

Oops Jack's angry now. Now he's seen a dad sacrifice for him, he's suddenly got a case of the Winchester Angsts. Dean in season 2, for starters. Not a good place to be D: Dean in season 2 is proportionately his worst season.

I'm not crying because I think I already died earlier in the episode, but that was... truly awful... to watch Cas tell Jack he's at peace with it and he loves him and everyone loves him and then Kelly butts in like I LOVE YOU TOO and mom him a bit with straightening his jacket and hugging him and... UGH.

Lily has either the start of a heart attack or loses her soul entirely in the background and wanders into a corner to die? Er.

OH HEY WE ALSO MANAGED TO GET THE WORST DEAN HUG SINCE 2x22 WHEN HE GRABS JACK. NEVER SEEN HIM HUG LIKE THAT BEFORE, DON'T WANT TO SEE IT AGAIN THANKS

Nope, she just dieded.

Let's hope she went to heaven and we get a super corny young Lily surprise Alicia Witt return moment at the end since this episode is just throwing everything at it.

It's Anubis' office!!!

Wow, that's a noisy annoying place to work

Still, I LOVE these visualisations of where the cosmic forces of the universe work

I called it super corny but I'm DYING to see Lily's fate change.

"Say hello to your daughter for me" DOn't make me cry about Lily please I beg you I am run dry

OH THANK GOD NAOMI SURVIVED. Hooooooraaaaay!!!!!!! Oh this is a wonderful ending to a perfect episode to not have to deal with her having being consumed and left dead off-screen somewhere.

LOL that slam as he realises what's up and even though she obviously can do what she wants, he's still protectively closing Kelly's door to put a barrier between her and Naomi.

"I'm here to thank you"

Oldest trope in the book, but I love when they look over their shoulder to see if "you" is someone else, and Cas, unflappable Cas, in Naomi's presence, still checks the infinite empty corridor.

*double checks*

"...... you're welcome?"

Wheee unlocked new plot for altrusim!

Ahahaaaahaaaaaaaaa Jack wrapped in a fluffy grey robe. Listen. I am

not

okay.

Jack with his burger and Dean's dead guy robe, spitefully living...

I bet Dean made the burger

WHY did I type that when I knew how likely it was to make my eyes burn.

I did not cry at the last scene of them all at the table so I am going to eat extra cookies at lunch as a reward.

And Jack and Cas sharing a little glance, knowing what Cas did. Father and Son's first dire family secret! :')

And gently roll the camera away to credits to leave them to their happy little scene.

Presumably with a slow fade so you can fumble for some more tissues.

Gyah.

#14x08 #season 14 spoilers #I am angry about how in the last 3 seasons multiple episodes have wandered around like hi I am the new best episode of the series #make up your MIND #remember when Baby felt weird like it was the first in years that had smashed the season 5 barrier of where all the Best Episodes were #and like aside from 6x11 and 7x10 we'd long passed the episodes that were utter stand outs in their field?#and now you have a like 50:50 gamble you're just going to walk into the Best Episode of the Show #it's fucking annoying #my stuff

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jacereviews · 5 years

Text

Review: Umineko no Naku Koro ni

Visual Novel (Sound Novel) (PC) Also know as: Umineko: When They Cry - Question Arcs, When They Cry 3 Consumed in English

Welcome to Rokkenjima. The third entry in the acclaimed When They Cry series, Umineko, brings a fresh new start to the series. New story, new characters, and so on. It both rode on the coattails of, and had to fight it’s way out of the shadow of its predecessor, Higurashi. This presented a massive challenge, but did Umineko succeed? Let’s rock.

PLOT: October 4, 1986. The annual family conference of the Ushiromiya family has come once again. Being an immensely prosperous business family, talks quickly become of money, including the inheritance of the aging family head. The head of the family’s 4 children and their families gather at the family head’s mansion on Rokkenjima island and debates begin. Our protagonist, Battler, and the other grandchildren are spared from these debates and find themselves in front of a portrait in the mansion. This portrait is of the legendary witch Beatrice, who the family head Kinzo claims gave him a fortune of gold which he built his success on. Attached to this portrait is a mysterious epitaph which none of the family have managed to solve. When a typhoon blows in, trapping the family, their servants, and one attending physician on the island, strange events begin to occur. A letter is delivered to the dinner table signed by the “family alchemist” Beatrice. Beatrice’s letter claims that she had a contract with Kinzo, and this contract states that all possessions of the Ushiromiya family go to her unless someone can solve her epitaph. When a series of mysterious deaths begin to happen on the island, the family is forced to take the letter seriously. At this intersection between reality and magic, can the culprit be found, or will it be accepted as the powers of a witch? Umineko is a hard as nails mystery with a lot of detail to it. For those familiar with Higurashi, Umineko does adopt the same format over it’s four episodes. The unique trait of Umineko is its witches, rather than simply solving a murder to catch the murderer, it’s also a battle to prove it isn’t the magic of a witch- which sounds a simpler task than it is. Due to the incredibly plot heavy nature of the VN, I can’t go into much more detail for spoiler reasons. There is a lot going on here, a drastic amount has changed between episodes 1 and 4. Umineko is also incredibly long, and not necessarily for all the right reasons. The pacing isn’t usually very tight, and you occasionally run into bumpy dragged out pieces or retreaded ground, but the high points are definitely worth the lows. Umineko also isn’t content to be just a mystery, in its over 50 hour playtime it delves into comedy, action, romance, tragedy, and so on. Despite some unique diversions however, at the end of the day it goes back to the mystery and battle against the witch. While not conclusive, Umineko has a strong ending that sets up for its sequel, Umineko Chiru.

8/10, a grand mystery unfolds with some bumps here and there.

CHARACTERS: Umineko has a lot of characters. We open the story with 18 characters before adding in any supposed witches.The good news is all of them are very distinct in both appearance and personality. The VN uses its long run time to spend a good amount of time on most of the characters. The human cast ranges from being able to be uniquely described to in depth enough for a full character study. Battler himself is a rather distinct and likeable character, his character also well develops over the course of the VN. The other grandchildren (Battler’s cousins) Jessica, George, and Maria get a good amount of spotlight as we see into their lives. Maria in particular has a lot going on. The servants of similar age to the grandchildren, Shannon and Kanon, were characters I initially disliked but grew to rather like by the end. They both come off as initially simple but have a significant amount more going on. The head of the family Kinzo comes off as more mystery than character, we see little of him but feel the waves of his actions. Kinzo’s children all get a good amount of spotlight. Battler’s parents don’t get much screen time, but the time they get is enough for them to make some powerful impressions. Jessica’s parents I found to be the weakest of the family character-wise, but are still likeable in their own right. George’s parents are both immediately enjoyable and I found them to get more interesting over time. Lastly Maria’s mother Rosa has a lot going on and is quite interesting to dig into over the series. As other characters go, the rest of the servants and doctor Nanjo, they aren’t particularly strong characters but have a significant enough presence and a good amount of likeability. I feel as the series goes on we’ll get to dig more and more into these characters and I have high expectations and a belief they’ll be met. As for “the witch, Beatrice”, we’re left with quite the interesting puzzle.

9/10, there’s a lot of characters, a lot of character, and a lot of intrigue. TFW no Battler bf.

VISUALS: When They Cry visuals will always be an interesting discussion, as there are multiple versions.

The steam version of Umineko comes with the original art (pictured above left) and the Pachinko art (picture below). The Alchemist art can be modded in, however as it isn’t natural to this version I won’t be discussing it.

The backgrounds are the same in both new and old arts, all that changes is the sprites. I ended up going with the original art, though I did look at the Pachinko quite a bit. The original art is very rough, as is the nature with many a doujin games, but has a lot of charm in my opinion. It manages to give every character a unique feel whilst feeling consistent to itself. The original art is also very expressive, with each pose and look containing a lot of emotion. The Pachinko art can clash with itself stylistically, is less expressive, feels like it tries to be way more sexual than is Umineko’s nature (obnoxious boob inflation), and is ultimately incomplete, as some minor characters in minor scenes don’t have pachinko sprites so even in new art mod you will get original art. Umineko art is at best rough, but I quickly found myself growing to like it. As other visual pieces go, I found the stylized photo backgrounds quite enjoyable. They can very easily convey an air of mystery or horror (hence why I liked them so much in Higurashi), however that can be a personal preference thing. As other visuals go (the portrait of the witch, some designs of magic circles, and some unique set pieces) I found them to be quite enjoyable. The transition pieces were also quite nice. However nothing about the visuals felt like a home run or epitome of good visuals. A lot of the designs had some fantastic ideas in them, but ultimately artist ability, time, and budget were limiting factors. A thing I will say about the visual presentation however, is it uses the format of the VN with text colors as inherently meaningful, a minor detail but a positive one.

7/10, When They Cry will always be divisive visually, but I like it.

SOUND: Umineko might have one of my favorite OSTs, it is loaded with killer original compositions. The opening song is one of my all time favorite opening songs, I could almost listen to it on repeat. The soundtrack is loaded with a variety of styles, from very traditional background pieces to mysterious tracks of magic to energetic battle tracks. A lot of my personal favorites are the more electronic-y tracks loaded with energy, pumping you up to solve the truth and deny the witch. However fans of more traditional mood pieces will also be quite satisfied. It’s also good about working different audio queues into different songs to represent songs, there’s a few types of sound that get inherently associated with magic. It also does a thing I like of making multiple renditions of a song, each version being distinct for its own reason. It feels like it’s building on itself, and each version carries the emotional value of the prior song but adding more to it. In other pieces, there’s no voice acting without the Alchemist sprite mod, so I won’t be discussing that. Sound effect wise, I adore Umineko. A lot of the sound effects just feel so right. Ahahaha.wav is one of my all time favorite sound effects, and the bleeding “gloop” rubs me the right way.

9/10, I can fault this only with “not being absolute perfection.” That award goes to Persona 3.

FINAL SCORE: 8/10

In all honesty I was surprised that Umineko meted out at an 8. If I were to include a super-subjective enjoyment category that’d get a 10. Umineko is not perfect, but it’s damn interesting. A small part of my brain keeps telling me to just google the answers because I’m so curious as to how it’ll all come together. I absolutely adore most things about Umineko. I implore more people to give When They Cry a chance, it’s such a fascinating series and is such a good mystery.

#umineko no naku koro ni #umineko #umineko when they cry #when they cry #battler #ushiromiya #witch #beatrice #review #mystery #uu- uu-#battler poopoo eat #seacats #vn #visual novel #sound novel #07th expansion #ryukishi07

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awed-frog · 6 years

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the thing where they say Sam and Dean have nobody else is also to be blamed on the format of the show, because even though Jody belongs to their support system by now, all other friends they ever make appear maybe once a season (Donna) or immediately die/are written off (Benny, Garth). They can't build up a support system when the show still restricts the appearances of side characters so much. And Cas has even less interactions outside of TFW since Hannah's dead and he's kept away from Claire

Yes, I’m not sure where they’re going with all that, to be honest, because at this point - it’d be interesting to solve these issues they’ve had since day one (the fact they’re so isolated, their inability to form lasting romantic relationships and so on) and frame them as long-term character development (and we’ve seen hints of that here and there), but, as you say, the format of the show doesn’t really allow for a full resolution of anything. It seems that what we’re left with is a story where the characters have to work on their own issues in the subtext or between the episodes (for instance, we now know they see Jody a lot more than we see her with them, which is good news but also - well, I’d love to see her more often, and mostly to see them with her, so it’s frustrating that we have to imagine all of those things which happen between episodes, because that’s just something that’ll never make it to the actual screen), and that’s weird, surely? I mean, I understand they have a format and everything, but what that means is that we’re missing a lot of what’s going on and the only way to achieve the characters’ arc is - well - either they do it hurriedly, in a kind of extra-long series finale or something, or they stick to the idea of a blaze of glory ending, in which case this is a tragedy and the whole thing becomes, ‘this is what we wanted - but we’ll never get it’ - and that’s acceptable if well-written, but after everything, I’m really rooting for TFW to have some kind of happy ending.

And I’m likely not the only one, but lately I’ve been getting this Sophie’s World vibe from Supernatural - there’s this impression that the characters are just off living their own life, and who even knows what happens and what they do half the time and you find out years later that they’ve got weird hobbies or stashes of DVDs under their beds, that Dean spent a weekend making Cas a mixtape and Sam, who the hell can say who Sam is when he’s not working. And maybe that’s unfair, because most TV shows are like that, but at the same time - there’s two kind of stories you can tell, right, and if we take crime stuff, you can either go the Criminal Minds way and focus on the murders themselves and the whodunnit and occasionally give us a few details or a narrative mirror about who our detectives are, or you can go the Mindhunter way and make the entire show about the heroes, and not about what they actually do all day - and in that case, well, it’s not a waste of time to know exactly who these people are, what they like to eat and whether or not they’ve got girlfriends and boyfriends - it’s the famous ‘it’s not a detective story, it’s a story about a detective’ (and man, I wish I could quote that without a bitter taste in my mouth, but whatever). And if you think about it, it’s always been clear that Supernatural is not about monsters at all - it’s about Sam and Dean and who they are and what they want and sure, we see those things by watching them kill werewolves, but narratively, that’s not that relevant, right? And all of this to say - it’s not the same. I can live without knowing what Horatio Caine had for breakfast and whether or not Patrick Jane ever had a dog growing up, but when it comes to Dean Winchester - in order to truly appreciate a show that’s built this way, ‘they catch the killer, they save the world - the end’ is not satisfying storytelling, because in this universe, I don’t care about the world - I care about Dean. So those stolen moments matter, and they matter a great deal, and I wish we had more insight in how Sam and Dean work together and why they never bought a goddamn couch and why is it that Dean never cooks when the first thing he said about the Bunker was, ‘hey, it’s got a kitchen’. But the problem is, of course, that as you say true character development clashes with the show’s format (not to mention the whole bisexuality issue), which means we can go ‘till here and no further’, in a sense. And that’s a damn shame.

#ask #spn meta #sam and dean #dean is bi #storytelling #narrative structure #procedural shows

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tumblunni · 7 years

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Bwoop! Cathedral tower defense ideas! Havent really made much damn progress on this game since I havent got a design for the protagonist yet, but at least now I have designs for two of the party members. (Thanks @summon-daze!) So for now lets just have some rambling ideas for potential sidequests you could have with these two!

BRIEF SUMMARY TIME Amity: Protagonist. A gruff and badass wandering priestess whose homeland was destroyed in the war. Now she’s joined another church in a foreign land and is dertermined to defend it against the demons, and never let that tragedy happen again! But she has to win the trust of these strangers first, and teach them how to survive... Florin: First and only party member you begin with at the start, deuterogonist, cute sidekick of sass and pep. He’s a plant type demon who’s haunting Amity for reasons unknown, and refuses to leave! Now she’s stuck trying to get rid of him, while he insists on being annoyingly helpful yet comically lazy at the same time. Also, as an incidental fact, he suffers from narcolepsy. Malachi: Optional party member, and the only other demon in the cast. An adorable little choir boy who doesn’t seem entirely aware that he’s become a demon. It’d be cruel to judge him the same as the others, we need to keep him safe! He’s quiet and cuddly and comically oblivious. What do you mean humans don’t enjoy eating rocks??

THUS, SIDEQUEST IDEAS

* Multiple different attempts to get rid of Florin, which all inevitably fail and end up causing him and Amity to become closer buddies. TFW you try to exorcise a guy and end up frolicking through the fields of friendship~! * Similarly, it could be fun to have some silly plans to trick him into being less lazy. Predictably the answer is just gonna be ‘when you’re nicer to him, he actually wants to put in the effort’, but that doesnt mean we cant have some fun shenanigans in the process! * Amity sneaking around trying to spy on Florin and find him doing something evil. He’s GOT to be here to pull off some ultimate plot, right?? Lol, 90% of their friendship is just Amity being suspicious as heck and Florin rudely persisting in being harmless. * A plot where somehow they actually do get separated, and Amity begins to realise how helpful her lil demon sidekick has actually become, and how much she genuinely appreciates him as a friend. Could possibly be that instead of being gone, Florin is ill with some sort of demon sickness and you need to go on a grand quest to save him? or maybe he’s been kidnapped by a villain who wants to use his powers for nefarious purposes, and accuses you of doing the same thing because why on earth else would you pretend to care about this monster? (And then when you rescue him you can have the grumpy excuse that of course you only did it because he’d be dangerous as anyone else’s sidekick. No affection was involved at all!!) * Mysterious flowers are appearing around the cathedral, and Amity starts to suspect that Florin is setting up some sort of evil demon plan. But she actually discovers that this is a sign of how much he’s genuinely begun caring about the other npcs, he’s been paying attention to their troubles and secretly giving them the flowers he thinks they’d most like, without wanting to take any credit for it. So you get a sassy friendship scene of Amity blackmailing him by threatening to reveal he’s been being nice! Thus florin gains the bonus skill of opening a little flower store. (And blushing himself to death every time anyone says thank you) * A conflict between Amity and Florin, where she accuses him of just being lazy as always, but this time he really was trying! He started off not caring about anyone, and only working when it benefitted him, but now he’s working his butt off and has become really self-concious about the fact he’s not really able to keep up with the rest of the party. And so he ends up talking about his narcolepsy problem with her, and if they have enough friendship points she starts being more considerate and trying to help him out with it. And maybe unlocks a longer quest chain of improving the home base’s medical facilities? * Florin hibernates in winter, everyone has to cope without him and realises how much they miss him. Like a repeat of the earlier quest where he’s kidnapped, but this is a new perspective on how Amity feels about it now they’ve been close friends for a while. And also how everyone else around the church feels. Maybe a plot of them all deciding to write down letters for him to read when he wakes up? And maybe tensions getting high when some sort of disaster happens, and Amity is like ‘oh god i dont want to have to tell Florin that this place fell apart without him’. (With it being up to player choice whether you include the bad points in the letter, or try and hide it from him.) * A potential bad ending for Florin, and how things continue afterwards. I think he’d be one of the characters who (initially at least) doesnt die when defeated in battle. If he’s taken out, he’s just near-mortally wounded and recovers after a very tense period where he’s in a coma. And then the plot explores everyone’s feelings at almost losing him, and his own feelings of uselessness now he’s too injured to go back to the fight. And because malachi can become like an adoptive brother to florin, they can still have a happy ending together even if florin has been removed from the party like this. He retires to take care of his lil bro full time, and he doesnt worry about feeling useless when he knows he’s got someone who thinks the world of him. And Malachi can inherit some of his skills and equipment since now Florin can devote all his time to tutoring him into taking up his former place in the army. * Oh, and of course Malachi’s recruitment sidequest! You’d first encounter him as a feral rock beast in a dungeon somewhere, and there’s a conflict between Amity and Florin because she believes this thing needs to be destroyed and he insists that they can redeem it. He can sense it’s a demon, and its got to be corrupted if it’s going wild like this! But Amity believes that demons are inherantly evil, so this one’s behaviour isnt unusual like florin thinks. She’s aknowledged that florin isn’t evil, but she still feels he’s an exception amoung demons! But eventually she’s convinced to take a chance on florin’s convictions, because its rare for him to be so un-lazy about something, and to defend something even at the risk of his own life. So they manage to find a way to purify the monster, and find out that it was a very young child, underneath all that scary rock armour. So if they’d slain it without a second thought, they would have committed an unforgiveable sin... * Malachi’s next sidequest would be convincing him to leave the ruins and come home with them, while exploring the dungeon to try and find out what exactly happened to turn such a sweet kid into a demon. (Not to mention the fact he was absolutely crazed with corruption!) I don’t wanna spoil the ending to this, but I have a lot of Sad Ideas for this charrie, hee hee~ * A potential plotline that once Malachi joins the church base, he could have trouble making friends with the normal human children. I Had an idea of a bully character who’d get redeemed and ultimately become accepted as his friend after a big ol sad apology scene, and then they become this misfit buddies duo. And the ostracization from the other kids doesnt hurt as much when he’s got this tough former-bully lady defending him against her former-comrades. * And he also grows closer to Florin as theyre the only two demons, and florin was the one who saved him. Plus they both enjoy sitting buried in the flowerbed and eating dirt! I think the relationship wouldnt start off this close though, Mal would initially be scared of Florin. Since he doesnt know that he himself is a demon, he just thinks florin is the only demon and he has much the same fears as Amity once had when the story began. But it could be more comical, because its inherantly silly when you have this kid with giant horns yelling ‘ITS A DEMON’ and hiding behind the couch XD And eventually he does grow to love florin like a parent, but he’s still comically oblivious. He just decides that florin ISNT a demon, of course! He’s just... a little more green than other people!! * Possibly a plot of everyone holding a funeral for malachi to cheer him up, since he never had one when he died as a human. But since malachi doesnt comprehend the whole concept, he’s just like ‘when normal people get put in the ground they sleep forever, why did i wake up? is it because i never got tucked in like they did?’ And then it could be funny like bender’s fake funeral in futurama, but also a bit bittersweet and sad and heartwarming. * Sudden panic! Malachi accidentally calls florin ‘dad’, and florin FREAKS THE FRICKLE FRACK OUT! ‘I’m not a good influence, amity! aaaaa!!!’ Worries too much about not being good enough, maybe comically tries to change his personality into a generic sitcom father and malachi is like ‘wtf’ * Possibly a plot about malachi and florin bonding as demons, and figuring out what being demons even necessarily means. I’m thinking florin might be a bit scared by seeing how malachi can sometimes hulk out and run on pure instinct. Its such a huge contrast that this sweet kind child can have such bloodthirstiness inside him, he doesnt understand how malachi seems to enjoy fighting. And he doesnt understand how malachi can think he can control it! He gets a bit scared that this means the fighting side of him is the real side, and the childlike side is just a front, just a lie like everyone says demons manipulate everyone. And does this mean that florin himself is the same? Is he just deluding himself that he can be good? So the resolution is florin being able to accept that both parts of malachi are still malachi, and its completely possible to have both sides without being evil. It is indeed in the nature of demons to fight, but they dont enjoy destruction or evil, its not like holding back some horrible monster who’ll murder everyone you love. And florin has always been holding back this side, he’s been afraid of using his powers too much, worrying he only exists to kill. Malachi helps him accept that his powers have equal potential to heal and to harm, and that it IS possible to control them, that the choice between good and evil is indeed his own choice. At the same time this helps malachi accept that he is indeed a demon, and cope with remembering his horrifying backstory. Knowing that he isnt alone, and that demons dont have to be evil, he’ll be able to be okay, and he has this other demon friend who can help him though it. And they’re able to work out the whole Fearsome Demonic Instincts by doing some playfight sparring together like total dorks XD If you’re worried about your sense of control, then never using your powers wont help! Gotta actually practise! * Possibly florin officially adopting malachi as his son, and its possible for the player to expand out and make more bases once you’ve fully upgraded the cathedral. And maybe florin could become the boss of this new place, and turn it into like an orphange for malachi and others? it could be a big sign of his character development that he’s come this far! Also it could just be hilarious to imagine how baffled travellers would be. “Aaaa there’s a demon and he’s... looking after small children??” “We must rescue the small children from that horrible demon and take them to the orphanage!” *knocks on the door and its florin again*

#cathedral tower defense

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