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chirpsythismorning · 11 months

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Realistically do you still think Milvn will breakup in the first couple of episodes? I feel like the fabdom is focusing on fanon so much at this point that they are missing canon and actual narrative on the show. It seems very unlikely to me for Mvln's breakup taking place in first couple of episodes. But the fandom are still stuk in their previous thoughts and cannot seem to think differently at all and never even consider the possibility of mlvn breakup happening way later on in the next season. Most of the Byler's analyses about El's character has turned out to be wrong. El doesnt seem to be done with the relationship. She still loves Mike (or thinks she does) and she drew strength from his monologue. A mildvn breakup right into S5 does not make any sense canon narrative wise. We can argue that the show was different that the script, while i agree with it to an extent i reaaaly think people are trying way too hard to discredit the writers intention and the script here. El was not angry at Mike. She was sad about Max and Hawkins' situation. 🤷‍♀️

What i am saying is that i feel like most Bylers are misinterpetating what is happening with the narrative here and it leads to unrealistic and baseless expectations for the characters and S5 regarding how Mlvn vs Byler will take place. And i am greatly sorry but i dont think Mike lied in his monologue, like at all. And the situation reads like "Mike loved el romantically but they wont be together bc of incompitability". El is not even still over Mike. And people expect her to be like "i breakup with you bye" right into S5. Mike still has underlining feelings for El. Like... all i am saying is people shouldnt base their expectations on headcanons and fanon misinterpretations.

Lastly, while i really would like a more detailed gay coming of age and sexuality storyline for Mike, realistically going by canon i dont think its happening. Sorry. They will mostly focus on Will's sexuality and coming of age it seems like and Mike will mostly have a "realization" arc where he realizes El and him are not fit for each other and then he decides to be with Will.

Based on the show’s trend of doing break-ups (or at least implied break-ups) early in the season, yes I do think it’s likely that the audience will at least have the impression that Mike and El are broken up early in s5.

That’s based on a technique they have done repeatedly, whereas the assumption that they will break-up midseason is based on what exactly? The Duffers saying that s5 is jumping right back into the action?

I mean, if anything shouldn’t that be an indication that the arcs heavily built up in s4, that were left deliberately unresolved, are going to be dealt with in a timely manner, as opposed to being put on pause and then squished into mid s5, when we’re arguably going to have even more stuff the characters are dealing with? Like, them literally fighting for their lives?

When it comes to Mike’s monologue giving El strength according to the script, this is actually really easy to explain and so I will!

For starters, they did not disclose El's feelings about the monologue in the Piggyback script, bc they released it knowing it would go public, at least two years before s5 is set to actually come out. They would not just throw in a huge spoiler like that, seeing as it was intentionally left unaddressed in s4, with the intention to be addressed in early s5. That’s the whole thing about s4 kind of leaving things so shaky and uncertain, with s5 jumping us right back into that, bc there was just so much set up for all of those dominos to inevitably fall.

To understand Mike’s monologue and its impact on El better, it might help to recall the memory of El’s birth and how her mother’s love is what gave her the strength to defeat Henry the first time in 79’.

I mean look at the lighting of that scene, it’s probably the brightest fucking lighting we’ve ever seen in the entire series (you know what light means... pure, genuine, true love…). And it’s because strength from love is much more powerful than strength from anger. That’s something she is literally throwing back in Henry’s face that day of the massacre, going against what he told her to do and instead using the memory of her mother’s love to beat him.

During Mike’s monologue, we see El using anger to give her strength to finally break free and stop Vecna, all orchestrated by events that Henry has had a role in impacting, meaning he was actively going up against her this second time, all while knowing that in order to actually beat her, she needed to be vulnerable and unable to use love as strength, with her only option being anger. And so what we see is anger about Mike still woefully misunderstanding what she had tried to explain to him earlier in the season, along with watching her best friend be murdered in front of her. And look at the lighting of that scene, she's literally seeing red. The atmosphere is eerily uncertain at best.

This monologue was SOOO necessary for the narrative in order to keep the public away from considering Byler. Because they already don’t want to consider it as it is, and that monologue gives them an excuse not to. You saw how they reacted to the piggyback script? Like it was this huge sigh of relief for them? Meaning that they were having doubts…

The thing is, I have considered the possibility of a mid-season Milkvan break-up. I’ve talked about how waiting until mid-season, something that would be unprecedented bc they’ve never done it before, would be odd considering we will be dealing with vastly different concerns and conflicts by that point.

For them to hold off settling a break-up, that was built up all of s4 (arguably since s3), until mid-s5, would fall flat. If anything jumping right into the action means all the major stuff built-up, but left unaddressed in s4, is what we’re jumping back into.

They need to address those things so that they can move on to the aftermath of all of that and then beyond that. 5 episodes of ignoring that, and then 4 episodes of it happening and processing all of it AND dealing with endgame right as the finale is coming to a close, would be hard to juggle and make satisfying.

The reason they like this approach so much, is because it allows the audience to root for the other option in the love triangle. And with Will getting home-wrecker allegations as it is, a milkvan break-up is extremely necessary this time around as well, especially with byler being endgame and them really wanting us to root for them finally.

How can we do that if the Duffer’s break their own trend of early break-ups and in turn make it difficult for us to root for byler, all while leading on milkvan’s unnecessarily even longer (with no intention of going that route), making it even more unlikely for viewers to accept Byler endgame?

They’ve been building up to this inevitable break-up since s3, with s4 ending in a way that made it sort of obvious El is not happy with Mike and with Mike clearly struggling with something.

Are we just going ignore the implications of the inevitable painting reveal or the fact that Mike called El ‘his’ superhero (the most insulting thing he could do honestly, least of all during a love confession) at the end of s4, and have that confrontation be stretched out? For what? El hasn’t even responded to it or told us her side at all? She told Mike she missed him and that’s it… That’s all we’ve got. Like, let her speak and actually say how she feels about their fight in her room and the events at Surfer Boy and everything leading up to this inevitable moment for them.

While Mike and El didn’t outright break up in s4, there was heavy implications of it, and that was for a reason. They wanted us to watch those Will and Mike scenes throughout the season and see something more. Even though it didn’t end with a kiss between them, nor them officially getting together, they still did it because they wanted us to interpret those scenes as romantic comfortably. That's also why they kept Mike and El seperate at the end of s4, because they wanted us to look at Mike and Will in a way that made us go 🫣🫣🫣 at the very least.

Now, if s5 is leading to Byler endgame, just imagine how much more important it is to make it really clear that Mike and El aren’t happening?

Another even more important reason to have break-ups early in a season in general, is to allow the overall season to have a vibe that is cohesive as it’s own entity. Major stuff happens at the beginning and major stuff happens at the end, with the middle making up the overall vibe and feeling they want us to subscribe to the whole time, with certain pairings being constant that time more than the end/beginning. It makes more sense for us to root for byler most of the season, the whole middle, and for the first time at the end now as well, while letting go of El and Mike early on, even if it’s ambiguous like it was in the previous season. Personally I think the prospects of a dump your ass parallel are high… (can we do something interesting and fun like speculate how the break up would go down? Will it be angsty? Will it be lighthearted? Like I want to see all of those hot takes bc that's actually something that is more fun to think about than the 'when').

I know some people are here because they love romances or love queer romances and just enjoy shipping in general, but I’m genuinely here bc Byler makes sense based on all that stuff you would probably consider to be reaching. That stuff is the best part to me. So, if you don’t like others doing that, then consider muting those that you deem as people ‘misinterpreting the narrative’, again, according to you.

At the end of the day you can believe whatever you want to believe.

This idea that it’s okay to tell other people they are wrong and have baseless claims, all while ignoring the actual evidence they are presenting… Like I mean this just comes off like Milkvan’s telling Bylers they’re delusional for considering Mike and Will as being a possibility at all. If you have to constantly use, it’s not that deep as your core argument after being presented with evidence, while only yourself giving maybe one or two reasons at most for why your interpretation makes the most sense, then you’re probably not actually open to considering things based on evidence. You want to believe what you want to believe and you're projecting onto others for not following along with it.

Especially when it comes to the whole Mike having a coming of age story or whatever, where some fans have tried to make the argument that there is nothing to support that, when that actually couldn’t be further from the truth. Bylers have provided heaps of evidence. If all of that is not enough for you, that’s something that you have to contend with at this time. Just like us believing what we believe based on evidence we’ve gathered is our concern and something we have to deal with, not you. No need to apologize! Just try to worry about your own interpretation of things and feeling confident in that, but without having to tear down others' because they don’t subscribe to yours interpretation of things.

Because I feel like it would honestly be a lot more humiliating to insist other peoples theories are wrong and they’re only going to embarrass themselves in the end, only for that person saying that to end up being wrong… Everyone is making theories and everyone is bound to be wrong about some or even most. That's okay. That's natural. That's sort of an unwritten part in the agreement we all agree to by participating in this theorizing in fandom experience.

When it comes to Mike again and his arc, I always say this, but it really comes down to this more than anything.

Finn is 2nd top billed among the kids. He used to be THE top billed among the kids for s1-3, but then he got bumped down behind Millie in s4. There is a major possibility, that Noah is going to be ranked up, with him going from being paired up with Sadie, under Gaten and Caleb, to be bumped up under Finn with them sharing a title card. Though it’s unlikely they would rank Finn down under Noah, who was not even in the opening credits of s1, while he was the first name that season and the following two, meaning Finn's character Mike needs to live up to that top billed spot right behind Millie. He needs to have an arc on his own that is equally as substantial as Will and El's arcs, and separate from them just like theirs will have aspects that are separate from Mike as well.

Because Mike was the protagonist of the first season, he HAS to be important again in a similar vein in the end for the show to work as an overall five part story. When people go back to rewatch after s5, they are going to be met with Mike front and center. That will only be satisfying if we get genuine insight into his character in the final season, beyond the surface level.

Quite honestly, ALL of the kids deserve something deeper than what you are implying for Mike, and so applying that to him, the og protagonist, is just so absurd to me. If anyone is going to come out with a surprising arc we’re not expecting, it’s Mike. The audience is already not expecting Will to actually get the boy, that's the aspect that they aren't prepared for for Will, and so what about Mike's unexpected reveal?

Literally most of the audience doesn’t even think there is the slightest possibility Mike could be queer. You don’t think that warrants some addressing and unpacking…? You know… because he never really unpacked…?

I feel like people hear me say Mike is going to be important in s5 and go oh so you don’t think Will is the main character?? And it’s like?? Honestly my answer is yes and no. I think Will is literally the spine, the heart, or whatever you want to call it. In Finn's own words, he is the reason that everything happens and he is the most important character arguably, because of how important he is in terms of all of these events taking place throughout the series.

However, Mike is at the forefront from the very beginning and we arguably see everything from his eyes in s1 and 2 more than anyone else. But that goes away in s3-4. And that felt extremely intentional based on what is about to go down (byler endgame). You can tell that by doing this, they are trying to lead up to a reveal that brings him back to his original place in the story for the audience to see him as his most authentic self again, and with answers for why we lost that insight in between.

I could count up at least 20 Easter eggs hinting at Mike being in danger/targeted, which goes all the way back to the first episode of the series.

This isn't even considering, that another trend they’re likely to bring back in s5, bc if they don’t they’d be breaking a series long trend, is Mike being late. He starts every season late. And so, what is Mike going to be late for this time? Could it have something to do with all of the unknowns about him that are yet to be addressed?

I think that sometimes we say that something isn’t going to happen because we don’t want it to. A lot of this stuff I’m saying happening isn’t based on feelings, it’s based on actual evidence.

If you don’t want certain things to happen because of x, y, z, you can just say that is the case instead of making arguments that there is nothing supporting it, when that’s not actually true?

Like nothing? Nothing at all? Baseless? Like, be serious rn.

ST5 is very likely going to give off s1-2 vibes. While Mike is going to be less in the background compared to s3-4, Will AND El are still going to have equal, if not more attention than him, bc I do believe that their bond is what is going to also be a part of saving Hawkins.

The ending is going to be surprising bc those primary color-coded bitches are the answer to it all. If me saying that upsets anyone because it goes against their interpretation of things, I'm sorry too I guess!

#byler #stranger things #st5 speculation #pls go make theories of your own and have fun #if people don't subscribe to your theories #maybe don't assume everyone else is wrong #like is that really the only possibility here #i mean we all technically agree bylers are right about byler being endgame..#so they have a record for at least being close to being right because they're paying close attention to the details #i feel like using 'all bylers think this' as like a dig or some sort of attempt at discrediting a theory is sort of weak #a lot of people probably like something because it makes sense...#is that always the case?#no obviously not #still calling bylers delusional is so triggering like come on now why are we using milkvan methods #stop even implying bylers delusional #even if it's out of love #embrace the delusion #and let people be responsible for their own emotions if they're right/wrong in s5 #this is a tv show #we'll all be okay either way #but along the way lets not make play it off like we care for other people's feelings all while basically telling them they're stupid...#be confident in your interpretation and leave it at that

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chirpsythismorning · 1 year

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Y’all will be your own undoing the fact none of you have not even the slightest bit of doubt is rather worrying. what happens if neither is endgame and let’s say Mike is killed off? You can’t say that won’t happen either because you don’t know the same way you can’t say byler is endgame because you don’t know hell even milevens can’t say they’re ship is endgame because they don’t know. Ego is ruining both sides and neither side is correct and shouldn’t proclaim to be.

I'm sorry anon, but I'm not all bylers. While there are a great deal of bylers like myself who have less doubts these days, there are plenty that have mostly doubts. PLENTY. Arguably the vast majority. And for good reason, ie. history.

To be completely honest anon, I don't think you're worried about bylers and their lack of doubts. I think their lack of doubt scares you bc it's caused you to go from confident to having doubts yourself. Why else would you be here on anon all condescending otherwise?

Personally, I'm not even here bc I want to believe byler's endgame. And no offense to those that have went through it, because the whole point of queer-baiting is to basically mock queer fans and lead them on with no intention of following through, but I have never been queer-baited before.

I did however, like many milkvans, go into Stranger Things loving Mike and El under the assumption they were peak romance. I literally skipped all of s2 during my first rewatch to get to their reunion! But genuinely, do we think the show is supposed to be watched that way?? Hell no.

If you're having to skip all of s2, most of s3, most of s4 in rewatches, bc Mike and El are separated, fighting, or broken up, what does that tell you?

If you're having resentments for characters like Max and Lucas and Will and Hopper bc the story has made points to have those characters interfere with your confidence in Mike and El romantically, I'm sorry, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you're probably watching the show wrong. To be clear, if you have resentment for ANY of the main characters, you are missing something!!!

And that was my problem back then when I subscribed to these assumptions, because I WANTED to believe Mike and El were the pinnacle of romance, despite the signs incoming that went against it. And what that meant is I had to hold resentments for all the characters, including Mike and El themselves and even the Duffer Brothers for ruining what I WANTED to believe.

After s3, me, my friends, family and quite honestly anyone I spoke to about the show, said that it went downhill since the previous two seasons. And I do think a big part of the reason why, is because of the Mike and El conflict conflating everything. It felt regressive. And s4 repeating that exact storyline????

It took me a while to even consider byler as an idea. It's not like I latch onto every non-canon mlm ship and just ship for nothing (very few bylers do this, no matter how much anti's need to convince themselves this is the case as an excuse to be homophobic).

I am a hopeless romantic. Doesn't matter if it's queer or straight, I only ship stuff that I feel confident is endgame bc why would I put myself through scenes of something that doesn't feel right to me, merely bc I want to believe it and despite everything pointing against it??

Full serious, IF I was confident in milkvan endgame as a possibility, I would probably just convince myself to like them and provide evidence supporting it, bc I would honestly rather be right? Who tf wants to be wrong?

The problem was it didn't matter if I was initially convinced Mike and El were the pinnacle of romance (I was a child okay, give me a break...). Once I let go of that assumption because of all the doubts I had of them piling up, and took off my heteronormative goggles, I went woah... Holy shit. This show is actually fucking epic. Doubts gone. And the rest is history.

So, what happens if neither is endgame and Mike's killed off? I guess I would be confused, especially because the Duffer's specifically mentioned not being able to kill off Mike in a podcast last year. They gave their reasoning as to why, being that they take deaths on their show very seriously, needing 1+ seasons for them to show the characters mourning the loss. And so ending the show on that exact note, would be kind of a spoiler since they brought it up specifically? Therefore kind of redundant?

I guess, sue me for thinking the Duffers care about the show and put a lot of meaning into it. All of my analysis and theories are based on that assumption. No one's going to change how I think about that, so trust me, not worth getting worked up over it, anon.

If your evidence is all based on the assumption that the Duffers are not that good of writers, that almost everything on the show is coincidental and there's no deeper meaning beyond surface level, why are you even watching it in the first place? You do you I guess, but I just don't know why you wouldn't want to watch something that is more worth your time?

People being confident in their theories wont hurt you. If it bothers you so much, maybe find a way to be confident with your theories after looking at all the evidence from both sides. All sides. Any sides. If you still come up completely indifferent, then don't work yourself up by going on anon and making it other peoples' problem.

If it turns out everything meant nothing, and I was wrong about everything or most of what I interpreted, I will be okay! Because the show went from being about what I wanted to believe, to just what I genuinely believed.

Would I be disappointed? Sure. But lets hope I'm right bc in my scenario the show is epic and everything means something... not sure why anyone would root for the alt...

#byler #ask #queer-baiting is messed up #but I don't think anyone arguing against byler all condescendingly cares about queer-bait #antis are out here depending on queerbait to feel confident in their take on things #if you're just an honest person and have been through queer-bait and are trying to warn ppl who you view as yourself in a way #i sympathize with that #i get it #but there's seriously no reason to target people directly and complain about how their lack of doubt irritates you #like lets get a grip #this is a tv show #if this was a straight ship ya'll would not be out here getting so angry over this and talking all condescending #that's what it comes down to #if you're not homophobic #if you're not holding onto the idea of milkvan bc it's what you want to believe #if you are willing to actually look at all the evidence #instead of just speaking about it like it's an atrocity without actually giving it the time of day #then you'd be a lot closer to the truth about a lot of things on the show #unfortunately a lot of fans have to convince themselves nothing means anything to subscribe to milkvan endgame #and bc of that there's a lot of stuff that they missed #again #if there was enough evidence supporting milkvan #i would find a way to make it work in my brain and focus on the evidence #it's just unfortunate that a majority of their scenes works as the strongest evidence against them

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