It’s crazy to see how people interpret dean and sam’s brother dynamic as “wincest”
Some people have clearly never trauma bonded with their parentified older sibling. Then you take into account the degree of trauma that they have been through and continue to go through. Their codependency stems from their childhood and current traumas, their mental states due to that, the way they grew up with their father obsessing over the importance of “family is everything,” and the deep parentification of Dean, AKA Dean having to be a CHILD while raising his little brother, and taking care of his insane father. It’s not “wincest”/incestuous in anyway, it’s called trauma, parentification and general unstable family dynamics.
I think that a lot of “wincest” shippers don’t actually see what trauma can do to a person and their dynamics, specifically the people that endured that trauma with you. Dean, who was the older one that had to in HIS WORDS “be the mother, father, and brother” of his younger brother since the age of !4! is obviously going to be extremely protective/codependant of/with Sam, both because of the parentification and the words of his father carved into his very being. As for Sam, having Dean be all those things for him, means that more than anything, Dean is it for him because Dean RAISED HIM. Which is why, for so many reasons, what John said to Dean (killing Sam), was one of the most cruel things he could have done. John if not straight out, on some level knows that Dean and Sam will forever have a different dynamic because Dean raised Sam, ergo, Dean being more of a Parent to Sam than he ever was.
That’s not to say I think Dean was a “perfect parent” to Sam when he was raising him. No one can be “perfect” especially not a teenager raising his baby brother. What it means is that Dean had to sacrifice his childhood and grow up quickly for Sam to be not only Alive, but also so that Sam could -have- a childhood. All of this while Dean was still actively growing up, enduring his father, hunting, and having to come to terms with monsters. But he couldn’t allow himself to mess up, and going back to the idea of “perfect parenting” we see that no, he in fact was never “perfect” specifically when he leaves so that he can play games, and he sees that Sam’s safety is (extremely unfairly) placed on his shoulders. All of this, yet again along side with never having a stable home, having an unreliable source of income, and having to basically learn how to be an adult at 7, was the start of their dynamic.
As for Sam, we see that he got to play on soccer teams, go to school, and exist (while still having to endure all of the nightmares that is his homelife) outside of the hunting. Whereas Dean was the one who gave him this chance. This is not to say that Sam should ever feel guilt over this, or that Dean needed to do this. This is to show just how different their sibling relationship is, due to the trauma.
Dean treats Sam like a brother many times, but underneath it (or on top) you will always see that he is a parent to him more than anything.
“Wincest” is talking about their “strange/codependant relationship” in a romantic or purely sexual manner. This in itself just shows how many people don’t understand what it means to either have a kid or be a parentified older sibling. (I personally am not a parentified older sibling, but my sister who practically raised me is) and because of MY family dynamic I can speak from experience (definitely not to Dean and Sam’s extent) of having a parentified older sibling, and how that differs from regular sibling relationships.
Ok, this was a ramble, but as a whole “wincest” is extremely disturbing to me as a whole. And I don’t know what the rules are on this specific topic, so Idk how much I should say. But I definitely don’t condone inc*st to any degree, but to each their own ig.
Alright, I have SO much more to say on this topic. But I will hold back for now, just because I am sleepy.
XOXO
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trans headcanons of the winchesters are always extremely fun to play around with and i can see most of them. but one that always rings slightly false to me, despite a love for it due to self-identification and the fact it’s definitely interesting, is transmasculine dean. simply because if you’re going according to canon this would require him to have transitioned at some point prior to johns death, probably much prior, probably as a youngish kid. and i genuinely do not think that ever could’ve happened. he values johns approval too much and is too scared of demanding too much of him.
like even aside from whether john is Actually transphobic (i doubt he’s like Cartoonishly transphobic he probably would be annoyed by it slash not care much, interpret ‘not caring’ however you want) just the whole Thing of coming out where you’re like. “Hey dad im actually a human person who has an internal sense of self and such that doesn’t happen to be You 2.0 and am not the gender you thought i was and i feel emotions to such an extent that i actually like need to transition”…….
no fucking way dean would ever be able to do that to john while he’s still alive. please. teenage transmasculine dean would be like Well yeah sure i want to be a guy but that’s not an option for me whatsofuckingever. and crucially he’d be like that even if he knew entirely about trans people. now this is why transfemme dean works so well. because you just know it would take her at least thirty years to even consider it for a singular second.
on the other hand transmasc sam works so well because you can picture teenage transmasculine sam realising he’s a boy and promptly making it part of the whole entirely justified and very cool and fun teen angst rebellion FUCK YOU DAD thing. he could let spite carry him to the point of coming out. dean? he is burying that shit deep.
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oh god this is the grey poupon joke from 7x01 all over again (forcing me to further affirm my extreme deancodedness by understanding most or all of his stupid jokes and references). guys I’m sorry to ruin the fun but. “huggy bear” was not a gay pet name dean made up for cas, it was a tv reference. huggy bear was a supporting informant character on starsky & hutch, which ended in 1979 and which dean definitely would’ve seen in reruns growing up. it’s a “raised by tv in the 80s/early 90s” way of calling cas their informant. it may also be a little bit of a meta joke because huggy bear was unexpectedly popular with viewers (with most spn writers I would assume this was overthinking it but bedlund, bless him, does love his meta humor).
when dean calls cas “sunshine” that’s definitely just a gay pet name though
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HOLY shit you should write a time travel fic!!!! I want to see them all locked in the bunker together….. ES Sam and LS Dean watching their alt selves sew themselves together with horror and jealousy. ES Sam seeing LS Sam and thinking it’s the worst saddest thing he’s ever seen in his life.
I also think LS Sam and Dean fight more violently when they do fight? At least if we’re comparing season 1 and, like, 10, but even like s14. ES them watching that with a mixture of fury but also like. It’s unfortunately hot.
hello!!!!
i have actually been gently nurturing a ES!Dean and LS!Sam fic for months like coaxing a deer out of the woods. It's slow work and every time I open the doc it flees but ARGH!!! I HAVE SO MUCH TO SAY ABOUT THEM!!!!!!!!!!! hopefully i will be able to finish it soon
but all of them TOGETHER??? omg...your brain...is so big...let's discuss
ES!Sam would be ripping himself apart in jealousy, and would not even really know why. both deans flock to sam like he's the axis of the world, like he's the only person to ever exist, like he's some kind of god that drips sun from his fingers.
he's never seen his dean this vulnerable and weird and desperate for approval (not even recognizing that dean has also been desperately seeking his approval but whatever), and he HATES LS!Sam for it. he's openly hostile, and keeps making rude comments at him that make ES!Dean so angry lol.
bc LS!Sam also gave up on their dream! he doesn't even pretend to want to get out of hunting. he lives in a secret bunker and sleeps with guns under his pillow and talks of their father with warm hesitation like 'yeah he was messed up but he was good' and sam can't stand him. and he looks at his brother (both of them now, young and old like some weird mirror) like he's never seen anything more worthy. it makes sam sick, because he sees this as a defeat. LS!Sam is a coward, who gave up. not for wanting dean, but for betraying everything he's stood for for twenty-odd years.
(he doesn't know, of course, that sam has the life he wants)
LS!Dean, however, would know exactly why he's so fucking furious. and because ES!Dean is still dean, he'd be so mean to his younger self lol. he'd purposefully stop talking when his younger self walks in, keeps trying to separate he and LS!Sam, keeps trying to leave him behind on stuff so he can have 100% of sam's attention and love and concern again.
which i think LS!Sam would not tolerate lmao. he sees the kicked-puppy-earnest look in young dean and it's like sticking a steak in front of a starving man--he cannot resist!!!
LS!Dean makes ES!Dean more appealing to LS!Sam by being mean to him and ES!Sam makes ES!Dean more defensive of and devoted to LS!Sam by being mean to him lol
it's a lot of deans and sams to keep up with but they would be so tangled and messy
ES!Sam and LS!Dean keep catching each others' eyes when LS!Sam and ES!Dean are being sappy or open w each other, lips curled in jealousy. and at first it's some kind of twisted camaraderie, but at the end, LS!Dean walks up to ES!Sam because, god, he'd dreamed about this kid for years.
he's missed how angry sam used to be, how much faith he had in himself and his convictions, how passion lights him up all the time and not just when they're alone.
and maybe he claps a hand on sammy's shoulder and god, when did dean's hands get so big? when did he develop smile lines and crow's feet and scruff at his jawline? and why does it make sam feel like this?
the first time that LS!Sam&Dean fight, ES!Sam&Dean are absolutely gobsmacked. bc every fight with them is An End Of The World Fight. it's messy and personal and hurtful, only low blows, and barely-not-teary and you're-my-brother-i'll-let-the-world-burn and when did they start saying that shit out loud?? and dean watches the way LS!Sam towers over him, how his fists clench and his eyes flash and his lip curls and...uh-oh. and sam can't look away from how strong LS!dean is, how he carries himself like a blade and not a person and jesus christ.
LS!Sam&Dean would see the way that ES!Sam&Dean dance around each other, but how painfully earnest they are all the time, how cocky they are, and how narrow their idea of "things that can go wrong" is and it's heart-breaking but also...bolstering? reassuring? hopeful?
not to woobify dean, but i genuinely think that he Would Need LS!Sam's Approval Like He Needs To Breathe. i think LS!Sam would genuinely be charmed by this like one is charmed by a dog tripping over its own feet. and ES!Sam and LS!Dean are sick with jealousy abt how openly they let themselves need each other.
anyway. this is probably nothing. it's word vomit. but you get it!!!!!! anon <3 lovely anon <3 mwah
-lizzy
(ES = early seasons, LS = later seasons, for those who missed the last post here)
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