#touch-aversion

[allieebobo]

Hey, you can totally just ignore this, I'd hate to feel like i'm putting any pressure on you. But I was wondering, even if it's after the game is completely finished, would you maybe think about adding a Touch-Adverse option WITHOUT also having to asexual?

Some Touch adverse people (lol I'm people) 100% feel sexual attraction. But also still prefer if physical actions were limited to those we're close with, have shown blatant interest in or is initiated by us.

Ooh, no pressure at all, but I do know that my touch-averse and asexual coding for now is a big weakness of CT:OS. I haven't been very consistent with it, and I'm very sorry about that.

In the end, I think maybe I'll split out asexuality to = don't show any sexual scenes, and touch-averse to exactly what you mentioned above, i.e. characters will not initiate physical interactions (MC can still choose to do so).

But yeah, these two things will probably not be that clean / complete until I reach the 'editing' phrase of the IF. And yup, you can choose it somewhere else if you don't pick it in the beginning, so I hope that at least is a partial help / answer to your question! :)

#if #asks #ct:os #interactive fiction #asexuality #touch-aversion

[therosebanshee]

I want to cry a man who has to use Google translate has been flirting with me at my job I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt because he's old enough to be my father and I thought things might just be being skewed in translation, but today he kissed my hand and there is no skewing that in translation I also don't like being touched in general unless it's people I really care about, I don't know if that has to do with being demi or if it's just unrelated touch-aversion it feels like ants crawling on my skin. Now I need to figure out how to put up boundaries in spanish and not have it impact my job.

#personal #demisexual #demiromantic #unwanted advances #please dont flirt at peoples jobs #touch-aversion

[rjalker]

[ID: Two versions of the same pride flag. The first is square shaped, the second is wider and shaped like a rectangle.

The flag has six horizontal stripes of, in order from top to bottom: light grey, gold, orange, red, black, and dark wine purple.

End ID.]

November 19th 2022. Here's a PDF, slightly shorter version of this post and HD versions of the flags on the web archive. Here's the archived version of this post.

For everyone else who never experiences the supposedly-universal experience of “touch starvation”, I am coining two terms.

_____

First I am coining the term "solitaremit", to describe people who are touch averse and do not ever experience touch starvation.

Solitaremit is a combination of "solitary" and "hermit" because it's easy to remember and straight to the point, and doesn't exist anywhere else on the internet yet, so it can't be mixed up with anything else.

Solitary + hermit – the Y and H = Solitaremit

Soll-ih-tair-eh-mit (or met, it doesn't really matter)

_____

I am also coining the term "gregariable" to describe people who do experience touch starvation.

Gregariable is a combination of "gregarious" and "sociable" for people who do experience touch starvation, whether or not they're touch amiable or averse. This word also does not yet exist on the internet, so it can't be confused for anything else.

Gregarious + sociable - the ous and soci = gregariable

greh-gair-ee-uh-bull

_____

Solitaremit works as an adjective the same way as touch averse/touch repulsed do. IE: "It is solitaremit, it doesn't like being touched and doesn't get touch starved" “they are solitaremit”

Same with gregariable. "They are gregariable, they get touch starved." "I am touch averse and gregariable, I don't like being touched, but I still get touch starved"

_____

Solitaremity would be used to describe the thing...I can't think of the grammar word.

Example:

"Most of the stress 'caused by' solitaremity is caused by gregariable people refusing to respect solitaremit people's boundaries or existence." “I am researching solitaremity for a story I'm writing so I won't be ableist by mistake.”

I have edited tags related to solitaremity into all my posts about touch aversion, so you should, in theory, be able to search my blog for this word right now on the day I'm posting this and find stuff.

I have no doubt these terms will be shortened / streamlined as time goes on. That's perfectly fine, this is just something to give us a fucking foundation to at least stand on.

_____

List of the new terms:

Solitaremit / solitaremity / solitaremisia

Gregariable / gregariality

Solitaremit: Someone who does not enjoy being touched, and never gets touch starved. EX: “Murderbot is solitaremit, it never wants to be touched. Solitaremit representation in fiction is very rare, and it's even rarer for it to be handled respectfully.”

Solitaremity: “Solitaremity is treated as something to be ashamed of, because gregariable people are more common, are self-entitled, and have no fucking compassion for others.”

Solitaremisia: Ableism directed specifically against solitaremit people.

Bigotry against touch-averse people in general is called athiktomisia.

Gregariable: Someone who gets touch starved / desires touch, whether or not they are touch averse and would actually enjoy the touch.

Gregariality: “Gregariality is treated as the universal experience, unfortunately for those who are solitaremit, who are shamed for being solitaremit from the moment they start expressing discomfort with touch.”

_____

What do the flag colors mean?

I picked colors commonly seen on poisonous/venemous animals to ward off attacks. Monarch butterflies and other insects that eat milkweed for the yellow, orange, red, and black, poison dart frogs for the purple, and cottonmouths specifically for the light grey.

_____

Can I use this pride flag for art?

Yes. I'm the one who made it, and I say it's public domain because fuck capitalism. Use it for literally anything you fucking want. Credit is not even necessary, though I will ask that, whenever possible, you include an image description, as well as sharing HD images of the flags with those who don't have them.

_____

Some suggested tags to use or look through are:

solitaremit

actuallysolitaremit

actually solitaremit

solitaremitiy

canonically solitaremit characters

solitaremit characters

solitaremit positivity

_____

Who can identify with these terms?

Gregariable: Literally anyone who experiences touch starvation.

Solitaremit: Anyone who is touch averse //and never// experiences touch starvation.

_____

This term is //specifically designed// to be //exclusive// to people who do not ever get touch starved, and never have any desire to be touched whatsoever, //specifically// so that we can have tags and other things to search without being overwhelmed by people who are touch starved talking about how touch starved they are.

Other terms can be created for people who only very rarely experience touch starvation or anything like that as a spectrum, but these terms should not include as a whole or as a part any part of the word solitaremit, so that crosstagging will not occur, even by accident.

Please just create an entirely brand new word that is unique, just as solitaremit is unique. I made sure these words didn't exist yet for a reason.

The entire point of the coining of these terms is so that solitaremit people can find posts by others with the same apparently impossibly rare experiences. Who fucking knows, maybe there's more of us than anyone things.

I am EXPLICITY requesting that people further down the line NOT to create a term like “solitaremitspec” or use “solitaremit spectrum” or anything like that using the word solitaremit for anything other than to describe someone who is touch averse and literally never experiences or has ever experienced touch starvation.

Touch aversion and touch repulsion are already spectrum. If you must coin a new term to describe a spectrum of touch averse experiences, do not include the word solitaremit in it. Please. That's literally all I ask.

I am not trying to be mean, I am trying to make sure the voices of people like me are not drowned out in the future as they are right now, when everyone, /including other touch averse people,/ whether intentionally or not, still push the idea that it is a completely universal fact that every single person ever born craves physical touch from other people, and is going to suffer if they don't get it.

If you experience touch starvation, then speak for yourself, and make sure you aren't drowning out the voices of those who don't.

Also, to reiterate from another post - the only requirement for being touch averse is not enjoying being touched. You do not need to be autistic, you do not need to be traumatized, there are no requirements for being touch averse except not enjoying being touched.

I will be tagging this post as "actually autistic" because a lot of autistic people are touch averse, but it is literally not a requirement for being touch averse.

Also, for the record, being touch averse is 100% a disability. There are so many things touch averse people can't do or can't do without suffering that other people do not even think twice about.

TLDR:

Solitaremit describes people who are touch averse and have never experienced touch starvation.

Gregariable describes people who do experience touch starvation.

(Everyone is welcome to reblog this post.)

#long post #solitaremit #actuallysolitaremit #actually solitaremit #solitaremitiy #disability #disabled #neurodivergent #actuallytouchaverse #actually touch averse #actually touch-averse #actuallytouchrepulsed #actually touch repulsed #actually touch-repulsed #touch aversion #touch-aversion #touchaversion #touch repulsion #touch-repulsion #touchrepulsion #autistic #actuallyautistic #actually autistic #actually-autistic #autix #autism #neurodiversity #haphephobia #aphephobia #haphophobia

[mcrmadness]

I just realized it's not my sex-repulsion and romance-repulsion that make Tumblr almost impossible to use. It's actually my touch-repulsion.

Which, of course, is very strongly tied to my sex-repulsion and romance-repulsion but not all acts of physical intimacy are sexual or romantic in manner. That's where the touch aversion steps in, as well as why I understand demis better than allos (we don't even know most of our mutual well enough, how can people even joke about getting physically close to them???), because this app/website just is. Ugh. Everyone so into touching and everyone seems to be chronically touch starved and even if 90% of those posts are jokes, my touch-aversed aroace ass just has this involuntary "EEEWWWWWW" reaction in my head every single time.

My other problem is my hyperphantasia snd wild imagination which causes me to imagine everything in images which is not helping with the reaction to those three things I feel strongly repulsed by. I literally feel like this every single time such posts cross my dash:

I don't know how to get rid of such posts. Like. No, being my mutual or whatever does not give you a permission to touch me in any way, even if it's a joke meme onlinr that isn't meant seriously. I'm still not your target audience, and it makes me feel uncomfortable.

And yeah I know it's easier said than done. It's easy to rant here cos it's me who should avoid those, cos everyone has the right to exist, right? But that's another problem. Sexual jokes are so common. They're accepted. Everyone laughs when someone makes such a joke. But as an asexual, I always feel that my jokes that criticise sexual attraction, are not accepted. I have to listen to/watch others make sexual jokes about someone's outter appearance but no one wants to hear me go "Eeeewwwwee lol XD" because I'd be a party pooper and I guess saying "ewww" sounds like mocking someone's looks. But I'm "grey-aesthetic", most people's looks make me feel indifferent. Some don't, but it's like staring at a painting. Any suggestion of touching makes me gag and want to fight.

For allos it's so easy to get offended my aces and aros, but as an aroace in an allo world I don't have a way out. I can't say these jokes are disgusting without sounding like an asshole. Allos can tell me my jokes are rude when it's just the reality to me and not me just mocking or roasting others. I actually do feel strongly repulsed by any mental image people put into my head about them or other people tou hing others but I just have to. Sit and listen or walk out.

#mcrmadness' random stuff #touch-repulsion #touch-aversion #aromantic #asexuality #aroace

[canisalbus]

Vasco certainly doesn't mind at all, he's a highly touch-powered person and ear rubs are a common form of everyday low-pressure intimacy.

#own art #own characters #CanisAlbus #art #artists on tumblr #Vasco #Machete #anthro #sighthound #dogs #canine #animals #sketches #at least once Machete gets somewhat over his deep rooted touch aversion #and Vasco's ears are indeed very pettable

[thief-of-eggs]

Thinking about Lucifer using his shapeshifing ability to help overcome the barrier that is Alastor’s touch aversion between them.

Because- it’s different with an animal. It’s not the same to have a snake winding around your arm as it is to have fingers circling your wrist, not the same to have a bird perch on your shoulder as it is to have a hand clasp you back.

It’s different. Somehow, with these touches, Alastor doesn’t shrink in on himself. He doesn’t remember things he’d rather forget. He doesn’t feel any prickling in his skin, doesn’t feel a pit in his gut.

So Lucifer makes it work. When he needs cuddles- he turns himself into a cat, stretching and purring as Alastor pets him, as he carries him in his arms.

When he needs to be clingy, when he needs constant companionship- then he becomes a snake, wrapped possessively around Alastor’s arm, loosely around his neck-

He becomes a bird. A fox. A lizard. Whatever the day and the mood requires.

It works, for them. Because nothing about their relationship is conventional anyways.

They see each other across the chasm and find a way to build the bridge

#appleradio #radioapple #hazbin hotel #duckiedeer #lucifer x alastor #alastor #lucifer morningstar #lucifer magne #alastor hazbin hotel #lucifer hazbin hotel #hazbin alastor #hazbin lucifer #touch aversion #asexual alastor

[lambsouvlaki]

Jason gives the best hugs. It’s like if a weighted blanket was a person and also loved you. You are the burrito and he is the tortilla. Those arms are so big and strong and his jacket is nice and warm and perfect for snuggling under. If you’re short enough he’ll put his chin on your head and keep you tucked away nice and safe.

#jason todd #red hood #dc #jason todd x reader #fluff #he is touch averse so not many people know this #but he is also touch starved #and dying to get to hold you #grumpy dog energy

[sopping-wet-cat]

i was just gonna doodle pomni with a tail and it turned into a whole thing </3

#digital yuri #buttonblossom #ragapom #pomni x ragatha #jesterdoll #tadc pomni #tadc ragatha #tadc #tadc fanart #the amazing digital circus #touch averse + touch starved pomni #mmmnnnnnngggggghhhhhh #ragatha saying yippie gives me life

[critter-covenant]

"ooooh thank you! Thank you! Thank you!!!"

They'd be good friends I like to thinmk

#hoppy being very super touchy when happy or excited #catnap being touch averse with some exceptions (and preferring prior warning) #hoppy forgetting this fact and grabbing n' tugging him around when she gets excited anwyas (she'll apologize later) #they're so sillyyy #all the ways the critters get along on a one by one basis is so interesting to me I like to think about what makes them all click #im rambling again oops oops hoppy catnap friendship is also peak i take no criticism /silly #poppy playtime #poppy playtime chapter 3 #smiling critters #smiling critters fanart #catnap #hoppy hopscotch #poppy playtime fanart #sorry for disappearing for half a week I got sick and then just. didn't really draw sorry about that one chat #thats pretty normal behavior for me actually dw if I ever go silent for a while that's my norm unfortunately

[butterflyscribbles]

Bunch of fluffy miscellaneous turtle scribbles. Can you tell my favorite thing in the whole world is just drawing them all being super mushy towards each other?

#rottmnt #rise of the tmnt #rise of the teenage mutant ninja turtles #rise leo #rise mikey #rise raph #rise donnie #rise april #btw still all familial and platonic #they’re so good y’all they love each other so muchhhhh #also the first parts a bit donnie focused since I was thinking about all the contact he likes when he’s feeling up for it #he may be touch averse most of the time but rivals mikey in clinginess when he’s in a mood for it

[lariskapargitay]

No thoughts; just the Master having zero concept of personal space

#he wants her so bad it’s actually embarrassing #notice how the usual touch aversed Doctor never pulls away when he gets cup close and personal tho? #doctor who #thirteenth doctor #spydoc #thoschei #doctor x master #dhawan!master

[nburkhardt]

Saw a prompt and couldn’t let it go, so enjoy! 🥰 (no dialogue because I can’t figure that part out)

Steve has always craved touch even though he never got it.

His parents found out his unique ability at a young age when Steve touched his aunt and she immediately fell to the floor dead. Just from his skin touching hers. After that he wasn’t allowed any sort of touch, his parents warned anyone and everyone to avoid touching him. Near everyone in town knows, knows to avoid touch with him; stays away from him.

Steve manages, as much as someone can with deadly powers.

He figured out how to get his own comfort from plush toys and once he figured out when others touch his clothes first, nothing happens. He figures wearing sleeves and pants and gloves will always be his best options.

Still touch-starved though.

He has friends, but no one wants to get super close. Too afraid to accidentally touch. His parents leave often, also too afraid of his ability.

Eddie was told by his Uncle Wayne that he was special.

That when he was five, he was in a terrible car accident that should’ve killed him. It did kill his mom, but the emts and doctors were shocked that Eddie was fine. He was hurt, sure, but completely fine otherwise.

So, he grew to be little reckless. Lives on the edge and found out at sixteen that he can’t die. After several visits with specialists, it was officially confirmed.

He’s able to get hurt, pretty badly sometimes. But besides that, he can’t die. Which scares him just a bit but not enough to stop living life on the edge.

Steve leaves his hometown as soon as he can with only his things and a plan to get as far away as he can from all the people who are afraid of him.

He’s also afraid, so afraid that he’s not only touch-starved but also a little touch averse now. Doesn’t want anyone to die just by simply touching him. He might want touch, but will always be afraid.

They meet by chance, but mostly because of Eddie being a reckless idiot and his friends daring him to try running across very busy traffic. Which, as the daredevil he is, Eddie attempts to do it.

He’s only stopped by Steve freaking out at seeing it. For once, Steve acts before his brain catches up with him. Just throws his gloveless hand and grabs hold on Eddie’s arm to force him to stop moving.

Eddie jerks back and for a split second, feels a warmth before it fades. He’s taken back, annoyed at being stopped but also very confused. Most people that live here, know him. Know that he can get hurt but can’t die.

So this random person grabbing hold of his arm is new.

The touch registers in Steve’s head minutes later, as Eddie stares at him. He immediately lets go with wide eyes and panicking. But instead of the guy dropping dead, he’s still standing.

Eventually they’ll talk, they’ll learn each other’s abilities and someday in the future learn to love each other.

~~

Sooo, I can’t figure out how to work out dialogue into this. Or really flesh out their abilities. But it’s a thing! If you want to take this and pick it apart, you’re definitely welcome to do so! (If you do tag me!)

Permanent tag list:

@spectrum-spectre @itsfreakingbats @mysticcrownshipper @artiststarme @thereindeerlady @justforthedead89 @ronniescontinuum @freyaforestafay @littlewildflowerkitten @gregre369 @zerokrox-blog @flustratedcas @carlprocastinator1000 @marvelmwah @solliesolesito @navnae @i-less-than-three-you @grimmfitzz @estrellami-1 @cartercaptainofthemoon @strangersteddierthings

#steddie #Steve Harrington #Eddie Munson #stranger things #nburkhardt writes #Steve x eddie #steddie au #touch starved steve harrington #but ALSO #touch averse Steve Harrington #reckless Eddie Munson #Eddie’s totally a daredevil you can’t tell me otherwise #it’s sorta x-men related but also very much not

[weevmo]

I relate to him more than I'd like to admit -

- his Styles are understandable - and he gets where he needs to be eventually!!

#weevmo #lemongrab #earl of lemongrab #adventure time #adventure time lemongrab #adventure time fanart #im not so very nasty #but the touch aversion? #the screaming? #yes yes hah #but more positive (mostly) #i dont know if its a good thing i relate to him xD

[rjalker]

anyways new word because "ableism" is too broad.

July 21st, 2022, for posterity.

athiktomisia:

A term for the bigotry perpetuated against people who are touch-averse.

From the Greek word athikto, which according to google translate means, "intact, untouched, untouchable, unscathed, intangible, inviolate" ect. There does not seem to be a direct translation for the word "untouchable" so close e-fucking-nough.

So yeah.

Bigotry against people who are touch-averse is ableism broadly, and more specifically can be called athiktomisia.

Please use "athiktomisia" rather than "athiktophobia", because treating phobias like they're bigotry is ableist.

Have at it.

I'll be retroactively editing any relevant posts to use this term so they're more specific, so don't be confused if you see it appearing in posts made before this one.

Please consider signal boosting even if you aren't touch-averse :)

#actually touch averse #actuallytouchaverse #touch-averse #touch-aversion #athiktomisia #actuallyautistic #actually autistic #<- including so more people see this. you do not need to be autistic to be touch-averse or to use this term #actuallytouchrepulsed #actually touch repulsed #touch-repulsed #solitaremit #actuallysolitaremit #actually solitaremit #solitaremitiy

[redysetdare]

Thinking abt how so many characters in media who canonically state that they don't like people touching them constantly have their boundaries broken and are forced into hugs by other characters and every single time they are shown to be upset it's supposed to be a flaw that they need to overcome until they just are forced to accept/like it.

#text #touch averse #no wonder ppl assume the same of real ppl #everyone wants to think of themselves as the acception as the one who will fix you and make you like hugs #i hate that. i hate you media who have characters with touch aversion as a flaw #we need more characters who are just touch averse and people accept that #no acceptions no 'growth' no 'fixing them' or 'making them love hugs' nothing. #only thought abt this becuz im rewatching kipo and it bugs me so much that wolf tells kipo to not hug or touch her #and kip just responds with 'deal with it' and then later on wolf is suddenly fine with hugging and repeats kipos line #it feels so wrong because it was a blatant disrespect of boundaries that was played off as a good thing

[fumifooms]

Analysis of Laios’ succubus and theories on what it means - deep dive on Laios’ desires in human connections

Laios’ succubus is a very odd incident. I have some particular interpretations of why it was Marcille, and why things went down the way they did.

We know that a succubus shows what one desires, stated in canon as “an alluring form”; yes often in a romantic or sexual sense, as seen with Chilchuck’s succubus being entirely set on looks and seduction, meanwhile Marcille’s does have a focus on chivalrous noble demeanor as well, showing romantic behavior and personality. BUT with Izutsumi we also see that the liaison doesn’t have to be romantic or sexual at all, either, in Izutsumi’s case it’s a familial bond she craves. So perhaps we can say that the succubus exploits a desire based on connection, in whichever form that takes. Marcille wants an emotional connection foremost(which is also reflected in how it’s a character she knows very well and not a stranger. Perhaps romantic.), Chilchuck wants pleasure(a simple pleasure not unlike alcohol, perhaps such a connection is free of the more risky or unpleasant parts of a relationship, he doesn’t have to worry or to think and can just let himself go. Sexual.), Izutsumi wants a mother figure that can offer her warmth and comfort with who she doesn’t have to be tough (Familial), and I believe Laios’ is platonic and centered on his desire to have people with who he belongs and can be himself with…

But Laios’ case is more complex, it has layers. The thing is, even if Laios wanted to have someone able to turn him into a monster—which it didn’t even have to be, could straight up have just been a monster with such powers—, it didn’t have to be someone he knew. You could say the succubus wanted to disarm Laios’ suspicions with someone he knew and that was nearby, but the succubus seem very direct in every other case, simply appearing with someone’s greatest appearance even though both Marcille and Chilchuck were fully on guard and the succubi knew it. "Believability" isn’t an important factor. No, his succubus being someone he knew was important. It being Marcille was important.

There’s a TLDR at the end of this if you want to cut it short. For everyone else, strap in everyone, if you don’t know me hi I’m Fumi and I made this 3k words long analysis and theorizing bc I am autistic much like the character in question and I think this is both fascinating and has a lot to say. In this I offer both platonic and romantic reasonings and I do go rather in depth in Laios’ psychology and relationships to dissect what ever could this damn cryptic event MEAN. Spoilers for the succubus chapters obviously and also the last few arcs of the series so… Spoilers for the series as a whole!

—

So attraction wise it’s kinda unsure where Laios stands. He does sort of logically list off aesthetically pleasing traits of the orc’s wives, but besides that… Not really, or he never voices it anyways. He and Marcille never share like “omg you’re pretty” moments or anything. Senshi gets more compliments than either of them through the series lmfao. Maybe Laios is asexual, maybe he simply doesn’t show outwardly his attraction much or even maybe isn’t self-aware about it, regardless… Laios HAS implied preference for Marcille’s looks in the past. With the orcs, he said that “tallmen like long ears”. Laios’ shapeshifter of Marcille has her hair down just like her succubus, which by Kui is explained to be because she had it down when she revived Falin and it really marked him, though it could also be interesting to see it as his mental image of her as her most authentic self, I’ve seen it theorized that it’s a preference too but I think that’s disproven. But of course the most damning evidence itself… The succubus scene. It could have been anyone else in the party, certainly Senshi shares Laios’ interest in monsters much more already. We shouldn’t discredit the way Laios was blushing madly once she revealed she was a monster, that made her more attractive to Laios for sure, but he still wouldn’t have reacted that way if it was just anyone. The contexts are very different, but we can compare it to how Laios reacted when Lycion turned into a wolf man in front of him for instance. Laios certainly doesn’t act that way with Izutsumi- and it’s confirmed like a page later that he does see Izutsumi as a monster already. AND!! Laios starts blushing madly BEFORE she says that she can turn him into a monster- and we can safely assume that the blush isn’t out of simple fluster but out of desire/infatuation since he clearly wants her to bite him in the next page and his blush does not relent at all.

There’s something we could say about Laios’ liking of Marcille being born out of companionship rather than aesthetic attraction, on familiarity and intimacy. As members of the same party they’ve spent a lot of time together and we’ve seen that Laios trusts in her and relies on her for her skillset and avice. If Laios’ interest in her developped more naturally and gradually, valuing the familiar bond they have, I don’t see why he’d be acting all blushy and lovesick every time they interact or whatever, which is the explanation I have for Marcille genuinely being Laios’ most alluring form but him not freezing at the sight of it. That could also be a reason why he physically rejects succubus!Marcille instinctively, because something about her feels off or different (which is sorta the most direct interpretation of the scene, since Laios’ first thought is that it can’t be Marcille and must be a monster).

 [Edited in: Oh my god. The picture above is the last page of the dullahan chapter, chapter 57, a chapter that centers around Laios and Marcille’s relationship through flashbacks as Laios is on the brink of death and sees his life flashing before his eyes (he remembers how they first met, etc, which is also interesting to note that on the brink of death he reminisces about her the most). The last page of that chapter, more or less the thesis of the chapter in which we see Laios opens up about the real reason he and Falin go dungeon diving to her after them having a rough meeting but she turns out to also have an interest in dungeons, has Laios go "she starts out frowning but she ends up smiling! Wether its’s about eating monsters or about me :)”. That chapter is the one right before th succubus chapters. Laios’ most alluring form wasn’t “just” Marcille, it’s a SMILING Marcille. Which is why the succubus had such a weird and off demeanor right away (which gets knocked off once it doesn’t work and becomes a more Marcille-like Marcille)! It was only focused on smiling because it was the angle it was working from.

Oh my god it makes sense. It’s a direct narrative link, it’s as explicitly put with its story structure without Kui just stating it, besides, you know, the many times Laios says how precious her smile is to him. He’s like “I love her smile” and right next chapter the succubus is like “yes this is what he likes seeing most”. But… This also does mean that the focus might be less romantic, like Marcille’s significance doesn’t diminish, but then the alluring form might be less about her and more about the smile itself. About having a friend who looks at him like that, about someone who smiles after eating monster dishes or surpassing obstacles together… Or it can actually be so much more romantic. Like, maybe the smiling Marcille doesn’t work is because well, it’s not like Marcille, she wouldn’t just be smiling like that and behave like that (esp since his musing is about how her smiles are sort of “earned”, that she doesn’t smile right away but it’s sort of like a rewarding sight when she does). So then the most alluring form of Marcille doesn’t work because she doesn’t convincingly BEHAVE like her. His most alluring form isn’t a Marcille-lookalike, it’s her as a whole. More on the succubus shifting/switching in its approach later.]

Anyways.

Where was I. Ah yes, “It could have been anyone else in the party, certainly Senshi shares Laios’ interest in monsters much more already.” But then that’s the point isn’t it. I think Laios’ succubus being Marcille is because his wish isn’t so much focused on her, or on becoming a monster, but on not being alone. On being understood. On having others finally share his interest. On not only becoming a monster, but having someone to share that with. A trusted friend, a companion, or a lover, it matters little in my interpretation, the bedrock of it stays the same. And this is why it’d be someone he already knew instead of someone new, because it’d defeat the point, and it was maybe Marcille because she’s the most vocal about finding monsters disgusting: it’d have finally been a shift in her that she now liked monsters. And again this brings back to when he talks about her smile, when he says that she starts out unhappy with eating monsters, but ends up smiling by the end of it. Her smile itself represents that though first impression or reflexive dislike, someone can turn around and end up liking it anyways, it’s hope for his interests to be liked and perhaps for him to be lovable as well, that it’s possible to be accepted.

But I do think it would be a mistake to say that there’s absolutely no romantic interest, that it’s plainly platonic or another kind of interest misplaced and idealized in her. What we saw with the other succubus is that they 100% act in ways that the person desires, sure Izutsumi’s start attacking after a while, but that was after pushing them over the edge, and succubus Marcille wasn’t being agressive nor did she have a reason to be (even when she could have with Laios’ choking, she didn’t turn to violence, so she was 100% still in seduction mode). Ultimately the goal of the succubus is to make physical contact to be able to suck their essence, but the way they go about achieving that is tailored to the individual’s desire, Marcille’s kissed her hand and Izutsumi’s offered a hug.  The succubus can identify and embody complex desires, often subconscious ones, shown with Izutsumi’s. They go straight to it without complex subterfuge either. Chilchuck’s succubi were very direct because that’s what he wanted, Marcille’s was courtly because that’s what she wanted, Izutsumi’s offered motherly comfort and affection because that’s what she wanted, and Laios’ is Marcille attempting to kiss him. Let that sink in.

Laios why are you choking the supposed key to your heart?

Ok so the theory that Laios’ desire is to have a deeper companionship from an existing companion is pretty tame and surface level I’d say, but strap in… The way Laios reacted violently to Marcille trying to kiss him is VERY interesting. The first thing he thinks about is that she isn’t Marcille so she must be a succubus, then confusion at to why it’s her. He’s even afraid of what the others would think, feeling… Shame? With how he imagines Marcille would be horrified that he likes her that way. Fear of rejection?

But no no, what interests me is the shift that the succubus makes. It seemed very confident at first, went straight in, but when overpowered shifted the direction it was going in- shifted from a desire for Marcille to a desire for a monster Marcille and whatever deeper desire that hides. But??? Succubi did not make mistakes as to what someone wanted thus far, possibly that has never ever happened before by human records. Could the succubus truly have miscalculated what Laios desires? It’d be hard to imagine that the succubus would misunderstand what type of companionship someone wished for or what approach to take, since it’s done complex cases before too, Izutsumi being very much in denial before it & at first. In Izutsumi’s case, even with her complex feelings over it and her two souls desiring different things, the succubus did not miss its mark, and ultimately it was having a second soul for who the succubus wasn’t alluring that allowed her not to be frozen to the spot. But with Laios the succubus fully switches strategy.

The thing is that succubi don’t usually need to switch strategies, because the form and approach they take always work and always leave the victim frozen. Izutsumi bypassed this because of her two souls, but was still frozen and struggling to reject the succubus at first. And yet? Laios did. A succubus’ victim is supposed to be instantly frozen, and yet Laios acts on instinct and defensively agressive as soon as his reaction time allows. And well, it’s hard to really come to a logical conclusion as to why, since we have no idea of what rules can override a succubus’ temptation besides multiple souls… C’mon regular Marcille can’t be the winged lion/kenksuke’s desire bc of the loose hair being Laios’ mind-Marcille we’ve gone over this /hj Although, since it’s confirmed that the winged lion was watching with the dream Laios gets induced right after, maybe he’s what allowed Laios to be moving? It’s possible that it’d have frozen him otherwise, even if Laios with his full rationale wouldn’t have accepted the kiss faced with supernatural allure he might have gotten paralysis from being overwhelmed, similarly to how if Chilchuck had his full rationale he wouldn’t allow a woman like his succubus to kiss him (he’s always stayed faithful to his wife even after 4 years of separation, give the guy his earned credit). Getting somewhat offtopic, but something to say about how if that’s the case once again the theme of ‘irrational desire you crave vs what you truly want/need’ that is present throughout the manga would be reflected.

My best guess however on why Laios reacted so quickly and forcefully is: trauma. The more recent arcs with Laios suggest that Laios has deep-seated trauma over humans. He dislikes humans as a whole, that was like, pretty much stated, though perhaps exaggerated. As a kid he fantasized about monsters wiping out human towns. We know Laios has been ostracized for most of his life by others, in his village and in the military, and beyond social rejection it’s shown he got beaten in group too and it was implied that it happened regularly. But damn, disliking humans to the point of wanting to be a monster and murderous genocidal reclusive envies and all of that stuff? That is massive trauma, massive identity & belonging issues and hint at massive trust issues.

So then, the negative reaction could be because of Laios’ deep trauma with humans. Because of trauma getting activated, not due to a miscalculation on the succubus’ part but due to a contradicting dislike of the desire that makes the form inherently and straight out of the gate un-alluring, Laios’ repression being so strong that he’s able to affect his own desires in that way, or an instinctive defense response to the trigger (a human).   Even though Laios hides it well, once again recent arcs (and some other moments) make it clear that Laios still has some innate dislike of humans, which in canon is a term that all races like elves fit in. He has a bias against them, perhaps even an innate distrust of them. Who knows how aware he is of it, or how much control and will he has over it. What if Laios reacting agressively to it was his defense mode tied to this kicking in, a survival and security instinct, stopping any possibility of Laios wanting a romantic relationship with a human? Any chance of that human getting close and being hurt by it, either rejected or stabbed in the back? It’d then make sense if Laios is unaware and doesn’t understand his attraction to Marcille then, if it’s a sort of self-made blockage, denial. And that’d make full sense with how, when Marcille is suddenly a monster, then all of Laios’ reluctance is gone and he’s fully enthralled, all that it took was taking away that one blockage for Laios to be utterly charmed. It takes away the trigger element, humans, and replaces it for something safer. A desire for connections, but connections with people that are ‘safe’, people who also don’t fit in with society, who are part of his interest in monsters, who would accept and understand him. I think that Laios does desire human connections, specifically, but can’t allow himself to pursue them either from conscious or unconscious trauma, so though he does desire it he can’t accept that he does/can’t accept the relationship even if it’s handed to him on a silver platter.

Conclusion

The succubus’ shift could then be either that it switched from one wish, a wish for Marcille, to another, a wish for companionship in monster-liking, or that it stayed on the same fundamental wish, but had to improvise with the new information (that Laios is human-averse)(not bc it didn’t exist previously but bc it wasn’t manifested) to take out of the equation the thing that was holding Laios back (from giving in).

But well, the fact that the rest of the party is included does lean towards the former, but in any case that doesn’t erase all I’ve spoken about, all about how Marcille is 100% the focus of this whole thing. It could still be a bit of both. But it is interesting that he worries about the party’s reaction to seeing his succubus being Marcille, and when she shifts into monster Marcille he *still* worries about the others: “b-but what about the others?” He’s a mess, with his most alluring form seducing him, and he still has a shred of resistance in him to question how the others would react, and it’s only when she says that they’re already monsters too that he truly gives in. Is he really so afraid of ostracization? Of losing the people he cares about due to judgement? Then the mention of the others in the party can simply be something the succubus added on top to unlock another “blockage”, the same way she added Marcille being a monster on top of the basic premise of Marcille; Take out the immediate dismissal of humans first, and then the fear of loss and judgement from other friends so Laios can finally stop worrying and give in. That worry/framing I’d say makes the latter more credible, because it’s not the premise of the alluring form but an extra.

In the end, like the recent arcs kind of spell out, the thing central to Laios’ character is less so a love for monsters and moreso a dislike for humans, and this is what this puts on full display.

Laios’ most alluring form is Marcille, a human that doesn’t understand his interests and thus him, and regardless of everything else that Marcille is, that is so traumatic to him that all of his being immediately rejects it.

—

Thanks for coming to my ted talk! I’ve spent so much time thinking about this and wording and rewording this same train of thought, also it’s the end of my college semester and I’m going crazy

Tldr: My personal fav theory for Laios’ succubus is that Laios really values Marcille’s smile a ton like it’s often mentioned, and that’s what his most alluring form centers on. I’ve got a ton of different interpretation on the why it’d go for a kiss? Since it tailors its approach to the person’s desires, but obviously something goes wrong with Laios’, which is really interesting because even with Izutsumi who resists because she has 2 souls so one part of her can always remain unaffected, the succubus hit bullseye on her most alluring forms. But regardless of that, I think his desire for Marcille (either her or what she represents, wether as a platonic ideal or something else) isn’t wrong/untrue perse, but that Laios has such a complex with humans and intimacy and connecting with others that his defense mode kicks in and that’s when the succubus has to shift into a different, safer desire: one that doesn’t involve humans but that still shows connections and acceptance and belonging. Also Laios realizes that it isn’t Marcille when she goes in for the kiss, which if his allure for her is based on familiarity since they’re friends and all could make sense that it’d break him away from it, or since it’s a liking based on familiarity he doesn’t freeze, or maybe it’s because the winged lion has its eye on him. I think that’s so much more likely with how Kui makes even her jokes be character moments or at least consistent, and also with the tension of the scene, than just the scene being a gag about how Marcille doesn’t mean much to Laios actually.

I think there’s a lot to be said about why Marcille is special to Laios, why her smile means something to him, etc, and I don’t think saying Marcille is special to him is exaggeration or reaching at all. Laios, Marcille and Falin are the golden trio, she’s the deuteragonist, she’s the only other character in the main party whose goal in going back for Falin is Falin and who has a bond with her and Laios outside of being coworkers, in post-canon they live together, happily, in the anime’s ending they’re emphased on by dining out all three together... I could go on.   Marcille has the benefit of being very trusted by Laios, not only with the time they’ve spent together but how she was Falin’s friends first, the person he himself feels so protective of and has been so consistently ostracized throughout her life. Marcille represents a positive odd one out that’s like, the good example of "humanity can be good and safe and warm actually".  Which is a big reason why imo Marcille is like, the secondary protag and with Falin they form the golden trio. She’s central to the story in many ways including making Laios see that humanity is worth saving and sticking with, but that’s a topic for another analysis. One such reason is how his first meeting with her went: it started really badly but ended with her coming around and unexpectedly sharing their interest in dungeons, which made him and Falin open up about the real reason they go dungeon diving, perhaps for the first time. There is just so much that goes into it but Laios seems generally very expectant of rejection: in the climax chapters after he transformed back as a human and was hiding out in the woods, pre-canon in an extra where we see him battling himself on if he should suggest eating monsters or not. But another one, the one I truly want to bring up in this post, is how genuine Marcille is! And funnily enough, how dramatic she is, and how her elf ears change position depending on her emotions. Like, let me compare her affectionately to a dog for a second, but dogs move their ears and use whole body language to communicate, and I think that part of Marcille, really strong emoting, with her ears and body language on top of her often dramatic facial expressions, reassure him. Like ok, maybe he can’t tell when Shuro and Kabru would lie to him, but Marcille? She wears her heart on her sleeve and her feelings on her whole self. And that takes away some of the stress and trauma he has with humans, explains why her smiles would “put him at ease”, doesn’t it?

I don’t remember wether I’ve mentioned this somewhere or just in my reblog linked at the end of the post, but while at first I thought the succubus going for a kiss on the lips heavily implied a romantic desire in Laios,  now I have a couple different theories on why the succubus would have gone for that approach. I think the most likely is that, if the principal allure of his succubus is her smile, the succubus is like "as long as he sees her face right up until i can suck up his blood and he passes out I’ll be gucci", so it’s not about the kiss but about him seeing her face all the while until the very last moment, so he stays charmed.

Btw chapter 34 explores Laios’ relationship with touch too imo, and we see that he is uncomfortable with touch to some degree, very unsure and hesitant and tense. I feel like it’s something more shown in a bigger picture sense with his whole struggles with humans and extras, than just in any one page so go reread the beginning of that chapter if you want I’d say, but putting a page below as example anyways. I think it’s notable that it’s a character moment shared with Marcille too, she acts sort of like a bridge to humanity with social propriety and being extroverted in many cases. In the chapter Chil and Marcille point out how awkward he is with touch, but he learns to be casual/comfy enough about touch to do healing magic with her (something that was also enforced through him having to practice magic on Marcille turned to stone, he got a lot of touch exposure and magic practice done in those days. Dammit Laios, MArcille and touch is worthy of a whole analysis of its own). She’s just like, his human comfort zone, even if they aren’t that close at least at first, besides Falin he has literally like no friends and I think that itself shows how he doesn’t fit in well socially and that it’s a significant struggle for him. But yes what I was saying here is I believe there’s setup for him recoiling from touch like he did with the succubus (due to an instinctive aversion to touch made especially intense due to the succubus’ oddness and forwardness).

I have even more theories and rambling on details on the succubus here in a reblog, but unless I want to put in some pictures of Laios repressing himself around others and such I don’t think I’ll be touching this post again in a while

#dungeon meshi #delicious in dungeon #dunmeshi #laios touden #scene analysis #character analysis #analysis #chapter 60 succubus #spoilers #dungeon meshi manga spoilers #marcille donato #autistic king of trauma laios #-points at him- that’s me!… That’s me!! #laimar #but this isn't laimar truthism #polished this up since it's been like what six months #looked upthe dates it's been nine months... Whew #something something 'the reason you're both touch starved and touch averse is you spent so long without human touch that you interpret any #touch as a threat'