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#anti jim starlin
wanderingmind867 · 15 days
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It's worse than I thought. Captain Mar-Vell and Jason Todd died six years apart, and their deaths were written by the same man. That's such a short span of time! Oh, and it gets worse and weirder.
According to Wikipedia, Jim Starlin described writing the death of Captain Marvel as "cheaper than going to a shrink". Jesus Christ, Jim Starlin! Look, I get it. Jim Starlin's dad died of cancer. My mom died of brain cancer a few years ago. But when my mom died, I went to therapy! I didn't write a story of a fictional character dying of cancer! Jesus Christ!
Also, Jason Todd 's was kind of thanks to Eddie Murphy. I'm not kidding. Denny O'Neill saw a 1982 SNL sketch in which Eddie Murphy encouraged viewers to call the show if they wanted him to boil a lobster on air. And that inspired him to do the 900 number poll gimmick.
Oh! And Kicker #3! DC wanted to have a character die of AIDS, and Jim Starlin filled the suggestion box with proposals to kill off Jason, but DC staff rejected the idea after realizing all the papers had Starlin's handwriting. Let me repeat that, louder. JIM STARLIN TRIED TO RIG A SUGGESTION BOX SO HE COULD KILL JASON TODD WITH AIDS! Jesus Christ! What's wrong with you, Jim Starlin!
You know what? Captain Mar-Vell and Jason Todd should be allowed one free suckerpunch to Jim Starlin when he finally dies. When a man kills a character off as a form of therapy and tries to give another character AIDS (and both within one six year time span), there's probably something wrong with him.
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heroesriseandfall · 2 years
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Jim Starlin, getting mad that DC is putting a fictional child in danger: The best way to fix this is to kill the child.
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nerds-yearbook · 1 year
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In the final issue of Cosmic Odyssey (cover date March, 1989), after Batman failed, Forager sacraficed his life in order to save the Galaxy. ("Book Four: Death", Cosmic Odyssey 4#, Comic, Event)
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evilhorse · 10 months
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It’s an unnerving experience.
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cantsayidont · 7 months
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June/July 1971. A vital aspect of Jack Kirby's original Fourth World books is that they were, for all their strangeness, often urgently topical. There's no more forceful example than THE FOREVER PEOPLE #3, which introduces the sinister Glorious Godfrey, preacher of the church of Anti-Life. Godfrey was inspired by Evangelical preacher Billy Graham, and Kirby's feelings about him were not subtle:
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Oof. A crowd of blank-eyed, self-stigmatized believers, eager to surrender their individual will in pursuit of scapegoats upon whom to vent their rage. As we'll see, this is a call and response, part of a sermon by Glorious Godfrey:
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In later, non-Kirby appearances of Godfrey and the Justifiers, DC has presented Godfrey as having supernatural powers of persuasion and the Justifier helmets as electronic mind control devices that can immediately overcome the wills of even determined anti-authoritarian types like Oliver Queen. Kirby walks a finer line in this story: Godfrey is using his high-tech pipe organ (pictured above left) to drive his believers into an ecstatic frenzy and "stimulate the brute instincts." However, everyone in his church is there because they believe in his horrifying message: "Life will make you doubt! Anti-Life will make you RIGHT!"
As for the Justifiers, the helmets in this story don't work by Mad Hatter-derived mind control circuitry, but by something much scarier: the promise of power in anonymity.
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Godfrey's Justifier captain, for one, may be a dupe, but he's clearly not mind-controlled:
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Godfrey's facial expressions in this story make the skin crawl. Look at his unctuous smile, full of utter contempt! Kirby, who watched a lot of TV while drawing, had undoubtedly seen Billy Graham's televised sermons, and the revulsion he obviously felt is palpable here.
This is a harrowing story — the Justifiers murder, bomb, burn books, and round up whole neighborhoods of "Others" to be carted off to concentration camps run by Darkseid's henchman DeSaad — but perhaps its most unexpected twist is the revelation that at the end of the day, Godfrey is really just a huckster. He sells Anti-Life, but not only is his pitch not driven by the supernatural force of the will-destroying Anti-Life Equation Darkseid is seeking, Godfrey doesn't really even believe the Equation exists.
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Kirby draws an important contrast between Godfrey's church and the Source Wall on New Genesis, where Highfather receives the word of the Source directly, written in fiery letters by the disembodied hand of the Uni-Friend. In THE NEW GODS #1, Orion declares, "The moving hand appears! The Source gives us the irrevocable counsel!" Highfather corrects him, saying, "But it does not decide! The right of choice is ours! That is the Life Equation!"
The central conflict in Kirby's Fourth World saga, then, is not good versus evil, or belief versus nonbelief — it's choice versus subjugation, Life versus Anti-Life. Those who would remove or willfully abandon that choice are servants of Anti-Life. This is something later writers have dropped or obfuscated (particularly Jim Starlin, who can't resist filtering Kirby's Jewish ideas through his own lapsed-Catholic world view), but it's the conceptual spine of the Kirby stories.
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laufire · 5 months
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there are many types of people who make me roll my eyes in the red hood subreddit. MANY.
but the funniest, without a doubt, have to be the ones going "I'm Not Like Other Girls Jason Todd Fans In This Sub (those who actually like his character)" and proceed to hate on him with a passion that would make jim starlin recoil. jason antis are not gonna fuck you.
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homomenhommes · 6 months
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THIS DAY IN GAY HISTORY
based on: The White Crane Institute's 'Gay Wisdom', Gay Birthdays, Gay For Today, Famous GLBT, glbt-Gay Encylopedia, Today in Gay History, Wikipedia, and more …
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Peisistratus rides into Athens with Athene
605 BC – On this date the Athenian benevolent tyrant Peisistratus was born (d.527 BC). Peisistratos was the son of a philosopher and teacher called Hippocrates, and was named for the Peisistratos in the Odyssey. He lowered taxes and increased Athens' economy.
According to Plutarch he was the eromenos (Greek for "young lover") of the Athenian lawgiver Solon. He assisted Solon in his endeavors, and fought bravely in the battle of Salamis.
When Solon left Athens, Peisistratos became leader of the party of the Highlands (poor, rural people) in 565 BC. Peisistratos used a clever scheme, calling for bodyguards after he pretended to be attacked. Those bodyguards were composed of the people of the Highlands who had entered Athens. In 561 BC he seized the Acropolis with this group of bodyguards, becoming ruler. His rule did not last - he was driven out by Lycurgis, Megacles and others from the party of the Coast within the year. He returned 10 years later (in legend, with Athene at his side), regained power and reigned for 23 years until his death in 527 BC.
During his reign, many temples were built and he encouraged poets and artists by welcoming them into his court. According to a story first mentioned by the Latin author Cicero, Peisistratus ordered the writing down of the Iliad and Odyssey of Homer, which had previously been transmitted orally.
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1930 – The Oscar-winning Spanish-born Cuban cinematographer Néstor Almendros, was born on this date (d.1992). Born in Barcelona, Spain, Almendros moved to Cuba at age 18 to join his exiled anti-Franco father. In Havana, he founded a cinema club and wrote film reviews. Then he went on to study in Rome at the Centro Sperimentale di Cinematografia. He directed six shorts in Cuba and two in New York. After the 1959 Cuban Revolution, he returned and made several documentaries for the Castro regime. But after two of his shorts (Gente En La Playa and La Tumba Francesa) were banned, he moved to Paris. There he became the favorite of Éric Rohmer and François Truffaut. In 1978, he started his Hollywood career, and won the Academy Award for Best Cinematography for the film Days of Heaven. Four years later he was nominated again by the Academy for his work on Sophie's Choice.
In his later years, Almendros co-directed two documentaries about the human rights situation in Cuba: Mauvaise Conduite (about the persecution of Gay people) and Nobody Listened (about the arrest, imprisonment, and torture of former comrades of Fidel Castro). He shot several prestigious advertisements for Giorgio Armani and Calvin Klein.
In 1992, Néstor Almendros died of AIDS in New York at age 61. Human Rights Watch International has named an award after him, given every year at the HRWI film festival.
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1951 – P. Craig Russell is an American comics artist, writer, and illustrator. His work has won multiple Harvey and Eisner Awards. Russell was the first mainstream comic book creator to come out as openly gay.
Philip Craig Russell was born in Wellsville, Ohio. He entered the comics industry in 1972 as an assistant to Dan Adkins. Russell first became well known with his 11-issue Amazing Adventures run and subsequent graphic novel featuring Killraven, hero of a future version of H. G. Wells' The War of the Worlds, collaborating with writer Don McGregor. Comics historian Peter Sanderson wrote that, "McGregor's finest artistic collaborator on the series was P. Craig Russell, whose sensitive, elaborate artwork, evocative of Art Nouveau illustration, gave the landscape of Killraven's America a nostalgic, pastoral feel, and the Martian architecture the look of futuristic castles." At DC Comics, Russell inked Batman stories in Batman Family and Detective Comics over the pencils of Michael Golden and Jim Starlin respectively.
Withdrawing for a while from mainstream comics, Russell produced several experimental strips, many of which were later published in his Night Music series and Epic Illustrated.
In 1984, Russell began Night Music, an ongoing anthology series for Eclipse Comics featuring some of his most heralded literary and operatic adaptations. Russell has previously used the same title for a black and white collection of the earliest of these works, published by Eclipse Comics. Included in this series was "The King's Ankus," adapted from Rudyard Kipling's Jungle Book. Russell had previously inked several Jungle Book adaptations drawn by Gil Kane, published in Marvel Fanfare #8-11 (May-Nov. 1983). The series included "Pelleas & Melisande," adapted from Maurice Maeterlinck's play of the same name which had been turned into an opera by Claude Debussy, and "Salome" adapted from Oscar Wilde's play of the same name which was the basis for Richard Strauss's opera. Opera would continue to resurface in Russell's work, including a four-part adaptation of The Magic Flute, taken from Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart's opera.
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Hysén speaks at Stockholm Pride
1959 – Glenn Hysén, born in Gothenburg, Sweden, is a football manager and former player who played for leading Dutch, Italian and English clubs and won 68 caps for Sweden. He is also a reality television star, coach, and football commentator.
Hysén is the father of Tobias Hysén of IFK Göteborg, Alexander Hysén of GIF Sundsvall, and Anton Hysén of Utsiktens BK.
At Frankfurt Airport in 2001, Hysén attacked a man who had groped him while in the public restroom. In 2007, Hysén spoke at Stockholm Pride, the largest gay pride festival in the Nordic region. Many people from the gay community were surprised due to the earlier incident. At the Stockholm Pride, he delivered a speech denouncing sports homophobia and laid to rest his 2001 airport incident.
He stated that,
"I know that many LGBT people have been the victims of assaults and hate crimes. I can therefore understand if some people have been upset by the airport incident, so I want to be clear: I think that it is completely unacceptable that anybody should be subjected to assaults, insults or hate crimes due to their sexual orientation or gender identity ...The incident had been blown out of proportion in the media...In order to finally flush the Frankfurt Airport punch down the toilet: it is not the case that I beat up a gay person. I categorically deny that ...I'm not proud that I took a swing at him, but I am proud that I have integrity and that I reacted."
In the same speech he asked "How easy would it be for a sixteen-year-old boy who plays football to come out as gay to his team mates?" In March 2011, his youngest son, Anton Hysén, a professional footballer himself, came out of the closet to the media.
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1966 – on this date the Belgian ice-skater and singer Geert Blanchard was born. He was the first gay Belgian sports-man who came out publicly.
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thekillingvote · 8 months
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Excerpted introduction from "72 Votes: Theorizing the Scapegoat Sidekick in Batman: A Death in the Family" by Kwasu Tembo, essay collected in The Detective's Companion in Crime Fiction: A Study in Sidekicks
Introduction: 1–900s and Crowbars
There has been surprisingly little scholarly attention paid towards the death of arguably the most famous sidekick in comic book history—Batman’s companion, Robin. Although Dick Grayson is the most famous iteration of Robin, Jason Todd represents perhaps the most editorially and commercially problematic holder of the mantle. In Jim Starlin and Jim Aparo’s 1988–1989 Batman story arc, A Death in the Family (here-after ADITF), the then Robin (Jason Todd) is captured by the Joker and near-fatally bludgeoned with a crowbar. Left lying unconscious in a pool of his own blood, the Joker abandons Jason in a warehouse rigged to explode via delayed detonation. Perhaps the most unique aspect of this arc is that, unlike the death of Maxwell Lord at the hands of Wonder Woman, Superman’s ‘death’ at the hands of Doomsday, or Supergirl’s death at the hands of the Anti-Monitor, the death of Jason Todd was not purely an executive decision. Jason did not enjoy the widespread popularity of his predecessor in the Robin role, Dick Grayson, and DC Comics and then Batman editor Dennis O’Neil later observed that, since ‘letters and conversations with fans indicated that few admired [Jason], many were indifferent to him, and a substantial number hated him’, it was better to ‘let the reader decide Jason’s fate’, instead of making a concerted editorial decision requiring redrafting the character (O’Neil 1993: 4). In order to do this, DC Comics set up two 1–900 number 50-cent hotlines which gave callers the ability to vote in favour of or against his death—thus generating publicity for the Batman title while also potentially ridding the comic of an unpopular character. Over 10,000 votes were cast. The final results of the vote were 5343 for and 5271 against, and Jason’s fate was sealed. For all intents and purposes this arc, which received substantial mass media attention (and some criticism), appeared to be tantamount to a public execution. But, as I will argue, it can be more thoroughly understood as a complex form of scapegoating.
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adamwarlock · 2 years
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what's your favorite era (appearance, characterization, etc.) of adam warlock? you're like the #1 fan of adam warlock 😍👌
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This is no joke anon I'm incapable of being normal about Him.
My favorite comic Ever of All Time is the classic 70's Warlock by Jim Starlin!!! What is there to say about it even it's simply THE quintessential Adam Warlock story and I think everyone should read it :^) it has it all... unavoidable tragedy, evil alter ego, martyrdom, blatant anti-christian allegory, catholic guilt, suicide, existentialism, nihilism, funky visuals that make it obvious it's the 70's and everyone's on drugs, the wizard of oz, clowns, shark in space, Adam/Soul Gem OTP, first appearance of The Magus, Adam's first time meeting Pip/Gamora/Thanos, Thanos killing Adam, Adam killing Thanos, Adam and Thanos kissing in a tree (ok I made this last one up) etc.
Also Adam's perfectly coiffed hair + sideboob/bootyshorts look goes hard as hell I refuse to hear otherwise.
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My other fave looks <3 Counter-Earth + Infinity Gauntlet/Infinity Watch/Infinity Crusade
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I like Roy Thomas/Mike Friedrich's baby Warlock, he's cute, but Jim Starlin's Adam is the most specialest boy in the whole universe I LOOOOVE HIM with my whole heart and everything Starlin has written with Adam and/or Thanos is near and dear to me.
I think there's at least something to like about every "era", I love the Magus, I love the Goddess, Adam's big queer gender self-discovery adventure is definitely a highlight, I LOVE the Infinity Watch... I am admittedly a bit of a Jim Starlin purist though, Adam (and Thanos) written by other people always just feels a bit off and ranges from ''bad'' to ''pretty good'' but I'm fond of Annihilation/GOTG Adam by DnA too.
Definitely though my BIG FAVE era besides Warlock is the combined last two trilogies by Starlin, Thanos Annual + Infinity Revelation/Relativity/Finale & Infinity Siblings/Conflict/Ending + Infinity Entity + Thanos vs Hulk + GOTG: Mother Entropy. I know that's a lot but it counts as one in my head lol.
Best comics ever actually, I was already obsessed with Adam and Thanos beforehand but these really irreversibly rewired my brain so there's no hope for me anymore. For context you must understand that by the time these books started rolling out Starlin hadn't written for Marvel in a decade with no sign of returning so I lost my fucking shit when they were announced lmao. I had already accepted that we wouldn't get any proper sendoff/conclusion to Thanos and Adam's character arcs after some 40 years of slowburn because that's just the nature of comics but!! WE DID!!! Starlin came back and gave them an actual ending, he tied up his version of these characters with a nice little bow, while it's obviously still left open for other writers it frankly doesn't really matter to me what anyone else does with them going forward because I'm satisfied with the story that's already (almost) entirely contained within Starlin's work. Not that I won't still complain if they're terribly ooc but that's not My Canon, you know.
Like. I would sit here with my tinfoil hat on and conspiracy theory board out connecting the dots and yelling about the growth between Adam and Thanos and the overarching themes/motifs... Just endlessly speculating on how this tentative friendship of theirs would even work since we hadn't actually gotten to see it in action since they Officially became Friends™ in the very last issue Starlin wrote before leaving Marvel for 10 years and no other writer wanted to touch them. Big thoughts about how it's all REALLY about loneliness and love and TRUST and redemption, how Thanos is desperately in love with completely obsessed with Adam, how Adam in many ways mirrors Mistress Death, how perpetually aloof Thanos learns to genuinely and wholeheartedly trust in Adam and how opening himself up to the living (Adam/Eros/Gamora/Pip) gives his life true meaning, how Adam and Thanos literally cannot exist without each other or they'll self destruct... THEN my guy my dude my very bestest pal Jimbo strolled in and casually validated all my inside brain thoughts by further expanding on the pre-established themes and making all that more explicitly canon and I just had to grin and bear it and pretend I'm normal. like???? HELLO????? IT FEELS SOOOOO GOOD TO BE RIGHT ABOUT LITERALLY EVERYTHING
The juxtaposition between these books and his older work (Warlock in particular) is actually so satisfying to me too. The numerous callbacks, echoes of past storylines, the role reversals... I know some people hate how repetitive Starlin's storylines can be but I love the consistency, this infinite loop of death/rebirth that Adam and Thanos are stuck in narratively really highlights how they change (or don't change) over time, it works perfectly for them both in text and metatextually. The becoming God and blowing up the universe for the 50th time doesn't matter it's about the friend(s) we made along the way.
Anyway. I've actually grown to really like Adam's outfit in these books too, it's very old school but I'm into that... a glorious return to pointy shoulders <3 (he matches with Thanos hehehehe)
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Okay that's all. He is my special little princess.
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marvelman901 · 2 years
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ISAAC (Integral Synaptic Anti-Anionic Computer) . ISAAC was the Artificial Intelligence computer that ran Titan. . 1st - 4th slide is from the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe v3 2 (1990) by Keith Pollard and Josef Rubinstein. 5th and 6th slide is from Captain Marvel vol 1 32 (1974) by Jim Starlin and Dan Green. . #marvel #captainmarvel #isaac #titan #90s #70s #kree #computer #ai #jimstarlin #dangreen https://www.instagram.com/p/CdB6XlxsuAa/?igshid=NGJjMDIxMWI=
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wanderingmind867 · 15 days
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The fact that I don't think there's much fanart of Captain Marvel/Shazam and Captain Marvel/Mar-Vell of the Kree is a shame. Both characters honestly deserved better. Shazam deserved not to be sold to DC because DC was petty and accused it of plagiarism, and Mar-Vell didn't deserve to die because Jim Starlin was going through some stuff and needed a punching bag. Can we let these two just share a drink? Or maybe not a drink, since Billy Batson is a kid. Whatever. Let Mar-Vell, Billy Batson and maybe Rick Jones all have a little hangout session. They all deserve it. And as is usual when I remember Jim Starlin killed two characters at two companies within 10 years (Mar-Vell and Jason Todd), I want to write that man a piece of hate mail. Or at least imagine those two characters punching him.Screw you, Jim Starlin.
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5-7-9 · 2 days
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keeping track of the timeline of my deep dive. WARNING!!! Triggers include a fuck ton of homophobic stereotypes
Starting with the writer that hated Jason so much (Jim Starlin) that he made him more unlikable in his run in 1987 after being forced to write Jason on Neil’s behalf, first establishing the idea of Jason being an aggressive brat with anti-poverty concepts of an addicted mother and an abusive father. According to Denny O’ Neil’s perspective of fans, it worked. It was also right after the time of Frank Miller’s darker edgy version of Batman gained popularity. Jason was a symbol of that child audience, which Starlin did not want.
Starlin takes inspiration of Miller’s The Dark Knight Returns from 1986, using the plotline where Joker murders Jason and putting it into his story Death In The Family from 1988. Very unoriginal. So let’s see why Miller made Joker kill Jason.
Frank FUCKING Miller says “-Joker isn’t insane so much as satanic.” And then has the NERVE to say if he’d have casted anyone to play Joker in the Dark Knight Returns movie, he’d let it be DAVID FUCKING BOWIE?!?!? In his words, because he believes DAVID BOWIE is capable of great menace?!?!??!??!! David Bowie? The queer icon that came out in 1972? Oh hmmmm I wonder why he’d think DAVID BOWIE is a menace.
I’d like to remind people that Miller has explicitly stated Joker as “a homophobic nightmare.” Very intentional queer-coding that he has admitted to. Here’s the warning part under here
There’s also a rumor that Miller wanted Joker to explicitly admit Joker raped Jason but DC pulled it out. But Miller still implied it throughout his comic.
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Wow how mysterious Joker is also implied to sexually assault Selina. It can be argued it’s not, but I wouldn’t put it past Miller’s sexist ass of all people to say so.
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After the popular revival of Jason Todd, we are now forced to have a homophobic plot point be forever immortalized in canon. Now it will never go away.
I’d also like to mention that the theory of Jason being a SA survivor is probably a reference to Joker or the HIV PSA but i don’t like how it can be argued for both at the same time. Hence why I don’t care for the theory. The theory can go fuck itself.
Not sure how much more proof i need to bring up to prove Joker killing Jason is homophobic. But that’s all for now.
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heroesriseandfall · 2 years
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Let’s go back to young Jason being that cute, funny, excited child who listens to hard rock, asks for Superman’s autograph, hates current social/justice systems, wants to do theater and get straight As, occasionally considers killing and/or pitying Harvey Dent, and kept a shelf full of books even when he lived alone with almost no other personal belongings…which is what he was before Jim Starlin the Robin Hater started writing him.
Everything I just listed comes from his canon 80s post crisis run! Let him be him again and please stop basing his entire character off a writer who publicly admitted to intentionally trying to write him unlikeable and campaigned for months to kill him off until he finally did.
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osujonesy · 2 years
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No, Thanos wasn’t “right.” The fact that we keep having this conversation shows we need to better understand tyranny and psychology
Scratch a Thanos fan, find a Nazi. The fan support for Thanos is troubling.
Thanos was a mad Titian, bent on cruelty and domination. Nothing more. He rationalized his plan. That all. And the way he rationalized it shows us a lot about American attitudes towards tyranny. Knowing something about Jim Starlin’s roots for the character, which are grounded in psychology, can help. After Infinity War and Endgame, a certain segment of MCU fans began to argue that Thanos was…
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davidmann95 · 3 years
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Today, I just discovered that Jim Starlin thinks Jews are lizard people and this actually made it into a comic he wrote for Marvel.
After a search I cannot find anything even slightly or apocryphally corroborating this claim anywhere.
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thattimdrakeguy · 3 years
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What I meant is, headcanons generally suck. But it's especially bad with Jason, and yes, a lot of it's batcest shippers, but in general people don't understand anything about Jason. (Jim Starlin didn't like writing kids fighting, for starters.)
Like how a lot of headcanons are pretty much just to soften Jason up cause they liked the retconned filled Rebirth Jason (Rebirth started really good, but then they started just blatantly doing inaccurate stuff with Jason and it lost all points with me), or because they feel weird about having their favorite be a leather clad anti-hero that murders people.
Cause fandom made their own mentality that their favorite character shouldn't be not mostly morally correct in their actions, cause somehow that's an issue, or they fear people will think lesser than that, and some will cause they're stupid.
And ya know, they want a more dateable Jason I guess idk.
Some wanna really make him like a real softie, some cause they think he was only a good student, that loved education--and not a nuanced character that was actually effected by being on the streets while not being a one-note annoyance like how some act.
I don't feel comfortable defending Jim Starlings choice to purposely depict a child's death in the most shocking way possible. But I will defend that, despite popular assumption, and his own dislike of child crime-fighters, he did write a very interesting Jason that actually continued what was shown by who wrote his origin.
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(For the record, as far as my memory goes, that wasn't a soft protect me. I'm saying that cause I know someone will read it that way.)
Like he portrayed Bruce as understanding, and gave Jason a reason to act out. And even after that moment he's still shown as being a pretty bright kid. They didn't just go "AH HE'S EVILLL".
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Jason has so many misconceptions about them, and it's not helped by nearly all of his writers not giving a dang.
Like some will go 'Well, towards the end he's shown as just a nuisance." and maybe in Death in the Family, but not in-general.
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They show him working out, developing himself further, they were giving him a more distinct look so he wasn't literally just golden age Dick Grayson, he showed weakness and insecurity.
I weirdly liked Jason more after reading his Robin run, and I already liked him, but he was portrayed as a complicated character that I could see having very interesting stories.
But generally speaking, fandoms aren't good at nuance. So they just flatten stuff and confuse everyone new trying to get into it--which stinks. And comics also suck when the proper attention and care isn't put in.
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