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kittycat-in-the-dark · 9 months

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Why i think it is kinda frustrating to love the character of Jason Todd (or just any dc comics character at this point) - coming from a fan

VERY IMPORTANT WARNING: because i like Jason Todd this is gonna be mainly about him. I am gonna discuss certain things in canon and fanon about him that at this point are so tiring, and i just want to rant about them. Also, opinions that you might or might not agree with (lol). So, here comes my rant:

The Mess that is Canon and why it gives me headaches

So, we all know our dearest DC comics, and what a pain they can be. They love being inconsistent, because writers love to write wtv they want while ignoring stuff that came before, change or outright erase characters over night just because "they have their own vision in mind", ruining characters by practicing sexism, racism, classism, all -ism there are, on those characters and through other characters - because why not? And so, most of the times when a character goes to one writer to another it feels like some really do decide to keep their worse traits and add to them and ignore the actual interesting things about that/those character(s) that could make for some more interesting stories and character development. (And i know that most of the inconsistency is not just the fault, or even at all, of the writers, because that is more an issue caused by higher-ups and the decisions and limitations they put on their writers. But, that doesn't mean that writers cannot do better in the writing department, like plenty of writers and creatives have consistently done amazing things even under limitations, actually limitations sometimes showed to be helpful in challenging the creativity of artists,,... thou, i still think that DC needs to give their writers a basic sheet with info on the characters and make their current writers read/get familiar with previous characterization of the characters, at least a bit because this inconsistency is so annoying... also, you guys are supposed to be professionals in writing, like??)

Now let's see what certain writers decided to do with Jason, as an example, i guess, also because i know the most about him. Sorry for still being behind on other characters, aaaaa. So bare with me, please...

Decided to guide him to his death instead of continuing to expand on how Jay could heal from his childhood trauma, deal with his emotions and grow into being a better person and hero:

Jim Starlin (one of the writers of Batman comics in Post-crisis) decided to take the sweet boy that loves his family, that has anger issues from his past trauma, but that still did his best to help people and has very resourceful, and decided to completely focus on just how angry he was and the "tragic destiny that always awaited for him", especially because he also somehow deserves it -> which is, unfortunately, something that is made even worse in the New-52 and Rebirth. There is just this over insistence that because Jason was angry in certain situations, that he is and always was "broken" or "improper", and stuck on a never-ending cycle of violence. And in recent comics, every time young Jason Todd is brought up (in discussions, flashbacks and stories happening in his time as Robin) more often than not, the writers decide to put too much focus on Jason's more negative traits related to his anger and arrogance (about this last one, i, personally, don't think he was originally. Like yes, he could be too reckless sometimes and disobey orders from Batman and stuff, but which Robin didn't... also Jason was actually pretty well behaved for the most part of his Post-crisis Robin time).

But ya, this is also generally a problem, that DC still practices to this day, with Jason, Damian, and other sidekick or kid characters. I even remember seeing a post/article about the departments in DC, especially the Batman comics one, having writers or superiors, that didn't like and outright hated the concept of Robin, they wanted to get rid of Dick Grayson at first, but fortunatly Dick was moved to another department when he became a full time Titan and going on his own adventures completely separate from Batman. This is also why Dick is not that present during Jason's years as Robin... which kinda sucks. Like yes, Dick having his development and building his own team and new hero identity outside Robin, Batman and Gotham was great and all, but it's so stupid and frustrating that the actual reason Dick wasn’t a present brother was because of executive stuff going on at DC rather than that much of an in-universe and character reasons - like, i get that it can be justified by "Dick and Bruce were still going through their issues from spliting up and Dick had his own responsibilities as a solo hero and team leader" - but it wouldn't have been impossible to at least have Dick visit Alfred and Jason more than he did in canon, or show him and Jay having or keeping contact more after their first meeting, or even better, let Jason hang out and get closer to the Titans more, so he can spend more time with his new brother and make hero friends of or closer to his age... i mean, there were some panels that showed, for example, Jason and Dick skiing and Jay going on like 2 missions with the Titans, but it would have been awesome if Jay actually got to build closer relationships with them.

Also, from what i understood, many weren't happy with the introduction of a new Robin... plus Jay was Robin in the comics for just 1 year in real world time (from 1987 to 1988 -> yes, i am not joking... the most known and nowadays canon version of Jason, aka from Post-crisis, was Robin for just a year, the other 4 years of being Robin, aka from 1983 to 1986, was with Pre-crisis Jason that was basically Dick 2.0., and that doesn't even make part of the main continuity, as we know it*) and in Universe he was Robin for about 3 years (he was 12 when he met Bruce and died at 15), and considering that most stories during this time were more focused on Bruce/Batman and on the villain of the week type stories, Jay really didn't get that much character exploration before dying. Which kinda sucks...

*a little note about this: so, in 2022-2023 the Dark Crisis event happened, which apparently restored Pre-crisis as being part of canon, which makes no sense considering that Pre-crisis Jason Todd and Post-crisis Jason Todd are completely different, but ya DC doing DC stuff like usual, uffff - but, i still think that the "main/real" Robin Jason is the one from Post-crisis

Thou, even if A Death in the Family kinda started the way of depicting Robin Jason as too angry and violent, i don't think that the way the conflict was depicted between Bruce and Jason is as bad as it is depicted in recent comics - because it was more about Jason and Bruce respectively missunderstanding each other's side. That being that Jason probably saw being benched as a "step" to be fired like Dick was, or that Bruce thought that he wasn’t good enough to be Robin and that his place as Bruce's son, probably, wasn’t "so secure",, while on the other side, Bruce just wanted to bench Jason from Robin because he was indeed becoming too reckless and violent in the field, so he was worried that his son would hurt himself. So, i think it's important to understand that this story, despite it's many problems, at least tried to be more balanced and "realistic"/genuine with the conflict between the characters. But the thing with the "destined to die and to live in violence" still is kinda shitty, because again, it is leaning into the idea that Jason deserved this, even if everything that happened in this story happened mainly because of miscomunication between Jason and Bruce, and DC not giving the chance for Jay to take another path.

The "voting for Jason to die" thing:

Okay, i am gonna be honest with that idk much about this subject. But i remember reading an article and posts were it is claimed that the vote might have been rigged because a lot of people at the time in DC wanted to get rid of Jason and because, well, the call type vote must have been kind of a mess when it happened through the phone back in the 80s. Plus it is also believed that the people that were able to vote, voted for Jason to die probably mostly to see if DC would really do it, ya know just for the fun of it and to see if DC really had the balls to do it, which many seemed to actually be doubting. So ya... but either way, the fact that people at DC thought about this, is kinda weird and unfair imo, because Jay, like i said before, wasn’t even given the chance to developed or to build a different path other than one filled with tragedy and violence...

The erasure and non-erasure of Sheila Haywood:

As we all already know, the actual reason why Jason died was that he tried to save his mother from the Joker, when he discovered that she was working for him. The problem with this arrives when DC always choose to frame it as "Jason died because of his recklessness and disregard for Bruce's authority when he told Jason to stay put". And the problem with this is that it makes it seem like DC doesn't even consider how a kid in Jason's situation might feel and act and that the fault wasn’t his or his temper's or wtv that he died, as much as it was the betrayal of his mother and Batman literally leaving Jason behind, when he could've and should've taken his son with him to do the rescue and to make sure Jay and Sheila would be save. And especially considering that Bruce was aware that Jason can be quite stubborn and reckless, and that he must really wish to save his mom more than anything, that, logically, Jay would've gone for his mother no matter what Bruce said or how he promissed that he would save Sheila. Also, Batman and Robin are supposed to be partners,, how did Bruce think that with such an important and personal mission for Jason that the kid would just stay on the side lines and wait for Bruce to do something. Also the fact that, somehow... huh, Jason made it to the warehouse way before Bruce did, even if he went for it way before Jason, like?? - but either way, 80s writing used to be weird and stuff, but when it comes to A Death in the Family, many people pointed out that the writing makes almost no sense and it is quite goofy with a lot of things, despite supposedly being a monumental story considering that this is the first time a sidekick dies and stays dead, and in such a tragic way... also that shit is so goofy that it ended with Joker as an Middle East Ambassador or wtv... so ya. Too stupid even by "silly simple fun superhero stories of the 80s" standards.

But the problem, like the title of this point sugests, is that some writers in more modern comics, aka Post-crisis from the 2000s, New-52 and Rebirth, decided to outright erase Sheila from the equation. Which takes away from a relatable and sympathetic factor that lead Jason to his tragic end, and instead focus on just how reckless, stubborn and angry Jason is, and that was what killed him. Also, that now, the reason he got involved with Joker was not because it happened that his mom that he wanted to meet and save was working for Joker but that Jay had a very deep insecurity about himself as Robin and Bruce's son and so he just decided to go after Joker impulsively in order to impress Bruce by stopping and capturing him on his own, which ya... way to ruin it guys... like yes, it can be said that Jay went to Ethiopia looking for his mom originally because he and Bruce were having problems, after all Jay did find out about his mom and decided to leave when he heard Bruce and Alfred discuss to bench him from Robin because he was too violent and reckless in some recent cases, more notably the Garzonas one, and so it makes sense that Jay would kinda associate not being a good enough Robin as not being a good enough of a son for Bruce, and thus motivating him to look for his mom when he, basically accidently/by chance, learned that he has a biological mother that is alive and well, and that might want to have him back as a son.

And then, you have writers that, after others chose to erase Sheila completely (like they did in the New-52), decided to write that the reason Jay died was because of trying to save Sheila, like that line Jay says in Task Force Z, "I died trying to save someone I love.", and it creates this annoying back and forth with this fact... like, erasing and/or bringing a character or their importance to the story or the main characters' development is a big deal, and DC writers just played with Sheila around like randomly throwing the ball to see if it lands on the "Sheila exist this week" or on the "Sheila doesn't actually exist the next week or ever did" side of the field.

Being weird about Jay's relationship with Talia because the writer (aka Judd Winick) wanted to be experimental and that Talia and Jay having "just sex" is not a big deal because it's normal for people to just have sex, the context be damned (also the consequences this could bring in how people view Talia's character):

i don't think i need to elaborate on this more than i already did...

The writer of UTRH (Judd Winick again) went too far while depicting Jason's violence:

Okay, before you go at me for shitting on the writing of a writer that is considered to be the best Jason Todd writer, i have to say that he did some interesting and fun things with Jay, but also paired up with a lot of stuff that contributed to a worse perception of Jason's character and falling further into the "Jason was always destined to be violent and murder-y" hole. Like, he even added more to Jason's time as Robin, but only decided to focus on the more negative parts of it, and while i can understand that he probably wanted to put Jason's flaws and conflict with Bruce at center stage for his return as the villain Red Hood, i think he kinda started the trend of refering to Jay as always being the "Angry Robin" and that everytime there is a flashback with Robin Jason since then it is always about his anger and nothing else. Also, i feel like he kinda forgot to show Jason caring about innocents, aka women and children, while writing this, which is kinda weird considering that he did show that side of Jay in Lost Days...

From the Titans Tower fight till the end of Post-crisis Jason's writing was a complete mess:

i feel like DC reached a point by this time where they had no clue what to do with Jason (and nowadays they are still at this point and have been in it since then, if we are being honest). They decided to either make Jason a total nut case full on villain that hurts a lot of people for no good reason and at the same time have stories were he is an ally to the Heroes and where he does the right thing, even if he is still a bad guy. And the thing is: if DC really wanted to make Jay an anti-hero that walked a grey line where he sometimes did his own selfish desires and still antagonized certain heroes he thinks he has a bone to pick with (like Batman and Nightwing), but that still gave a shit about innocents and would help people even when aligned with villains, they could have but they kinda didn't. Like, i know it's a very cut and dry definition of an anti-hero, but like, comics are stacked full with over used tropes and have created some themselves, and with this Jason could be a more interesting story element everytime he popped up because the readers and the heroes would never know if to expect Jason to be against them or helping them. Plus, they could advance from this by developing him from a more "villainous anti-hero" to a more "heroic anti-hero", and doing so by touching/going on Jason's roots as Robin and what made Jason the happy hopeful kid that loved to help people. But no,,,, they decided to do a complete mess!! DC, why... thou, i kinda feel like this transition of Jason from a more "villainous anti-hero" to a more "heroic anti-hero" didn't happen properly for the same reason Jason became more violent and angry as Robin didn't work that well/felt rushed, and that was because this was made in a short time limit. Because, like Starlin wanted to get to the "fated death of Robin because of his issues" as quick as possible, Post-crisis Red Hood Jason seemed (imo) to suffer from this as well, because Post-crisis (as a continuity/timeline) was ending, the next big retconning event was approaching in DC comics,,, like heck, even the story of UTRH was interrupted sometimes because of a timeline/universe altering event... and then the One Year Later event happened, and Jay seemed to have become "more crazy that ever", and the heroic parts that Jason still had were discarded completely. Which tbh i wasn’t a big fan of, at all. So, Jay ended his Post-crisis story as a full on "deranged villain".

RHATO is a BIG mess; YES, unfortunatly, i mean both of them, maybe exept for the first 25 issues of RHATO (2016) - why did DC have to give Jason's main books to Scott Lobdell?! Also, those first 25 issues of RHATO (2016) are kind of a miracle, all things considered:

So... RHATO (2011) was basically Jason's first big "going on his own with a team in stories non-related to Batman"... and it was awful. Because well, DC decided to make Jason, Roy Harper and Koriand'r aka Red Hood, Arsenal and Starfire the Outlaws, and write them completely out of character. Which ya, pissed off/annoyed a lot of fans... and these are the main reasons why (i think, might have missed some thou, but this serve enough to make a point against this book):

First off, it makes no sense for Roy and Kori to agree to Jason's methods and philosophy, so question: why would they join/form the Outlaws and with Jay as the leader?

Why is Jay the leader when he was no previous leading experience at this point, while both Kori and Roy do?

Why tf was Roy made dumb and Kori into an eye candy character, while being stripped off of their inteligence and kindness respectively?

Why are 2 of Dick Grayson's closests friends, one of which is also an ex-lover, hanging out with his little brother, considering that when those best friends first met that brother they were already adults, and Roy even had his daughter Lian, when Jay was just 12?

General answer: the writer decide to say fuck you to anything and build what could be considered a "male power fantasy" through Jason, also sexism, so he ended up ruining everything and everyone.

Long, more specific to each question answers:

Kori and Roy were "given to Jason" as his teammates and friends and made "more violent and outcasted" from their previous teams and friends/family because DC rebranded with the New-52 and wanted to be more edgy and had no idea what to do with these 2 characters so they decided to shove them together just because... and also because they had no idea what to do with Jason either, like i said previously.

Jay is the leader because "power male fantasy" for and with guys without powers, having no idea what to do with him that could be interesting, human characters in DC are often made the leaders to make up for and balance with their more powerful teammates, Jay is made the leader instead of Roy because the Bats are always up in DC's hierarchy of gets to lead the team and be the main face of the team and comic because money. Also,, look, i know it can be said that Jay, just like any other Batkid, deserved the chance to have his role and his experience as a leader, but because of his short time as Robin he didn't even get that much experience working with others or with a bigger team, besides being partners with Batman, and he never got to have a proper leader role before the Outlaws (and no, being a crime-lord doesn't count because he mostly did things solo, his partners and workers worked with him under fear or because the other option was worse than him, and also he killed the guys he worked with or that worked for him a lot... so ya, i wouldn't call that leadership experience). It really was a decision made just based on "the Bats need to be the leaders at some point of any teams we create" DC rule.

Roy was dumbed down so he wouldn't be the logical leader and because Jason needed a "dumb best friend" or something and Kori, well... the boys needed an eye candy sexy alien woman for the comic to actually be interesting... also, they threw away her kindness because she needs to be as rude and angry as her male teammates.

Also, weird as shit that they decided to give Jay Dick's best friends (or i guess ex-best friends during this time) because they were too lazy to make new friends for Jason.... also they had to ruin their established relationships because why tf not? - also why is Roy only refered to as Jay's best friend when he was/is Dick's best friend (or one of his best friends)... like?? i mean, people can have more than one best friend, but DC doesn't seem to understand that, so...

in conclusion, this book ruined everyone!! Hurray DC, that was such a great achievement *fucking insert infinite tons of sarcasm here*.

Also, to make a little note/comment about something that comes from fandom about this Outlaws Team specifically: i really really really hate that, because of this book, Jason is shipped with either Kori or Roy or with both at the same time in a poly relationship. And while, yes i get the "let them be shipped" because this is just people having fun with the characters and all that,,, no matter how they put these ships, i will always find them gross because of the reasons i mentioned above,, aka Kori and Roy were adults when they met 12-year-old Jason -> like just this alone should ring alarm bells,, Kori is Dick (Jay's brother)'s ex, which akward,, i mean, overall these relationships just give me the icky... okay?? Sorry about this little detour. Moving on from this now. i just really needed to let it out.

RHATO (2016) actually started better... a lot better. The first 25 issues are interesting and have sweet moments that i really like. i said it before, but these 3 are my favourites together, until DC decided to ruin them as well... because why not. imo, RHATO (2016) did better because, well, despite being written by the same writer of RHATO (2011), this one actually fixed some of the problems of the previous one and the character dynamics between the main 3 were pretty solid (for the first 25 issues that is..). And that is because:

Jason and Artemis have great chemistry with each other either you look at it platonicaly or romantically.

Their banter is amazing and so funny.

Love that these Outlaws, especially Artemis, are more the type of "Jason gives an order like he is the leader, but they ignore it because they have a better plan" - that doesn't mean that Jay doesn't have his own good plans/ideas but him being the "main leader" is not as cut and dry as it was in RHATO (2011).

i like that Jay is the more emotional link of the Outlaws, aka he was the one that kept at first the Outlaws together.

The relationships between Artemis, Jason and Bizarro are just so sweet - like sorry, but they make my heart go mush, okay?

i like that even if the writer tried to write a romantic relationship between Jason and Artemis, that they, and especially Artemis, didn't put that much focus on it, it was something that existed in the background while they were more worried about other things, such as their missions and taking care of Bizarro.

But, after that things became kinda bad:

By the end of issue 25, Jason was beaten by Batman because "he killed Penguin" on live television (which btw Jason didn't actually kill him) and so Bruce beat him up pretty badly, some say even worse than he beats his villains.

Thou, i will give it to the story just the fact that i think it's interesting that things for Jason went to shit the moment he decided to go on his own after Penguin without his teammates, which kinda strenghtens the fact that Jason needs someone besides him when something bad happens to him or finds out something bad (like here when he finds out Penguin was responsable for his dad's imprisonment and death).

But a big problem: making Jason's established abusive father seem as some kind of "martyr for his family", even if he actually hurt his wife and son, at the time, more than anyone else. Also, that Jason actually went for it with believing his dad was a good guy and proudly went after Penguin while claiming to be Willis's son. Like, i don't think it's that unbelievable that Jay still cared for his dad, even if he hurt him and his mom a lot, but... the writing paints Willis too much like "a good guy trying to help his family that got involved with the wrong people" while letting Jason's mom and her importance to Jason on the sidelines or outright ignored - like, i know that in Post-crisis, more specifically in A Death in the Family that Willis was refered to as "a dad that made mistakes trying to help his family", but by this point in Rebirth (and with the New-52) Willis was established clearly as having been an abusive husband and father, and more clearly than ever... so, it's kinda fucked up that at this point the writer tried to kinda "hero-fy" him because he abandoned and abused his family for "the good of his family",, like that doesn't erase all the pain he caused his wife and son, either he meant to cause it or not. Also, they brushed over the importance Catherine had in Jay's life, when she was one of the most important people to him in Post-crisis.

Then Artemis and Bizarro are "taken away" from Jason because their multidimensional spaceship hideout went out of control and transported them to another place, leaving Jason alone with a pissed off Batman that wasn't finished with beating his son up, until Roy Harper appeared to save his friend.

After this, things get worse because Jay and Bruce reunite and easily make-up, without actually solving anything, which keeps them for the rest of Rebirth continuing a never ending cicle of: "we are at odds because of our desagreements -> one of us (mostly Bruce) does or says something very fucked up which causes a big fight -> they separate again -> some shenanigans happen and they are obrigated to work together again -> forgiveness or semi-forgiveness ensues -> part ways again -> cross paths again either intentionally or by accident -> repeat cicle again.

Eventually, Artemis and Bizarro return, but their character design is worse, like way worse, especially Artemis's that is just atrocious, being that she went from a well built muscly woman with a one piece suit to the super skiny woman that looks like she doesn't have organs in her abdomen wearing a top, because why not....

The relationships and dynamics between the main trio became weird and boring. Especially between Artemis and Jason, and Bizarro kinda gets ignored until he leaves to become king of the underworld, lol. Oh, and then Jason and Artemis kiss, reach the conclusion they think of each other as brothers rather than lovers (even if they fucking kissed a lot of times at that point), and when they part ways they are both sappy because "they know that what they said to each other then is not true but cannot be together" type bullshit... and like, what?? - i am gonna be honest, at first, ya know in the first 25 miracle issues, a romantic relationship between the 2 seemed sweet and okay, i actually liked it, even if they were kinda doing the "will they, won't they" thing, and honestly, i wouldn't even have been mad if they reached the conclusion that they work better in a platonic relationship than a romantic one, even if they still have romantic feelings for each other. But not the weird ass bullshit the writer pulled with this...

And the time Jason was solo was just mediocre story after mediocre story, uffff.

So, Jay finally kinda gets his own book (even if they technically aren't, as they are team-up books, but they are the closest thing to a Jason Todd solo book as we can get...), only for both to end up being awful for the most part... if only DC gave Jason a better writer. Like, thank everything that most probably Lobdell is never gonna be his writer again, but that doesn't necessarely mean that other writers that followed did him any better.

**Also,, what is somehow even worse is that these books are the ones that popularized in fandom this idea that "everytime a character is paired up with Jason in a Hero Team, they get ruined by him", which makes the dislike for Scott Lobdell and his writing even worse because this man just managed to ruin everything!!

DC is trying to reintegrate Jason into the Batfam - which is something good and could be interesting, but there are some things that are kinda bad/tiring about how they are going about it:

In the New-52 and Rebirth, DC redeemed Jason, thou with the New-52 it was kinda weird because they didn't exactly redeem the Jason that we knew at the end of Post-crisis, but a more "tone down" version of him, since they decided to change most of the characters' backstories in this new universe. And i can understand why DC did this especially for Jason, considering that by that point Post-crisis Jason has gone a little bit too far, to suddently begin a redemption arc with all the baggage "villain" Jason had. So, they basically started over, erasing all the Post-crisis Jason stories except for UTRH, and changed his backstory. One example of one of these changes, was that they retconned Lost Days and changed that part of Jason's story to him training not just with Talia in the League of Assassins but also with the All-Caste, being that Talia guided Jason to the All-Caste to protect him from her father. And then his redemption comes when, after UTRH, instead of Jason doing all the horrible things he did by the end of Post-crisis, he started working with the Batfam sometimes, even if he still did his vigilante anti-hero business mostly alone, and even if Batman didn't aprove of it and Jay's methods, and so, this is where the "Jason is an on and off member of the Batfam" thing started. And then the redemption continued with Jay founding the Outlaws with Arsenal and Starfire, starting working more with the batkids (even if they still were at odds with each other), appeared everytime there was an emergency,etc.

But, as most know, the New-52 has a lot of writing problems, especially considering that Jay and the Outlaws have Scott Lobdell as their main writer. The thing here, that is pretty frustating, is that these ideas with Jason had the potencial to be great,, i mean i do like that Jay got to redeem himself and get closer to his family, but it feels cheap, especially because, for example, DC really thought that in order for Jason to have, at least, a good relationship with Tim, they first had to completely erase the close relationship that Tim and Dick had as brothers (and don't get me started on Cass and what they did do her during this time)... because why not? i guess the Batkids are only allowed to get along with one sibling at a time now,, especially considering that the New-52 was the one that started the idea in fandom that Jason is Tim's favourite and Damian is Dick's favourite, and so Dick and Tim's brothers relationship is left in the wind to be obliterated.

And then, DC rebooted again, and continued with the redemption path for Jason in Rebirth, which was, like i said before, interesting, but then they kinda ruined it. Also, both in the New-52 and part of Rebirth Jason suffered from this limbo of "being or not being part of the family". And is especially frustating with the ever repetitive conflict that Jason and Bruce have. Like,, it does have some good moments and ideas, but the problem is that after a while they kinda become pretty repetitive with each story of Rebirth.... so, like, it would be nice if DC did something more to advance their characters' development and relationships, just saying... also, so much wasted potential with most of the ideas they bring up,, DC why don't you go with your ideas to the fullest instead of constantly keeping your characters in some kind of limbo, uffff.

Robin Jason flashbacks from the New-52 and Rebirth always being under the shadow of his death:

So, i did mention this in passing before, aka that i am tired of seeing DC canon in more recent comics only show Robin Jason as angry and violent. But the thing is,, i don't think they shouldn't show angry Robin Jason at all, they can obviously show that. But the problem is that they never focus on any other characteristics of Robin Jason. Like, even if the kid was angry and violent, that wasn't all that he was, he was also happy, he was also sad, he was also insecure, he also loved his family a lot,,, plus he wasn't angry just because of "teen angst" or "teen disagreements with Bruce", he was angry because of the injustices he and his parents went through and that other people keep going through in Gotham City. And i think it's also obvious at this point that Jason's anger and violent actions were just a protection mechanism he developed to protect himself on the streets and from his trauma. So like, DC should really tone down on bringing up Jason's anger so much, because he is not the "angry Robin", that is not all he is or ever was. Or, ya know, at least they could stop acting as if Jason being angry is just "senseless"/exaggerated.

And we all know at this point that DC does these "angry and violent Robin Jason" flashbacks because they always write with Jay's tragic ending in mind. Everything about Jason since he died, is about his death and only that, even if he has a lot of other more interesting things to explore and deal with than the trauma from his death and his shitty relationship with Bruce.

Jason just cannot have or keep close positive relationships:

It's just the fact that DC really has a problem in establishing Jay into some closer and definitive relationships, other than always having a "up and down" relationship with Bruce. Like, the Outlaws (aside from being ruined by writing), after they decide to eventually separate their ways, aren't put together anymore, for better or for worse, with the Batkids it's just the "we check on you only when something happens and we need your help or there is the possibility that you are going to go too far on a solo mission, aka if you go back into your killing and violence". And for the rest, even including his Robin years, he is mostly isolated from other people, especially people that belong to "his group" aka people of his age, background, generation, with same philosophy, etc. Just like,, why is this boy so alone,, wasn’t he suffered enough on his own?

Fandom also gives me a headache sometimes

Jason being either a feminist or a misogynist:

I am gonna be direct and say that the "Jason is misogynistic because he hurt Mia Dearden/other girls or women" and "Jason always drinks his respect women juice" crowds are weird and make no sense. And also kinda wrong (imo)... and why do i say this...

Well, the "Jason is a feminist/drinks his respect women juice" belief comes from the fact that Jay, at least as Robin, tended to get defensive of women when they were insulted and/or abused, especially when they were so by men, and because of the love he was for both his moms and the relationship and respect he has for Talia. Now, the thing is, this and other examples such as "how he showed respect for Onyx in UTRH because he worked with her and didn't underestimate her as an opponent, and helped her after he incapacitated her", isn't necessarely feminist, i would mostly call it respectively basic respect for other people, caring about vulnerable women because he is a good kid and a hero and because situations where women are suffering at the hands of men bring up his trauma from growing up with an abusive dad that especially hurt his mom, and not underestimating any opponent you come accross because in vigilantism and the world they live in anyone and anything can be quite dangerous if you are unprepared. So, in other words, Jay is a decent human being (even at his worst) that cares about the well being of others, especially people in vulnerable groups such as abused women, but he doesn't have any beliefs or actions that, imo, "make him feminist". Or an outstanding feminist, especially when other characters, that are both heroes and villains, have shown this type of behaviour towards women. Thou,, and i am about to kinda contradict myself,, just reading Jason's Post-crisis stories until UTRH, saying that Jason is a feminist/cares about women being hurt by men is valid, and especially as he is shown to have empathy towards the victims he encounters,, and even more than Bruce was ever shown to have to this type of victims... so that is an interesting and valid point, imo. So, it seems like a weird limbo that is somehow made worse by RHATO's writing bacause ya know, Lobdell,... but ya, i don't think calling Jason a feminist is that wrong either, maybe it depends on the writing you pick, because, ya know, he really has inconsistent writing (the pain of loving Jason Todd T-T).

The "Jason is a misogynist" side believe this because Jay was had many times, especially by the end of Post-crisis when he kinda went too much off the rails in his "crazy villain persona", hurt and insulted women. Which valid, i guess, some can interpret some of his actions and statements during this time as sexist towards women... but the thing is, or actually 2:

Writers projecting their own prejudices towards women through Jason, like for example in how he behaved towards Donna in Countdown. But in that event everyone was pretty ooc, the story was very long and a mess, and Jay during this time was written as being an ass to anything and anyone, so...

Most of the times Jason fought a woman/girl it had nothing to do with them being women - actually if Jason fighting, hurting, insulting and causing trauma and/or awekening past trauma into other characters is misogynistic, then when he does it to boys/men (like he did to Bruce, Dick, Tim, Oliver, etc.), does that mean he is being a misandrist?? Like, what kind of logic is that? - what Jason is actually doing through his horrible actions is getting revenge and spreading on to others his trauma, his pain and suffering. Is he right in doing it, especially to characters he barelly knows and have nothing to do with his pain, such as Mia, Onyx and even Tim and the Titans? Fuck no! But he is not a misogynist through these actions, sorry to say this, but i really don't think he is.

Saying that Jason doesn't care about either women and/or children:

This is a tricky one... and that is because i, and many other fans for that matter, said/say that Jason doesn't necessarely have a "special care for women and children" in a sense. But like i said before he does care, a lot. And it's always nice when we have stories where he is shown doing that (Like in Urban Legends: Cheer and Task Force Z, even if these stories have other problems..), because certain writers (like Winick and Lobdell) kinda forgot about this side of Jason. Jason cares!!!! He cares!! And that is important to point out about Jason because, while, like i said before, this is not a "special/unique" characteristic of Jay like some fans make it out to be, it is important and special for just Jason as a character because he was been protrayed as uncaring, an ass and outright villain before, and, unfortunatly, that protrayal is the one that is the most present in most people's minds (mostly because of the popularity of the story UTRH). So ya, even if Jason did hurt people that didn't deserve it at all and that make part of the group of women and children, that doesn't completely erase or contradict the fact that Jason cares and wants to help (plus reasons i said before like shitty writing that makes no sense and that the people he attacked could still defend themselves or had the capacity to, so like he didn't hurt or go after civilians, ya know. Again, it doesn't justify or make it less of an evil what he did to those people, even if they are trained heroes, but it's also not something that invalidates the statement "Jason cares about people" - it's about nuance). Also,, even if i said that perhaps, by how Jay was written sometimes, that "he doesn't have a special mission in protecting women and children", he actually does, but he isn't shown doing that directly, as he is mostly shown just killing and/or beating the guys that hurt women and children,, which i think is what, paired up with him hurting characters like Mia Dearden, Tim Drake and Damian Wayne, and this hurting actually being depicted directly on panel,, leads other fans to find it "unbelievable that Jay actually gives a damn about women and children when he did this to this specific women/girls and children".

Making people that like Jason or want to defend Jason or discuss his wrong doings feel as being held at gunpoint because people aren't allowed share their opinion either against him, favouring him or even a balance of both (this applies to all fans, including Jason Todd fans, obviously):

Okay so... one thing that i noticed is that people cannot seem to be able to have civil discussions about Jason, in a way. Like, no matter what stance people take on the character, there is always someone ready to "shut you up" because they don't agree with your analysis and/or opinion on the character. Also, yes, this happens with fans of other characters too, but, for some reason, Jason is one of those characters that seems to bring up the most heated discussions in DC fandom.

Also, while yes and obviously, people are allowed to and should interact with posts they disagree with and explain why they disagree, there are some people that take it too far. And i also think this problem comes from the fact that people tend to "cherry-pick" the version of the character that they consider canon. For example, there are people that, because they prefer the stories from Post-crisis, the only valid version of the characters for them is that one, other people prefer the New-52 and/or Rebirth, or they actually prefer the headcanons version of the character because canon is too much of a mess to understand. And honestly, i think they are all valid. The problem comes when people seem to not distinguish "serious discussions, analysis and criticisms" of the actual canon and "fun post that can be either based in canon or just headcanon". Plus, not every jab a person does to a character is a serious criticism or an actual critical post about that character, sometimes they are just dumb jokes that actual fans/people that love that character do for fun. Being a fan of a character doesn't mean defending the character 24/7 or that if they make a joke on the expense of that character that they now hate them... like, we are here mostly to have fun with our favourite characters, and that includes making fun of them and their flaws as much as analyzing and defending them. And also, loving a character doesn't mean that you don't see or talk about that character's flaws and mistakes, as they are. Not everything your favourite character does was to have a moral/positive explanation, sometimes characters can just be shitty people and that is fine.

Also, i don't understand why, but some Jason Todd fans literally act as if he is the only character with bad writing, when like all characters have suffered from it. Heck, some characters even outright disapeared for decades at this point, even if they still have fans that talk and make content about them to this day.

And well, if Jay has bad writing that makes no sense for his character, so do other characters as well -> i am specifically pointing this out because sometimes people do bring up certain characters' bad actions from a certain comic where they were written by someone that seems to not know shit about the characters and made horrible decisions such as making them say something misogynist, for e.g. And some of you people really hold on, like, 3 shitty panels from a comic from 2 decades ago to prove "how bad/sexist/racist/etc" a character is, when they are completely ignoring who the writer is, if what that writer wrote makes sense with what is mostly know/established about that character, if it still applies in more recent comics with the most recent version/characterization of the character. Like, i am not saying people cannot talk about these scenes/panels and criticise/complain about them, like they can, everyone can, but first there is the need to make clear the context of the panels, who wrote it/what era is that comic from (sometimes just this explains a lot) and maybe say at the end "thank fuck they don't write that character like that anymore" or something else along those lines - because ya know context matters in this stuff and while, yes, everything that was written and published by DC comics is canon, i think it's also important to understand where the character is at now compared to that "bad writing version of them" and how this "bad version" compares to other writing from the past or same time of that specific comic. Sometimes that "bad version" is just a speck in an ocean of some pretty good or just decent writing of that character.

Jason fans seem to always be arguing and dividing themselves with black and white ideas of how Jason is, and especially on how he was as Robin:

So... just like anything and any other character fandom out there, the fans tend to also separate themselves in groups defined by what they choose to believe about a certain character. Especially with such complicated characters as the ones from comics that have like a billion versions of themselves.

When it comes to Jason, people devide themselves into very specific ways they see him, for e.g. the most known fractions are:

Robin Jason was an innocent happy boy until modern comics came and ruined it by making him angry out of nowhere (which makes no sense when Post-crisis Jason was shown "doing violence" since his introduction. i mean ya, it was in self-defence when he was scared by Batman finding him stealing his car's tires. But like,, sometimes these people act like the mere thought of Jason doing anything violent or being angry is impossible or complete character assassination when it makes sense that Jay would be phycally and emotionally protective of himself with violence and anger due to his trauma, hard time having to survive alone on the streets and dealing emotionally with all he was been through).

Robin Jason was angry and violent 24/7 (okay this is a general exaggeration, but there are people that think that Jay was mostly angry as Robin, when like during his original Post-crisis comic run he had like 4 big "anger and violence" moments and they all had understanding reasons on Jason's part to be angry and become violent with who he did).

The "the fault is on the Lazarus Pit" crowd (or just on anything and anyone else except Jason himself,, which is kinda ironic because Jason in canon, even at his worse, always took responsability for his violent actions, so...).

Jason is the big protector of women and children (i already wrote what i had to write about this).

And like, these examples and many other fractions, aren't wrong about these characterizations, because, yes, these come from canon, but, again, the problem is with people focusing solelly on one of these sets of characterization, to the point where they ignore the other parts of the character - aka they flanderize the character - which is pretty annoying tbh.

DC fans that claim that the only reason Jason is angry when he returns as the Red Hood is because of his death:

First of all, i know that some people just joke about this in the sense that "it is ridiculous that Jason is angry at the world because he died, when so many other characters have been tortured, have died and returned from the dead in the comics, and especially in DC. So, him and his trauma are not that special". And while i get where the joke comes from, and that DC's most recent writing of Jay's trauma just focusing on on his death at the hands of the Joker doesn't help it. But,, Jason's main issues and trauma don't relate that much to his death,, actually it can be argued that since he returned from the dead that he doesn't really care if he dies again. i don't think that "his greateast fear is to die again", as some seem to believe. i said it before and i will say it again,, Jason's trauma relates more to being let down by his loved ones, especially by his parental figures, feeling like he doesn't matter enough to his dad (aka Bruce) and that the systems that hurt him and continue to hurt others are still rolling and going without any significant change. (For not saying that he never, even to this day, got Justice for what Joker did to him,, which is also ironic because, ya know, Batman and DC's stories are all about Justice... i know this is more complex than this, but this is often a point that gets dismissed to a degree in discussions about Jason and why he wants revenge on the Joker and Bruce. It's not about him dying, it's about not having Justice for himself when he has a father figure that could give him that, but as we all know he didn't, at least not how Jason needed/expected it,, and the fact that Joker still keeps hurting people to this day - thou this problem also comes from the fact that for meta reasons, DC cannot kill the Joker to "give Jason some peace", because he is one of the most popular characters, villains and antagonists to Batman, so there is that).

And while, like i wrote before, people are allowed to joke about Jay "being too emotional over dying, when others have died too and haven't done what he did because of it", i think it's also important to understand that, well, that is actually an exaggeration, ya know, reducing/flanderizing Jason to just "a violent crybaby that is angry at the world just because he died", which again, gives a very reduced and wrong idea about the character to people that don't know much about him. Which is kinda ironic, imo, because sometimes the same people that either joke or seriously describe Jason like this will lose their shit on other people's joke posts about the characters they like more, so like??

Just... ya know the saying -> if you are going to joke/shit/criticise/be mad at a character at least do it about stuff they actually did and/or characteristics that are more consistently shown through out their canon writing.

There seems to be a lack of empathy (especially this one)/sympathy towards Jason coming from a meta level (writers and fans) and the in-universe people (aka characters in Jason's story)

i know that this part just by the title alone can come off as a little bit "dumb", because i am basically saying that no one understands Jason Todd,, which is ridiculous because i didn't create him and, tecnically speaking, the ones that know him the most are the people that created him, wrote him and own him, aka DC comics and their writers. Which is funny considering that for the most part of this post and most Jason Todd fans are always criticising and complaining about Jay's writing. But i think that when we say that "no one understands Jason Todd", we tend to refer more to the modern interpretations and writers of the character. Thou, when i say that other characters don't understand Jason in-universe that is totally right.

(Little note here: i am gonna come off as pretty critical of Bruce and his treatment of Jason. Though that doesn't mean that i think Bruce doesn't love his son. Also, Bruce loving Jay doesn't mean he understands his son, and him not understanding his son doesn't mean he doesn't love him. Bruce loves his son, and Jason loves his dad, they love each other a lot... the problem is them misunderstanding each other.)

So,, let's start this section by taking a step back to Post-crisis Robin Jason and keep going from there.

Jason is introduced to us and Batman as a street kid that had "...stones to rip off the Batman´s buggy--". And Jason's first response to seeing Batman is to hit him with the tire iron and run to his hideout. We see he is alone, defensive and that he misses his mother, and he is making everything he can to survive. This is also where we see Jay have a "sense of justice" or at least an understanding that, even if he also steals, there is a difference between him and other people stealing to survive and stealing for more selfish means, like Ma Gunn was doing in Jason's intro story. So, it is made very clear that Jay is not just some punk that enjoys stealing or hurting or seeing people being wronged and used, like the boys that were sent to Ma Gunn's school were (which fair, included Jason at the time, but he didn't have that much of a hard time running from her. For not saying that when he did he still thought by himself to go after her, when he could have just taken his new stolen tire and simply go home, without returning to help Batman). Then he is taken in by Bruce and he is happy being Robin and staying with Bruce for quite a while.

But... the lack of empathy already begins to show through Bruce, that doesn't seem to wrap his head around what Jason needs to heal from his trauma, and comes off more as patronizing when he "teaches Jason about how to do Justice in their Unjust world", which comes off as even worse when you think about the fact that he is telling that to a kid that was seen and lived those injustices practically since day one. And that is because Bruce cannot get out of his own vision of justice and of healing after a traumatic experience. And especially because Bruce doesn't seem to grasp that Jason's trauma is based on a lot of more difficult and traumatic moments than just having a single defining traumatic moment that changed his path in life forever in a big way, like it happened to Bruce and Dick when their parents died (i know that Bruce and Dick suffered through other traumatic events after their parents' deaths and especially as vigilantes, but the point i am trying to make is that, after becoming heroes and having dealt with their biggest trauma through finding ways to do Justice, they eventually "got used" in how to deal with current and future traumatic events, while Jason as just a 12-year-old kid went through too many traumatic things at such a very young age which compiled into his overall trauma, so it's not just dealing with one single defining moment of trauma, it's a colection of more of those from even before Jay became Robin - and that's what Bruce seemed to miss - also, that not everyone is gonna deal with their trauma, even if it is similar, the same way he did, like sometimes he really forgets that, especially when it comes to his children). But,, even with this in mind, i and others actually think that the writing here, including a little after Jay's death, was more sympathetic (at least) towards Jay's situation than next comics and writers were - and that is because at least, originally, despite Bruce lacking some understanding in how to help Jason, he actually did try with Jay and there wasn't that much villainization of Jay's behaviour, either coming from the writing or from Bruce himself,, considering that, at least, Bruce blames himself for Jason's death instead of the blame being put on Jay completely, and Bruce did try to understand and help Jay before, even if he took a while to "try to do something" and he still failed his son. Thou, there is also a disregard towards Jay's situation coming from other characters as well, such as when the Titans, that together with Bruce, would say things that compared Jason to Dick, and obviously more in the sense of "Dick was amazing, hopeful, less angry, etc., than you are as Robin", which obviously contributed to Jason's insecurities.

And while previous writing of the characters makes them "miss the mark" in understanding Jason,, which can just be seen as a character flaw and a indicator of the fact that the Heroes that existed and that Jay encountered at that time just didn't have similar experiences to Jay to make it easier to understand him and that they all were being kinda "narrow minded" because they missed when their friend, Dick, was Robin,, at least the writing of the story and certain parallels between Jason and some victims he and Bruce encountered did give some validity to how Jason feels.

Then Jay dies, the story when Bruce "beats himself" over Jason's death passes, which fine, quite valid, the characters need to move on. But... the next Post-crisis writers decided to turn Jay from a tragic and misfortunate story to a cautionary tale - and this is where the victim blaming of Jason Todd starts to happen.

So, from this point on the writing starts to look at Jason more as a failure that all young heroes need to avoid becoming. Then this is made even worse when Tim Drake comes around, as the new and cooler Robin that is also more relatable, with some comparisons and jokes made at the expense of Jason and his tragedy, which makes the perception of Jason as a failure even worse. Like, DC was really so stupid that they thought that putting emphansis on Tim's perspective on a kid that he knows next to nothing about was the best and correct way to look at Jason in their overall writing... they didn't even try in making other characters that actually knew Jason, like Dick and Bruce, correct Tim on his assumptions - and why is that?? Well, obviously, because DC really wanted to drive home to the readers that Jason was the "bad angry Robin that got himself killed because of his recklessness"... like it can even be said that Tim showed more respect to Jason's Robin memorial than he did Jason as a person. And while Tim making wrong and bad assumptions about Jay is okay, and again, something that can be seen as a character flaw to explore,, the fact that the writers just chose to reinforce Tim's vision of Jason through other characters is just so stupid and makes it look like no one really knew or even cared about Jason Todd, because they needed to focus on "Jason being the bad Robin" narrative. And again,, the fact that characters that knew and were close to Jason, aka Bruce, Alfred and Dick, didn't correct Tim and contributed, and might even given this idea since the begining to Tim viewing Jason as being too "angry and reckless" and that this is what got him killed, could have been used to explore this flawed vision of Jason that these characters had of him as something that was the result of grief, and perhaps of denial that they failed him (especially in Bruce's case that was there when Jay died)... but naw DC just decided to make everyone seem like assholes towards Jay's memory, a 15-year-old kid that died trying to save his mother (which wow, how tf did no one realize how this came accross when DC wrote and published this...).

Thou, as ironic as it might sound, after Jay digs himself out of his grave (because this poor boy can never have any rest) and spends one year in a coma and then waking up and walking catatonic through the streets of Gotham all alone for almost another year, the person that ends up showing him the most understanding is Talia al Ghul, even if at first she might have just cared about her own plans. So, she is the one that shows and gives affection to Jason, trains him and actually gives him the tools to start his path of healing, even if it is filled with more violence than ever before and revenge. And this is where Jason is finally able to "let loose" to show the world his anger towards it's injustice, where he goes after horrible people that hurt innocents and ends their torture of others once and for all, and he actually gets to show and tell Bruce and the Heroes that they failed him and that their methods might not be as good/effective as they think.

But, this is where people also start (both writers and especially readers) not liking Jason even more or to outright hating him, which fair, he did do some actions towards certain people that, no matter how you look at it, always will be wrong and outright horrible. Which might turn Jason into a little bit of an hypocrite himself, just like Bruce and other Heroes. And while it's not a problem, at all, to critique Jason’s actions when he returned as the Red Hood, this is often used to downplay or outright dismiss Jason’s pain and at least the sympathy that he should still have (or even actually have to begin with) from the writers, audience and in-universe characters. Even as he redeems himself and shows regrets about his actions that he did during his worse time, in more recent stories, people will never forget or forgive and stop holding over his character what a "horrible person he is for his mistakes", even if in the real world it was been 12 years since he started his redemption and in-universe, for a couple of years (at least around 2 years, not sure because comics timelines and ages are a mess, but for quite sometime now either way) he has been putting in the effort to respect his father's wishes and become a "better vigilante" that doesn't kill.

But either way it is put,, Jay doesn't seem to have the right to be right in any capacity anymore, to have valid reasons to still be mad but move on from it just being about his death, and going back to being about the other trauma he went through, which almost everyone seems to have forgotten about, especially because the newest writers or DC superiors forgot about it or outright erased it. So, the parts that gave a "clear reason" to feel for and understand Jason were thrown out of the window so they could just make a back and forth between Jay and Batman, where Bruce is mostly the one in the right, despite being the one that failed so many times at helping his son, and a lot of times being the one that caused Jay more pain than anything or anyone else.

And, honestly, the people that use the "Pit Madness" excuse/explanation aren't giving Jason understanding either, they are just giving him an out so the character can be "redeemed" without actually having anything to redeem himself for,, after all it isn't his fault, so why would he need to take responsability or have a valid reason to do what he did, he simply doesn't have a reason, it's just the Pit controling him and his anger or something. Like a puppet... which comes off more as "fake sympathy" because these people seem to only be capable to empathize/sympathise with Jay if he wasn't in control of his violent actions.

Also, maybe he doesn't need/deserve to be forgiven for the way he hurt people that didn't deserve it (such as Mia, Onyx and Tim), but he does deserve at least some understanding, and understanding doesn't mean you agree to his methods, to how he went about "warning Batman and the Hero community of their errors". And it's a damn shame that this seems to be a hard concept for some writers and fans to grasp.

Plus, it's also such a shame that nowadays writing decided to "corrupt" the little that Jay had as Robin by painting him as an angry and violent punk with no good reasons for why he is like he is. Where is that understanding for that kid that went through such a hard life, that just continued and continues to give him nothing but hardships and pain.

So,, i just wanted to conclude that i think Jason had enough of people (both in meta and in-universe) only painting him as if he is "one of the worst people there was/is", that he deserved the pain he went through, claiming that he had no way to have it better, when that couldn't be further from the truth, if he was properly given the chance to grow out of the cycle of violence and pain, that he still wasn’t fully able to move away from even to this day.

Ending my headaches with this post

Generally, i think it's so funny to think about how much our generation gets attached to fictional characters in such a personal way. And while it is valid to feel and express either positive or negative feelings towards a character and their actions, i think that these need to be more balanced and about things that are true about the character, aka coming from canon, as much as canon gives us so many shitty ideas and some really questionable writing choices. Like, at this point i am so tired that DC keeps doing this to Jay... DC, just please make up your mind once and for all in either or not you want Jay to be part of the Batfam and give him something else to do besides always being at odds with his family and going back and forth in working with and not working with them... just find some basic consistency with him, we ain't asking for much.

And again, just because i love Jason and i did defend him more than criticised him during this post, that doesn't mean that i agree or defend everything he did and/or believed/believes in,, i just enjoy his character and some stories (or really the potential that he had/has) and to discuss about it. But sometimes the writing and some fan opinions really annoy me so much, so i feel the need to camplain about them... so, this is why i made this rant on Jason Todd, one of my favourite characters, despite all the shit he gets.

Anyway,, thanks for coming and reading another one of my Jason Todd rants.

#jason todd #robin #red hood #dc critical #fandom critical #dc meta #dc comics #dc #alexa talks here

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