#here's my problem. it's that really emotionally heavy stories can actually kind of ruin my mood because of the mood swings

[starlit-mansion]

sometimes i still like to laugh at the romance book i tried to read that over-pitched being about people in their late 30 or early 40s, one of which was sober and unemployed because of a scandal, and the other was a divorcee with an extremely demanding job, and the book proceeded to be exclusively them reminiscing about their high school romance and recreating it by visiting old locations from their past together, the alcoholism was waved away whenever anyone else wanted to drink, the scandal had nothing to do with the character whatsoever, the divorcee and the ex had the most function besties coparenting relationship ever and the demanding job literally never came up from the first chapter to the middle of the book where i finally dropped it in disgust.

not only failed step one. but literally failed every other step

#it was. hilarious. i donated the book to goodwill #almost worth the bookstore price for being able to mock it alone #here's my problem. it's that really emotionally heavy stories can actually kind of ruin my mood because of the mood swings #but then you try to take in fluffy light stuff and it SUCKS ASS and is full of so much painfully unfunny wanna-be witty banter #and an absolute determination to never demand the slightest bit of thought from the audience that it also ruins my mood lmao #anyway. why even pitch me a romance story about 40 year old dudes when it's just about them remembering being teens #i came here for the 40 year old men part

[mermaidsirennikita]

Hello! I hope you're well! I was wondering if you happen to have any recs for contemporary small town/rural based romances (in any country). I know this is a massive genre, so I was hoping you could cherrypick some good ones. My only caveat is that I'd prefer neither of the MCs to be police officers or in the military.

So I will say, my problem as the recommender here is that I have a hard time with small town romances. It's not that I hate all of them, but it is hard for me to find many I enjoy. So my recs will be limited, but I have a few. No cops/military in these, as I do not read books with that involved if I can avoid it.

Georgie, All Along by Kate Clayborn. Kate writes very heartfelt, romantic romantic contemporaries. In this one, the heroine's job as a personal assistant to a celebrity ends and she goes home to a small town in Virginia. She finds this notebook she kept as a tween of all the things she wanted to do as a young adult, and decides to try to accomplish them with the help of this rough around the edges guy, who's actually the brother of her adolescent dream boy.

The Dive Bar trilogy by Kylie Scott. I don't think this one is super rural, but I definitely got small town vibes. It's basically a set of books focused around a dive bar, and it begins with the first heroine dipping on her wedding day after being sent a video of her groom hooking up with his best man. It's not my favorite set of books by Kylie ever, but they're cute and cozy and very small town homey.

End of Story by Kylie Scott is one I liked a good bit more. I don't remember exactly where it's set, but it does kick off with the heroine inheriting a fixer upper house right after getting dumped, so it has that sense. Her ex's friend turns out to be the contractor she hired, and at first they're like "shit" but the end up working together... only to find, in the walls of the house, a divorce decree dated ten years in the future with their names on it??? It's not heavy on the supernatural, there's just a bit of a magical vibe added to what is really a contemporary.

It Seemed Like A Good Idea at the Time by Kylie Scott. This one is set in Australia (where Kylie is from, I think) and I think it's in a somewhat rural area? Of all the books I've recommended by her in thiks post, this is my favorite. The heroine is coming back for her father's wedding at 25, and the reason why she was basically banished is because, at 18, she misread some signals and tried to seduce her father's close friend and business partner (who's 15 years her senior) and her dad walked in on her like, straddling this man with her top off, lol. This guy is understandably a bit bugged that she almost ruined that friendship (and he really did not engage, so it makes sense) but now that she's back and older/more mature, the vibes are THICK.

Before I Let Go by Kennedy Ryan gave me small town vibes, and it's set surrounding this tight-knit friend group, with the backdrop of the hero and heroine owning a restaurant together and trying to convince this family to sell them this other restaurant so they can kind of reno/restore/preserve it. Buuut it's also pretty emotionally intense, if incredibly well-written. The hero and heroine are actually divorced parents, who were in love since a young age but split after their third child was stillborn. They have an amicable co-parenting relationship, but as he begins to move on, they start to realize that they never actually fell out of love (or lust). Superbly angsty, and Kennedy is just an incredible writer.

After Hours on Milagro Street by Angelina M. Lopez. This one definitely is heavy on the community presence. The heroine is a well-known, very combative bartender who's returned home to try to revamp her grandmother's bar. But the tenant above the bar, this intellectual professor guy, opposes her on it. They end up having to work together, despite their issues (and despite them having sex pretty much immediately upon meeting before she decides to hate his ass lol).

A Merry Little Meet Cute by Sierra Simone and Julie Murphy. If you're ready for some pre-holiday holiday vibes (or want to put this away for the season) I loved this book. It literally takes place in an area that exists to be filmed for Hallmark-style Christmas movies. The heroine is a plus size porn star who wants to break into mainstream acting, and after the star of this TV Christmas movie has to back out at the last minute, she gets the lead. Her costar is this former boy bander who's known for a massive scandal in which he apparently fucked a figure skater at the Olympics and ruined her chance for gold (IT'S HONESTLY HILARIOUS) and he alsooooo immediately recognizes the heroine because he's a biiiig fan of her on what is essentially OnlyFans. I LOVE THE "I LOVE UR WORK AS A PORN STAR" SETUP. EVERY TIME. Anyway, he can't even begin to contain his boner as they're filming, it's hot, the tension is thick, everyone is queer, I love it.

#romance novel blogging #book recs

[papers4me]

Fruits Basket Manga Review , ch 111

sigh~~~ I feel that my recent posts are a bit negative towards the anime, but thats cuz the chapters I’ve read so far are either unbelievably important character depth content cut for no valid reason or content in the anime but packed with million other things that it lost its purpose or importance. Basically tohu’s ep 6 which consists of 4 chapters & now ep 5 which is a momiji ep & yup, packed with 4 chapters as well... so, I apologize for any negativity, my intention is just analyzing artistic & story-telling aspects, I love se03, but yeah it screwed up lots of important characters due to its not so thorough plot decisions & harmful character insight choices.

today.. we explore Momiji... but only before his curse breaks.

Furuba anime struggling to know how to design an episode based on various plot-heavy chapters?

so, they decided 13 eps, & decided one ep for momiji cuz motoko’s graduation & the fanclub is the core of the furuba & have already cut tons of tohru, cuz who cares? she’s kind. be like her. end of lesson. No. really, jokes aside, how to do this?

How to combine several chapters in one ep? collect small snippets from chosen chapters/content like a bee does flowers? you gotta skip some content, you gotta highlight others. The ep is only 20 min after all & you got an op & Ed that you cant always skip.... so.. furuba team decide that momoji’s ep should be true to his zodiac animal, this is the rabbits last appearance in spirit. so, they went with quick hopping from one chapter to the other like a rabbit?

No really, ep 5 is really like a rabbit in its flow, you can’t savior a moment enough before jumping to the other: we learned momiji grew up!! loves toheu romantically, challenged kyo, really meant it, wanted a fair love game, got freed, lost tohru romantically & faced momiji! but that’s not all? we still have space!! quick add akito’s moodiness & love triangle with her dog & her submissive bed partner, add a happy comedy for no reason whatever & make shigue kiss tohru & wish shes 'was his lover instead!!!!!!!!! Mind you all this happened in the anime before shigure hurt tohru with his “the truth of the zodiacs talk & them accepting & feeling consolance that kyo is doomed”talk. 

-Gets whats my biggest surprise after reading this chapter ?????????

Shigure is consistent!! He isnt a rabbit hopping here & there. The dog is loyal & is tired for good reason! Him being depressed & his weird talk with thoru makes so much sense given the manga’s order.

Kyo is consistent!! In the anime, momiji surprise him with confession he loves tohru & challenge him, then kyo la~la~la~joins them downstairs for curry. Not a single expression on his face, where is the expression? it will appear when the plot is forced to address it: by the end of the ep when momiji face hin again. Then we get kyo’s reaction.

I need someone to tell the anime that actions require a reaction. You can refrain from showing a certain reaction if you can’t address it now, but you can’t erase it, negate it, then make it appear when have to!!!! couldn’t they make kyo refuse to join them & eat together? the     other characters wont be surprised they think he’s needlessly moody. The audience will know that kyo is troubled with momiji’s challenged & it will excite them!!! having kyo just go eat & watch the momiji/hiro/haru/yuki comedy skit is weird.

The manga’s author wanted kyo to join the dinner, like the anime did. but huge difference. the author actually cares for logic reaction & understands that the audience aren’t dumb little kids that will sit & wait for kyo’s turn to...react! nope! she did this: (a) & (b) below.

-Lost Small Bits/ Panels from the chapter.. But Sadly Big Huge Chunks for Characters buildup & Growth:

(a) addressed the fact the hiro noticed kyoru is in love & dressed that shigure was right!! the cat being in love is a weird concept to the zodiacs! hiro reacted naturally & the author used hiro to flesh yuki’s (the rat), momiji’s (the rabbit) & haru’s (the cow) decision to silently watch the kyo (the cat) makes his own decisions to live!!! They won’t interfere or tell akito or remind him of his state as the doomed caged cat. So sad this moment is cut from yuki. Why must yuki only interact with kyo to beat him (all seasons)? why must yuki only think of kyo to envy him (all seasons) ? Here, yuki’s growth towards kyo as a person & his relationship with tohru is 1000 times better than all tohru is my mom’s sh!t & I envy kyo’s Sh!t we saw in the anime over & over till we memorized it.

(b) kyo didnt just go la~la~eat with momiji after knowing he loves tohru. Nope, there’s small bits missing: called logical emotional reaction. He was surprised he’s caught pining over tohru! cuz yuki, the audience representative, has told us in the previous chapter that ppl in love dont notice anything around them. Kyo thinks him being cold hid his feelings. the dummy’s feelings are as bright as the sun in the Sahara, tohru too. a child read her! such small thing that wont take much space from the ep but was cut cuz kyo only needs to be responsive at the ep’s end. & this scene of kyo & tohru looking awkwardly at each other is minor in space but so important cuz kyo is determined to let go but his decision is challenged by not only momiji, but his natural attraction to tohru. Here he knows he’s caught & exposed... here he knows momiji is a better choice for tohru cuz he wont didn’t hurt her mom... here he knows that even yuki is better cuz never had to pretend to be cold to her... here he knows the world is better than him... & here he just cant help by smile & walks towards her... T_T ... another lesson in writing slow burns by Takaya-san.

-Why would the anime team pass on this?? drawing kyoru closer after the epic tear in Cinderella ep, cuz they want empty suspense~! The anime team thinks that if kyo & tohru stand next to each other, then it means all their issues are solved & the audience are so stupid as to forget tohru’s mom, kyo’s imprisonment, kyo not confessing his sins to tohru & tohru’s need to make a choice wether to fogive hom or not.. nope! you see, they think, ppl who read mangas are smart, so the author can give this epic symbolism & pp would still be not sure kyoru is end game & tohru will forgive him or kyo even fogive himself, but ppl who watch, oh no, gotta cut all the plot worthy content, produce a graduation song for a minor character, cut all kyo/tohru interaction cuz it only means romance & not at all character depth & oh if we show yuki actually formulating deep thoughts that aren’t centered around him, the audience might forget his se02 struggles! or that might ruin yuki’s upcoming growth moment in the finale where he .. you guessed it hits kyo.. as he always do & sulk &  think abt himself cuz yuki can only do monologues when he’s directly involved.... man~it is so sad how the anime is dumped down.. Who is the target audience again? not kids as young as hiro cuz even hiro is smart!

-just look:

 Momiji talks abt kyo shouldn't give up loving tohru & the authr shows this this ghost!!! his mom! The author reminds us that kyo isnt da~~~~ forgetting anything. He’s a deeply troubled soul & hos mom wants him locked cuz she too was locked in a cage & thinks that’s safer...why oh why you dump ur own story! sh!t~

Side Notes:

I like the closeups on Kisa’s face as she interacted with kyo. It’s very rare for kisa to have a world beside the endearing parental/big protective bro/big doting sister love she has with tohru & haru & off course the romantic love with hiro which was perhaps since their birth or sth. lol.  Kisa & kyo arent much on the brotherly side as they rarely interact, but its one of those  refreshing  interactions she has that helps cast a new light on her as tiny as it is,  but its sth out of the norm around her. She sees him  around tohru & gets to perceive his true unprovoked character. “He is  nice guy”.

I really wanted to punch kureno this chapter.. like Shigure is a jerk shitty dog for sleeping with akito’s mom but kureno... dude.. you submissively sleep with the guy’s eternal love interest & still walks in on him talking to her!!! lol. you’re mentally, emotionally & physically weaker than him & yet, she puts you on her bed, not him & you, tho not wanting her at all, dont walk away. No wonder shigure is defeated & wishing for someone like tohru, lol! Even if shigure met an older tohru-like person, it wont work. shigure deserve someone like him mean, schemer & loves playing power games. Tohru is someone who values honesty & commutation, not saying she’s an angel on earth, but tohru knows who suits her.. except fate is saying: NO. .... currently. lol.

I know kureno’s weakness is part of his character & I love that such characters exits. There are ppl ike that in real life. It’s just this chapter, I felt shigure’s frustration. XD

Yuki in this ep is the best yuki. no exaggeration here, I love when yuki is calmly thoughtful of others & here its kyo of all ppl !!!! cutting this scene is sad.. without it, kyo & yuki remain a cat & rat in the anime. Only ever thinking abt each other thro envious binoculars or hateful words or yuki giving kyo comedic hitting or life’s problem-solving hitting. Why can’t anime yuki be interactive outside his self-centered issues is beyond me.

Momiji & kyo’s interactions are always the best! whether comedy or drama.

I hated the curry cooking scene in the anime... so weirdly out of the ep’s flow.. very forced comedy... in the manga it had a purpose! not just quick add comedy cuz next shot momiji curse breaks & drama & we’ll close the ep with tears & sadness & glimpses of hope...

I love haru’s answer to hiro... so him.. “a guy can’t fall in love?”so chill.. so..simple.

#Fruits Basket #Anime Only #manga spoilers #fruits basket manga #manga review #sad paper #mad paper #I'm having shitty personal day dont mind me #sorry for extra anger #if it sounds like I;m screaming or shouting #I'm not i swear #I really love the anime & se03 is the best content among the other seasons #its just have big giant issues in plot & characters....

[sineala]

A Few Thoughts About Hurt/Comfort

I have been asked this month to make a post about hurt/comfort in Avengers comics. And I love h/c -- I actually have a massive number of WIPs right now that are h/c -- so I am very happy to talk about it! Anyway, this is not really all that planned out and this mostly turned into an excursus on Tony Stark's pain. I'm sure you're all surprised.

Like pretty much everyone else, I'm sure, I have found that everything lately has been... pretty tough. And the coping mechanism that really got me through last year and this year was reading and writing a lot of h/c, on the theory that, however lousy a day I'm having, I can absolutely make sure that Tony Stark has a worse one. And then I can make sure he gets hugs. Wish fulfillment? Why, yes. (Once at Hallmark I was trying to find a "get well soon" card, forgot what it was called, and described it to my wife as "a hurt/comfort card.") I think Marvel Comics -- the Avengers side, in particular -- is an interesting canon for h/c for a lot of reasons. Though, honestly, if you asked me to recommend you, a hurt/comfort fan, a new fandom, I would probably just hand you some Starsky & Hutch DVDs. Go watch "The Fix" and get back to me later. If you like that, there's way more where that came from. But there's still lots to love in Marvel! Superhero comics are really a goldmine as far as the hurt side of h/c. Because superheroes, and you probably have noticed this, get hurt a lot. They get hurt repeatedly, in fantastical ways that are probably impossible in real life both physically and emotionally (at least, I don't think anyone's invented mind control yet), and even the heroes without superhuman healing powers tend to get physically hurt a whole lot worse than actual people can take. Currently in Iron Man comics, Tony has a broken back and is dealing with this by locking himself into the armor as a backboard and injecting himself with massive doses of painkillers. He's busy! He's got stuff to do! He doesn't have time to lie around and heal! So, basically, if you name a kind of pain that you would like to see happen to a character, it's probably happened to superheroes. Multiple times. The downside, though, is that comics do not really deliver that well when it comes to the comfort part of h/c. They could. It's not inherent to the medium that they don't. But because of the serial nature of comics and also the fact the primary audience is dudes who want to read about people in spandex punching each other, a lot of the time they don't really feel the need to provide closure and write about people dealing with any of the hurt. (Raise your hand if you're still annoyed with the end of Hickman's Avengers run.) But at the same time, I think that's a quality that makes Avengers ripe for h/c fanfic. Because, generally speaking, fandom likes to provide the things that canon doesn't, and fandom is more than happy to provide the comfort. If you enjoy canonical h/c in comics, I think you really can't go wrong with Iron Man. One of the big innovations of modern Marvel Comics was the concept that heroes would also suffer from relatable human problems, and in practice what this means is that a lot of heroes start with a fully-loaded angst-ridden backstory and origin story, ripe for h/c. So Tony starts out by incurring a heart injury that he fully expects is going to kill him, which he responds to by vowing he won't get close to anyone so they won't be sad when he dies, and throughout the early Silver Age is constantly on the brink of death as his heart nearly gives out on him practically every issue. And then even after his heart gets (mostly) better, there are various plots involving his armor being detrimental to his health and him choosing to fight on anyway. It's hard for me to think of another superhero hitting that particular variety of h/c in exactly the same way. Sure, superheroes risk their lives constantly, because this is how superhero comics work, but Tony is the only one I can think of who is this constantly this badly off, physically. Like, think of all the other heroes who have had a continual solo presence as fan favorites across Marvel history -- Captain America, Thor, Spider-Man, Wolverine, maybe even Deadpool. You know what those guys all have? Healing factors! For the most part, they are not running around continually on the verge of death, and while there are certainly memorable arcs involving several of them being severely injured and/or dead, you really have to work at it. It's not their constant state of affairs, whereas Tony is the kind of superhero who shows up to a fight already bleeding out under his armor. Yeah, I know Extremis gave him a healing factor. But he didn't have it very long, and also he did some extremely dangerous things while he did have it; I'm pretty sure I've never seen Wolverine saying that he'll just solve a problem by cutting off his own foot. So, anyway, yeah, there are a bunch of good arcs involving h/c for Tony. If you're looking for physical injury, he has a whole bunch of heart problems over the years, gets several new hearts, then ruins his brain, et cetera. That level of hurt is basically the background pain of Tony's life; every so often, his heart will get damaged or he'll have to live in the armor or the armor will be killing him, et cetera. If you're looking for more unusual trauma, I am, as always, going to rec Manhunt, a relatively obscure arc in late v3 (IM v3 #65-69) in which Tony has an extremely bad week. His tech is stolen and used to bomb a building. Then he gets shot in the chest. Then while he's at the hospital a nurse tries and fails to poison him, and she then tries to beat him to death. Then he checks himself out of the hospital and a helicopter shoots missiles at him. Then he becomes a fugitive from justice. And then, oh, yeah, he has to fight the Mandarin. It is... a lot. (Volume 3 of Iron Man is pretty good as far as h/c possibilities. You've got a lot of physical pain, Carol's drinking arc, the Sentient Armor, both DreamVision arcs, and Manhunt. Manhunt is finally supposed to be out in trade this month, by the way.) There are of course the drinking arcs, which probably count as their own type of hurt. But if you haven't read the second drinking arc (IM #160-200), please do. Marvel likes to up the stakes on events (Fear Itself, Secret Empire) by making Tony drink, and it does work, I think. I feel like I've spoken at length about Tony's drinking elsewhere so I don't really want to rehash it all here. And then there's the emotional pain. Angst and drama is something that happens to a whole bunch of characters, yes, especially in comics, but somehow Tony seems to end up with possibly more than his fair share of it. Fandom likes to make a lot of Howard Stark's A+ Parenting, so much so that you might think, if you didn't know canon, that this was just fandom running with a throwaway mention of Tony's terrible childhood and making it worse. But, no, canon really does go there with a reasonable amount of frequency. Howard's actual first appearance is in a flashback where he's ordering teenage Tony to break up with his girlfriend because she's the daughter of one of Howard's business rivals. And then we get into the verbal abuse, and the physical abuse, and the time Howard made Tony take his first drink, and the part where Howard was a demon in hell who Tony fought while he insulted him. And more! Currently, in canon, Howard is alive again and is in league with Mephisto for the express purpose of ruining Tony's life. Also when Tony was a baby, Howard tried to trade him to Dracula. I think you can make an argument that fandom is actually showing restraint when compared to canon. Tony also has a whole lot of Terrible Exes whose presence and/or former presence in Tony's life can be used for a lot of hurt. If you've read any amount of fanfic, you probably know that the exes who get the most play in fandom are Sunset Bain and Tiberius Stone -- not that Tony and Ty were ever canonically a couple, of course, but fandom is definitely enamored of this idea. Ty and Sunset both have relatively similar interactions with Tony in canon, in that they are both liars and emotional abusers, heavy on the gaslighting, with the purpose of becoming more successful than Tony. They both also attempt to murder Tony, although this is after he figures out they're evil, at least. (Yes, I know, this is not how either of them usually appear in AUs.) Tony also has a bunch of exes who also have just straight-up tried to murder or otherwise hurt him, sometimes while they are dating, and sometimes before Tony dates them: Whitney Frost, Indries Moomji, Kathy Dare, and Maya Hansen come to mind. There are probably more I'm not thinking of! But, yes, if you want to write about a guy in a series of terrible relationships, please consider Iron Man comics. If mind control is one of your favorite flavors of hurt, Tony's pretty good for that too. We all know about The Crossing. I suppose when I say "mind control" I mostly mean "armor control" because there are an awful lot of plots where someone else makes Tony's armor do whatever they want it to do and Tony is along for the ride -- Demon in a Bottle, Sentient Armor, and Execute Program are the first things that come to mind. There is also a fairly obscure What If that is What If Iron Man Lost The Armor Wars in which Justin Hammer apparently really wants Tony in a mind control collar to take off all his clothes and lounge around in his underwear. No, really. I think a lot of pain for Tony often revolves around his issues with control, generally -- his alcoholism comes into play here again. The entire aftermath of Civil War is also notable for its propensity to hurt Tony over and over and over. Is he stoically soldiering on through his grief after Steve dies? Hell, no! He cries, like, six separate times. He 100% blames himself for Steve's death. It's great. Everybody loves The Confession and the funeral in Fallen Son, but one of my personal favorites is Avengers/Invaders, in which Tony is confronted with a time-traveling Steve from WWII and in order not to screw up the timeline, he can't tell Steve he knows him. He is clearly not coping well. He shuts himself in a room with a giant wall of pictures of Steve! Also there's a part where he has to try to convince Steve he can trust him and he ends up having to tie Steve to a chair to talk to him, and Steve looks at him and asks, "Who did you kill to get where you are?" and I feel like that is probably one of the worst moments in Tony's life. No wonder he gave himself amnesia. So now we might want to ask, okay, but why is hurting Tony in fanfiction so much fun? I mean, I can tell you why I think it's fun. I can't speak for anyone else. One reason is that he is very emotional and very affected by everything he does. Sometimes you will see people complaining that the heroes of m/m fanfic cry too much and this is not realistic. This is not a problem if you're writing Tony! He can cry as much as you want and it's perfectly in character. I don't think it would be as fun to hurt him if he didn't express so much of his pain. But he does. He also feels guilty, and for me that's a very satisfying character element. If he were well-adjusted and didn't blame himself for so many things, it wouldn't be nearly as fun as watching him blame himself for everyone whose death he thinks he is responsible for, whether or not he is. And then he just keeps going, and it's, y'know, nice to watch him be resilient, too. So, I guess, I think hurting him is interesting because it's easy to hurt him, his weak points are pretty obvious, and he reacts a lot. Steve doesn't hurt quite as much as Tony does, in canon. It's certainly possible to hurt him -- I mean, they did actually kill him after Civil War, after all -- but I don't think the canonical patterns of hurting him are as numerous. Obviously deseruming Steve is a fairly popular go-to in terms of physical hurt; he's been deserumed at least three times that I know of. I think's easy to see the appeal there of taking a character who is fairly physically resilient and making him... much less so. Certainly Marvel seems to see the appeal. But other than that I don't think he has any other really common way to get physically injured. Unlike Tony, whose origin story is basically "oh no, I've acquired a disability," Steve's origin story is "I drank a serum that cured all my disabilities." Which, I mean, great wish fulfillment but there's not really as much there to poke at. Pretty much all of Steve's pain is emotional, but, unlike Tony, his pain isn't often specifically in response to someone directly, purposefully hurting him. Hickman's Avengers run is a big exception, yes. His pain seems to come up most often as a kind of situational angst. He feels like a man out of time. He feels out of touch with the modern era, with people his own age. He feels guilt because he feels responsible for Bucky's death. He feels like he can't trust the government and therefore he can't be Captain America. He worries that he doesn't know how to have a normal life. And, yes, these are deep and important worries but it's different than, like, Indries Moomji dumping Tony with the intent to make him sad enough to start drinking. Very few of Steve's villains want to personally ruin Steve's entire life the way Tony's villains do; mostly they just want to do things like bring back the Nazis. In terms of Steve's potential for h/c, I think Steve is harder to hurt than Tony is. Physically, he is definitely harder to hurt. You can deserum him, sure, but unless you want everything you write to be a deseruming fic you're probably not going to want to do that more than a couple of times. And if you want to hurt him physically while he has the serum, you have to hurt him hard. Usually past the point where a regular human would ever survive it. He's also harder to break, emotionally, than Tony is -- which means it's very satisfying when you can get him to break, but this is a guy who's only cried twice (that I remember) in canon. So if you want to get him to cry, you really, really have to wreck him, and he doesn't have as many obvious weak spots. He also doesn't generally sit around blaming himself for things that aren't his fault, and the whole "stewing in guilt" genre of plots for him basically came down to "he was sad that he thought Bucky's death was his fault," and that's really the biggest regret he seems to have, and also Bucky's not dead anymore. The Steve/Tony relationship itself, I would think, is also appealing to h/c fans because canon provides a lot of ways for them to hurt each other. Some people only ship pairings who would never, y'know, take turns beating each other half to death in major event comics. (And for a lot of Marvel Comics history, that was also Steve & Tony, so if you want them to be BFFs who have never fought, you can just set your fic earlier.) They have definitely hurt each other both physically and emotionally, so if you're looking for something easy and satisfying as a h/c fan, you can just read or write something where they... make up. What about Marvel characters other than Steve and Tony? Surely some of them are angsty, yes? Well, yes, but also it depends on the particular flavor of angst that you like. If you like the way Tony hurts, you may very well enjoy Doctor Strange comics, because they have a very similar attitude towards life -- they are both former alcoholics whose origin stories involve physical disabilities, who routinely make tactical decisions that negatively affect their continued existence and/or happiness a whole lot. It's very much an "I must suffer alone in the dark and no one will ever know what I am doing to save the world but it's the right thing to do" sort of vibe. Like, you can read comics where Strange is lying in hell with two broken legs, hallucinating that Clea has finally come to save him. Strange's biggest fear, akin to Tony's control issues, is basically that one day he's going to be an asshole again, so he's out there trying as hard as he can to do good. Also, if you like tentacles, he has all of them. I mean that. Carol also occasionally hits similar angst spots, and her drinking arc is great. A lot of people like Natasha, too; I have read zero Black Widow comics but I get the impression many people enjoy her brand of angst. The mutant metaphor is a little different in terms of overall vibe, but some people really like it as a source of angst -- the whole "protecting a world who hates and fears them" thing. It may not work for you, but if you like your hurt to include things like systemic oppression, go pick up some X-Men comics. Start with something like God Loves Man Kills. I feel like I liked this sort of thing a lot more as a teenager but that I kind of aged out of liking the mutants quite so much. It's also worth mentioning that not everything that hits the spot in one universe will be the same in the others, and I'm mentioning this because I feel like I have to say something about MCU Bucky. MCU fandom seems to get a lot of mileage out of Bucky's guilt about being the Winter Soldier, everything he was forced to do, et cetera. I have definitely read my share of those fics, and FATWS sure went right for that angst too. But as far as I can tell, he doesn't hit the same way at all in 616. And I like him a lot in 616; I'm always pleased when he shows up on a team. (He was so good in Strikeforce. Everyone was so good in Strikeforce.) But the thing is, 616 Bucky is, basically, phenomenally well-adjusted, given everything he's gone through, and I'm including the time he wrestled a bear in a gulag. He gets over having been the Winter Soldier, and now he's just, y'know, a guy with a cool arm who likes to bring guns to every fight to horrify his teammates, and he snarks at Clint. If you're looking for that angst, that is really not him these days. He's all better. So pretty much all that is canon. So what do we do in fandom for h/c? Well, as far as I can tell, a decent amount of it is canon-based or very canon-close -- there are a whole lot of stories exploring the angst of Civil War or Hickman's Avengers run. Tony's drinking comes up a fair amount, and if one of Tony's Evil Exes comes back to haunt him, it's pretty much only Tiberius Stone. I don't think I've read a lot of fic with Steve getting deserumed; it doesn't seem as popular in fandom as in canon. When Steve gets hurt, he tends to just get physically whumped pretty hard, and there's a fair amount of that for Tony too, but of course Steve can take more. There's also a thriving, uh, subgenre of pain involving Hydra Steve doing terrible things to Tony, presumably the terrible things he would have wanted to do to Tony in canon if Tony had had a flesh body. There's the usual kinds of h/c setups that appear in basically every fandom as well -- sickfic, whump, dub-con/non-con. You get the idea. But since fandom in general likes to take specific inspiration from canon, there's a lot of fic where the hurt tends to resemble things that happen more in canon. Like, I feel like comics fic probably has more tentacle fic and more mind control than canons that don't come pre-stocked with those. Probably everybody has a whole lot of "tied up by bad guys," though. And then, of course, fandom brings the comfort that canon does not. This is true in pretty much every fandom -- I mean, you aren't going to find a lot of actual canons where Character A saves Character B from mortal peril and then there's gay sex -- but, like I was saying, comics don't provide a lot of closure before it's onto the next thing. Usually with a different creative team, who has no interest in wrapping up anything from the last team. Steve and Tony talked about the incursions exactly once after Secret Wars and nobody mentioned the part where Steve spent several months trying to hunt Tony down and kill him. Tony is never going to remember the events of Civil War. Hydra Steve died ignominiously in a fire and no one has ever talked about him again. Honestly, if you're looking for a way to get some comfort in your fanfic, picking an event, any event, and just having the characters talk about it will be way more than any of them get in canon. I feel like honestly that can often be a pretty satisfying to read. And even though comics canon physically hurts characters pretty often and pretty badly, they also often skip right past the recovery. Maybe you'll get one page of a character in a hospital bed at the end of the story arc. Maybe you won't. Demon in a Bottle has one splash page of Tony going through alcohol withdrawal and then he's all better. I think Manhunt skips to Tony getting out of the hospital at the end. That's just not a story that they want to tell very often. The second drinking arc is notable in that it devotes almost as many issues to Tony's recovery as it does to getting him to rock-bottom. Similarly, Steve is done with his Nomad angst way way faster than you probably think he is (though The Captain does go in for a fair number of issues). So one of the things we often want to do in fandom is focus on all the bits that canon skips over, both in the "why did no one ever mention this story arc ever again" way and the "wow, so how long are they in the hospital after that" way. That's really all I can think of about h/c! I'm off to write some more of it!

#posts i actually wrote

[dukeofonions]

Season Two Episode Ranking

Warning: I get very, very, very, critical in this ranking. Like, angry ranting that’s almost laughable. Should I be getting this worked up over an online series? Eh, probably not. But this is my life and I’ll get outrageously angry over whatever media I want. 

Seriously though, this is all just my personal opinion. I’m not saying you have to agree with me and if you like the episodes that I don’t then that’s perfectly fine. 

I tend to overthink things a lot and I spend most of my time analyzing every little details of this series because what else am I supposed to do at work?

So yeah, this ranking is definitely less positive than the one I did for the first season. But I hope y’all can still have some fun going over it! And if anyone does their own rankings be sure to tag me because I’d love to see them and see how mine compare! 

Anyways, enough of me acting like this is more important than it is, on with the ranking! 

I can’t believe season two only has 12 episodes. Now I went ahead and counted Moving On as one episode in this ranking since my opinions on both parts are pretty similar, but sweet cheese and fish this season started on September 1st, 2017 with Fitting in and right now is left on Putting Others First which came out on May 1st, 2020. And as of me writing this it is now May 2nd, 2021. It’s been a whole year since the last episode and we still have no idea when the finale is coming. 

Like, bruh. 

Also remember how the longest episode in season one was only about 15 minutes long and the shortest one was barely four minutes? 

Well the shortest episode in season two is Crofters- The Musical which is 8:42 seconds. The longest episode is Putting Others First which is a whopping 51:09.

And I wish I could say that the writing was on the same level it was in the first season, but there’s a reason I put that warning up there. 

Well, enough stalling, let’s get this ball rolling.

#11 Embarrassing Phases

There are no words in the English language that can describe the sheer amount of hatred I have for this episode. If I could rank this any lower, I would, which will happen once we finally get the season finale. I don't know how that episode will go but it'll definitely be better than whatever dumpster fire this was.

Like, okay. I have some positives. Roman, Patton, and Virgil's costumes were cool. I won't lie I live for vampire Virgil. And the message about embracing your past "phases" and exploring how they helped made you who you are. That's neat. I like that.

And that's it.

My biggest gripe with this episode is Virgil. He just acts like a complete bitch in this! And I don't mean that in an endearing way he's literally so mean for no reason!

He's all "You guys are trivializing my past!"

In response to them going "Hey Virgil, we're glad you're part of our group now and are proud of how far you've come!"

Like okay, even if it was insensitive to call it a "phase" literally there was no reason for him to get as angry as he did.

Just a simple; "Hey, I don't like it when you refer to what I went through as a phase because it feels like you're not talking it seriously."

Isnt that what this whole show is about? Communication???

It wasn't fun watching him just insulting the others, it was annoying!

Like poor Patton, just trying to help and be encouraging, only for Virgil to keep treating him like dirt.

What did I miss here? Virgil was fine in the last few episodes, so what the heck happened?

Oh and let's not forget the great advice Thomas offers Patton at the end of the episode in regards to handling Virgil: "Don't do anything to get on his bad side or else he'll do bad things to you!"

Okay I'm paraphrasing here but that's basically what he says! And since Virgil is supposed to be a representation of anxiety, this is a horrible message!!!

What happened to finding healthy ways to cope with your anxiety? What happened to keeping it in check so it didn't take over your life?

Yeah I'm definitely gonna make a full post about this one episode later because there's a whole lot more to unpack here. But yeah -10/10

#10 Putting Others First

There is just way too much going on with this episode. They try cramming so much in here that I don't even remember more than half of it.

I remember the opening song, then the Lilypadton fight and everything that happens from there. That's it.

And those are the best parts of this episode, but even that has problems because everything with Janus feels like a completely different episode.

Also the whole way they try to teach about morality is all over the place. How did we go from choosing a wedding over a callback to deciding whether or not you would die for your friends to self care is important?

And while the video game sequences, while utilized well in some places, were way too distracting and it felt like they were just trying to shove as many video game references in as they could.

You could take out just about all of them and the episode wouldn't change. Everything they were used for could have been done just through having the characters talk to each other, and knowing this makes the fact that this video was delayed for so long because of it just makes the whole thing worse.

Like the animations were well done, and I don't want to downplay the hard work the animator did. They were just doing their job after all.

But the trolley scenes (especially the second one) hurt my eyes with all the flashing (would have been nice to have some kind of warning for that) and some of the voice effects (especially on Logan's) were grating and distracting.

I want to rank this episode higher, but it has almost zero rewatch ability and honestly besides the ending, when I first watched this episode I was just kinda let down.

#9 Crofters- The Musical

Okay look, the song is a bop and I adore the fact that Logan and Roman got two episodes in the spotlight, but it's just kinda "meh" to me. Plus I get just a tinge of second hand embarrassment but that's just me.

And I know this is kinda unfair but another reason why this one isn't higher is because of a couple of things. One is that they set up some angst for Roman, he's clearly not doing well and Thomas thinks the best thing to do is tell him that he might get his own jam flavor.

Then he does, and instead of following up on that little plot point from this video, they just rushed out a commercial and completely ignored and potential story telling or character development for Roman.

So yeah "Return of the Jam" is the main reason why I don't like this one as much as I used to. And I actually just got an idea for a new post comparing these two so add that to my to-do list.

#8 Fitting In

I actually skipped this one during my first official watch through for one reason and one reason alone: I wasn't allowed to watch Harry Potter.

But I realized that my parents wouldn't approve of me of watching a gay man's content either so I just said screw it.

And luckily I understood enough Harry Potter references to get what they were talking about and honestly, this episode is a lot of fun.

It's a good follow up to Accepting Anxiety, and a nice way to kick off season two. Virgil is finding his place among the group and everyone is trying their best to make him feel welcome, it's really sweet.

And of course we get the new costumes (which i hadn't even noticed that they were wearing their old costumes at first) and I dunno it just gives off season one vibes and it makes me happy.

#7 Moving On Part One/Moving On Part Two

Yeah honestly my thoughts on both parts of this episode are the same. What can I say? It's really good.

This definitely one of the more emotionally heavy episodes in the series, and we see the characters at their lowest for really, the first time in this series.

I adore Patton's room and how each side gets their own corners. All the little details they add in, including the changing picture in the background, it really gives off that nostalgia feel they were going for.

What I love most about this episode is how (unlike some other episodes) they actually let the emotional moments sink in and don't throw in a joke immediately after. Like the ending is bittersweet, sad almost, and I love that they stuck with the mood up until the episode ended.

Not to say there weren't some jokes here and there (mostly in the first part) but once the mood shifts and things become more serious they let that mood stay. And when there are jokes they all work really well.

This is one episode I've actually watched the least out of season two, so it'll be interesting when I go watch it again to see if any of this holds up.

#6 Why Do We Get Out of Bed in the Morning?

Honestly I only put this one above Moving On because Logan and Roman are my favorites.

This episode is actually one of the weaker ones, which hurts to say because again, favorite characters, but goodness it's all over the place. It feels like a precursor to POF and not in a good way.

Logan and Roman just basically argue back and forth throughout the whole episode, never seeing eye to eye with each other, to the point where I think think the writers realized they couldn't find a way to get these two to agree so they just had Thomas step in and be like, "You guys make a really good team!"

Dude, were you even paying attention? They never even reached a conclusion on their own. And even though they have their little moment at the end, it's all kinda ruined when nothing in their relationship changes.

Yes, in Learning New Things About Ourselves, they acknowledge that there's more work to be done in regards to them, which makes sense. People aren't going to suddenly change overnight.

Yet despite having come to some kind of understanding with each other twice now (both here and LNTAO) in the following episodes they still act like they hate each other! Heck Roman is downright nasty to him for seemingly no reason and I don't really blame him for it.

More like I think the writers just don't know how to develop their relationship and just aren't as interested in them as the others. Logan's been reduced to being Mr. Exposition and apparently Roman's personal issues aren't enough for him to carry a room episode on his own because they felt the need to introduce two new characters before he finally gets it.

Sorry, what was I talking about? Oh yeah, the episode.

There's some funny bits here and there and the little animations are cute (even if unnecessary) but really it's only saving grace is being Roman and Logan centered.

Even though they felt the need to include a cameo from literally every other character because apparently no one has any faith that Logan and Roman can carry an episode on their own.

#5 The Sanders Sides 12 Days of Christmas

This episode is just pure fun. Look, I'm not a big fan of Christmas, even less of a fan of Christmas songs, but my gosh this episode almost makes me appreciate the season.

The way they're all just bickering the whole time, being very confused, and how there's just so much personality from each character even when they're not talking/singing and just being in the background is *chef's kiss* perfect.

There's so many fun little details to pick out during the song and it's fun to go back and watch how each side reacts to different things.

#4 Selfishness vs Selflessness

Gonna be real, this used to be my favorite episode. Until my overly critical brain started finding all kinds of problems in the writing department but I think I’ve been negative enough on this post so I’ll save it for another time. 

Janus steals the show in this one, it’s his first official appearance since his debut and he just soaks up the spotlight. It’s refreshing to have an antagonist in the show again, and he’s the perfect foil for each of the original Sides. 

He knows how to play into Roman’s insecurities, know how to feed into his ego and get him on his side. He’s in direct opposition to Patton, who believes that everything Janus represents is wrong. He’s able to silence Logan and take him out of the conversation, speaking over him most of the time. 

And I guess he and Virgil have some beef I dunno. 

The courtroom scenario is fun, and I love how Janus is the only one who sees how ridiculous it is (even though it was your idea in the first place, Jan) and everyone else seeing it as perfectly normal is hilarious. 

I do like some of the more dramatic moments in this episode, especially that final bit with Janus questioning Thomas until he finally gets him to admit the truth. It was intense and reminded me of the scene where Janus confronts Roman in a similar manner. 

While far from perfect this is still a good episode and I can find a lot to love about it, like Janus in a suit. 

#3 Dealing With Intrusive Thoughts

This episode scared the shit out of me and I loved it.

Okay it didn’t actually scare me. But I stayed up to wait for it to be posted, which wasn’t until 2 or 3 in the morning. So by the time I finally watched it I was half awake and not expecting anything that I witnessed. 

The result was me being terrified of Thomas with a mustache and it prevented me from sleeping. I was over it the next day though and had Forbidden Fruit stuck in my head all day. Which isn’t good when you’re running the register at work and you can’t stop singing it. 

There’s a lot of reason why I love this episode, Remus being the primary thing. His entrance is iconic, the first few notes from his theme play as he creeps up behind the TV, him smiling at Roman all creepily until he whacks him over the head and knocks him out for most of the episode. 

Then we get the song, Forbidden Fruit, which is just great. Slight secondhand embarrassment but seeing the finished product and all they put into it, I can’t help but love it. 

Still miffed that Janus hasn’t gotten a song... specifically a villain song... I won’t ever let that go...

Logan is another highlight in this episode (no surprise) and seeing him go head-to-head against his polar opposite without batting an eye was interesting since I was kinda expecting them to show Logan having trouble dealing with Remus but nope. He handled it like a champ and I love them both. 

Now I am kinda wary as to how they’re going to handle Remus in the future, especially with the intrusive thoughts aspect. It’s a sensitive topic and they’re already screwing up anxiety. But Remus has only been in one episode so far which means I can’t make any solid judgments until he’s appeared in more episodes, so I’ll have to wait and see. 

All in all, great episode! Definitely deserves to be in my top three. 

#2 Learning New Things About Ourselves

This episode made me feel so nostalgic. I freaking love puppets and grew up with Sesame Street and the Muppets, so I’m probably biased towards this episode but to me this is really one of the better written episodes. 

Perfect? Heck no. But really, really good. 

I love that we get to explore a bit more with Logan and Roman’s characters, in a lot of ways this is kind of a Logan episode which has him standing against the other Sides, and it’s really interesting to see just how different he is compared to the three of them and it could just be me but it seemed like he’s becoming more of an outsider and isn’t as close with the original four as he used to be, and this episode is what really kicks that idea off. 

I can also relate to the “Well that’s nice but what do you do for a living?” message, except in my case it’s more like I want to quit my “real job” to pursue what I’m passionate about while people tell me it’ll probably never happen or “Yeah that’s a nice hobby!” So this episode really struck close to home and I just have a lot of sentimental feelings towards this one. 

I love all of the designs for the puppets, they all just fit perfectly and I wouldn’t mind seeing them make a comeback one day. I know that’d be difficult since they’d need a professional to puppet them but hey, one can dream right?

And oh my gosh the song, it just gives off the same feel from Sesame Street and Muppet songs with it’s jazzy feel. And I won’t lie I flipped my lid when Logan and Thomas were in the same shot together. We hadn’t seen any of the Sides share the screen with Thomas yet and the fact that it was Logan, and he was arguing with Thomas and they were singing over each other? Ah I love it!

Also don’t get me started on how Logan’s bit in the song sounds more villainous than the others. I’m not saying anything just a neat little observation. 

I have a lot of happy feelings attached to this episode, so despite the few problems I have with it I could never bring myself to hate it. The only one that tops it is...

#1 Can Lying Be Good?

The episode that started it all. The one that caught my attention and sparked my new fixation on this little series that I had just glossed over before.

I really don’t know what prompted me to watch this episode, other than I wasn’t in the best place and it just happened to pop into my recommendations one day and I figured, “Huh, haven’t watched this guy for awhile. Let’s see what he’s been up to.”

Once the episode was finished my first thought was “Holy shit when did this series start having lore?!”

This episode is probably the closest thing to perfect out of all the season two episodes so far. The writing is clever, pretty much all of the jokes land, and oh my gosh the editing in this one is phenomenal. 

The way they show Roman shifting between himself and Joan throughout the episode is what sticks out the most. Having Roman’s voice coming from Joan, or having them briefly change back to Roman, I love it so much. 

Not to mention Thomas’s ever changing shirt that reflects what he’s thinking/feeling is a neat little detail.

Did I mention this episode is hilarious? The ridiculousness of each scenario that they act out, with all the little inputs from Logan and Virgil who are both trying their best to do their jobs besides not even wanting to be part of it in the first place is adorable. 

And of course, the man of the hour, Deceit. Or Janus as we now know him as. 

Is it weird that I like Deceit more as a name? Probably, but that’s just because I don’t like how early his name was revealed. 

Okay that was my last negative comment. Promise.

Now since I hadn’t watched Sanders Sides in a while I didn’t notice anything off about “Patton” during my first watch. But going back after seeing the rest of the series helped me catch all the little hints they added to clue in the audience that something wasn’t right. 

A lot of it is really subtle, mostly in the acting department, but once you’ve caught on to everything it makes you wonder how you didn’t notice the first time. You can even see Logan and Virgil throughout the episode, knowing that something is off with “Patton” but holding back their concerns until Virgil finally calls Deceit out. 

I’ve rewatched Deceit’s reveal so many times. When he finally drops the act after Thomas makes up his mind not to lie, you can just tell he no longer cares whether Thomas knows or not. Then things get even more tense when Logan is silenced, and everyone knows what’s going on except Thomas. 

The music starts to build up, Thomas is flipping out, then after Deceit taunts him again he finally demands to know what’s going on and BAM there he is!

I love everything about this. 

Like, what else can I say? This episode is brilliant. It really shows exactly what this team is capable of when they’re at their best. The pacing, the build up, the writing, all of it combined together to make the perfect episode.

Season Two has been, interesting. The long waits have caused some problems with the pacing and characters, not to mention the departure of Joan from the writing team with new writers entering the room, not to mention the first welcome now unwelcome arrival of Asides, and with only the season finale left before season three, it makes me wonder just where this series is headed.

I know this series is capable of doing incredible things, season one is still solid and it really holds up even after all this time. But season two just feels like a jumbled mess. Sure, it’s easy to enjoy the episodes individually, but once you try to fit them all together it’s like trying to jam a puzzle piece into a place where it doesn’t fit. 

The best way to describe this season is as an experimental season. Each episode has the team trying something new, sometimes it seems these gimmicks take precedence over the story itself. Of course, some of these can work to the episode’s advantage, while others are just distracting and you’d know you wouldn’t miss them if they were gone. 

It’s a mixed bag that’s for sure. One that has me watching in morbid curiosity as I wait to see whether it’ll crash in the end or blow my expectations out of the water. It really is fun to analyze these episodes, and yes I know I can be very harsh but believe it or not this is how I engage with media that I love.

My hope is that team will learn from season two and try to take a more simple approach with their production once season three roles around. Because if they continue at the same pace they are now I doubt there will be many people around to see this series through. 

And on that note, that was my ranking of season two! I’m actually kinda excited now to go back and rewatch everything, I hope I don’t have to wait much longer to do so but that all depends on when the season two finale comes. Whether it ends up exceeding my expectations or just being “meh” I know it’ll be interesting regardless and I can’t wait to see just how they plan on wrapping this all up before the final season arrives. 

#dukeofrankings #dukeofcritical #this one post spawned so many future posts #i'm gonna be a busy onion

[flying-elliska]

S5 Review pt 2 : the Bad

So in my last meta I listed a lot of reasons to like this season...but then why did it not (at least to me) all add up together ?  Looking back, I can think of so many clips that I thought were incredible. But looking back at the season in general, I just feel a big ‘meh’ and it’s sort of puzzling - why exactly ?  Here is where I thought the season could have been a lot better :

I loathe love triangles : I hate the trope in itself. Is S5 the worst example of it ever ? No, it served somewhat of a thematic purpose and the resolution was interesting. But I can’t help it, when I feel a love triangle coming on, I generally disconnect emotionally because I have been annoyed to hell and back by it before - one big offender being Skam France s4, in which the love triangle/quadrangle marked the beginning of the season going down in flames, with it overshadowing everything else and making the characters behave in completely obnoxious and puzzling ways. S5 isn’t quite as bad, it feels more respectful of the characters, but I find it weird that the writers chose a love triangle again on the heels of the reception of s4. 

The problem with this trope is not ‘oh we don’t want drama ever’ it’s just so bloody annoying, so trite and overused. It rests on centuries of sexist tropes : either a wishy washy girl in the middle who doesn’t know what’s good for her/her own heart ; or two girls competing for a man’s attentions. It often ends in the fandom villifying the women involved no matter the shape of the triangle, comparing them against each other, which definitely happened this time (Twitter was just so annoying this season), and this whole ‘team x’ thing gives me hives, as the assumption that this is what young women viewers care most about. 

Also it generally involves the characters showing that they have very little self respect, letting themselves be walked over, bad communication, implications about what the ‘better woman/man’ should be like, cheating, etc...it’s very rarely fun or interesting to watch because we’ve seen it a thousand times before in teenage soap operas. Again, the s5 ending avoided the total trainwreck but this is a show you watch in real time, and for weeks I was afraid it was going to be absolutely terrible, and it ruined a big part of my experience of the season. When they introduced Noée I started being scared, and when it became clear Arthur was developing feelings for her, I basically noped out emotionally. I started following it in a much more detached manner, I wasn’t looking forward to the clips anymore, I stopped writing meta so much. And it sucks. I wanted to love the season. But this was just not a ride I really wanted to be on. 

Alexia (and Noee) deserved better : I love Alexia and developing her character is one of the best things Skam France ever did. In OG, the character of Chris, if interesting, is just continually reduced to the ‘funny fat friend’ persona and it really sucks. So giving Alexia a real personality, making her bisexual, giving her more of a role in s3, making her a dancer and a singer was really cool. I’m bi myself and I spent most of my high school struggling with my weight and if I’d had a character like her, who radiates self-acceptance, it would have meant so much to me. I was really stoked for her to have more of a role in s5 - only to spend most of the season feeling really sad for her. It was just...not fun. I so wish she could have had her own season and her own story that didn’t revolve around a dude she was so supportive of and still ended up treating her like shit. 

Also, real talk : when is a curvy girl actually a love interest without it being shown as funny or not good enough ? Especially of the main character ? Almost never. Coline might have lost some weight, but she’s still written as a curvy girl this season and it’s an important part of the character. So for her to have this particular role this season - the girl that isn’t romanticized, that doesn’t get to have the cute and thrilling moments, that is just sort of there and patient and understanding as if she couldn’t get anything better, it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Sure the end of the season did her more justice but god it took so long and in the meantime, it just felt...very ill considered and careless. 

In the same way, I wanted to love Noée, I thought she was amazing, but because of her role in the plot I just felt this instinctive defiance towards her character. It would have been so cool to have her in a friend role, or even a love interest outside of the triangle or I don’t know like...have someone else fall in love with her. Also, I just did not understand why she loved Arthur ? Like she just met the dude a few times, and he’s mostly been a total asshole to her, who makes very little efforts to communicate with her...I get she could get attracted to him but love ??? The moment where she tells him ‘I love you’ felt demeaning to her, like the moment in OG where Noora falls after running after William. It’s like, Arthur has just been an enormous asshole to her, and she pushes herself to do something she’s never been comfortable with in the first place ? Why ? This show romanticizes teenage boys being assholes and girls being desperate way too much. 

The Skam dilemma, love vs politics and “Let’s all just be nice.” : There is a reoccuring problem accross all Skams, starting with the OG : they bring up very political topics, usually in the beginning of the season, and then they...don’t really do anything with them. In the OG, Noora’s feminism is really just window-dressing and we see her bend over backwards to accomodate this super toxic asshole into her life. And we see Sana’s struggles as a Muslim in Norwegian society, but then love drama takes over, and it’s waved away with an insulting ‘everyone should just communicate more’ ending. Skamfr s4 made it even worse, by making the girl squad a lot more overtly racist, never having them make a big gesture for Imane, putting her in a position to apologize, and never showing that the girl squad had an idea of where they messed up or real growth. It was insanely frustrating, especially since the beginning of the season was so good at showing all the little micro-agressions. In the end it felt like all the racism was just there to motivate Imane’s breakdown for plot reasons and not to actually say something. S5 never stoops quite that low, but there was a bit of a similar dynamic at hand here. Instead of the boys actually have a real conversation after their fight, most of the denouement of the show was consecrated to talking about the love drama. It was, again, as if the focus of the show was on the wrong things, and it robs you of the catharsis you’re expecting. As if they used the love drama for a metaphor for the actual issues, have it do all the emotional heavy lifting, and in so doing bypass having to adress the actual problem. There is this weird ideas that the audience of the show - teenagers and young women, mostly, in the end care the most about the love stuff and that everything else has to take a backseat and...this feels neither a good message to send, nor realistic to me. I like it when shows about teenagers decenter love and show the real complexity of their characters’ lives without making them paragons of virtue or wokeness - Derry Girls is a brilliant example of that. Skam, and Skam France in particular, feel a bit immature still compared to those, punching below their weight for shows that pride themselves on their social impact. 

Hit with the idiot stick : Speaking of underwhelming resolutions - yes, the boy squad messing up with Arthur, I found relevant and realistic. But...did they really even adress it ? I was really hoping for the boys to have more of a conversation, for Arthur to open up to them about what he went through, about his father, to tell them that they should have asked him/listened to him more, etc...and I know ‘teenage boys’ or whatever but ...aren’t they trying to change those stereotypes too ? Like when Arthur went to see Basile, they must have had a conversation, why the fuck did we not see it ? That’s the emotional bond I cared most about ! And we just had a hug ...underwhelming tbh. Same Arthur talking with Lucas but then it was just about their love lives ? Or when they came to the hospital, again, it was just about the love drama ? God it really sucked out the oxygen out of the season. The resolutions of those things just being hugs or speeches or handholding at the end felt hollow, and a lot less powerful than they could have been. And again, there has to be a tolerance for messiness, but I found the boys so incredibly dumb at several points in the season. Especially them being like ‘oh cheating isn’t so bad’ after they found out that Arthur’s dad was cheating on his wife ? Like why the fuck did they take Patrick’s side ? What kind of lack of empathy ? It would feel a lot more coherent for teenage boys to be furious at the destruction of a friend’s family, not talk like cynical 50 yr olds who just divorced for the fifth time. It felt so unrealistic and stupid and just meant for Arthur to finally clue in to the idea that cheating and lying is bad maybe, himself first without external clues from characters that really should have known better by now. Especially Yann and Lucas advising Arthur to keep his mouth shut after what happened in s1 like...did whoever write this read the previous seasons of the show ? There were just too many times where the boy squad felt out of character and mandated to be idiots just for plot reasons, and it felt...very crudely drawn. Disappointing, because the beginning of the season was awesome. But again, Skam France failed in delivering real growth for their friend group. At times, it even felt like character regression. Them holding hands at the end of the season made me emo but damn it could have been so much more.

Also some plot twists - the car crash in particular, just felt dumb and unnecessary, seriously. 

A too distant main : In the end, like I said before, my main issue is that I didn’t feel as connected to Arthur as I wanted to. I mean, the cheating bit was just very unrelatable to me, after how they showed how supportive Alexia was and how she supposedly made him happy like...why. But maybe that’s just me. Regardless - in the first few episodes he felt distant in an interesting way, because it made sense for his character to be so walled off. But...I felt like his self discovery was way too blurred with the ‘oh I like Noee’ part to the point where it ended up being obscured. I would have loved more clips on his own, maybe something more about him questioning his path in life, whether he truly wants to do medecine. And like apparently he liked fine arts ? Then, why didn’t we see anything about that ? Did he paint the x-men painting ??? That feels so relevant, why the fuck didn’t we see that ? Also why didn’t we see him take those LSF classes with Camille and actually make an effort this time ? Having almost all of his realization moments tied to Noee was just...the manic pixie dream girl trope. That’s what it’s called, when you use a quirky female character as a device for the emotional development of the male one. It’s...not flattering tbh. And then that farm episode - it was funny but for a week I felt like I completely lost touch with Arthur’s POV ? I’m really not sure that was the right choice. All in all, there were just not enough introspective, small, intimate clips for it to really feel like Skam, and that’s a shame tbh. I recognize a lot of myself in Arthur, and Robin acted his heart out to make him relatable, but because of the writing, there were way too many times where I was reluctant and puzzled instead of in it. I saw several people saying it was too much tell and not enough show and I think that’s very on point. I feel like a lot of Arthur’s actual character development happened behind the scenes in moments where we didn’t see it.  

Yeah...I think as a conclusion most of my issues are tied back to the preponderance of the love triangle. The season wasn’t bad but god it could have been so excellent if they hadn’t gone that route, and this swerve from greatness is just sooooooo frustrating. I don’t think it’s enough to condemn the whole season but...

Next up : some things I’m just very ??? about and a general conclusion. 

Bonus bitching round, fandom edition : oh my god, I don’t get into this often but...the fandom was so bloody annoying this season. Starting with the people sending death threats over a tv show (like...what the fuck) or thinking them being nasty assholes is somehow for the greater good (???), from people that don’t want anyone to use even 1 analysis capacity (especially on Twitter) and go beyond praising everything on the show, or the people either villifying Alexia and Noee and indulging in that ‘team’ crap, to the people that shoot down every single detail of the show without discernment or accuse the creators of being ableist sexist garbage or maltreating their actors ... And then you have the other remake stans coming to pollute the tags talking about how we were all stupid for liking the show in the first place. Like...seriously, what is up with you people. I really loved the block button this season, damn. 

#skam france #skamfr s5 #my meta #arthur broussard #skam france meta

[growingpaynes-art]

Far From Home Initial Review: What I Liked and What I Didn’t (Spoilers)

I saw Far From Home yesterday and jotted down some of my immediate responses, and then took some time to think on those points. I do intend to see the film again in the next few days and I may be adding to or amending this list.

Major spoilers below.

(CW: sexual harassment, victim blaming)

What I Liked:

That scene in the jet where Happy stitches Peter up was A+. Not just regarding the expert acting, but how the filmmakers decided to handle the scene. Peter’s fear, stress, and self doubt briefly shifts to anger, and he snaps at Happy for telling him to “relax.” He immediately apologizes, saying “i’m sorry, I shouldn't shout.” Happy in return responds by choosing his words more carefully. Happy then gives him a gentle and encouraging pep talk in which he recognizes Peter’s emotions, encourages him, and explains that he doesn’t need to live up to the legacy of Iron Man and that he only needs to do his best. He remains on task and pragmatic, but never rushes Peter or forces him to do anything he’s not comfortable doing, offering support all the while. 

Peter is allowed to cry at several points throughout the film in front of other male characters, including Nick Fury and Happy. He is never judged for this and he is never made to feel like his emotions are unreasonable or invalid. Continuing this from the previous films even as Peter gets older and takes on more responsibilities further normalizes male emotion in action films. 

Peter consistently voices his concerns and asks for help instead of overwhelming himself and internalizing.

Peter was noticeably shorter than MJ in most of their scenes together, including where they kiss or hold hands. Peter’s height is never made into the butt of a joke, which I had feared might happen. No one even mentions it. Marvel did have Tom wear shoes that made him a little taller than he actually is, but I do appreciate that they didn’t drastically increase his height like they always did to RDJ. 

JK Simmons returning as J Jonah Jameson was a great surprise, and it gives me hope that we may yet see Peter as a photographer

Peter walking out from behind that car carrying a sign and a light as a reference to Steve wielding the shield and mjolnir.

Peter calling his dick his “webshooter”

MJ stepping in and providing some real help several times throughout the movie 

The movies on the flight to Venice “Heart of Iron: The Tony Stark Story,” “Chasing Hydra” etc

The terribly edited movie maker tribute set to “I Will Always Love You” with “in memoriam” in comic sans was the funniest possible way to open the film

Bucky being included in the Thank You Avengers collage in the Midtown Tech news video

Mr. Harrington and Mr. Dell were definitely dating and i’m here for it. 

Seeing Peter fight without a suit was cool. I’ve always thought there was a kind of disconnect when characters like spiderman or black panther fight with their masks on, like they feel separate from the actors. But seeing Peter fight in his civilian clothing made it feel more real to me that this kid really has these powers and can do all these amazing flips and feats of strength. It also let us see more of his creativity and quick thinking.

I’m impressed that they were able to make Mysterio’s mo-cap suit look cool instead of completely ridiculous like they do in real life.

Peter closing his eyes and fighting the drones with his spidey-sense to avoid the illusions was so badass. 

The violence felt real. Every time Peter got hit, the audience felt it. Several times he was unable to stand up, he limped and winced and cried. It felt like the consequences of such heavy action were realistically considered when Peter couldn’t just pop back up and shake it off. 

"If you were better, maybe Tony would still be alive” “You’re just a scared little kid in a sweatsuit” 

“You got me?” “I got you.”

“lets get a drink” “i’m- i’m not 21.”

Peter going to a parent figure wearing an oversized shirt and crying while confessing his self-doubts was an oddly specific parallel that i didn’t expect to get again but i’m certainly not complaining

What I Didn’t:

The “rest stop hookup” scene was deeply inappropriate. Peter, a child, is commanded to undress in front of an adult female agent. He initially resists but is intimidated into compliance when she repeats the order. One of Peter’s classmates, Brad, walks into the room and Peter is literally caught with his pants around his ankles with an adult stranger. Brad makes the assumption that Peter is hooking up with her, and takes a photo for evidence with the intention of showing it to MJ in order to ruin Peter’s “chance” with her. Peter is blamed for a situation in which he is the victim, and the audience is meant to find this entire scene funny. Instead of what could have been a really cool scene in which this agent presents the new suit she’s made for Peter, we are given this very uncomfortable scene of sexual harassment played for laughs.

Peter and Brad competing for MJ’s affection and actively sabotaging each other is unnecessary. 

The use of old footage from previous films was lazy, especially when Marvel could have easily recreated those scenes from the perspectives of the new antagonists. I’ve always found this distracting, especially when the quality noticeably drops between two clips, though this is more of a personal peeve than anything I see as a legitimate problem.

The list of characters who become villains because they feel personally or indirectly slighted by Tony and Howard is getting too big. Honestly I think it’s lazy to keep using that as backstory/motivation for new villains after over 10 years, especially now that Tony isn’t even alive.

The multiverse being made up by Beck was disappointing.

The monsters being the Elementals instead of Sandman or Hydroman was also disappointing.

I wish that the spidey-sense was represented by some creative audio or visual cue, like the goosebumps in iw or the ringing noise in spiderverse

There were several lgbt characters/actors on the class trip but they weren’t very visible. You really don’t notice them at all unless you were aware of who was cast beforehand and were watching closely for them. I’m not asking for Peter to swing through new york with a rainbow flag screaming “trans rights” but I would have liked to have seen a queer couple holding hands or a student with a trans patch on their backpack or something. I had been hoping for Peter to actually interact with one of them, to refer to them by name. Obviously having such a diverse cast with queer characters being played by actual queer actors is a huge step up from Joe Russo’s “grieving man” but like that shouldn’t be where the bar is at this point. 

Tbh the headstone and zombie iron man were cliche, and i think it would have been much more impactful if Mysterio had made an allusion of Tony himself instead.

Why would Dr Strange not be available to fight massive elemental monsters from another dimension bent on consuming the earth like dude make yourself available??

I wish the new suit included Karen so that we could see how she and Peter’s interactions have changed now that he is expertly familiar with the functions of the suits. Additionally, the spider-drone would have been cool to see again.

The illusion to Uncle Ben with the “BFP” initials on Peter’s suitcase was great but I do wish we could get some actual information about him. We don’t need to see his death or the “with great power comes great responsibility” speech- we’ve already seen that enough times- but a little clarification on what officially happened to him in the mcu would be interesting. 

Honestly I thought it was too convenient that May, Happy, and all of Peter’s closest friends also dusted. I had wanted to see how interactions between Peter and May or friends such as Ned would be tested emotionally due to the five-year gap.

The BARF tech being invented by Beck and stolen by Tony detracts from it being used in Civil War to establish Tony’s feelings about Howard and Maria’s murders. If it isn’t Tony’s invention, that takes the heart out of it. 

I had really hoped that the glasses were going to end up revealing Tony as an AI, or at least some kind of message from him, and i thought was weird that Tony would give Peter access to a system that allows him to order drone strikes on his classmates.

Also...  so the drone strike on peter’s bus was faked by Mysterio’s team because they needed to get the EDITH glasses from Peter? Because the EDITH glasses give them access to the satellite that deploys the drones? But they already have the same drones? and use one them to fake the bus attack? so why do they need EDITH? Maybe i missed something but that makes no sense to me. 

#ffh #far from home #spiderman far from home #far from home spoilers #spoilers #spiderman far from home spoilers #ffh review #spiderman

[comicteaparty]

April 18th-April 24th, 2020 Creator Babble Archive

The archive for the Creator Babble  chat that occurred from April 18th, 2020 to April 24th, 2020.  The chat focused on the following question:

What are your personal rules of thumb for determining whether a certain page needs a maturity or trigger warning?

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

i have no rule of thumb and i'm really curious to read what other people think about this

Deo101 [Millennium]

I usually ask people if they think it needs one, and I only ask if it is significantly different than what I've been doing.

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

I guess it depends on the subject and the severity. There are the basic ones, like rape, excessive gore, suicide, graphic sex, common phobias, etc. Things that can very easily trigger a large group of people or are generally not allowed in PG-13 movies. But there are other times I don't know if putting a warning or labeling it as mature is necessary. For example, profanity, suggestive material, violence (that doesn't involve gore), and again typically things that can make it into a PG-13 movie. Once it starts to be graphic enough to move into the realm of rated R, that's when you should start putting warnings. My problem with warnings as a creator is that the warnings can kind of spoil the contents of the chapter, so I try not to use them unless what happens in the comic could potentially harm a large number of people by not warning them.

RebelVampire

As a reader I do want to chime in say I agree with that last part. Whenever I see warnings, they are very spoilery so there's no surprise when I get to the warning part of the chapter/episode/page. I expected it so it loses some of its emotional value for me. Or, on the flipside, is so minor it shouldn't have had a warning that its ultimately underwhelming and disappointing.

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Yeah, that's exactly why I'm wary about it

I am very sparing with my warnings, because I don't want the readers to lose any of that emotional impact.

carcarchu

my target audience for my webcomic is middle schoolers so the content i produce is never something i feel i need to put trigger warnings for. personally i think you don't really need to tag things unless the content is significantly different from what is expected from the comic. like if it starts out a lighthearted romp and then suddenly there's beserk levels of violence that probably ought to have some warning

Eilidh (Lady Changeling)

I would probably put a CW for blood, gore etc. Of any level just to be safe. Different people have different sensitivities, and as a sex-averse ace I know I often would like CW on sexual/sex-adjacent content that others might not think was enough to need one so. I just err on the side of caution

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I specifically never put warnings in anything I write. If something I write deeply upsets someone or makes them extremely uncomfortable, that's a good thing. It means I've done my job in expressing and conveying the emotional context I set out to accomplish in most circumstances.

My background is poetry and I've only ever read a single book that had any warnings attached, and that was at the beginning of the book, not for each poem. Even then, it was from an author who was particularly, er, well a bit off their rocker.

Like, if you open a collection of poetry and you're surprised to see heavy topics covered...that's your own fault at that point.

If I had opened one of my favourite collections, The Flame by Leonard Cohen, and saw content warnings, I would have probably said in my head "Why the fuck is this here?" and "Well, no shit that's in here, this is Leonard Cohen."(edited)

My job is to convey and express regardless of what the reader might think. It's never my job to guide or warn them, it's my job to present to them.

Fiction, outside of that catered to younger audiences, tends to contain a lot of stuff that can be deeply uncomfortable to the reader (yes, even comedy). I've read stuff that's really gotten to me emotionally, and that's OK, that's a good thing, the author presented what they intended to (G-d knows they did). If you don't want that, then really, you just have to be cognizant of the fiction you're reading and remember that stories about life often have all aspects of life in them.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I have read things (though mostly non-fiction) that have made me want to cry or so sick that I felt the need to vomit. The author didn't warn me of that. They presented what they had without pretext nor excuse. They did their job. Those are very much extremes, but the point is that I consensually opened those texts knowing that might happen. I mean, it's not hard to look at the subject matter or what the reviews say and think "Hm, OK, this book isn't all sugar and roses". Frankly, though, I just feel that the content warnings and all tarnish the authenticity of a text that stands on its own.

Sorry for the rambling, but admittedly, I do include a content warning for that in my username!

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

I don‘t do content warnings, but I try to make sure to be upfront about the type of story people can expect.

Seen the results of someone springing a graphic, surprise character-gets-raped-to-death into until then fluffy childfriendly story for „trolololOLOL, I made you have a FEEL, I am an ARTISTE.“

It‘s disrespectful to the reader at best, after all they need to be able to make an informed decision if they opt in or not.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Alright, that's plain bad writing, but dramatic tone shifts can and are used effectively.

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

I thought about content warning because I have seen comics that was upsetting to me and readers, and there was no trigger warning. Just a side note in the first chapter that the author explain that 'their characters' weren't a representation of every trans experience. But still had backlash for it. So some content warning when it comes to sensitive stuff like trauma, gender disphoria should be stated somewhere? I wasn't Trans but effected, I assume it was worse for trans readers seeing uncomfortable scenes that remind them of bad experiences.(edited)

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

When I was younger, I used to be into a lot of animated stuff, and there was this one anime (don't judge, I was like fourteen) called Steins;Gate that, for the first half, is relatively comedic and lighthearted, before a very dramatic tone-shift in one episode where most of the main cast die on-screen and it becomes a conspiracy/time-travel thriller. It was actually very, very good, and it's an incredibly popular show because of it.

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

Yeah. I think this is what content warnings are coming from: trying to enable the reader to make an informed decision of they wanna opt in to a story or not. It‘s a matter of consent.

They‘re not perfect, but better than nothing.

Eilidh (Lady Changeling)

I agree with @chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa] here on the point that it's about being able to knowingly consent to a potentially unpleasant experience

Deo101 [Millennium]

Honestly I'd rather have a small spoiler at the end of the page before Something happens than potentially hurt someone

Again, only if it's really tonally dissonant

Eilidh (Lady Changeling)

There's plenty of things I don't mind if I'm aware of it beforehand so I can make sure I'm in a good headspace, but the same things could totally put me off a story/creator and give me issues for months if I wasn't expecting them

Source: personal experience

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Webcomics are probably very different, but I'd find it would put me off a lot in poetry (and it's also something you don't see in it; it's just not a part of the industry culture). But people having negative emotions from reading is very commonplace and par for the course.(edited)

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

But I also feel that content warning do give away bit of spoiler. I was taught the good way to protray an incoming dark topic is to give hints along the chapters, rather than 'spring it out of the blue'. I haven't written anything super dark/angst before though. It's uncomfortable for me and I haven't cross that threshold of feeling yet(edited)

Eilidh (Lady Changeling)

Personally I feel like if your story or scene or whatever relies so heavily on the shock of specific content that it would be ruined by the "spoiler" potential of a content warning, it's bad writing

Deo101 [Millennium]

I feel like stories in general are not ruined by spoilers, though some people don't like them. But if we're in a scene and we're gonna see someone get cut in half and you say "hey this battle has extreme violence" that's hardly a spoiler

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Not always. Shock, if it's not in bad taste, can be used as a device to help set the emotional context for the rest of the passage. It's bad writing to use it bombastically and haphazardly, but in light touches, like a ghost pepper, it can help. On its own, though, yeah it's usually bad writing.

Deo101 [Millennium]

Since comics are visual there is more need for this kind of a thing because it can be more intense for readers

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Ah, yeah, that's true. My field doesn't have visuals.

I can imagine it may be different in that case.

Deo101 [Millennium]

Also, think like. Movies also have this, that's what the rating system is

A movie rated r for extreme violence isn't a spoiler

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Especially if it has Tom Cruise in it.

RebelVampire

Yes but imagine if the movie paused right before the worst parts to say "Hey this is gonna be a mature scene"

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

Age ratings ARE content warnings.

Deo101 [Millennium]

Tv shows do it at the beginning of an episode

And, with comics you have natural pauses

Putting a small banner at the bottom of an update doesn't interrupt the flow the same way putting it at the top of one would, and it can prep people to know not to even open the next update kind of thing

I haven't done content warnings my content is only pg13 but I've thought a lot about it for future, more intense ideas

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

In Germany‘s there are no tv show content warnings, but certain stuff can only be aired after 20:30 or on dedicated channels.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I agree with @RebelVampire . In my favourite movie of all time by far which you 100% have to watch (IT'S REALLY GOOD!!!) On the Waterfront, there's one scene which really gut-punched me when I first watched it because it's, well, fairly disturbing, but if the movie stopped before it and some dude came up and said "B'ys, cover your children's eyes", that'd be ridiculous. Age warnings pre-screening are fine because it's an audiovisual form, but considering that text doesn't have that visual or audio component, I just don't see the need. I can understand why you would do it as a comic artist, though.

Deo101 [Millennium]

There are also, for movies and TV, sites like "does the dog die?" Which provide this kind of information for people with triggers. Comics don't have this kind of a site though so it's on the creator

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

That reminds me, I need to put Nyx+Nyssa‘s age rating note up. g

Eilidh (Lady Changeling)

People with triggers are the sticking point for me. Even if most people would be okay, there's people who won't be and I don't want to act like they don't matter when I'm putting warnings on my content. I feel like it's my responsibility if I'm making that content.

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

Yup. I know someone with cPTSD who cannot engage with media without content warnings; because disassociation is NOT fun and dangerous. „Does the dog die“ and similiar things mean she can engage with media without having to rope in others as betas.

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yes, same here. Obviously you can't warn for everything, many people have obscure and specific triggers, but there are common ones that are generally sensitive subjects that I don't think it's bad to warn a bit about

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I don't think it is your responsibility, but rather those with triggers to be careful. I'm a trauma victim and I do have triggers, but you know, I can't expect everyone to know that (especially with how hilariously specific they are). If you're worried, do your research

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

There‘s a huge difference between being responsible of for someone and being mindful for someone.

Eilidh (Lady Changeling)

As someone who has triggers as well - I'd prefer to be able to see at a glance. It's awful having to be on guard constantly and worried about what if you didn't do your research quite well enough

Deo101 [Millennium]

I personally only read comics on reccomendation because of mine

They're not common ones but I've never been annoyed by trigger warnings that aren't for me

It usually looks much different from the comic so you can just quick look and scroll past

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I really understand that and I can understand it in the context of your industry because it has that visual component, but in the context of mine it's not done because content warnings wouldn't really make much sense for my industry. What will annoy me is when trigger warnings are uploaded for every part of the webcomic. Like, that's a little extreme.

Eilidh (Lady Changeling)

I understand it's very different context for poetry - but I'm talking about comics

Deo101 [Millennium]

I would agree that uploading for every page would be extreme, but I would think I'm that case it would be at the start of the comic or in the description

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

About pages! They exist for a reason.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

At the beginning of the entire comic, if you want to, that's fine. I think it does change the mindset of the reader and can be detrimental to the story in some cases, but if you know it's not, then that's fine! Of course, that problem can be solved just like @chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa] just suggested: put it on the About page.

Yeah, no, I could get behind that.

For webcomics, I think that would be a good solution.

Deo101 [Millennium]

Some sites don't offer about pages, though, and if it's not a major theme and only in a small part it's nice to put it in the comic itself too

Like my comic is generally very light-hearted but coming up I do have a scene that's significantly more violent than the rest of the comic has been, and I debated whether or not to warn my readers about it

I don't want to put a violence warning in my description though because it would draw the wrong audience

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I mean, it really depends. If it's suddenly looks like the notes of a medical student, then put a warning, but some light violence is probably fine.

Others could probably give a better opinion on that though.

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

Yup. I liked how dumbing of age handled it‘s suicide warning - it was specific to that particular page because it dealt with specific details as opposed the more general discussion. So that page got a small note on top. Didn‘t remove the emotional impact, but allowed people to brace themselves or opt out.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Page the Poet refuses content warnings and enjoys their readers' suffering (/s).

All jokes aside, what do you mean about some sites not offering About pages? I'm not well-versed on hosting web-comics.

Deo101 [Millennium]

Well, for instance with webtoons you have a 500 (?) Character description, and that's it

Maybe it's 1500 or something idk it's been a while since I wrote mine. But it's not a seperate page like how I would have on my own site

On your own site it's awesome cause people can just, if they have triggers they can go there to see jf they're fine to read

But with webtoons, tapas, and other hosts you get one page and it's just your comic and description

So putting "violence warning" there is much different than on a seperate page

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I thought most web-comics had their own site?

Deo101 [Millennium]

I mean I do, but many don't

And most readers these days are on hosts I think

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Oh. Yeah, alright, I see the issue.

Deo101 [Millennium]

My description says pg13, LGBT, and slowburn and that's all it gets from me. I would be more descriptive in my about page which I do still need to code

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I'm curious, why specify the LGBT part?

Deo101 [Millennium]

But yeah so it's a very case by case basis depending on where you are and all that

Oh because I want lgbt people to know my comic has an LGBT cast and is catered to them

It's so my comic more likely finds my target audience

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

OH.

carcarchu

i think about stuff like school live and bokurano and consider that i'd be really upset if the sudden dramatic shift in tone was overtly warned beforehand because the shock factor was so important for those series in particular so i don't know how to handle warnings for stuff like that

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

That makes sense.

Please excuse my idiocy haha.

Deo101 [Millennium]

Not idiocy, it's a lot of potential to learn ;)

Carcarchu, it's really a personal choice of the author and what they want. If you don't wanna do it cause you think your story would suffer, that's totally fine. But personally and a lot of other creators agree, id rather potentially risk a slight decrease of my impact to protect some people.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

You see, in poetry, it works like this: you find a journal that suits your poetry, you submit it, you don't get published, and you cry yourself to sleep. Repeat twenty odd times until you get accepted somewhere. Then, you get published there and you tend not to worry about target audiences and stuff yourself. 'Tis a foreign world to me!

RebelVampire

Yeah I agree that I think at the end its a personal choice cause you'll never please everyone whether you do or don't use warnings

carcarchu

i'm thinking about my experience reading those two series and being blown away by the sudden tone shift and really liking one of those series because of it. but then i think about my experience with madoka where i actually started watching it BECAUSE i saw a spoiler about the twist and it piqued my interest. i still enjoyed madoka but i wonder how my experience with it would have been different if i went in blind

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

@carcarchu , I'm with you. It really depends on what you can do, I think. If it's available to those who need it without expressly being there for those who don't want spoilers (An optional CW of sorts), that could work.

carcarchu

i like the idea of optional cw

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I don't know if it's an idea that could work, though, as I'm not experienced with web-comics. @Deo101 [Millennium] , your thoughts?

Deo101 [Millennium]

On a personally coded site you could probably with a lot of effort make something like that work, but that's not really so much an option on hosts

Tapas has a mature toggle where that specific page says "this contains mature content" or something, but everyone sees it

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

If it's personally coded, it should be fairly easy with a small bit of javascript, right?

Deo101 [Millennium]

And for other sites it's not an option at all other than for the entire series as a before you enter sort of deal

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I personally would put warnings Because some chapters deal with traumatic subject matter and I’ve had friends see them and warn me about those However I wouldn’t just do content warnings for something like swearing

Deo101 [Millennium]

I don't think you could code it easily, at least not with the systems I'm using.

Again the best solution I've come up with is at the end of the previous update, so people can skip over it easier and it doesn't interrupt flow the same way

carcarchu

the easiest way to do it on smth like webtoons would just to put some text on ur page that says something like "optional content warning for the next page in description, read at your own risk" but again that would spoil a potential twist

Deo101 [Millennium]

Honestly like Doesn't the twist just happen at the warning then instead of at the panel

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I think the real solution is to just not write anything.

Deo101 [Millennium]

Like it's not spoiling it it's just moving it a few lines up

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Don't even write the webcomic. Best solution.

Deo101 [Millennium]

And content warnings don't say who or how

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Perfection.

carcarchu

i might be miffed if i read TWIST INCOMING and then had to wait a week to actually see it

Deo101 [Millennium]

Just a general, vague, "what"

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Say there's triggering content, but don't say where or what. Put it on the last page too.

carcarchu

but it could potentially drum up interest like WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN NEXT WEEK

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah that's what I mean

carcarchu

idk could go either way

Deo101 [Millennium]

Not like there's a twist!

Just hey things get intense

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I don't know, it could still be triggering. I think we should just write no webcomic at all.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Hmmmmm I never thought of that

But what if people forget about the trigger and just jump right in

carcarchu

if they forget the trigger isn't that their fault and not the creator?

Deo101 [Millennium]

People who have the trigger will remember

carcarchu

they were given ample warning

Deo101 [Millennium]

And if they do not then I did what I could

Sorry but I have a specific trigger of people watching someone sleep, I've had two people warn me their comics include it, and I remember. And that was like a year ago

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

My stupid sense of humour aside, I do agree with Deo and Carcarchu. If you forget the trigger, that's your own fault. The author making that information available is one thing, but they aren't there to hold your hand.

carcarchu

oh man that's a super common trope deo that must be rough

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah but it's cool

Like I know it's a common trope and it's not really one you can see coming or anything :/ so it's cool

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I think warnings are helpful tho if u be general like it contains a thing but u dont kno what it is till u read it

Like doe me it was doki doki lit club i didn't took seriously till it hit me and im like O

carcarchu

with dokidoki i knew about there WAS a twist but i didn't know exactly what it is so i was still shocked by it when it happened

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah like "Graphic violence" isn't a spoiler especially if you're already like 3 pages into a fight scene

carcarchu

but again they warned about it pretty vigilantly in the beginning before u play dokidoki? i'm not really sure how you could miss it?

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Yeah.

In all seriousness, I like the About page option / optional CW, but I realize that might be impossible in a lot of scenarios.

Maybe put in the description of the first page "OPTIONAL CW BELOW" for example for those who want it?

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah, or the page before. Only concern is people not reading it, but then again that kind of falls under the "their responsibility" section

kayotics

I’ve put one warning in before, but I kept it to promo images (so like social media update images) and in the comic description a few pages before. My reasoning was: it was tonally different & darker from the rest of the comic, but I didn’t put the warning in the pages because of the reader is paying attention, the fact that its coming is pretty obvious. Who knows if I did the right thing it handled it correctly, but I really struggled with figuring out what to do

Deo101 [Millennium]

Another concern is that some comics will run for years, decades even, and so its sometimes impossible to know at the beginning what might need to be warned for.

I think that's good Kay.

It's unobtrusive and gives the people who need it what they need

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Optional warning on the page before, then?

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah that's what I said earlier I was kinda planning on doing if it ever became necessary

kayotics

That’s essentially what it was. I think I wrote a caveat that the warning was a spoiler

Deo101 [Millennium]

That makes sense

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Hmmm if you’re doing it on the page before How specific should the warning be

kayotics

I know a lot of people don’t read page descriptions, especially when binging, so I’m banking on the context of the chapter being the biggest warning

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Like do you just say optional warning?

kayotics

What I did is I said something about the the content of the next page without getting into too much detail

Deo101 [Millennium]

I see things like "warning: graphic violence, sexual content, substance abuse," etc. Stuff like that

kayotics

Yeah. Mine was graphic violence or gore or something

Deo101 [Millennium]

Where it doesn't say who or how or anything, just a vague what

Which usually, the context of the scene is around that kind of a theme anyways where we can tell it's coming

So a content warning is more like "this does get turned up to an 8 here"

Though it can be a surprise where Something like what Kay did is really good

Like okay so spoilers but be warned

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

B'y, turn it up to at least eleven. Go big or go home.

Deo101 [Millennium]

I'm on a 1-8 scale

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

But what about the saying? Heresy!

kayotics

I think in the context of my comic it felt like, to me, that I was turning it up to 8 from a 1 or 2. It’s not the MOST GRAPHIC thing I’ve ever seen, but with the entirety of the rest of the work it’s tonally different, which is why I needed the warning

My comic, at its worst, usually just sees some curses and cartoon violence.

This was, like, full on blood and gore

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I jumped straight into 12 at one point for mine whoops

kayotics

So I think context of the work is important with a warning as well

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah, I'm usually around a 1-2 too. I've got pg-13 in my description and if I'm ever toeing the edge of it, I'm gonna warn about it

kayotics

If you have a violent or heavy comic already, warnings for each page is ridiculous. It’s when you turn it up that you should mention something

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah exactly

DanitheCarutor

Aaah you know, I don't put warnings on my pages, because practically half the comic would have CWs due to the focus on upsetting themes. There was one instance where I did put one up for a page containing a lot of queerphobic language presented in a way that was jarring, and potentially triggering for people who've experienced something like that. Although I've somewhat regretted singling out that one page since the comic from that point only gets worse, in hindsight that one instance isn't bad enough to warrant a warning. I'll probably take it down once I stop being lazy. In general I feel a page-by-page warning is best for comics that don't normally have heavy stuff, it makes sense to warning for violence if that's not a normal thing in your comic, it might shock readers too much otherwise. As far as content, everyone has different sensitivity levels (someone put a CW up once for a character being yelled at by his dad), personally I would only use CWs for excessive violence/abuse, blood, mental illness, suicide, rape, gore, slurs and/or substance abuse. I've gotten a lot of mixed reception on warnings, there are people who want them up, in detail, on every page with potentially upsetting content. People who want them chapter by chapter, some like detail, some want a general warning. Then there are people who don't want any warnings either due to them being too spoilery, or they feel it ruins the immersion. I went for a warning in a pop-up on my main site and leaving a list in my description on other sites, mostly for the non-spoiler crowd and because of what I said before about practically half my comic being potentially triggering.

There are two chapters coming up where I'll be putting up a general warning banner at the start of the chapter, with a hidden list of triggers in the author's notes and an option to read a safer summarized version at the end of each chapter, rather than forcing everyone to read the whole thing. Just because the content will be really difficult for some in presentation and/or subject matter, and I don't want to outright distress anyone... at least without them understanding what they're getting into.

Like, even compared to how my comic already is the next chapters will be really upsetting... for some people.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

It's not bad if people are upset or distressed. Like, full on disassociation from PTSD, obviously not, but I think these CWs are for them, not Alice Smith the average woman. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

So, I feel like, because of that, the general approach is best. Adding a CW for someone getting yelled at by their father is too spoiler-y/specific in my mind.

carcarchu

i really like dani's approach with the summary at the end for people who want to know what happened but can't stomach actually seeing the nitty gritty

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Here’s the problem tho...my series literally deals with trauma healing

So there’s going to be mentions of...going to therapy, friends talking about it

Not the actual trauma itself

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Yeah, I wouldn't bother with CWs there.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

But I’m really worried that if I have to put up trigger warnings every time...a lot of pages will have that warning

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

People know what they're getting in for.

If you're going to read a comic about healing from trauma...don't be surprised at content that's not very fun.(edited)

DanitheCarutor

Yeah, my warnings are specifically for the mentally ill, people who've been in abusive situations and such. I don't want to end up bring back certain experiences, at least without them knowing what they're getting into.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Hmmm in that case I might have to put it in the summary itself then

That there’s trauma healing Of course it’s also about humor and slice of life, but I’ll add it in just in case

Would it help to get sensitivity readers to take a gander look?

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I mean, in my mind, a general synopsis of the basic plot is a good idea for a lot of stories so long as you aren't spoiling anything.

DanitheCarutor

Me? Nah, I mean, I should but it wouldn't change my decisions since my story is really tight and changing stuff would end up changing everything.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

In this case, trauma-healing seems to be a part of that plot.

So, you know, if it's mentioned, I think that's blaringly obvious at that point to people that "B'ys, there may be some triggering shit here", y' know?

DanitheCarutor

Oh, I totally misread the convo. Lol I mean, you could get a sensitivity reader if you want to be on the safe side, but if you're writing from experience and you've done research I don't see a problem with not having one.

carcarchu

having read the first few chapters of shadow's comic trauma healing was not an aspect that i picked up from it(edited)

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Sensitivity reader?

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

I agree, I get more light heart tone with Shadow's story, but I know stuff ahead of time(edited)

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Oh nooo

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

maybe the aspects will come up as the comic progresses shadow

:0

DanitheCarutor

My comic is also about trauma and healing, and while I haven't experienced all the things my characters have, I did do a ton of research and talked to people. Although my comic is a vent comic so most of it is based off my experiences.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

I've just put general content warnings in the about page and appropriately rated my comic for its content. There will be things that are written thar i have no idea that could be triggering to people that exsist in a lot of media, it almost becomes impossible to sort through. And with the amount of content to sift through that would/wouldn't be sensitive to certain topics or just generally unaware, its tricky. If there is a reader with a potentially sensitive trigger, i would hope they could get a friend to do a read through if possible, but rarely have i seen comics go right into topics that would need such a hand to do so. Stories have descriptions and ratings for that reason, you're not going to find insane violence in Pokemon type stories, so the author has that responsibility of rating it correctly is what im getting at

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Sorry, what's a sensitivity reader?

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

A sensitivity reader is like, a beta reader who specifically checks whether your work is offensive/ insensitive (e.g. when you're wondering "is my portrayal of this ethnic group offensive/ignorant?")

carcarchu

i think a sensitivity reader is for when ur writing a story that includes a particular cultural or ethnic group that ur NOT part of and u want to avoid making your story culturally insensitive

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

Ooh Dani, is it Guide to Unhealthy Relationship? Your comic often stand out to me. I knew what I was getting into when I read it

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I was a sensitvity reader for someone who was writing a viet american and keii pretty much sums it up

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

That's a thing? Who does that? Ethnic Studies professors?

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

And it's not just for ethnic groups

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I gave suggestions to add and avoid if ya writing a character from a certain ethnic group or marginalized group

like LGBT+, persons with disabilities etc

carcarchu

ethnic groups is the first thing i thought of but yes

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

No, not ethnic studies professors.

Members of the marginalized group.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yep

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

So if you're writing a trans character, you probably want a sensitivity reader who is trans

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yep!

carcarchu

example the mangaka of golden kamuy has an ainu consultant who is ainu but i'm not sure if having a consultant is quite the same thing?(edited)

DanitheCarutor

@Joichi [Hybrid Dolls] Yeah, it is. I'm glad you were able to know! I try to make it obvious since CWs are pretty much the main themes of my comic. xD

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

i think so

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

A consultant can apply to sensitivity readers, yes, but goes beyond that

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

like the mangaka saught to reprsent ainus too

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I know an MMA comic with an MMA consultant, for example

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

But couldn't two members of that group, say, Jews, say completely different things? How can you guess the information to be reliable based on their simply being a part of that group? Surely, there are things people look for when hiring these people?

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I have artist friends who are my sensitively reader and one friend who has had experience with abuse So they help me with what’s good and what’s not to write about

I have artist friends who are my sensitively reader and one friend who has had experience with abuse So they help me with what’s good and what’s not to write about

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

It's still gonna be WAY better than not getting any, Page.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I mean yeah but in that instance hearing from another perspective at least one person helps

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

At least you can be aware of possible....differences

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

And people who have experience as sensitivity readers know some common issues to look for, as well.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yeah

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Or cross reference

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yep

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

It could be worse if the information is unreliable. What sort of qualifications does one look for?

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

like for me, reping viet folks and telling that to those saught viet rep in their comics

I told them "don't you freaking dare add tropes about the vietnam war I'm gonna come over to your house"

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Friend of mine was a trauma survivor that I witnessed first hand

I suppose that qualifies!

But I think it helps to ask around

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

This stems from writers writing what they think an experience/ person group is without doing research and just being ignorant and offensive and a call for ppl to do better

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yeah like those stories should be left to the group experienced it instead

imo

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

TBH even when you do a ton of research on your own, a sensitivity reader can help you catch things that you never even thought of researching because you were unaware It Was A Thing

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

like I still read some stories then they throw like the nam joke

and i'm like "I'm droppin this"

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Yea I don't get cis ppl writing about the trans experience. Its not ur story

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

agreed ya

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Hmmm a lot of artists write from experience

Perhaps if you need a sensitivity reader for say...being bi for example

Maybe find an artist who themselves is bi(edited)

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

like don't write how they got there, but write the experience they gonna deal with in the comic

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Because you get double: you get someone who’s bi and also someone who knows how to work the medium

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

like i doubt cis persons have the nuance for trans folk, same goes for non-poc thinking is okay to do weird nuance things with poc

like lmao idk that's a pet peeve of mine if someone is writing an asian character and really just

"yea he's asian, idk what nationality but its there."

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Im not into someone who isn't a minority writing about a minority experience as a personal preference, but the sensitivity readers aren't exclusive to that. There was an example in story help in this server where someone asked about writing for a certain group of ppl and wanted feedback

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I...remember that krispy

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yeah

carcarchu

i get what you're saying Tuyetnhi but i don't want authors to NOT include any representation just because they're scared of doing it wrong

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Several people warned him Including me

DanitheCarutor

A good example of sensitivity readers is Moana. The directors were old white guys, but they got Hawaiians to look over the script to make sure it wasn't disrespectful to the culture, or totally out of left field, since the tribe in the movie is based on Hawaiian tribes. Even though I didn't have sensitivity readers I still sought out people who experienced certain mental illnesses, medical professionals and mental health professionals willing the share their experiences and knowledge on the subjects I'm tackling before starting the comic.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

ye and I get that, I mean like if they trying to do extreme nuance takes

leave that for folks who experienced that

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Asscreed games used to do the same too

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I ain't againist that kind of rep, but I have a paricular idea how to go about it that's all lol

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Tho i don't know if they were successful

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

What's wrong with someone writing a character who is transgender if they're not transgender? There's a lot of good research done on transgender issues both medical and societal as well as a lot of written record. I also don't see the issue with writing an ethnic minority as a non-minority. "Far Beyond the Stars" was written by white men and it speaks about racial issues brilliantly. Consultants on the intricacies of culture, I 100% understand, though, for your narratives; that does make sense. Professors are hired by filmmakers and writers for just that IIRC.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Sensitivity readers would not be a thing if people were not allowed to write characters outside of their own identity. Nobody's advocating that

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

ya

carcarchu

white people can write on poc's issues fine. but i have a problem when they act like they know more than the people who have experienced it first-hand

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

Yep that's what I mean cara

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

As long as you’re respectful about it

And open to changing ideas

RebelVampire

Ok Im gonna step in here now and say we need to take a step back perhaps cause I feel this convo might be becoming too heated.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Heated?

I think you're misreading. I don't believe anybody here is heated over anything. I didn't know there was an argument, honestly. Is there? Am I losing my mind here?

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Also these are instances that have been brought to light bc ppl want better rep from authours too. My last point on that!!

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I don't think anyone's angry, but this is an extremely sensitive/ heavy topic so we're all treading carefully!

carcarchu

i'm with page i thought it was all very civil

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Remarkably so, frankly.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

agreed

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Usually these things spawn a lot of arguments. It's refreshing to see people, well, not do that.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

ye lol

RebelVampire

It is but this is the sort of topic where it can quickly hit the boiling point in a single message. And I've been seeing some warning signs in this convo. By all means if everyone can keep it civil, please continue. Consider this more a warning that right now, if you're getting angry, please step away from the convo cause I don't want to have to mute or ban anyway.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

aight

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Warning signs? I really am losing my mind.

DanitheCarutor

Let me know if I've said or will say something that might be insensitive. I try to be respectful, but I'm overly comfortable with uncomfortable topics and can be like a bull in a china shop sometimes.(edited)

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Its just a sensitive topic, page

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

same with me, but i'm also speaking from experience as sensitivity reader too.

so yea lol

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Oh yeah, on most servers, when this comes up, you have those who take the opportunity to say white people should die, then the ones who say the same about people of colour. It all devolves.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

what the

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Oh, b'ys, Discord is a wild place.

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

I agree with Keii, these are sensitive topics, I'm reading each one carefully without jumping into a fight

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I mean yeah, I been on discord since 2015 lol

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Gosh, I've been on it for years too! Seems so long ago I first came here!

Time flies, eh?

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

still like, I find it kinda ridiculous someone is willing to jump like that

but yeah er, the topic at hand lol

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

It doesn't need to go to that ridiculous extent to offend people, so I agree with Rebel on that we need to continue to be careful

Eilidh (Lady Changeling)

(going to step out now but good convo y'all)

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Offer people a bit of the word "race" and soon it turns into Nuremberg.

Good talking to you, mate!

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Goodnight Eilidh!

Also I’m actually new on discord

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

I think that its a good practice that writers today are more sensitive to the readers. Not in a hand holding way, but in a responsible way where their work is properly tagged and rated and the consistency of such content is a warning as well (like danis comic) It's important to want to improve the reading experience for many and keeping in mind that some topics need to be handled with some more care

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

ye agreed!

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

In my field, I think it's a contest on how much emotion you can get out in one breath with gleeful abandon to how the reader feels.

carcarchu

but a problem with that is sometimes it feels like writers are held up to impossibly high standards and that they can't have ANY inkling whatsoever of any content that might possibly be construed as "problematique" by the purity police. the degree to which some authors are scrutinized is unreasonable and i think it often stems from having to be seen as a "pure" representation of whatever it is they are representing

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Sometimes it's not even that the standards are "too high"

DanitheCarutor

@FeatherNotes(Krispy) Lol if the word limit allows it, every self-promo of my comic is plastered with age and content warnings, dang it!

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

There will ALWAYS be those standards, they were always there. Ppl just didn't have that voice. I would not be worried about writing however, as i def see a problem with the purity thingie going around.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I think carcarchu is talking about something very specific, Feather?

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

there will be some rep be messy and rip that's part of being human and making mistakes

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

There was an article talking about the direction of art and the consumers of such that covered this topic about the purity thing that i wanna findd

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

like everyone can't be a saint

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

like when an ownvoices writer gets pitchforks and torches because their portrayal wasn't wholesome enough, and you are only allowed to write happy and wholesome stories about that group(edited)

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

like

keii omg

yeah i'll die in the torches that's ok

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Wait what

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Yeah it's a thing

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Thats a thing

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

What...????

carcarchu

yes that's what i'm talking about keii

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

What

carcarchu

i also have a video about it

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

They're more upset at the story direction then

Not a purity thing

carcarchu

no it's a purity thing

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I agree with Carcarchu on this one. I feel like some people would be up in arms if I wrote a story where a white guy is the protagonist and a black guy is the antagonist. Some people just see race.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I know several LGBTQ peeps who are afraid to post their dark LGBTQ fiction because it might draw the attention of "only wholesome content allowed!!!" people

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

WhgtttattTTT

nooo

DanitheCarutor

Oooh yeah, the puritans/sanitizers out there, they're a scary bunch. I've had a run in with a few people who've said my comic shouldn't be allowed to exist due to the content... and I've been called queerphobic... and that my comic is queerphobic torture porn... and other fun stuff. It happens.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

WHHHHHHAAAAAAAT

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

You'd be surprised how common this is.

RebelVampire

Yeah I have to say I've seen it a lot too

carcarchu

where have u been krispy that you haven't seen this?

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

I have been in my silent cave apparently

I also haven't been in fandoms for years if that helps lol

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

You living like Patrick the Starfish?

DanitheCarutor

Yeah, we're kind of starting to get back into the olden days of demand for sanitizing art, people who work on darker content or horror get a lot of crap.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

This is patrick

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

All kidding aside, TL;DR: shit's kind of fucked in some ways.

carcarchu

i've even had run-ins with such people irl... hasnt been the most pleasant. i was once friends (note once) who tried to convince me that i should turn my het romance story into a lesbian one? for no reason other than she preferred to read that kind of content?

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Ohhbsee thats where im confused

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Imagine if the sexuality were flipped. It would be outrageous.(edited)

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

rip I had a comment a year ago that the main love interest is "too gay to be straight"

and i'm like "excuse u?"

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

"Yeah, make it straight. I don't like gay stuff."

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

How is the relationship dynamic purity in that case?

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

That's not purity police talk anymore, I think

carcarchu

not purity in that specific example feather but it's the same kind of person

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I’ve also had people come up to me and ask why I don’t write a more lighthearted story

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

It's... a different issue

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

OB

MY GOSHHH

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Or “shadow, your shit is too dark why are you writing about this”

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

So ppl be telling u how to write ur chars now?

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

"Life can only be happy and stuff :(( art can literally only be happyyy"

carcarchu

yeah this same person was also PISSED that there was a gem in steven universe who was "black-coded" and portrayed as a villain even though there were black coded gems who were not portrayed as villains as well

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Sorry Krispy Life be like that

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Wthhhh

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Black coded?....what series have they been watching carcarchu lol

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

ah dang

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

These ppl have 2 much time on their hands RIP They wanna rip apart media, go after something that deserves it (likethebig2incomicscough)

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

They’re gate keeping(edited)

DanitheCarutor

Ah not too long ago I stumbled across an artist who drew more problematic stuff as a way to cope with trauma, which I guess was something their therapist suggested. Their stuff is pretty messed up, but someone started one of those "call out" videos on them, leading to thousands of people flooding their work with some of the most awful comments along with people trying to shut down their Patreon and social media accounts.

carcarchu

i later found out this person was also a terf so i ended the friendship right there when i found out

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Dani that’s...what the fuck

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Oh nasty

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

searches up terf Oh...

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I remember reading one person talking about how presenting "bad ideals" and whatnot in fiction had to be demonstrated to be bad ideals and not work and stuff and so on so forth.

carcarchu

i've seen that too dani

sadly more times than i can count

we all remember what happened to cucumber quest right?

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

It is terrible out there

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

What’s cucumber quest

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

What is cucumber

Quest oop

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

"What is cucumber?": An essay in being Socrates.

carcarchu

long story short cucumber quest was a children's webcomic that was pretty popular but the author got bullied off tumblr for being "problematic"

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

oh no

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Tumblr has a lot of crazies.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I like her work

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Oh noooooooooo

I still go on tumblr but I carefully choose my blogs

Because I don’t want this shit

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

(All this being said, I wanna reiterate that just because those terrible pitchforks and torches people exist, doesn't mean all "I find this offensive" voices are invalid. Some things could genuinely be improved!)

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Also def wanna say that even tho there will be these wolves waiting to tear 'non perfect' media apart, please dont feel like u have to stop writing, ever. Dont be afraid bc of these stories, yall have good heads on ur shoulders and obvs want to share ur experiences and that is something ur allowed to do

carcarchu

fyi she didnt stop making her comic because of the bullying thing, it was a separate, unrelated issue much later(edited)

i hear you keii

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I find it hilarious of the idea That there are people out there who tell someone not to write stuff like abuse even tho they’ve never experienced it

And the writers themselves have

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Oh, you ain't seen nothin' yet.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

There was someone who tried to boycott assassins creed 2 bc the main char reminder her of her ex bf

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

omfg

DanitheCarutor

It's really sad and a little terrifying if your work doesn't fit the sanitization standards... Sometimes I think of that "what if" chance just the right person finding my comic and launching a take down campaign on it. Which is why I'm totally fine with staying as a smalltime person in the shadows. Also people don't usually want to even read through my comic, so that's a plus.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

why lmaoo

oh dang dani that's one fear

but i'm also like "I wonder how folks react to me dealing with that like I ignore them"

would that be a power move or I'd be burning harder?

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Shit I never thought of a takedown campaign

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

It's a genuine fear for the creating community for sure, but ur voice is necessary. Ur story will resonate with ppl, and those who choose to use their time to tear it down obviously have nothing else better to do

DanitheCarutor

@keii’ii (Heart of Keol) Oh yeah, totally! People's feelings are super valid, and someone writing sensitive content should be open to listening to other people. I'm just talking about the extremists who think anything remotely uncomfortable shouldn't exist. Like, no.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Man, nowadays, people just throw shit and false accusations and all the rest at people because they don't like them and their stuff. They're truly pathetic.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

I used to be so scared of a certain chapter in my comic bc its so violent at one point. It kept me up at night bc of these take down campaigns were a such a thing. But then i remember the content i enjoyed that inspired my own and im like Aint no one cancelling FMA for the niina part!

I mean unless its a topic that's super insensitive to a group or people/topic, which i know you're handling with sensitivity and grace, i wouldn't stop

carcarchu

this is a little bit sensitive so i'm going to put it in a spoiler there was another incident where an author received constant messages to kill themselves for writing gls when they did not at that time identify as a woman but then the author later did a whole comic about how how complicated her relationship with her own gender and sexuality was and that she de-transitioned and now once again considered herself to be both cis and lesbian and all those comments about her needing to kill herself for writing gl were so narrow-minded because you can never really know an author's situation if you aren't in their shoes

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

What's "gl"?

DanitheCarutor

Lol yeah, I do get worried a lot, especially about the upcoming chapters. Although that's not going to stop me from pushing forward, and telling the story how I want to tell it. If my online presence is murdered in the process, at least it will die for a good cause... at least good for me because I'll be venting everything out.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Whhhh!!! People just gettin into ppls business damn. That's horrible

carcarchu

girl's love

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

GIrl's love?

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

ye

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

I def see ur story as a personal one with healing and building that will resonate with others Dani. And i think that's very important

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

What's that?

carcarchu

stories about girls loving girls

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

it's a genre that focuses on romantic relationships between girls ye

carcarchu

i really got chills reading that author's comic about her identity especially having seen those comments numerous times on her other comics

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

There was a similar incident except it was with an artist by the name of Zamii for supposedly drawing Steven Universe characters too thin (Yes, she did attempt suicide in the end, though she didn't succeed in her attempt).

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Is...is she okay now?

oh my god Page

I remembered that

The SU writers had to step in

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

oh rip sadly I remember that as well

carcarchu

i think she's doing ok! i'm not sure if that particular comic is still up but i can dm u it if u want shadow

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Yep! Not just the writers, even an executive producer.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Yes please carcarchu

And I think Rebecca sugar stepped in too? Not sure about that

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Hopefully this serves as a reminder for all of us to have each others backs in such situations wow

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Another incident was in the Undertale fandom I think. One person gave a cookie to an artist at a convention they didn't like because of the ships they were doing. They author was suspicious, so, they cracked open the cookie. It was filled with needles.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

WHHHHHHYYYYYYY

carcarchu

oh my god i remember that page, what a horror story

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

........what the FUCK

carcarchu

always be careful about accepting food from events like that

DanitheCarutor

Geez, the thing about the GL author is sad... yet not surprising, and it's sad that I'm not surprised. @FeatherNotes(Krispy) Thank you so much! I went into my comic expecting absolutely no one would like it, so if it resonates with even one person that would be the best surprise. TvT

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yee haw I love solidarity

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Yeah, never accept food/drinks from strangers, including "fans"

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

As someone who bakes and deals with food....that is horrifying

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yeah rip that's horrifying

carcarchu

if it's packaged food like candy it should be safe, but still be careful if u have reason to be suspicious at all

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Remember, if you're suspicious, make them eat it too >:)

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

omgllol

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

And lace it with cyanide.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Gosh authours need content warning from readers it seems yikes

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Better safe than sorry.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Still not safe to have them eat it too lol

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I mean, hey, better second degree murder than dead.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I can think of some.... ways around that

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

"I'm alergic to needles"

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Give it to their friend

>:)

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Give it to their spouse.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

And if it’s poison they’ll go down knowing they did it

Make a marvel villain

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

They're called "Widower".

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Page you and I have like minds

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Indeed we do.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I'm not comfortable with that -- like, what if their friend or spouse is being abused by them and is seeking to get out of that relationship

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

...This conversation is freaking amazing And I’ve never done individual page warnings for my comic - never felt it necessary. Maybe someday someone will yell at me about it, but... meh. The comic never goes into the really deep dark potentially-controversial stuff. So maybe it won’t be an issue. Back to catching up on all of this, WOW.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

oh god it would be a complicated meSS(edited)

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Oh god okay NO DONT GIVE IT TO THEIR SPOUSE

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

It doesn't matter. They must die for our agenda.

Morality? Pft.

If they're dead, they're no longer in the relationship.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I mean @LadyLazuli (Phantomarine) your story is really riveting But I’m not sure if you need warnings? I mean your story deals with...death

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

You see? Widower solves everything.

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

@shadowhood (SunnyxRain) I’m not sure! Someone tagged it with ‘limb loss’ elsewhere, which is debatable, haha. It’s something I would almost want others to tag. Sometimes I can’t stretch my mind far enough to imagine a page needing a trigger warning.(edited)

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Wow...the more you learn, huh.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Yes- those specific type tags are always going to be elusive to keep track of- ur general rating is just what ur story needs

Def wanna point out too that TV ratings and warnings are what i go by and the most helpful to me as a reader and creator. Also video game warnings too are good to look at if people ever need examples of how to rate comics!

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Yep, ratings are all I need too. In my ‘about’ page I described my comic as “no darker than the darkest stuff in Harry Potter,” but I’m sure someone would still find something extremely dark in that, so... SHRUG

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Does anyone know of any of the big name comics that put trigger warnings or whatnot in their work? I dont read marvel/dc/etc so ive never seen if they took to rating their comics with any type of warnings?

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I do have kids reading so I want the parents to feel comfortable

DanitheCarutor

Is it weird that I rated my comic based on the level of nudity and lack of sex? Like, "Okay, these people are really naked but not in a sexy way, what is the rating for that?"

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I'm thinking about snot girl rn and idk if their creators do that tbh other than marketed towards adults

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I read a couple of more-intense things from Image Comics and I’ve never seen any trigger warnings there either

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Hmmm I’m not sure I remember reading Hellboy and not seeing any trigger warnings

carcarchu

krispy, the only time i can recall it is when i read Bradherley's Coach and that was actually put there by the translation team and not the author himself but i will say that the warning was extremely warranted with that one because i consider myself pretty desensitized to traumatic content but even this one really got me with each chapter being traumatic in it's own unique way

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Do they have ratings on the backs of the books like some manga?

Oh wow ty translation team

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Probably! I’m not sure if DarkHorse comics does it but they do have things like nudity and...portrayals of graphic death

carcarchu

if u read it on a website there is some degree of tagging for the content but i don't think that alone could have accurately prepared someone for what the comic explored

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

I think its clear that by these examples we're all already doing better at being responsible for the content we share and produce.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I hope so I wonder if those big name comics received flak about not having trigger warnings

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I wonder about that too tbh

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Im sure to a degree? But no where near an indie creator would

Which is a whole other topic

carcarchu

i for one would love more tagging options for webcomics

makes it easier to find whatever niche content you're into!

genres alone just dont do it

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

That could work But there’s also a price to pay; less chance to get readers too

carcarchu

why is it less of a chance to get readers?

Nutty (Court of Roses)

I myself am looking at my Punisher comics, and there's no warnings anywhere, but i feel with an antihero like the Punisher, you go in expecting the gore and violence

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Hmmmmm....I guess my fear is that it’s a double edged sword carcarchu On one hand you can attract the readers you want But on the other hand you can also...possibly drive away readers who are mildly curious Some people need time to get invested in a story

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I guess some people will just avoid some tags no-questions-asked. Hopefully it’s the small minority that the trigger warning will actually help (in terms of anxiety) and not someone who’s writing off the trigger as problematic and will go on a tirade warning other readers about it. I know it goes both ways

carcarchu

oh i wasn't talking about trigger content tagging specifically

i was talking about stuff like being able to tag for example "witches" or "animals" or "music" whatever is a theme in your comic(edited)

guess it wasnt a logical throughline made sense in my head

eli [a winged tale]

I was looking for a universal way to show trigger warnings and came across this article. https://medium.com/@UntoNuggan/trigger-warnings-101-a-beginners-guide-e9fc90c6ba0a I guess for mine I’m thinking to add body horror and violence the more we go through the story... I do like the part about putting the informed consent power back to the reader’s hands

Nutty (Court of Roses)

I put both Fantasy Violence and Alcohol Use as general warnings for my comic. Alcohol is treated in a complex manner in CoR, both in a humorous light and as a way to cope, but I know there are a lot of folks that are triggered by the presence of alcohol.(edited)

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

I will be putting trigger warning in my comic but Ive wanted to write about mental health allegories for a long time as a personal self reflection.

I started to feel braver after seeing other creators boldly write about mental health topics in their comics.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Whispers the webcomic library is an excellent source and tool to find/avoid tags in comics

Luma does an excellent job with archiving the stories there and i hope yall have applied to have ur comics there too!

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

Yes I watch Webcomic library on Twitter, Luma does such a good job curating comics(edited)

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Same! Highly recommended

carcarchu

i think i follow it on twitter but i don't keep up with it

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

They did these tags for my comic(edited)

carcarchu

maybe i should change that

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Super dedicated and a very great resource for webcomics!!

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I got these! I originally only put down 'limb loss - leg' but 'limb loss - arm' popped up too, and I'm like "You know... that's kinda true." It's a really good resource!

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

OOoh I should check it out

Webcomic library, right?

carcarchu

what's the difference between independent! and independent

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

...that's a good question and I don't know the answer, haha

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

“Eventual LGBTQ” yes

Nutty (Court of Roses)

I AGREE!! I'm on Webcomic Library too. Mine is tagged as Mobility Aids since Nocturne uses a cane to walk

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

hmmm how do you add your webcomic onto there?

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I went thru the process like

you send an email to luma/webcomic libary with a submission form

and she'll add it for u with the tags that are relelated to your comic

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Luma always puts up submission posts too Check out their tumblr/twitter!

DanitheCarutor

I can't imagine how much time it takes Luma to go through all those webcomics! These are the tags they put for mine:(edited)

They've kept it up pretty well in spite of it not being their cup of tea. The only thing I was ever iffy on was the 'sexual nudity' tag since I didn't intend for that but for the nudity to be uncomfortable/awkward, and I don't like the idea of people going into my comic for sexual arousal, but on well. To each their own, also it may be a presentation mistake on my part.

It's funny because I didn't think about one of my MCs being disabled until seeing this, I had to think for a moment before realizing "Oh yeah, I guess ocular albinism is considered a disability."

Kind of an embarrassing realization on my part.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

ooo that's a lot of tags

this from my comic

DanitheCarutor

@shadowhood (SunnyxRain) Here is the submission template if you're interested. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1q48tZquhmNoGY_lcsE8FkByF614EISk_Pf3YoQKXYWA/edit?usp=sharing

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

probably not much is tagged since lmao it's 2 chapters in

DanitheCarutor

Haaaah yeah, my comic has a lot of... stuff. It'll probably get even bigger once the next two chapters are finished, if Luma is willing to go through them.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

ahhh thank you Time to submit

honestly I don't think there'll be a lot for my webcomic, since I just started lol

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

All a good resource regardless! And a good place to find comics to read!

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

fair enough! Also...uhh....

what's nsfw text?

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

oh

snuffysam (Super Galaxy Knights)

like, not safe for work things being talked about in the text of the comic typically sex stuff i imagine

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

or swearing lmao

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

oh god

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

get ready for a rideeeee

snuffysam (Super Galaxy Knights)

since someone saying "violence and gore" in the text wouldn't really count as NSFW lol

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

on my sailor ship lolol

DanitheCarutor

Yeah, NSFW text is swearing, slurs, discussion of NSFW subjects, sexual language I'm guessing. In my case it's the former three, at least I assume as much.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

..........ohhhh boy

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

mine is just my characters speaking without filter

lol

at least for the begining lolol

snuffysam (Super Galaxy Knights)

but yeah to me the limit for "what to warn people about" is generally dependent on the platform

those are my tags on archive binge

those are my tags on webcomic library (admittedly a bit out of date)

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

lord almighty(edited)

snuffysam (Super Galaxy Knights)

on comic fury the only tag I have is high violence (with no nudity, sexual content, or swearing)

on tapas it's a page-by-page thing so I basically add the tag whenever there's blood on-screen

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Nsfw is not swearing like bitch, shit fuck Its more slurs i do believe

Also forgive me for swearing on main lol

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

lol

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

OH DANI SAID IT ALREADY

So yes, what dani said

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Yeah I was wondering how deep into curse/slur territory it’d have to go

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Gjs has swearing in it but its sailor mouth stuff, not slurs

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I’ve got fantasy slurs and I drop those RARELY because they still make me feel weird, haha

Dunno if I could ever commit to IRL ones in anything I do

DanitheCarutor

Yeah, I imagine if swears did count it would be how they're used, like if they were said in a derogatory statement and/or bullying.

But yeah, slurs, definitely. Haaaah

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

I don't think I could ever write about racial slurs either. The only touchy topics I will ever write are those I have experienced. Never experienced true racism so if I wrote about it I would feel like I'm faking knowledge of a huge and personal issue for other people

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Same. I leave that to people who can write about it better. Any discrimination I have in my stories is manufactured by the fantasy world and its own unique circumstances. I have some influence from real-world discrimination, but it's its own thing.

DanitheCarutor

Ah but slurs aren't just race, there are also slurs for gender and sexuality. (The -cough- 'T' and 'F' word.)

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

yeah... racial slurs make me uncomfortable, but depends with the fantasy slurs, that could be creative if it's done to show the social issues of that world?(edited)

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I feel like even if you're only using fantasy slurs (speaking as someone whose comic has a use of a fantasy slur...), you need good understanding of what it's like to be on the receiving end of a slur IRL. This isn't to say "you need [this qualification] to be Allowed to use slurs in your fictional work!" but more like, how to make it resonate with the readers in the right ways, how to make it not gratuitous, etc.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

ye

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I'm still learning myself. Like, I do have some experience dealing with racism toward me, but 1) it's nothing compared to the truly horrific stuff out there, and 2) even on comparable "levels" my experience could be very, very different from someone else's. All we can do is keep trying, keep learning.

Keep listening.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I'd had a fair deal of racism and microagression being a native in the US for so long

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

exactly, like I experienced childhood racism about my cultural upbringing. But it's different for other people.(edited)

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

it's something that lmao won't go away but ye we have some different perspectives on how we can go about handling it

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

When I read a work or watch a film, I can tell if the creator has researched well, if it's racism similar to my experiences. It doesn't matter their background. But it'd be a nicer bonus if this came from a POC creator.(edited)

DanitheCarutor

Yeah, based on that I'm probably not the best person to have characters using slurs. While the slur present is gender based, I have a complicated relationship with... everything that isn't white/cis/het. I'm a mixed race (mom's side(very white passing): German Jewish, black Irish, Scottish, Native American. Dad's side: Native American, Spanish, Mexican.), my mom was raised in a church in a tiny town that was totally against non-white people and race mixing, according to her when I was born people would come to the hospital to gawk at me. I've never been called a slur maliciously, but casually and I never noticed it until I was older after everyone naturally stopped. Every experience and memory I have of slurs has been of the "yikes!", "Woah, you really said that." variety, so I kind of project that energy a little bit in my comic. But in the form of a very yikes casually transphobic character.

For clarity on the cis/het thing, my family was also extremely bigoted but would hide it under casual language, so it never sounded queerphobic until you process what they said.

Not related to me, but I understand needing to experience racism to write it, although I think it can still be accomplished well if the person is empathetic and does a ton of research. Kinda like anything else sensitive, you just need to be really educated on the subject.

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

I agree with you Dani. Sadly some creators just don't have that empathy and want to write a fantasy token character. I had awkward story conversations before on race. "what do you think about this ambiguous Asian character? I'm thinking of a Japanese name, sounds Asian enough?" I always cringe inside(edited)

Deo101 [Millennium]

I usually bring in other people to write about those things I haven't experienced. Friends, generous volunteers, etc.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I think it's 100% OK to write about things you haven't experienced. I don't think J.K. Rowling experienced being an adolescent male chosen one in a magical college, but she still wrote about it...and made a Hell of a lot of money.

DanitheCarutor

Lol that's why I added in doing research, which I think brainstorming with experienced people counts, you're still educating yourself. I agree with everyone on experience being preferred, although I am on the anti-censorship side with art and storytelling, no matter how cringe it is.

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

ofc i think it's okay, but I personally don't feel comfortable doing it

i even feel a little weird writing male characters

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

If we can only write ourselves and our experiences, we're plain not good writers.

That's my view on the matter.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Again, I don't think any of us is advocating Necessary Qualifications To Even Attempt. This is a much more nuanced topic

I've never been a tall beefy dude, but that's what my MC is.

Never been a parent, but I write parents.

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Yeah, "make the effort to write this well" is very different from "don't write this"

And there's plenty of people criticizing JKR for how she handles specific topics...

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

yeeeeah....

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Including me.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

JKR is probably not a good example to bring up as a positive example for this topic, simply because of the issues that can REALLY distract from why she's being used as an example.

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

I like writing male character more often since I'm less stressed about writing the opposite gender, I know it's my comfort zone. I based some of the boys on my guy friends and have fun with the story. Though I'm making a difference by insisting on adding women more and pushing for strength and vulnerability.(edited)

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

J.K. turned out to be lacking a few brain-cells, but my point is that you can very easily write foreign experiences; every good writer does that all the time (as you all do yourselves!) and I think that extends to writing characters no matter the colour of their skin, sexuality, or gender identity.

DanitheCarutor

True, I haven't seen gatekeeping here, I'm just giving my thoughts on it. A while back on another server I read a conversation where some people were dissing the person who made Magical Boy on Tapas because they're not trans, even though they did a lot of research beforehand. I was kind of reflecting that, but I also empathize with people who feel uncomfortable with people who've never experienced a certain form of oppression writing about it.

Pff I've never been a janitor, but dang it! You can't stop me from having a janitor character!

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Janitors are the coolest guys, I'm telling ye.

Most chill people in the land.

B'ys, they can get along with anyone, I swear.

DanitheCarutor

They're like real life superheroes.

Deo101 [Millennium]

We're not saying not to write other skin tones, gender, etc. Just to be sensitive about it and aware that you can't extrapolate someone else's life experiences from your own, you have to ask

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

there's a difference between writing a janitor and writing a touchy topic like racism. Anyways, even if I was writing a janitor I'd do a ton of research on the job

Deo101 [Millennium]

Sorry I use a cane and I can tell when people didn't ask someone who uses a cane what it's like. It goes the same for a lot of things

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I'm not saying you are saying that! Simply addressing something I've encountered before.

I've used a cane before, though temporarily. It was...a pain in the ass, honestly.

Well, more like a pain in my leg. And my arm.

DanitheCarutor

@Eightfish (Puppeteer) Sorry, I was joking since Keii was talking about writing muscular guys and parents. It would be sad if I didn't know the difference between racism and an occupation. Lol

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

In any case, I don't think that writing somebody of an ethnic minority necessitates much on its own. Delving into racial issues, sure, yeah that requires a lot, but I wouldn't say that of writing the character itself.

I'd say the same of sexuality and gender identity if you're not delving into the respective issues thereof. If you know what you're doing, i don't think there's too much to it.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

@Page, Rambler Extraordinaire! Yeah, I think that's what a lot of us are saying. There is a difference between writing a character who's [this identity] vs writing a story that's all about exploring that identity.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

The latter requires a lot more research, agreed.

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

oh i know @DanitheCarutor , you write a lot of lgbt characters after all. just adding my thoughts, not diagreeing

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

"If you know what you're doing" is the tricky part though

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Well, that's not that difficult in most cases. There is a sea of available literature.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

There's.... the problem of marginalized folks pointing out concerns in a work, and non-marginalized people dismissing their concerns because they don't see the issue.

Deo101 [Millennium]

It's also really easy to ask a person for their real life experience

People are usually, in my experience, more than willing to take some time and answer a few questions.

DanitheCarutor

On the Magical Boy thing, like I said, it wasn't you all, it was people on a different server and I wanted to bring it up since it's related to the topic. To do a more serious comparison, I've never had psychosis or schizophrenia but I'm writing a character like that. I did a lot of research beforehand though, like, A LOT.

Deo101 [Millennium]

Like for disabilities it's very easily to find all kinds of Medical information, but almost no first hand experience is available. So what happens is people are very accurate medically, but then extrapolate what living like that is like and still end up with a disengenuous story

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Surely, there's available literature on the subject? I'm sure that I could find some.

Deo101 [Millennium]

And Dani, same with me and schizophrenia. It's for a future comic, but I've been researching it and interviewing people for years now to be sure I get a story that would at the very least not hurt them

I mean I would think a better resource would be YouTubers with those things, actually.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

For a lot of topics, it's easier to find a firsthand experiencer willing to talk to you than to find some existing literature on the exact thing you didn't know you needed

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah like My condition is very rare and the best you could find on it for firsthand experience is like. A forum that's super old and inactive

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I still remember one review where the person said "I have a certain disability, and I'm sure this author doesn't have it -- but they know someone who does -- because they're describing the visible symptoms with uncanny accuracy, but are guessing all wrong about how it feels/how it affects your life in invisible ways."

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

That's a huge pitfall, I feel. There can be a big sensitive thing that you aren't even aware is a thing; therefore, you don't think to do any research on that facet.

Deo101 [Millennium]

It's really easy to make a post on social media like "hey can I interview people with ___ for a writing project?"

DanitheCarutor

Openness depends on the topic. It's really hard getting people's experiences with certain mental illnesses, also the small number of people suffering from it. I had a really hard time finding people willing to talk about certain things, especially professionals since they usually don't want to talk to you without paying money for it.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

^ That's also a good point.

Deo101 [Millennium]

That's true

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I think we're going back to the purity thing. You can't expect someone to truly represent the "invisible ways" it affects you very well considering they're...invisible.

Deo101 [Millennium]

You can ask

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

But I would definitely recommend trying to reach out to people with firsthand experience, and seeing if that's an option.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I've been able to shoot emails off to professors before for questions. They're usually happy to answer a question or two.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

This is not at all like the purity thing IMO.

DanitheCarutor

A decent resource I found was a mental health forum, you have to get accepted to join, but it's basically everyone talking about their experiences with being mentally ill or being a volunteer for mental health care centers. Unfortunately there aren't any psychologists on the forum... Just nurses and caregivers on the non-ill side.

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Again, there's a spectrum here...there's all kinds of possibilities between "how dare your extensive research have a single imperfection" and "wow, you didn't even try".

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Yeah, and it's not even a single lane spectrum! It's very complex and multifaceted/multilayered

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

And we're talking about this for marginalized people, but it can apply to any group/culture/situation you're not part of -- just look at any story where a European writer has an American character drive across the US in a couple hours

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

Lmaoooo

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

Or americans write Germans getting lost in their woods.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Alright, multilayered? How so? It's a spectrum from "B'y, you're writing about a black man in the 1700s being exalted in America" to "Why am I reading this ethnic studies textbook?"

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

Naw mate, pick a direction and you‘ll find a street or at least marked trail in half an hour.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Okay, I can't answer that without draining my energy reserve for the next 20 weeks

DanitheCarutor

Lmao! As dumb as it sounds, something like that can also apply to animals. Like the thing Disney did with lemmings, and how Jaws portrayed sharks which caused this spike in shark hunting because everyone thought they were these monsters.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Would it be possible to summarize?

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

We've talked about a bunch of different aspects already -- like, how well did you research the medical symptoms vs. how well did you represent the day-to-day experience

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

No (at least for me), precisely because it's so complex and multilayered.

RebelVampire

This is a good convo and I am happy everyone has remained civil. That being said, I kind of feel it's gone a bit off-topic for an extended time regarding this week's question

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

it's hard to know what's worth a mature tag or not when even the websites themselves are vague. I started off with a character having the trait of cursing a lot, but then dropped that as i became paranoid of wts content guidelines

but i've gotten a decent audience since then and wts hasn't deleted my pages or anything so(edited)

i have no idea what the line is

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Webtoons is extra mysterious

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I host my own stuff, so I just put warnings up when a specific storyline is going to be more intense than the comic's average

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

because their comment system will auto censor words like "vague" (it becomes "***ue" or something like that) so you'd think they really don't want ANY cursing?

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

yes! that has happened to me

Deo101 [Millennium]

Su***ious

Is one I see a lot

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

someone commented "sperm" on my pages once so i know wt doesn't censor that at least

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

...is that why the kids these days are just saying "sus" now

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

******in's Creed

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

i don't understand what is the swear in suspicious?

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

lmao

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

It's a racial slur in some regions

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

ohhhh

i know what you mean

yeah rip

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

An auto-censor like that just makes a normal discussion forum seem 100x more scandalous/insulting than it actually is...

Deo101 [Millennium]

I got used to talking around then from mmo games ahahaha

Those chats that squelch you if you say one curse or something close to it by accident

But! On topic, I think asking whether something is too mature is a good idea, having a kind of beta audience or sensitivity reader kind of thing.

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I think it's fine to make your own judgment calls as long as you're consistent, so readers know the same things will be reliably warned for

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

a beta reader wouldn't neccessarily know more about wt than me though

when it comes to blurry content guidelines that is

might help with mature or triggering content

because your tolerance might be different from other people's

Deo101 [Millennium]

Oh I mean like "hmmm I think this is a bit much. Do you think this is a bit much?"

And they go "na this seems like pg 13 to me." Or "hmmm I think it could probably freak someone out you might wanna lightly warn."

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

it's a blurry line because sometimes an arm getting ripped off stylishly is less triggering than a realistic depiction of like, a fingernail being ripped off

just gotta go by feeling, i suppose

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yep

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I agree that this is a case where there's no reason to think a beta reader has better judgment than you have yourself

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

yeah my friends are all like me

DanitheCarutor

WTs is weird. I used to have my comic up there totally uncensored, they featured it on the front page for about a month, but when someone flagged the nudity they wouldn't put the pages back up. Like... you think they would have known already? The nude scene is within the first 20 pages.

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

and don't think much of gore and swearing and such

fuck dani don't say that you're making me paranoid again

RebelVampire

Classic it only takes one person to ruin something for everyone else

DanitheCarutor

@Eightfish (Puppeteer) From what I've seen of your nude scenes, I don't think anyone will really notice. I didn't even notice until you brought it up one time on here... or maybe it was in the Webcomic Updates server.

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

i hope so but as rebel said only takes one staff member

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Can i just chime in to say that the auto censoring with what y'all have said about WT really turns me off from that platform. Not into a site having that power, regardless of who uses it. It's like we said here, be responsible with your work with tags, but that extra hand in the pot makes me think of tumblr style censors and im not a fan.

Does tapas do that too?

Deo101 [Millennium]

Webtoon doesn't really have tags, it just has a toggle for a series being mature

They both do

So they don't get removed from app stores

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Ye i guessed as much

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Tapas has this feature that lets creators tag individual episodes as mature. BUT there is an additional layer -- if your comic is too mature even with the mature tag, they're forced to hide it from their iOS app, due to Fruit Company regulations.

DanitheCarutor

WT is trash, and the reader base is made up of children, don't go there! Tapas is pretty alright, they're fine with my comic being uncensored there, and they don't censor comments.

Yeah, there's what Keii said about the Apple app too.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

And it's up to Fruit Company to determine whether it's too mature or not. (Mine is too mature because of body hair, and I was told they'd put it back on the app if I erased the body hair in a specific episode)

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Still not a fan of that kind of censorship. And i agree with dani

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

ohh yeah i remember that body hair thing kei

DanitheCarutor

Oh crap, were we not supposed to name drop the app?

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Excuse me body hair

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Webtoons on the other hand will straight up remove any too mature episodes across all of their platform...s (site, iOS, android) if Google says "this is too mature"

Deo101 [Millennium]

I don't think it's censorship, it's more not allowing certain things on your platform

They're not saying you can't make it just that you can't post it there

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

It is censorship U cant post ur piece in its intended form

Like....body hair Wtf

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I think that depends on how you define censorship

In any case, it's definitely not ideal.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

That is so .... Like Way to show what standards they want

DanitheCarutor

Gah the body hair thing. Thinking about it, I never got contacted by Tapas about my comic's mature content, but they probably knew trying to censor it would be a lost cause. Lol They probably just threw straight off the app.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

That's horrible Dani

DanitheCarutor

Naah, I don't mind. It's still allowed on the desktop site, and that's the only version I use so it's like nothing ever happened.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Still a gross move on their part. Not enthused with the passion to appease app stores with removing content that isn't 'suitable', but that is a diff convo.

DanitheCarutor

As one last derailing bit, if you're ever looking for a hosting site, Comicfury is the best for mature and adult work. They don't censor ANYTHING! Except hate-speech.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Oh i keep seeing more and more talk about that! Can i ask u more about it in shop talk?

DanitheCarutor

Sure, go ahead! I'll answer to the best of my abilities.

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Wow

Just caught up

Back to the warnings thing...(edited)

In my experience, there are certain reasonable leaps in seriousness in comics, and other times when it appears jarring and out of nowhere, but in that case, I think it's simply bad writing, unless of course, it's a genre like horror.

But I think an author deciding to put content warnings should be up to the author on a case by case basis.

There are simply too many variables to come up with specific ground rules

As an example, I have a scene later on in my comic where a child dies. I don't show how it happens, but I was planning on showing the body afterwards. Nothing too gruesome, but definitely some broken bones. And I have been told completely opposite things, that it should be okay because I'm not showing the actual death, and on the other side, that showing the body at all is terrible, and I shouldn't do it. My concern is... If I don't show the body, how will the readers know that the child is dead? And how will I show the reactions of the other characters? It's just too complicated and specific of an issue to rely on general guidelines.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

B'ys, the real answer is to stop writing webcomics altogether! I'm telling ye! no webcomic, no problem!

I mean, sure, we'll be bereft of artistic output and dreams will be crushed...but hey, less stuff to do. Silver lining.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

what you mean most of us has made somewhat a living doing comics lol(edited)

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Lol, I want to make comics so uhhhhh???

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

Aw...That sounds sad but depends how the body is presented? I mean I've seen mystery games with afew dead characters? Not a child yet.(edited)

Sometimes I've seen Anime do a light censorship by showing a bloodied child's shoe or gloves, or an arm but it can be disturbing(edited)

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

It's just that... dead children is a sensitive topic

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Yeah, a limp arm is what I often see

DanitheCarutor

I think it's because showing dead children is considered taboo? Like some games where you can kill other characters won't give you the ability to kill children, as well as movies that show character deaths won't show a child's death. It might be too insensitive for some people because children are innocent, and many people have had/are having kids, so showing them might be extra upsetting? At least that's what I assume is the reason behind someone saying not to show the child's death.

Ah, didn't notice Cronaj already said it in much fewer words.

snuffysam (Super Galaxy Knights)

Ah yes, that reminds me that there are places where I put up different warnings than what the comic has - my side stories. Since my side stories are often ways for me to explore different styles of storytelling than the comic proper, they can often have different themes. Off the top of my head - one side story I wrote had a warning for cussing, one had a warning for descriptions of violence against a child, and one had a warning for getting in a bit deep into a character's PTSD. (oddly enough, both of those latter warnings were in reference to the same character, just with a time gap of a few years. though the PTSD in the one story involved a completely different event than the violence depicted in the other story. pejiba's had it rough)

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

@Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!) , @Cronaj (Whispers of the Past) , I was making a joke. :p

sssfrs (JOE IS DEAD)

I think the worst thing I'm going to show visually is a dead body and the whole story is about there being a dead body so I don't feel the need for any additional internal content warnings. I think my rule of thumb is just not to show anything that would be more shocking or upsetting than the premise of the comic would have you expect, and to have all warnings at the outset.

I agree with snuffysam's approach to separating darker and scarier content into side stories with their own content warnings or at least I would take a similar approach myself. It's okay to make stories that depict difficult topics but I think it's better not to disrupt the flow of a more lighthearted story if it can be avoided. Exploring difficult topics outside of the main story is a good solution to that

sagaholmgaard

I put a content warning the first time there was some violence and blood in my comic, since the previous pages had been mostly cute so I figured it was warranted. I'm coming up to the second time something potentially triggering happens- a guy gets killed 'on screen', but I don't think it's rendered in a worse way than the first time so I'm considering whether it's good to warn every time a scene like this comes up or if the first warning is enough to readers to have opted out if they dont want that sort of content

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

I had a read-up on age ratings and found out Nyx+Nyssa would fall under PEGI-16 due to realistic violence towards human characters, and will simply stick a 16+ sign into the corner of my page, which links to a conscience explanation why.

Desnik

So recently I've joined a writer's group and they ask people to stick warnings upfront so that readers can opt out of reading something that will upset them. I've found that it's helpful to warn for things that cause certain phobias, religious criticism, and minority experiences depicted w/o a sensitivity reader's guidance. I would also warn for drugs/alcohol usage since reading about that kind of experience can be a trigger for addictions.

I don't tend to write about anything super visceral but when reading I know I appreciate warnings about certain types of gore or violence

I think it's beneficial to be extremely specific with tags because for some reason YA-rated stuff can be very violent (so that makes age-based ratings completely nonsensical). Also not every story is going to treat serious issues with the same gravity so I think it's helpful to mention if some aspect is being treated in a melodramatic/unrealistic manner on purpose.(edited)

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

Like a standard comic might take say... 10 pages or more. Webtoon tends to shorten this roughly by half. Or by the 3rd or 4th episode, that major plot point happens.(edited)

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I feel "have a natural flow" is easier said than done, and also can mean very different things for different stories, and even different readers responding to one story.

(Maybe we should move this to shop talk as it's not relevant to this week's topic?)

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

oh this is in shop talk? ok, I thought creator babble was relevant to this.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Nah, creator babble, if I understand it correctly, is specifically for weekly questions. This week's question is about content warnings

AntiBunny

My story is heavily inspired by film noir, so I think the occasional burst of violence should be expected.

#ctparchive #comics #webcomics #indie comics #comic chat #comic discussion #creator interview #comic creator interview #creator babble #comic tea party #ctp

[eloissaadni]

10 Signs Someone Is Trying to Blackmail You

Blackmail is a heavy word. Luckily, this crime isn’t committed very often against regular, everyday folk – but emotional blackmail is. Emotional blackmail is a fairly straightforward concept. It involves getting someone under your control through the use of psychological manipulation and mind games.

The problem with this kind of blackmail is how subtle it can be. You think you’re not susceptible, but master blackmailers are capable of slowly but surely creeping their influence under your skin when you’re not paying attention. That’s why you need to be aware of the red flags for this behavior.

HERE ARE 10 SIGNS SOMEONE IS TRYING TO BLACKMAIL YOU

1.    GUILT-TRIPPING

Guilt-tripping is very common behavior from emotional blackmailers. The goal is to make you feel bad for something you’ve said or done, or to feel bad for them. Blackmailers hope that this will make you cave in and compromise on your beliefs or statements out of sympathy.

Primarily, guilt-tripping uses your compassion against you. It gets even worse if the blackmailer has the support of other people. The tricky part about all of this is that, usually, an expert emotional manipulator will never need to blame you openly.

They’ll imply your guilt somehow, often through phrases like:

“It’s not like I (insert things they’ve done for you) just to help you out before or anything.”

“Yeah, it’s just that I tried hard at this, but whatever.”

“I guess it’ll be difficult for me, but maybe I’ll be able to figure something out.”

“I just thought it would be a great symbol of our friendship/relationship, but if you don’t feel the same, I guess I can learn to handle that.”

“So I did this because you don’t care about me much, anyway.”

“I talked to (insert person), and they agree with me on this that you’re unreasonable.”

“I mean, you owe me, don’t you?”

“Are you sure you want it to leave this like this, with me in this situation alone?”

2.    GASLIGHTING

Gaslighting involves twisting situations, events, or statements into something that didn’t happen. Basically, it means that emotional blackmailers will try to change a story to best suit their whims, even if that’s not what happened. It can mess with your mental health, positive thinking, sense of self, and, eventually, your perception of reality.

Gaslighters have a way of making you feel like you’re losing your mind, and in the long run, this can be extremely damaging. Here are some common phrases gaslighters use:

“You’re crazy, that’s not what happened at all.”

“Actually, it happened in the way I remember it. Don’t you recall?”

“Lighten up! It’s just a joke.”

“You’re a little sensitive, huh?”

“You’re really overreacting to this.”

“Why even bring this up? Let it go.”

“I never said or did those things. You must have imagined it.”

“You’re always reaching all the wrong conclusions.”

“Don’t be so insecure.”

“Maybe you need some mental help.”

“If you’d been listening or paying attention, you would know that…”

“You’re reading into this whole thing too much. It’s not that deep.”

Stand up to gaslighting by reiterating that what they described is not your reality and stand by what you remember.

3.    PROMISES OF INCENTIVES

Some blackmailers offer some incentive to convince someone to do as they please. They may offer a gift or a favor, or, more menacingly, they may dangle something they know means a lot to you over your head and imply that they could find time to do it if you do something for them first.

Conversely, if someone has already done something nice for you in the past, they may use that old favor to convince you that it’s time for you to do something for them.

4.    “PROTECTION”

Many emotional blackmailers like to take on the role of a protector because they can do whatever they want under the guise of such “protection.”  Someone who is trying to blackmail you will likely be very controlling and claim it is for the greater good. They may say things like:

“I do all of this for you.”

“I’m just looking out for you.”

“I care about you, that’s why I’m doing this.”

“Don’t you appreciate all I’ve done for you?”

“I only have your best interests at heart.”

Primarily, they use this as a means to control those around them while pretending not to be blackmailers – an easy success for them, as most emotionally abused individuals have difficulty characterizing mistreatment of any kind as abuse. Some even positively view those actions.

It’s important to remember that the kindness of anyone towards you does not make you indebted to them. You are under no requirement to put up with things you aren’t fond of just because someone has positive intentions – and especially if those intentions are secretly bad ones in disguise.

5.    PUNISHMENT

There are healthy ways to get some time and space to process a disagreement. Discipline is not one of them. This involves a blackmailer letting you know indirectly that you’re to blame for what happened and that you must suffer consequences:

Ignoring you for hours on end after an argument

Giving you the cold shoulder for days

Trying to make you feel anxious, jealous, or angry

Refusing to acknowledge your sadness or emotions

Withholding information from you to spite you

These seem like insignificant things, but what they do is slowly but surely teach you that fights, disagreements, or other problems will lead to a “punishment” of sorts, which will make you feel even more terrible. You may begin doing everything you can to avoid these disagreements

6.    MENTIONS OF HARMING THEMSELVES

An emotional blackmailer may threaten to harm themselves, instead of threatening to harm others. They are banking on the idea that you would be frightened for them, so they imply that if they harm themselves, it will be you who is to blame. They may say things like:

“I will hurt myself if you don’t do this for me.”

“I’ll probably just end my life if even you aren’t willing to help me.”

“If you go, I’ll commit suicide.”

“I hope you know that if I don’t wake up tomorrow, it’ll be because of what you did.”

“I guess I’ll just have new scars after having to deal with this all on my own, huh?”

Emotional blackmailers believe that these threats can help them gain control over you. There are also less severe versions of these kinds of threats that don’t mention physical self-harm but still count as emotional blackmail. These statements can include:

“Do this for me, or I’ll be really upset”

“I’d be so unhappy if you didn’t help me out with this”

“I’ll probably cry all night long if you don’t do what I asked”

“I thought you cared about me enough to do this, and I’m hurt that this relationship is more one-sided than I thought.”

“You’re going to ruin my whole night!”

7.    CALCULATIVE BEHAVIOR

An emotional blackmailer is often calculative, as this is the best bet they have at controlling you with factual or statistical evidence. The numbers don’t lie, but a healthy friendship or relationship of any kind doesn’t involve perfect 50/50 split rules – they require an exchange of giving and take. A blackmailer may perform the following calculative behaviors:

They do things for you to get something in return

Keeping a perfect score of how much you’ve done for each other

Always expecting you to make up for the time they’ve spent on you

They use their past positive behavior as proof that you owe them something

8.    BLAMING

Emotional blackmailers never want to be in the wrong. They will always find a way to shift blame onto you, refusing to take responsibility. Common phrases include:

“Look what you made me do!”

“I had no way of knowing about that.”

“You should have been clearer.”

“I only did it because of what you did first!”

“This isn’t my fault.”

“You should have stopped me.”

9.    THREATS

Blackmailers very commonly make threats to get what they want. They behave this way to gain control over the situation. Indeed, you have to either obey or risk their wrath. Here are some of the common threats performed by emotional blackmailers.

·         THREATS AGAINST THEMSELVES

We’ve already covered this, but it warrants saying again: an emotional blackmailer may threaten to injure themselves so you will feel guilty and do whatever you can to not be to blame for such an event.

·         THREATS AGAINST WHAT YOU CARE ABOUT

An emotional blackmailer may threaten to break your belongings, hurt the people you love, or ruin your chances at something. These are all hazardous signs of aggression and should not be taken lightly.

·         THREATS AGAINST YOU

If someone is making threats against you, this is a serious matter, and you should go to the police and spend the night with people you can trust. Many people make the mistake of brushing off threats with positive thinking, but many physically abusive relationships begin with emotional abuse. Protect yourself.

10. REPEATED SHAMING FOR FLAWS

It’s okay to be honest and direct about someone’s flaws. But always harping on every minor misstep someone makes is not healthy at all. Someone who wants to blackmail you may do these things to lower your self-esteem so they can get through to you in your compromised state.

This behavior can cause you to doubt yourself, and it can even make you anxious and afraid. You may second guess everything you do, only to have the blackmailer assure you that only they are being honest with you. This will cause you to rely on them more than they deserve, and it may make you feel like no one else could like you, so you’re stuck with them.

[aj-the-psycho]

The Hour: A Sanders Sides Story - Chapter 16

A PROPOSITION

TW: None

Summary: Logan had a proposition for Patton which made him excited.

Note: In all honesty, I’m not sure about this chapter. It’s sort of awkward. Enjoy!

AO3 Link

It was still early. Much too early for this. This is never going to work. That was a stupid idea, but he really wanted to try. ‘Is it wise for me to risk it?’ His mind kept sifting through all possible outcomes if he did it. He wasn’t usually anxious like this. ‘Maybe, I should ask Roman for help? No… he’s going to be dramatic and potentially ruin whatever chance you have,’ He thought to himself. ‘Do I even have a chance?’

Logan was confused, which was very unusual for him. Most times, confusion would only spur him to discover more, research more, find out more. However, this time, it was a different kind of confusion. This one, involved his soulmate. And with the concept of soulmate, it brings about the topic of emotions and a heap of icky feelings. ‘How irritating.’ Maybe, he did need Roman’s help. He is, after all, more emotionally competent and more of a romantic person than Logan is. ‘I’ll call him later.’

What is he so frustrated about, you asked? Logan was confused about what he felt towards Patton. In the time that they’ve gotten to know each other, Logan noticed that they have a good—some might even say great—friendship. He wasn’t denying that he did, in fact, liked Patton. And now, onto the frustrating part: how exactly does he like Patton?

He tried to compare his affection towards Roman with how he felt towards Patton.

Roman was like a brother to him. They met in the second week of third grade, twelve years ago. Granted, they didn’t get along too well at first, but eventually the two young boys warmed up to each other. Now, they have a very special brand of friendship. So special in fact, that some people who didn’t know them would think that they’re romantically involved. He cared about Roman like how an older brother would worry about his bratty little brother. Making sure that the little one was taking care of himself and helping him through his problems.

With Patton, it was different, but it was also the same. Logan cared about Patton in a way that he wanted to take care the other man. He cared about Patton in the way that he had the urge to keep him safe, keep him happy. The first time they met, something in Logan’s brain had switched. Like something that used to be dark is now bright. And he didn’t know what to say about it. The way he felt about Patton was exactly like what he felt towards Roman; caring, almost nurturing—yet it was very different. Which was so frustrating, because ‘How can it be the same and different at the same time?’

That morning, Logan was planning on something, but he didn’t know how to properly execute his plan. He might need his best friend’s help for that. However, he was still deciding whether he should do it or not. On one hand, if he did it, his relationship with Patton would somewhat progress. It wasn’t a terrible thought, until he consider all the emotional baggage. Though, he was willing to bare that weight. For Patton. That being said, if his plan didn’t work, his relationship with Patton would be ruined. ‘I need to call Roman.’

---------

It was eight a.m. and Roman was sitting in his dining room, sipping coffee and staring out the window, watching the world wake up. He sat where a patch of sunlight would shine on his face, because even without an audience he needed to be extravagant—though, not to the usual extreme. His peace was interrupted by the cacophonous ringing of his phone. Groaning, he set the coffee down on the dining table and went to his room to retrieve his phone.

Seeing the caller ID, he became a little irritated, but Logan doesn’t usually call him—especially not this early in the morning—which meant that something was wrong. He thought he would be able to just do nothing since it’s weekend and he could continue writing his original play project. But, maybe not.

“Hi, Logan. It’s still early.” Roman greeted with a hint of annoyance in his voice while his feet took him back to the dining room where he left his cup of coffee.

“Roman, good morning. I think I require your help, urgently.” Logan spoke.

“Help about what? The last time you asked me for help, it didn’t end well. At least for me.”

“Well, Roman, I wanted to—I wanted to ask Patton out.”  The hesitation is Logan's voice was apparent. And Roman knew Logan never hesitate.

“What’s so difficult, Logan? You’ve done it, like, a hundred times already. I mean, from what I know, you guys had gone on a few outings, right?”

“Yes, what I meant was I wanted—I meant to—it’s more of a date than an outing, Roman! How is that so difficult to understand?” On the other end of the phone, Logan was sitting in his living room, fists clenched and face slightly flushed.

“Oh, wooooooow…” Roman said, drawing out his word with his eyes wide open. “Worry not my friend, I am here to assist you.”

“Yes, so what should I do Roman?”

“I’ll come to your place, then we can talk about this.”

“I don’t you coming over is necessa—” Logan’s sentence was cut off with Roman hanging up the phone.

Roman chugged the slightly-too-hot coffee and winced. After he recovered, he dashed to the bathroom to clean himself up. He had a mission to do.

---------

“You know, Logan, it’s really not that hard.” Roman was getting a little bit—a lot—frustrated after all of his ideas were turned down. It had been an hour of discussion, suggestions put forward and rejected. He thought Logan needed his help, but he kept rejecting his ideas. ‘If he knew that “it’s not going to work, Roman,” then maybe he doesn’t really need my help.’

“Look, Logan, you turned down all my ideas, so my advice is… to just go the old-school way.”

“What does that mean?!” Logan was pacing back and forth in the living room while Roman watched him from his seat on the sofa.

“I mean,” Roman started again, ready for his last idea to be rejected. “You should just... call him and tell him that you want to take him out.”

Logan paused on his track in the middle of the living room. Earlier, he had actually thought of just calling his soulmate and straight out asking him. However, Logan was afraid that he would get rejected. If he did call Patton, Logan didn’t actually know what he wanted to say. He let out a heavy sigh and plopped himself next to Roman on the sofa. “I don’t know, Roman. I thought of that this morning, but I don’t even know what I would say once Patton pick up the call.”

“Just try, Logan. Or maybe, if you don’t want to call him, just text him.”

So, that’s what Logan did.

From: Me

To: Patton

[09:12]

Good morning, Patton. I hope you’re having a pleasant time.

I have a proposition for you.

---------

Patton was sitting on the park bench, still thinking about Damien’s question. ‘What did it feel like the first time he met Logan?’ Well, for one, it felt right. Like finally solving a big piece of puzzle. But then, he also felt like there was another new, more complicated piece of puzzle presented to him. This one, he couldn’t solve it by himself. When he first met Logan, it felt like he had just found something that he thought he didn’t need. Which was an odd feeling, yet satisfying in a way.

Damien had left to buy more coffee from the little stall at the gate of the park when Patton felt his phone buzzed in his pocket. A text from Logan. Logan doesn’t usually text. Normally, he would just call, because—as Logan explained to him—it was easier to get a message across when they are talking to each other, rather than through text which could easily be misinterpreted. Patton thought that made sense. After reading the text, he sent a quick reply.

From: Me

To: Logie

[09:14]

Proposition? It’s only been like a month and a half, Lo…

From: Logie

To: Me

[09:14]

No, Patton. What I meant was, I have a plan.

From: Me

To: Logie

[09:15]

Okay, what is it?

---------

Logan nervously stared at Patton’s reply. He didn’t know how to answer that question. It was a simple question, but it was so difficult to answer. He showed the text to Roman, to which he reacted by giving Logan a stern look. A look which said, “You know the answer to that.” Logan just sighed and typed a reply.

From: Me

To: Patton

[09:17]

Are you free tomorrow? I would like to take you out on an outing.

What I meant by that is a date.

Though, only if you are fine with it.

---------

Patton couldn’t help the squeal that escaped his throat. He held his phone close to his chest, restraining himself from bolting up and jumping up and down. He did, however, stomped his feet on the ground over and over in excitement. Finally! Patton wasn’t actually sure if he had any romantic feelings towards Logan, but he was willing to try. Eager to try. He never brought up the subject of a romantic relationship to Logan, because from what Patton had gathered from their past outings, it looked like Logan was unsure. Of what, Patton didn’t know. Now, Logan was starting to open up to him a little more. This time, maybe they could actually get somewhere.

“What’s up, bro.” Damien was back with two cups of steaming coffee. He sat down on the bench again, setting the cups of coffee on the bench in between them. Patton looked very happy and excited—which was very common—but Damien rarely ever see his brother looking this excited.

“LOOK AT THIS!” Patton practically shoved his phone onto Damien’s chest in uncontrolled elation. He didn’t know why he was this happy about the idea of going on a date with Logan, but he didn’t care. He was just so excited for everything that could happen.

Damien smiled when he read the text. If his brother was this happy about just being asked on a date, he couldn’t wait until the day Logan proposed to Patton—if he ever will and Damien was sure he will. “Are you not going to reply him, Pat?”

“Oh, right.” Patton snatched the phone back and sent an enthusiastic reply to Logan.

From: Me

To: Logie

[09:21]

Yes! Of course I can go tomorrow! Just send me the time and place, I’ll be there.

I’m sooooo happy you asked!!!

Patton wasn’t sure why he typed that last bit of sentence, but he had to let Logan know how excited he was.

---------

Logan was still waiting for a reply. It’s been two minutes and no replies. Did he scare Patton off? Was this too early for him to ask Patton on a date? ‘Shoot, I ruined it.’ He threw Roman a worried look. He was sure that he had blew the little chance he had to build a relationship with his soulmate. Of course it wasn’t a great idea to ask him on a date. Who wants to be with a weird guy like him? It didn’t matter that Patton was his soulmate, he still had the right to reject Logan. And from the looks of it, it wasn’t an unlikely thing to happen at the moment.

“Give it time, Lo. Maybe he’s just processing what you told him. I mean, you never asked him on a date before, so he might be surprised—and I mean in a good way—or he might be a little overwhelmed?—which is not a bad thing, alright…” Roman was starting to ramble about things. He wasn’t actually sure if Patton would send a positive or negative reply—that is, if he will reply at all. He wanted to take Logan off his worries, at least temporarily. He knew that Logan had been rejected a lot when they were younger—both platonically and romantically, and sometimes even by his own family. He knew that it was hard for Logan to face another rejection, so he would be there for Logan.

After another two minutes, Patton finally replied. Logan nervously opened the message and read it carefully. After he read the message, he had to read it again in case he misread it the first time. His face didn’t show an ounce of emotion, which made Roman a little concern.

“Well? What does it say, Lo?” Roman asked cautiously. Logan answered his question by throwing his phone at Roman with a deadpan look on his face.

“Oh God, Roman, what do I even do now?” Logan laid back on the sofa, his torso sagged both in relief and worry.

“Holy hell, Logan! He said yes! Oh my goodness! I thought he said something else. Geez, Logan, don’t you ever react like that again. I mean, your face gave away nothing that I thought he—”

“Roman, please,” Logan interrupted. “What do I do now? He said yes, so what am I going to do?” He was nervous again. This was the second time Roman had seen Logan anxious like this. He didn’t see this side of Logan too often, but he knew his best friend well. If Logan was nervous, it’s usually about his grades or about his family. If Logan was nervous, that means he cares about whatever it was he’s nervous about. Now Roman could see it. How Logan was actually happy that Patton had accepted his offer by the way he blinked slower, the way his fingers were laced together in contentment and how a slight smile rested on his lips. Roman smiled at his best friend. He’s going to help Logan.

“Now,” Roman said with his trademark booming voice, “you are going to make a reservation in a fancy restaurant for the two of you tomorrow evening. But I know that’s not your style, so I will help you make another plan for your date tomorrow!” He was already coming up with ideas in his head.

Logan was glad to have Roman as a best friend. Really, he wouldn’t know what he would do without Roman. He appreciated that Roman was always there when Logan needs him, so he tried his best to return the favor every time Roman had any problem. He was grateful that Roman cared for him, enough that he knew what Logan like and dislike, what kind of person Logan was and how to handle Logan in general.

“Alright,” Logan said calmly with a gentle smile, a fond look in his eyes. “Calm down, Roman. It’s my date, not yours.”

“Okay, Captain Spectacles, no need to get bossy.” Roman said with mock irritation, but his eyes held a joyous shine and his lips were upturned into a bright smile. He was happy for Logan.

---------

That night…

From: Logie

To: Me

[21:14]

I’ll inform you about the time and place for the date tomorrow.

Have a pleasant night, Patton.

**********

Hello again, wonderful readers. It has been another chapter and thank you very much for reading. I don't know how long this story will actually be, but since my chapters are short, it will definitely have many chapters. So, I hope you don't mind and keep reading!

Leave a comment on what you think will happen or would like to happen in Logan and Patton's date! I will have fun reading those comments and maybe get some inspiration from you. If I do adapt one of your ideas, I will credit you (don't worry, I will not steal, because ideas are difficult to come by!)

See you in the next one!!

#sanders sides #thomas sanders #anxiety sanders #virgil sanders #creativity sanders #roman sanders #prinxiety #morality sanders #patton sanders #logic sanders #logan sanders #logicality #sleep sanders #remy sanders #deceit sanders #symapthetic deceit #sleepceit #desleep #receit #sanders sides au #sanders sides soulmate au #sanders sides human au

[chimswae]

Chapter 18

Foreword:

Some stories are better left unsaid.I couldn’t change anything for the world, although the fame part of this industry is tough to handle.Do i have a life? Yes I have my fans.Do i have friends? Yes the members that I cherish. Do i have love? No I have to let go.Life always offers you a second chance. It’s called tomorrow. But do i have any tomorrow?

Pairing: Jimin x OC (Other characters: BTS, OCs, Lee Taehwan)

Genre: Idolau, Fluff, Romance

Word Count: 2,890

Author Note: I crosspost this story from my Asianfanfic account. Mind you, clicheness OVERLOADS

1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18

Chapter 18:  Insecurities can be super loud

“Taehwan, marry me”

 He almost choked on his food after hearing such a blunt and ridiculous request from the girl in front of him. What got into that thick head of hers? Was she crazy after all the torment from the medias and Bangtan’s fans?

 “ARE YOU CRAZY? Stop fooling around that is not funny”

 “I am dead serious, marry me” he felt Yeoul’s hard stare on his face penetrating his soul and it mortified him. What on earth was that? Did he hear it right or was him having a bad dream from his nap?

Taehwan eyed the desperate girl with a glint of fear plus anger, it was a stupid request. No matter how much he loved Yeoul, he would never give in to such request. There must be something bothering her and he was about to find out.

 “Listen Na-ssi, I flew all over from Busan to Japan not to hear this crap from you. What is bothering you woman. Tell me right now” crossing his arms, Taehwan leaned back in his seat watching her fidgeting in her seats.

Yeoul seemed disturbed and distorted. He was well aware, she’s under pressure by medias and Bangtan’s fans but that didn’t mean she allowed herself to propose a man like himself to marry her right way. Crazy as it sound, but Yeoul really did it few minutes ago.

 Taehwan almost fell for it. If it weren’t for the thought of Minyeol and Jimin, he would say yes without doubt.

 “I cant do this anymore” Yeoul exhaled a heavy sigh as she facepalmed.

 He kept his mouth shut giving her space to continue “ I…am ruining Bangtan’s life, each of them” her eyes watered.

 “And why do you think that?” he raised one of his eyebrows out of habit.

 As if like a cue, her tear cascaded like a sudden downpour of rain “ They are at the verge of losing their important jobs, some company tried to cut ties with them. There were even riots in front of their office building as a protest and Jimin is losing his fans one by one. It is me to blame, the boys are the victim. It sounded crazy but I don’t want to risk Jimin and the whole group losing the title that they have worked so hard!” she exclaimed with a sob.

 Her body was shaking uncontrollably causing Taehwan to automatically embraced her close to him “Na Yeoul you fool. Stop blaming yourself. Reality sucks I know, but this is life. We cant stop people because we have different heart and intention. As for Bangtan, you are not responsible for everything happen to them. In fact, this situation helped them to see who’s the real people who have their back and who’s not” he caressed her back.

 “Cant you see. Business who backed out from the contract is just another peasant who seek for better opportunity to widen their business. They are being a businessman, it is the life circle. These people will eventually come to seek for Bangtan once everything settled, I bet on it” he shook his head.

 “Speaking of the fans. Those who left are not even real Armys, do you think if you genuinely love a person you will simply leave them over a petty problems like this? Normally what you will do is that to sit down and hear it out from both side. Now, even after Jimin has told everyone everything don’t you think he deserves the chance to be forgiven. Since, the fans have heard it all.. if they still are leaving meaning, their love for Bangtan is not genuine” he tried to comfort Yeoul whom seemed had calm down a little after listening to Taehwan reasonable pep talk.

 Taehwan rubbed the tears that stained her cheeks with a genuine smile “Now come again, why are you proposing to me what it is on your mind?” she mewled suddenly became embarrassed of her sudden outburst.

 “I thought.. by proving to public that I am with someone else that will help to return back his image as it was” she reasoned.

 Humming softly, Taehwan tapped the bridge of her nose “That is silly. The whole world knows he loves you, if you suddenly married to me Jimin will receive harsher critique from public. You don’t want to ruin him don’t you?” the girl frantically shook her head with a sniff.

 “What should I do Tae?” her eyes were full with fear and regret. She wasn’t on he right mind when she said those words to him, now her mind was totally blank. What else could she do to help Jimin?

 “I think Jimin knows what he’s doing. He’s already feeling so down don’t add the pain. He needs you and Minyeol, that’s all he got. Please don’t ever think of trying to propose another man” he frowned and pushed her forehead lightly with his knuckles.

 Her lips twitched into a slight pout “I am sorry, wasn’t in the right mind. Kind of grateful you didn’t say yes, that would be so mess up if you did” she joked.

 “Dream on woman. I am trying to move on please don’t encourage me even further” she chuckled at sulky Taehwan. If it weren’t for Taehwan who kicked the sense back in her, she had zero idea what would happen to her. She kept on repeating the same mistakes all over again. It was about time to learn how to think without involving emotion in it because the outcomes were different.

 It’s definitely wise to mend her emotions before coming out with a solutions just in case it was a vice versa, things could turn out awfully mess up.

 ------------------

 “Appa…” Minyeol tackled his sleeping dad into a hug as he showered Jimin’s face with kisses, “Wakey wakey appa wakey” he urged.

 Jimin crack a wide grin with his eyes still close “Hmmm two minutes baby” he wounded his arm around the boy, pulling him to lay with him together on bed. Minyeol presence here really helped him emotionally to cope with problems that he currently facing. This innocent child was a true miracle for him and Yeoul.

 He was beyond happy that Bang PD really brought Minyeol back in their arms minus the part Taehwan was coming along to accompany Minyeol. No hard feelings but still that guy was crushing on his girl. Jimin was alarmed.

 Nonetheless, thanks to Taehwan again for looking after Yeoul and Minyeol when he wasn’t be able to physically be there for them. Jimin tried to be friendly with him for the sake of Minyeol at least. He knew how his son favored his Taehwan samchon.

 Minyeol squealed in delight as he felt Jimin lips tickle his cheeks “Appa no… Omma said you have to get up in 1, 2 3..” the latter then continued to count but come to an end earlier than he planned when Jimin attacked him with kisses and tickle.

 His laughter echoed in the room but thankfully they got the room to himself not worrying it might  annoy any sleeping souls especially Min Yoongi, if he ever heard something this loud ruining his precious sleep-sleep time.

 Yeoul came out with a bathrobe to be welcomed with Jimin and Minyeol sparring on the bed “I am babysitting two babies, I believe” she chuckled to herself.

 “OMMAAA~~ APPA BITES YEOLLIE TUMTUM” he shrieked adorably.

 Not caring and did not even have any intention to lend her hand for a help, Yeoul only walked pass them to put on her clothes. Her steps came to a halt when Jimin wrapped his hand around her wrist, tugging her down which she ended up sinking in bed together with them.

 “You are not going anywhere” a playful smug played across his lips.

 Minyeol then took the chance of distracted Jimin, straight to Yeoul arm complaining about his tumtum being bitten by his daddy. Chuckling away, Yeoul rubbed his tummy while blowing softly sending the pain away.

 On the other hand, Jimin was lying by his side witnessing this beautiful scene in front of him. He sure had missed a lot of things but seeing how Yeoul handle their son sent butterflies in his own tumtum. Jimin kept on chanting in his head how lucky he was to have Yeoul back in his life. No regrets, happiness started to consume him.

 Feeling his gaze on her, her head perked up to Jimin’s direction after pampering the younger boy “Good morning handsome” she leaned in for a quick smooch on his lips that snapped him out of his trance.

 The corner of his lips pulled into a charming smile. How endearing.

 “Morning , love” his voice brittle in most sexy way most probably because he just woke up.

 “Breakfast in 10 minutes. Jin oppa came few minutes ago, he asked you to come down” tapping his nose softly, she giggled.

 Jimin pouted “Cant we have breakfast on bed instead?” he tucked strand of hair behind her ears with a playful wink.

 “Your breakfast in bed is an unhealthy one not that food kind of breakfast. Now chop chop, stop flirting and shower!” she squished his cheeks together.

 “CHOP CHOP QUICKIE SHOWER!” Minyeol mimicked his mother with a happy clap.

 Pulling Minyeol into a tight hug, he rubbed their face together “Lets shower stinky boy” Yeoul watched their figure disappeared behind the door and quickly changed into a comfortable outfit.

 She promised to bring Minyeol to sightseeing with Taehwan today while Jimin insisted to tag along, Yeoul turned down his offer without mercy. He must join their concert rehearsal since Sapporo would be their very last stop before taking a break from touring.

 Not long after, there came a frantic knock at the door. Yeoul tilted her head in confusion and quickly opened the door only to be greeted by a panic Jungkook. He was out of breath, did he actually run to reach here? She thought their room was at the same level but different at different wings.

 Dropping the formality between them, Jungkook wasted no time to ask her a favor “Yeoul! Do you know how to do a first aid?” his already round eyes widened even more.

 “Mmm..kind of? But depends on the situation. What is wrong Kkuk? Did someone get hurt?”

 The younger boy blurted “Namjoon hyung! He stubbed his toes on one of the chairs. Sejin hyung was out with Jin hyung so Hobi hyung and I have no idea what to do. Please help us” his lips was subconsciously curled up into a slight pout.

 Yeoul gasped “Oh my god that is bad! Lets go!” she closed the door behind her and mindlessly followed Jungkook to the east.

--------------

 “OWWWW JUNG FRIGGIN HOSEOK THAT HURTS LIKE HELL. FUCK” Namjoon cussed in English which seemed foreign to Hope’s ears, but he understood the last part and quickly removed his hand from damaging their leader’s toes.

 “I am sorry. I googled this and they said to press it like this” he blinked innocently.

 “YAH! THAT IS FOR SPRAINED ANKLE! NOT FOR THIS” he continued to hiss in pain. Gritting his teeth together, Namjoon clutched his pain trying to calm down his nerve. Why was he so clumsy?

 Both Jungkook and Yeoul strutted inside the room with a panic look, Namjoon heaved a relief sigh upon seeing Yeoul. Finally someone that he could trust.

”Thank god you came! One more minute, Hope unprofessional treatment will cost me life” he whined like a little kid. Hoseok decided to sulk at the corner while glaring at Namjoon’s way, feeling unappreciated.

 Yeoul shook her head with an apologetic smile “ It is alright oppa, Hobi oppa tried to help you even though it is a little too much for him” she shot Hoseok a     quick wink causing the older boy to pout even more.

 “Okay let me fix this” she knelt down before Namjoon, propping his injured legs up on a stack of pillows with Jungkook’s help. She carefully examined the injured toe to find any broken or misplaced nail. As if in cue, Namjoon whine got louder and she assumed he probably had a fracture or sprain in his toe and foot.

 “Oppa, I think you need to see doctor. While waiting for you to be transferred there, I will disinfect this cut first” He only nodded as his teeth ground together trying to withstand the pain.

 Yeoul turned to Jungkook “Kkuk can you call your manager oppa and let him know Namjoon oppa needs to see doctor?”

 “Alright I will give hyung a call again”

 As soon as she noticed the abrasions on his toes, she requested Hoseok to assist her in getting materials that she needed to disinfect Namjoon’s cut. Hoseok watched Yeoul gently cleaned the toes with soap and warm water. After making sure it is all cleaned, she dried his toe carefully not to hurt Namjoon with a clean cloth, and applying anti-bacterial cream onto it before wrapping it up with a clean bandage.

 “Now stay still until your manager come to get your injury checked” she patted his knees with a warm smile.

 “Thank you Yeoul-ah…” ruffling her hair softly, Yeoul arose to her feet and his ears were greeted with Jimin and Minyeol voice. Maknae must have told him about Namjoon, considering that they were here already.

 -------------------

 “It is really okay you don’t need to push yourself”

“But it is our last concert”

 “Yes it is, so what? Do you want to be it the last concert in your life or the last concert of our Wings Tour”

 “That sounds harsher!”

 “SO LISTEN TO ME! Stop moving around, you can just sit a the back and rap your line”

 “You are not doctor I am not listening to you”

 “KIM NAMJOON!”

 “KIM SEOKJIN”

 Yeoul slipped between the two breaking their staring game “Guys seriously, this is no time to fight. You have to be on stage in few minutes” Jin scoffed, rolling his eyes in annoyance. He was pissed off how stubborn Namjoon could be no matter how hard he tried to nail that brain of his, he just loved to talk back.

 “And you…You are not allowed to move around, the doctor said your foot need rest. Don’t blame Jin oppa, he is worried of you” she patted his shoulder with a concern look.

 Namjoon sighed “I know, but I don’t want to disappoint Armys”

 “You wont! In fact, they are proud of you” she cut him off.

 “How I wish Yeoul is Bangtan’s 7th member instead, tsk tsk Rap Monster behave now will you?” he poked his long finger on his forehead. She diverted her attention to Jimin whom already in his full makeup walking towards her with a cute smile.

 “Baby do I look okay?” pressing his lips together, he blinked cutely.

 “When was the last time you look ugly? You are dashing Jiminie” she soothed his collar and moved her finger to stroke the strand of his hair.

 “Now you are all ready! Go rock your last stage. Minyeol and I will be watching you from the audience seat” she whispered softly.

 He frowned “Will you be okay? To sit in such a huge crowd?”

 “Taehwan will be there so don’t worry. Do what you are best at, and we will enjoy your concert” Jimin wounded his arm around Yeoul small body, recharging himself before the concert starts. Whistles could be heard from every corner from the staffs and of course Sonyeodan boys teasing the lovebirds who seemed not to care with people surround them.

  ---------------

 Bangtan’s final concert in Sapporo went pretty well and it was finally the time to bid farewell to Armys embarking their last Wings Tour after months traveling around the globe. Overwhelmed by the response, the members stood still in the middle of the stage gazing every corner of arena. They had achieved so much to reach here together.

 They could feel their eyes watered to watch happy faces everywhere who enjoyed music that they created. They wished to come back with a stronger music and image. They promised to stay together until the end with Armys.

After each of the members bid their farewell individually, they were set to leave the stage but to their surprise someone ran up to the stage. The boys looked baffled since they assumed it was one of the floor managers, but she was charging to Jimin’s direction instead.

 Mortified, they could see securities running from different direction towards the stage. What on earth just happened? Fans in the arena were buzzing in curiosity as they tried to get a better view of the mystery girl on stage.

 SMACK!

 Jimin could feel his cheeks sting from the sudden attack, not once but twice.

 “JIMIN!” Seokjin screamed in agony.

 “WHAT THE HELL” Yoongi cussed as he quickly pulled Jimin behind him and eyed the girl dangerously close with anger.

 “WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU?” he scowled. Other members reached confused Jimin, making sure he was protected and not being harassed even further.

 “Tae ah! Lets head to backstage! What just happened?” Yeoul stood in her seat and picked Minyeol up. The three of them squished between the crowd who seemed as confused as them and making their way to the backstage.

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This work belongs to  Chimswae © 2019. All Rights Reserved

#bts series #bts fic #bts fanfic #bts fluff #bts idolau #bts romance #bts jimin #lee taehwan #taehwan #bts v #bts suga #bts jungkook #bts rm #bts jhope #bts jin #untoldseries

[bettsfic]

Whaaaa have u finished s5?????!!!! THOUGHTS???

i mean overall, critically speaking, it was probably one of the best single seasons of any teen tv show i’ve ever watched. like top 10, up there somewhere with buffy s2. the plot was tightly wrought, most things that happened made sense (which is something i’ve learned to let slide with this show), and every character had a reasonable motivation for doing what they were doing. granted, the bar was painfully low after s3 and 4, but i think if i picked up this show at s5 without seeing any of the prior seasons i still would have loved it.

THAT SAID, because i have seen the rest of the series, some of the OOC elements bothered me. i only saw a few glimpses of clarke’s history as the great wanheda (that quick knife to niylah’s throat? NICE). i didn’t like that all of her motivation had been reduced to motherhood when we’ve seen her in the past as a leader and lover and fighter and healer. BUT i also really loved the clexa moments, which didn’t feel cheap at all to me, and made clarke’s relationship with madi much more interesting after several cringey moments of “i’m willing to torture you to protect you.” similarly i didn’t like that abby’s character was reduced to her addiction and that guided everything she did. i like addiction narratives, but only when they’re not a plot device, which this very much was.

conversely, i think bellamy became more complex somehow, and his arc made sense -- he had six years in space to think on shit, and that changes a person. he continues to be probably the only truly trustworthy character on the show (i mean trustworthy to the audience) because his sense of loyalty is consistent and overrides all other traits, and his conflict (like captain america’s) always involves the compromise of his loyalty. in the case of this season, the people he’d spent six years with, or his sister, who is only a shadow of the person she once was. bellamy remains one of my favorite television characters of all time. (also note, i LOVED his fight scenes this season -- i can’t tell if it’s bob or the choreographers but all of them were really beautifully done, and it was a refreshing change of pace to not see him constantly beaten down every other minute. his face was only bloodied in one episode all season!!). 

BELLARKE?? the bellarke moments were so good and so infuriating. as much as i appreciated them, i just kept thinking about what the show would be like if they’d gone canon at different points earlier on, and how that would make their relationship so complex. if they’d been together during praimfaya and bellamy spent six years thinking she was dead. if they had the same ride-or-die loyalty of monty and harper or the passion of murphy and emori, and how much more interesting that would make the show and the characters and -- well, i also firmly believe that any romance arc shouldn’t stretch over 5 seasons, so at this point it’s looking more like a gimmick to keep people watching, and i think if it were really confident in its quality, it wouldn’t need to use slow burn romantic tension to engage its audience. too much build-up ruins the breaking point, ya feel? five seasons is enough.

anyway. raven, sadly, never gets a character arc in order to let her either grow or shrink because, being the engineer, she’s always forced into a function of plot. in every season, her job is to move a machine from point A to B, and her obstacle is always physical torture. it’s a shame because i think lindsay’s performance is so good. i dug zeke’s character and their romance, though, so i hope to see more of that in s6. 

and murphy. wow. for the first time we get an actual internal arc. even if it’s as blunt and heavy-handed as a brick, murphy had no clear-cut external goal, and everything about his growth this season was his internal acceptance of usefulness and heroism. as i type this i’m seeing a pattern, though, because emori, despite having a very interesting potential arc as grounder-turned-engineering-apprentice, was reduced to a function of murphy’s self-realization. i would have liked more development for both characters, because i think they were really close to something epiphanic that never got fully formed and had the potential to advance the moral cornerstones of the story.

ugh, echo. fuck echo. i think the only way she could be redeemed to me is if she showed bellamy the same loyalty she had once shown roan, and bellamy, rather than turning that loyalty romantic, would have dismissed it as being forced and toxic and destructive, so echo would be forced to actually consider herself as an individual rather than a member of a unit. but everything about their relationship was so sloppily done, and i found myself looking away whenever she was on screen. (which is not at all about the performance, which, again, was stellar.)

monty and harper provided a fraction of a wider perspective toward fixing what i think is the ultimate problem of the show, which is that the writing seems grossly unaware of its own moral assumptions. and maybe i’m projecting because i recently got that same feedback from an author i really admire (and he was right) but i may have internalized it so much i see it in other things now. monty and harper provided a much-needed “we don’t have to participate in this, and there are other solutions to be found” pacifist perspective which really helped round-out the season and provided a breath of fresh air to an otherwise exhaustingly dark plot. 

diyoza? stellar. perfect. wonderful. 10/10. a competent, lawful neutral to act as a foil to octavia’s chaotic neutral leadership. i liked that she was pregnant, but i disliked that her motivation and mcreary’s weakness was reduced to their feelings about that pregnancy, so it felt like just a gimmick to manipulate the plot and tip the scales against mcreary. 

kane is always fab, but i’m biased because i think henry ian cusick is the second best actor on the show. i wish he was more coherent as a character. as it stands he’s just kind of silly putty that gets formed into whatever he needs to be. i would be SO HERE for a kane/diyoza/abby triangle (which i would turn into an OT3 immediately). the daddy vibes this season were great. 

one of the most understated characters has always been indra, played by the best actress on the show, adina porter. this season i really adored her relationship with gaia. i don’t think i’ve ever seen a mother/daughter relationship as formal and loving as theirs, and how it seamlessly encompassed their respective love/worship of octavia. they’re a good example of characters how further the plot but also get to be actual characters. idk why it’s so hard for this show to figure out the difference between plot devices and characters but it’s really hit or miss.

aaaaand then there’s octavia. i was pissed earlier in the season that jaha was killed off just for the sake of landing some leadership advice, because i really liked jaha’s character and (like many of the more competent characters who are put into the hands of incompetent writers [see: lexa]) thought he’d been poorly utilized the past 3 seasons. i don’t get why octavia was the leader at all?? like, kane, indra, abby, and jaha were all more qualified, and they were all in the bunker together. i think there was supposed to be some commentary on charisma and loyalty or something but it got lost in the heavy-handed “we do what it takes to survive” and “we pursue violence for peace” rhetoric that oversaturates the entire show because jroth can’t think of anything deeper or more meaningful to say about the complexity of being (and it’s what will probably get the show canceled in the next year or so -- no growth in moral reasoning = no new drama to be found). the only part that really sold me was octavia’s decision to shoot the people who refused to eat, even though i thought it was a dumb premise to begin with, because the flashback was well-placed and the performance was great, and it showed a genuine breaking point between octavia and blodreina. 

if i had written the season, there were a lot of things i would have done differently (we get this ominous shot of the worms that doesn’t amount to anything, and a twist ending that felt cheap even if it was emotionally compelling), but in comparison to the prior seasons, i commended this season on not pulling its punches on the practical details like it’s always done (clarke eating windshield bugs to survive), threading in the consequences and details from all the prior seasons and the show’s own canon (abby using The Blight to motivate octavia into forcing everyone to eat), and overall slowing the fuck down (the entire season leads up to one [1] battle). 

i don’t think the show will ever fully recover from lexa’s death, which decimated its fanbase and lost trust in the writing, but s5 put up a decent mulligan of s4 to wrangle the juvenile moral quandaries the show attempts to assert. if s6 can advance the philosophical implications of its own world, lose the “our people” bullshit jargon, and focus on the fucking characters which is the only reason anyone watches the damn show, then i think it could really be up there with the other cult faves like buffy and star trek and supernatural. 

#the 100 spoilers #100 #meta #this got really long sorry!! #Anonymous

[fanfictionconnectionwordpress]

Mystic Messenger Fanfiction | JuminxMC Good Ending Continued | Denial

***I think I'm finally back! We have finally closed on my house in Texas after months of issues, and my grandmother has been laid to rest peacefully next to my grandfather as it should be. Grieving comes and goes, but I finally feel like I'm getting back into the groove of life, so I'm hoping I haven't lost all of you in the meantime T_T. The final chapter of JuminxMC should be next week! I'll then take a week off to prepare for SevenxMC!

Don’t forget to subscribe to the email list for access to R-Rated Scenes and my monthly newsletter. You can support my writing on patreon and get access to my VIP Discord Server or other goodies like early chapter releases and hidden scenes. JuminxMC Good Ending Continued Chapter Directory ~Let’s Connect! FFC***

There was something so strange about watching this woman from behind a piece of glass. She’d been trying to trick my husband into taking down the entirety of the RFA as well as our guests, and when she hadn’t gotten what she wanted, she’d put my life and the life of our second child at risk. Rika. I bit at my thumb nail as I looked through the glass as her. V and all the other ‘Disciples’ had been taken care of and sent to treatment along with Seven’s twin brother. Not long after, Seven had taken his brother from treatment at the hospital and run off with him. Yoosung was distraught, and he was here almost every day with Rika. It wasn’t until I’d gotten a call from a concerned Seven that I considered going to this hospital, but he was right, Yoosung needed someone, and he couldn’t be there for the blond right now.

I wasn’t sure why the task had fallen to me, and I was technically supposed to be on bedrest, but my heart went out to the younger man. He was a member of the RFA and Jumin always said it was important to take care of your friends and fellow members were even more important. My husband was always so practical about this kind of thing. He’d insisted I stay home and simply have Yoosung come to me, but as soon as he’d left for work, I had one of the bodyguards take me to the mental hospital, assuring him that I wouldn’t tell my husband which of the guards it had been who took me there.

Zen and Jaehee weren’t much help really either since Jaehee was trying to deal with the media hailstorm and Zen was helping her with whatever he could. That was somewhat strange to me. Zen was a helpful man as it was, and he did hate how much work Jaehee tended to get piled on herself, but he was really going out of his way for her. Maybe there was something more there than met the eye, just like Seven and Yoosung. Other than Jumin and I, it seemed all of the RFA was off having secret relationships when it came to the public eye.

Rika was walking around aimlessly at the moment and then suddenly she slammed her fists against the glass. “I know you’re out there~ Please, please let me out! I have to save everyone from her! She’s a liar!” The doctors had mentioned that Rika kept attempting to entice them to set her free, had even tried to grab a nurse’s syringe and stab her with it to escape, but she tended to play word games, and she was blaming me for everything. This was part of why I felt like I had rocks in my stomach, even though I knew I only had our second daughter and a perfectly cooked lunch, as always. Yoosung seemed to be shutting himself off to only contact with Rika and Seven, and that could only spell bad news, because he was even starting to pay less attention to the redhead too.

I heard the door open behind me and turned to see the blond walking into the hallway, violet eyes falling on me almost immediately and then turning cold. “MC.” He didn’t seem at all like his cheery self, not even for a moment, and the way he was looking at me actually felt like it made my heart stop in fear for a solid few seconds. I put on the bravest smile I could manage. “Yoosung! It’s good to see you again. I heard you were visiting Rika and wanted to come see you.”

He actually narrowed his eyes at me. It was very likely that he believed whatever stories Rika was telling him, and if so, then there had to be some way for me to get Rika to tell him the truth? I’d managed it when I walked in on her talking to Jumin and foiled her plans. Of course, that would be some shock therapy, because her attitude was completely different when she wasn’t pretending, but maybe it would break Yoosung out of whatever she was telling him now? “Maybe we should both head in to talk to Rika?”

Yoosung’s eyebrows furrowed, but he just nodded numbly before walking to the door where a nurse was waiting to let him in already, I just followed along. “Just don’t say anything mean to her. She’s trying to get better.” For the first time that day, Yoosung had talked to me, and I counted that as a win even despite the fact that he was being supportive of a person the doctors were saying they were pretty certain had actually been fully aware of what she was doing when she kidnapped and drugged all of those people. I just nodded to what the blond had said.

The way Rika’s eyes lit up upon seeing Yoosung and then dulled as I walked in made me shiver to my core, and the baby jumped in my belly in response before I patted it and Rika’s eyes flashed between my belly and my face. “I see she’s still breeding. Her hooks are so deep into Jumin, Yoosung, why would you bring her here?” Her voice was so sickly sweet, and Yoosung actually sounded nervous and apologetic as he responded. “I’m sorry, Rika! Whatever it is, I’m sure it’s just a huge misunderstanding. You’re just sick, and you’re going to get better. MC will help too! She’s not like V.”

Right, I was painted as the bad guy from Rika’s point of view, V included, but at least Yoosung had the sense to believe that I wasn’t the problem and that was a start. How long did I sit there listening to Rika’s little pleasantries and fake kindness before she would start to slip in snide and rude remarks? Each time she did so, it was like Yoosung would emotionally recoil as though slapped. It hurt him to see her not getting better, because she wasn’t just sick, she knew what she was doing. That much was obvious, but Yoosung was so far in denial, clinging to the hope that she would get better and be the woman he’d once admired. Was there really anything anyone could do to break him out of that?

Suddenly, Rika grabbed Yoosung’s hands, leaning over the table and making frightened glances my way. “Don’t you see, Yoosung? She’s being so sweet, but she’s hiding the truth! MC is going to take you all away from me. It was V’s plot from the beginning!” Yoosung was about to shake his head and deny it before Rika let go of his hands and turned on me, trying to get at me from her side of the table as I scooted back in my chair as quickly as I could with my heavy belly. There was a loud booming noise as the door slammed open. This was too much stress for me, and I felt like I was going to hyperventilate before I saw that it was my husband standing in the doorway.

Jumin’s dark grey eyes slid over all of us, surveying the situation and looking like a supervisor barging into the breakroom. “That’s enough, now, Rika.” His tones were so dark and cold like when he had to reprimand workers at his job that it felt like my comparison was accurate. Yoosung stood, his chair scraping against the floor as he faced Jumin. “You can’t just come in here! She doesn’t want to see you.” That was true, he’d been barred by Rika, but then again. “She didn’t want to see MC either, but you brought her. You’re just trying to find the truth, right Yoosung? Except you’re trying to find the truth that you want.”

My husband’s observation was spot on and Yoosung made soft little attempts at protests before he looked between all three of us. “I just…Wanted…MC isn’t a bad person…” Jumin sighed heavily and crossed his arms, his fingers tapping lightly against his sleeves. I was certain that he had realized I was gone after trying to text me and not receiving any answer since my phone was off in the hospital entrance. His eyes slid over me, and I could see his displeasure, but he looked back towards Rika who was starting to make a fuss again, her eyes wild. “We’re the only ones who know the truth, Yoosung! Don’t you see?!”

Yoosung immediately made a move as though to comfort her, but my husband reached out and pushed him away from the now shrieking and panicking woman. That was enough to make Yoosung angry as he pushed against Jumin’s arm to get over to Rika, but Jumin ended up moving to hold the younger and smaller man from behind. “Let me go!” was mirrored by Rika shrieking for Yoosung to be let go as well until Jumin called out over them. “I said enough.”

The world quieted, and I simply sat there watching, my mouth completely dry. What could I even do? I was just a spectator at the end of the day. Rika had seemed to completely shed her veneer as she huffed and her eyes glazed over to that lightless look, her voice smooth and soft like syrup. “I simply can’t stand up to you, Jumin.” Yoosung had stopped fighting Jumin, but now dropped his arms from Jumin’s completely, a look of confusion crossing his face. “Rika?”

Rika picked at her wrists for a moment before she turned her back to us, looking at us in the reflection on the window. “Yoosung won’t leave me no matter what you say to him, so no matter how hard you try, he’ll always be mine.” Jumin let go of Yoosung slowly as he started to blabber. “Of course I won’t leave you, Rika. You’re the best person I’ve ever known.” It almost seemed like Rika was in some sort of mental break as she started to babble too, grating laughs interrupting every once in a while. “All my Disciples weren’t even as loyal as Yoosung and Saeran…I should have brought Yoosung with me too! But V wouldn’t let me take the RFA, that’s why he pretended I was dead! He ruined everything.”

At this point, I wasn’t really paying attention to what she was saying. Instead, I was watching Yoosung’s face as the denial was starting to shatter. It was almost impossible to keep denying the truth when she was spitting it out right in front of you. At first, he was shaking his head, mumbling that she was sick, but she’d replied that she wasn’t, that that was how she wanted it, her darkness that V had tried to get rid of or something of that manner, and Yoosung went silent. Tears built in his eyes, but he just stared in silent horror now. He took a step back, forgetting that Jumin was behind him and bumping into my husband who was watching with a stoic expression. Yoosung turned to look up at Jumin, looking over at me then, and taking off into the hallway through the still open door as the tears started to fall from those violet eyes.

All of his denial had been shattered, and I could hear him crying so hard as he banged on the hallway door to be let out. “We should go after him-“ Jumin sent me a glare that froze my blood. It wasn’t the norm for him to be so angry with me as well, but he clearly was. “I’ve already called Zen to take him to Seven’s bunker. He has to deal with his brother, but he can’t abandon Yoosung either.” Rika was still going off on her tangent in the background, only now realizing we weren’t paying her any attention, so now she lunged towards me in the chair only to be backhanded by Jumin, stepping back to hold her cheek. “Nurse!”

At his call, a nurse appeared almost immediately, but I didn’t get much chance to see what else was happening before Jumin took my hand and pulled me out into the corridor. He was gentle and careful as always, but his grip was tighter than usual, and he was silent until we got into the car waiting for us out front. “You lied to me and put yourself in danger, our child in danger.” His tone was so cold, and I put my hands over my belly. “You know that bedrest is just because we had such a hard labor with our first daughter, not because I actually need it.” Jumin just huffed at my explanation, fixing his cufflinks. His façade was up, but now it faded as he stopped messing with them. “Don’t you understand…I was afraid?”

I bit at the inside of my cheek, feeling a pain in my chest. Only I ever got to see him so vulnerable, and I knew that it would worry him when I wasn’t where I was supposed to be, but I had been so focused on helping Yoosung. “I’m sorry…Yoosung needed help…and I didn’t realize how much I would hurt you.” Jumin looked towards me, our eyes locking for a solid few minutes, saying things we never could verbally. This man loved me so deeply, needed me to help him know that the world wasn’t made up of only liars, that it was okay to truly care for other people and show them that too, and I loved him so deeply too.

With another deep sigh, Jumin scooted towards me in the seat, wrapping his arms around me and pulling me against his chest as he put his face in my hair. “Don’t ever do that to me again, MC.” Being in his arms felt so safe and easily made any stress melt away, even if I still felt horribly guilty. “Promise me.” Could I really promise that I would never do something similar? “I can promise to never lie to you again…but I’ll always choose to help people.” I could almost feel the little chuckle that didn’t quite escape his lips. “I understand. That’s the type of woman I fell in love with. I just never expected it to become such a problem. I’m almost jealous when you choose to help others over listening to me, even in my own route.”

At heart, Jumin really was just a big softie. I nuzzled into his chest, feeling our child moving around and taking his hand to place it over the baby as well. He splayed his fingers over my belly automatically, a familiar feeling and something he did daily. “But I’ll always come back to you. You’re the man I chose.” Jumin kissed the top of my head. “I’ll take better care of you from now on.”

He pulled away from me to look down in to my eyes. “And I’ll do the same.” On some level, it was almost ominous when he talked about taking better care of me, because I knew that would mean him trying to set new rules and stipulations out of fear for me getting hurt or something happening to his now happy family of four, but that was a challenge I would always have to deal with, and I couldn’t help but smile and give him a soft kiss. There was no denying that I loved this man.

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[tinkdw]

The romantic writing of Dean / Cas (through deleted scenes)

OK, so full disclosure. This started as a simple answer but turned into a whole thing about TPTB and the meaning of deleted scenes and kind of therefore ended up as a Tink’s own small version of a masterpost of the writing of Destiel.

For me, deleted scenes are really important. They made their way to the DVD anyway so are part of canon, lets start with that. But they are deleted for a reason. And before that, they are though up, written, authorised, acted and edited for a reason.

For me the deleted scenes I list below are a big, core part of why I believe Dean and Cas are written romantically and that this is canon. Whether they decide to follow through on it is another matter but I and I know a lot of others agree that they are clearly written romantically and these deleted scenes uphold that. Then they are deleted. Now, some deleted scenes are for time but as you can see here, these scenes often hold key information regarding the overall narrative so clearly they are deleted because of the strong Destiel references. I like to believe this is because they just want to drag it out instead of completely get rid of it from the show, I was worried I’ll be honest before mid season 11 but since then I’m tentatively positive in that I believe the tides are turning and they will textualise Destiel properly and stop deleting these kinds of scenes, especially since season 12 has had so many similar scenes go through to the final cut…

The important deleted scenes for me regarding Destiel are:

1. The deleted scene from 10x23 

Cas states clearly that his time on earth has been more important to him than any time in Heaven and Sam and Dean are like family to him.

here’s a link. Basically it’s this:

Source:

http://constiellation.tumblr.com/post/134329938841/10x23-deleted-scene

As always Cas’s scenes that are just too emotionally compromising or hint too deeply at his feelings for Dean (even if Sam is lobbed in there too) are deleted, BUT this in particular has now been addressed in 12x12! So….fingers crossed?!

2. The deleted scene from season 9 

THIS IS MY FAVOURITE, IT IS SO IMPORTANT TO THE WHOLE SHOW, to the whole of the narrative for Cas and Crowley. 

Here’s a link to the video.

This one scene just kills me as it sets up Cas and Crowley’s whole arcs for the whole show and yet it is deleted because, clearly, no homo. As otherwise it is an excellent scene to shed light on two of the core characters of the show and reveals their motivations for their actions, which is what a lot of the fans have struggled with, saying these 2 characters are stale. 

In this scene Cas and Crowley discuss how they ‘dislike’ being human and how it’s so not worth it and why would you want to be human anyway (the underlying feeling being that they’re both lying and there is a reason they would like to be) - and then Dean immediately walks in and they share a glance. This is….. expositional screenwriting 101 ? 

I mean this is a classic - in fact it reminded me so clearly of the opening scene of a classic romantic supernatural love pairing in the cartoon Beauty and the Beast - the narrator says “for… who could love a Beast?” - and it CUTS TO BELLE’s introduction…

And yet they cut this scene. And it means we don’t get a clear narrative reason why Cas and Crowley do what they do and are who they are, and casual viewers who don’t look into things as deeply as all of us are confused and think they’re stale and uninteresting. 

Without this scene only people who really look into the show in huge detail, dorks like me, will know that Cas and Crowley are mirrors of each other and both their arcs up to a point revolve entirely around Dean Humanity Winchester.

Yes. That is what happens when you cut important scenes for a stupid reason, the whole show doesn’t make sense and fans get annoyed. *facepalms*.

There are probably people out there who think Cas still wants to be an Angel pffff because he said “I just wanna be an Angel again“ that one time. Yeah, that one time he thought Dean was dead and there was nothing left for him and he knew being a proper Angel would lessen his emotional pain and give him a purpose to focus on. But then, as soon as he learned Dean was still wandering the Earth he just… hangs around, pining, languishing in the blue bathrobe of despair, hoping to fix him. 

And when he finally does get some grace back (FROM CROWLEY - these two are so interlinked Chuck help me what a great narrative if they actually showed it properly) he doesn’t WANT the grace, Crowley doesn’t really want to give Cas grace either but he does it FOR DEAN, and Cas, he allows Crowley to do it FOR DEAN. This then also reminds us how earlier on when Cas steals his first lot of grace Dean asks Cas if he’s cool about being an Angel again Cas deflects and says he needs it. Not wants it, but needs it to fight.  

WHY does Castiel not want his grace back? WHY might Castiel have learned to love ‘humanity’? WHY might Castiel want to be human?

THIS IS SO IMPORTANT FOR CASTIEL’S ENTIRE STORY.  

*facepalms again*.

3. The deleted scene from 10x14.

Here’s a link. 

This scene is not only is great for it’s own individual reveal - Cas and Crowley jealously pretending they dont care about Dean and perhaps he is the other’s boyfriend, even using the term boyfriend, I mean, guys. Could this be clearer? 

But this also just ties in to the whole end of the episode where Dean hands CAS the first blade instead of returning it to Crowley. HE CHOOSES CAS! THIS IS SO IMPORTANT (and is easily overlooked as it was deleted for *reasons*).

This, in an episode where Cas is clearly narratively paralleled as Dean’s Colette, where Dean is scared of losing himself and in a call-back to the season’s start and call-forward to the season’s ending Cas is desperately trying to save him and stop, to keep his humanity….

So, in conclusion… 

There is a recurring theme of Destiel (and Drowley) - heavy scenes being cut and this is hurting the narrative of the overall show. It’s not that these relationship are written into the show to begin with that is the problem as they are key to so much of the overall story arcs but the fact that they are written in, used extensively as key points in the story while being kept in the subtext and then when there is an opportunity to make it textual to make it make SENSE to the narrative it is so heavily affecting, these scenes are cut.

*FACEPALMS SO HARD INTO MY KEYBOARD*

Why are they hurting their own show by doing this?!

So yeah, it’d be lovely if they actually showed these scenes that explains WHY things are happening to the casual viewer and Destiel shippers weren’t sometimes made to feel like we are grasping at straws. 

Newsflash, it’s like a milkshake bar there are so many straws in this show, everyone involved knows about it and plays on it and CONSISTENTLY WRITES IT INTO THE MAIN NARRATIVE.

Just search Amara on my blog, the whole of season 11 doesn’t make sense without Destiel. If God’s sister herself reveals that Dean represents humanity after the fandom had that meltdown after Metatron’s ‘in love with humanity’ speech, DURING a scene interspersed with Metatron just to remind us ;) If God’s sister has to work through the Dean / Cas longing to reach Dean, uses Cas to manipulate Dean, keeps talking to Dean about love and hiding things, holding back, if Dean calls out to Cas while in Amara’s presence and pretty consistently only cares about Cas during these interactions where Amara is present, even though they themselves are bonded by the mark, one of God’s most powerful creations…. please. 

And season 12 basically is one long Cas-focused parallel so they know what they are doing at this point. I want to trust Dabb but we have been burned before so… tentatively fingers crossed on this one now.

It’s just so freaking stupid to build a gorgeous story and through Chuck knows what, I like to hope it’s not homophobia but at these points I feel like what else can it be, they ruin their own narrative and make the story just flounder, not making a whole lot of sense because  they are not following through on their own narrative and we are therefore MISSING INFORMATION!

We are tired of waiting for this all to make sense.

So I recommend anyone and everyone pay attention to deleted scenes. They are scenes that show that writers have noticed all the other subtext themselves in order to add to it, then thought about, written, acted out, edited and at the last junction been ripped out, and from these scenes it’s clear why, they all share a focal point - canonising or at least heavily clarifying the subtext between Cas and Dean and/or Crowley and Dean.

Because it is there, we are not insane. If it gets so far as to get acted out and left on the cutting room floor then it’s there and there’s a reason it’s been cut.

#deleted scenes #supernatural meta #spn meta #supernatural #destiel #dean winchester #castiel #amara #chuck and amara #asks

[counttotwenty]

Bullet Points: The Tale of Two Sons

Ill Boding Patterns–part 3 (part 1-2 here and here)

Bullet points are encapsulated scene analysis from the top of each act to the bottom. (each act is bookended by a commercial break)

I hope you’ll indulge in me in just one thing before we get started. After yesterday’s bullet points I was barraged (not unexpectedly ) by people upset because they feel I hate Rumple. I assure you that absolutely nothing could be further from the truth. I love Rumple as a character and Robert Carlyle as an actor. My affection for both is what drives my dissatisfaction with the current storyline.

Listen--I say all the time that reasonable minds can disagree. If you love the current storyline then I say great. Enjoy it. I have no problem with that. What I do have a problem with is being labeled a hater when I’m the furthest thing from it when it comes to Rumple. So if you’ll indulge me for a second to clarify my position a little...

I think that for the first five seasons of this show Rumple was as layered and nuanced a character as exists on primetime tv. It was refreshing to see someone caught in the eternal struggle between darkness and light who so unapologetically embraced the darkness. A man who knew himself well enough to say nothing is more important to me than the power. Not even love. I like being feared. I am in no way burdened by my conscience. Happily selfish and unrepentant every step of the way.

And Robert Carlyle’s performance was brilliant at every turn. Whether playing the out there Rumple or the understated Gold the characterization remained flawless and unflinching. It wasn’t always easy to watch but it was always spectacular.

In truth, I have no problem with the whole Gideon storyline changing Rumple. How could it not? Especially considering it was all set in motion by his own actions in agreeing to give up his second born child. And using Robert’s storyline to help illuminate Rumple’s was genius. Two men who made irrevocable decisions about the fate of their children and the effects that had not only on their children but on themselves. Beautiful. So to see Rumple make a complete 180 for the sake of his child, just as Robert did (BOING!) I’m here for it.

Well in truth I may not have wanted a full 180 because I like Rumple a little evil so maybe a 270. But still--I have no problem with the change.

What I do have a big problem with is the total retcon in terms of how and why Rumple embraced the darkness. For 2 reasons.

A. It weakens the canon fabric of the show which to me is more unforgivable than anything else. The basic tenets of the story you’re telling need to be sacrosanct because if they aren’t how can the viewer invest emotionally? Twists and turns are fine but they need to stay within the story you’ve been telling all along. No storyline means anything if the past can be discarded on a moment’s notice to fit the future. And to make such a seminal change only to turn around and use a device as cheap as memory tea to try to mitigate it? Sigh.

B. It cheapens the stellar performance Robert Carlyle has given since day one by removing the complicated side of Rumple/Gold and turning him into a man who had no free will in the decision to fully embrace the darkness and reducing 90% of his motivation to sheer cliche. And he deserves better.

So feel free to disagree with me on the storyline but please do both of us a favor and don’t write it off to me simply not liking the character.

And now back to the bullet points.

1. “You think tea with dear old dad is gonna make everything better?”

Very nice foreshadowing here. This being the second time they focused on the tea/thermos they were certainly telegraphing it was going to play an important role.

2. “How can I trust you with the truth when you don’t trust me?”

This line sets up a really interesting exploration into how trust factors into Rumple’s relationship with each of his sons. The level of trust he places in them. The degree to which that trust ends up being misplaced.

There’s a direct compare/contrast set up between Rumple/Gideon and Rumple/Bae here. Not only are these plotlines informing each other this is a case where the latter is actually influencing the former in significant ways.

3. The scene structure used in this Act is quite interesting as well. The present reflects the past which foreshadows the present. The juxtaposition between father controlling son and so controlling father. Cowardice versus borrowed bravery. This is the kind of stuff that makes people like me squeal with glee.

So why did you have to go and ruin it all, show? WHY?!?!?!

4. The fact that the moment when Rumple trusts Gideon enough to remove the bindings is the moment that kicks things back to a flashback put a lump in my throat. Timing like that is never coincidental and virtually never means anything good.

BOING!!!!!

5. Bae has an unwavering faith that his father can defeat the monster on his own without the help of the dagger. It’s the unchallenged faith of a child in the parent he loves.Rumple trusts Bae enough to willingly hand over the dagger and by extension control of his very being.

So we see in this progression of scenes Rumple showing faith in both of his sons. It’s a tiny bit on the heavy handed side but there’s denying that moving forward these storylines are working together in lockstep.

6. Look it’s the story they’ve decided to tell so like it or not I need to look at it objectively but this is where it all starts to go way off the rails for me.. 

In the past we see Rumple fighting valiantly to avoid embracing the darkness. He’s clearly being buoyed by Bae’s faith in him but there’s no question that he himself has actively decided to eschew the power of the dagger. 

6. “It’s just like when you needed the crutch ... to walk.”

Yes, we actually got that without the house sized anvil being dropped on our heads. The darkness is a crutch. A work around. A shortcut. We get it.

7. “There’s only one way I’m going to be able to do this.”

While Rumple clearly wants to do the right thing he lacks the requisite level of faith in himself. A level of faith that Bae has. So he relinquishes control to his son believing Bae can help him hold off the darkness.

And as a viewer, because we know where he ends up, it’s pretty clear something is going to go very wrong here.

GRRRRRRR

8. And then Bae accepting the dagger which Rumple willingly offered is the jump off back to the present.

We watched the trust dynamic from the last cut play out directly, so clearly the dagger is gonna end up in Gideon’s hands before too long.

BOING!!!!!!

9. The use of Her Handsome Hero here serves a couple of functions. It keeps Belle metaphorically involved in the discussion and it also sets up Gideon’s feelings of fondness for the book, and by extension Belle, which are most likely going to be the key to key disrupting the ill boding patterns of Rumple’s interactions with his sons.

10. “She left the door unlocked on purpose.”

On the surface here it looks as though the point being made here is that Gideon and Rumple were both cowards. Like father like son. We even get a red herring when Gideon verbalizes as much.

But remember what the scene structure, which is always more illustrative, is telling us here.The compare/contrast is between Bae/Gideon and Rumple’s two turns at fatherhood. So don’t let them throw you off with a Gideon/Rumple comparison.

Bae will be faced, in fairly short order, with the choice of whether to act or not.

BOING!!!!!

11. “We can show your mother she was wrong about both of us.”

This is where oh crap alarm bells started going off in my head because again, Gideon places himself and Rumple on the same side of the equation which places Bae on the other side.

He’ll be the one a parent is wrong about.  

They dropped the breadcrumbs pretty close together here and it was clear there was a moment of truth coming for Bae--and his reaction would be more dark than light.

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOING!!!!

12. “One laced with memory potion.”

Rumple’s clearly heartfelt desire to take away his son’s pain, combined with the intertwined nature of the two storylines, and the use of the memory tea is a case of foreshadowing done right--even if a little heavy-handedly.

The reason Rumple believed the tea would work was because it did in the past.

a very sad little boing!

13. Aaaand of course the hug is fake and Gideon ends up with the dagger. Like I said--these two storylines are in lockstep.

The difference here is that Rumple gave the dagger to Bae out of trust and Gideon took it out of lack thereof.

14. “You are going to help me fulfill my destiny whether you want to or not.”

Sigh. I don’t like where this is going at all.

Next up--Bumps in the Road

#ouat meta #bullet points #6.13 ill boding patterns #rumplestiltskin #ret con 101

[trubbull]

A Chance At Happiness // Chapter 7

[[Read on Archive Of Our Own]]

Rating: Explicit Category: F/M Fandom: Game Grumps Relationships: Dan Avidan/You, Dan Avidan & Reader, Suzy Berhow/Arin Hanson, Holly Conrad/Ross O'Donovan Characters: Arin Hanson, Dan Avidan, Suzy Berhow, Ross O'Donovan, Barry Kramer, Brian Wecht, Vernon Shaw, Holly Conrad Additional Tags: Alternate Universe - Demons, Succubi & Incubi, Suicide Attempt, Depression, Anxiety, reader has depression and anxiety and tries to commit suicide, But it turns out okay, this will most definitely eventually include smut, i'll add tags as necessary, Crossdressing, egobang if you squint but it's really just Arin and Dan's regular banter

**No added tags this chapter**

Chapter 7: The Realization

When Y/N left, Arin was seated on the floor in the living room, playing on the Wii U.

The television was muted, and Dan was still dead-to-the-world on the couch, but he had obviously flipped onto his back during the time she had been getting ready for work. She shook her head with amusement at him, and waved to Arin as she left, closing and locking the door behind her. Arin was playing Pokken, and lost track of time between Y/N leaving and Dan waking up. He heard the other demon’s tired, groggy groan from behind, so he paused the game and turned to look at Dan with a smile. “Good morning, sleepyhead.” Arin spoke softly, sing-songy. He glanced at the clock on the wall, then, and realized it was after noon.

“Er, well, good afternoon.” Arin corrected himself with a chuckle.

Dan rubbed at his eyes, quietly groaning as he moved to sit up. “Ar’? What’re you still doing here, I told you Y/N would be irate if—“

“Nah, it was fine. I cooked her breakfast, made a nice impression, she told me I was welcome here.” Arin reached over to the coffee table and nudged the plate of cold eggs and soggy bacon to Dan. “I brought you the stuff she didn’t eat, figured you’d be hungry.” He then swiped his can of Pepsi from the coffee table and drank from it.

Dan looked at the plate and grimaced a bit, “You know I don’t eat meat, dude…”

“Oh, right, sorry. More for me.” Arin swiped the bacon from the plate, shoving them unceremoniously in his mouth before turning back to the television and unpausing his game.

Dan stood up then, grabbing the plate and heading into the kitchen to microwave it. He stopped short of the hardwood floor. “Hey did you at least—“

The pair of fuzzy socks hit Dan in the side of the head, and it made Dan laugh. He slipped them on clumsily, balancing his plate in one hand as he did so. While his plate was in the microwave, warming up, Dan leaned against the doorframe into the kitchen.

“Well, I’m glad she liked you. That just means I can summon you whenever I want.” He chuckled.

Arin grinned, but didn’t tear his eyes from the screen. “You sure you wanna do that? I might show up in a G-string and nipple-tassels next time.”

The mental image made Dan’s face screw up in a combination of disgust and amusement. “Gross, dude.”

Arin shot Dan a brief glance, grinning allthewhile, “And that’s not even the worst thing I’ve shown up wearing. Humans are into weird stuff. Like, this one time—“

“Dude, I’m about to eat, can we not?”

Arin just shrugged then, chuckling. “Speaking of which… Y/N… She’s pretty cute.”

Dan’s amused expression sobered slightly. “I… I mean, yeah, compared to most humans I’ve had the pleasure of running into, she’s definitely… Definitely prettier than most.”

“You should fuck her.” Arin stated, plainly.

If Dan had been drinking something, he would have done a spittake. He sputtered anyway, “Wh-what?! I mean… That’s…”

Arin paused the game, then, and looked at Dan, leaning back on his hands while cross-legged on the floor. “I was eye-ing her up this morning—she caught me doing it, too, hah—but like, she hasn’t been touched nicely in years, dude. I think it would really help her depression issue if she just, I dunno, got laid. I mean, I would know, I do it all the time. Guys and girls summon me and at first they just cry because they didn’t expect it to actually work, but then I’m there. Usually when depressed folks summon me I’m dressed like this, I look comfortable and approachable, familiar. And they just fall into my arms and I make ‘em feel good and afterwards I’ll snuggle ‘em a bit. Give ‘em my card, tell ‘em they can call me up again on a bad night. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don’t. They get better after that. Sometimes it's just cathartic to be touched by hands that aren’t yours, you know? I know you get what I mean, dude.”

Dan nodded slowly, “I mean, yeah, I do, but…” He trailed off, not sure what else to say, especially when something was nagging at him.

“… What did you mean by ‘touched nicely?’ Are you telling me she was…” Dan frowned, his brows knitting together.

Arin frowned, too, bringing a clawed hand up to card back through his hair. “I don’t get the vibe it was non-consensual, but she’s hurting from it, dude. Emotionally, I mean. The last hands that were on her weren’t terribly kind.”

The microwave dinged, and Dan was a little too eager to fetch his plate, needing at least a moment’s respite from this information.

Had this been why she was going to kill herself? He’d saved her, sure, but was he really what she needed? A demon to soothe her demons? No… She deserved better. He wasn’t even that good looking, not like Arin or Suzy. Maybe…

… No, Dan didn’t like the idea of letting one of his friends get to know her like that. Maybe it was selfish of him, but he couldn’t just sit idly by and watch her fall helplessly in love with someone she couldn’t have. Whether it be Arin, Suzy, or any other incubus. There were certainly plenty of others.

… He wasn’t 100% opposed to the idea of being intimate with her. She was definitely easy on the eyes and he had definitely wondered what she looked like undressed, but… She was a human and he’d never been with a human before. That wasn’t his line of work, he wasn’t an Incubus.

But also, he didn’t want her to feel indebted to him. Like, he saved her life, but she didn’t need to thank him by sleeping with him. He didn’t want her to feel like that, she didn’t owe him anything.

… Not really, anyway, but Dan was still trying not to think about that right now.

He finally came back into the living room. Arin had resumed playing his game.

“Took you long enough.” Arin commented as Dan settled down on the floor next to his best friend.

“Sorry.” Dan replied, a bit distant, still deep in thought but eagerly trying to wrench his mind away from the heavy topics and focus on the game Arin was playing.

“Dude, don’t get all in your head about this. Human girls are so easy to please, not like demon girls. Y’know, Demon girls are all ‘bite me harder’ and ‘make me bleed’ and it takes fucking hours to make ‘em cum, it’s like a goddamn chore. But humans? Hoo boy. They’re all feather-light touches and teasing and soft and they cum so easy it makes you wanna go all night long. Sometimes they do, too.” He waggled his eyebrow at Dan out of his peripheral vision.

Dan chewed the slightly stale but warm eggs, and glanced at Arin when he felt the other’s eyes. “I’m not just gonna, one night be like, ‘Hey, you’ve been looking really sad, wanna fuck?’ like, if she’s all depressed about a guy treating her in a way that’s made her depressed enough to try killing herself, I don’t think she needs a demon like me, or any other demon, offering a one-night stand to fix all her problems. I don’t claim to understand women, demon-or-not, but I get the feeling that might just make things worse.”

“Then don’t do it like that. Why don’t you try to get to know her better and, I dunno—“

“Court her?” Dan asked, incredulously.

“You say that like it’s ridiculous. Do you realize who you’re talking to? Suzy was—and is—the best thing to ever fucking happen to me. Maybe Y/N will be the best thing that ever happened to you. Maybe you saving her was some sort of… God’s will.” Arin’s eyes darted quickly around when he spoke the name.

“I mean… The only thing you ever did to lose your wings was to love so generously. That’s what He does. It was only wrong of you because it wasn’t your job to feel that way. Maybe He stepped in and directed all this, you know?”

Dan hadn’t really thought about that. It was a pretty deep observation. “I mean… I guess that could be possible.”

“Dude, it would probably make her super happy if you just treated her decently. Be friends, be more-than-just-friends, whatever happens, but like. Make an emotional connection with her. Make her understand that just because some asshole wasn’t good to her doesn’t mean that she doesn’t deserve better.”

“Yeah… You’re right, man.” Dan nodded sagely, a slight smile on his face. “… You wanna help me cook something for her later? She’ll be back around 3.”

“Dude, yes.”

“She likes peanut-butter-chocolate-chip cookies.”

“I’ll call Suzy, they’ll get along great.”

Notes: Firstly, I want to thank everyone who has been following this story for your patience. I apologize profusely for the month-long hiatus. Anyone who reads my other story, La Vie En Camaieu, would have gotten my message on the last chapter's footnotes. For anyone who doesn't, I'll recap.

Earlier this month, I was kicked out of my home. I was accused of ruining my mother and step-father's marriage, and told they were going to divorce. My mother and siblings and I were all kicked out of our family home of eleven years with nothing but the clothes on our backs. For a few days, we were forced to stay with my biological father, my mother and I sleeping on the floors for a few days.

Things have improved, my mother and stepfather reconciled and my siblings are now at home, but... I cannot go back. I gathered my belongings and left. I've been couch surfing while desperately seeking employment and trying to juggle my education at the same time. I've fallen into a deep pit of depression due to all of this and lost the motivation to write.

I'm in a semi-stable place now, living with family friends. I have a bed to sleep in, wi-fi, and I'm not going hungry. I'm yet to find a job but right now I'm not being charged for rent, so it's not as urgent. But I am still hurting for money, and I will eventually have to find a place of my own.

As well as a writer, I'm also an artist. I'm working on an Art and Writing commissions page that will be posted in the near future on my tumblr. If you don't already follow me, do give me a follow to keep up-to-date on how my life is going as well as the progress on new chapters and immediate chapter updates as well.

Once again, thank you all for your patience and well-wishes. I wrote this chapter just in the last two hours, after having been struck with inspiration while, ironically, eating peanut-butter-chocolate-chip brownies. Perhaps I just need to treat myself more often and writing will come easier.

--Moobaby

#trubbull post #trubbull fics #acah #demon!grumps