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bugsbenefit · 1 year

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okay i'll say it again. i'm personally not a very big fan of the theory that Alice Creel and Karen Wheeler are the same person from a personal perspective. However, looking at the show, i think at this point we should consider it as more of an option because aside from the multiple weird instances about it. i think the most notable is that it's one of the most solid explanations for what Nancy saw in her vision.

Vecna specifically threatening Karen, Holly, and Mike. leaving Ted out. is funny to us from an audience perspective because it allows for the assumption that Nancy just doesn't give enough of a shit about Ted for Vecna to use his death as something shocking.

but this makes very little sense in universe and with the way it was shot:

While Nancy is never shown to be close to Ted it's also clear she doesn't hate him. they're very ambivalent to each other, we rarely even see them in the same scenes. from a character perspective, jumping from this to Nancy not caring if something happened to him is very inconsistent character writing. most people would care if someone in their lives died even if they weren't personally very close. for Nancy to really not care if he died they would require a more negatively afflicted relationship. which they don't have.

the moment is also not played like a joke. the entirety of Nancy's vision serves as foreshadowing to the end of s4 and s5. it's all taken very seriously both by the characters and the audience. Nancy leaving Ted out of her vision is subtle and something we only talk about in hindsight because it's weird Vecna left only him out. causing jokes like "even Vecna says fuck Ted Wheeler" to spring up as an explanation. but the scene isn't shot like a joke and the exclusion of him falls flat. it was just subtle enough to be there and pass by ga's prime focus since no character drew attention to it, or asked afterwards "what about your dad?" "what about my dad?" which would have made it an actual joke and given pay off to this weird list. but none of this happens. Ted is just Missing from the vision and we're moving on. it's not played like something funny to notice, Nancy is crying and everyone is serious.

so. why IS Ted missing from the vision? summing up what we know:

it does not come across like a joke at all. without drawing attention to it the GA misses it, causing the joke to not work. and even more attentive audiences who pick up on it, recognize it's not really a funny haha joke. and while we can try and turn it into something jokey and say it's because Ted is stupid and nobody likes him, that explanation makes much less sense for the characters themselves. Nancy and Ted don't have a bad enough relationship as far as we're shown to justify Nancy suddenly not caring if he died. he's still a person she sees every day, even without a parental bond she would at least have an opinion on him dying.

so if this dialogue doesn't serve the purpose of character development/ exposition or comedy, why is it there?

well like the rest of the vision, it's part of the points that pretty straightforwardly tell us what will happen next season. s5 will have a creature with a gaping mouth, monsters all over Hawkins, and the Wheeler family minus Ted in danger.

Mike being in danger here makes sense since he's already hinted at being a central character in s5. both from a "return to s1" perspective, because of the "love triangle" plot and painting plot that include him, AND the fact that him and Will had a whole scene dedicated to planning Vecna's death as a conclusion to the season. Mike and his relationship with Will and the overall story are being highlighted so him subsequently being in danger because of that is a given. (there's also the whole argument to be made of Mike getting targeted Specifically because of Will as a bargaining tool) still, why Holly and Karen would have that same target on their back is a little bit more unclear as of now.

but the Real question is why Vecna doesn't include Ted when he already lists the whole Wheeler family by name. naming three people and then being too lazy for a fourth is... pointed. again i've made it clear i do believe Nancy would be sad if Ted died. there's also the opposite question to be raised: why does Vecna go to Nancy and show her Karen, Holly, and Mike specifically? there's other people Nancy is close to, arguably even closer with than with Mike for example since the two of them Also have a very minimal bond. Vecna showing her Jonathan dead, or any of the kids, Steve, even Robin by this point. it would hurt her just as bad. if not worse. because Nancy is Not a family oriented character. she doesn't value her family over her friends, the whole blood is thicker than water is bullshit to her and her characterization shows that, she's actively afraid of repeating the suburban nuclear family life her mother chose. Nancy is NOT more scared of her family dying than she is of her friends dying.

so this raises even More questions now as if the one we have isn't out there enough already. into the question pile it goes:

why does Vecna only show her her family and no one else when it would arguably be equally as shocking for her, if not more so in some cases? why is only Ted missing? and honestly why does Vecna even show Nancy the vision? (there were 7 people present so it was a 1/7 chance it would be her. why didn't he go for Steve standing right next to her? he had to pick one of them but given he had 7 options and seemingly no bias towards any of them we can question this choice.)

as of now we can't answer any of these questions, we'll need more insight from s5 to understand what Vecna is trying to get at here. however, this is where the theory comes back in because as of now it's one of the only things that actually Could explain it.

if Karen was actually Alice Creel and somehow survived that night. (there's a Lot to say about this but this i'll get into it on another post) it would mean Henry's attempt at familicide went even worse than originally thought. not only did his father survive but his sister would have lived as well and even gone on to have a family of her own after the fact. Victor tells us that he fears the "demon" will return, kill him for good, even Vecna himself tells Nancy he's interested in paying Victor a visit soon, so by that we can assume Henry is finishing his sloppy family murder that really only killed his mom next season. (and in all honesty, i don't see Victor surviving it, he's got death flags all over him)

but this presents a new possibility. Alice, now having children of her own, means that Henry's original family he wanted to kill is now extended by a nephew and two nieces he didn't have before. which raises the question: why wouldn't he want them dead too? Henry's murders were never about the people he Lived with, it was targeted at his family specifically - it was about the ideals he hated so much and what their superficially perfect happy nuclear family embodied despite being "bad people" on the inside, according to Henry's perception.

so when Henry finally goes back on what he announced to Nancy and kills his family for real next time, who would he classify as family? just Victor and Alice? or Alice's children who are his blood relatives as well?

because "Mom, and Holly... Mike" would be the exact list of Henry's living relatives according to this theory. minus of course Victor (locked in Pennhurst) and Nancy herself (the one receiving the threat).

and this would also finally give us an explanation of why Ted wasn't included in the vision. being a random well-earning man Karen married years ago he has no blood relation to the Creel family and therefore no significant role in a potential familicide. giving us the explanation that it's not Nancy who doesn't care about him dying but actually Vecna, since he would really just be a Random Guy to him.

this theory would all in all go to explain why:

the 1/7 chance of having the vision fell on Nancy.

Vecna then went out of his way to give her his whole tragic backstory in an immersive dia show instead of us seeing it through El's NINA memories

AND why Ted Wheeler is weirdly missing from the threats known family killer Henry Creel makes.

again, i'm personally not a die hard believer of this theory myself, but at this point there's a lot that would make infinitely more sense when placed with the backdrop of this theory. for this scene alone it's the only solid explanation as of now to really give us a reason as to what could be going on here. of course we're still missing the facts s5 will give us but with what we're working with right now? this theory is actually a lot less crack-y than i initially believed.

(ngl i was pretty anti this theory at first. again, not the biggest fan of the "and they're related" trope in general so it's not my full jam. but I have to consider it at this point because there's just so much in canon hinting at it. it'll either actually be what canon goes for or it's supposed to be a deliberate audience misguide and fakeout to leave people guessing for s5 because there's Too Much going on here. this scene is just the tip of the iceberg too, i'm genuinely amazed how much there actually is both in the show as well as narrative wise)

#i wanted to make a silly post on this theory a few days ago and now i kind of ended up in a full google doc i'm still writing #i didn't buy into it At All starting and now i'm looking at scenes like bro are you for real what is THIS???#it's not even just this scene #you can go at it from the angle of looking at the Wheeler family but you can also just look at the Creel massacre flashbacks #whatever the actual canon conclusion to this is. SOMETHING is going on with Alice's death #even if she doesn't end up being Karen Wheeler. there's more to her 100%#because looking at the show. even Henry's retelling of his family murder is off #not only is it shot oddly. it also presents us a completely impossible timeline that contradicts itself within seconds of the event #so even if Alice is just RandomGirlTM s4 wasn't the last we saw of her. Henry himself is Absolutely not a reliable narrator either #i'll make a post on that soon i promise i promise. the blatant timeline fuckery of that night genuinely baffles me tbh #no one has their story straight for that murder incident at this point not even you Henry sorry to tell you #stranger things #stranger things theory #st5 theory #st5 #karen wheeler #nancy wheeler #mike wheeler #alice creel #henry creel #byler #(I've seen so many of us in the tag talk about this topic we're all insane)#creel/wheeler theory

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arabella-s-arts · 2 months

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Scenes/Things in Supernatural that genuinely don't make sense to me if Dean was straight:

The confession booth scene.

Sam just rolling with the fact that Dean's siren is a guy while still thinking sirens infect people through sex.

Dean being flustered by several men: Gunner Lawless, Aaron, Doctor Sexy, etc.

All the parallels between Destiel and other couples. (A big one being "last night on Earth" bc how do you do that accidentally.)

Having all the gay jokes be on Dean instead of Sam.

Paralleling Sam meeting his childhood celebrity crush with Dean meeting Gunner Lawless.

The boner Dean got when Cas cleaned up.

Dean gulping after Cas does an impression from a Western movie.

Charlie, a lesbian, calling Castiel "dreamy."

The way Mary looks at Dean and Cas when they hug.

Dean wondering why everyone assumes he's gay, while Sam not caring.

The logic that Charlie can't flirt with guys because she's only attracted to women, but then having Dean flirt with the guy for her.

Dean seeming disappointed when learning that Aaron's flirting was fake.

The amount of time Dean and Cas spend staring at each other.

Dean canonically having an orgy with Crowley.

A woman saying that she knows when someone's pining for someone else to Dean, just for us to learn that Dean was never in love with Amara.

The set design and script choices that lead to a cross in the background while Dean said "I do." to Cas after he came back to life.

Edit: To the people who say I can't use the siren as an example because the siren is supposed to be his brother, and therefore his siren being a man doesn't work. If you reread that bullet point, then you will realize that I didn't put it down as just simply Dean's siren being a man. I recognize that the siren is supposed to be his brother. It's the fact that Sam still thinks the siren infects people through sex, not knowing that it's actually through saliva when he realizes who the siren is. So when he sees that Dean's siren is a guy, he had to assume they had sex, and he does not seem surprised by this at all.

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