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alwida10 · 10 months

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Ok, I know i shouldn’t let myself be baited into arguments. Hrrnng.

After cooling down for two years searching for exchange and considering alternative points of views, I see how Sylvie can be a compelling character. And even from the beginning I agreed that she would have probably been much more compelling to me if she had gotten more screen time, highlighting her past.

All good.

But sometimes I come across posts that say basically Loki would be better seen as a jealous, petty, dude who just don’t consider anyone but himself, gives a shit for victims of his actions etc. One time someone even gave me a list of his crimes, including genocide, slavery, human trafficking, espionage, torture, betrayal of everyone he ever knew (the guy’s time management skills must be amazing) and some other points I don’t remember anymore, partly because of redundancy.

And I mean, I get how villains can be compelling characters, I do. And yeah, knowing their past can sometimes put things into context, yet it will never justify their actions. (I just watched the dungeons and dragons movie and the red magician is such a cool character! She is beyond redemption and doesn’t have a good hair on her, but yeah, good character design!)

So, if you like Sylvie or Mobius, why (WHY!!) would you want them to be together with such a dick? And a clown, talking from Sylvie’s perspective (and she’s right). Like, don’t you want your fav to be with someone who is nice? Who’s redeemable at the very least? Because someone who attempted to murder their own family without caring the tiniest bit and succeeded killing his mother doesn’t really seem to be a good match for a partner?Such an abusive man who cared only for himself for 1.5 millennia might show a bit of care in the beginning of a relationship, as long the victim isn’t attached properly. But when the victim is emotionally attached? The abuser will simply go back to torturing them. (I recommend the book “why does he do that?” It’s educational and will help you to realize how an healthy relationship looks like. Which seems like an easy thing, but trust me - it isn’t when emotional manipulation takes part). Like, if you really think interpreting Loki like that, I cannot imagine how you think your fav could be happy around them. People can change, but especially narcissism is so hard to overcome it certainly won’t disappear within days. Not after 1.5 millennia of using everyone and everything to their own benefit. That guy is a monster and even if (and that’s a big IF) he should change his behavior his past crimes are unforgivable and the best he could achieve is a heroic sacrifice for the real heroes.

Man, i really prefer giving him the benefit of the doubt, keeping in mind he was abducted as a child, raised by a racist and imperialist and made decisions in emotional turmoil without considering or seeing all the consequences. Do I consider him jealous? Sure. I’m jealous of people who are rich without having done anything for it. Do I consider him petty? No. Because I keep in mind how Goffrey (GoT) would have acted in a similar situation. Do I consider his pain being justified? Yes. Do I think he loved his family? Yeah, because why else would he have spared odin’s life twice and rescued Jane? Do I think he supported Thanos willingly? Just as willingly as gamora and nebula did. Do I think he never did anything wrong? No, attempted genocide is horrible, murdering a ruler of a nation at war is -while not criminal- not a good thing when you want piece without people dying. But sabotaging the coronation (if he really tried to voice his concerns before and wasn’t listened to) was a desperate act of loyalty. And that’s what matters.

#fandom discourse #will probably delete tomorrow #Loki series negativity #Loki series criticism

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bebx · 2 years

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I can understand some of the criticisms Loki stans make about Mobius, but most of the time they are far too black and white and exaggerated. They call him a Nazi and a fascist. And Brainwashing is no excuse for his behaviour (but it is for Loki?). I always fail to understand that.

I find it very naive and kind of cold-hearted because hardly anyone would be able to immediately understand in Mobius' situation that the TVA might not be so good after all. When you get into a system as an adult man with no memories, you have no way to compare your moral values with anything else.

It is rather astonishing that Mobius preserved his kidness and develops doubts in such an environment. That shows exactly what kind of person he actually is. I think in general you can't judge anyone in the TVA. This organization was created by the most powerful man in the universe and it would be strange if it was easy to get out of.

These are still humans who can hardly do anything against a higher power. Calling them Nazis is so out of place because nobody ever asked them if they wanted to do that job. They were FORCED. They lost everthing - personality, memories, families, friends. A normal human life.

Besides, the TVA exists to prevent a war. Everyone believes in the TVA because they are told that with the sacrifices a much greater suffering is prevented. They didn't prune Variants because of fascist ideolgy. They just wanted to survive.

Anyone who thinks that if they were Mobius, they would stand above all this and break free with ease, has no idea how the human psyche works.

Whoever understands and forgives Loki, but condemns Mobius and the TVA in the strongest possible terms, has a double standard. Selective empathy shows that the person's evaluation is not on a rational but on an emotional level. Only then is it possible for the antis Mobius to think that he is the devil himself and that every single breath he takes is used to break and manipulate Loki.

Exactly. The fact Mobius is still able to preserve his kindness, after being brainwashed and being forced to live in an environment where nobody around him ever shows kindness towards anybody, is something I truly admire. It shows how pure his heart really is, that not even the Time-Keepers can take that kindness away from him. And you can see it — his kindness — in the way he treated that boy in the cathedral, even drew something for him, in the way he tried to comfort C-20 and other scared civilians at Roxxcart. So he’s not just kind to Loki. He is kind to everybody.

But the funniest thing is that 90% of those people who said those bullshit about Mobius, about how he’s a “bad guy”, see nothing wrong with Loki’s wrongdoings.

Yes, I am aware Loki was brainwashed by Thanos when he attacked earth and killed people in the first Avengers movie, but that still doesn’t excuse other terrible things he’s done, especially in the first Thor movie. Again, I know how Odin mistreated him, and I know Thor was to blame for some of his own behaviors, too, but that… still doesn’t excuse what Loki did. (And I’m saying this as someone who’s been a fan of Loki for years.)

My point is, it’s funny how some (thankfully, it’s just a minority toxic part of the fandom) Loki stans give Loki excuses for his lies and his crimes. But the second Mobius — who was kidnapped and brainwashed into believing he was doing the right thing by working for the TVA, even though he never actually had a choice — is a little mean to their precious Loki, they call him names.

Like… okay, cool, if you (general you) want to give Loki excuses for the reason why he did what he did (how he was mistreated by Odin and sometimes by Thor, even if it’s unintentional, or how Thanos tortured him), then fine. But you can’t call Mobius a ‘bad guy’ for being a little mean to Loki when Mobius was also kidnapped and brainwashed by the TVA.

Both Loki and Mobius were victims, in a way that Loki was a victim of Thanos (and maybe the TVA too), while Mobius was a victim of the TVA.

But Mobius didn’t “abuse” Loki. That is… so wrong to excuse him of that, especially when he’s the only person in the series who loves, actually loves and cares for Loki.

You can see how loyal Mobius was to the TVA, how he had never doubted them before he met his Loki, but in the end he turned against them for Loki.

Whether you (again, general you) like Mobius or not, he is Loki’s best friend, and he and Loki care about each other. Romantic or platonic, they care deeply about each other, there’s no denying that.

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watcherinwater · 3 years

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So I definitely liked some of it. But once again we barely got any new information. Just an FYI though, it’s been confirmed there’s going to be a season 2 so I guess it’s not too bad that they’re going so slowly. But I still wish they would give us more background. We barely saw anything of Sylvie/Loki’s childhood and we still don’t know what her nexus event was-is it because she knew she was adopted? Because she was born a girl in her prime form?

They just came and took her-and yes don’t be surprised the TVA would hurt a child-look at who they are. Loki is alive and appears to be in some Loki variant dimension (is the black guy a Loki or a Thor? He had a hammer so I can’t really tell). Classic Loki, Kid Loki, Alligator Loki! Love it. I wonder if Mobius is in some Mobius variant dimension? We see him later in the trailer so he’s not dead either.

I kept hearing how this episode was going to be weird and do new stuff but honestly I feel like I waited through the whole thing to get the best scene at the end. Would’ve been nice to see the other Lokis in the beginning. They better all be in the next two episodes for all the screen time!

Can we have one goddamn episode where Loki doesn’t get beat up?!

We don’t have to see him constantly throwing people left and right but can we have one fight that he actually wins?! Where is the whole “we’re going to see his powers in a new way?” Dude can stop a building but he hardly ever even tries to fight back?! After growing up in Asgard? And he gets hurt that easily? Can be thrown by a human? This is the guy who was able to handle Captain America, who even held his own with Thor for a while; who fucking survived the Hulk and got back up? Who “packed a wallop”? You’re telling me a punch from memory Sif hurts him that much? What the hell is wrong with this? I keep waiting for BAMF Loki with at least some new powers and I’m tired of hearing “Oh just wait for the next episode”. And don’t write me and give me excuses-this part-which is my main beef with the show-is basically just bad writing. I heard the head writer never watched any of the previous Loki movies before making the series. I thought that was a joke, but now I’m not so sure.

Btw memory Sif, instead of screaming about what he did to you, wait until he’s asleep and cut off one side of the hair on his head. Don’t get mad-get even. That’s actually the best approach with someone like Loki. Many pranksters-even when they go too far-have a weird way of respecting people who stand up to them using their own methods.

While Loki definitely has some narcissistic traits, (and it looks like it’s going to get turned up to 11 if they go with Sylki 🤔) I wouldn’t say he’s an entire narcissist or that that defines him. Hello-look at where he grew up. Asgard is literally a narcissistic planet built on lies and a racial superiority complex. Royalty especially is going to be that way. Funny how Loki is usually the only one held accountable for Asgard’s sins.

I’ve always seen him more as a borderline with passive aggressive traits. One of those people who act superior because they’ve had too in the environment they’ve grown up in, been indoctrinated into it-and on some level believe it- but on another level hate themselves and try to cover it up with more grandstanding. His pranks were ways of passively-aggressively acting out when he couldn’t (or wouldn’t) act out in other ways. Emotionally neglected kids often do stupid and sometimes mean shit for attention because even bad attention is better than none. Loki at first hated the idea of other Lokis too and wanted to be the only one. They tried this narcissist stuff on Tony Stark too and while he definitely had some traits he wasn’t full blown either. And look how that turned out-Tony helped save the universe.

B-15 finding her memories and conscience because of Sylvie. She seems like she used to be a nice person and not the sadistic cop she came off as before. I’m guessing the TVA brainwashes it’s cops to be mean and aggressive. Ugh. Renslayer knows everybody’s a variant and she’s covering it up. It would seem she’s a variant herself because she used to be a time cop. Why cover it up? What does she know? She seems very conflicted-especially toward Mobius. It really hurt her to vaporize him. I’m thinking she’s in love with him. Mobislayer? I’m very happy Mobius is freeing himself and helping and I know we will see him again; but I have some serious issues with some of the stuff he did in this episode.

The time keepers being fake doesn’t surprise me. But who is really running the show? Will we find out next week? At the rate they’re going I’m not so sure-but at least we’re getting a season 2.

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musclesandhammering · 3 years

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Every Single Issue I Have With S*lki (It’s Not Just The Selfcest)

Here goes. I threatened to post this a few days ago and never did, but I just saw a s*lki stan Twitter account claim that Loki caring about Sylvie more than the whole multiverse was a Good And Romantic thing and it pushed me over the fucking edge, so now you all have to read this. I’ve divided it into categories cause there’s just THAT much.

OOC Bullshit

• First and foremost, no amount of mental gymnastics you do will ever make me believe that this specific Loki- the one that just invaded New York, that just came off a year of Thanos Torture, that just got done being influenced by the sceptre, that was literally in the middle of a crisis already, and then on top of that went through all the trauma of Ep 1- would even be worried about a romantic relationship. That would be the furthest thing from his mind. Go back and watch how he acted in Avengers- you think that guy would abandon his previous mission to become a snivelling simp for a girl he’d just met 3 days prior? Yeah, there’s no universe in which that makes sense.

• “It’s very in character for Loki to fall in love with himself lololol-“ NO, it’s literally not. Out of all the characters in the mcu, I don’t think I can think of anyone that genuinely hates themselves more than Loki. He even referred to all his other male variants as “monsters” and said meeting them was “a nightmare” in this series. He’s got so much self-loathing, plus the fact that he genuinely thinks himself to be an evil backstabbing scourge- so there’s no evidence at all suggesting that he would ever develop a fondness for, or even be inclined to trust, another version of himself, after only knowing them for 3 days.

• Building on that, the whole concept of Loki falling in love with a version of himself just feeds into the annoying ass misconception that he’s a narcissist. No matter which way you stack it, he’s not. If you’re referring to NPD, he doesn’t fit the criteria, and if you’re saying “narcissist” just as a slang term meaning “selfish and arrogant”, that still doesn’t accurately describe him. But when creators like Waldron and Herron do things like having him fall in love with himself, it makes it so much easier for casual viewers to think that he is.

Shitty LGBT Rep

• It’s kinda sus that Loki’s are allegedly genderfluid and yet the only female-presenting variant we see (and apparently the only female-presenting variant there is, cause the male Loki’s all seemed unfamiliar with the concept) is treated as some kind of mind-bogglingly special paradox. Also very sus that, out of all the Loki variants, the one our Loki falls in love with just so happens to be the only female one. What a coincidence.

• The fact that the creators of the show went around bragging about Loki’s bisexuality and Marvel purposefully (lbr) allowed stories about Loki possibly having a male love interest to circulate, specifically enticing queer viewers to watch the show (you know, the definition of queerbaiting), and then instead of having a male love interest (Loki was the first queer main character, so it was the perfect opportunity) they gave us *gestures to this dumpster fire* this… it’s just a middle finger to LGBT fans. The fact that they would rather have this relationship with all its myriad of problems than have a gay relationship is just……. Very telling.

• While him being with a woman obviously doesn’t refute his bisexuality, the fact that they showed/talked about him being interested in 3 different women (flight attendant, Sylvie, Sif) and never even hinted at him being attracted to a man, definitely makes it seem like they were trying to cover up his bisexuality to smooth things over with the more homophobic viewers. You know? It’s like “I know you’re pissed that we sorta confirmed Loki as bi, so we promise we’ll never mention it again! Or even hint at it! As a matter of fact, we’ll give him lots of female lovies and make him seem as straight as possible! That’ll take your mind off of that horrible crumb of queer rep, right? Please please please keep giving us your money!!!”

• Aside from all the other issues, at its core, the biggest reason why I think I’m so irritated with s*lki is that it took one of the most interesting, complex, and diverse characters in cinema atm and squished him into a tired ass unnecessary heteronormative subplot…. Like literally every. single. other. protagonist. ever. Loki is such a unique character, and it’s so so so incredibly disappointing that they stuck him into that same boring cookie cutter romance that happens to every other character in every other movie I’ve ever seen. It’s a disservice, and it’s honestly just not compelling or entertaining at all.

Thematic Issues Galore

• His arc didn’t need a romance. With anyone. It was unnecessary and it didn’t make sense plot-wise. In fact, one of the reasons he was my fav prior to this was because he was the only big-name mcu character whose story wasn’t muddied-up by a romance that didn’t need to be there. So much for that.

• He wasn’t emotionally ready for a romantic relationship with anyone. Hell, just a genuine friendship would’ve been pushing it for him at this point. He was in such a bad state that any relationship he got into would’ve been toxic and unhealthy for both him and the other person, and it doesn’t make sense why the writers would want to put him in one when there were so many cons and essentially no pros (other than “Uwu aren’t they cute together”).

• Sylvie’s character in general was unnecessary and Loki’s character was robbed just by her being there. The whole show became about her post-Ep 2. They spent most of the time giving her backstory, building her up, telling us how awesome she is, trying to convince us to like her, etc when what they really needed to be doing was building Loki up- cause I gotta say, if I had to describe TVA!Loki in a few words, they would be Flat, Boring, and Weak.

• The romance overtakes the plot. They spend time portraying their supposed connection that could’ve been spent adding depth and complexity to literally any of the characters. They make the big Nexus Event them giving each other googly eyes on Lamentis when it could’ve been so many other way more profound things that speak to the fundamental nature of Loki’s. They have the climax of the finale be “oh no she betrayed him to kill He Who Remains” when it could’ve been something way more compelling (Loki having a moral crisis over whether or not to kill HWR, Loki contemplating the state of the multiverse and weighing the pros and cons of freedom vs order, Loki looking into some What If situations and getting emotional about what could’ve been regarding his family, Loki realising the gravity of HWR’s offer and finally coming to terms with how important he is to the universal cycle, etc etc). The entire plot suffered in favour of a romance that half of us didn’t even want.

• It essentially reduced all of Loki’s potential character growth down to “He did it for his crush.” He seemed to at least have some motivations of his own in Ep 1-2 (feeble as they were) but after Sylvie showed up in Ep 3, literally every action he took was just him being a simp for her. Why did he lie in the interrogation? To try to protect Sylvie. Why did he fight the minutemen and Timekeepers? To survive kinda, but mostly cause it was important to Sylvie. Why did he get pruned? Cause he got distracted trying to confess his crush to Sylvie. Why did he try to get out of The Void? Cause he thought Sylvie needed him. Why did he stay in The Void? Cause Sylvie was staying. Why did he try to enchant Alioth? Cause Sylvie told him to. Why did the multiverse get cracked open, leading to an infinite number of Kangs waging war on all of existence? Cause Loki didn’t wanna hurt Sylvie in their fight at the Citadel and then get distracted by her kissing him. It’s uninteresting and honestly pretty embarrassing.

• Throughout their “relationship arc” the writers do their absolute damndest to convince us that we should like Sylvie more than Loki. And you know what? It’s the most hypocritical shit I’ve ever seen. They preach and preach about how Sylvie’s life has been so difficult/we should feel bad for her/she had it so bad/poor poor sylvie/she had it SO much worse than pampered prince Loki…. But then they never even touch on any of Loki’s trauma of hardships (the ones that have been ignored for literally 3 movies now). They frame Sylvie as a good person and a Freedom Fighter after she spent literal decades/centuries mass-murdering brainwashed TVA agents and showing exactly zero remorse for it….. but then they make it their mission to constantly remind us that Loki is a terrible person and constantly put him in situations where he’s forced to acknowledge his wrongdoings/show remorse/admit to how “evil” he is for being a mass murderer for like 2 years. They show him on-screen having a wider range of powers than her, and perpetuate his whole shtick of being a “master manipulator” or whatever….. But then they make Sylvie “the brawn” more competent, intelligent, and physically capable than him. Tell me how it’s a good thing for a ship to be so narratively biased toward one character.

Missed Opportunities

• If they absolutely had to have a romance subplot, then they could’ve paired Loki with one of the characters that have already been established OR one of the characters that were a big part of the whole TVA storyline anyway. It would’ve been so interesting if they’d revealed that Loki had a history with some of the players from previous films (Sif and Fandral both come to mind). It also would’ve been really interesting if they’d given Loki a love interest that actually had some allegiance to the TVA as a whole (Mobius maybe, but not necessarily. It also could’ve been Renslayer or B-15). Hell, imo it would’ve been cool if they’d followed through with that “See you again someday” line that he said to the flight attendant in Ep 1. ALL of these characters have way more chemistry with him than Sylvie, and they were also already relevant to the plot without wasting half the show to give background info on them.

• If they absolutely had to have a hetero-presenting love story involving an enchantress-type figure, then there’s a whole Enchantress (Amora) that was actually Loki’s love interest in the comics. Plus, fans have been screaming for Amora to appear in the mcu for years. Plus, Tom literally pitched an Amora/Loki storyline way back in 2012-13. Also, Lorelei (another enchantress) is also one of Loki’s love interests in the comics, and she already exists in the mcu (she was on Agents of SHIELD). There were several different established characters for them to choose from. Creating a whole knew amalgamation of a character and going with the “she’s a Loki variant” storyline was just completely unnecessary and made no sense.

• They completely robbed us of a Chaos Twins dynamic. Had they handled Sylvie better and not forced her and Loki to smooch, the two of them could’ve had a really really complex and interesting sibling relationship. Loki could’ve stepped into Thor’s shoes and sort of used that new role to gain some self importance, and Sylvie could’ve finally had somebody to look out for her/teach her magic/be there for her. It would’ve been very aesthetically pleasing, the vibes would’ve been out of this world, it would’ve been way more profound than this bs, and frankly it would’ve been much more entertaining to watch.

• Loki’s relationship (read: obsession) with Sylvie completely overshadows all Loki’s other relationships in the show. Loki and Mobius were literally the focal point of the series in Ep 1-2, but after Sylvie showed up in Ep 3, they barely had any interactions with each other, and Mobius pretty much faded to the background entirely. Loki had the beginnings of a pretty interesting antagonistic relationship with Renslayer (with her wanting him pruned, then arguing with Mobius that he couldn’t be trusted), but after Sylvie showed up the dynamic shifted to focus on the history between her and Ravonna. Loki and B-15 started off very badly and openly disliked each other throughout Ep 1-2, and then in the end of Ep 2, Loki showed a little bit of concern for her when she was possessed, hinting that they might be inching toward a reconciliation- especially considering how obvious it was that Loki was gonna uncover the TVA’s sins eventually. There was so much potential for him to be the one to give her her memories back and convince her to change sides, but no, of course that honor went to Sylvie. In fact, after Sylvie showed up, Loki and B-15 never even spoke to each other again.

Various S*lki Fails

• If they were trying to convince us that this affection was mutual, they completely failed. There’s nothing I’ve seen that even hints at Sylvie feeling the same way about Loki that he does about her. At most, I’d say she has a slight endearment to him. She finds him likeable and she’s grudgingly fond of him, but she definitely isn’t in love with the guy. Maybe she thinks he’s cute and hopes that he gets out of this mess alright, but her mission obviously comes before him- whereas, it’s been confirmed multiple times that Loki cares about her above anything else. She doesn’t trust him, she looks at him like he’s an incompetent fool half the time, she shows little to no reaction during most of his confession moments, and she kissed him as a means to distract him so that she could get him out of her way. Look, all I’m saying is, when you get into a relationship where one of you is way more invested than the other, it never ends well.

• This goes without saying for a lot of us, but the selfcest is just straight up odd and cringey. If you’re cool with that sort of thing, fine! People can ship what they want! But don’t pretend it’s not at least a little bit uncomfortable. Yes, I know they’re not technically siblings so it’s not technically incest, and they’re also not technically the exact same person, but they’re similar enough that it makes things weird. And yes I know selfcest can’t happen in real life, so there’s no way to judge it morally, but neither can most of the other stuff that happens in these shows/movies (the Snap, Loki destroying jotunheim, superhero with powers being held accountable, mind control) and yet we still find ways to judge their morality, because they all mirror real-world events. (The snap= genocide; Loki destroying Jotunheim= bombing other countries; superhero accountability= weapons accountability; mind control= grooming and coercion). And lbr the closest real-world mirror to two versions of the same person (who may or may not share DNA, family, backgrounds, physical and emotion characteristics) being romantically involved with one another is incest. And you can be ok with that if you want- that’s your prerogative- but don’t get pissy just cause a lot of us are squicked out by it.

• The whole mirror metaphor (learning self love via each other) thing just fell completely flat. First of all, having Loki learn to love himself by looking at someone who mirrors him did not, in any way shape or form, require them to be romantically involved. But they were. Of course. Secondly, the creators have contradicted themselves so many times on whether Loki and Sylvie are the same or not, that it doesn’t even really register to the viewer that the mirroring thing was what they were going for. Finally, Loki and Sylvie are shown to have so little in common- and to have only the most bare minimum of similarities personality-wise- that it doesn’t even make sense that Loki would “learn to love himself through loving her”. Like? They’re nothing alike. So how would he make the connection that he himself is actually pretty cool, based on her alone? There’s virtually nothing in her that reflects him.

• I know the objective of the entire show was to convince us of how awesome and unique Sylvie is, but honestly her relationship with Loki just did the opposite. A hallmark of a Mary Sue is having her constantly upstage the male lead, and then having him instantly fall madly in love with her anyway. And that’s.. exactly what happened here. Everything they’re doing to try to force her character to be more stan-able is really just forcing her to look more like their self-insert OC. Which is exactly what she is. It would’ve been so much more satisfying if she didn’t have to try so hard to look cool, if they didn’t have to try so hard to make her backstory tear-inducing, if they didn’t have to turn our protagonist into a snivelling simp just to prove how incredible she supposedly is. Very much #GirlBoss energy and we all know how performative and cheap that is.

• The entire thing was too rushed, there was too little build-up, and it was nowhere near believable. As stated above, it’s ridiculously unlikely that Loki would canonically even be interested in Sylvie, and this show did nothing to explain why he was. He just suddenly was. There was nothing they showed us as viewers that would justify a guy as closed-off and preoccupied as Loki falling head-over-heels for a girl he just met. Their was no explanation, no big revelation, no reasoning, it just… kinda happened. And I’m also severely skeptical of any love story that has the characters go in this deep after only 3 45-minute episodes of exposition.

I’m sure there’s other stuff, so if anyone thinks of anything, let me know and I’ll be more than happy to add it. Tagging @janetsnakehole02 @raifenlf @natures-marvel and @brightredsunset800 for expressing interest. This is all your faults.

#antisylki #loki meta #kinda #loki series critical #loki series negativity #anti loki x sylvie #anti loki series #anti sylvie #frosty bby #loki deserved better #I don’t even like TVA!Loki tho so I guess it doesn’t matter with him lmao #tva loki #loki laufeyson

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shine-of-aldhani · 3 years

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This post is going to be fandom-critical and Loki series-appreciative, so get out and block/unfollow/whatever while you can if that's not your cup of tea.

There is a trend in many fandoms of characters who are in opposition to the hero (villains, antiheroes etc) that is critical of the "redemption through death" scenario. The latest that comes to mind is Star Wars, but there are countless examples. The typical in-story narrative is that the villain had committed too many crimes and there is no place for him in the new world where the heroes won, so he's killed off - usually not by heroes but by tragic circumstances that allow him some positive light before the end (Loki in Thor2, Ben Solo in SW). Fans of the character argue that a fully realised, slow redemption would be an awesome storyline, and that it'd be both interesting and refreshing to look at the life post wrongdoing.

So far, no mainstream media has ever done a fully realised, psychologically grounded redemption storyline. Hollywood go-to idea to rehabilitate the villain is to make the villain useful to the heroes and ultimately just "forget" about the initial transgression. The initial bad deed is never looked back on, addressed or analysed except maybe as a funny oneliner. Because addressing shit is hard... And also because, as Loki series has shown us, the fandom doesn't really want to see the true psychologically grounded redemption storyline.

For the Loki series is exactly this: the first time a character must face uncomfortable truths about themselves, to better themselves. This is a process that isn't nice. It's a beatdown after a beatdown. It's humiliating, soul-destroying, there is much kneeling and grovelling and unflattering names. The character isn't shown as pretty and composed, he isn't allowed to wear nice clothes that give him a feeling of power. He feels useless, powerless and messes up a lot, for his self esteem is gone. He doesn't strut around showing off magic feats and yes, almost everyone around him is shown in better light. Because that's what a true redemption storyline is like. It's a deconstruction of the ego. Eventually, it will lead to a stronger and better sense of self, but first we must crawl on the floor. And the fans, who usually overidentify with the character and his background, just cannot take seeing him, and by extension themselves, in that light.

So what does the fandom do?

1) Insist that Loki does not need a redemption storyline. Because he was tortured by Thanos (this is fanon), because he was influenced by scepter (this is still mostly fanon but has a bit more substance), because he was emotionally abused by Odin (this is almost canon). Now before you crucify me - these are my favourite fanons, my go-to fanfiction, I adore them all. But. There is absolutely nothing incorrect or malicious with the Loki series going "You know what? Loki still carved out that eyeball, and I am not going to sit here and "address" the fact that Odin emotionally neglected him, because that's already been shown and is in the past. I am going to postulate that Loki, deep in his core, is ashamed of himself for his deeds, and that bringing up Odin isn't going to solve that shame, and explore how Loki can move forward from there. The story isn't not going to be about Odin or Thanos, who are both gone and dead, it's going to be about Loki -who is the one who gets to live with the consequences."

2) Insist that the series hates Loki and was written specifically to humiliate him. This ties back to my thesis that the fandom simply does not want to see what a true psychological work of a redemption storyline looks like, for the ego beatdown is the essential part of it. This is how the story of Ben Solo would have had to look like, had he survived Star Wars. This is how Thor 2 would have looked like, had we been following Loki and not Thor: Loki being chained by the same soldiers he commanded, being stripped of his armour, being led down the rainbow bridge and into the palace. In that movie, it would have been worse because he had personal history with all these people. In the series he gets TVA's indifferent approach, which should incidentally be easier to swallow.

3) Insist that Loki is not the protagonist of his own series. Apart from this not making an ounce of sense, this reading comes from the idea that only physical deeds are valid storytelling material. Sylvie is stronger than Loki, hence she's the protagonist. Mobius is in the position of power, hence he is more important than Loki. All the while Loki is out there, doing enormous self-work, changing by the hour and showcasing more stable coping techniques. But he's not glamorous while doing it and he's kneeling a lot, so it cannot be that the writers actually like him and wish him to do well in the long run.

4) Insist that the new Loki is OOC and give him a plain, insulting new nickname to differentiate him from the beloved and cool old Loki. The one who liberated eyeballs while clad in impeccable clothes because he was terrified of Thanos. Or the one whose non-existent coping mechanisms almost made him kill his own beloved brother in despair. The one who had plans upon plans and was always so ready for betrayal that he had no friends on his own. The one who would surely glamour awesome clothes onto himself to avoid signalling any weakness. The one who was incredibly high strung and could never allow any weakness. You guys want that Loki back? Ok, that's fair. That guy was deeply damaged, and very interesting to watch. But then, a story that takes these aspects from him (and make no mistake, all of them are maladaptive and trauma induced - all -of - them) isn't hating on Loki, or making him dumb, or exists to hurt you personally. It allows him to overcome his internal hurdles, lower his defences and eventually arrive to a better place.

So here I rest my thesis: actual well written redemption stories, of which Loki is the frigging first (and how groundbreaking is that) aren't really wanted by the fandom. Most fans would rather whitewash or cocoon themselves in the trauma aspect, leaving the actual responsibility and consequences out of it. Which is fine as a comping mechanism, fiction is escapism after all, you're all perfectly valid... But there should at least be enough self-awareness to differentiate between a good story that's uncomfortable/too heavy for you and a bad story with evil writers who either have no idea about Loki or specifically want to punish his fans.

The Loki series isn't the latter. It might not be the fantasy escapism most would have preferred, but it has a very specific and respectable goal and it's going about it in a grounded way which is - actually - fully respecting of Loki as a person. I swear that the series sees him as more capable of doing the work he needs to do than his own fans.

#loki series #meta #loki #fandom criticism

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inglorious-purpose · 3 years

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Loki and trauma

One major shortcoming of the Loki show is the framing of his motivations and personality. In episode 1, Mobius asks Loki “why do you do what you do?” and Loki admits that he hurts people because he sees himself as weak, and thinks that violence is the only way he can attain power. Although Mobius seems to see Loki’s potential for goodness, at various points in the series Loki is presented as an arrogant, spoiled princeling who has betrayed his loved ones because of his narcissistic self-absorption. He’s reduced to little more than a one-dimensional, power-hungry villain (albeit with a bit more self-awareness than your average bad guy).

However, those of us who’ve watched the 2011 Thor movie way too many times know that Loki is far more nuanced; his villainy comes from a place of self-loathing and family trauma. Kenneth Branagh, Tom Hiddleston, and the writing team for Thor1 created a compelling, sympathy-inducing origin story for Loki, which is largely ignored in the Disney+ show. In Thor1, before he learns of his Jotun heritage Loki is self-effacing and even meek, unable to stand up to either Thor (”know your place, brother!”) or Odin (”Eeeaarghh!!”). (If anyone in that family is a narcissist, it’s Odin ... but that’s a subject for another post.)

Loki feels like an outsider in his own family, and when his adoption comes to light, he discovers to his horror that his otherness is quite literal. Many fans sympathize with Loki precisely because his trauma stems from the perception that he’s an outcast. Those of use who struggle to fit in with our family, our social group, or society in general -- whether due to LGBT+ issues, a toxic or abusive parent or sibling, or cultural/political differences -- understand Loki’s brokenness in a way that is difficult, if not impossible, for people who have never experienced this sort of agony.

Loki’s treachery and penchant for betrayal is essentially a bad coping mechanism on steroids. In the Loki series, Mobius’ so-called “therapy” session forces Loki to take a hard look at himself -- which is a necessary first step on his path to heroism -- but never addresses the root cause of his problems. In order to become the best version of himself, Loki must face the self-hatred that underlies his insecurities, come to terms with his past, and figure out who he wants to be going forward. While the Loki series skirts close to this -- Loki comes to admire Sylvie, who is ostensibly another variant of himself -- the message stumbles due to the romantic undertones (romantic love is a very different beast than self-love; the metaphor simply doesn’t work) and problematic framing (Mobius calls their relationship “sick and twisted”; Sylvie mostly treats Loki with contempt and yeets him through a time door when he no longer serves her needs). By the end of the finale, Loki has become the voice of reason against Sylvie’s self-centered revenge quest, but his own pain and trauma haven’t been dealt with.

By glossing over the tragic circumstances of Loki’s fall from grace and depicting him simply as a selfish brat, the show’s creators discarded the very things that make Loki such a beloved and relatable character. Instead of truly delving into his psyche and allowing him the compassion to heal, the show punches down hard -- sometimes literally. His love interest barely returns his affection before finally betraying him; his one “friend” vacillates between avuncular and sinister in the first four episodes and never apologizes for being a dick. Aside from a few tender moments, Loki is more often than not bullied, humiliated, and scoffed at. At the end of it all, Loki may have made some progress toward feeling like less of an outcast, but his connections with others seem tenuous at best.

Perhaps the gravest error committed by Loki’s family in Thor1 (and the following films, for that matter) was their total disregard for Loki’s mental welfare. He was just expected to roll with the whole adoption thing, be cool with Odin’s favored treatment of Thor, and keep a stiff upper lip when Thor’s friends gave him the side-eye for sitting on the throne (which Frigga actually told him to do, and deleting that scene was some bullshit). Yet in his own show, Loki’s well-being is once again neglected as he endures his “character growth,” whether that be kneeling and begging Sif for mercy, or showing an enormous capacity for forgiveness when Mobius finally lets him out of the torture time loop chamber. (Wow, someone stopped trying to actively hurt him! New friend opportunity!) (To be fair, Sylvie does ask at one point if he’s ok, but a few minutes later she watches with no visible concern as he’s pruned by Renslayer in the Time Keepers’ chamber. Does she really care? Meh.)

Loki’s tribulations are played for laughs, which works (and I’m using the term “works” very loosely) only if we ignore his prior trauma. Casual MCU fans may find this acceptable. However, those of us who identify with Loki’s tragic backstory are more apt to find these scenes truly disturbing.

#loki #loki show #loki series #loki meta #thor1 #tom hiddleston #kenneth branagh #bless you kenneth branagh #mobius #sylvie #MCU #marvel #loki series critical #loki series criticism #hey if you liked the show more power to you #i'm not judging you #just writing my own opinions on my own blog #you do you

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valkyrieandstrangeridingaragorn · 2 years

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Here's the thing for all the double standards the MCU has Loki still did bad things and I think a good story would have had him finally fully admit that and stopped deflecting on others. That's what Loki needed to grow. Not learning to love someone else and not saying he's a terrible person. Loki knows he did wrong you can see it on his face and if he stopped using others misdeeds or his sad backstory to try to justify himself that would be development

The LOKI series doesn't even seem to actually care about his actions as it does just calling Loki a bad person. That keep punching down and telling him to shut up but they only talk about Coulson death and blame him for a death that's not even his fault. I think he canonical killed over 200 people in the Avengers but they basically NPC as far as the show cares.

How about instead of asking "Do you enjoy hurting people?" The question was "What gives you the right to hurt people."

The thing is taking responsibility and being held accountable are not what the writers think they are. They think if they grab a villain and punish him unashamedly to the point of him hating himself then that's enough pain and suffering and so healing and growth come right after, but that's religion (christianity to be more precise) not real life.

If you want your character to take responsibility you have to make them face what they did. Funnily enough that would be the first part of Mobius' session with Loki, the very beginning where he's showing him footage of Germany and NYC - because however painful it is for Loki to watch that he did it, he has to look at it, he has to face it.

What Mobius should have done afterwards is two things:

Have a chat with Loki in which he can express himself, what he thought at the time, why he did it, followed by not a single excuse or justification, what he did was wrong, full stop. Then,

Address the fact that the Mind Stone had been influencing him (and finally confirm to the audience just how much of an influence the Stone had on him) and acknowledge the torture Thanos had put him through.

Now this is the part where many fans claim we're coddling him but that's not true. Acknowledging the context of his actions is not excusing him, it's explaining him. If you want your character to see that what they have done is wrong how the hell are they going to do that if they don't understand everything about the actions they took? They can't!

You can't have the first without the second. You can't tell him "you're enjoying it" and "you took that guy's eye!" and "you lose a lot!" then ignore the situation he was in, the mental state he was in... what is he learning at that point? What do you truly want, for him to hate himself or for him to understand himself? Those two are very different things.

A villain doesn't take responsibility the moment he starts hating himself. And he's not held accountable just because you choose to throw him into a time loop where he will be humiliated and beaten repeatedly until he ends up kneeling on the floor and calling himself a narcissist.

They didn't need to break him down to get to the point where he's admitting he doesn't enjoy hurting people. The very moment he says that he should have been asked "so you admit you've been hurting people? Cool, let's move on from there" and then they should have gone through his file addressing everything, from the bad stuff to the good stuff. That's another thing they did wrong, they only mentioned the bad and ignored the good. Again, that's not therapy, that's punishment - no responsibility and no accountability whatsoever.

I too would have wanted to watch a session where Loki admits the bad things he has done, it would have been great for his character, it would have left the haters without any ammunition, and if that had been followed by an explanation of where he comes from, why he acts the way he does, what bad habits he has taken up along the way, and how much he wants to just be himself and stop thirsting for external validation that would have made me very happy. But that's asking too much.

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otterskin · 3 years

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Dumb Details From the Loki Trailer I noticed but then got too serious about

First - apparently it’s not a trailer, so I guess we’ll get ‘Trailer 1′ later? ‘Exclusive Clip’ hardly seems accurate, but hey, I’m not Disney’s marketing division. I wouldn’t live in a shoebox if I was.

Dumb detail no. 1:

Owen Wilson’s jacket is...weird. Look closely.

And another shot:

Yeah...his jacket has a ‘reversed collar’. It’s a cut-out rather than cloth folding on top. Huh. What a strange design choice. What could it mean?

I’ve no idea, but that I watched the trailer enough times to notice this should concern you.

Detail No. 2

In this scene, we see what we can presume to be President Loki’s ‘Throne’. Notice the candy-canes. This is a Santa Claus throne, presumably from some mall Santa. This whole place might be in a mall, judging by the stuff in it.

But the Loki in this shot is not President Loki. Notice that he’s wearing brown pants, a thin brown tie, and the beige shirt he’s seen wearing in other parts of the trailer after he's apparently joined the TVA. President Loki wears black pants, a green vest and a wide green tie with a golden clip that resembles Loki’s little chevron he always has (more on that later).

So it would seem that Loki might meet President Loki here. President Loki might even be addressing him at the end of the trailer. It’s possible that his minions turn on him because there’s two Lokis and they don’t know which is the ‘imposter’.

Speaking of, there’s a minion with bicycle handlebars grafted to a football helmet here, likely meant to resemble Loki. I dig it. There’s also cans of food scattered among the rubbish here. Makes sense that food production is non-existent since everyone has resorted to wearing license plates and spoons. Love how tattered the whole aesthetic is.

This reminds me of the opening Michael Waldron’s script ‘Worst Guy of All Time’, which featured a similar post-apocalyptic setting after the ‘worst guy’ ruins everything and makes himself king of the ashes. That’s likely what’s happened here, but I hope that Loki isn’t anything like Logan Paul, who was the inspiration for that title character.

Ah, the mysterious female character watching a meteor shower WAY TOO CLOSE UP. But my eyes are drawn to one thing...

What is that oblong object with a shiny handle? Could it be...

A sword? I do love swords. Did you know there’s a bunch of pictures of me in the stock photos for ‘Fencing?’ That’s my cred for loving swords.

I suspect that this female character will be an amalgamation of Amora (shudder) and Sylvie and an alternate Loki of some kind. This sword is currently in her possession, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it or another timeline version of it becomes the Loki Show’s Loki′s weapon.

Loki has lacked a ‘weapon of his own’ in the MCU for quite some time. I mean, yes, he has his little knives, but they are many and disposable and something he chose for himself, rather than the two legendary weapons wielded by Odin and Thor, Gungnir and Mjolnir. In fact, throughout his appearances, Loki has seemed to want such a thing of his own - he briefly had Gungnir, and then the Gungnir-like scepter, and even tried to lift Mjolnir.

One might ask why Odin would’ve overlooked such an obvious show of favouritism. Why give Thor a storied weapon and leave Loki empty-handed? Heck, even Hela had the Necroblade.

In Thor 1, we might’ve assumed that the Casket of Ancient Winters was perhaps intended one day to be given to Loki, as it is shown with Mjolnir in the Vault and thus connected to it and the children who would inherit it. But in the comics, Odin did have another weapon of storied history put away for his second son: Gram the Sword.

It was locked for eons by Odin in a special vault which required five keys to be opened, and it was meant to be for Loki if he be worthy.[2] The five keys were infused by Odin with the powers of "journeys", "endurance", "secrets", "new beginnings", and "brotherhood", respectively.[3]

The sword, like everything else in comics, has a complicated history full of take-backs and twists, but let’s just leave it at ‘it’s a representation of Loki’s worthiness and belonging in the trifecta with Odin and Thor as a King of Asgard’. It gives him ‘equality’.

In the original mythology, it’s wielded by Sigurd to kill the dragon Fafnir, and the only relation it has to Loki is that Loki is partially responsible for Fafnir existing in the first place (my username is nod to this myth by the by. Sorry Ottär.) But hey, maybe that means we’re getting a dragon? The Fafnir would be very cool.

Or it could just be a bit of rebar in this mining quarry.

Then again...it appears somewhere else...

It’s easier to see in motion, but that’s a sword swinging on this person’s back.

So the hooded figure is this lady...shall we call her Amylkie? Does that mean she’s the antagonist of this show? Well...maybe, but I suspect the true antagonist is foreshadowed here -

So, what’s going on here? A young girl (Young Amylkie? Some other TVA prisoner that the guard is watching over? An oracle, A Norn, or a kid who wandered off from the tour group in a basilica somewhere?) She’s giving Mobius M. Mobius a...piece of chocolate. Maybe he saw a Dementor, I dunno. I suspect it’ll be a MacGuffin of some kind later. He looks pretty concerned here, which contrasts with his ‘another day at the office’ blaséness when dealing with Loki. But of course this is the eye-catcher:

So, Norse Mythology. It’s been Christiannized. You can thank Snorri Sturluson for that, but you can google all about him later. Let’s just say that he made many Norse figures into equivalents for Christian ones. Baldur is Jesus, pure and a sacrificial lamb who dies for a greater good. And the devil is...Loki. Something the Marvel comics and the MCU have continued.

Here we have a devil, dressed in green and with a distinct shape on his chest:

Hmmm...wait...I know that weird horny shape...

Ah. I’d say that cinches it. This is meant to be Loki. If you look at the devil’s hair, it also resembles Loki’s, being shoulder-length and black.

So, what’s devil-Loki doing? Laying an egg? Trying out a foot massager? For a second I thought it was a moon, but we see the moon over his left shoulder, amongst the stars. Which means this is - probably the Earth.

...Dammit; I live there.

So Earth is barren and being devoured by flames, likely caused by this Loki sitting atop of it (in a throne, no less). Aw gee, things look pretty bad, don’t they?

But wait - what’s that? Under the Earth (and, possibly, under the earth)?

It’s a plant. A shoot, to be exact.

Back to Ragnarok for a second. Ragnarok isn’t the apocalypse (something we see a lot of in this trailer - all of it seems to be exploring the end of days). Ragnarok is the fire meant to wipe out the old and fertilize the ground for the new. And after the gods have died, what happens? Well, Baldur emerges from Hel, one of the only surviving gods (hmm, seems him dying worked out, didn’t it?). He’s joined by Líf and Lífþrasir, who are the new first man and woman, who’s names mean ‘Life’ and who are pictured, usually, with plants and new life. It is they who are tasked who growing a new Yggdrasil after the destruction of the old. The previous first man and woman are Ask and Embla, meaning Ash Tree and Vine/Elm tree, so there’s a theme there.

So a new sprout, possibly a tree, growing out of the destruction of the old.

This fits with Loki’s role as understood in mythology. He checks the arrogance of the gods, including when they tried to achieve immortality (sorry, Baldur, nothing personal), and that keeps the gods at their best. After Loki is imprisoned, the gods become weak, unhelpful and foolish, and Yggdrasil starts to rot. Eventually Loki escapes and returns along with Surtur (who also resembles this figure) to burn it all to the ground. This is also referenced in Thor:Ragnarok, with Loki releasing Surtur in the Vault, a place of thematic importance to Loki and one that represents the hidden secrets and sins of Asgard). You could say Ragnarok continued into Infinity War, where Loki played an important part in aiding Thanos’ destruction, giving up the stone to protect his brother and essentially dooming the rest of the universe - but also ultimately leading to its salvation, even if, like Myth Loki, he wasn’t around to see it.

So, we see Amylkie literally start a fire in the trailer -

- in fact, this whole trailer is awash in flame -

It’s fire, fire everywhere and she’s setting them!

It’s possible Amylkie’s our big bad, but I think there’s a chance she’s either a red herring, or, much like how Loki ‘worked’ with Thanos in The Avengers, she is the pawn of a greater foe -

- a Loki bent on destruction, for some reason or other. The TVA is obviously aware that this is the case, and it seems like they might be trying to ‘fight fire with fire’ by enlisting one Loki to combat another. The villain could be President Loki, since there's evidence of 2 Lokis in that scene - or maybe that's one of many Lokis, and the Big Bad Loki is being played by Hugh Grant as Old Loki. In any case, it would appear that Loki will be coming face-to-face with the worst versions of himself, and many of them. And, if I’m right about this scene:

...Loki will likely eventually discover that even his ‘good’ timeline ended in the destruction of his people and home, plus his own gruesome and torturous death. Although I think the TVA will keep that from him, and just show him the happy parts in an effort to inspire ‘good behaviour’. Until Loki inevitably discovers the rest of how that timeline played out and realize he’s been lied to. I don’t imagine he’ll take that very well...

Damn, even our ‘hero’ Loki is burning stuff down! Does this mean that Loki is doomed, always meant to be an avatar of death and toasty destruction?

Well...let’s go back to that stained glass.

Hmmm...wait...I know that weird horny shape...

And there’s something else...the bottom of the Earth is being lit up, and not by fire. Light appears to be coming off this little plant.

What colour is this plant again? That’s right, green. Green is the colour of new life and growth and change and...hang on, I’ve heard that before, too...

Hang on hang on HANG ON... let me have a look at the shape again.

That’s...a letter. An L? For Loki? Like in the title sequence?

Wait...no, a different letter. An older letter. After all, Loki is old Norse. How do you spell his name in that again?

ᛚᛟᚲ ᛁ -

And ENHANCE on that third letter!

This, my friends, is a Kenaz/Kaunaz, or what would become 'K' in our alphabet. It is also known as the 'Loki Rune' (and the Ulcer Rune, for some reason. I suspect Odin understands why). It’s used to spell his name, but is also used on his own to represent him. Heck, it's even his Superman 'S' in the comics:

Runes are more than letters - they are symbols for concepts. So what else does it mean?

Primarly, it means ‘torch’.

And also ‘knowledge’ (ken). As well as ‘growth, change, the search for truth, decay, arrogance, elitism, feminine, kinship and creativity.’

...Okay, that’s a lot, but you have to admit it fits.

More specifically, it means ‘Mastery of the Fire’. As in, someone who has learned to tame fire so that it is helpful, not harmful. To bring light and, symbolically, knowledge.

There’s another way Loki’s been associated with fire - in the Wagner Ring Cycle, Das Rheingold, the opera that inspired much the Thor films’ aesthetic and certainly their helmets, Loki is called ‘Loge’, which means ‘Fire’. He’s usually dressed to match, too -

Many trickster figures are associated with fire. They are usually called ‘Fire-bringers’ - See: Raven, Lucifer, Prometheus, etc. They are often complex figures with a foot in different worlds, but who nonetheless help mankind with the gift of ‘fire’ - although they usually pay for it, and tend to be self-destructive.

(Side note. Lucifer means light-bringer, which is what luciferase is named after. Because it glows. Which is helpful in labs. In case someone needed to know that.)

Moving from a destructive fire-starter to a fire-bringer seems like a great character arc for Loki to take, especially given his rehabilitation in pop culture, the comics, and even wider culture. Loki has gone from being seen as an evil, deviant, destructive character to one who’s seen as a patron of the arts and creativity, of stories rather than lies. Heck, some scholars of Norse Mythology even posit that he’s the closet thing to a protagonist Norse Mythology has, so I guess that backfired, Snorri!). Being dressed in green and with the sprout clearly also being stylized after his Kaunaz, there’s foreshadowing that he’ll be capable of growing good things even out of ashes.

So, to sum up: Being ‘Satan’ sounds pretty bad, but with a little letter re-arranging like we see in the title sequence, you can be...

...practically a saint. Maybe even a saviour.

Merry Christmas, everybody.

#loki #trailer #details #meta #theories #theory #explanation #thor #tva #santa #devil #snorri sturluson whinging #christmas #fire #kaunaz #loki trailer

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worstloki · 3 years

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The Sylvie Show

this got a bit long so i'm putting it under a cut but basically it's episode summaries of what i would do if the loki show had sylvie as the main character instead, since I do think the plot of the show would be better suited to be focused around her rather than 2012 loki. I've tried to keep it so that a lot of existing canon shots/sets/scenes can be reused.

episode 1: the show opens up with young Sylvie on Asgard. The TVA appear and drag her towards a temportal. She wakes up from the apparent nightmare, gasping heavily. cue title card and cool music. a portal opens within a church, sylvie interrupts the man giving a talk on religion, questioning what he's saying with roundabout logic and being generally witty, even managing to incorporate giving a bar of gum she had in a pocket to a child sitting on an aisle seat who is really happy about it. the man is still coming up with an answer to what she said when the doors of the church are broken open and TVA agents start to file in. Sylvie says "about time," and proceeds to have fun slaying the unit and stealing a tempad. She picks up the charge on her way out, sending a blow kiss to the devil mural on the wall on her way out. cut to stepping out of a temportal, throwing the charge behind her over a shoulder (it lands on a mattress) and taking a heavy seat in front of a set of screens which show the inside of a mall. the cameras are mostly empty and where there are people it does not fascinate her (one of them shows someone reloading shelves). she scrutinizes the screens, drumming fingers on the table, but quickly sighs and pulls out her tempad: it flashes with low battery and she rolls her eyes, throwing it into a bin filled with likewise empty devices. she's about to get up when the cameras show a group of agents walking into the store. among them is one with a jacket reading VARIANT in bright orange. "Sh*t," she says, getting up and going to the mattress, rifling through a pile of clothes on the floor next to it "sh*t sh*t sh*t where is it". She pulls out a dark brown jacket, and the camera pans over to the screens again, where the VARIANT turns: it's Loki. A golden portal opens on the beige walls of the TVA, Hunter C-20 stepping through holding a man in 1940s army uniform by the arm and dragging him towards a desk. the man protests but she places a grenade on the counter and tells the deskworker to log it. "it wasn't a dummy," is the explanation she gives. In the background a single guard steps through a portal, looking around and proceeding to the doors out of this room. It's Sylvie, and she walks alone past other guards and rooms labelled Court and Memory Chamber. A group of people run past her saying a variant is loose and she walks faster. She walks past one court room, catching the words "trust me, you can smell the cologne of two Tony Starks," but continues looking around. An analyst (Mobius) rounds the corner in the direction of the court rooms and seems to be in a hurry, and Sylvie takes a sharp turn opening the closest door to her to avoid being seen. She is in a room with a Sacred Timeline screen, and zeroes in on the man closest to her, "what are you--" she places a hand over his mouth and pushes him down into his desk area behind his trolley, shushing him. "Do you know where the Reset Charge Storage Chambers are?" "Why?" *deep breath* *serious face on* "Tell me where the storaGE CHAMBer iS or I'll GUT YOU like a goAT!" "is that... like a fish?" *confusion* "how do you not know what a goat is?!" she spots a poster on the wall with a location guide and pushes Casey away with a hand to the face. "Nevermind." - We see Loki monologuing "the idea that your little club decides the fate of trillions of people across all of existence at the behest of three space lizards, yes, it's funny. It's absurd." an agent walks past in the background pushing a trolley but no attention is brought to it "I thought you didn't like to talk," mobius says. Sylvie pushes a door reading "Storage: Units" open, but looks and finds bodies in little cyro pod chambers lined up. "wrong door," she says, and pulls the trolley across the hall to the door reading "Storage: Charges." She's in a room with shelves filled up with reset charges, and opens the trolley drawer to find it already filled up with useless junk like infinity stones and such. to which she has no reaction. She shoves all that stuff to the side and out of the drawer, making space to

carefully place reset charges there. She individually picks up the two Tesseracts in it though and admires them, saying they're shiny and placing them on lower shelves in the room instead of on the floor. While she loads up the trolley ("a few more should do it") Loki walks past the door in full TVA outfit, happy and carrying a stack of papers that read RAGNAROK in bright red letters. She closes the drawer, takes her Hunter helmet off to shake out her hair and wipe sweat from her forehead, then puts it back on, pushing the trolley towards the door. Mobius has a hand at Loki's back, guiding him out of the Memory Chamber, Loki has clearly been crying and Mobius comforts him "it won't be so bad, you love being useful. and wearing suits." Sylvie walks past, pushing the trolley in the background. Sylvie continues down the hall, and when she sees no one behind or in front she pulls out her tempad and opens a portal, pushing her trolley and herself through. She's already gone and misses Classic Loki with a collar around his neck being escorted through the hall. - Sylvie and her trolley push through the portal and are in a mall, the lights dim and flickering above. Thunder is heard and lightning strikes as she places a reset charge on a shelf, flicking open a panel on it's side, and then walking a bit further and placing another. "May I help you?" a store employee asks, startling her. She considers. "Actually..." and places a hand to the person's temple - it takes a few seconds of effort but her fingertips glow green, and so does the person's eyes and temple, "don't mind if you do." She walks away from the trolley in a rush, and the store worker behind places a reset charge on a shelf. "I'm a bit short on time," she says to herself, pulling out her Tempad. Suspenseful music as the screen fades to black. - Everything cuts to a desert, with a small town in the background. A portal appears high up, and Loki falls from it to the ground. the words "twelve miles east of Puento Antiguo" appear on screen, and we see Loki formed a small crater in the ground, reminiscent of Mjolnir and the one in Stark Tower. "Ow," Loki says, taking the muzzle off with one hand, and then pulling the cuff chains off. The dust settles around him and he's still extricating himself from the hole in the ground and groaning about sand being irritating and getting everywhere when a golden portal opens up (we get a high shot, showing that Loki did indeed land within a larger crater too). Loki puts his hands in the air. "Appears to be a standard sequence violation. Branch is growing at a stable rate and slope. Variant identified." "Beg your pardon but I--" "On behalf of the Time Variance Authority, I hereby arrest you for crimes against the Sacred Timeline." "I didn't meddle with time, that would be the Avengers." "You're coming with us." *agents point pruners at him* "It's been a long day, I'm afraid you'll have to make me." *loki's hands start to glow green but B-15 presses a button, freezing him in place. Any sand blowing in the wind or any dust rising has also now stopped. There is a bird stuck mid-flight. B-15 pulls out a collar and places it around his neck. An agent places a reset charge on the ground and activates it, it starts to fizz purple. Time unfreezes and B-15 drags Loki going "hey!" through a temportal, and it closes, leaving the audience to watch a few seconds of the charge going off and the radius of the charge increasing, washing the ground in a bright neon-ish light.

Episode 2: this one is a combination of the Loki episodes 1 and 2. Basically, Loki goes on trial, the TVA has no reason he's committed a crime, but Mobius who had been at the church crime scene saves him and takes him to the memory chamber to break. What gets him to stop acting as if he actually wanted to rule all of space and whatnot is Mobius bringing up the topic of choice in Avengers 1, and asking if Loki knew the mind stone was effecting him too, along with him explicitly asking about the torture which happened before, even during - he pulls up footage - the invasion. Mobius pulls up footage of Frigga and Loki pickpockets the collar remote etc. everything else remains the same, including most of episode 2, with Sylvie fighting to "I need a hero" etc, but C-20 is left behind after being enchanted. When the TVA show up C-20 is tied up hastily in leather belts and rope. She's mostly out of it saying stuff like "it's real, it's all real" but she also says "we're variants, we're all variants" which Mobius obviously brushes over casually. Loki narrows his eyes though, and says stepping out of the renaissance fair tent would have them winding up dead like the agents scattered around here, B-15 calls bluff and Mobius says to wait but the people walking in front of the ones holding C-20 up to take her to the TVA for medical help fall dead upon stepping out. Loki was stalling for time with the wold anecdote, and doesn't tell how he knew the death thing would happen ("I see a scheme, and in that scheme I see myself" "bullsh*t" "it's true. my reflection looks quite good, too." "you *sshole." *he smiles softly, as if t'were a compliment*), and everyone gets back by opening portals from within the tent. The dots between the gum and the apocalypses is drawn, they see Pompeii, end up going to Roxxcart, where we see Sylvie watching the screens, now in her leather gear. B-15 and Loki split up together, the guy at the 'hurricane sale' placed a charge on the shelf but no attention is drawn to that bc Loki and 'Loki' are talking. Sylvie emphasizes that she holds a grudge because he's a traitor, specifically for working for the TVA because they're "condescending time fascists." Loki assures her he knows, and that he's seen the charges around the place. She comes to the realization that he's been undercover/faking. We're shown Mobius and co. finding the room with screens but it's just got Sylvie's random junk, nothing really useful. They talk some more, no physical fighting but the vessel sizes get bigger and Loki calls it 'real mature'. While they still disagree on what to do with the Time Lizards (destroy or overthrow) Sylvie settles on leaving the portal open for him at the end and giving him a chance. She waits for him to go through first, with Loki looking back at Mobius meaningfully determined and then walking through.

Episode 3: Young sylvie is going through the stripping/signing/temporal aura process. She's sent into the court room. she bites and runs out of the room, putting distance before fiddling with the tempad she took, figuring it out, while Renslayer gets stuck answering the Judge. Sylvie appears back on Asgard, but there's already a Sylvie there playing with her toys. a TVA portal opens and she presses another "Asgard" on the device to escape quickly. "I just want to go home," she says to herself, appearing in the same room, but the child is a bit older (a teen?) and a boy and black and reading instead of playing but he's clearly also in green/gold and a loki. the kid turns after hearing her and she panicks and goes through another portal. another one with adult loki in the same room, she looks hopeful as if she could ask for help but then sif walks in with insults and slaps him but spots her. "who's the kid," sif asks and a portal opens up next to her. Agents step through and Sif punches one that does, asking Loki what trick this is now. Sif/Loki fight them while they're still coming through, sylvie presses another asgard but sees a knocked out agent has a tempad on his belt and takes it before running again. no loki in the room, it's empty, but a group of people rush across, talking hurriedly about 'the goddess of death' and 'odin's real heir' and 'thor and loki dead' and 'seeking refuge in the moutains.' Sylvie looks lost. Cue titlecard and cool music. They step into the TVA. Sylvie is determined, telling Loki to hurry because they won't have much time the TVA remains in disarray from the reset charges everywhere, but stops when he says he needs to get a weapon. "Why didn't you use magic to get some earlier," she asks. "Spares," he smiles, "magic doesn't work here after all." Sylvie notes that it explains her last attempts to infiltrate failing so badly. They fight some guards together on the way to the elevator rather than fighting each other. The elevator to the time keepers opens but Renslayer and a bunch of guards are in it waiting. Sylvie grabs Loki and tries to use him as a bargaining tool. Doesn't work, obviously, and Sylvie is shaken upon coming face to face with the same Hunter who had caught her as a kid, she doesn't react in time to stop Loki taking her tempad and dropping them somewhere. Same plot from here, the two of them fighting over the tempad, with Sylvie wanting to go back and Loki telling her they clearly already failed and she should explain what's going on first. She says she doesn't need to and if he wants to help defeat the TVA he needs to trust her and give the tempad back. He makes it vanish and she gets frustrated, asking if he gives up on everything that easily, and maybe that's why he's the first Loki she's seen working with the TVA. Etc. They need a power source anyway and get to the train hoping it'll lead to the ship that won't get off-planet anyway. Loki acts a fool Sylvie naps, wakes up to singing. Sylvie calls him out for not actually being drunk and also he downs a glass and offers her one, and when Sylvie asks how he's paying for it he says it's on the house and points to the barkeeper (male. we're implying/showing flirting. maybe a wink at him or a cute wave.). It's blatantly clear he's trying to get info on her backstory along the way and she's not falling for it but allowing him to know a bit of stuff. (eg. "I know everything is watered down ale for an Asgardian," "watered-down watered-down, more like. But you know of Asgard? Do go on...") She softens at hearing his backstory, and shares hers too. The people appear and ask to see their tickets, everything is the same from here forward. The episode ends with them watching the ship getting destroyed.

Episode 4: different music when sylvie and loki look into each others eyes since i didn't like that. cue titlecard and song after the TVA portals open on Lamentis. this episode remains the same mostly with Sylvie and Mobius driving the plot. No narcissist comment but Mobius gets to act jelly of what Sylvie and Loki have going on. Instead of it just being a bad memory loop with Sif we get her three times and then it alternates to Thor who is also angry. If he's not already down Thor will punch him (even though Loki is just happy to see him bc he didn't think he'd see him again--) and then tell him to hold still so it'll hurt less. It's framed as bad and Thor will imply it's only a fitting punishment. Thor is only shown twice, the first time the scene cuts at Loki being hit and held down, the second is Thor leaving the room, chuckling about how Loki didn't need to talk to anyone anyway bc he's alone, says he'll heal soon anyway. Loki isn't shown, but Thor's fingers have blood on them where they hold mjolnir. the loop resets and Loki is back to standing in the middle of the room and ghosts a hand over his mouth and then Mobius arrives. Loki calls the repeated memory boring and cruel, says he hates when Thor is drunk and feeling rash, with Mobius saying at least he didn't send him to Thanos or something and gave his crotch a break. Sylvie asks what her nexus event was and Renslayer doesn't remember. The end of the episode is the same, with Sylvie 1v1-ing Renslayer and beheading a Time Keeper, Loki getting pruned. The credit scene remains the same.

#note that i didn't plan this beforehand and was making it up as i went and it took... maybe an hour?#maybe an hour and a half #yeah so #first draft idea.#tell me what you think :)#feel free to add suggestions #i'll probably add/change/rewrite on this as more episodes come out #i have a feeling Sylvie wouldn't've left the gum though?#we'll see #the Loki show #loki spoilers #loki show spoilers #i really took episode 4 making loki irrelevant to plot and not getting him character development either to heart i guess #also #if we're making the TVA evil and bad lets go all out and make loki go in a loop to a myth/comic-accurate punishment while at it :)#at least now we haven't downed the angst factor by playing something JUST for laughs #that's how sif can still crotch shot him #repeatedly

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iamnmbr3 · 3 years

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I think Loki taking inspiration from Rick and Morty could have worked and been very cool, but they missed the mark so much. If Loki was a badass like Rick but travelling through time instead of universes, starting trouble and fixing somethings along the way (intentionally or not), sounds badass! If he had powerful magic, as well as enchanted and tech gadgets to do his things, just like Rick uses science to do his, it would have been fun! If Loki met friends along the way that shifted his perspective even a little from depressive and nihilistic to hopeful and embracing that he's enough, even if the multiverse has no meaning him and everyone else can have because they give themselves meaning, that would have been one hell of a ride!

But sadly that's not what we got, they may have aimed at Rick and Morty but didn't even get close. Don't even get me started about how they also have nothing to with Doctor Who other than time travel.

haven’t seen rick and morty but this, like pretty much everything else fans have come up with, sounds better than what we got. no fan would be so stupid as to think the way to make a loki show is to not center it on loki and to have the people who torture, enslave, and humiliate him be the good guys. and yeah. if the Doctor ever met Mobius or the TVA he’d be absolutely disgusted by them. this is like doctor who made by someone who doesn’t get doctor who. also imagine a doctor who ep where they don’t travel anywhere. classic doctor who feels bigger budget than this mess and feels like the world is more expansive.

#asks #loki tv series #loki show #loki tv show #loki series #loki 2021

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thelightofthingshopedfor · 3 years

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so I wrote most of this...four days ago, and then somehow didn’t get around to finishing it until just now, which feels super weird because after writing this I started getting worried about future episodes again for a variety of reasons, and of course now we’re at T minus 10 minutes? (honestly if I’m somehow late for my own funeral I’m pretty sure no one will be surprised.) but I still wanted to post this to go over some of what I liked so much about episode 4, even if...I am no longer anywhere near as confident as I was a few days ago about where the show might be going. whatever.

***

I’ve done almost nothing for the past day or so except chew over episode 4 some more, partly trying to figure out why I liked it so much when it was broadly very divisive, and I realized that a lot of what I’ve been feeling from this episode is relief.

the thing is I’ve been paranoid since at least Infinity War about Marvel doing setup that looks like it’ll lead to a big payoff and then nothing (Loki’s death, but also Gamora’s and maybe Vision’s, and the general fact that the “fix” to IW was convoluted, took place much later, and caused as many problems as it solved, and just, Endgame in general), so I don’t really trust Marvel that way anymore. plus Marvel has pretty badly fumbled a lot of different things in the past, especially on various social issues, by introducing unfortunate implications that apparently didn’t occur to them even though they’re obvious to literally everyone else...stuff like Thanos’s “sacrifice” of Gamora, or how the Flag-Smashers were portrayed and Karli was a villain for no real reason, or how it would’ve been so easy to add a couple lines in WandaVision that would fix the whole thing where the Maximoffs weren’t just whitewashed but they also voluntarily worked with Nazis and they whiffed that too.

so, while I’ve been enjoying the show, a lot of that enjoyment has been based on meta I’ve seen and me sort of going “this interpretation is really cool and it makes a lot of sense, but at this point I can’t know if it’s something the showrunners are doing on purpose or if they sorta accidentally implied depth where there wasn’t any and it’s not actually leading anywhere” with things like the TVA being very clearly authoritarian but also supposedly the good guys, Loki being constantly described as an awful person, Loki sometimes being manic or incompetent, etc. etc. etc., along with the similar interpretation of “sure, we fans know all this stuff about how Loki is not an awful person actually, thanks, and the people who arrested him aren’t automatically Good Guys just because they’re in opposition to him but casual viewers--including not-casual-but-not-fannish viewers who should really know better--have not figured any of this out and so the show needs to go out of its way to demonstrate things that are obvious to us” but I wasn’t sure. the second half of episode 1 made me feel pretty good about where the show was headed as far as Loki’s characterization and emotions were concerned, but the more lighthearted aspects of 2 and 3 had me wondering again.

so then what happens in this episode?

the TVA goes fully mask off. the Time-Keepers are in fact fake, the Sacred Timeline by extension is also basically fake, the people who work there are all variants, the ones we know (C-20, B-15, Mobius) show grief and anger over the lives that were stolen from them, Sylvie is arrested as a child who did absolutely nothing wrong (and then put through the same process Loki was in episode 1, which is cool because a lot of it was kinda played for laughs then but showing the same things happening to an innocent child also serves to reframe what happened to Loki as, hmm, not that funny after all maybe!), Renslayer is willing to prune innocent people--friends and coworkers, even--just because they learned too much, all the sinister propaganda WAS SUPPOSED TO BE SINISTER

Loki gets very serious very fast in this episode. he displays a lot of genuine emotion and trauma but he mostly does it in a calculated way that shows just how fast his brain works and how he’s always, always thinking about what other people want/expect from him. (like--even the complaint about too few guards seems to fall into that category, given that he only says it after Mobius insists he must be wanting to make some kind of quip!) his self-image is garbage but through Sylvie he’s starting to maybe work on that. he goes up against multiple armed enemies while completely unarmed and holds his own until he gets a weapon. he pushes back when it matters and doesn’t just accept everything Mobius throws at him. he lies, pretty competently (the fact that Mobius doesn’t believe him is...really not his fault, considering Mobius wouldn’t believe him at first about the truth either, so I’m pretty sure he wasn’t planning to believe anything Loki outright told him), when it actually matters, primarily in what sure seems like an attempt to protect someone he cares about.

and Mobius. says that Loki WAS RIGHT. ABOUT THE TVA. FROM THE BEGINNING!!! I would still love to hear him say explicitly, look, I said a lot of shitty things to you and tossed in some actual physical torture at the end there oops but the vast majority of it was stuff I didn’t really mean and was only saying to get a reaction and/or information and of course it turns out I was wrong about all the TVA stuff, so I want to say for the record that I was wrong about you personally in many different ways and I’m sorry. (which, honestly, would probably be very awkward for both of them because I doubt Loki has much experience receiving genuine apologies.) but I’m mostly okay with it if he doesn’t, because I feel like you were right from the beginning, and by the way you can be whatever you want does a decent job of implying most of that. (...enough for casual viewers to pick up on it? well, I’m not hoping for miracles but sure, probably some of them.)

in other words? all that stuff the casual viewers were missing (not helped by misleading statements from the showrunners), about the TVA so clearly being bad guys, and Loki being a pretty decent person who presents different versions of himself in different situations and also has some shitty coping mechanisms, and the other Loki variant also not being evil just because they were trying to take down the TVA? we were right. that is, in fact, how the showrunners intended all those things to be taken. they didn’t want to come right out with that stuff at first because they wanted to tell a story and have some twists, and the fact that these things were twists for casual viewers is exactly why it was frustrating to a lot of fans, because it felt like obvious things were being misrepresented or overlooked. I still think that’s reasonable, because see above on why Marvel doesn’t necessarily deserve that trust, but at this point I’m a lot more comfortable believing that this specific show more or less knows what it’s doing.

I mean, yeah, there were some cool fan theories that went nowhere, like the whole thing with the broken TemPad, and I agree that was dumb and it’s very annoying that it really was just sloppy writing, but I guess specific things like that just...don’t bother me as much as more systemic, overarching elements like the characterization of Loki and the TVA. and yes, of course I’ll always be annoyed that we’re apparently never going to get explicit confirmation that Loki’s alliance with Thanos was coerced at best. but, you know, what we got isn’t nothing.

#loki #loki show #loki spoilers #mobius m. mobius #sylvie #marvel cinematic universe #meta #loki meta #my meta #I should add links but uh...maybe later

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lokigodofaces · 3 years

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list of variants/timelines i want to believe exist (and probably canonically do now)

this got long so i'm putting in a cut

a world where all of the events that happened in the Framework are real

bonus if the Framework world has their own version of the Framework that is like the real world in aos

Steve fell off the train, not Bucky. bc of the crap Zola did to Bucky, he survives in ice and well, and everything happens the same but Steve and Bucky's roles are reversed

Coulson doesn't bother to keep it a secret that he's alive, and the mcu is mainly just aos but with all the main characters as well (in other words, there's mainly good writing)

also in that world Steve and Bucky love Lola

Steve doesn't go back in time to live with Peggy

to all the people claiming aos isn't canon: Sylvie just made everything canon y'all. aos absolutely happened, and while i will argue that it happened in the main timeline, if you don't want to believe that it still happened in a timeline

Bucky didn't remember Steve soon enough, not until he killed Steve

Steve killed the Winter Soldier and didn't know who it was until he removed the mask

Hydra didn't hunt down Jiaying and by extent Daisy, so Daisy was raised by Jiaying and Cal who are not crazy bc they didn't have the same experiences they did in the main timeline

Thor never takes the others to Jotunheim, so Loki never learns he is Jotun

Fitz didn't survive almost drowning

Ward wasn't recruited by Garrett, but by literally any non-Hydra agent so he is a good guy

Coulson and May listened to the agent telling them to not send May in at Bahrain, heaven knows what happens there

the government gives the Avengers more than a week to go through the Accords, so they all get to the enhanced-people-have-to-wear-trackers, giant-underwater-prison, enhanced-operatives-can't-investigate-politicians, no-trial-for-enhanced, no-investigation-for-enhanced, etc sections so they all decide to not sign and just don't care what the government says

this is random, but i feel like Bucky as Ghost Rider would be a cool aesthetic.

the Avengers meet Robbie bc he keeps assassinating their targets bc they're targets of Ghost Rider's

Daisy dies instead of Lincoln

Daisy kills Lash before he can save her

Loki never "dies," so he is sent back to Asgardian prison after tdw

Radcliffe never reads the Darkhold, he just gave it to AIDA, so most of s4 doesn't happen

Dreykov comes after Natasha between Avengers and CACW, leading to the Avengers beating his *ss (like Yelena said, the god from space doesn't need an ibuprofen after a fight)

everything's the same but no Joss Whedon going on and on about Natasha not being able to have kids

whatever ship scenario you have is canon now

Loki gets all panicky after the Hulk beats him to a pulp, having now realized what he's done. Thor believes him, and this leads to Thanos being killed in 2012-13

Deadpool sits in the back of everything, shouting comments like "Yay! Superhero landing! But don't do that, it's bad for your knees!"

Peter Parker's parents never die

the Cavalry is an Avenger

Yondu brings Peter Quill to Ego, causing the universe's destruction

Gamora and Nebula get along their entire lives

Gamora and Nebula switch roles (Gamora becomes the cyborg, Nebula the guardian and Thanos's favorite daughter)

Heimdall actually bothers to look for Loki, seeing if they can find his body for a funeral, to find that he is being tortured by Thanos. Odin refuses to send anyone to save him, making Thor realize just how awful he is. Thor, Sif, and Warriors 3 go with the help of Heimdall to save Loki

Odin and Frigga are actually good parents, creating the most iconic trio ever

tw suicide for the next bullet point

Bucky commits suicide between TWS and CACW (Sebastian said in an interview once that Bucky was suicidal)

Loki keeps coming back as DB Cooper for fun or bc he keeps losing bets

the Eternals did interfere

the shrapnel kills Tony

this one thing i made about Mr Rogers adopting Loki

Robbie is part of the Avengers in 2012, but when he sees Loki he immediately says that Loki isn't the issue and goes off to fight Thanos single handedly (and wins)

for whatever reason Coulson and May do legally adopt all the Bus Kids

Hunter and Bobbi both go to break Fitz out of prison, and they stick around for the rest of the season

Fitz and Jemma never meet (saddest of sad days)

Loki for some reason is in FFH and he sees Mysterio's illusions and just laughs bc he's such an amateur

everything's the same, everyone's just obsessed with classical music and it's constantly playing so i get happy watching it

Asgardians are like the elves in LOTR (books, not the movies), so they're constantly singing and dancing and all

Loki is shown playing a Norse flute-like instrument (we know they exist, we've found them, they're different than your typical flute and we don't really know how they sound but i want Loki to be a flautist and no i'm not not projecting (note the double negative) and yes i headcanon Loki to be a flautist i don't care what anyone says)

everyone gets therapy

someone (Monica or Jimmy) hits Hayward on the head, knocking him out (the same way Gandalf knocked out Denethor in ROTK when Denethor told everyone to flee) and the rest of SWORD works with them because clearly Hayward has issues

Stephen commits to not texting and driving

somehow Luis becomes He Who Remains just for one timeline so the entire story is told like how he tells his flashbacks

Coulson doesn't help Fury and Carol escape

T'Challa does not survive and M'Baku becomes Black Panther

the suit in Iron Man 3 is not garbage the entire movie

Tony doesn't find a way to save himself in time

Ross dies in Incredible Hulk

Loki has a pet flerken he just always carries around

by the same logic, Bucky has a kitten he meets between TWS and CACW that he always carries around. said kitten attacks people when they attack Bucky

Bucky becomes Captain America instead of Sam

when Thor goes back to 2013 Asgard, he drags Loki with him back to 2023

Clint tests the time travel by going to Sokovia and drags Pietro back with him

Steve comes back an old man, but they use Bruce's attempt at time travel to turn him back into the 30 something Steve he was

literally anything happens other than Thanos killing Loki bc Loki only used knives when he isn't even tall enough to reach Thanos's neck

Sam and Bucky straight up kill Walker

Daisy never goes through terrigenesis

Loki somehow ends up a tutor for Daisy

Bucky joins the aos team after they find him on the run from Hydra

Bucky plays baritone saxophone bc bari saxes are awesome and it adds nothing to the plot but he spends at least half an hour in each movie playing bari sax

everything's the same but John Williams is the composer

S.H.I.E.L.D. uses GH-325 to revive a bunch of composers (Mozart, Dvorak, Beethoven, Bach, Bizet, Holst, y'know, all my guys) because they for whatever reason have their bodies because of some wack mission. and now they have a bunch of classical composers alive who insist on writing more music. and what are you going to do, tell Bach to stop composing?

by that same logic, someone working at the Guest House decides to steal Freddie Mercury's body so that they can revive him bc he just loves Queen that much

Thor realizes how awful Odin is and makes it his goal to get revenge for what Odin did to his little brother

Thor meets a bunch of Loki variants (most notably gator Loki) and just decides to stop questioning anything ever

Mobius teaches Loki how to ride a jet ski

Loki arrives at S.H.I.E.L.D. and informs everyone he wants to go to school and learn about politics and run for president and S.H.I.E.L.D. is like "okay whatever just don't tell anyone you're a literal god" but have no way to stop Loki from telling anyone

y'know the "shot heard 'round the world" thing from the Battle of Lexington (first battle in American revolution, if you don't know what it is, we have no clue who made the first shot & both sides were telling their troops to not fire. once that shot was fired the battle broke out)? yeah well that was Loki i'm pretty sure

Loki comes to Earth and becomes an Avenger and all but only ever introduces himself as DB Cooper. Thor doesn't ever come to Earth, so everyone just thinks DB Cooper found the secret to not age and just showed up to save people. he disappears for stretches of time & everyone stops being confused bc he was in hiding for decades of course no one's gonna find him (he is actually on Asgard)

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scintillatingshortgirl19 · 3 years

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A list of my personal Loki series fears and wishes

As the first episode draws near, I just wanted to make a list of everything I can think of that I'm afraid of and the things I'm hoping for in the Loki series and there are probably things I'm forgetting because god there's so MUCH. These are just rough lists and my personal thoughts at the moment, and some are really important and some are fairly trivial (and also range all over the place in terms of how realistic they are). I mainly just want to be able to look back at this post when the series has finished and see what came true and what didn't.

Fears (in no particular order):

TVA and/or Timekeepers framed as the good guys

Mobius is toxic (I'm really hoping he won't be! Loki needs a friend!)

The things wrong in Loki's life being framed as entirely his fault and Loki's family/Asgard/Thanos are not held accountable

Loki's trauma not addressed in general

Basically Loki recognizes his behaviors that are harmful to himself/others (in itself, not a bad thing!) but doesn't get to see some of the reasons WHY he behaves that way in the first place (he didn't come out of the womb with all these issues - we can easily point to several specific people who essentially made him the way he is). If the latter isn't part of his self-reflection, I think it'll feel pretty victim blame-y.

Retcons Loki's almost-deaths as faking, rather than a suicide attempt (1st) and a sacrifice (2nd)

The show "confirming" things that are objectively not true - such as Sif/Warriors 3 were actually good friends to him, Odin was a good father, Thanos didn't torture and/or brainwash Loki, etc.

The show's framing of incorrect things Mobius says about Loki/ Loki's responses to him saying those things (death and destruction everywhere you go, stabbed people in the back 50x, possibly other things we haven't seen yet...I'm really hoping "I'd never do it again" is edited and it's a response to something else but I really doubt it.)

It's just that, with Mobius M. "I've Studied Every Moment Of Your Entire Life" Mobius, there are....a lot of opportunities for gaslighting both Loki and the audience, so this is the worst fear for me at this point.

Loki actually says "crap" (it's not just a trailer edit)

Not feeling like Loki/characterization feeling off in general

Handling the genderfluid thing badly (the fact they used the term sex and not gender could be a way to act like they have representation but not have to actually make him queer)

No confirmation or even hints of his queerness in terms of sexuality

Continuing to ignore the Jotun stuff like the films have

The DB Cooper look will last longer than a few minutes (the short hair just doesn't feel like Loki, ok? I'm hoping that part will be very brief)

Various fanon things we've all collectively decided on that I'm personally attached to end up not being true (like Loki liking cats and having a sweet tooth)

Edit - I forgot one of the most obvious ones, which is that the ending will be bad. I just want my son to be happy and for this show not to end with him in a miserable situation, or dead, or in some other form of nonexistence (such as the series ending with kid Loki or something).

Wishes (also in no particular order):

Exploration of Loki's Jotun heritage

Mobius ends up being an actual good friend to Loki (I'm hoping for Mobius to basically have an arc of "mostly good person working for bad people, realizes the organization he supports isn't what he thought, and eventually turns against them." Or something like that.)

For somebody to fucking hug him (in a way that he actually likes and isn't just somebody violating his space)

Just. Loki tears. (I need that emotional whump, damn it)

A scene where Loki wakes up from a nightmare

Some kind of panic attack (or aforementioned nightmare) hurt/comfort scene

Or honestly hurt/comfort of any kind (just somebody please get this boy some goddamn comfort)

Exploration/acknowledgement of Loki's trauma (both Odin/Asgard and Thanos)

Or even just like. somebody at least acknowledge he's been harmed?? Bc I'm pretty sure that's literally never happened.

Confirmation of Loki's queer gender

Confirmation of Loki's queer sexuality

Cool magic stuff! (I mean this is really already confirmed but putting it here anyway)

Loki just. doing mundane things? Especially things that let us see his little quirks and, idk, small random stuff that he likes and dislikes?

#well that got longer than i thought it would #and again i do feel like i'm forgetting things #loki tv series #loki tv series negativity #also positivity but still gonna tag it #loki series negativity

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