#however I hate how absolutely stupid this fandom is

[sarasade]

One of the most generally useful things to come out of Hbomberguy's plagiarism video and Todd in the Shadows' similar video on misinformation is how they bring transparency to the internet phenomenon of "I made up a guy to get mad at".

Seriously, I've seen people make up a lot of stupid shit on the internet over the years and it's often just a manipulative attempt to paint a group of marginalized people in a bad light.

That's the TL;DR version of this post. 

ANYWAY here is the long version

Those videos are mostly about James Somerton's plagiarism of other queer people's work. However I'd like to talk about that 20-30% of Somerton's original writing- and oh boy. It's mostly about complaining about White Straight Women and misgendering well-known trans creators such as Rebecca Sugar and calling Becky Albertalli a straight woman while it's pretty common knowledge that she was forced to out herself as bi because she received so much harassment over "being a cishet woman who appropriates LGBT+ stories".

One thing that irks me especially is how in his Killing Stalking and Gay Shipping videos Somerton brings up how straight women/ teen girl shippers exploit gay men for their personal sexual fantasies. This gets brought up several times in his videos.

Being all up and arms about Somerton being a "White Cis Gay Who Hates Women and Queer People tm" is not that useful because the kind of rhetoric he's using is extremely common in fandom and LGBT+ spaces on Tumblr, TikTok and Twitter. We really don't need to bring Somerton's identity to this since he is in no way an unique example.

It's hypocritical to make this about an individual person when I've seen A TON of posts, tweets and videos where queer people talk about these Sinister Straight Women who are supposedly out there fetishizing and exploiting queer men. It's pretty clear to me that this is just an excuse to shit on women and queer people for having any sexual interests. At worst these comments are spreading misinformation about BL, a form of media that has been excessively studied by both Asian feminists and Asian queer women.

This all sounds really familiar and I think it's good that people are calling it out as what it is: misogyny and transphobia. I'd also point out the potentially racist motives behind being this hypervigilant about Asian media.

People can absolutely be misogynist regardless of gender or orientation. I really don't know why we need to create some kind of made up enemy to get mad at. I actually think it's almost sinister how "anti-fujoshi" people call Slash shippers and fujoshi misogynists or claim that they have internalised misogyny while being dismissive about women's interests and creative pursuits under Japanese obscenity laws, China's censorship, book bans in American schools and various other disadvances that are part of being a queer and/or female creator.

I think we shouldn't be naive about the bad faith actors who want to turn queer people against each other. For example Fujoshi.info mentions anti-gender (TERF, GC etc) movement using this kind of rhetoric as well.

Anyway if you want to read more:

- about the false info around BL fandom fujoshi.info

-There is the scholar Thomas Baudinette who studies gay media in Japan. Here is a podcast with him and the scholar Khursten Santos

-James Welker is a BL scholar as well. Here is a podcast interview about the new international BL article collection he edited.

-I've already talked about this Youtube channel by KrisPNatz and his great Killing Stalking video that actually engages with the themes of the manhwa

- There is also HR Coleman's thesis DO NOT FEED THE FETISHIZERS: BOYS LOVE FANS RESISTANCE AND CHALLENGE OF PERCEIVED REPUTATION where she interviews 36 BL fans and actually breaks down why fetishization has become such a huge talking point in the fandom discourse. Spoilers, it's mostly about young queer people and women being worried that they will get judged and pathologized for their interest in anything sexual.

-Great podcast about Danmei and censorship with Liang Ge

#Also I don't mean that you can always tell if someone is a transphobe or a TERF based on a couple of things they have said. #My point is that sometimes ok people can have very regressive ideas too. #This is not a call out post about how we should go around accusing anti-fujoshi people #todd in the shadows #hbomberguy #sarasade text #even I've got those “Fandom is mostly straight women fetishizing gay men” comments once and it begins to sound kind of passive-aggressive #when you're a bi woman. Lot of fandom stats at AO3 show that fandoms are montly bi women. who are these people calling straight exactly hmm #also straight women are completely ok leave them alone. I know I know Yes I'm so brave for saying this #cw: transphobia

[pretend-i-do-not-exist]

Under Spell, Right From The Start

Synopsis: He insists you're nothing special... but if that's the case, why do you cross his mind so often?

Pairing: Lucifer, Mammon, Satan, Belphegor × MC (separate)

CW: Gender Neutral MC, You/Yours, Fluff, Crushes, Spoilers for lesson 16 (OG) in Belphie's part, A smidge of angst in Belphie and a drop of it in Satan's too bc I couldn't resist

A/N: HEY HI!! So this is my first post, for this fandom specifically, and I'm still trying to grasp my writing style, so I apologise if it's a bit everywhere and not the best. However, if you do enjoy this trainwreck that I call writing, feel free to leave me a request. I'd really love to see some :]]] Thank you so much for taking the time to read this and HAPPY VALENTINES DAY ♡

Lucifer:

How could this be? The Avatar of Pride falling for a mere human? Impossible. He would never.

...Is what he said initially.

Over time, he found himself craving your presence

There was something about you that had him absolutely enthralled

Maybe it was the way you convinced him to take breaks

Or maybe it was the comfortable silence you settled in

You were doing your own things, but... doing them together? Even better.

Perhaps it was the way you learned to manage his brothers

#singlemomgetsabreak

That's a lie. He never gets a break.

#justiceforsinglemom

Now, you could manage his brothers

That doesn't mean you were always going to do it

He insists you're giving him grey hairs

But he enjoys having you around

And he cared for you, more than he wanted to admit to himself.

You're part of the family, after all :)

Mammon:

Pf- please. He's modelled for the biggest brands and has been on the covers of magazines.

He's got a line of demons waiting for him, and you think he'd get hung up on you? Yeah, right.

And he's definitely not trying to grab your attention when you join him for his photoshoots

And he'd never get pouty when you can't hang out with him because you've already made plans

Why should he care?

Oh, but he'd give anything for your attention

MC, he quite literally will run across the Devildom for you if you call

He's your first!

If he isn't by your side, and you aren't by his, then what's he gonna do??

He's greedy. That's what he is.

He's the Avatar of Greed, and you're his most valuable treasure.

Satan:

He has his books, he has his knowledge, and he's very content with it all

The last thing he needs is anyone disturbing that peace for him.

But... you.

He strangely likes his peace even more when you're there?

You could both be doing your own things in mutual silence or you could be talking about a new book the two of you are reading (that is if you like reading)

You make him feel even more at peace than if he was on his own

Then it hits him, he doesn't enjoy your presence, he enjoys you.

He's thinking about you when he's reading a new novel

Imagining you both as the protagonists because he's shaking the thought out of his head

Because you wouldn't want that, would you?

He's taking his time doing more and more little things for you

Annotating books

Letting you borrow books from him

Recommending books to you

It's all worth it to see that smile on your face

He just didn't realise it then

Belphegor:

He hates humans and you're no exception.

He just needs to get out of this stupid attic

Then he'll show them all

He's said it before and will continue to say it: this exchange program is a bad idea

... Because he's met you.

You're ruining this for him, I mean why do you have to be so beautiful?

Why do you have to be so nice?

Why are you so eager to help him?

You don't know how he's...

It. Doesn't. Matter.

You're human.

That's not gonna change.

Even after the murder, he finds his thoughts recircling

You- you're forgiving him? After everything? How??

More importantly, why does his heart swell with hope?

Hope that things can work out between you two

It's a crazy dream of his, that's for sure

Speaking of dreams, you're frequenting them more and more

He thought that it would be the opposite but boy was he wrong

His dreams are simultaneously becoming his worst nightmares because as sweet as they are while he's asleep...

Nothing quite dispels that feeling of disappointment when he wakes up again and you're not there.

#obey me #obey me lucifer #obey me satan #obey me belphegor #obey me mammon #obey me lucifer x reader #obey me satan x reader #obey me belphie x reader #obey me mammon x reader #omswd #obey me shall we date #Spotify

[kerubimcrepin]

Live-read: "Julith et Jahash" - Part 1

In the past, I said that I would wait for a translation that is currently in the making in the russian fandom. However, because I am weak, and want to keep this blog going asap, I lied. (This liveblog will be very slow due to this, so be warned.)

This comic will let us understand Joris better... while literally all of his personality, morals, body language, and tastes, are a product of Kerubim, — this might shed light on A. family history, that might dictate his physiology (what if Julith randomly says she has an allergy? This isn't real, but it would be big for Joris lore), and the things he went through after the movie: what experience he would have with the huppermage culture, which he was cut off from for his entire life thus far.

Question: is there a single member of this family who DOESN'T fish??

Kramdam is a part of Rok Island, the name of which will be familiar to you if you're A. a player of the MMOs, B. batshit insane about Joris lore.

It might be silly, for me to point this out, but listen: the movie, the series, they all happen hundreds of years before the Dofus MMO, — so to have confirmation that Rok Island is that old, is very interesting.

I had previously said that huppermages aren't very fond of cultures outside their own, and I want to elaborate, so that my words aren't misconstrued: Huppermages culture is, in a lot of ways, a mixture of different classes, — because a lot of huppermages aren't born huppermages, but instead, people who convert to this class, and a lot of their spells are inspired or taken from other classes. However, not assimilating fully is... very unwelcome.

Having a history of oppression and at least one genocide in the years after the movie, made huppermages very understandably conservative and closed-off. But this culture, as we'll see from this comic, had some pretty toxic traits even before those scars.

HOLY FUCKING SHIT. Like I already knew about this, but I want you to understand: the stupid fucking log thing is a family trait.

Do you think Joris told Bakara "I hate magic, I hate magic, I hate magic. I HATE WANDS. I HATE STAFFS. I KEEP BREAKING THEM. LET ME OUT. LET ME OUT OF THE ACADEMY. STOP HAVING ME BE ENROLLED!!!!" and the next day she brought him a fucking log. Do you think this is what happened.

So small, and already sure that she'll never be as good as her brother... man.

Also... Bakara and Joris looked very similar as kids. At least that's my opinion.

I didn't think this comic would make me emotional, but the Jurgen family having a thing for logs is making me violently ill.

It probably was Bakara who gave him that bright idea. And Kerubim was probably like "ok son, I am someone who also uses blunt weapons, I can teach you how to do this."

There isn't some "i like to use logs" gene, it was all just Joris preferring to use melee, Bakara's memories of Jahash's melee skills, and Kerubim's skill in melee fighting.

It is just... insane to me, how Joris ends up doing this one thing that his biological father liked to do, despite how different they are as people. Despite Joris likely feeling absolutely nothing towards the man.

Well, that, or he fucking hates Jahash, though probably not as much as Julith.

Think about it this way, — Jahash and Julith ruined his childhood by their reappearance. They ruined his life for the next few decades too, probably. And after? They would always be a shadow over his life, for as long as they are remembered. It's always either "you're evil and we don't trust you because you're Julith's son" (even though he knows that Julith was framed,) or "you're not good enough, even though you're Jahash's son. How come?" (even though he knows from Bakara that... Jahash was just a man. Even if it is hard for him to put together the almost-holy image of his father as seen on the stained-glass in a temple, and the image of him that Bakara talks about, — a human person, who had fears and dreams.)

The only way for Joris to live his own life, without any judgement or comparison, without being reminded of how shit his childhood was, is to wait for the World of Twelve to forget who the fuck a Julith and Jahash even are. It's logical for him to have some irrational resentment.

And yet he brings a log to a nuke fight in season 4. Jahash would never do this, because he got good at magic, but he WOULD approve.

His parents would have loved him a lot, if they had the chance.

List of things that Joris and Bakara share:

Neurotic perfectionist who struggles with self-hatred about their skills and their body.

Cute ass behaviours and expressions as children.

Alcoholism (this is my fanon for Joris. It came to me in a vision. He's just like Kerubim and Bakara, — needs to get shitfaced to cope.)

Haunted by Jahash's success in life, even though Jahash would NEVER have wanted either of them to be haunted.

Thin grabbable waist and twinkish/waifish looks as adults. (Joris is already a twink, despite his 3ft stature, but NEVER forget the official concept art of how Joris would look if he wasn't possessed by a dragon as an infant. He would be a tall, blonde, anime twink instead.)

Whisperers have, historically, been used as servants by Bontarians and Huppermages.

Though by Waven times, they are enemies of the state (at least dissenting ones), and Joris wants you to beat the shit out of them, for the sake of his beautiful nation. (because they're dissenting)

Jahash and Bakara grew up with their dad, Juvence Jurgen.

By huppermage standards, they lived in very unusual conditions.

"All huppermage towers are super-protected, we WILL die if we don't take precautions, so I will go ahead, and deliver the message myself."

Yeah, no, they're not typical huppermages. I guess Joris has a lot in common with Bakara and Jahash. (I keep making myself sad, thinking about this.)

He thinks that Jahash and Bakara are some local hicks/rednecks that the huppermage has been experimenting on, which raises many red flags. Like the fact that apparently, human experimentation is a thing that some huppermages do. Then he thinks that the huppermage is experimenting on his own kids.

The headcanon that Jahash might have had some learning disabilities that he gave to Joris as one last "sayonara you weaboo shit" genetical move, and that it was REALLY hard for him to learn magic and impossible for Joris, stays winning.

By the way, I guess this is a good time to give you the next, very funny piece of trivia:

Joris's name literally means "George George the Farmer Farmer".

I think it's likely that, historically, before Jahash's success in life, their family were just some random poverty-stricken farmers, who happened to be huppermages.

I'M SO FUCKING SAD ABOUT THEM.

Grandpa Jurgen is literally so fucking real.

THE HEADCANON THAT JAHASH MIGHT HAD LEARNING DISABILITIES THAT HE GAVE TO JORIS AS ONE LAST "SAYONARA YOU WEABOO SHIT" GENETICAL MOVE, AND THAT IT WAS REALLY HARD FOR HIM TO LEARN MAGIC AND IMPOSSIBLE FOR JORIS, STAYS WINNING.

Juvence really cares about his kids.

"If you don't do as master says, he will kill you and all your loved ones."

Guys I'm starting to think, that between this, the political intrigues, the bullying, the "using Bakara for PR while she becomes a teenage alcoholic and not giving a shit about her" thing, — that the huppermage academy and temple, are um.... not actually Good, as an institution.

To most this is "an honour," and yet, this random selection process chose a teenage huppermage who, by all accounts, can't do magic and doesn't know a single spell.

I'm so fucking sad.

You know what else these two quotes can apply to? Haha. well. I ask you to imagine Jahash's funeral, and—— [i collapse on the floor weeping]

"He was always more like a father to her, than an older brother."

I am going to crash my car into the sea. And I don't even have a car.

#ro liveblogs dofus #dofus #wakfu #krosmoz #joris jurgen #julith-et-jahash #bakara jurgen

[neil-perrys-suicidal-tendencies]

I am a dead poet's society fan who is also a swiftie.

However, I did not watch the movie because of the album and I'm tired of all the people who are putting her down due to absolutely no reason?

Like, you might not like her music and I respect that wholeheartedly but if you think you are better than others because you don't like a popular artist and think ger music is 'basic' and it 'sucks' then please get a life. If you think she is a serial dater who only writes songs about her exes - then that's blatant mysogyny because 1. She doesn't, 2. Who doesn't.

I did not expect this from the dead poets society fandom. Hating a popular artist does not give you a personality please.

I dislike a lot of artists, some of them are popular but I have never made a single post about how seemingly shallow they are. I hate to break it to you, haters you are equally, if not much more obsessed with her than we are.

And she has written so. many. songs that are dead poets society coded (evermore, my tears ricochet, hoax, exile, the lakes, this is me trying, mirrorball, forever winter). She is a respected songwriter who can weave wonderful stories if you are willing to check them out.( if you think you could've written folkmore in your notes app - release the album king )( and no one is saying all her stuff is poetic- but a lot of it is )

The Dead Poets fandom is a sacred place abd it's not being overcome by 'shallow white girls' ( because everything a teenage girl likes has to be annoying and stupid ).

You do not become a more profound person by making hate posts all day. Makes you look extremely pathetic.

#dead poets society #taylor swift #the tortured poets department #I'm not saying she is the biggest saint out there #And don't start with the carbon emissions #she wasn't even in the top 10 in 2023 #some of you need pills for your narcissism

[badass-queer-couples-battle]

Gay wrongs tournament, round 2 of the minor bracket

Propaganda:

For Lord Hater and Commander Peepers :

Lord Hater is the self-proclaimed "universe's awesomest evil-doer", an immature, attention-seeking manchild with electric powers and a short temper. He rules the Hater Empire with Commander Peepers as his second-in-command (technically third, after his beloved pet spider-xenomorph, but who's counting), however it soon becomes *very* clear that the cunning, remorseless, hardworking Peepers is the *real* brains behind the empire. Peepers might be frustrated at Hater's incompetence at times and isn't above manipulating him to reach an end goal, but he'd never dream of usurping him because, well, he's really gay and in love with him (as much as he can be in an early-10s Disney cartoon, anyways). Hater might take Peepers for granted a lot of times, but as his oldest friend and closest confidante he's the one who Hater is closest to. Whether it's invading other planets or kicking puppies for fun, these two are *delightfully* terrible jerks and the epitome of gay wrongs. 

Commander Peepers is both Lord Hater's right hand man in villainy AND his jilted stay-at-home-wife-guy (Also in villainy. Hater is really good at getting distracted from productive and efficient villaining.) Lord Hater was the greatest villain in the galaxy thanks to how well he and Commander Peepers worked as an evil team to run the Hater Empire!

Lord Hater conquers planets and is such an edgy bastard. Peepers is the actual brains behind the operation. Peepers is often pushed aside by Hater, they are besties and yet Peepers is always pining for this guy who will never notice. Peepers is so horribly gay for him if you watch the show he wants his stupid boss so bad. Peepers is so scared of him season 1 but then starts yelling BACK in season 2 and has to deal with him like a babysitter or something and yet STILL idolizes him and that’s just such a fun dynamic. His password is H8RNP33PRS43VR (Hater and Peepers forever). They are so evil and everyone fears them and they are villains and they are gay and the side of the fandom that draws them as a married couple that needs counseling is absolutely correct. The fanart of Hater openly liking him back is wonderful but I swear you don’t even need that. They are so gay and villain you have to love them they are

Villains that conquer planets and do evil stuff, my favourite characters, not really canon but they are the best :)

For El Mariana x Slimecicle:

They are married and on their first day together they accidentally killed their neighbor's kid.  When Slimecicle was trying to murder people and failed it because he didn't have Mariana by his side to back him up.

Well Slimecicle's canonically murdered a child/egg in order to give his and Mariana's daughter a gun. He also accidentally murdered his niece but that wasn't really his fault. Mariana has killed their daughter twice - the first time they were able to bring her back via a court trial and Slimecicle planted tnt under the court in case he lost. Mostly it's Slimecicle committing astrocities (like when he tried to kill more kids after his daughter died the first time, or when he constantly breaks windows in order to get into people's houses, or when he disguised himself as a child/egg in order to burgle his neighbours and proceeded to run for president as this child) but Mariana doesn't exactly have a clear conscience. Also they both love and hate each other. They're simultaneously married and divorced. They've had live minecraft sex at least twice.

#minor bracket round 2 #qsmp #wander over yonder #lord hater #commander peepers #el mariana #slimecicle

[ceterisparibus116]

Hey. Why do you think Karen Page is a character people seem to hate so much? I’m fairly new to the fandom and I’ve seen people even badmouthing the actress as well, which is awful. I am curious to know what you think about it.

Welcome to the fandom! 💖 I'm so excited for you and I'm super happy that, despite being newish, you're interacting like this. (It took me an embarrassing amount of time to be brave enough to send asks to people lol.)

Also, this is such an interesting question.

I want to address the attacks against Deborah Ann Woll first. No matter how anyone feels about a character, it's absolutely despicable to attack the actor over it. Most of the attacks I've seen have been about her looks, or about her acting abilities. It's fine to critique acting abilities, but looks should be off the table. But even the critiques of her acting abilities aren't actually critiques - they're just, like you said, badmouthing, with little to no analysis. To me, that indicates that they're hating on the actress just because they're emotional (angry or annoyed) over the character.

So why do people get so emotional over Karen?

I think the easiest explanation is: ship wars. Some people struggle to enjoy their favorite ship without tearing down competitor ships. And since Karedevil is one of the few ships that was actually canon (albeit temporarily, but S3 ended with them being pretty flirty again), Karen becomes a huge target.

Another explanation is that Karen appears to be written inconsistently. Personally, I don't think she actually is (except perhaps in The Punisher; I'm not sure because I've only seen S1 of The Punisher). The argument goes: "She loves Daredevil until she finds out Daredevil is Matt, and then she treats it like an addiction, despite being supportive of Frank."

The counter-argument, to me, is clear: she still loves Daredevil, but she hates being lied to and put on a pedestal. Matt did both of those things. Frank (for the most part) did neither of those things. Her issue is with Matt, not Daredevil (which she makes explicitly clear in S3E1, but people still apparently confused on this point). With that in mind, I think she's written consistently in an incredibly nuanced way.

Another explanation is that Karen is a character who doesn't learn from her mistakes. She's rash and reckless and she lies just as much as Matt, and more often than not, people end up dead because of it. Ben is the most obvious and chilling example. Yet even after her actions get Ben killed, and she expresses serious guilt and remorse, she continues to do the same thing. That makes people wonder: is she stupid? Or, worse: was her guilt and remorse only an expression of her personal grief, and not actually the result of evaluating her actions affected Ben?

This, to me, is the most fair critique of Karen, and I sympathize with people who dislike her because of it. I will point out, however, that Matt and Foggy also repeat the same mistakes. It's obvious with Matt; it's talked about less often with Foggy, but I roll my eyes every time he acts like Matt and Karen are being reckless for wanting to operate outside the law - despite the fact that every time they limit their plans to operating inside the law, people end up dead. This makes me wonder: is Foggy stupid? Or does he simply care more about keeping Matt and Karen alive (and out of jail) than he cares about other people dying?

The actual explanation, I think, is that Daredevil is a show about very flawed and surprisingly realistic characters. People rarely shake off old habits and bad ways of thinking quickly. No matter how many times you tell a person that their friends are there for them, they (like Matt) may continue to push people away if that's their coping mechanism. No matter how many times you tell a person to ask for help before doing something alone, they (like Karen) may continue to go rogue if that gives them some feeling of control over their lives. No matter how many times you tell a person that the systems they want to trust are broken, they (like Foggy) may continue insisting that everyone should trust the system if they continue seeing the world through a lens of privilege.

Can it be frustrating to watch? Absolutely. Is it a good reason to hate a character? I'd say no, but I guess that's more subjective. Is it a reminder to all of us to be gentle and patient both with ourselves and with other people when we find ourselves making the same mistakes over and over? I hope so!

I've said before that I sometimes feel self-conscious over the fact that, in my longer stories, a character's growth is rarely linear. It's usually what I think of as a spiral. They make a mistake, they learn from it...and then the stakes rise, and so they fall back on that old mistake again, since it's comfortable and familiar, rather than trying a new approach. Or the character tries to blend the old mistake with the new approach, to varying degrees of success. Sometimes I worry that this feels repetitive, or like the character isn't learning.

But from the comments I've received, people seem to appreciate it more often than not. They resonate with it and relate to it.

So now that I think of it...maybe the root problem is simply that Daredevil doesn't have author's notes telling us why Karen (and Foggy and Matt) are making the same mistake again. 😅

Or maybe people are more compassionate towards characters in fanfiction than on TV? Or maybe people are more compassionate towards the main character than the side character? Or maybe it's misogyny? Or maybe people are just less compassionate towards Karen in particular because she threatens their favorite ship.

Aaaaand this post has come full circle.

#karen page #matt murdock #foggy nelson #daredevil #karedevil #meta #asks #ask me things i'm friendly

[bohemian-nights]

How do Targies unironically praise T@rgaryen blood purity like legit white supremacists and then deny there's any racism there?? Please make it make sense

Honestly liking the Targaryens isn’t the problem(and at this point, I'm pretty sure we all like a Targaryen or two).

Yeah, they undoubtedly have some bad views as a whole, but as long as you acknowledge that their views are an allegory for real issues that’s fine.

We aren’t necessarily defined by the fiction we consume.

However, these fans outright taking on white supremacist talking points about blood supremacy and blood purity with 100% sincerity and then being confused as to why people are calling them racist is a mind trip.

If all you are getting from the books is how special and magical the Targaryen’s are and how they must keep the bloodline pure, how outsiders dirty the blood, and then use that to degrade and mock characters(and harass their fans) who aren’t silver-haired with purple eyes then yeah, you’re a fucking racist.

GRRM is admittedly not the best at handling race(or even certain female characters). He’s an old white man and it shows, but even he didn’t create this universe for you guys to spout out this crap. You are supposed to question things like feudalism and Targaryen exceptionalism not uphold it.

Nettles is a prime example of this, but they want to say she’s Daemon’s kid, or unquestionably Valyrian, and how she’s irrelevant since she’s Black(not to mention deny the racism she faces in the text as well as outside of it) rather than admit that maybe your blood, your gender(she’s a woman too but they always seem to forget that), your social economic status, your race does not define you. You and your actions do.

That all being said, I do think the Targaryen ideology is what attracts people to the house in the first place, but they won’t admit this because that means they have to confront their own biases.

If Targaryen ideology is harmful and you agree with it wholeheartedly what does that make you? How do you view people who are different than you? Who do you view as beneath you? How do you treat people who you view as lesser than you?

Yes this is all fictional, but the language being used is very much based on how they feel about certain groups in real life.

Look I’ve seen people straight up say things like there are too many Black people on HOTD and that the only in-canon Black character should be cut because they’ve met their quota and then cry that they are being (rightfully) called racists.

I’ve seen people say that since Daemon rejected a white woman(Alys) who they view as better than her(Nettles) he would for sure never touch Nettles’ with a ten-foot pole much less love her in a romantic capacity and then cry that they are now being called a racist.

I’ve seen people purposely reduce characters solely down to their race and then cry that they are now being called a racist.

I’ve seen people harass and stalk actual Black fans and then cry and say that they are being bullied when we call them out for it.

I’ve seen people outright use racial slurs then the fanbase brushes that aside to say that the racism is limited to just a few individuals when many of these same people are using the previous arguments and treat real-life fans like crap.

Racism isn't limited to saying I hate n-words and wanting to commit acts of violence upon us.

It’s easier to say you aren’t a racist than to deal with the very real possibility that you are a part of the problem. That you treat people(including fictional characters) who don’t look like you like absolute shit because of something as stupid as the color of their skin. That you view them as so beneath you that we don’t deserve basic respect.

It should be noted that Targaryren fans aren't the only racists in this fandom especially when it comes to Black characters/fans, but they are the most outright hostile to the point where it is utterly ridiculous when they say they aren't racist.

But what do I know? I’m just a crazy hating ass bitch who’s out of her depth and who should shut her trap…

#bnask #bnasks #ASOIAF #I see them trying to hide their hands now but it really is too late #y’all talked too much and showed your whole ass #house of the dragon #hotd #got #ASOIAF fandom #anti asoiaf fandom #fire & blood

[utilitycaster]

Hi I’m a new critter and I love your account and both your meta and your takes on “drama” I genuinely want to know (if you don’t mind saying of course) what you consider to be the most egregious, bad faith cr take that you’ve ever seen. I just like reading your criticism because it’s both incredibly articulate and smart but also very satisfying

Hi anon,

Thank you! I do have to say this is a difficult question with a boring answer but I'll give you a tangential one as well to make up for it.

Obviously, the misogyny and death threats in C1 are the worst! Anything that rises to the combination of structural oppression and literal death threats is going to be the worst, even before you factor in how utterly tiny the stakes were here (and, frankly, you shouldn't factor that in; doesn't matter what the cause is, big or small! Do not send death threats!)

The reason I tend not to talk about that is because there's very little to say. It's misogynistic death threats. That's awful, inexcusable, and dangerous in any context. But if someone doesn't understand how terrible this is, I don't think I can say anything to add to that.

Anyway because that was true, but obvious and not terribly revealing, I have been thinking a lot about mean-spiritedness in the fandom and I'll talk about that here. It's something I try to be cognizant of, because here's the thing: I talk a lot of shit. I'm aware I talk a lot of shit. There's many reasons why I talk a lot of shit. But I do try very hard not to be mean-spirited. I think there is a very clear distinction between criticism, even harsh criticism, of things you don't like, whether it's in execution, concept, or they just aren't to your taste; and mean-spiritedness, which is much more based in a desire to do harm to others.

I think again the example I've mentioned recently of people harassing Liam until he took a song off a Caleb character playlist is the pinnacle. This doesn't have any real goal re: criticism - it doesn't address an issue with the character nor the narrative and the only personal preference it reveals is "I, a random fan, don't like that this song was used in this context" which is not really relevant and you can skip it. Harassment is never justified, and even behavior that skirted harassment really served only to be a dick to Liam. It didn't have a single result other than "Liam takes the song off and feels kind of bad for a while," which I suspect was in fact the goal for most people, and that's pretty abhorrent.

Harsh criticism is not necessarily constructive, but it is with the intent to reveal - either a personal preference, or what you believe to be a flaw (structural, thematic, etc) within the story. It might not have a goal - personal preference really is just "I don't like this guy" and that's fine. Mean-spiritedness, however, exists just to spew bile and do harm.

So the following (most of which are paraphrased, but all are things I've personally seen on Tumblr alone, and nearly all are from the last year or so) aren't per se the most egregious or bad-faith takes, but they are absolutely mean-spirited. They have all destroyed my estimation of the people saying them for the most part beyond repair, and in many cases, if they have not hurt my estimation of the ship or character they were intending to support, they have certainly increased my estimation of the things they were intending to oppose. (And it goes without saying: any harassment - any - is automatically mean-spirited).

"I hope Fjord and Jester have divorced [author's note: they were not married] and I hope it hurt."

"I hope Caleb and that floaty fuck have broken up by the solstice."

"I hate Ashton, and Campaign 3 wouldn't be any different if they weren't there."

"My wishlist for this episode is that Chetney hits on Fearne and Ashton cockblocks him"

"I hope Fearne makes that robot eat his stupid coin"

"I'm not surprised that Yasha missed, because Yasha is bad at everything."

"Funny how Vex goes against her husband but does everything that Keyleth says" [Author's note: later proved to be hilariously untrue]

"No one cares about Travis's characters."

"Oh, Liam meant that Essek's own guilt would still exist by 'It won't help the inside?' I thought he was just being a fucking twat."

I think some people go into fandom not because they want to talk about characters, but because they see it as an opportunity to hit someone. I think some people believe they are entitled to a "win" (not normal to want nor possible to achieve and often less about the story and more about the fandom agreeing with them) and will engage in any tactic no matter how underhanded if they don't think they're getting it. That's what mean-spiritedness is in the end. It's not a single opinion, and often it goes under the radar compared to more stupid but less clearly unpleasant takes - a lot of the above didn't result in a ton of discourse because most people see these and rightfully go "oh that person is a tar pit" and block them - but it's certainly, outside of bigotry (which is also frequently also mean-spirited) - the most bad-faith approach to fandom on the whole.

#answered #Anonymous #cr discourse #cr tag

[sgiandubh]

I am not a shipper, just not what I see when I look at all I have seen over the years. However, I am truly appalled at the amount of Sam hate I see on so many Tumblr blogs. I don't understand why anyone would follow his career and map out every move he makes if they hate him so much. Their criticism of his acting is always the same, but I would bet none of them has ever done any acting or knows how actors train and prepare. It just makes me wonder what brought them here in the first place. I would never waste so much time and effort on an actor I don't like. Makes zero sense to me.

Also seems to me that everyone in this fandom has decided what they think/believe and cannot seem to have a normal discussion or disagreement at all. Believe what you want- I have no hate for anyone myself. I just come here for fun and to follow two actors I really like. I am sure Sam and Caitriona really never intended all this chaos when they took these roles.

Dear Not a Shipper Anon,

I hope you know, by the time I answer you, that you landed on an ultra shipper page and I also hope you can live with this detail. Barely joking, here - and yes, I decided to give you space and a short answer, because even if non shippers believe I am either a totally retarded, brainless idiot or (at a minimum) the devil incarnate, I am still open to different POVs than mine, as long as they are politely expressed.

If you do not 'see' them together, that is strictly your problem and loss. We, as a group, do not 'see' it either: we know they are together, have been so for a very long time, and still managed to make the relationship work, despite a long list of ehrm, oddities that would seem unacceptable to many. Among us, chances are we do not agree on everything, yet the essential is we all know they are not just co-stars, but so much more (lovers, partners, parents come to mind).

You are correct. I think it would be impossible for you to change my mind about it, as I have no intention of changing yours. We already entered Year Eleven of this saga and by now any dialogue between Antis and Shippers is completely impossible. Also, I am not very friendly towards 'shippers on the fence', who usually follow/share and comment also on the more prominent Anti blogs (BCAC, CRT, Moo, Purv). These people are usually blocked, because I simply can't with stupidity and lack of integrity rolled into one.

So yes, there is a lot of hate. Directed mostly towards S, because he is (and will always be) the main object of desire in this very feminine fandom. And make no mistake: all the women hating S desire him. Deeply. Impossibly. This and also simply being nasty people IRL - I can easily think of one or two legit Fascists, but will control my anger and refuse to name names. Last, but not least, I am going to tell you a secret, Anon: they are not very bright, either. Parochial fools, which I suggest you ignore.

I am sure S & C never knew what they were up to when they took this once in a lifetime opportunity. And I am also positively convinced they had no idea it would last for so long. I can only hope they have, by now, all the support they can use. For all the rest, they have each other.

The picture below has absolutely nothing to do with my answer to you, but I have promised @robinshill a picture I took in the Old City of Kashgar showing its savage destruction by the Chinese bulldozers. If that was the situation in June 2010, I can only imagine it now. Imagine and weep.

#Anon #fandom

[just-promise-me-jm]

An essay no one asked for

It was a long stressful day today so when I was taking a break from work I decided to do a quick scroll through social media to see what had been going on today.

Unsurprisingly, I almost immediately came across a number of posts trying to shade Jimin or make fun of his fans along with the typical "fuck solos" type narratives that seem so popular these days. All I really wanted to see were cute pictures of Jimin on his way to Hungary or hear some theories on what he might be doing there.

In fact, here is a cute Jimin pic to thank you for taking the time to even read the rest of this:

credit to @UpdateParkJimin

So here is a short list of a few of the things I saw just today:

Jimin is obviously copying JK by going to film something in Hungary (such a stupid theory and I saw someone post that Seventeen actually went there first)

Jimin isn't as popular as JK because he didn't get mobbed by his fans (tbh they seemed very well behaved and I was proud that they didn't act like absolute fools and put Jimin in danger)

Jimin and the remaining members should just shave their heads already and go to the military so that we can get the promised 2025 reunion (absolute nonsense and a highly problematic take)

Solos are the worst and should be eradicated from the fandom (just because you are a solo it doesn't make you toxic, just like being an ARMY doesn't mean you are a good person)

Obviously I'm sure there is a lot more than that but that is all I had the pleasure of seeing on my break. Now most of these aren't totally new, just the same story with a different font, but it doesn't make it any more fun each time they go around. I could go into detail on any of these but to be honest most of them are so shallow and stupid that it's not even worth bothering.

What I really want to focus on today is the narrative that solos are toxic and something that needs to be removed from fandom spaces. The reality is that almost everyone in the fandom has a self-professed bias that they proudly display in their bio or profile pic. Even if they have a tiny seven somewhere in there, it doesn't make that fact any less true. I think it's natural to be more drawn to one person, one type of food, one pair of shoes, etc. as your favorite and it's incredibly rare that anyone can honestly say that they "love everyone equally" (even if it's your mom saying she doesn't have a favorite child, I don't believe her).

Like I said above, I know that some solos are toxic just like I know some ARMY are toxic. Again, I think that unfortunately it's natural that some people are going to just be shitty people no matter what. What it really all comes down to is how you treat others and how you conduct yourself in these fandom spaces. I said this in my first post but I'll say it here again - you and I don't have to agree on everything to treat each other with respect and decency. But if you come into a space and harass others and generally act like an idiot then yea you should be barred from those spaces. Painting a whole group in broad brushstrokes, however, is not the solution.

Saying you "hate solos" (which let's be real - it's often just a thinly veiled way to hate on PJMs or other Jimin supporters) just means that you are stereotyping a whole group of people that hold a variety of beliefs, feelings and behaviors. If you see something truly problematic that someone is posting or saying do what you are supposed to do - block and report. If it's just that someone doesn't agree with you or if you have some sick obsession with Jimin and his success - do me a favor and turn off your phone for a bit. Calling other people names and harassing them because they don't think your fave is the greatest thing ever is just pathological.

We live in a really messy world and I will never understand the desire to make it messier for others by being a dick. A much better way to spend your time and energy in a fandom is to actually do the things that help support your bias - stream, buy, vote, and share them with others who might not have found them yet. Or be like me and write multiple paragraphs that people may never read in an attempt to call out some real bullshit that is going on.

If you read this, I appreciate really it 💗.

Here is another Jimin for your time:

#bts jimin #park jimin #jiminie #pjms #bts #solos #social media

[spaceagebachelormann]

Hi! I was wondering if I could request a Percy jackson x reader? Where maybe the reader tags along on a quest with Percy and the gang and maybe innitaly it’s like an enimes to lovers where he doesn’t want her to come along cause he’s afraid she’ll distract him or something? And when they’re fighting whoever (you can choose! I’m only on the second book soo 😅) but maybe she gets hurt? And Percy just goes crazy in anger because

YOU’RE SO STUPID! - PERCY JACKSON

  ੈ✩‧₊˚ FANDOM: riordanverse

  ੈ✩‧₊˚ FORMAT: long/short fic

  ੈ✩‧₊˚ WARNINGS: percy and reader are too dumb to admit their feelings <33 and annabeth and grover devise a plan to set their best friends up, a fight, bleeding, hospital room, y/n hyperventilating after seeing dried blood

  ੈ✩‧₊˚ SUMMARY: y/n finds out how much percy really likes her after she gets hurt in battle

masterlist || riordanverse masterlist || navigation

“Does she have to come?” Percy complained, dragging his feet along the sidewalk begrudgingly.

Grover rolled his eyes at his best friend, and sighed knowingly. “Yes,” He replied, wrapping an arm around Percys shoulders. “she does, Chiron specifically recommended her. And, she did save you from the opposite team in capture the flag, so try to be at least a little grateful for that.”

“She didn’t save me on purpose. Besides, she pushed me into the mud so she could get to the flag first. I hate her so much!” Percy grumbled, shoving his fists into his pockets.

Grover released Percy from his arms and walked behind him to walk with Annabeth and Y/N.

Annabeth and Grover shared a look, and immediately knew what they were going to do.

“Y/N?” Annabeth asked sickingly sweet, placing her hand on her best friends back.

“Yes?” She replied, turning her gaze towards the pretty blonde.

“Would you mind walking before me for a little while? Grover and I have…” She paused for a moment, attempting to find a good excuse, until Grover cut in for her.

“We need to talk about a birthday party we’re throwing for you really soon, and it’d be a shame if you overheard the surprise.” He smiled.

They watched as Y/Ns beautiful eyes widened at the sight of having to walk beside Percy.

“What if I walked behind?-” She started, until Annabeth shoved her into him.

“Oops.” She whispered, as she and Grover held back giggles.

Y/N crashed into Percys back, almost knocking them over, if Percy hadn’t balanced the two of them.

“Can you not do anything right? You just crashed into me.” He glared, feeling his blood boil and his breath shorten.

“Yeah, I noticed. Can you not be a jerk?” Y/N retorted, feeling her face heating up with anger.

Behind them, Grover and Annabeth watched with amusement, whispering and giggling about how cute they were.

“They’re like an old married couple.” Annabeth mummered, leaning into Grover and grinning.

Grover snorted and grinned back, coughing to cover up the sound.

Before them, Percy and Y/N continued to glare at eachother.

However, Percy was zoning out looking at the girl beside him. Her eyes were filled with so much anger and hate, they were narrowed and staring directly at him. Only him, and he was the one making her feel so angry. Nobody else, only him.

“What are you looking at?” The girl asked through gritted teeth, curling her hands into fists.

“You, unfortunately.” Percy mumbled, looking away, despite the fact he desperately didn’t want to.

Y/N turned away from him, and made sure the gap on the sidewalk between them was big enough for two pairs of Annabeths and Grovers.

Percy sneaked a quick glance at the girl beside him, and his cheeks flushed. But not from the cold or anger this time.

It might’ve been the fact it was 8 in the morning, but Y/N was absolutely glowing with beauty. Her hair was messy and hung around her face, and her nose was red from the cold winter weather, there were slight tears in her eyes, but she looked stunning.

Percys train of thought was cut off when he walked into the bus shelter.

He could hear Y/N laughing and, then the quiet thump of her falling into the snow.

They made eye contact, and Percy had only one thought about the look on her face. DAAAAMN.

“Congrats, Percy. You walked right where to needed to be. Oh, look! Here’s the bus.” Annabeth said with a teasing smile.

Grover reached his hand out for Y/N, both of them still giggling from the impact of Percys forehead and the bus shelter.

The group stood in the crowded bus, squeezed together tightly.

All Y/N could currently focus on was how close she was to Percy.

Her back was against his chest, and she could feel his breath on the back of her neck.

She was so caught up in the moment, she almost didn’t hear the urgent whisper coming from Annabeth.

“Guys!” She whisper shouted, “There’s monsters on this bus.”

The four of them all made eye contact, internally praying to whatever gods might be walking around Manhattan at the moment.

“PERCY JACKSON!” A dark, large and in charge voice boomed. “GIVE ME THE LIGHTNING BOLT!” It demanded, charging at him, pushing random civilians out of its way.

“You’ve got to be kidding me.” Percy grumbled, pushing Y/N and Grover off of him and wielding Riptide from his pocket.

“Well, get your weapons out. And, guys, let’s not explode the bus this time.”

Annabeth and Grover nodded, pulling out their weapons (whatever those may be).

The monster immediately charged towards Y/N, punching her hard in the side of the head, making her tumble back.

It only took a few seconds for Y/N to regain her balance, and she swung her weapon towards the monster, giving it a long cut down its face.

The thing, whatever it was, spun and kicked her directly in the nose.

Y/N’s eyes watered, despite the fact she hadn’t been kicked very hard.

“Y/N!” Annabeth called, finishing off her monster, “It likes to fight on its feet! Try to knock it-” the blonde didn’t get to finish her sentence when a third monster attacked her from behind.

But, Y/N understood what she meant.

The monster rolled its eyes. “Aren’t children of Athena supposed to be smart?”

Y/N raised her weapon, glaring down the monster. And, as she was about to swing, the monster knocked it out of her hands.

“You are ridiculously overpowered.” She said, fumbling in her pockets for anything else she could use.

“No, you’re just a weak little shit.” It replied, punching her as hard as it could in the diaphragm.

Y/N gasped for air, wrapping her arms around her torso, and panicked as she felt her lungs close up, making it difficult to breathe.

“Foolish girl.” The monster sneered, punching her in the jaw.

Her vision became blurry, and she could feel her lungs spasm more than they already were.

Right as she thought it couldn’t get any worse, there was a sharp pain in her chest.

Through her colourful and blurry vision, she looked down, and saw a sword planted in her chest.

Ah, she thought, i’ve been stabbed.

Y/N fell to the ground with a yell of pain.

The blood seeping from the wound only made her feel more dizzy, and she began to tremble from the struggle of not being able to breathe.

“Oh, no.” Grover leaned her against one of the abandoned seats, looking at the girl with wide eyes and a concerned face.

“You’re going to be fine, everything’s fine.” He promised with a trembling voice.

The two of them were oblivious to the fact Percy had watched the whole thing.

The last thing Y/N saw before passing out was Percy repeatedly stabbing and punching the monster.

Annabeth was shocked to see Percy so angry over Y/N being hurt. She and Grover shipped them as a joke, but to see that they were actually in love, it made her so happy! But also terrified at how feral Percy was acting.

A few minutes later, Percy was leaning over an unconscious Y/N. His eyes were wide and bloodshot, and he gently shook her shoulders.

“Y/N?” He asked with a gentle and frightened voice. “She’s not.. she can’t be, right?” Percy looked back and forth between Annabeth and Grover.

“We have to get her to a hospital right away.” Annabeth acknowledged, and turned to the bus driver.

“How far is the nearest hospital?” She asked politely.

“A-about 6 minutes, but it’s not on my route. However, I can maybe drop you off at the bus stop closest to it?” The woman suggested, voice trembling.

“Yes, please.” Grover said with a gentle but worried smile.

~

About an hour later, Y/N woke up in a hospital bed.

She felt pain in her chest, and grunted as she sat up, the bedsheets falling into her lap.

“Percy?” She asked, looking around the room.

“That must be one of the boys who brought you here, correct?” an unfamiliar voice asked.

She turned to see a doctor leaning against the door frame.

“Yes,” She said, her voice quiet and raspy. Shaking slightly, she asked, “are they still here? They didn’t leave me, did they?”

The doctor gently smiled, sitting on the end of the bed.

“Of course not,” he reassured, offering her a bottle of water. “they’re outside in the hallway, they seem very anxious, especially the boy with the black hair.”

Percy? she thought, Percy is worried about me?

She had thought he wouldn’t care if she died or not, she thought he’d probably throw a party if she did.

As she reached to accept the water bottle, she noticed the dried blood on her hands and gasped.

“Hey, calm down!” The doctor said.

She could feel her body stiffen as she desperately tried to wipe it off.

“It’s alright, it’s okay.” The man reassured, holding his hands out like he was taming a wild animal. “It’s dried, i’ll get you a cloth so we can wash it off.

Y/N nodded, tears dwelling in her pretty eyes.

The doctor handed her a wet cloth and took her hands in his, wiping them clean.

“Better?” He asked with a gentle smile.

“Can I please see my friends?” She asked meekly, after nodding.

“Alright, but be careful, the wounds still healing.”

The doctor opened the door and popped his head out, and in a few short moments, Percy burst into the room.

Y/N was shocked to see that he was crying.

“You’re okay!” He shouted, running and pulling her into a tight hug.

Before Y/N could respond, Percy kept talking.

“I was so afraid. They told us the sword went through your lungs, and there was so much blood. I thought i’d never see you again. I love you so much, I didn’t think i’d ever be able to tell you. ” He sobbed into her shoulder.

She gently wrapped her arms around him.

With her raspy voice she said, “I’m okay, everything’s okay. I love you too, I love you so much more.”

Percy pulled away from the embrace, and cupped her face with his hands.

He smiled through a tear-stained face. “You’re so stupid. So completely stupid.” He laughed.

They both leaned in, and as their lips were about to connect, they were rudely interrupted.

“Y/N!” Annabeth and Grover said in unison, going on either sides of the bed.

“How do you feel?” Grover asked, taking her right hand in his.

“It still hurts a little, but I think I’m alright.” Y/N said sincerely, offering him a gentle smile, which he returned.

“You don’t sound alright.” Annabeth retorted, gently massaging Y/Ns wrists.

“And, you got stabbed!” She added after, “It had to have hurt! Tell me everything, how excruciating was the pain?”

Annabeth looked excited to learn how it felt to be stabbed, and the other girl laughed at her eagerness.

“You’re so weird.”

The group laughed together, unaware of the fact they were missing their quest.

But, atleast they were happy.

#percy jackon and the olympians #percy jackson x reader #percy jackson #pjo #annabeth chase #grover underwood #mars writing 🧈

[a-secret-bolton-vampire]

The Last Dragon: An analysis of Rhaegar Targaryen

Originally I was going to post simply about the amount of hate Rhaegar gets from the fandom and how buck-wild it is. But then I realized it wasn't enough to just push back on, no. I have to write a character study on this guy, because there is just simply so much to address!

Rhaegar to me is one of the most fascinating and complex characters in the series, and definitely among my absolute favourites. He is quite contentious, and my goal here isn't to whitewash him necessarily, or to paint him as the ultimate hero. That's boring and antithetical to what A Song of Ice and Fire is supposed to be. Calling him purely good or purely evil is reductive and makes the story smaller. That said, I hope to address why the hate he gets is odd, and how it completely misses the point of his character.

The Dragon's Honor

A total fucking idiot that deserved to die a far more horrible death than he did. He got off lightly.

Sure. Great guy forced to abandon his wife and children to screw an incredibly stupid vapid self centered idiot in a tower for a year. After he lost his honor at Harrenhal for humiliating his pregnant wife. As for the rest perhaps if Rhaegar weren't such a psychotic ass there would actually still be Starks continuously in Winterfell which was probably the thing to keep the evil in check.

Rhaegar dumped his pregnant wife for a truly stupid 14 year old girl. Anyone who does that is not a good man. And Roberts life was actually more tragic that dear Rhaegar's. Or did you forget what happened to Robert's parents?

Rhaegar was a truly awful father. Worse than Robert. Worse than Tywin. Worse, even, than Craster (who kept half his children alive.)

These are just a select few quotes from fans I found on Reddit in discussion about who Rhaegar was as a person. I do need to clarify that most people seemed to have some kind of nuanced take. But the aggressively negative takes... are aggressively negative. In the end, however, we need to look at the text to see what kind of person he was.

Many of the POVs have had interactions with Rhaegar, which give us our best glimpse into who he was as a person. Even then, there are things that they cannot give us, and we are left with an incomplete picture of what this prince was like when he lived. Ned, Cersei, Jaime, Jon Connington, and Barristan all have met and seen Rhaegar, and we hear more from other characters about him in other POVs.

When we are introduced to Rhaegar, it is through Daenerys's POV, in her very first chapter. We will save that for later, but the next instance is in Eddard's POV, and there we see Robert's views on him.

The king touched her cheek, his fingers brushing across the rough stone as gently as if it were living flesh. "I vowed to kill Rhaegar for what he did to her." "You did," Ned reminded him.

Robert despises Rhaegar with every fiber of his being, even 15 years after he killed him. So much so that it extends to all Targaryens, even to a 14-year old Daenerys and her unborn child.

"Nonetheless," Ned said, "the murder of children … it would be vile … unspeakable …" "Unspeakable?" the king roared. "What Aerys did to your brother Brandon was unspeakable. The way your lord father died, that was unspeakable. And Rhaegar … how many times do you think he raped your sister? How many hundreds of times?" His voice had grown so loud that his horse whinnied nervously beneath him. The king jerked the reins hard, quieting the animal, and pointed an angry finger at Ned. "I will kill every Targaryen I can get my hands on, until they are as dead as their dragons, and then I will piss on their graves."

Robert was in love with Lyanna, the woman he was set to marry. In his mind, because of her kidnapping, Robert believes Rhaegar was a rapist, a monster. In The World of Ice and Fire it is stated exactly how Robert reacted to Rhaegar crowning Lyanna the queen of love and beauty.

Brandon Stark, the heir to Winterfell, had to be restrained from confronting Rhaegar at what he took as a slight upon his sister's honor, for Lyanna Stark had long been betrothed to Robert Baratheon, Lord of Storm's End. Eddard Stark, Brandon's younger brother and a close friend to Lord Robert, was calmer but no more pleased. As for Robert Baratheon himself, some say he laughed at the prince's gesture, claiming that Rhaegar had done no more than pay Lyanna her due...but those who knew him better say the young lord brooded on the insult, and that his heart hardened toward the Prince of Dragonstone from that day forth.

Yet it seems Robert is all but alone in his vilification of Rhaegar. Even Ned, whose sister was supposedly kidnapped and raped by him, doesn't think ill of him.

Suddenly, uncomfortably, he found himself recalling Rhaegar Targaryen. Fifteen years dead, yet Robert hates him as much as ever. It was a disturbing notion...

There was no answer Ned Stark could give to that but a frown. For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not.

Though Ned doesn't say much else, this line implies that Rhaegar was above visiting brothels, that he did not simply use sex for his own pleasure. In this respect, Rhaegar was quite honourable, which is how most characters remember him. Jorah compares Rhaegar and his younger brother Viserys with a marked contrast.

She shivered. "I woke the dragon, didn't I?" Ser Jorah snorted. "Can you wake the dead, girl? Your brother Rhaegar was the last dragon, and he died on the Trident. Viserys is less than the shadow of a snake."

When Daenerys puts an end to the raping of the Lhazareen, Jorah, again, favourably compares her to Rhaegar.

"As you command." The knight gave her a curious look. "You are your brother's sister, in truth." "Viserys?" She did not understand. "No," he answered. "Rhaegar." He galloped off.

"I am not Viserys." "No," he admitted. "There is more of Rhaegar in you, I think, but even Rhaegar could be slain. Robert proved that on the Trident, with no more than a warhammer. Even dragons can die."

Not only is Daenerys's empathy, kindness, and honour compared to Rhaegar's, she is considered to have the same talent for military strategy as him by both Jorah and Barristan.

"Just so," she agreed. "I think we should attack from three sides. Grey Worm, your Unsullied shall strike at them from right and left, while my kos lead my horse in wedge for a thrust through their center. Slave soldiers will never stand before mounted Dothraki." She smiled. "To be sure, I am only a young girl and know little of war. What do you think, my lords?" "I think you are Rhaegar Targaryen's sister," Ser Jorah said with a rueful half smile. "Aye," said Arstan Whitebeard, "and a queen as well."

In general, Jorah and Barristan constantly praise his honour, bravery, and finding him to be nothing like his father Aerys or his brother Viserys.

"Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died."

"Prince Viserys was only a boy, it would have been years before he was fit to rule, and . . . forgive me, my queen, but you asked for truth . . . even as a child, your brother Viserys oft seemed to be his father's son, in ways that Rhaegar never did."

If he had not gone into Duskendale to rescue Aerys from Lord Darklyn's dungeons, the king might well have died there as Tywin Lannister sacked the town. Then Prince Rhaegar would have ascended the Iron Throne, mayhaps to heal the realm. Duskendale had been his finest hour, yet the memory tasted bitter on his tongue. It was his failures that haunted him at night, though. Jaehaerys, Aerys, Robert. Three dead kings. Rhaegar, who would have been a finer king than any of them. Princess Elia and the children. Aegon just a babe, Rhaenys with her kitten. Dead, every one, yet he still lived, who had sworn to protect them. And now Daenerys, his bright shining child queen. She is not dead. I will not believe it.

Even Tywin, someone who cared about prestige but could not be called honourable, believed that Rhaegar would've made a better king than Aerys.

Most of the small council were with the Hand outside Duskendale at this juncture, and several of them argued against Lord Tywin's plan on the grounds that such an attack would almost certainly goad Lord Darklyn into putting King Aerys to death. "He may or he may not," Tywin Lannister reportedly replied, "but if he does, we have a better king right here." Whereupon he raised a hand to indicate Prince Rhaegar.

Barristan tells Daenerys that not only was Rhaegar honourable, he was immensely capable and talented.

"I know little of Rhaegar. Only the tales Viserys told, and he was a little boy when our brother died. What was he truly like?" The old man considered a moment. "Able. That above all. Determined, deliberate, dutiful, single-minded. There is a tale told of him . . . but doubtless Ser Jorah knows it as well."

Rhaegar was also considered a very skilled warrior, but according to Barristan it was not out of joy.

"Prince Rhaegar's prowess was unquestioned, but he seldom entered the lists. He never loved the song of swords the way that Robert did, or Jaime Lannister. It was something he had to do, a task the world had set him. He did it well, for he did everything well. That was his nature. But he took no joy in it. Men said that he loved his harp much better than his lance."

This is a curious thing to remember for later. Rhaegar was not a born fighter, nor was he eager for glory it seemed. He was quite content with being a singer and musician, a private man who loved to read and learn about prophecy. The picture painted is of an honourable, kind, talented, and dutiful man who won people over with ease.

Yet it appears that Rhaegar was perhaps at odds with his family. His relationship with Rhaella and Viserys is not noted upon in the text, but that of his father Aerys is remarked on extensively, and began to fracture after the Defiance of Duskendale.

Once safely returned to King's Landing, His Grace refused to leave the Red Keep for any cause and remained a virtual prisoner in his own castle for the next four years, during which time he grew ever more wary of those around him, Tywin Lannister in particular. His suspicions extended even to his own son and heir. Prince Rhaegar, he was convinced, had conspired with Tywin Lannister to have him slain at Duskendale. They had planned to storm the town walls so that Lord Darklyn would put him to death, opening the way for Rhaegar to mount the Iron Throne and marry Lord Tywin's daughter.

Aerys found ways to insult Rhaegar, such as when he was present for Rhaegar and Elia's firstborn child being shown to the court and refusing to hold her because she "smells Dornish." His madness was apparent to everyone at court, and surely to Rhaegar. There became a clear division at court between Aerys' followers and Rhaegar's followers.

To Grand Maester Pycelle and Lord Owen Merryweather, the King's Hand, fell the unenviable task of keeping peace between these factions, even as their rivalry grew ever more venomous. In a letter to the Citadel, Pycelle wrote that the divisions within the Red Keep reminded him uncomfortably of the situation before the Dance of the Dragons a century before, when the enmity between Queen Alicent and Princess Rhaenyra had split the realm in two, to grievous cost. A similarly bloody conflict might await the Seven Kingdoms once again, he warned, unless some accord could be reached that would satisfy both Prince Rhaegar's supporters and the king's.

If Rhaegar was as learned as people say he was, then he was smart enough to know this as well. And this is why Rhaegar may have tried to find a more peaceful solution to remove Aerys from power. It is mentioned in The World of Ice and Fire that the great tourney at Harrenhal was hosted behind the scenes by Rhaegar for this exact reason.

If this tale be believed, 'twas Prince Rhaegar who urged Lord Walter to hold the tourney, using his lordship's brother Ser Oswell as a gobetween. Rhaegar provided Whent with gold sufficient for splendid prizes in order to bring as many lords and knights to Harrenhal as possible. The prince, it is said, had no interest in the tourney as a tourney; his intent was to gather the great lords of the realm together in what amounted to an informal Great Council, in order to discuss ways and means of dealing with the madness of his father, King Aerys II, possibly by means of a regency or a forced abdication.

It's not just the world book that says this. The main series all but confirms it in a flashback of Jaime's, from right before the Battle of the Trident.

"Your Grace," Jaime had pleaded, "let Darry stay to guard the king this once, or Ser Barristan. Their cloaks are as white as mine." Prince Rhaegar shook his head. "My royal sire fears your father more than he does our cousin Robert. He wants you close, so Lord Tywin cannot harm him. I dare not take that crutch away from him at such an hour." Jaime's anger had risen up in his throat. "I am not a crutch. I am a knight of the Kingsguard." "Then guard the king," Ser Jon Darry snapped at him. "When you donned that cloak, you promised to obey." Rhaegar had put his hand on Jaime's shoulder. "When this battle's done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but . . . well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return."

It's quite clear that Rhaegar was actively trying to avoid war in the first place, instead finding more diplomatic and peaceful ways to resolve such matters. He knew that his father was dangerous, and had plans to deal with him. The fact he wanted to call a great council to remove him meant that he was going to avoid more direct and quicker actions such as kinslaying and costly matters, and cared about optics and doing things through the proper channels.

"The Others take your honor!" Robert swore. "What did any Targaryen ever know of honor? Go down into your crypt and ask Lyanna about the dragon's honor!"

Robert Baratheon believed that Rhaegar had no honour, that he was a cheat, a brute, a rapist. Ironically, all things Robert is. But Robert is alone in believing this. Through his actions, and what others remember of him, Rhaegar did in fact have honour. The dragon's honour was notable to all, and was part of why people were drawn to him so easily.

Smoke and Salt, A Bleeding Star, A Promised Prince

Rhaegar wasn't always the gallant prince he is remembered as. That warrior once beloved by all was at first a quiet boy, buried deep in scrolls and writings.

"As a young boy, the Prince of Dragonstone was bookish to a fault. He was reading so early that men said Queen Rhaella must have swallowed some books and a candle whilst he was in her womb. Rhaegar took no interest in the play of other children. The maesters were awed by his wits, but his father's knights would jest sourly that Baelor the Blessed had been born again. Until one day Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him. No one knows what it might have been, only that the boy suddenly appeared early one morning in the yard as the knights were donning their steel. He walked up to Ser Willem Darry, the master-at-arms, and said, 'I will require sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior.'"

Whatever Rhaegar found, it had a major impact on him, to change trajectory so drastically. Something that he was absolutely convinced of its validity. Rhaegar is put forward both out of and in universe as a candidate for the messianic prince that was promised, and it appears this is exactly what Rhaegar read in his scrolls. Not only that, but Rhaegar was in contact with his great-grand uncle, Maester Aemon, and he believed that Rhaegar also was the prince that was promised.

"No one ever looked for a girl," he said. "It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it." Just talking of her seemed to make him stronger. "I must go to her. I must. Would that I was even ten years younger."

Rhaegar then changed his tune, and believed Aegon was the prince that was promised, which is noted in the vision Dany has of him in the House of the Undying.

Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother's hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. "Aegon," he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. "What better name for a king?" "Will you make a song for him?" the woman asked. "He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads." He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.

There is much and more we do not know of this, as we are fed only the barest scraps, so this is analysis is admittedly quite speculative. "The dragon has three heads" is a repeated phrase, and Jorah compares it to the sigil of House Targaryen, created to symbolize Aegon, Rhaenys, and Visenya when they conquered Westeros. As such, he and Daenerys believe that because Dany hatched three dragons, each head of the dragon is a dragonrider. But in Rhaegar's time there were no dragons. It's possible he read scrolls about the dragons returning (as Aerys I did) but we can't be certain. What it actually means is not of importance here, but rather what Rhaegar thought it meant.

Recently we learned George is on record as saying that Aegon the Conqueror was a dreamer, and that it was what drove him to conquer Westeros. The dream was of the Long Night, and Aegon wanted to unify Westeros to be prepared for this existential threat. The fact "the dragon has three heads" is tied to the prince that was promised, and the new Westerosi banner of the Targaryens was a three headed dragon is not som ething to easily dismiss. Though House of the Dragon isn't book canon, it's got the best insight into what it might mean.

According to Viserys, the dream Aegon had was given a name; the song of ice and fire. Is this what Rhaegar is referring to? Aegon's dream? It might make sense. According to Ryan Condal, this plot point is going to come out at some point, which implies this will be revealed in the main plot. Was Aegon's dream written down as Daenys's were, but kept secret, locked away somewhere, their significance forgotten? Perhaps even the fact it was from Aegon was not a certainty? We can't know, but it would explain a few things.

Alternatively, the song of ice and fire was from a different source, such as the Rhoynish legend of the Long Night.

Lomas Longstrider, in his Wonders Made by Man, recounts meeting descendants of the Rhoynar in the ruins of the festival city of Chroyane who have tales of a darkness that made the Rhoyne dwindle and disappear, her waters frozen as far south as the joining of the Selhoru. According to these tales, the return of the sun came only when a hero convinced Mother Rhoyne's many children—lesser gods such as the Crab King and the Old Man of the River—to put aside their bickering and join together to sing a secret song that brought back the day.

The secret song of the Rhoynish may be the song of ice and fire, and given Rhaegar's wife Elia was a descendant of the Rhoynar it may have influenced his thinking. Yet this still does not answer what Rhaegar believed the three heads of the dragon meant. His firstborn daughter was named Rhaenys, and his firstborn son was named Aegon, two names of the conquerors. However, it doesn't make much sense that he was actually trying to recreate the original three heads. Visenya was the oldest, Rhaenys the youngest, so why wasn't she named Visenya?

Another theory is that Rhaegar was obsessed with naming one of his sons Aegon, but again, we have no indication of this. All the vision says is that Aegon is a good name for a king, and since he was Rhaegar's heir and Rhaegar was Aerys's. So of course he expected him to be king, and Aegon is the most common name for Targaryen kings. The idea that he felt he needed to have a son named Aegon no matter what seems like a gross misreading of what he's saying in the vision.

Rhaegar was called "the last dragon." From a literary standpoint, one can draw a line between the mention of "last dragon" and "the dragon's three heads." If this is true, Rhaegar was the dragon, and his children were the three heads. Mentioning Aegon as the prince that was promised and saying "there must be one more" points to this. If he was no longer the prince that was promised, then he may have wanted to focus more on preparing his children for the coming return of the Others and the War for the Dawn.

Another consideration to take in is the manner of Rhaegar's birth. He was born during the tragedy of Summerhall, where King Aegon V gathered his family to do a ritual to hatch dragon eggs. Instead, something went horribly wrong, and instead the palace burnt. The only survivors (that we know of) were Jaehaerys, Aerys, and Rhaella. Rhaella was pregnant at the time, and as the inferno reduced the palace to a hollowed, smoking husk, she gave birth to Rhaegar.

Jaehaerys II is an interesting figure to say the least. He was very much conservative compared to Aegon V's more progressive approach to Targaryen politics. Aegon wanted to do away with the tradition of incest, but Jaehaerys went ahead and married his sister Shaera, also breaking a betrothal with a Tully girl. One of Aegon's other sons, Prince Duncan, married the peasant girl Jenny of Oldstones. Jenny's best friend was a woods witch, and she may have had pertinent information on the prince that was promised, as Barristan tells Daenerys when talking about why her parents married.

"Why did they wed if they did not love each other?" "Your grandsire commanded it. A woods witch had told him that the prince was promised would be born of their line." "A woods witch?" Dany was astonished. "She came to court with Jenny of Oldstones. A stunted thing, grotesque to look upon. A dwarf, most people said, though dear to Lady Jenny, who always claimed that she was one of the children of the forest."

Rhaegar is far from the only one who was driven by prophecy, it would seem. If Barristan knew this, it's almost certain that Rhaegar did as well. This may have contributed to him believing he was the promised prince.

Rhaegar's birth had a profound impact on him. Though he was loved by all, those close to him knew that he was a melancholy person, and he was known to have visited the ruins of Summerhall.

"He was born in grief, my queen, and that shadow hung over him all his days." Viserys had spoken of Rhaegar's birth only once. Perhaps the tale saddened him too much. "It was the shadow of Summerhall that haunted him, was it not?" "Yes. And yet Summerhall was the place the prince loved best. He would go there from time to time, with only his harp for company. Even the knights of the Kingsguard did not attend him there. He liked to sleep in the ruined hall, beneath the moon and stars, and whenever he came back he would bring a song. When you heard him play his high harp with the silver strings and sing of twilights and tears and the death of kings, you could not but feel that he was singing of himself and those he loved."

Being born during a great tragedy is sure to have a big impact on someone. The ritual to hatch the dragon eggs failed, and countless lost their lives. It's no surprise something like that would leave one with a belief that this had to have happened for a reason, that their survival meant something. So him latching onto prophecy may have been one way of dealing with the trauma.

But another thing to note is that Rhaegar went alone. Entirely alone. Not even with the Kingsguard. All he brought was his harp. Summerhall was his quiet place where he could focus and be creative about his true passion; song. The woods witch who was a friend of Jenny's appears later in the main series, where she is said to have "gorge on grief" at Summerhall. One of her favourite songs that she always wants played to her is Jenny's song, of her dear friend she lost. Rhaegar could very well have met up with the witch and learned more about the prophecy from her. He may have even been the one who wrote Jenny's song.

As we've established, Rhaegar was not one eager for praise and glory. Fighting and war was not his passion, but a duty he felt had to be bestowed upon him by fate. His true love was for song and reading, for romance and love. I strongly believe he did not follow this prophecy out of ego, but rather to fill a part of his heart that was missing from Summerhall. He gave up on his own interests to fulfill a destiny he felt was preordained to him, to try to prepare to save the world from the complete annihilation of light and warmth and life. He was a doomed figure, whose destiny was only ever going to end in tragedy, yet he tried all the same.

Duty and Honour

Thus far I've been rather positive about Rhaegar. He has many positive qualities to him, and he appears to have been a good man who tried to do what he felt was necessary for the betterment of the world. But this is A Song of Ice and Fire. Characters are rarely that perfect and good. As noble as Rhaegar may have been, he was also human, imperfect and flawed, did good and bad things, and had passions that led to tragedy for many in Westeros.

Rhaegar did not marry Elia out of love. It was duty. After the failure to find a bride of pure Valyrian blood for him to marry in Essos, and the plan for Elia marrying Jaime Lannister dying with Joanna, Rhaegar eventually married Elia. Elia is noted as being frail and had many health issues, but was sweet and kind and witty. Their relationship has not been fully realized, but the little we do know paints it as a complex one.

"Princess Elia was there, his wife, and yet my brother gave the crown to the Stark girl, and later stole her away from her betrothed. How could he do that? Did the Dornish woman treat him so ill?" "It is not for such as me to say what might have been in your brother's heart, Your Grace. The Princess Elia was a good and gracious lady, though her health was ever delicate." Dany pulled the lion pelt tighter about her shoulders. "Viserys said once that it was my fault, for being born too late." She had denied it hotly, she remembered, going so far as to tell Viserys that it was his fault for not being born a girl. He beat her cruelly for that insolence. "If I had been born more timely, he said, Rhaegar would have married me instead of Elia, and it would all have come out different. If Rhaegar had been happy in his wife, he would not have needed the Stark girl."

"Her duty." The word felt cold upon her tongue. "You saw my brother Rhaegar wed. Tell me, did he wed for love or duty?" The old knight hesitated. "Princess Elia was a good woman, Your Grace. She was kind and clever, with a gentle heart and a sweet wit. I know the prince was very fond of her." Fond, thought Dany. The word spoke volumes. I could become fond of Hizdahr zo Loraq, in time. Perhaps.

George described their relationship similarly as "complex." The two did not love each other. They did not seem to hate each other, but there was no passion there. Dany compares her impending marriage to Hizdahr to Rhaegar's marriage to Elia, and marrying Hizdahr would be her doing her duty to the people rather than following her love.

Yet it cannot be forgotten the way Rhaegar did treat Elia. It may have been happy enough in the beginning, but I personally find it increasingly difficult to speak in defense of Rhaegar and his treatment of Elia as time goes on. It all starts at Harrenhal, when Rhaegar won the tournament.

Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion's crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

To anyone who says that the Dornish are fine with paramours and non-monogamy, and Elia might not have had any issue with this, here is what George himself said when providing feedback to an artist recreating this scene.

We’ve always imagined that the perfect image of the tourney at Harrenhal would kind of let you pick out all these figures in the stands, each with their different reactions when “the smiles died”. Jon Arryn and Robert and Lord Hunter joking a moment before what was happening dawned on them, Ned watching as Rhaegar was about to stop in front of his sister (who must have been seated quite close), mad Aerys glowering in the distance, Elia stiff-backed and trying to act as if nothing was wrong, Jon Connington probably looking vaguely sad (read: jealous), and so on.

That's not the reaction you have if you are okay with your husband passing you over for another woman. Non-monogamy, polyamory, that's one thing. Passing your wife and openly declaring for another women is just not that. Then of course you have arguably an event that helped contribute to war breaking out, which is Rhaegar's (alleged) kidnapping of Lyanna.

Rhaegar left his wife, his young daughter, and his newborn son all alone to elope with another woman. Elia could not have been happy about this. Rhaegar is one of my favourite characters, and I may have more than a slight crush on the guy, but even I have to admit this is not his finest hour. Elia was Rhaegar's duty, so it's not as though these two had a whirling epic romance. But both politically and personally, this is not how you treat your family. He didn't just abandon his wife, he abandoned his children. As reference, I would like to compare Rhaegar's struggles with love and duty with another character, one whose entire character could be defined by this; his son Jon Snow.

In A Dance with Dragons, Jon is stuck between two choices. The first is the love he has for his family, the desire to get vengeance for the wrongs done to them. The second is the duty he has sworn to the Night's Watch, to hold the Wall and prepare for the eventual invasion of the Others. He tries to ride a fine line between the two, but ultimately he gives into his desires, and chooses love by planning to go to war with Ramsay Bolton. He is then promptly killed by his officers for forsaking his vows.

This single action has yet to see its consequences, but none of it can be good. With Jon dead, peace between the Night's Watch and the free folk is very unlikely. War will break out and people will kill each other as the white walkers gain more strength and power outside the Wall. All the progress he has made, giving Alys Karstark sanctuary and promising her to a free folk husband, even the safety of Stannis's family, is at risk.

Jon is absolutely his fathers son. Rhaegar's duty is to be a faithful husband to Elia and a good father to their children, and to prepare the realm for the invasion of the Others. However, his love is for Lyanna, for song and romance. He tries to have it both ways; crowns Lyanna at Harrenhal, has another child with Elia. But in the end his heart won out, and he left Elia for Lyanna. Like Jon, this action led to a series of domino effects that led to open war, the death of his dynasty, and the death of Elia, his children, Lyanna, and finally himself.

Rhaegar may have been a mostly honourable, dutiful person, but he had a romantic, passionate side to him and his judgment was not always perfect. Like Jon, I do not believe Rhaegar ever thought his actions would lead to something this terrible. Jon did not think about what him dying would lead to. He believes he did not need his officers anymore. He was angry, disillusioned with the Night's Watch, and focused on revenge. It never entered his mind that the officers would kill him when he had just gotten the free folk to his side.

It's easy to say in hindsight that it would for Rhaegar, but characters are not omniscient. Running off without a word is reckless and impulsive, but it's not like they knew that Brandon would be similarly reckless, or that Aerys would do something as brazen and mad as executing Lyanna's father and brother without trial. Was it potentially short-sighted? Probably. Is it reasonable to assume they knew this series of events would happen and they didn't care? Not particularly. Characters are not readers.

A Love-Struck Prince

No discussion about Rhaegar is complete without Lyanna. The nature of their relationship is extremely contentious and the subject of much controversy. For one it is still not exactly clear with the published material if it was consensual, and even if it was, there is the rather concerning age-gap; Rhaegar as a young man, and Lyanna as a teenager. This discussion is not exactly one I'm comfortable with because it becomes a total shit-show so quickly. Either you call Rhaegar a pedophile and a rapist but conveniently ignore that Robert lusted after Lyanna as well, or you try to defend it by saying "it's just the times" (not true, medieval marriages were not this young).

What I'll say on the matter is that George definitely has an issue with what he considers romantic. He's been on the record as thinking that the wedding night between a 30-year old Khal Drogo and 13-year old Daenerys was a "consensual seduction," so I won't be surprised if he genuinely thinks this is a perfectly fine relationship. None of the ages in the books make sense, George knows he is bad at numbers. If we remember how young some of the characters are it gets to the point of ridiculousness and also makes literally every single character unsympathetic and terrible.

It's a massive flaw in an otherwise brilliant series. I personally use headcanon and death of the author for something like this, but not everyone does. That said, the fact that Lyanna was so young does leave the idea this was consensual a little unsettling to me. Yet, I also wholeheartedly believe that George is going to portray this as a consensual mutual, epic romance. The signs are literally everywhere.

We hear repeatedly about how Rhaegar loved Lyanna. Even Dany, who acknowledges that Rhaegar "kidnapped" her, thinks it was romantic. But the fact Rhaegar loves her is quite clear. The characters all universally agree (except Robert, of course) on this. However, it's not just because of what the characters say, characters can be wrong. George has called Rhaegar a "love-struck prince," and the companion World of Ice and Fire app (approved by Martin) says that in the Undying vision of Rhaegar dying, the name he whispers as he dies is "Lyanna."

But there is even more reason to believe this, and to believe that Lyanna also loved Rhaegar back. In fact, we have four different stories that all allude to Rhaegar and Lyanna, and provide insight into what we might expect. The first two come from the Dance of the Dragons, in Fire and Blood.

But we turn to Mushroom to find the tales other chronicles omit, nor does he fail us now. His account introduces a young maiden, or “wolf girl” as he dubs her, with the name of Sara Snow. So smitten was Prince Jacaerys with this creature, a bastard daughter of the late Lord Rickon Stark, that he lay with her of a night. On learning that his guest had claimed the maidenhead of his bastard sister, Lord Cregan became most wroth, and only softened when Sara Snow told him that the prince had taken her for his wife. They had spoken their vows in Winterfell’s own godswood before a heart tree, and only then had she given herself to him, wrapped in furs amidst the snows as the old gods looked on.

A Targaryen prince marries a Stark girl in secret before a heart tree out of love. Of course it's a Mushroom tale, and Mushroom is the Rudy Guliani of Westeros, but the idea this is supposed to harken back to Rhaegar and Lyanna is reinforced by the other secret marriage of the Dance; Aemond and Alys Rivers.

The “witch queen” of Harrenhal had proved to be none other than Alys Rivers, the baseborn wet nurse who had been the prisoner and then paramour of Prince Aemond Targaryen, and now claimed to be his widow. The boy was Aemond’s, she told the knight. “His bastard?” said Ser Regis. “His trueborn son and heir,” Alys Rivers spat back, “and the rightful king of Westeros.” She commanded the knight to “kneel before your king” and swear him his sword. Ser Regis laughed at this, saying, “I do not kneel to bastards, much less the baseborn whelp of a kinslayer and a milk cow.”

Alys Rivers claims to have the trueborn son of Aemond, which means they married. Her son is believed to be a bastard by everyone, not even a king, since nobody was really in witness to this marriage. Yet this does seem like foreshadowing for Jon's parentage eventually becoming public. Some people will simply laugh it out of court, or continue to call him a bastard, refuse to acknowledge him as king. But some people might also believe he actually is Rhaegar's trueborn son. Alys and Aemond in a way seem like dark mirrors of Lyanna and Rhaegar. Even the armour of Rhaegar and Aemond are described similarly, so this is definitely not accidental.

Seventeen and new to knighthood, Rhaegar Targaryen had worn black plate over golden ringmail when he cantered onto the lists.

Vhagar had come at last, and on her back rode the one-eyed prince Aemond Targaryen, clad in night-black armor chased with gold.

The third story might just about settle any debate on whether Rhaegar and Lyanna were both in love. This one comes directly from Jon's POV, which makes it especially significant.

"Well, long before he was king over the free folk, Bael was a great raider. The Stark in Winterfell wanted Bael's head, but never could take him, and the taste o' failure galled him. One day in his bitterness he called Bael a craven who preyed only on the weak. When word o' that got back, Bael vowed to teach the lord a lesson. So he scaled the Wall, skipped down the kingsroad, and walked into Winterfell one winter's night with harp in hand, naming himself Sygerrik of Skagos. Sygerrik means 'deceiver' in the Old Tongue, that the First Men spoke, and the giants still speak. North or south, singers always find a ready welcome, so Bael ate at Lord Stark's own table, and played for the lord in his high seat until half the night was gone. The old songs he played, and new ones he'd made himself, and he played and sang so well that when he was done, the lord offered to let him name his own reward. 'All I ask is a flower,' Bael answered, 'the fairest flower that blooms in the gardens o' Winterfell.' Now as it happened the winter roses had only then come into bloom, and no flower is so rare nor precious. So the Stark sent to his glass gardens and commanded that the most beautiful o' the winter roses be plucked for the singer's payment. And so it was done. But when morning come, the singer had vanished . . . and so had Lord Brandon's maiden daughter. Her bed they found empty, but for the pale blue rose that Bael had left on the pillow where her head had lain. Lord Brandon had no other children. At his behest, the black crows flew forth from their castles in the hundreds, but nowhere could they find any sign o' Bael or this maid. For most a year they searched, till the lord lost heart and took to his bed, and it seemed as though the line o' Starks was at its end. But one night as he lay waiting to die, Lord Brandon heard a child's cry. He followed the sound and found his daughter back in her bedchamber, asleep with a babe at her breast. They had been in Winterfell all the time, hiding with the dead beneath the castle. The maid loved Bael so dearly she bore him a son, the song says . . . though if truth be told, all the maids love Bael in them songs he wrote. Be that as it may, what's certain is that Bael left the child in payment for the rose he'd plucked unasked, and that the boy grew to be the next Lord Stark. So there it is—you have Bael's blood in you, same as me. The song ends when they find the babe, but there is a darker end to the story. Thirty years later, when Bael was King-beyond-the-Wall and led the free folk south, it was young Lord Stark who met him at the Frozen Ford . . . and killed him, for Bael would not harm his own son when they met sword to sword. When Lord Stark returned from the battle and his mother saw Bael's head upon his spear, she threw herself from a tower in her grief."

Very long quote, abridged somewhat, but very significant to Jon's backstory. Bael seemingly had kidnapped this Stark girl and raped her, and later got what he deserved when he is killed by a Stark lord. Except that Bael and the Stark woman were in love, as evidenced by the grief she felt when she learned he was dead. There is even Bael's son being raised as a Stark and not knowing who his true father was, just like with Jon.

Finally, we only need to look into the Targaryens a single generation prior to find more allusions to Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Aegon's eldest son Duncan, Prince of Dragonstone and heir to the throne, was the first to defy him. Though betrothed to a daughter of House Baratheon of Storm's End, Duncan became enamored of a strange, lovely, and mysterious girl who called herself Jenny of Oldstones in 239 AC, whilst traveling in the riverlands. Though she dwelt half-wild amidst ruins and claimed descent from the long- vanished kings of the First Men, the smallfolk of surrounding villages mocked such tales, insisting that she was only some half-mad peasant girl, and perhaps even a witch. It was true that Aegon had been a friend to the smallfolk, had practically grown up among them, but to countenance the marriage of the heir to the throne to a commoner of uncertain birth was beyond him. His Grace did all he could to have the marriage undone, demanding that Duncan put Jenny aside. The prince shared his father's stubbornness, however, and refused him. Even when the High Septon, Grand Maester, and small council joined together to insist King Aegon force his son to choose between the Iron Throne and this wild woman of the woods, Duncan would not budge. Rather than give up Jenny, he foreswore his claim to the crown in favor of his brother Jaehaerys, and abdicated as Prince of Dragonstone. Even that could not restore the peace, nor win back the friendship of Storm's End, however. The father of the spurned girl, Lord Lyonel Baratheon of Storm's End—known as the Laughing Storm and famed for his prowess in battle—was not a man easily appeased when his pride was wounded. A short, bloody rebellion ensued, ending only when Ser Duncan of the Kingsguard defeated Lord Lyonel in single combat, and King Aegon gave his solemn word that his youngest daughter, Rhaelle, would wed Lord Lyonel's heir.

Prince Duncan the Small, son of Aegon V, was betrothed to a Baratheon girl. He spurned her in favour of a girl who was known to wear flowers in her hair. The aggrieved Lord Baratheon rose in rebellion, and many died. Lyanna was betrothed to Lord Baratheon. She is noted to not have loved Robert, telling Ned that even if he loved her it would not change his nature. Ned also believes that Robert never really loved her, saying he only "saw her beauty, but not the iron underneath."

Lyanna is also known to have loved winter roses, and Jenny wore flowers in her hair. Her and Rhaegar disappearing led to an aggrieved Lord Baratheon rising in bloody rebellion. Duncan and Jenny married without anyones leave but their own, so this is the third love story with a secret marriage between Targaryen princes and women of First Men descent. It's rather quite in our face.

Finally, George Martin himself is a huge romantic, not a nihilist. Rhaegar simply kidnapping Lyanna, locking her up, having a magic prophecy baby via rape, and then dying with her name on his lips is not romantic, it's nihilistic. Besides, I do not believe that Rhaegar eloping with Lyanna was because of prophecy. In fact, and possibly hot take, but I think Rhaegar eloping with Lyanna because of prophecy ruins this dichotomy of love vs. duty that he shares with his son.

If he groomed Lyanna to be with him and have a magic child of prophecy to save the world, then that would be him doing his duty (as he would see it). Yet, we also know that Elia was his duty, so thematically it feels a bit strange for Rhaegar to abandon his duty so he could focus on... his duty again? Did prophecy maybe motivate his actions with Lyanna a little bit? Sure, but it was not the primary reason. Thematically it makes much more sense for George, a romantic, to have one of the reasons for Robert's Rebellion to occur because Rhaegar, a love-struck prince, foreswore his duty to others by choosing love for himself. In fact we see Barristan go through the many wars of Westeros and how many have been started by forbidden love, with Rhaegar and Lyanna being lumped in together with the rest.

Better for Daenerys, and for Westeros. Daenerys Targaryen loved her captain, but that was the girl in her, not the queen. Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it. Daemon Blackfyre loved the first Daenerys, and rose in rebellion when denied her. Bittersteel and Bloodraven both loved Shiera Seastar, and the Seven Kingdoms bled. The Prince of Dragonflies loved Jenny of Oldstones so much he cast aside a crown, and Westeros paid the bride price in corpses. All three of the sons of the fifth Aegon had wed for love, in defiance of their father's wishes. And because that unlikely monarch had himself followed his heart when he chose his queen, he allowed his sons to have their way, making bitter enemies where he might have had fast friends. Treason and turmoil followed, as night follows day, ending at Summerhall in sorcery, fire, and grief.

Rhaegar did not simply do something like this because he was horny for Lyanna. As we've established, Ned believing Rhaegar never frequented brothels shows he is a man whose desires were ruled not by his libido, but by his heart. The best idea for why Rhaegar fell in love with Lyanna is that he discovered she was the Knight of the Laughing Tree. Wild, willful, beautiful, but iron underneath. Rhaegar loved and understood Lyanna more than Robert ever could or did.

The Wedding of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark

As briefly as I can (and I'm not good at being brief) I want to explain how Rhaegar and Lyanna wed, and address one of the most common pushbacks against the secret marriage theory. There are two ways in which Rhaegar could've married someone else. The first is via polygamy, with Lyanna as his second wife. This may make sense given there is historical precedent, but as we've seen, Rhaegar did care somewhat for going through proper channels. Polygamy would not be one such way to do it, and indeed the marriage would be seen as illegitimate on the face of it.

The other, presented by the TV show, and one that I favour, is that Rhaegar received an annulment from his marriage to Elia. Though there is this prevailing attitude that this would automatically make his children with Elia bastards, there is real life precedent where annulling a marriage with children did, in fact, not change their legitimate status.

Annulment of marriage does not currently change the status of legitimacy of children born to the couple during their putative marriage, i.e., between their marriage ceremony and the legal annulment of their marriage. For example, canon 1137 of the Roman Catholic Church's Code of Canon Law specifically affirms the legitimacy of a child born to a marriage that is declared null following the child's birth.

In addition, the daughters born from the marriage of Elaenor of Aquitaine and King Louis VII were not bastardized when they annulled their marriage.

On 21 March, the four archbishops, with the approval of Pope Eugene, granted an annulment on grounds of consanguinity within the fourth degree; Eleanor was Louis' third cousin once removed, and shared common ancestry with Robert II of France. Their two daughters were, however, declared legitimate. Children born to a marriage that was later annulled were not at risk of being "bastardised," because "[w]here parties married in good faith, without knowledge of an impediment, ... children of the marriage were legitimate."

Though the circumstances with Rhaegar and Elia are different, the precedent for such a thing is very much out there in the real world, and there's little to doubt that such a thing could occur in A Song of Ice and Fire. There are any number of grounds for an annulment between the two; Rhaegar could insist that because Elia cannot have anymore children, there is no point for the marriage to exist. He could also insist alongside this that King Aerys had arranged for the marriage in a fit of madness. Whatever the case, an annulment is not even close to as unreasonable as I've seen some fans argue it to be.

As to why an annulment would even happen in the first place, the reasons are both narrative and thematic. Jon Snow's true identity is a big mystery, and R+L=J is supposed to be the central mystery and big twist of the series. When George does twists, he does not pull any punches. Oberyn dies, Tyrion learns Tysha loved him and grows to hate his family. The Red Wedding does not simply kill off Robb, it kills off Catelyn as well in the most brutal ways possible, and Arya never gets to reunite with them.

Jon Snow's journey with identity is a massive part of the character. He is resentful of his bastard status, that his father never told him who his mother was. It would add to the drama and Jon's own angst that everything he believed about himself is a lie; Eddard Stark is not his father, he's not a bastard, he's got a claim to the Iron Throne, his name isn't even Jon.

My personal headcanon is that it isn't Rhaegar who comes up with the idea of an annulment, it's Elia. Elia has put up with Rhaegar's bullshit for so long, and now that he's preparing to meet with Lyanna, she's just had enough of excuses. Nothing that really points to this, but it's just a small headcanon that allows Elia some agency within the situation.

It is also my belief that Rhaegar and Lyanna's wedding was on the Isle of Faces. This is due to proximity from where Rhaegar and Lyanna met, as well as the fact it is a holy site for the old gods and would make a nice gift for Lyanna, a northwoman. It is also partly narrative, as it would allow someone (*cough* Bran *cough*) to see this and learn the truth behind their relationship. We also know that the Knight of the Laughing Tree story begins with Howland Reed visiting the green men on the Isle of Faces, which is out of place with the rest of the story, and also that George has confirmed the Isle of Faces will come to the fore in later books.

The Dragon's Morality

So, throughout this essay, I have wished to address some of the points about Rhaegar's character, to answer the ultimate question of whether or not Rhaegar is a good person. It's a hard question to answer for someone whose story is not even known and whose characterization is intentionally vague and mysterious. But looking at the totality, is Rhaegar more good than bad, bad than good, or equal parts good and bad?

He was kind, won friends easily, talented, dutiful, honourable, valiant. He tried to fulfill a prophecy that would seek to save humanity from the threat of existential annihilation, did not seek glory for himself or take joy in fighting and wars. He attempted to try and remove his mad and evil father from power. He was passionate and romantic, and loved music and books.

On the other hand, he also publicly insulted his wife Elia and later abandoned her and their children to elope with another woman. He did so without telling anyone, which led to a domino effect that led to tragedy for him and everyone he knew, along with many others. But how much responsibility does Rhaegar have in starting Robert's Rebellion? Was him crowning Lyanna queen of love and beauty the one inciting incident? Was him running off with Lyanna? Was it Brandon riding to the Red Keep and shouting for Rhaegar to come out and die? Or was it Aerys burning him and Rickard alive without trial and demanding the heads of the other Starks, Arryns, and Baratheons?

Personally speaking, I don't think any one of these, including his and Lyanna's disappearance, was the cause of the war. Instead, all of them together was the cause for war. Isolated none of these events on their own caused the rebellion, but all together they did. As George said himself...

"The Kingdom was unified with dragons, so the Targaryen's flaw was to create an absolute monarchy highly dependent on them, with the small council not designed to be a real check and balance. So, without dragons it took a sneeze, a wildly incompetent and megalomaniac king, a love struck prince, a brutal civil war, a dissolute king that didn't really know what to do with the throne and then chaos."

I believe that Rhaegar is a grey character, albeit a lighter shade of grey. He is a tragic figure destined for doom but attempting to fight it. He wanted to do things for the betterment of the world, knew of the great threat coming in the Long Night, attempted to find a way to remove a literal monster from the throne, and sacrificed much to do his duty in these events. His intentions were good, and he never did anything maliciously.

But his flaw was his passion. He put aside his love for song and books to become a warrior that Westeros needed. He did his duty and gave Elia, a woman he did not love, two children, even after courting Lyanna publicly. Yet in the end, his own desires and his heart could not be stayed, and he suffered for it.

Jon Snow is the same way. Sacrificing his family, his home, his lover, all to protect the world. But he failed just as Rhaegar did, and suffered for it. Daenerys too has done this. She sacrificed her throne, her home, her own lover, her morals, even her own dragons, to keep the people he had freed from the bonds of slavery safe. And just like Rhaegar, she too could not keep to it in the end, giving up Meereen, deciding it is time to use her dragons and make west. How this will go for her is a matter of debate, but I imagine she will similarly suffer consequences from it.

Rhaegar isn't a villain. He's a tragic hero.

#asoiaf #asoiaf meta #rhaegar targaryen #prince rhaegar #lyanna stark #rhaegar x lyanna #elia martell #the winds of winter #jon snow #r+l=j #daenerys targaryen #aerys targaryen

[sakuraharuno156]

Why Hinata hate in Sakura Fandom makes sense and the other way around - a rant.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'll precede it by saying - COMPARISON HAS NO SENSE. THEY BOTH HAVE NOTHING TO GAIN.

Sakura is a main character so comparing her to Hinata makes just as much sense as comparing her to Kiba - non.

Hinata is a background character so comparing her to a main makes just as much sense as comparing her to Kakashi - non.

However, the hate between those Fandoms is a different story.

And I'm gonna try to keep it unbiased (as a new years gift I guess) even tho I do have my biases towards those two.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If you like a character you probably have a reason to do so.

You can like Shikamaru, L (death note) and Sherlock Holmes because you have a thing for those INCREDIBLY INTELLIGENT people.

Or

You can like Obito and Zuko (Atla) because you, like me, are into that good redemption arc.

You can like different characters for different reasons, but if you like intelligent people you are more likely to like Shikamaru than Lee, because they just suit your preferences better.

So it's hard for people to like both Sakura and Hinata.

Sakura is strong and hot-headed

Hinata is shy and timid

Sakura is quick to do something

Hinata is more into watching from behind

Sakura, when she sees something she likes or dislikes, reacts abruptly and harshly

Hinata is gonna blush and faint

Sakuras fighting style is rough, strong and upfront

Hinata is delicate and reserved

Sakura is a junnin

Hinata is a stay at home mom

They are completely different people so:

For Hinata Fans, that love her for her love and admire for Naruto, Sakuras rejecting Naruto time and time again seems stupid.

For Sakura fans that love Sakura for being a strong female character, Hinatas constant need for saving is absolutely dreadful.

For Hinata Fans, Sakuras hot-headedness and need for action is seen as rude and out of place.

If you love Hinata for being shy and reserved, stressed to react, like here:

You can't like Sakura for standing up for herself (and her friends) like here:

(Naruto just insulted Lee that had saved their lives)

4. For Sakura fans, that love her for becoming so strong from nothing, Hinatas great, wasted potential is painful.

When you love Sakura for cannonicaly training hard:

You can't like Hinata for bringing tea to people who do train:

5. When you love Hinata for wanting to stand with Naruto, Sakuras want to fight with both Naruto and Sasuke hand in hand is ridiculous.

If you were proud of Hinata for this:

You see no reason to see this as important:

6. When you love Sakura for carrying for both of her friends, you see Hinatas need to be with just Naruto as selfishness.

If you love Sakura for wanting to be a great ninja to help both of her friends:

You will have a hard time liking Hinata, who to be a better ninja just to be noticed by Naruto:

You can sort of distinguish a characteristics of both Fandoms:

Sakura fans:

Feministic

Independent

With constant need of improvement

Hinata fans:

Loving

Persistent

Shy

So I don't understand why people are surprised that those two Fandoms dislike each other.

You can't be a faminist and stand by Hinata.

You can't be into timid and uncertain characters and stand by Sakura.

That's just how it works 🤷‍♀️

So, in conclusion:

Comparing them is irrelevant, noone has anything to gain from it... but hate? Oh baby! Thats 100% different.

I'm a firm believer into hating fictional character that are against your beliefs.

So stop comparing and start hating them for who they are, not for who they are in comparison to others.

Let's see Hinata fandom the world burn 🔥❤️

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Btw:

(I'm gonna hashtag it both with "hinata" and "anti-hinata", because even tho I tried to be objective, I dislike Hinata so... idk how I did xD)

Btw 2:

Happy new year 🎉🎉🎉

#anti hinata #naruto #pro sakura #sakura haruno #anti hinata hyuga #pro sakura haruno #anti hinata fandom #anti filler #hinata fandom #sakura fandom #hinata fans #sakura fans #hinata #hinata hyuga #pro naruto manga #naruto manga

[kitkats-and-kittens]

My issue with derision and how it deals with Marinette’s problematic behaviour.

Disclaimer before I make this post that I’m not an avid miraculous fan, so if I get things wrong feel free to correct me.

I used to watch it a lot as a kid but I’m not so into it now. The reason I’m making this post is because recently my little sister came over to visit me and she loves the series half to death. I decided to sit down and watch it with her just for fun, and long story short my ADHD hyper fixation kicked in and I ended up binging 2 whole seasons.

And OML the only thing that did was remind me why I stopped watching the show in the first place

As a kid I never liked Marinette’s character. That was more of a me problem though since back in season 1 there wasn’t really too much wrong with her, I was just having my whole ‘I hate girly things phase’ so I didn’t like her.

However When season 3 came out she was firmly cemented as my least favourite character. I didn’t like her weird, creepy behaviour as well as the fact that the writers didn’t really give her any flaws, or at least none that really effected the plot.

I think the thing that made me the angriest was the fact that no one seemed to address it. The writers didn’t seem to care, everyone in the show applauded and even encouraged her behaviour and everyone in the fandom seemed to love Adrienette. I couldn’t find anyone mentioning the fact that the girl literally broke into his house and it pissed me off to no end.

As it turns out though I wasn’t the only one offset by her behaviour as in one of the recent episodes ‘Derision’ the writers finally decided to address the huge distaste with Marinette’s actions.

Of course this show being what it is means that Marinette can’t have a single flaw, so instead of doing what I thought was the logical thing and having an episode where the staking is seen and addressed as a bad thing and Marinette takes measures to fix and develop herself the writers decide to just excuse it all by saying she was traumatised.

I hated the way they dealt with this.

First of all the writing was just lazy.

Her being suddenly traumatised by Kim despite having absolutely no issues with him anywhere else in the show? I thought that was stupid and not well thought out since this whole bit is just the writes slapping a bandaid solution on fans complaints. Also I’m vaguely certain that Kim has a canonical fear of spiders so why is he using them to prank Marinette of all people with?

Second of all it doesn’t do a good job of explaining why she was a stalker.

In the episode she says that it was because Kim broke her trust so she now refuses to get into a relationship with someone without knowing everything about them.

This is supposed to explain her weird behaviour towards Adrien but it doesn’t simply because this is shown to only be a problem with him.

It’s not like we catch her breaking into Luka’s house on multiple occasions so she can go through his things and sniff his pillow. Nor does she seem to care about finding out anything and everything about Cat Noir. I’m fine with this being the case when she’s ladybug since she doesn’t really show any romantic appeal towards him but as Marinette?

The show establishes that she has at minimum a crush on him and that’s all it took for her to start going after Adrien, and maybe you could say that she doesn’t have the means to stalk Cat Noir since she’s a civilian but we’ve seen repeatedly that she’s not above abusing her own superpowers to do so with Adrien.

Even the argument that she wants to protect secret identities is useless when you watch Ephemeral and see that she was completely on board with manipulating Cat Noir so she could expose his identity to a person without his consent.

I think the worst part for me however, is the fact that I could look past all the lazy writing and the pathetic excuses used to justify her actions if she’d done the bare minimum by apologising to Adrien.

Admitting to him what she’d done and telling him she was sorry. I would’ve liked it if the writers didn’t have Adrien forgive her (at least not right away) but I know they don’t have the capacity to have Marinette be genuinely in the wrong for anything so I would have settled for just an apology instead.

But they can’t even do that! All that happens is that Marinette promises to herself that she won’t do it anymore and as usual Adrien is left none the wiser.

Even though I’ve only recently gotten back into the show this episode along with Kuro Neko and the season 5 finale have shown me that I genuinely can’t ship Adrienette in good conscience anymore.

Marinette just lies to him about too much important stuff. It’s so unfair to him that he’s constantly kept out of the loop about things in his life that directly involve him and the people who do this face absolutely no consequences.

Heck even Gabriel got his happily ever after by bringing his wife back meanwhile Adrien is living a complete lie as the people he cares about reassure him that everything’s fine when it really, really isn’t.

I’ve seen people act like this episode somehow provides a good excuse to Marinette’s actions but barely anything is done in terms of character development so I have to disagree with them.

Anyway thanks for comin to my tedtalk if you want to argue with me in the comments please be respectful about it.

#miraculous fandom #miraculous critical #marinette dupen chang #mlb adrien #cat noir #Derision #kuro neko #I can’t even call this Marinette salt #it’s clearly a problem with the writers since they can’t seem to handle giving her flaws #stalking #Marinette is creepy #marinette salt #I’m tagging it anyway just incase

[annaraebananawriter]

It’s Stupid, Really

Well, well, well. What do we have here? Why, it’s another oneshot based off of some tweets from @dreemurr-skelememer, this time about Dream having a panic attack/ptsd episode in front of Nightmare, how interesting!

I did change a few small details, but the overall idea is the same. I just got into a flow while writing it and rid the flow until the end. 

Also, fun fact: I had planned to write this in January. I got all the dialogue written in my document and everything and then never touched it until now. I had originally planned to do it from Nightmare’s POV, but apparently that was the wrong move, because I looked at it again and decided to write from Dream’s POV instead, and I kid you not that the exact second I made that decision, I knew how to do it.

All the motivation I was missing came flooding in.

So, maybe all that advice about scenes maybe needing to be written from a different POV than what you planned is true. 

And the pacing of this might be fast, maybe too fast, but I think it reads well. Reads like you’re short of breath, I think.

Now, I...I don’t have much else to add. Happy reading, I guess!!!

Fandom: Undertale/UTMV

Characters:   Dream, Nightmare (Who belong to Joku), and mentioned Ink (Who belongs to Comyet), mentioned Bad Sanses, and mentioned Blue (Who belongs to P0pcornPr1nce)

Warnings: A panic attack and/or a PTSD episode, calling a panic attack and/or PTSD episode ‘stupid’, and self-hate, and I think that’s it. Let me know!

Summary: “ A party with a big crowd of people triggers a panic attack for Dream, who gets lost in memories of the Apple Incident. Luckily, or unluckily, depending, Nightmare is also at this party and is also the closest person available for Dream to cling to. (UTMV, Dream Sans Centric)”

Word Count: 3240

~oOo~

Dream tries to hunch himself over to appear smaller. Maybe he can blend into the crowd and can slip out of here soon.

Ink had heard of a party in some AU and really wanted to go. He tried to get both Dream and Blue to go with him, but Blue already had things to do. Dream, on the other hand, had a rather boring day planned of lying in bed and thinking for hours, and he felt bad because he wanted to say no but didn’t have a real excuse, so he ended up saying yes. Ink was excited, however, and they arrived rather early.

One would think that arriving early would help him get used to the size of the crowd, but the more skeletons he watched enter, the worse he felt. He was offered a drink multiple times and could politely deny only a few times before people got suspicious, wondering if he was alright. He grabbed some water to make people stop asking. It seemed to work, so his next problem was getting lost in the crowd until he could escape to a quieter part of the building. It made him uncomfortable, being surrounded by people, but he forced himself to work through it, sipping at his drink.

Oh, look. An exit was right in front of him, and only a few skeletons were in the way.

He sighs in relief, clutching his drink like a lifeline.

“Hey, Dream!” A Sans he’s only seen a couple of times from an AU he can’t remember the name of shouts, leaning on him. He grabs Dream’s drink out of his hands. “Why’re you just drinking water? Let me get you a real drink.”

“Oh, no thank you, I…” Dream starts, but the Sans stumbles off anyway. He cringes, sighs, and backs away, aiming to huddle into a corner and be invisible until the end of the party.

On his way, more people shout, gleeful about something happening further into the crowd, and he flinches. People shift, aiming to get a closer look at all the commotion, and he tries to elbow his way through as gently as he can. He stumbles and gets dragged into the crowd, people pushing him multiple ways.

He cringes again, trying to escape, but can’t find a gap to squeeze through. Is it just him, or is it really hot in here all of a sudden?

“You absolute beast!” Someone shouts, sparking laughter—

No, no, not laughter, jeers. People whisper to each other, nasty things about his brother—

No, no, no, not about his brother, just comments on whatever is going on—

No, wait. More people are shouting, some proclaiming that they knew it, some hurling insults, some just scoffing in disbelief—

In disgust.

Someone in front of him shifts to the right. He catches a glimpse of a skeleton huddled on the ground, curled up by the base of something—

A tree, Mother—

No, stop, stop being stupid—

And something rolling on the ground in front of them—

An apple—

Stop.

Dream’s breath hitches.

He steps back, turning, trying to get away from it, telling himself it wasn’t real, it couldn’t be real. It was the past. He wasn’t there anymore, he left long ago. This wasn’t happening. Someone shoves at him—

And if this wasn’t real, would he still feel that? He can’t tell.

There are more leers and someone whoops, throwing something in the air—

Rocks rain down on Mother.

Nightmare tries to talk over all the noise, frantically explaining himself, but no one is listening.

Dream tries to fight his way through, get in front of the crowd, in front of his friends. He’s confused because they never acted this mean before. They keep throwing rocks, and he knows being hit with a rock hurts, so why are they throwing them at Nighty?

Something is wrong, something is wrong, something is wrong.

The wrongness fills him in rhythm with his footsteps. He’s breathing heavily, using all of his efforts to get out of this blasted crowd and find Nighty and get him away from all of this noise. His brother doesn’t like loud noises anymore. He doesn’t know why, but that doesn’t matter, because this is a loud noise and Nighty hates it here, he’s sure of it.

They need to get out.

Dream runs—

Stop, stop, stop, get out of here, this isn’t right, move on, move away—

Find Nighty and protect him, find him and protect him, find him and protect him—

Hurry, hurry, hurry—

With a final shove, he steps out in front of the crowd and looks up frantically, searching.

Only, Mother isn’t here. Neither is Nighty.

Blinking, he turns, facing the crowd of villagers, but this crowd is warped, wrong. They are all wrong. He doesn’t recognize any of them. He backs away from them, confused and worried and alarmed. His back presses against a wall and he stops breathing.

He can’t move.

He can’t move.

He can’t move anymore, something hardening his body and making him numb—

No, no, no, no, no. Not happening. You’re not there.

Stop being stupid.

He needs to find his brother. He needs to find him. They’re in danger. Nighty’s in danger. They need to find each other and run before it all goes wrong. They need to escape.

Where is his brother? Where is he? Where—

The word looks dizzy, he feels dizzy—

There’s someone beside him and—

“Dream?”

—They know his name.

Dream blinks.

The breath he was holding escapes him in a gasp.

The person beside them is dark and blurry. He can’t make out many details. Something moves behind them. Another villager? Then that means this is a villager. Not one that he recognizes, though. But maybe that’s a good thing. Maybe they can help.

They might know where Nightmare is.

“Dream, what…” the villager starts, confused, and concerned. Dream jolts into action, frantically grabbing onto their shoulders. His hands slid, almost like he was grabbing at oil. That’s odd. It’s familiar, too. Odd. He tightens his grip. “Hey! Get off—”

They don’t like that very much. Dream doesn’t care what they do or don’t like as long as they help him. “Have you seen my brother?”

The villager stills. “Huh?”

Frustrated, his fingers twitch. He glances around as the villager takes a moment to reorient themselves.

No Mother, no brother. Still the same.

His chest is beginning to tighten again.

“What?”

“My brother.” Dream exhales sharply at the villager’s confusion. “Looks like me, exactly like me. Just wears purple instead. It’s his favorite colour.” He doesn’t know why he mentioned that. The villager didn’t need to know that. Can’t he do anything right? “Have you seen him? I need to find him. I need to find him. Fast.”

The villager laughs harshly in disbelief. “Is—Is this a joke or something? Dream—”

“It’s not safe here. Not safe. I need to find Nighty. I need to get to him. It’s not safe here.” Dream explains, glancing around again. No change. Has it gotten hotter? He feels like he’s sweating a lot. “We’re in danger. Very bad, bad danger. He’s in danger. I need to find him. Have you seen him? Please tell me where he is.”

“Dream…”

Though he hears the villager try to speak, Dream rushes over him, impatient. “Tell me, please. Tell me, tell me, tell me. Please. I need to get there in time. I can’t be late again. Things—” He chokes on a breath and something pricks at his sockets, the edges of his vision darkening. “I can’t lose him. I can’t. He’s all I have. Please. Please. Please. Please. Please…” His voice cracks and he repeats the word over and over.

Please help him, please, please, please—

Please save Nighty, please, please, please, please—

Please, please, please, please—

He’s being led somewhere. Is the villager helping him?

Please, please, please, please—

The music—when did that start? Where even was he?—fades the further they get.

Please, please, please, please—

Doors shut behind them.

Dream can’t see anything anymore; he’s panicking too much.

Where was he? Where is Nightmare? He needs to find Nightmare.

The villager makes him sit down. He frowns, trying to get up. He can’t rest now, not when Nighty needs him. The villager doesn’t let him up.

“Breathe, Dream.”

He is breathing. Isn’t he? Maybe he’s not. Maybe he’s dead and that’s why this place is so unfamiliar and Nighty wasn’t here and, and, and—

“Breathe.”

He’s breathing. He’s trying.

He wants his brother.

“I’m right here. Keep breathing, slowly. Match me. In…out. Good. You’re not in the village, Dream. Okay? You’re not there.”

But wasn’t he just…?

“You haven’t been there in years. We’re both safe. It’s okay.”

But it wasn’t. It wasn’t okay.

He needs to—

“Keep breathing, focus on breathing.”

Dream wants to scowl. He wants to frown and complain that he is doing all of that and it’s not helping. But he doesn’t, he instead inhales—

And his chest lightens a bit.

He squeezes his eyes shut, and exhales, trying to do as ordered.

His chest continues to lighten, cracks appearing in the stone as patches fall off of him—

You’re not there. You haven’t been there in years. Focus, Dream.

But it all feels so real.

And he can practically taste the apple on his tongue, the smell of negativity in the air—

And he inhales—

And the feel of a smooth staff in his hand, fabric clenched in his fist, tinging in his legs as he’s turned to stone—

And he exhales—

And the sound of wind and silence and manic laughter—

And he breathes—

And he sees—

And he—

And…

And he blinks, sockets aching.

And he sees the darkness in his vision fading. It bubbles away, letting his surroundings take its place. He’s sitting against the railing of the balcony of the building. One of them, at least. The bars bite into his back. There’s a faint breeze, carrying the smell of flowers from the garden below. It’s nice.

And Nightmare is in front of him, kneeling, hand outstretched and hovering.

Dream blinks in surprise.

Nightmare looks concerned, eye wide.

They stare at each other for a moment.

Brow furrowing, Dream clears his throat, craving a glass of water. His voice is hoarse. “…Nightmare?”

Nightmare shifts, hand lowering. “Yeah.” His brother relaxes a bit, still watching him.

Something drips off his fingers.

Goop the same colour as the goop that covers his brother covers his hands. It’s slimy and gross and the minute he notices, he wants to wipe it off, but it feels awkward and inconsiderate of him to do that in front of his brother.

Dream glances around, avoiding looking at him. Shame begins to heat his face and he internally sighs. Of course. He just had to get this way in front of Nightmare. This is like, the worst possible thing. But it’s just his luck. And now he’s left here afterward, wanting nothing more than to teleport straight home and sleep the next week away.

But doesn’t he owe it to Nighty for an explanation?

“Sorry…” His voice cracks again, and he coughs. “I—”

His mouth continues moving, but nothing comes out.

He frowns, trying again. “I—”

“Hold that thought.”

Dream looks up as Nightmare stands, walking back inside.

Well, if he really wants to, he could teleport away now and not face the humiliation surely coming his way. Nightmare will probably return with one of his guys and then a fight will break out, taking advantage of his weakened state. He doesn’t want to fight right now, doesn’t even want to move. If he could, he would just flop over and sleep right here. Then all of the aftermath of this can be dealt with once he wakes up.

But, no, he’s a big boy, and he will face it now as he should.

He wraps his arms around his legs and buries his head in his knees. God, he’s such an idiot. No, he’s weak. He knew coming to this party with Ink would be a risk. He felt the panic at the start, the minute they arrived and people were still pouring into the big, big room, but he swallowed it back and tried to forget about it. It was only when the crowd pulled him along that he got lost in his head. Everyone he pushed in his fight to get away must be so confused, and they must’ve talked about it with their friends and now everyone was probably wondering why he was acting so weird.

Hopefully, no one noticed the terror he felt, but he has a feeling it might’ve been obvious…

This will be such a big mess to clean up. Why did his brain have to betray him like this? Why did he give in so easily? It was like he wanted to get lost, and he never wants to get lost. He always says that it’s the last time he’d ever feel like this, but there always ends up being another thing that triggers it again. He doesn’t know how to stop it besides avoiding anything he manages to clue in on, like crowds.

And yet, here he was. Here he fucking was.

A hand grabs his wrist. Dream’s head snaps up. He watches, eyes wide, as Nightmare holds his hand and runs a damp washcloth over it, cleaning it. For some reason. Why? Why would his brother come back just to clean him up?

This wasn’t his mess to deal with.

This…this, the cleaning, reminds him of patching Nightmare up under Mother. It brings the aching longing he got sleeping in branches and walking through the woods to the front of his mind. It hurts and hurts and he’s unable to shake it off.

“Are you alright?” Nightmare asks, focusing on his task.

Dream swallows. “I’m fine.”

His brother looks up, unconvinced, raising a brow.

“Really, I am,” he insists.

Nightmare’s eye flicks over his face, searching for a lie.

Dream prepares himself, resigned at explaining. The words are on the tip of his tongue, ready, when—

“Okay.”

“Huh?”

“Okay.” Nightmare goes back to cleaning. He’s ruing a perfectly good washcloth just for Dream. He doesn’t know how to feel. “You don’t have to talk about it if you don’t want to.”

The words feel foreign to him. “Oh…Thanks.”

Nightmare hums.

Odd.

Dream’s not used to being told he doesn’t have to talk about things if he doesn’t want to. The villagers always wanted to make sure he was happy, asking him again and again if he was and flocking to make him feel better if he said he wasn’t. Even now, people prefer to know everything about his job. Most of the conversations he has with people besides Blue or Ink or a few others are one-sided questions about himself.

He's relieved that Nightmare is giving him a choice. He wants to stay silent and let them both forget this ever existed. If they can, that is. Still. He wants to keep any of what he was thinking about to himself, as much as he can. His brother is still his enemy, after all, and giving away all his vulnerabilities will only result in more difficult battles.

He doesn’t want to say anything, and yet he does.

For some reason, having a choice makes him want to tell Nightmare something even more. “I don’t like crowds. Specifically, not, um…big ones. Or loud ones. Or big loud crowds crammed in a small room. Whenever I’m in one for a long time, it…” He swallows again, glancing up and catching Nightmare’s eye. “It brings back bad memories,” he whispers, feeling childish that he’s avoiding saying anything specific.

Nightmare watches him for a moment. “Okay.”

His face is expertly blank. He can’t tell what his brother is feeling.

“I apologize that you had to deal with this.” Dream sighs. “I usually handle it.” He chuckles, tired. “It’s stupid, really.”

Nightmare still doesn’t say anything. Still blank. He’s finished with his task, setting the washcloth aside so he can fiddle with his fingers.

Dream starts, “I—”

“I don’t like apples.”

He blinks, forgetting what he was going to say. “…What?”

“I don’t. Brings back some bad memories. So, I don’t buy any or eat any. And that’s fine. I’m sure my boys know my dislike of them, too, ‘cause they never bring any home when they go shopping.” Nightmare pauses. “They may not…understand, exactly, but they don’t need to. They’re my friends. They accept it and live with it.” He looks right at Dream. “We all do.”

Dream blinks, looking at his hands. There wasn’t a speck left on them. Even all the dirt from the week, the build-up of grime he hadn’t had the energy to wash off, it was all gone. It felt strange to see the white bones underneath, marred by scratches as they were. He clenches them and opens them, admiring them.

Nightmare wasn’t talking about himself anymore. In his own, roundabout way, he was offering some advice that Dream really needs to hear. Stuff he has told others to do—trust those around you because the fact they were still there meant they cared far more than you realized. Friends lean on each other; no friendship is one-sided. Communicate, and you’ll have a better relationship. Whenever he had given the advice, he always felt he was lying, spouting facts he didn’t know were true. His brother seems to say it with such belief, and he probably does because he's learned all of it himself.

While Dream was stuck in stone, Nightmare was growing and moving on. He already knew this but it still surprises and pains him when he sees what that really means firsthand.

And yet…for all of his moving on, his brother still helped him today.

His brother could’ve just left him to his panic attack, let him make a fool of himself in front of everyone. Let rumors spread across the multiverse about him, watch his reputation and others’ trust in him crumble. Let him be weak. That was his goal, right? Beat him and give him a taste of what was owed to him, a sliver of what happened to his brother all those years ago? Why help his enemy out of a vulnerable spot, why not take advantage?

Dream wants to say it’s because, despite everything, they were still brothers, and that took priority over anything else.

With a new surge of confidence, Dream clenches his fists. “Right…Night, I—” But when he looks up, Nightmare is gone. He falters, looking around the empty garden as if his brother was simply hiding from him, but he knows he is gone.

He doesn’t sense him in the AU anymore.

Sighing, he stands on shaky legs. He’s disappointed, yes, but not surprised. He’ll just have to tell him another day how sorry he was about what happened, how much he misses him. Ask if he feels the same way. Ask if he wants to be brothers again in more than just title. Maybe, just maybe, Night’ll listen to him and maybe he’ll even say he wants to as well.

For now, though, Dream steels his resolve and leaves.

He’ll explain to Ink in the morning that he doesn’t really like big crowds, parties included.

#my writing #my fanfiction #fanfiction #oneshot #undertale #utmv #dreamtale #dream sans #nightmare sans #mentioned ink sans #mentioned blue sans #mentioned nightmare's gang #tw panic attack #tw ptsd #tw ptsd episode #tw self-hate #hope you enjoy!!