#that does the 'love conquers all' trope well

[ashfae]

The thing about romance is, it makes a good story.

As soon as Neil described season 2 as "quiet, gentle, romantic" I figured we'd be in for it, because as he's the first to point out, writers are liars. And the best way to deceive is with truth.

Season 2 is romantic. The trappings of romance are everywhere. Crowley tries to set up Nina and Maggie by trapping them under an awning during a rainstorm, a classic cinematic bonding technique. Aziraphale's chosen method comes from his beloved books: the ball, the dancing, appearing as a pair in public, hands held as you twirl gracefully with your heart thrilled and racing. If they can set up a sensational kiss that will unlock the happy ever after. They've lived on earth, they've studied the tropes, they know how romance works.

The problem is a story is only a story.

Nina and Maggie had the classic romantic setup completely by accident before Aziraphale and Crowley ever began trying to interfere with them. They get locked in Nina's coffeeshop. They can't escape or communicate with anyone else, they end up talking by candlelight because there's no electricity, Nina offers wine. Maggie mentions how she'd hoped for a chance to talk to Nina, and now here they are. It's every bit as much a standard as what Aziraphale and Crowley attempt to arrange. Blanket scenarios galore exist because of that starting point. We love that story. And there's nothing wrong with that.

But it's still only a story, it's not enough. Because once that moment of connection is over, however lovely it was, all the rest of the world comes flooding back in in the form of dozens of angry text messages. Nina's messy entrapping relationship hasn't magically gone away just because she and Maggie shared a romantic encounter.

And it's so tempting think oh well, that's easy. We'll just give them more romantic encounters and eventually those will overwhelm the rest of the baggage. Must do, because it'll make them fall in love, and once they realize they're in love that trumps all other considerations, right? So it'll be fine. Love Conquers All.

Neil also mentioned Pride and Prejudice.

Darcy knows he's in love early on and makes a disasterous proposal that shows that he has no understanding of Elizabeth's perspective, possibly hasn't even thought about it. They've been meeting in forest lanes for walks, conversing, had tete-a-tetes in the sitting room, danced at a ball. And while his turn of phrase isn't as flattering as he thinks, he's still offering her everything he thinks she wants and needs: affection, security, his good name, wealth, an escape from the embarrassments of her situation, the world. How can there be anything to object to? Why would anyone ever refuse so much of value?

Elizabeth quite rightly cuts him to pieces. He lashes back with a few hard truths of his own and they separate. During that separation, he thinks and he learns. He takes to heart the criticisms she offered, re-examines his assumptions, opens his eyes. Thinks about her perspective and how sometimes the only difference between pride and arrogance is where you're standing. He does the work. When they meet again he tries to demonstrate that he's learned--not in order to court her again (yet), but because the only real apology he can offer, the only one that would have weight, is to show that he's grown, he listened to her. He changed.

Elizabeth of course has her own journey, accepting that many of her own conclusions about Darcy were erroneous because they were formed without her having the full picture to hand, and once she's done that she has to apply it to her own situation as well. She loves her family, but they do place her at a disadvantage on a number of levels, leading eventually to full-out disaster as her younger sister carelessly ruins all of their reputations. It's hard to admit, it's mortifying, but Darcy was offering her a great deal she needs. His offer did have worth for all that she dismissed it as an insult. And as she learns to value his own character more highly, and then as she sees that he did listen to her even though she insulted him so thoroughly...well, she grows too. And when they do eventually come together it's not because of courting and balls. There's a big romantic gesture in his rescue of her sister but even that isn't why they'll get their happy ever after. It was just the catalyst for the conversation. They win because they've learned how to understand each other and how to communicate for the future. How they can strengthen and support each other, how to balance their strengths and weaknesses. The films leave them at the wedding, but the book shows a bit of their marriage too, and during it they keep learning from each other. Their relationship is held up as a superior love story for good reasons.

The end of season one was romantic too. Crowley stopped time rather than face a world where Aziraphale would never speak to him again, Aziraphale walked into hell to protect Crowley, they dined at the Ritz and toasted the world. But then they stopped. Sure they spent time together, talked, enjoyed each other's company. But if they were talking about important things would Crowley still be living in his car? They had a bit of respite but all that real world baggage that exists outside of the romantic moment hasn't been faced, none of it. Four or five years sounds like a long while but for beings who are quite literally older than the earth? That's just an intermission.

Nina's relationship ends, leaving her with a tangled mess; Maggie realises the sweet dream of love she's been longing for isn't as important as the real Nina. They talk. They plan. Nina will sort through her life, get closure, figure out what went wrong with Lindsay and what she wants from a relationship, learn how to ask for respect instead of just bending under her partner's demands. Maggie will support Nina the way Nina needs, which sometimes means helping her get oat milk for the shop and sometimes means giving her processing space. They're on the same page; they're going to do the work. That's why most likely they'll succeed. To quote one of my favourite fanfics: it's not happily ever after, but it's a chance. It's all going to be okay. (The Profane Comedy by Mussimm, who absolutely nailed this theme)

The romance is nice, it's lovely. We need it to keep ourselves going. To give ourselves the dreams that help us get through the days and nights. But it's not the relationship. It's not enough on its own. The wedding can be the grandest most beautiful ceremony ever with doves flying and sweeping music and bells ringing, but that doesn't guarantee the marriage will last.

Crowley and Aziraphale have had their romantic gestures, oodles of them. One wing raised to protect the other from falling stars, another from rain. Shared ground, shared interests, hands offered in friendship and held on a bus. They've tried to get to the same page, they really have. They just aren't there yet. The biggest most important things still haven't been talked about, and season 2 showed there are even more of those big important things than we'd realised.

The show paints Maggie as Aziraphale's foil and Nina as Crowley's, even to the point of Nina casually calling Maggie 'angel'. But Aziraphale's baggage is Nina's. The toxic relationship has to be processed and understood and closed, and it hasn't been, despite season one. Lindsay never really liked Nina very much, for all that they tried to keep her trapped; Heaven never really liked Aziraphale very much for all that he believed in it. They both let themselves be used. But Lindsay left Nina and went to their sister's, whereas now the head of Heaven has reached out to Aziraphale and said here, we can fix this, you can fix this, don't you want to fix this? Others are already writing about that and maybe I'll add to it later, not sure. And Crowley, like Maggie, has had a sweet dream that he has to set aside. Maybe he'll be able to pick it up again eventually, maybe not. But sometimes you offer support by buying oat milk or rescuing your beloved from the legions of hell, and sometimes you do it by standing back while they sort through their shit.

Quiet, gentle, romantic. It was.

But that's only part of the story. Now they have to do the work. They thought they had, but they were wrong, because there's so much they just hadn't touched yet and tried to cover over with relief and sleight of hand and alcohol and forgiveness. The apology dance doesn't mean much without showing that you listened and learned. They've faced so much trauma already and that should have been enough, we wanted it to be enough and so did they and it's such a blow for it to turn out that there's still more to do, that the baggage hasn't just gone away and can't be hidden under blankets or soothed with cocoa. The texts are still coming in and demanding answers.

But it'll be okay. It will. It's still a chance. And one that in the long run makes them better, builds something real that lasts.

The best stories, the ones that last longest and become classics, are the ones that don't end with the kiss under the awning or the blanket scenario or the wedding. They're the ones that heal us while the characters heal themselves. It's hard to accept that there's still more to do. Harder to imagine how it can possibly work out. And yes, bloody frustrating to wait and see.

And we'll get through that interim by telling even more stories. Because the story is never just a story. It's how we get through the work, it's what we tell ourselves so we can do the damn work. Stories are what we cling to and how we remind ourselves we're human and connect. A book is a person you can carry with you. We're not alone, none of us, stories connect us because we love them and see ourselves in them, which means we see each other.

Aziraphale's back up in Heaven to deal with his unfinished baggage; Crowley left his behind long ago and it's clearly going to come back and bite him in the arse however much he tries to go his own way. And they can't help each other with that. Not yet.

But they'll get there. So will we.

#good omens #good omens season 2 #gos2 spoilers #good omens season 2 spoilers #crowley #aziraphale #ineffable husbands #nina #maggie #nina and maggie #stories #romance #relationships #am I projecting here #of course I am isn't that the whole point? #pride and prejudice #elizabeth and darcy #quiet gentle romantic #good omens meta

[adventures-in-mangaland]

I'm going with 10 All Time Classics from the Captain America (MCU) fandom. I mean, they're all classics to me, at least. In no particular order:

1. This, You Protect by owlet

First installment in the Infinite Coffee and Protection Detail series, which are all amazing. It's a “Bucky escaping Hydra and rebuilding his sense of self” fic, which he does while spying on Steve. With eventual Avengers Family and a lovely cast of OCs bonding with Bucky in the meantime. It has a very distinctive perspective and writing style; Bucky's in constant internal (and sometimes accidentally external) dialogue with himself, making it hilarious and tragic all at the same time. I love it. I've recently been getting into The Murderbot Diaries by Martha Wells and this Bucky has a similar sassy-but-vulnerable vibe? Read this if you like that, anyway.

2. The One Who Knows by Dira Sudis (dsudis)

This is a Political Animals AU, in that no-powers Steve is inserted into the Political Animals world and Bucky is TJ. Discusses being outed and depression but is ultimately hopeful. The author is one of my all time faves and has written lots of great stories for this and many other fandoms.

3. Blue Scales by chaya

Steve is a merman AU. He's still Captain America, though. It's crack with heart, I love it.

Best line: "May your scales and your love story be our weird secret forever.”

4. Our Lingering Frost by eyres

AU where Bucky is rescued from Hydra in the 50s (?) and so is around for Steve to be found.

5. Assets Out of Containment by follow_the_sun

It's a classic to *me*, OK? Bucky goes undercover at Jurassic World just as that movie's plot kicks off. They're Hydra dinosaurs! It's just great. Also has a podfic and crossovers with Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

6. Not Easily Conquered (series) by dropdeaddream and WhatAreFears

Some of the greatest fanfiction I've ever read, the whole series is epic. Anyway, it's a "Steve doesn't go into the ice" AU with added queer angst when (never sent) love letters from Bucky resurface. I particularly like the second installment in the series The Thirteen Letters, which are just Bucky's letters and are insanely well-written.

7. to memory now I can't recall by Etharei

Time travel AU! Featuring post-CATWS Bucky accidentally switching places with CATFA era Bucky.

8. If Wishing Made It So by Leveragehunters (Monkeygreen)

Genie!Bucky AU! This author is great at writing AUs with fantasy/genre elements, it was hard to choose. They've also written an excellent werewolf!Steve AU and a horse!Steve AU that I really love.

9. Into That Good Night by Nonymos

An Interstellar AU! Very angsty and tragic but with an eventual happy ending.

10. Goodbye Piccadilly, Farewell Leicester Square by Speranza

Speranza must be one of the best writers in the fandom, so it was hard to pick just one of their fics. Other strong contenders were All the Angels and the Saints and The Fifties, so check those out too! But this one has a special place in my heart. Steve, Tony and Natasha accidentally time travel to WW2 London, leading to an accidental run-in with CATFA-era Bucky. The author does tragic and romantic time travel tropes so well, but with a happy ending.

I now realise that most of these are AUs, so here’s a bonus rec for a non-AU in-universe story that’s severely underrated and deserves more love:

+1

Heart, Have No Pity on this House of Bone by Sena

This story follows Bucky in-action in the Pacific Theatre. It’s very well written and, from what I can tell, well researched. Steve only appears in Bucky’s imagination and the story focuses on the horrors of war rather than romance, but it’s gripping! And it explores unrequited love, being closeted and period-typical homophobia, which I also enjoyed. I’m still holding out hope for a sequel.

#wow throwback #found this in my drafts #originally intended for international fanworks day #yikes #anyway #fic recs #fic rec friday #international fanworks day #captain america #fanfiction #mcu #stucky #nostalgia #kind of an old fandom for me now #but still #classic fics #fandom classics #stucky fic recs #stucky fic #my fic recs #my fic rec posts

[panlight]

Breaking Dawn has always read like a fanfiction to me. I'm aware this has probably to do with the fact, that Forever Dawn was written before New Moon and Eclipse, and SMeyer just rewrote some pieces of it.

But this made me think - most fans probably have an idea of how they would have liked the story of Bella and Edward to end and those endings might all be a little, or even very different. What would your perfect ending for the Saga look like? You can place it after any point of the story - just after the first book, in the middle of New Moon, around the end of Eclipse, wherever you want.

It really does have a lot of fanfic-y tropes. The big wedding. The over-the-top tropical honeymoon. This is an 18-year-old middle class girl getting married here. Sure the Cullens are rich but she's not an actual princess or something, this always felt hugely over the top to me in a fanfic-y way. And then the baby, of course. It does tick a lot of boxes of the sort of fanfic that imagines what happens after the book/movie/show where the main couple get married and have a kid.

For me, vampirism without consequences is just completely uninteresting. Bella getting to have her cake and eat it too not only undermines all the themes in the earlier books and makes Edward's brooding about being a vampire seem like unnecessary whining, it's also just boring.

So my ideal ending is an actual follow up to Eclipse. Bella and Edward follow through on their compromise plan: wedding, sex, and vampirism in that order. There's no baby; Bella is turned on Isle Esme and spends a few months there on a secluded island with no people (the groundskeepers are given time off FFS Edward can clean the house) eating wildlife and adjusting to vampirism.

But she actually has to like, adjust. It IS has hard as people told her it was. She can still do well at it, but with struggle. I mean, Carlisle never killed anyone either but he did it by banishing himself to the woods and starving to the point that he unthinkingly attacked some deer. I believe it was hard and he struggled and so his triumph feels earned. Bella can still control herself better than average but I wanna see her struggle with it, versus like, one tense afternoon with Charlie and then totally being fine around humans and going to see lawyers in a sexy outfit, no problem. That felt anticlimactic.

Also there should be some fallout with Jake, and she should probably have to cut ties with Charlie and Renee. She MADE this choice to become a vampire knowing she was giving these things up, so for Breaking Dawn to be like "Nevermind! Haha!" about it was deeply unsatisfying. It killed the conflict and tension for Jacob and Charlie to still be part of her life and accepting of the weirdness of it.

For me, the whole point was Bella was sacrificing a lot to be with Edward. That is where the romance and angst lies. Getting to be beautiful and immortal and rich and powerful AND with the person you love AND keep your father and best friend AND get a perfect baby who never cries and sleeps through the night AND conquer the bloodlust in like 2 seconds was just . . . boring. All the stuff I had been interested in seeing how it would resolve was resolved in just the easiest, least interesting way possible. A perfect example: the wedding. We're told that Renee is going to freak out about this early marriage and even THAT relatively unimportant conflict is just instantly resolved with "actually, Renee's totally on board!!!!" Snore!

So yeah. Bella is turned on the honeymoon. It's hard. She cuts off ties with Charlie; maybe she fakes her death, maybe she just disappears. Jacob refuses to talk to her, but Sam is like "whatever she made her choice we're not going to start a war over this." And in this way Bella is actually cut off from her human life and has to start over with the new family and new life she chose. We probably have to resolve the Volturi situation somehow; maybe a trip to Volterra to prove she's been turned and some conflict with the Volturi comes into play.

But ultimately I just want an epilogue where she comes back to Forks with Edward to check in on Charlie and Jacob from a distance. She watches Charlie with Sue (or someone else) playing with step-grandbabies, she sees Jacob, who has stopped phasing and is aging and married with kids of his own, and it's hard. It's sad to see them going on without her. And Edward looks at her like he's about to apologize for the 239470242th time for robbing her of a human life and she's like, "No, the life I have with you is worth it," because THAT's the vibe! That's where the romance is! Her being happy in BD means nothing because it was all so easy for her! Her being happy despite the downsides of vampirism is where the romance lies!

#asks

[astronicht]

viking au, max/daniel f1🫶

Hopefully you came into this anticipating the wall of text 💜

1. The summer that Max was ten years old, the raids went far to the south, through the Pillars of Hercules and into the Mediterranean— because this literally happened like Vikings in fact did this. Theoretically Vikings could have seen Monaco! Anyway. This was memorable not because it was his first season — it was his second, he started a little young — but because it was the first time he stole something for himself on a raid. So, Max saw the coast from Narbonne and Pisa. And Max stole two cats on a raid of a town whose name he did not know, but where people died fast enough that a boy could dodge into a house with searching hands.

Back home, people sometimes laugh and ask if he saved his spoiled cats from the pelt-sellers, who raise cats for their fur (sorry i know i wanted sexy viking “i stole my dutch wife” stuff and instead i give u this canonical Viking-era Danish practice SORRY). He always corrects this: “no, I went out viking and i stole them.” People usually think this is a joke. Their names are Jamti and Saxi, because of course Max does not know their original names. (these are both boy names but whatever, his cats are named after Monaco clubs, what do you want me to do about it).

2. Daniel’s folks are from Sicily and Calabria; let’s put him in Calabria, which is partly Byzantine Greek ruled by Constantinople and partly Arab; he would call himself Roman (meaning Byzantium, the Eastern Empire) and speaks Greek, probably, with a smattering of Arabic that is mostly slang. He is weirdly bad at it. (Sicily was entirely Berber Muslim at this point with a large Byzantine Greek population, by the by, and would later be conquered by the descendants of the Vikings, so I guess that’s a whole different AU). Daniel, for his part, was not stolen from his home; his father was not killed, his mother and sister are presumably well. It is simply that he could not sit quietly in a warm place that would have loved him fine. Oops!

3. They meet for real in the town of Jorvik, which is a river city in what will later be England. Christian warned Daniel ahead of time that they were taking on a new kid, implied that there was a favor owed. Daniel’s met the father, and like, fair enough. Pay Jos back for whatever and steer clear, in Daniel’s opinion, and Daniel and Christian usually agree. Max arrives with a set face and carrying his cats — who are 16% smaller than modern cats but still fucking heavy and sliding around unhappily — in a wicker basket that he carries up the hill from the river himself, his doeskin boots sliding in the muck. A few of the guys tell Max he can get mousers here, why carry these? Daniel, who had been in the city for three years now, tells him he should have taken the old Roman stone road. Max is unamused, but at least Daniel was (unwittingly) the helpful one. They are overwintering together in a house down by the other river. Max is seventeen.

3.a Christian’s debt owed was to Max’s mum. Daniel doesn’t know this.

4. Daniel does otherwise know a lot about Christian, because he helped the ironically named Christian Hornbære (also written as Hyrne), once a minor Northumbrian thane, to throw his lot in with the Danes (vikings), take a Dane wife, turn on his compatriots, and sack the place. Christian has remembered this loyalty ever since. This will come up later!

5. Okay since everyone has been patient i WILL play up one sexy (?) viking trope and like. At some point it’s spring and just prior to the beginning of raiding season and the first early little harvest has come in so Christian is hosting a feast before they all go off to do some genuinely heinous shit, and the expectation is absolutely that Christian’s boys get to fuck in this semi-public way in the longhouse. And Max and Daniel are two of the stars of the show, right, so it’s a sort of champagne room situation, only it becomes increasingly clear to Daniel, who is btw barely holding everything together, that Max is absolutely relying on him to get through this. Like everyone in this long dark room has been drinking for two days and Max is watching Daniel to see what he’s going to do, and Daniel is terrified to realize Max watching is the only reason he’s getting hard, etc. They fuck women side by side. It’s a mess! They get off, by which i mean daniel watches Max get off and then fakes his but watching max was the best part. After a bit Daniel goes outside bc he thinks he’s going to be sick but he’s not and he just sits on the new wet grass. Max comes out looking for him and somehow they end up just like. sitting in the wet grass and Max lets Daniel hold him and it’s the only thing that calms Daniel down that entire year, it feels like.

6. The emotional narrative here is like. The inherent tragedy of wanting to be the best, wanting to be beloved, wanting a crowd to know your name, and the outlet available to you is a small, brutal, violent activity. Not because there is absolutely no other option— the Viking Diaspora is one of the widest worlds to have existed; there was a rigid social structure, but one with lots of little odd corners and loopholes. But the tragedy comes in any time and place when no one thinks to tell you this. Max’s cats — stolen from the dead, but themselves simply just cats, just little animals that kill birds for food or to show you love — are kind of the nexus of this, somehow. No idea how I would resolve it, frankly, which is partly because i have to write things to know what they’re gonna say!

Further notes: in this verse Alex Albon’s granddad somehow got caught up in the Battle of Talas, probably on the side of the Tibetan Empire and the Caliphate but who knows, politics are big complicated. Like many Talas veterans’ families he lives in Baghdad right now with his mum and his siblings and he’s often very tired. Look if a Tang Chinese general could get lost in Ethiopia for a bit after the Battle of Talas then Alex Albon could be doomed to watch a really weird viking funeral on the banks of the Caspian during a trade mission to meet up with his father. Shit happens to him. Why is that nude viking man holding a torch and covering his anus?? We will never know bc Alex + Ibn Fadlan’s translator wisely chose not to show up that day. Alternatively Alex IS Ibn Fadlan’s translator, which explains why he is very tired.

what the fuck is this one! thanks for playing. i spent two hours researching domestic housecat dispersal theories.

#my fic #maxiel #f1 rpf #need a better tag for not actually fic #ask replies

[markantonys]

There's a lot of things in Rand's story that play into male power fantasies and the show has already veered away from that majorly so I wonder what else they might change to stay with that trend. Like even him conquering half the world would fall into that category (though that one might be unavoidable since it feeds into people's fear of him. They could frame it differently while still keeping the fear though).

this is interesting to think about! i think in the book version, a lot of rand's story is things that sound like male power fantasies on the surface, but whether or not it truly feels that way as you're reading along all depends on the specific reader. for example, it's no secret that a chunk of (male) readers (on reddit) very much read a lot of rand's story as a male power fantasy, seen in things like the way they idolize lan's extreme stoicism, consider rand & the asha'man making the aes sedai kneel at dumai's wells an epic moment, and think that elayne and avi are great for rand to have on tap for sex because they're hot but min is his only "real" girlfriend and it's ~weird~ that he claims to love all of them equally.

but when *i* was reading, i had different interpretations of these things. i read lan's extreme stoicism as a bad example for rand rather than a good one, so it didn't feel like a male power fantasy to me. i read dumai's wells as a grim moment showing rand and the world at large taking a turning point into darkness, so it didn't feel like a male power fantasy to me. i read avirandlayne as an equitable and queer polyamorous relationship rather than as a rand-centric harem, so it didn't feel like a male power fantasy to me (min's attitude did make it feel like a rand-centric harem to me lmao but if we exclude her i never got those vibes at all for avirandlayne).

some of this is down to, of course i as a queer woman will instinctively interpret some things very differently than a straight man would, so maybe there are instances where RJ did kinda get lost in the male power fantasy and they simply went over my head or were interpreted differently by me because that's not something i look for or hope to find in stories. some of it, though, is that RJ included instances of toxic masculinity/male power fantasies because he wanted to criticize them, but readers who are pro-male-power-fantasy only see the instance itself and miss the narrative's critique of it. and there's also some "he's a little confused but he's got the spirit" instances where RJ wanted to critique something but didn't quite pull it off because his own unconscious biases & cultural norms were affecting the way he wrote.

(then there are things like RJ telling us that the shadow will try to target people they know rand cares about and at the same time having min be My Lady Ta'veren being flaunted about on rand's arm all over the continent and facing absolutely 0 consequences from being publicly known as someone he loves, where i'm like "yeah this is 100% RJ getting carried away by a male power fantasy and muddling his own story because of it" lmao)

anyway, back to the show! rand & lanfear is a good example to look at because on the surface it very much SOUNDS like a male power fantasy (young doofus has a stunningly sexy older woman all over him), but it doesn't FEEL that way at all when you're watching it play out in context in the show (i mean, maybe a few rabid rand-haters might claim it does feel like a male power fantasy, but everybody with critical thinking skills can recognize this is a fucked up situation for rand). so, that makes me feel pretty confident that the show will be able to portray things like rand conquering half the world in a way where it feels like a tragedy rather than a triumph. a critique of male fantasy hero tropes rather than a glorification of them, same as the books so often did even if some readers miss it (and tbh this can apply just as much to the ~woke~ crew as to the redditors, where they declare that everything about rand's story is a shitty male power fantasy and completely miss how the story is showing that having a ton of power & attention actually makes his life suck; even things like the common "ugh women are constantly throwing themselves all over rand" complaint - with the exception of his 3 love interests, the abundance of women trying to hit on him makes rand extremely uncomfortable and isn't something he enjoys or benefits from! and the ~woke~ crew does not have the critical thinking skills to read this situation beyond the surface level of "all women want to fuck the male protagonist".)

now, as for what the show has actually *changed* so far on this front, the only big thing i can think of is that the EOTW & TGH finales are group efforts rather than Rand Shows. but this was done to make the first two books feel like as much of an ensemble story as the rest of the series does, and also to give rand realistic power-scaling and ability progression so that they don't have to keep resetting him again at the beginning of the next season. i don't think the show's intentions were "let's change this so it feels like less of a male power fantasy", but rather simply "let's change this so it feels more realistic" - but male power fantasies do naturally get removed when changing the story to feel more realistic, since they tend to be unrealistic. so something like rand conquering half the world, by the time he's doing that, he's gotten enough training in channeling/weapons/politics that it feels realistic for him to be able to do that, so i doubt the show would shy away from portraying it.

(then there's stuff like rand's All Women Must Be Protected But Who Cares If Men Die attitudes where the show IS getting rid of that specifically to get rid of the books' gender essentialism & toxic masculinity, etc. so there definitely are places where they make changes specifically because they want to get rid of book attitudes that the showrunners (and i) don't jive with, and that may have been a *factor* in the s1 & 2 finale changes, but in those instances it was other things that were the main reasons for the changes.)

#anonymous #answered #wot book spoilers

[em-harlsnow]

I wanna talk for a second about Fiona and JimmySteve, and I want to compare them to Gallavich

They have a lot of similarities:

Fiona loved him more than she'll ever love anyone, and I think Jimmy's the same. Just like Ian and Mickey.

Obviously, the whole on and off thing, since both couples had one of them leave and come back again and again.

I think with both Ian and Fiona, their partners outside of jimmy or Mickey are always characters which relate to Jimmy or Mickey. That's weirdly phrased, but I think it's more like both Ian and Fiona would be like 'oh, Mickey used to say stuff like that' or 'Jimmy kissed better'. Like their other relationships are almost a consequence or comparison of their main love.

Both couples also have a hell of a lot of chemistry.

However, they're also so very, very different.

Ian and Mickey are an example of loving someone an insane amount and, against all odds, it works.

Fiona and JimmySteve are an example of loving someone an insane amount and it not working.

Fiona and JimmySteve are a tragic trope; they'll never work. I don't think Fiona goes back to him after she leaves. I hope she finds someone else who she loves, perhaps not as much, because loving someone that much is hard and a little destructive.

Ian and Mickey are not tragic. Their storyline is, but they can't be tragic because they will always work out. They can't stay away from each other. Magnets.

There is certain completed element of Fiona and JimmySteve's goodbye, which every single Gallavich goodbye lacked. Even Mexico, when logically they both knew there was no chance of getting back together (because Mick would eventually come out of prison, ruling the season 1,2 and 6 goodbyes out), lacks a completedness. There's no goodbye, just an 'I love you - fuck you' which almost says 'I'll see you soon.'

Fiona and JimmySteve say goodbye. He tells her he loves her, much like Ian did, but she still needs something else. They could have been together, nothing was keeping them apart that time. (Aside from his compulsive lying - but this is about the couple and not about Jimmy).

They were an example of people falling in love with the wrong person. Love doesn't mean it works. They weren't right for each other, and I think that's one of the saddest things. Just because they loved each other, does not mean they can be together. Sometimes love does not conquer all.

Ian and Mickey are different. They fell in love with the right person, they almost moulded themselves to fit each other better. The reason they stayed apart so long was mostly due to circumstance - which you can argue for Fiona and JS too, but most of their problems could be solved with communication. Half the time I watched Fiona and JS, I felt like they were speaking two different languages. They couldn't understand each other, couldn't hear each other. It's really hard, I think, when you love someone so much, but you just don't fit right. They didn't love each other right.

("Why don't you go cry to your gay dad about it?" "Living in a goddamn slum" "I trust you - that means more to me" "I love you - I think I need something else now" "You need to let me go, you need to let me let you go")

I've always felt like Gallavich were on the same wavelength, they understood each other.

("You love me, and you're gay." "You're sick." "You're so much better than that." "I understand better than anyone: you're afraid of your father, you're afraid of your wife, you're afraid to be who you are." "I love you - What the hell does that even mean? - It means we take care of each other" "I love you, Mickey Milkovich, and if you'll let me, I'd like to spend the rest of my life - Jesus Christ save the fucking speech you pussy.") See, they get each other.

There's a lot to be said about their miscommunication as well, but they clearly get each other, in a way that Fiona and JimmySteve don't. It's like puzzle pieces. Ian and Mickey's pieces fit together, even if there were external forces keeping them apart. Sure, it may not be a perfect fit, but what is in humanity? There's so much beauty in imperfection. Fiona's and Jimmy Steve's pieces didn't fit. There were giant gaps where there shouldn't have been - such as JS's lying problem and Fiona's inability to feel empathy for anything he went through. Have you ever got so frustrated with a puzzle you just try and shove two pieces together so hard because you just want them together so bad? Maybe they'd look better in the puzzle if they went together. No matter how hard you try, they won't fit.

It just doesn't work, and that's so hard to accept. That sometimes, it just does not work.

I thought about this because of the sound trending on TikTok from Ocean's 11.

"Does he make you laugh?"

"He doesn't make me cry."

Anyway, rant over. Again, I'm not talking about the actions of JS or Fiona individually in this, those are whole different essays and I don't like JS enough to rewatch all his scenes and put one together for him. I think I've done one on Fiona though, but my feelings towards her are complicated. I'm talking about them as a couple.

Also, I'm not saying JimmySteve is anything like Mickey, or Fiona is like Ian.

Sorry for the deep stuff, I didn't think this would get so heavy.

#ian gallagher #shameless #gallavich #ian x mickey #mickey milkovich #shameless opinions #fiona gallagher #jimmy steve #Fiona x jimmysteve #love #sometimes it doesn't work and it's hard but it's OKAY #don't force something where it doesn't fit it will only hurt more.

[copaganda-clobberfest]

WELCOME

TO THE FIRST ROUND OF THE COPAGANDA CLOBBERFEST!

“You know that trope? That one trope *Everyone* hates? The trope in which a well meaning antagonist to our heroes, one looking out for the good of a certain community, suddenly does something horrible and drastic to make not only them, but the ideology they stand for the most villainous of all?”

NOW IS THE TIME TO BATTLE THEM OUT! Like Ken dolls, fighting for survival! Like your Polly pockets discarded in the closet, we’ll see which of these bitches jumped that slippery slope harder! Whose character did numbers on y’all, and blew up a bunch of grandmas and babies and hospitals with it!

ROUND ONE

DAENERYS TARGARYEN from GAME OF THRONES vs PRINCE LOTOR from VOLTRON (LEGENDARY DEFENDER)

Dany propaganda (TW: domestic abuse mention, slavery):

“Sold off as a slavewife to a warlord in another country. Slowly rises up gaining the love and trust of the warlords people, eventually becoming their leader after his death. Goes on to conquer another nation and free all the slaves. Deals with her quickly growing list of real and perceived enemies in increasingly awful ways. More stuff happens. Eventually she makes her play for the throne of Kingslanding and forced a swift surrender… but instead snaps… over…? and instead starts killing everyone in the city indiscriminately because the only way to build her great version of the world everyone who even remotely likes the current one has to die.

And then her sorta bf kills her.

Its kinda funny how the US was also founded on a revolution lead by people with Not Great Morals and its media industry loves to now churn out stories where revolutionary figures turn out to be bad guys, actually, so you shouldn’t revolt and just accept your place in their world. Is this actually a British psy-op to get americans to accept the error in the ways and rejoin the UK?”

“daenerys propaganda: the literal in-text justification d&d gave for dany always being secretly evil and destined to massacre innocents was that she was too mean to the slavers that crucified a bunch of children. so they had this domestic violence survivor die of yet more domestic violence. they couldn't even let her go down in battle, she had to be assassinated by her lover in a moment of physical intimacy. (and tyrion, who literally strangled his gf to death and burned a fleet alive, suddenly became the audience avatar fretting about ethics.) the only woman permitted to retain power at the end of the show (sansa) was the one who said being raped and abused made her strong; dany, who explicitly condemned physical and sexual abuse and took steps to eradicate the perpetrators and break the wheel that crushed the oppressed, had to go crazy and die. the script explicitly condemned what they referred to as "liberation theology." d&d are the ultimate centrists and they turned dany into a fox news caricature of an activist.”

Lotor propaganda (TW: xenophobia):

“He wasn't exactly presented as a straight-up villain initially, more like a rogue agent. He wanted to reform his father's evil empire to be less tyrannical and xenophobic (the 2nd one is especially relevant because he's only half Galra. He went from an enemy of the heroes to an ally, then oops! turns out he's actually been a genocidal mass murderer with a god complex this whole time and then he dies in the most horrible way. It's been a while since I watched the show but I will never stop being mad over how they did my boy dirty.”

Always feel free to rb with more propaganda :)

#copaganda clobberfest #copaganda-clobberfest #polls #tumblr polls #tumblr tournament #poll tournament #game of thrones #daenerys targaryen #prince lotor #voltron legendary defender #vld

[repelomuggletum]

Listen, I’ve always been fascinated by Grindeldore...

First of all: yes, I'm aware that it's not exactly the least problematic ship. It canonically suffers from the "kill your gays" trope, and it's only canon because JKR retconed it and didn't care enough to actually write queer characters in her series (though, quite frankly, I wouldn't trust her to write queer characters at all, considering her incredibly harmful ideology).

However, I love the potential. 

We don't see enough of Grindelwald (in the original HP series, because I am consciously ignoring the fact that the Fantastic Beasts movies exist) to know much about his personality or how he would interact with Dumbledore, but he's canonically very powerful and, because he evidently had a large following, it's likely that he was also charismatic. Dumbledore is also both of these things, wielding enough power to not only defeat Grindelwald but also terrify Voldemort, and being charismatic enough to be a politician and essentially a war leader. Watching two people like that interact would be fascinating, especially in a context where they care for each other without agreeing with each other. The tension would be palpable. 

Still, my favorite thing about the ship isn't really the dynamics -- it's the tragedy. Dumbledore may have been misguided in his youth but he eventually grew to recognize that conquering and subjugating muggles would be bad, actually, and he acted accordingly: he began to dedicate a decent portion of his life to advocating not only for muggles and muggleborns but also other marginalized members of society (eg: letting Remus attend Hogwarts and employing Dobby). Now, I'm not saying that he does it well but, considering the state and prejudices of most of wizarding Britain, his actions seem almost radical. This, combined with him actively working against dark lords and being instrumental in their defeats, paints a pretty clear picture of him, morally speaking.

Grindelwald, on the other hand, was obsessed with power and did horrific things for it, never seeming to learn his lesson. Because of his relegation to the status of a minor character, we don't know that much about him other than the fact that, due to the very nature of the time he was active and what war his conflicts were running parallel to (and the fact that his name seems German, or at least Germanic), the narrative is implying that he's wizard H*tler. Naturally, that doesn't frame him in a good light, morally speaking. He never gets a redemption, either -- I've seen it suggested that Grindelwald intentionally lost his final battle against Dumbledore out of love but there's no actual evidence for that in HP, especially considering how it's mentioned that their final duel was legendary, implying that neither of them held back (and, in any case, losing a fight is not really deserving of redemption) -- though an argument can be made in regards to his final moments. The problem is, we’ll never know for certain whether Grindelwald’s refusal to admit that Dumbledore had the Elder Wand was him honoring what was most definitely Dumbledore’s wishes for the knowledge to be kept secret or if he was still upset that he’d lost ownership of it and he didn’t want anyone else, including Voldemort, to get it.

The bottom line is: Grindelwald and Dumbledore are moral opposites. Any reasonably healthy relationship between them would require a massive shift in personal/moral values (and this is not me saying that people with different values can’t have a happy relationship, but Grindelwald and Dumbledore are two extremes that simply aren’t compatible).

And that’s the tragedy of the whole thing.

Dumbledore is forever haunted by the specter of his relationship with Grindelwald. When Rita Skeeter publishes her biography about him, she talks at length about the summer of 1899, when the two had been lovers and co-conspirators. She mentions how he’d been the one to coin the very phrase that Grindelwald would later use to wreak mass havoc across Europe. There’s no way that someone like Albus Dumbledore, who seemed to prize moral virtue, would ever truly cope with what he’d had a hand in creating.

Grindelwald, on the other hand, was defeated by the very man he’d used to care for and is left imprisoned for fifty years with nothing to do but ponder his actions. Again, we don’t know enough about him to know his thoughts, but -- in the case of someone as ruthless and charismatic as a dark lord -- there was probably rage and betrayal, a sense that someone that used to be his had done this to him. 

To me, Grindeldore is not about how they’d be together but rather how they’re affected by the aftermath. Even separated by several countries and fifty years, they will never be rid of each other. Grindelwald was the one to open Dumbledore’s eyes to the injustices of the world and Dumbledore was the one who ultimately foiled all of Grindelwald’s plans.

Grindeldore, in its purest form, is a tragedy, and I find it absolutely fascinating.

#harry potter #hp #meta #harry potter meta #grindeldore #dumbledore x grindelwald #gellert grindelwald #grindelwald #dumbledore #albus dumbledore #also: fuck jkr #terfs dni <3

[songbird-is-crying]

Good Omens 2 may have wrecked my heart and soul and I may not recover until season 3 is released but believe me when I tell you it DELIVERED. I am a sucker for a good confrontation in a love story, and but I (personally) so rarely find them. It is a miscommunication trope, but it’s just a lack of understanding and innate differences in character that are keeping them apart!! rather than someone overhearing something and getting the wrong idea (looking at you, Shrek and the Fiona Sunflower scene). But when it is derived from programmed ideals and nurtured habits and beliefs it is so interesting when they conflict, i mean…

Do y’all understand how narratively SATISFYING it will be when aziraphale and crowley come together in the end and learn how to be with each other?? Just be?? The catharsis we will all experience because these two motherfuckers will have gone through the abyss or the bottomless pit or whatever the rock bottom stage is called in the hero’s journey only to come out of it?? And still choose to love each other?? Do you know how strong their love has got to be to pull that off??

Because this show is all about how love wins. LOVE WINS!! Not in some low effort, poor design quality slogan to grab your attention as well as your wallet in a target pride merch section, but in a real sense that love conquers all. Ok, that is still cheesy, but it really does!! The lengths that people go for each other because they love, it can’t be beat!! Like, the fact that Crowley’s and Aziraphale’s Miracle Magic Time is strongest when they work together because they are in LOOVVEEE. Good Omens is not about choosing a side and fighting to the death for loyalty’s sake, it’s about loving someone to the extreme that you will go to any lengths for them, fight to protect them, care for them, want to make the world better for them!! That is a force that cannot be beaten because love refuses to bow to anything!!Because love is bloodthirsty and raw and domestic and charming, and the breakup basically guarantees that we WILL see this force in action because we already KNOW their love is strong and deep enough to withstand this…

GIRL…

When these two come together in the end, I will fall to my knees in worship and make a god out of Neil Gaiman Himself because they will have earned it, because they will have come to a better understanding of themselves and be prepared to love without hesitation and without barriers. And it will be so beautiful.

Can you honestly sacrifice this future just for the instant gratification of them getting together at the end of season 2?? Can you look me in the eye and tell me that you prefer them living in unresolved, nonverbal ignorance because you’re too afraid of making them face their fears of being alone and being without purpose first??

Season 1 made me realize my personal philosophy on the nature of humanity and choice and sides, but now I really see that it’s about choosing to be on the side of what you love, and how that loyalty is the only true thing and the universe.

(But before you think “well, Crowley was ready to give up everything and love Aziraphale, but Aziraphale chose not to be on his side and love him” you forget that Aziraphale wants to fix the system to be fair to people like Crowley because he loves him and believes him to be the most “good” out of anyone he’s met, even himself! He loves him so much he wants to fix the world for him, and he did what he thought was right by not wavering and committing to his mission, even if that meant losing him!!)

God, I love this show so much. The book, the radio, my precious vinyl records of the soundtrack (love you David Arnold, muah), and even the graphic novel I will never see for at least a year, it’s just all so incredibly important to me. Good Omens has helped me realize what I truly believe in and has really influenced my outlook on life. And wow that is cheesy, but it’s ok that this show makes me insane, how it makes me ramble on tumblr at midnight because of the appreciation it has given me for the world around me, because I feel so much love doing so.

I wish I could express everything this show has made me feel. But my feelings are simply ineffable.

I LOVE LOVE!! I LOVE LIFE!! I LOVE EVERYTHING!! THE WORLD IS GOOD AND KIND BECAUSE WE HAVE PEOPLE AND THINGS AND PASSIONS TO CARE ABOUT!!!

#I AM SO NORMAL ABOUT THIS SHOW #SO NORMAL #NORMALIZE HYPERFIXATING ON TWO OLD OCCULT BEINGS WHO LOVE BUT ARE ALSO DUMB #good omens #good omens 2 #good omens spoilers #ineffable husbands #crowley #aziraphale #i am an aziraphale apologist #shout out to the three people who will read this in full #know that i love you #and you are valid #and no matter what happens you mean so much to me #neil gaiman #he’s here too

[kingdoms-and-empires]

I chose the OP option (because I can't decide which stats I wanna focus on 😭) and I developed a little head canon to explain why my character is good at everything. In his former life he was less than OP. He was one of those people who have potential, but never applied himself, out of a mixture of laziness, procrastination, and a crippling fear of failure! When he died he was extremely disappointed in himself. He always figured that he'd pull himself together in the future, but now he's dead and he never achieved anything he wanted, other than gathering some useless facts (like maybe ancient technology such as the treadwheel crane perhaps 👀). When he got his second chance he decided he was gonna make full use of it. The instant he was able to comprehend the language of the world and was able to read, he'd sneak books and accelerate his education through reading things someone as young as him shouldn't understand. He also would go through physical training, again in secret, and watch the guards train in swordsmanship in hopes of picking something up. Since for years he had little to no responsibilities, and the mind of an adult, he has been able to devote almost all his time to developing his mind and body

TL;DR: my MC went from a procrastinator to a try hard and it payed off

Nice headcanon!

i think alot of people would be similar if they had their old memories and would give themselves a strong head start

Its really interesting to think about how you'd really act in a similar situation to the MC as you yourself.

The MC is canon to be "good" from the start, and its up to the player to choose how the MC progresses over time...honestly the best reincarnation works ive seen out there arent the traditional Isekai protag animes, its actually works that deal with a woman being reincarnated or isekai'd. Either a reincarnated villainess trope, or general isekai trope work, the ones with female leads are generally better in my opinion since it usually aint a power fantasy

Eh idk where i went with all this but it was fun to think about haha, so thanks!

Oh, some of my favorite anime that deal in reincarnation and isekai with female leads or kingdom simulators in general that do it well with male or female leads are these:

Fuuuuuck youre making me break out my old bookmarks and im seeing my mangas are now updated with new chapters...dozens of new chapters!!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH I WANNA STOP WRITING AND READ INSTEAD

This one has adorable art that I feel in love with as the MC starts as a baby lol, and the MC is competent, which is really nice

The MC is alright, she tries doing stuff to get out of shitty circumstances but the real highlight of the story are the titular Monster Duchess and her husband. Nooo idea how it is now but theres literally double the chapters now from where i left of and im so tempted to read lolololol

OMFGGGGG I FORGOT ABOUT THIS!! This is a fav of mine since it deals with the cinderella story! The MC is a reincarnated chick who plays as the evil stepmother in cinderella's story, but omfg its such a good twist on the trope and it really does alot of things well, and THERES SO MANY NEW CHAPTERSSSSSS

YOOOOOOOOOO I forgot this one too lmaoooo ima bad fan haha

Anyways, this is another great subversion of the reincarnating trope since the MC is on her THIRD reincarnated life, and she actually conquered EVERYTHING in her second life. But she got betrayed and killed by people and she said mannnnnn fuck this, ima get hitched with the dude who was nice to me in my old life and never asked for shit! And so begins a funny as romance story lol, GOD DAMN AND THEYRE ON THE SECOND SEASON NOOOOOOW

Someone either here or on Discord recommended this to me, and whoever did so, I love you! This is a weirdly realistic take on the historical figures of the Sengoku period having to deal with this weird girl who appears to have come out of nowhere but knows a bit of practical modern knowledge that helps Oda Nobunaga win some victories. Honestly, i really appreciate how grounded it is for a manga! The truth of the matter is, we really wouldnt be able to do that much if we were in her shoes either lol!

Bruhhhh when i tell you i squealed when i saw how many chapters this has now! Without a doubt, this is my favorite! The MC is hyper competent, she uses her femineity to her advantage and doesnt fight against it like other works do when they wanna show their female lead "isnt like other girls", and shes honestly such a joy to watch running circles around other people that screwed her over in her past life. Read this one for sure!!!!

Another competent female lead how got reincarnated and has to survive death flags by marrying one of the romance options, but the world system keeps screwing her over and its funny to see how she has to navigate trying to romance obviously shitty romance options who sound really hot (like the enemies to lovers trope would NOT be easy in real life lmao) or (the crazy mfer who makes you scared but horni)

Read this and then decide if you'd survive lol

AHGHGHGHHHH This is so good!!! Basically a girl has to become the stepmother to children how are close in age to her. She tries to do things her own way at first, but she dies. So she gets reincarnated and tries to do better the second time around. If you wanna read a good female lead doing introspection and learning from her past mistakes, read this. Its really good!

Alrighty. This is honestly a guilty pleasure, and should really be read after reading alot of villainess or female lead reincarnation manga to basically cleanse your palate with this funny ass story lol. Instead of playing by the rules of society like the previous stories, the main character does "not like other girls" very well and its enjoyable to watch lol! Use it once you get tired of the previously mentioned ones!

Annnnnnd that's it! Thank you for making me out myself lmaooooo

#kingdomsandempires #question #manga #villainess isekai

[doodlegirl1998]

Hi. I just got an idea for a gamer au. Not sure if you know but some fics play with the concept of game for Izu. "What if Izu has a quirk that allows him to see life as a literal game?"

My take: Izu has this quirk waken in him when he was 8 years old (bk is a PoS and calls him deku) now the difference here is how...the quirk does interact with Izu and people can see it. My main gripe with this trope is how ...no one ever touched how sus would for Izu to "obey" quirk that only talks to him and no one can see it.

So...in this au, the quirk has the form of a green bunny (of course!) And her first priority is to protect Izu and she acess the situation. Aldera is not the best place for him and Inko is not...a great parent.

She bestow Izu with a quirk, a beginer one. Izu can control the perception of light one see.

Everyone is jaw drop. Quirkless Izu is no longer quirkless! Then everyone move on. Bk continues to be a PoS (his issue is with Izu, not the fact he is QUIRKLESS)

Bunny level up with him saying Izu to open his others quirks needs more stats and time "but this one will do"

We see them bond ad Bunny is now the mom of Izu. Inko? She doesnt change much she is relieved her son has a quirk but never asks about the bruises he got.

Bunny second mission is to elevate Izu's self love. She even hears Izu's rambles on how to defeat BK. "Cold water will do" bunny is pleased.

Here the thing...foreshadow for Bunny being a lovecraftian THING. Smth even Dark Shadow is wary and cowering.

Izu's life changes...not bc he has a quirk but bc he has someone on his side.

Izu meets AM who is impressed at Izu (and confused at bk as why he is being so rude to Izu "he saved him...there's smth wrong here") and wants to give him ofa - bunny has talked about afo and how he is a joke among the gods, oh yeah in this the outer gods messed up humans 200 years ago and the results are quirks- and Izu declines. Bunny chews AM out and drops Nana's name.

AM is shocked.

Bunny:😒 do I look human to you?

Nana is also shocked. But curious. They all are curious.

UA invasion begins and Izu saves Aizawa from Shig...and starts to belittling him and Shig is not having it. "He saved you! Show some gratitude!" Bunny is scheming.

Aizawa is a PoS. Bk is not at ua but he tries to appeal, only Aizawa hears him. The staff hates him for that.

The mall date begins and...well, bunny is very pleased to see Shig did take him to a nice cafe while he is bitch talking about his boss and stain. See in this version Shig wants to kill afo and accepted the mission of invade ua bc he thought afo would share some potential weakness to him.

Izu:🤨my dude. Afo is a moron.

Shig:🙄tell me about it.

Is bunny plotting for Izu to take down afo? Maybe. She is a ride or die here. If Izu wants to conquer the world...she is on his side.

Bonus: people get a bit unnerved by bunny, especially if she just stare at you- is she seeing your soul? Your future? Your death?- but Shig is strangely cool with that.

Bunny is scheming.

Oh bonus 2

Ochako confessed to Izu - right the time he gets a big intership🤨- and tells how he is plain but she likes him anyway.

Izu...turns her down.

Ocha:😮

Izu:🤨you called me plain! I think you are plain too so maybe we shouldnt hang out

Ocha:😮

Mina:😮

Izu left

(Not to insinuante Ocha is a gold digger but I cant really see her a love interest nor his friend anymore. Kudos for those who can)

Bunny is scheming! Izu is plotting too.

Hi @mikeellee 👋,

I certainly don't remember seeing this trope done before for Izuku but it certainly sounds like an interesting concept. An Izuku that sees life as a game, very cool!

Also I love your green bunny guide for Izuku that even makes Dark Shadow wary. Ooo! Perhaps Izu and Tokoyami could have a close bond in this considering the other worldly nature of their quirks? I do like the explanation you gave for quirks in this AU too.

It's so sweet that Shig and Izu have a respect and fondness of each other in this version of events and that Aizawa gets called out and Bakugou never makes it into U.A lol.

I do like how in the Bonus 2 omake Izu shows respect for himself by calling out Ocha calling him plain but still asking him out. It's strange how Hori treated Ocha and Izu - she's meant to be his endgame love interest yet Hori gives their friendship hardly any focus, they don't spend time together much at all or are shown / referenced to speak to each other and has her do things like calling him "Deku" all the time and "plain" which undermine the ship.

#Izuocha critical #aizawa critical #anti bakugou #anti bakugou katsuki

[greenhappyseed]

Sympathy for the Demon Lord: Why is AFO Crying?

AFO crying in Ch.369 has set off a fresh round of “AFO loves Yoichi and wants to be with him” commentary, so let’s look at the evidence! Is AFO a man or is he a monster? A monster of a man or very manly monster?

In Ch.193, AFO says outright that he loves Yoichi. But in context, AFO states his love while being a quirkist asshole. He’s saying he “still” loves his brother, despite his brother’s weakness. (Further, AFO calls this “meeting [Yoichi] halfway” and questions whether Yoichi is more egotistical than him for maintaining a strict ideology that denies the “helpfulness” of AFO’s order.) Of course, even though AFO explicitly acknowledges Yoichi’s weakness, AFO has no issue allowing his bodyguard to slam Yoichi to the ground and pin him, simply saying “Be gentle. He’s a fragile one” rather than “stop” or “let him go.” AFO is using his bodyguard to display his power over Yoichi while acting casual. (AFO subscribes to the same school of thought as Cersei in Game of Thrones that power is power.) AFO also has no problem imprisoning Yoichi and hiding him away as AFO unites people and gains new “friends.”

Similarly, at the end of 193, AFO tells an imprisoned Yoichi “you matter to me” and invites him to “walk this path with me,” but it’s all in the context of AFO’s “dream come true” and how “new reality” doesn’t “follow the old playbook” (specifically, a trope-y and cliched old comic book). We now know AFO’s dream is to “thwart the future of the whole world” and eliminate all individual variation so the world chooses to follow his order. Does AFO really want his flesh-and-blood brother — the (seemingly) quirkless, physically weak, idealistic, and obstinate man — by his side? Or does Yoichi represent a defiance AFO desperately wants to conquer? A pebble in his path, perhaps…

Upon stealing New Order in Ch.333 and believing he had obtained the power to easily steal OFA, AFO addresses Yoichi directly his monologue. Instead of expressing any caring about his brother, he gloats about how he won by disregarding the “old playbook”: “This is where it truly begins…Yoichi…the stories I read with you that day…those comics. You thought I didn’t realize there was more to the story? Wrong. I knew how it would go, so I chose to stop reading there!” In other words, AFO knows the villain “always loses in the end,” so he’s decided to never reach the ending. He has planned for a long (eternal) life because the winner is the one who stays standing the longest. In Ch.329, AFO even says obtaining OFA is only his “mid-game” goal, NOT the final one. If that’s true, then reuniting with his beloved brother clearly isn’t AFO’s motivation.

Jumping back to Ch. 287, we see this played out when the brothers reunite for a real-time interaction. AFO says “It’s such a shame that I could never make you mine!” and sounds affectionate towards Yoichi…until 2 pages later, when AFO tells Tomura that Yoichi and Nana “are but a couple departed people who fell to me!” In other words, AFO meant that he could never make Yoichi and OFA his, but TomurAFO can. AFO was never expressing lost love for his brother; he was just doing the thing he does so well: Gloating over his victory and rubbing it in other people’s faces as a power play. (There’s also the implication that AFO killed Yoichi by saying Yoichi “fell to me,” although I don’t think the manga has actually confirmed this yet. It could be that one of AFO’s “friends” exercised their own free will to kill Yoichi. Or maybe Yoichi died after trying to use OFA for the first time against his brother. Worst case scenario, Second killed Yoichi….)

It’s also notable how AFO lumps Yoichi with Nana. We know from Kamino that AFO thought Nana was a “fool of a woman” for putting “her stupid ideals first, without the power to back them up.” He also said Nana’s actions were “pretty embarrassing for me, as the father of One For All.” Does AFO feel the same way about Yoichi as he does with “foolish” Nana? Is Yoichi an embarrassment to the King of Quirks? Does AFO want a victory over his weak and idealistic brother to cement his own strength? Is Yoichi’s existence a threat to AFO as a powerless blood relative or as someone who, in hindsight, DID have the strength to back up his ideals?

Finally, there’s one line from the Star fight in Ch.322 that I think is relevant. When TomurAFO is close to swiping New Order, he says to Star, “Me and myself make better use of your resources.” AFO believed Star wasn’t using New Order to its fullest potential, and he could do better. AFO is insulted by someone underusing a powerful quirk and gladly substitutes his own judgment for the original quirk holder’s ideals. What we see with Yoichi is the opposite — AFO could decry Yoichi’s ideals all he wanted, but couldn’t make a “better use” of Yoichi, so into the vault he went. AFO then had to give Yoichi a quirk to even try to use him.

In short, it’s not clear at all why AFO is crying in Ch.369, but it’s not likely out of love for his dead brother (especially not until we get confirmation of how/why Yoichi died). I would, however, like to float a possibility that has nothing to do with Yoichi. What if AFO previously knew Second and maybe Third? What if Second & Third were originally some of AFO’s “friends” before splitting apart? (Or even real friends?) Second has emphasized a few times how his quirk is different than it was in his time. Did he get it from AFO? Or did they work together such that AFO is very familiar with the old version of Second’s quirk?

Maybe AFO is crying because he has to kill his former friend — who only has a quirk due to AFO’s own kindness — because said ex-friend stole his brother out from under his nose, created a new superquirk using his familial bloodline without asking him, and then used said superquirk to lead a rebellion army against him. The nerve of that guy.

#bnha 369 #mha 369 #mha #bnha #my hero academia #boku no hero academia #all for one #AFO #TomurAFO #afo’s vestiges #bnha yoichi #tiny yoichi reading his little comic #second ofa user #bnha meta #mha meta

[campbyler]

just finished ch 7 and it’s 3am so my thoughts may not be intelligible But i just have to mention that with every new chapter (especially as things are picking up), i am just more and more amazed and impressed by the fact that all three of you are writing this story.

it was really clear to me from the beginning that you guys were super great with being cohesive, seamless, etc. between chapters despite having multiple authors. nothing’s ever felt disjointed or drastically different which is a feat in itself.

but i think what’s really been on my mind recently, especially with chapter six and chapter seven in mind, is that there’s actually SO much depth added from this being a collaboration.

i don’t want to assume anything of course, (all my knowledge comes from a little over a year and for one fandom so it’s small in scope) but the more i think about it, the more i’m just beyond impressed at how the events of each chapter seem to pair so well with their respective authors.

i don’t know if this makes any sense at all so i’m sorry if it doesn’t but. i guess i just mean that the range of emotions and experiences are just broadened so much by the “dividing and conquering” aspect. maybe i’m going insane i don’t know but?? there’s something about the stargazing, makeshift-sleeping-bag-cuddling, practical introspection at war with yearning, vibes of chapter seven that just has suni written all over it. and then to go back to chapter six with the excitement of the camp games, the thrill of the competition, the type of bright summer day that’s so visceral you might as well be there yourself just from reading about it?? andi 100%.

(and the same could be said for every chapter with all three of you it’s just that the most recent two have been set during very specific events haha)

again i am sorry if this does not make sense but i’m just trying to say that i can’t think of a more effective way to execute a collaboration; it’s cohesive and unified but you guys are all playing to your strengths so well. common girldummy w

hello!!!!! sorry for taking One Million Years to get to this ask but i wanted to answer this when i fully had the energy to respond to the whole thing bc it’s soooooooo thoughtful HELLO.

first of all i’m so happy you enjoyed! the response to ch07 has been amazing and seeing how much everyone has been loving wilderness week has been so nice, especially because it was such a change from the usual camp setting!!

SECOND, and the part of this ask that i have been rereading and fawning over ever since it came in, i loveeeee that observation so much 😭 i definitely definitely agree, and i hadn’t specifically thought of it this way before but you’re so right! i think it’s partially because we ended up with chapters that each of us had come up with a key idea/central scene for, so it makes sense that they would slowly start to incorporate tropes that each one of us is partial to! there’s a chapter coming up that has andi written allllllll over it lol and not to spoil ch09 (thea’s baby, as we all know) but from start to finish it is the epitome of Thea Wiseatom fr. collaborating is super cool because between three people, there’s usually always a fresh perspective/new way to write something so that it doesn’t get repetitive like it might with just the singular author’s pov, and i’m giggling and twirling my hair thinking about how our styles have been distinct enough for you to notice! genuinely one of my favorite type of comments to get so thank you!!

#again sorry we are taking a million years to clear out the ch07 asks #ask box should be open by the end of the day probs #asks #ch07 #THIS WAS SO SWEET #😭😭😭

[tani-b-art]

Maxine’s Baby: The Tyler Perry Story

Perry’s legacy in film, in Black American culture is imprinted. Generationally. What he’s done in the industry is groundbreaking. His non-traditional approach and method to all he’s accomplished is a testament to what we’ve always done as Black Americans when it comes to everything — having a seat at our own table we built. He broke the mold and shattered the glass ceiling. He truly has the Black American, ancestral lineage of perseverance running through his blood!

I also learned so much more about him and his relationship with his mother and his mother in general that I hadn’t known. Also, parts of him speaking about his mother connected a lot of why he has certain perspectives on life and relationships. The Black women in his life (his mother and aunt who is hero-like in my opinion for the type of action of love) truly played the biggest roles in his shaping as a young boy to becoming a man. We got an inside view of his mind and the journey of him becoming who he is.

Seeing the enormity of his success just is positively moving and stirring. I found myself super proud with the scenes of the grand opening of his ultimate studio! Those parts of the docu had me feeling like I could conquer anything. All of the studio grand opening touched my heart and made me smile tears of joy in the simple fact that he is the embodiment of our ancestors’ love, hope and courage. He built on what they started and I can feel them saying, “Well done.”

It’s moving and emotionally charging.

He also allowed us into the parts of his life as a father to his son. You can tell all that he does and is doing is to be able to give out the love he wished he could’ve gotten from the father-figure in now life. His relationship with his son is so beautiful.

The intimate portrait, bio styled documentary was a great watch. I definitely recommend.

Now….I must speak on the issues that I took with aspects of his footprint on the landscape of film.

Perry loses me when he says things like, “…what we’ve done to each other as Black people who are successful…”. He referenced the boycotting Amos ‘N’ Andy had received in its time along with Alice Walker’s The Color Purple. Amos ‘N’ Andy’s controversy: this show (was a TV adaptation of the radio sitcom of two white men who “adopted stereotypical dialect, intonations, and character traits that had been established in the blackface minstrel tradition in the 1800s”) came out in the midst of the Jim Crow era. An era we all know served to present imagery of Black Americans in racist propaganda replete with racist stereotypes and tropes. And the actors weren’t white men in blackface but actual Black men in these roles. Which is also the similar criticisms Perry’s Madea character receives.

The two shouldn’t be paralleled. Amos ‘N’ Andy was clearly stereotypical mockery (and no condemning the actors at the time) while Walker’s book is “inspired, in part, by a story that Walker's sister told her, about a love triangle involving their grandfather.” It is an account of real life experiences—a real depiction of what Black people, specifically Black women, were going through in the early 1900s in the Deep South. On the heels of freedom (this is post American slavery with the signing of the Emancipation Proclamation) yet still facing the aftershocks of “ending” slavery (racism has never ended), Black women still faced slave-like treatment from former plantation & slave owners and now sexism & patriarchal treatment from their partners (I say now not in a sense of this being completely new). All while gaining more freedom in their outspokenness for the domestic plights they faced with their significant others and demanding equal rights.

Walker’s book and the following film adaptation received backlash on account of the increasing fracture between Black women and Black men in a post “free” society.

Perry also mentioned the not so pleasant views Langston Hughes had with Zora Neale Hurston and her usage of the Black Southern dialect in her writings. That too is incomparable because again, she conveyed real life. These were not caricatures she fictionalized for comic relief.

(please leave Alice Walker and Zora Neale Hurston’s works alone in correlation to yours)

Or in an appearance from Killer Mike (in Perry’s documentary) alluding to the fact that other groups of people don’t take issue with the negative depictions of their people in film.

One — yes they have and do. Has he spoken to any other ethnic group to ask?

Two — yes, your core demographic, who is Black, will have the most dialogue regarding your work. Who else would? White people? No, because you don’t make art for them. Your work is rooted through the lens of Black Americans. Of course the biggest critique will come from us.

We have a very different relationship with our own country and the world at large. Centuries of ridicule in minstrel shows with not Black (because yes, it wasn’t only white people performing in blackface to mock us) people donning blackface or in film with dangerous propaganda that single-handedly created a racist, terrorist group (k k k). We are still dealing with the aftermath of these harmful depictions and are in constant corrective mode. It’s a continual action.

He spoke about intention as well. And while I don’t believe Perry’s intention of the Madea character (or any of his characters in his films, shows or plays—that’s a different conversation…among other talking points surrounding him can be discussed in an entirely separate talk) was to be problematic it is very damaging to the representation of Black American women — two things can exist. Especially considering all the negative portrayals and images of us over the many, many, many years in all forms of media that the character fits into (again no condemnation on any of the actresses at the time).

But with everything I’ve said, Madea will just always have a kindred connection with me.

I was first introduced to Tyler Perry years ago from a cousin who lent me a VHS of both “Madea’s Family Reunion: The Play” and “Diary of a Mad Black Woman: The Play”. And when Madea came across my screen in that loud shiny red funeral squirt suit, there was an instant likability! I laughed more than I had from anything scripted — in fact, his plays were the first time I had ever watched a stage play. And from then, I have always had a special place in my heart for his plays and for Madea! I purchased 6 DVDs of his plays afterwards and the “Diary” film while I was in my freshman year in college and those plays got me through my first year.

I am glad he’s since retired the character and opened a new chapter of the work he’s putting out but I can acknowledge that Madea and the work pre-Madea’s retirement has been and is a source of joy for me.

And I think that’s what Tyler wants to do with all that he does.

Bring us joy.

#Maxine’s Baby: The Tyler Perry Story #Tyler Perry #cinema #Black America #film talk #Black American cinema #film industry #Southern culture #Black tumblr #Black American culture #might be typos

[sendpseuds]

For the ask game: I'm going to be obnoxious and ask a shit ton but no pressure and just do the ones you feel like and/or have time for

How do you choose whose POV to write in?

What’s something about your writing that you’re proud of?

Is there a trope or idea that you’d really like to write but haven’t yet?

Does what you like to write differ from what you like to read?

How do you deal with writing pressure, whether internal or external?

What motivates you during the writing process?

Do you have any writing advice you want to share?

Dude. I have a surprise five-hour layover... I'm here to answer some questions hahaha

That being said, this first one...

1. I have no idea. POV is a real FEEL thing for me. I've noticed some patterns, for example, I tend to give the more tender smut scenes to whoever happens to be fucking Obi-Wan because I just feel like a soft Obi-Wan is more interesting through someone else's eyes, and Obi-Wan often gets his POV when he's hurting [of course].

This upcoming fic, [the infamous disaster threesome] has been a real lesson in perspective. Writing the same scene [especially a very intense and way too long smut scene] from three different perspectives has been WAY harder than I expected, but I really feel like it's only making me a stronger writer.

2. I'm really proud of the way my writing has evolved. I recently re-read a few early chapters and found myself desperately wanting to edit them. Not because I wanted to change any of the story or felt that my words weren't good enough, but because I can see how much I was clinging to traditional formatting.

I remember feeling like I needed to write in paragraphs and would get nervous when they didn't look as long as I thought they should.

Now, I've learned to embrace the return button.

Again.

And again.

And again.

Now, I'm writing the way I wanted to from the beginning but thought was WRONG.

I'm really proud of just letting myself write the way I want to.

3. I'm sure there are a million. The one my brain keeps coming back to over and over again is a Sith!Obi-Wan AU where HE is the one who tries to conquer Mandalore.

I have the vaguest of outlines and it's messy messy messy and maybe SOMEDAY I'll figure it all out, but alas, for now, it's just a mess

4. I... I don't read a lot. I'm a very slow reader which I've always been extremely insecure about [not that I think any of you would judge me on that but still].

This is actually one of the reasons I love fanfic so much.

With so many shorter works, I feel like I can consume just as many stories as my more literary friends in the same time.

5. NOT WELL! hahaha

Right now, the pressure I'm putting on myself is so intense, every time I open a doc I sort of just stare at the cursor until I close it. I actually haven't written more than a few sentences in, like, two weeks, because I just keep psyching myself out.

I'm working on it hahaha.

6. It was always FEEDBACK. Comments and Kudos are like a fucking drug that I need to ween myself off of, and what has replaced it had mostly been just fucking around? Just spitballing, brainstorming, and making stupid jokes and headcanons [mostly with @yourfavoritefridge who never yells at me].

7. A throwback to your second question: just write how you want to write.

Stop pretending that there is a CORRECT way to write. There isn't. Language is flexible. Grammar is made up. Punctuation is an incredible tool.

Write how YOU write.

🖤

#writing ask game #ask me anything #stuck at the airport

[reginarubie]

The mythology series [Jonsa] ~ Orpheus and Eurydice reversal ft. Drogo and Dany

Ciao my Jonsa folks, and lurkers and lovely anons and everyone around! As I've spoken numerous times (thank you to all the lovely anons that actually forwarded their opinions and considerations because you were fundamental for this meta!) I realized quite of sudden that another possible mythological parallel for our Jonsa had completely gone over my head without my noticing, and decided to try and contextualize it in our asoiaf mythology metas.

The myth is the one and only of Orpheus and Eurydice, the heartbreaking story of an unconventional hero (Orpheus) and his unconventional methods to try and save his beloved wife (Eurydice), and whilst Orpheus fails (wether by choice, or because overcome by feelings) these two tropes of the lost spouse and of failing to save a loved one are most prominent in Sansa's arc, and Sansa seems, to me, as if she fits the bill of the gender reversal Orpheus.

As always, the premise remains unchanged. Myth and legend as well as history are layered matters, with layers and concepts often beyond my comprehension as I am in no way an expert (I only collect evidence and research the matter and try to draw my own conclusions). So yes, we do it for fun, yes any input by anyone who knows better or simply has a different opinion or interpretation is welcome and appreciated.

Now, on the seatbelts, we're in for another ride!

Orpheus and Eurydice, the unconventional hero and his lost spouse, Ovid ~ the North remembers/if I look back I am lost, asoiaf, GRRM

As always, another premise, no these fantastic artworks are not mine, I merely collect them on internet to make the whole meta more aesthetically pleasing, so credit to the artists and if any would like their art removed because reasons just let me know!

But, this on the art I must say, I chose these four pieces for a very particular reason, also displayed by the quotes I've chosen to parallel and also the order in which they are put is significant and I will discourse on a bit as of why.

First raw, we have Orpheus and Eurydice by sir E.J. Poynter (some of you may have guessed it) which I chose for the colors, I know I said gender swapped, so Orpheus is supposed to be Sansa and Eurydice Jon, but it does hold interest that Orpheus here is shown with dark hair and the colors of House Targaryen, red and black, paralleling visually Jon whilst Eurydice has reddish hair and wears the colors of House Stark, white and green, doing the same for Sansa; also with the detail of them holding hands (which I will return to shortly) and besides it a lovely Jonsa piece in which Sansa looks back at Jon and holds his hand beneath a gentle snowfall.

Second raw we have Orpheus and Eurydice by Emil Neide in which Orpheus is shown facing the three headed dog of Hell (Cerberus) with his harp set aside, and a staff in his hand, he faces forward with intent and determination (doesn't look like a man about to be overcome by impatience and feelings) whilst Eurydice follows almost completely naked half in shade. This piece gave me a very strange vibe I would no expect of this myth because Orpheus looks determined and conquering (especially with the addition of that staff in his hand) and there is no physical touch whatsoever between him and Eurydice, almost like love is not foremost, not like the power of this man facing off the three-headed dog (again with the three headed imaginary — three headed dragon, the symbol of House Targaryen and the three cities Daenerys conquers on her campaign east after Drogo dies) which is why I have chosen the piece besides it for Daenerys in which she's shown conquering and determined whilst she thinks of her lost dream of sitting on the IT with Drogo and Rhaego. They gave me the very same vibe, so to speak (also it's important the lack of physical contact between Orpheus and Eurydice in Neide's painting with the quote I've chosen for Daenerys which is also the same one which makes the whole connection between Daenerys and Drogo and Orpheus and Eurydice believable.

First things first, let's speak about queen Proserpine and her look-alikes in these two different version of contextualization of the myth in asoiaf.

Proserpine, queen of the Underworld ~ Melisandre of Asshai and Mirri Maz Duur, priestesses

The art of Proserpine (first one to the left) is from the costume concept of queen Proserpine by Anna Biagiotti, from Monteverdi's “Favola d'Orfeo” .

But if the destinies refuse my vow,  And no remission of her doom allow;  Know, I’m determin’d to return no more;  So both retain, or both to life restore. — Ovid, Metamorphoses, the Myth of Orpheus and Eurydice

Mirri Maz Duur sat back on her heels and studied Daenerys through eyes as black as night. "There is a spell." Her voice was quiet, scarcely more than a whisper. "But it is hard, lady, and dark. Some would say that death is cleaner. I learned the way in Asshai, and paid dear for the lesson. My teacher was a bloodmage from the Shadow Lands." (...) “I had to save him” — GRRM, AGOT, Daenerys VIII

"I can show you." Melisandre draped one slender arm over Ghost, and the direwolf licked her face. "The Lord of Light in his wisdom made us male and female, two parts of a greater whole. In our joining there is power. Power to make life. Power to make light. Power to cast shadows." “Shadows” the world seemed darker when he said it. — GRRM, ADWD, Jon VI

It is very interesting that both in the contextualization for Drogo and Dany and Jon and Sansa we have a woman coming, or who has studied, in Asshai and that both use the shadow magic and blood magic taught there and there learned to resuscitate the gender swapped Eurydices.

I've already considered briefly the fact that every time a character is resurrected in asoiaf it seems there is a foreign who has learned the prayers and chants, and magics of Asshai and its magic involved:

Beric Dondarrion is resurrected by Thoros of Myr, a red priest

Lady Stoneheart is resurrected by Beric Dondarrion using the prayer and magic of the Last Kiss learned from Thoros

Drogo is kept alive by Mirri Maz Duur on insistence by Daenerys Targaryen, using magic she has learned from a shadow binder in Asshai

Daenerys Targaryen (yes this one is controversial but I have my theory about resurrection in asoiaf and Daenerys has been resuscited/born again in that fire and there is a reason for it) has learned from Mirri Maz Duur and is using the folklore talk she probably received from her brother to make the blood sacrifices required (I've spoken on it at length in this serie, so I won't digress on it beyond here)

Jon Snow, currently laying dead in a pool of his own blood and snow at Castle Black, where coincidentally is Melisandre of Asshai another red priestess (who is foreshadowed, by the show, to be the one performing the rite on Jon to resurrect him).

So, it comes to mind how there is always involved someone who knows blood magic, and dark sorcery from Asshai in whatever capacity (Thoros knows it as prayer, just as Mel does; Mirri Maz Duur calls it magic)

Now, in the myth of Orpheus and Eurydice the queen of the Underworld, Proserpine, whose heart melted by the young's grief coupled with her husband's sadness at his story convinced both deities to grant Orpheus to take back his wife to the land of the living grieving on him the duty he would fail— not turning to look at Eurydice until they're out of the Underworld — a duty he was probably fated to fulfill from the very beginning.

Proserpine or Kore, or Persephone is a very layered figure and often the limits of each layer does not coincide perfectly with the one under it or above it, so to speak.

In various versions of the same myth the deities of the Underworld are either well disposed to Orpheus or mocking of him and ‘true’ love and Proserpine sees the throne at the centre of this matter, wether she and her husband offered genuinely Orpheus his wife back or presented to him only her shadow and deceived him and set him up to fail. It is said that Hades wept and she felt her heart melt for Orpheus grief, but in other version, both deities are mocking of Orpheus and his attempt to deceive them to get back his wife, promising his life when he would not give it.

Proserpine herself is the goddess of spring and queen of the underworld thus she reconcile in herself two worlds apparently inconciliabile. This dualistic nature is persevered in the asoiaf form she takes both as Melisandre that as Mirri.

As goddess of spring she is goddess of rebirth and all new lives, she is a creational power in a way as goddess of fertility as well; as queen of the underworld she is an unyielding force not be trifled with, often more ruthless than her own husband from whom she enjoyed intriguing autonomy.

[In some versions of this very myth she's the one who grants Orpheus the allowance to leave the Underworld with his wife and imposing of him the duty not to look back to her... her duality is even more starkly clear when we think of the way she disposed of Theseus' friend who tried to steal her from Hades, and ended up by her own idea, permanently fixed on a seat in the Underworld, forever unable to move even an inch.]

This duality she has, and in some ways the influence she enjoys on her king, is without doubt completely filled by Melisandre, to a lesser degree by Mirri Maz Duur.

Melisandre of Asshai is a foreign — in the same way as Proserpine is a foreign to the Underworld — woman (who has suffered terrible abuse and has been sold as a slave, who never once enjoyed enough freedom) who has enchanted Stannis Baratheon, her king, and on whom she exercises a great deal of influence. Melisandre is shown capable to dispose of enemies thanks to her dark sorceries and blood magic and create the shadow of a life to forward her goals but as she often repeats she has the power to both unmake life and make it. This duality is basically the same one recognized to Proserpine especially if we consider the degree of influence Mel enjoys on Stannis — as men around consider her, his red woman and true queen — with the degree of freedom and autonomy Proserpine had in her duty as Hades' queen.

We've seen her plan for blood-sacrifices (Edric Storm) thus we know she is less squeamish than we'd like to use human sacrifice to reach her goals, in the same way, if we go by show canon (and considering she is the only one who could call Jon back to his body from Ghost presently) she will be the one to bring Jon Snow back to his unliving body, but in the text is often foreshadowed that Jon already is half a wildling, half a wolf and it's possible that his time spent in Ghost might make him return more beast than man and that it will be the influence of another to bring him truly back to himself. Give him his identity back when he has been returned back from death only functionally.

On the other hand, Mirri Maz Duur does not fit the bill as completely as Mel does. Mirri is a follower of the Great Shepherd who has enjoyed a great degree of freedom and has studied in all lands, also Asshai, and has learned not only healing science but also magic and sorcery and right now — after having enjoyed a great degree of wealth during her free life, she has been captured by Drogo in his quest to bring slaves to the slave cities to fund a campaign west to put his son on the Iron throne — is in the service of Daenerys Targaryen.

The duality though, is respected as Mirri Maz Duur is a woman of healing, she's a healer and a priestess herself of the Great Shepherd. Also, as I have discussed plenty in the serie linked above about Daenerys resurrection, she does not pose immediately as a threat to Drogo, she treats his wound and dresses it and tells them how to care for it only to see her care disregarded and unlistened to, after believing she might get her freedom back or live as a treasured woman in the service of the khaleesi (as Daenerys asks her to help her with the birth) and has been claimed as hers, is instead abandoned by Daenerys, left to be mistreated and abused and her resentment grows, still it is not her fault the dothraki do not follow her instruction pertaining Drogo and he is near to death. As she is a healer she also knows the dark sorceries of Asshai and employs them when Daenerys promises to free her if she saves Drogo, using a blood sacrifice to do so. When her time comes to be sacrificed she tries to reason with Daenerys, promises her expertise to help her to reach her goals using also dark sorcery.

Yet, why does one fit the bill completely, whilst the other not so much?

For one, Drogo does not die. He isn't resurrected by Mirri's magic, he is kept alive by Mirri's magic and that too at a price, at Daenerys own insistence and freedom.

Though she does parallel the fact that Daenerys is presented with a shadow version of her husband so much she demands to know when he will be as he once was, and Mirri gives her the famous speech of up-bending of the world for him to return to her.

Yet, Mirri is not the one with the power here. Daenerys is. This much Mirri tells her, herself. See what life is worth when you have nothing else. Drogo is the external representation of what Daenerys and her ambition to the IT have done to Mirri's own identity. She's not the one granting Daenerys to return back to the land of the living with her husband back as he was, she tells her from the beginning Daenerys will pay a price and Daenerys often wonders if she knew and didn't acknowledge it which is what spurns her even further.

On the other hand, Melisandre is the one with power and influence, we don't know the extent as to why she will resurrect Jon but it's possible she will do it because she has seen him fighting in her fires, that she thinks he might be instrumental in the Lord's Plan.

Jon, also technically, is not dead. To be more precise his body is dead, but his spirit has latched onto Ghost due to their bond, as it happens between warg and animal, yet it is possible that whatever rite Melisandre will celebrate will help his spirit return to his body. She'd been the one paving the way for his return to his body and its revival, if we go by book precedent she possibly will bestow on him the Last Kiss to purify him and that instead of simply cleansing him will bring him back to his own body and possibly rebirth him in the flame she'll breath in his mouth.

In conclusion, Melisandre seems to fit much better the bill than Mirri does when we think of the character from the myth they are supposed to cover from.

Eurydice, the Lost Spouse ~ Drogo and Jon, the dead and the living

Again she dy’d, nor yet her lord reprov’d;  What could she say, but that too well he lov’d? — Ovid, Metamorphoses, the Myth of Orpheus and Eurydice

When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold … — GRRM, ADWD, Jon XIII

The birth had left her too raw and torn to take him inside of her, as she would have wanted, but Doreah had taught her other ways. Dany used her hands, her mouth, her breasts. She raked him with her nails and covered him with kisses and whispered and prayed and told him stories, and by the end she had bathed him with her tears. Yet Drogo did not feel, or speak, or rise. And when the bleak dawn broken over an empty horizon, Dany knew that he was truly lost to her. (...) Never, the darkness cried, never never never. — GRRM, AGOT, Daenerys IX

Actually when one looks at it, it's the exact opposite as to Drogo. Meaning that, both Jon and Drogo would in this interpretation fulfill the role of Eurydice (the dead spouse) only point is, because of the intervention of two very different entities they find themselves specular to each other:

Drogo's body is alive, but his spirit is gone or at the very least unreachable due blood sacrifice and dark sorcery — he doesn't speak, nor move, nor eat, nor drink unless helped and he does not interact with people; those around him collect infos about some facts about him (he likes to feel the sun on his skin, barely by observation) he is vegetative. This state is caused by the dark sorcery and blood sacrifice Mirri does on insistence of Daenerys, appealing to dark magic and blood sorcery.

Jon's body is dead, but his spirit is alive or at the very least reachable due to the intervention of the gift received by the Old Gods — he has warged into Ghost whilst dying, latching onto the bond they share, which ensues that his soul has not left the human plane to the beyond life yet, and he is still alive but trapped into Ghost's mind and body. Who has given Jon his bond with Ghost? The Old Gods, they are the entity that intervened to avoid Jon's absolute death. Indirectly or directly that they may have acted, in the text it's pretty clear Jon received Ghost by the Old Gods because as a prize for his selflessness in defending the Starks and he created the bond with him through them and it, thus at the very least indirectly they are the one that intervened to make sure he would be reachable and survive even if only in the capacity of staying into Ghost's body.

This (☝️) is why Jon fits better the bill of Eurydice if confronted with Drogo, whose body and soul remain connected and “alive, whilst unreachable”, while instead Jon, exactly like Eurydice, has seen his body dying but his soul is actually reachable and in a physically (Ghost) the same way as Eurydice's body is dead, but her soul is reachable physically in the Underworld.

In the myth Eurydice is a nymph who falls in love with Orpheus and who is loved in return by him. Their love has brief life, sadly, as the very day of their wedding Eurydice dies.

There are many versions of this myth, in some Eurydice falls in a nest of vipers (or steps on one) during a run from a satyr who, obsessed with her, tried to steal her from Orpheus; in others, instead, she's killed by Dyonisous maenads as they dance at her wedding, possibly because Orpheus had insulted the God.

One thing is very sure, her story represents the most famous myth pertaining Orpheus, though it might be one the last to be added to his name (but we will speak more of it, when we see the parallel between Orpheus, Sansa and Daenerys).

Now, thinking back on the way Eurydice dies, it seems to me pretty clear that Drogo doesn't fulfill the role as well as Jon does. Drogo dies because of his own doing, yes, he gains the wound that will kill him in a duel, due to his policy pertaining what his wife is entitled to, but if he had just listened to the instruction Mirri had given him he would not have suffered death. It is his own doing that is his fall.

And whilst Jon pays for his own doing, too, the very idea of the nest of vipers and he having stepped on it, or on just one, fits best with the reason why Jon is killed. In the show they make it look like Jon is killed because he let the wildlings through the Wall, that is not the case in the books, whilst the NW might be less than impressed with that, it's not Jon's doing, though there is his influence on the matter, it is the doing of Stannis and Jon is not held accountable of that, or better, that's not the pretense for which he is killed.

The reason why he is killed in the books is because, received Ramsay's letter, he decides to move with the NW to capture Winterfell from the Boltons and save whom he believes to be Arya in their clutches, unaware she is in fact Jeyne Poole and not his sister, breaking thousand of years of tradition of the NW not getting involved in the political matters of the Realm.

He, metaphorically, stepped on a nest of vipers of which he was very aware of — he was aware his politic would not be appreciated and that he was not appreciated as Lord Commander by all — unaware that it would bite back, or unaware of the extent they would go to, to impede his actions. He steps on several traditions, plunging people who are sworn off the Realm's matter, to a war they possibly cannot win.

It also fits with the fact that by destroying thousand of years of tradition, he is also breaking his oath to the Old Gods, in the name of whom he had vowed to devote his life to the NW and the enemy North. Was his death the Gods' punishment? The same way as Eurydice got killed in some version of the myth because Orpheus had insulted Dyonisous?

Also, do you know what the name Eurydice means in greek? It means wide justice and I do feel like it's fitting of Jon and in a wide way of the form of justice inflicted upon him (and her in the myth if we take in consideration the version in which she's killed because Dyonisous has been insulted) because he broke his oaths to the Gods actively and without turning back this time.

It certainly fits more with Jon than Drogo, also because we've seen Drogo taking, and taking and never once think of what is just, something that is not even contemplated in the dothraki way, as the dothraki way is that of the strongest eat the weakest. Instead justice and wide justice is integral part of Jon's arc. As lord commander of the NW he is the one administering justice at Castle Black, not only that, he is forever running after the very idea of what honorable Ned Stark would've done or wanted him to do.

He could give her a quick clean death, at least. He was his father's son. Wasn't he? Wasn't he? — ACOK, Jon VI

The realization twisted in his belly like a knife. They had chosen him to rule. The Wall was his, and their lives were his as well. A lord may love the men that he commands, he could hear his lord father saying, but he cannot be a friend to them. One day he may need to sit in judgment on them, or send them forth to die — ADWD, Jon III

And, tbh, I had not know prior to do this meta, but damn if it doesn't fit Jon like a glove, much better than it does Drogo.

So, yeah, I do think that whilst superficially Drogo may seem like he fits the bill to be a male counterpart to Eurydice that is not the case for the reasons stated above; Jon, on the other hand, seems to fit every little detail about the character down to the very point of having been killed, and effectively die to be then returned to the land of the living.

Also... this is mostly show-canon but yes, anyway, forgiveness is something deeply rooted into Eurydice's story, for she does not resent her husband in any way, because, she saw the love before the failing to bring it to completion. She saw proof of his love in his attempt, more than in his success. Especially if we consider that one of these instances happens when Jon and Sansa have to go their separate ways:

Sansa: can you forgive me? (...) forgive me. Jon: alright, I forgive ye. — GoT, s6e4 Sansa: can you forgive me? Jon: the North is free thanks to you. Sansa: but they lost their king. Jon: Ned Stark's daughter will speak for them. She's the best they could ask for. — GoT, s8e6

Eurydice, dying now a second time, uttered no complaint against her husband. What was there to complain of, but that she had been loved? — Ovid, Metamorphoses And I’d be the immediate forgiveness, in Eurydice. — Talk, Hozier.

Yes, okay, heartbreaking, I am sorry....but it fits so well, it almost looks like it has been done on purpose (nothing to say in your defense, Martin?)

Orpheus the unconventional hero ~ Daenerys and Sansa, unconventional heroines of their story

(...)a single lyre raised more lament than lamenting women ever did; and that from the lament a world arose in which everything was there again. — Rainer Maria Rilke

“(...)A harp can be as dangerous as a sword, in the right hands.” — Sansa VI, ASOS "What if Lord Nestor values honor more than profit?" Petyr put his arm around her. "What if it is truth he wants, and justice for his murdered lady?" He smiled. "I know Lord Nestor, sweetling. Do you imagine I'd ever let him harm my daughter?" I am not your daughter, she thought. I am Sansa Stark, Lord Eddard's daughter and Lady Catelyn's, the blood of Winterfell. — Sansa I, AFFC

“I forgot, you've been hiding under a rock. The northern girl. Winterfell's daughter. We heard she killed the king with a spell, and afterward changed into a wolf with big leather wings like a bat, and flew out a tower window. But she left the dwarf behind and Cersei means to have his head.” That's stupid, Arya thought. Sansa only knows songs, not spells, and she'd never marry the Imp. — Arya XIII, ASOS

"But?" said Dany sharply. "Tell me. I command it." "Prince Rhaegar's prowess was unquestioned, but he seldom entered the lists. He never loved the song of swords the way that Robert did, or Jaime Lannister. It was something he had to do, a task the world had set him. He did it well, for he did everything well. That was his nature. But he took no joy in it. Men said that he loved his harp much better than his lance." "He won some tourneys, surely," said Dany, disappointed. (...) Dany did not want to hear about Rhaegar being unhorsed. "But what tourneys did my brother win?" — Daenerys IV, ASOS And saw her brother, Rhaegar mounted on a stallion as black as his armor. Fire glimmered red through the narrow eye slit of his helm. The last dragon, Ser Jorah's voice Whisper faintly. The last. The last. Dany lifted his polished black visor. The face within was her own. — Daenerys IX, AGOT

And here comes the dissonant notes. Orpheus. The myth of Orpheus and his descent in the Underworld is one of the last added myths to his name, he is featured in the myth of the Argonauts as one of them and he was considered a deity (as he was the son of Apollo and a Muse) in Thrace.

Orpheus was also considered to be a prophet and his end was none to kind after he failed to save his own wife.

Now, both girls have the dragon-dream and the wolf-dream, Sansa keeps having wolf-dreams even after her direwolf, Lady, is killed. And both seems to be linked to magic whilst in different manner.

If ya don't believe in the power of manifestation, lemme just:

Sansa is THE queen of manifestation. Now, her wish and prayers may not always turn out the way she wants them (look at her wishing to become queen, and be loved by a golden prince *cough* Targaryen prince *cough* and ending up with Joff, to her praying for a true friend and knight and been subjected to Dontos and LF, but having Brienne coming her way, her wishing for a true friend to end up in LF's grasp but that also taking her to the Vale and to the Royces)

I'd not stand between Sansa Stark and something she prayed for, I tell ya.

Anyway digressing.

On the superficial level when one thinks of Orpheus they think of the sad, lost hero who descended in the Underworld, convinced Hades and Proserpine to let him recover his wife, but then, failed to get her to land of the living.

Yet, that is not all that Orpheus was. Whilst for Eurydice we know of her — as far as I have been able to find — only in relation to Orpheus, the same cannot be said for him.

To begin with in ancient Greece there was a whole cult called orphic based off prophets of which he was the legendary founder, a Thracian bard and poet he was also a potent prophet, an argonaut and the son of a God and a Muse.

As far as I have understood in ancient Greece, and possibly elsewhere as well, they had this idea that beauty of the exterior meant beauty of the interior, thus heroes were always beautiful and Orpheus is not an exception.

As for many of the myths we've spoken about, let's talk etymology first, just like Eurydice seems to mean ‘wide justice’, the meaning of Orpheus own very name is as layered and uncertain as the origin of his myth and legend.

In the end etymologists have concluded that his name's meaning spans over several planes:

hypothetically some them claims its etymology deriving from h₃órbʰos (meaning orphan, servant, slave) and ultimately the verb root *h₃erbʰ- (to change allegiance, status, ownership) which would configure him as someone who is under someone else's power and manages to change the boards in his favor and change status.

If we were to trust this etymology we'd conclude that both girls, Daenerys and Sansa, may parallel the meaning Orpheus' name seems to hold. Both of them, as I've previously stated, end up being powerless and at the mercy of others, but manage to change the odds in their favor thanks to their resilience, wit and unyielding strength of will. But, this is only one of the several etymologies for this name.

the most plausible etymology remains the greek one of ὄρφνη (órphnē; 'darkness') and and ὀρφανός (orphanós; 'fatherless, orphan').

Again, both girls do fulfill the bill completely or in part the bill of this etymology. Both are orphans and fatherless, and both feel very kneel the absence of the father — both of them style themselves after their fathers or what they know of them — until Daenerys learns the truth she thinks that she wants to make her kingdom beautiful and have her people smile at her as they did her father; whilst Sansa, as I've numerously affirmed is Ned moral heir and she parallels her own father so much. Both girls do, positively and negatively. Daenerys is impulsive and easily she goes for the neck instead of trying the diplomacy route, but I've said time and time again that that is not only due her own character but behavior she picked up by being around the people she ended up surrounded with (Viserys, the Dothrakis, Daario) to survive the trauma she endured.

Daenerys has certainly shown hints of her darker side already (the harrowing of Astapor, the torture of the wine seller daughters), whilst of Sansa's own dark side we've seen despairingly little (maybe because she is one of the purest characters of asoiaf world, which doesn't mean she's not stubborn, and naive or doesn't make mistakes based off impulsivity — just look at her and Joff and Cersei).

One of the few things which all storics seems to agree on is that Orpheus was a priest, in the polytheist sense of the term, he founded cults to Apollo and Dyonisus and he was the keeper of the orphic secrets as a seer. He was deeply involved into faith and religion, and on this matter I must say that only Sansa fits the bill.

Sansa knows the prayers to the Seven, as she has learned them from Cat and possibly her septa, but she also knows the Old Gods of her father and she's often shown praying, singing and chanting. It is an incredibly fundamental part of her own arc to the point that despite all she's suffered and suffering her belief remains steadfast:

There are gods, she told herself, and there are true knights too. All the stories can't be lies. — Sansa IV, ACOK

And when she reaches the Vale, she feels like she is alone because there is not a Godswood with a Heart Tree there, and it seems like the Gods aren't even there.

Even the gods were silent. The Eyrie boasted a sept, but no septon; a godswood, but no heart tree. No prayers are answered here, she often thought, though some days she felt so lonely she had to try. Only the wind answered her, sighing endlessly around the seven slim white towers and rattling the Moon Door every time it gusted.  — Alayne II, AFFC

What is Daenerys stance of Gods? We never see her actively praying though I must say there are moments she must've done so, before it all begun or in the very beginning:

Yet when she slept that night, she dreamt the dragon dream again. Viserys was not in it this time. There was only her and the dragon. Its scales were black as night, wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Dany sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. She could hear it singing to her. She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce. And the next day, strangely, she did not seem to hurt quite so much. It was as if the gods had heard her and taken pity. — Daenerys III, AGOT

Tbh this whole thing points more imo, to her starting to humor the dragon in her, that relentless, fierce and scouring fire that she'll claim as hers, that she'll use to drawn strength from in her lowest moments but also unleash with her wrath whenever she feels justified about it.

But I can imagine young Daenerys completely overcome by the physical pain, begging the Gods to make it stop, to make her stronger and the dragon dream being her own mind conjuring a metaphorical reason as to why she was becoming stronger, making her identify with something she believes untouchable and undefeatable. The dragon.

But after she comes to Vaes Dothrak she starts to think of all Gods exactly the way the valyrians did before. They are there, perhaps, but not caring enough to show any sing of worship or respect.

She wondered what the Lamb Men had thought, when they first saw the dust of their horses from atop those cracked-mud walls. Perhaps a few, the younger and more foolish who still believed that the gods heard the prayers of desperate men, took it for deliverance. — Daenerys VII, AGOT

"No," Dany whispered as tears ran down her cheeks. "No, please, gods hear me, no." — Daenerys VIII, AGOT

What had she ever done to make the gods so cruel?  — Daenerys VIII, AGOT

This particular last quote is specular to a quote from Sansa herself, that on her wedding night to Tyrion after all she has endured thinks along the same lines, but the difference in phrasing, I believe, might be of importance.

But before that, Sansa herself is told more than once that gods are cruel, she herself wonder of it privately but always resolves that they aren't.

Tyrion turned to Sansa. "My lady, I am sorry for your losses. Truly, the gods are cruel." Sansa could not think of a word to say to him. How could he be sorry for her losses? Was he mocking her? It wasn't the gods who'd been cruel, it was Joffrey. — Sansa I, ACOK

And, again, during their wedding night:

This is not right, this is not fair, how have I sinned that the gods would do this to me, how? — Sansa III, ASOS

See the difference between their mindsets resides in one simple word, Daenerys asks herself “what had she done” (as far as I know, but I am not a native speaker, so I may be mistaken, do is a neutrally connotated verb, it doesn't hold neither a positive nor a negative enforcement) whilst Sansa asks herself “how have I sinned” she uses the verb “sinning” which is negatively connotated.

She doesn't question that the Gods seems to be unfair, or not just, she questions in which way she might have sinned that she finds herself in this situation, whilst Daenerys plight is more outraged is more like “I've done nothing wrong in my life, why are you punishing me?” sort of thing. But again, I am not native speaker, so I may be mistaking the author intent here, still it strikes strange the one would sound so entitled and the other so modest whilst the sentiment behind the self-posed question is similar.

Let's turn back to Daenerys:

"My baby," she screamed, and perhaps the gods heard, for as quick as that Cohollo was dead. — Daenerys VIII, AGOT

"It was her fate, Khaleesi," said Aggo. If I look back I am lost. "It was a cruel fate," Dany said, "yet not so cruel as Mago's will be. I promise you that, by the old gods and the new, by the lamb god and the horse god and every god that lives. I swear it by the Mother of Mountains and the Womb of the World. Before I am done with them, Mago and Ko Jhaqo will plead for the mercy they showed Eroeh." — Daenerys IX, AGOT

And whilst she believes the gods have sent her the comet to show her the way, she seems to slowly rise herself to their own peak, to the point that, when in Meereen she actually thinks as if she's one of them.

From here she could see the whole city: the narrow twisty alleys and wide brick streets, the temples and granaries, hovels and palaces, brothels and baths, gardens and fountains, the great red circles of the fighting pits. And beyond the walls was the pewter sea, the winding Skahazadhan, the dry brown hills, burnt orchards, and blackened fields. Up here in her garden Dany sometimes felt like a god, living atop the highest mountain in the world. Do all gods feel so lonely? Some must, surely. — Daenerys VI, ASOS

So, it sounds to me like peak difference between Daenerys and Sansa in their view of the Gods, and only one of them aligns with Orpheus. You guessed it, Sansa.

Now, Dany is convinced her dreams come true, and she's the one having visions in the House of the Undying. Does she have prophetic dreams? Or is she shaping her experience through the eyes of the dreams she makes?

Daenys the dreamer seems to have foreseen the end of Valyria and it seems that Aegon the Conqueror saw the enemy to the North, and if Martin is truly trying to tell us something Viserys' dream in HotD is clearly intended to describe Jon. So perhaps Dany does see specks of the future in her dreams and shapes her actions based on it.

Sansa's dreams, on the other hand, seem more focused on what she prays for. She prays for a champion and a friend, she dreams she calls for the knights of her stories who did not come to save her. Dreams for her, barred for the wolf-dreams she keeps having, seem to be a way to cope with what is around her more than about something that is about to happen.

I think Sansa's foretelling abilities are more in her daydreams, though she often dreams of Winterfell, of home, usually in her wolf-dreams. She dreams of children who look like her siblings. Those are her wishes coming to life in her mind through her dreams and I've already said about Sansa and the power of manifestation haven't I?

So, imo, whilst Daenerys' dream might be prophetic she shapes her whole life and actions on them instead Sansa's dream (save for the wolf dreams) are Sansa unconscious mind manifesting what she can no longer manifest openly. So, maybe Daenerys will get what she saw in her dreams — her being the last dragon, her dying at the fauces of a dragon, burned alive... as she may think she's immune to fire, whilst Martin has repeated several times that, that was a una tantum happening because of all the magic involved more than a fire immunity she doesn't have. She might be resistant, but I wouldn't be surprised if she ended up in fire at the end — because both of them are manifesting different things and shaping their lives after them. Daenerys conquest and fire and blood; Sansa's own childhood home, safe and sound and children who look like her siblings to remember them by.

So far, so, both girls seem to be on par to hold their part with Orpheus, but when speaking of the traits that make him, Orpheus....Daenerys surprising falls short.

It seems that Orpheus was not your average greek hero, it seems instead that he had inherited from his mother (a Muse) and his father in some myths (Apollo) the gift of music and poetry and that whilst Hermes might have created the lyre it was him who perfected it, some scripts say that it was Apollo himself that taught Orpheus to sing.

Before we delve into what people thought he could do with his gift, I must say this — it is tightly interwoven both with his religious figure and role as figurehead, as in the past more than today, religion and chants and hymns and songs were intertwined and expression of each other — his gift, in particular seems to take another connotation I seldom see spoken of. He's a great communicator, capable to communicate even with inanimate objects and ill-disposed toward him creatures, gods or people. His gift thus, is that of communication. Which he perfected so well he made of it a superior art, in a way so distinguished and powerful than even gods were powerless against it.

It is found written in poets as Simonides of Ceos that Orpheus's music and singing could charm the birds, fish and wild beasts, coax the trees and rocks into dance, and divert the course of rivers. Basically his communication was so good he seemed to have a magic hand with people, gods, animals, plants and even inanimate objects.

Now, though some call Daenerys charming, they often do that after she has become a powerful queen and conqueror, to take a leaf from Bilbo Baggins' book when she's a loaf of bread to be buttered very well to not get on her bad side, and boy does she have a bad side.

And, what of Sansa?

I have read once, and I reiterate (though I don't know who was OP of this genial take of her character) that the only thing we really should say about Sansa, which would say it all, is that she had a men-eating beast and she taught it to eat daintily from her hand and put a ribbon on her because manners are important.

Sansa is shown as capable of navigating an hostile court and use her charm to remain alive and at times to help others as well.

She convinces Joffrey not to execute Dontos, making up on the spot some kind of bad-luck omen in killing a man the day of one's nameday;

She convinces Joffrey not to have the woman with the dead babe killed but to give her coin instead (during a riot, nonetheless)

She manages to calm down a flock of scared women during the siege of KL, even whilst scared for her own life and without someone to look up to and to imitate in her pursue of being in charge of the ladies of the court.

"I will remember, Your Grace," said Sansa, though she had always heard that love was a surer route to the people's loyalty than fear. If I am ever a queen, I'll make them love me. — Sansa VI, ACOK

With her singing, whilst scared for her life and with a knife pointed at her throat, she manages to calm the Hound enough that even if he entered Maegor's Holdfast to rape her, kill her or take her with him he leaves her without hurting her further.

Tyrion himself watches her move around the court at Joffrey and Margaery's wedding and think that she'd make a good wife and a good queen if Joffrey had, had the sense to love her. Because thanks to her communication skills and courtesy she manages to be beloved even in an hostile court; to the point that while fleeting from Joffrey's murder she's told she's a kind lady, because she's crying after she saw the way Joff died.

Whilst posing as the bastard of a very hated man, she manages to fulfill the role left open by her aunt's death, becomes her cousin's primary caretaker and acts de facto Lady of the Eyrie. Lords and ladies respect her despite her apparent bastardy and her apparent parentage.

Also, signing can have another meaning as well. How many times have we heard it used in the sense of “making someone sing/tell the truth”?

“A harp can be as dangerous as a sword, in the right hands” LF says to Sansa and it's true, and Sansa is the one playing the harp. And it is reinforced when LF brings her to testify against Marillion and about Lysa's death and Sansa thinking on how the Royces should want truth and justice, more than whatever LF would offer them. I've said it many times — this foreshadows Sansa's journey with justice and how she is supposed to sing the truth — sings her stories (just like one of Varys' little birds) to the right ears to get LF under trial for his own doing and bring forth his demise in the same way her singing the truth about Joff to Olenna and Margaery spurned them to assassinate him.

And again, music and chants not only have a great deal of importance with religion, but also magic. Why, Mirri chants as she makes her sorceries and prayers and magic.

“Sansa knows no spells, only songs” followed closely with “and she'd never marry the Imp” makes me go all like...but she did marry the Imp forced as she was, so maybe she knows no spells but her songs works their magic, just as her communication skills do.

Sansa tells tales of valor, the same ones she once believed in, to Sweetrobyn in an attempt to make him feel more valiant, to make him act more honorable and she decides to surround him with valiants knights so that he may learn from their example, be loved by them and thus be protected. Just like a bard. And it works.

Sansa's own brand of magic, her communication skills works like a swiss-clock.

Now, this foreshadows directly with other specular pieces in Jon's chapters, creating a connection that despite Drogo and Dany being together and “in love” lacked.

Jon uses her communication rules in his daily life — telling Gilly her name is pretty to please her, as he cannot help her.

Jon sees beyond the Wall and he thinks that Sansa would be awed by the beauty of it like in a song, call it an enchantment and had tears in her eyes (in a similar situation, seeing snow for the first time since leaving home, Sansa acts in that exact same way).

When Jon is thinking of Winterfell, he sees his last memory of his sister, singing softly to herself as she brushed Lady's coat.

Poetic and prophetic as Jon is now in Ghost, a direwolf, sharing in his conscience, and we all think that, that might mean that when he is returned to his body he will take part of that ferality of the direwolf back with him, to enhance his own ferality. And what is, his last memory of Sansa? Her brushing Lady's coat — remember how Nymeria rebelled when Arya did the same? — whilst singing. Effectively charming a men-eating beast to be pliant and obedient to her.

Aww.... Jonny boy will you get all pliant and obedient too when Sansa comes around? After all you've been defending strenuously her claim to Winterfell, as strenuously as Arya's life when you choose to leave Castle Black to fight.

And why did I say, up above, in the beginning that it was important that Orpheus and Eurydice are shown holding hands?, with Orpheus leading as Sansa does in the piece I've chosen to parallel?

If you are familiar with my Jonsa-foreshadowing metas you might already be acquainted with what I think of Sansa building WF back up from snow and dawn stealing in her garden like a thief (flower = maidenhead; her garden — a thief stealing in her garden...stealing her virginity?; here), of her thoughts as she descends to the Gates of the Moon with Sweetrobin (here) and an entire series entitled “it's poetry, it rhymes” (x and xx) about Jon/Ygritte being only a decoy for Jon/Sansa (I swear I had no idea when I chose that title for those metas, but right now I'm starting to think it was because subconsciously I might had already gotten the vibe of Orpheus and Eurydice). And thus, you might already know where I am heading with the digression of hand holding.

So the excerpt of the text we want to look at, for this, can be found in Alayne II, AFFC, for some insight, Sansa has been hiding in the Vale for a bit as Alayne and she and Sweetrobin are making the journey down the Eyrie to the Gates of the Moon before winter hits and they get snowed in. Sansa is as scared as Robert is, but she shoulders on and braves on and lends some of her bravery to Robert by telling him stories of the Winged Knight.

“Ser Sweetrobin,” Lord Robert said, and Alayne knew that she dare not wait for Mya to return. She helped the boy dismount, and hand in hand they walked out onto the bare stone saddle, their cloaks snapping and flapping behind them. All around was empty air and sky, the ground falling away sharply to either side. There was ice underfoot, and broken stones just waiting to turn an ankle, and the wind was howling fiercely. It sounds like a wolf, thought Sansa. A ghost wolf, big as mountains. And then they were on the other side, and Mya Stone was laughing and lifting Robert for a hug. “Be careful,” Alayne told her. “He can hurt you, flailing. You wouldn’t think so, but he can.” They found a place for him, a cleft in the rock to keep him out of the cold wind. Alayne tended him until the shaking passed, whilst Mya went back to help the others cross. — Alayne II, AFFC

Wolf's howling is often considered a bad omen, but not for Sansa. Why? Because Sansa is a direwolf, she's a Stark, she identifies with a wolf and a Stark and how do wolves communicate? Howling.

The wolves howl to communicate with each other, especially when they are at great distance from each other, they do to communicate where they are, if there is a danger or if there is a prey which is why to a wolf, howling is a good sign, it means the others of the pack are alive, they are safe and that they are communicating something. To another?, a prey or an enemy? It means they are coming, and it’s not just one, it’s more than one. They are organising, they’re coming for you.

This particular excerpt is a foreshadowing of Jonsa, or Jon and Sansa working as a team. The ghost wolf as big as mountains refers to Jon, as his own direwolf is named Ghost, he is a literal ghost and one of his childhood memories is posing as a ghost in the crypts to scare his siblings; what more, Jon was born in the mountains of Dorne, at the tower of joy — thus only he can be the ghost wolf as big as mountains.

And, what is Sansa doing whilst Jon's presence looms so closely to her?

She is helping her cousin she takes him by the hand (*cough cough* the bride is handed to the groom *cough cough*) then she tends to him until his shakes passes; it seems to me that it foreshadows Sansa finding Jon in a clear fit after he returns from his “death” and warging in Ghost and she will tend him back to normality/life (or as normal as he will be after being resurrected)… sing him back to life, telling him stories of their father's honor and Robb's valor as well to remind him of home, to bring him back to himself (you know since her other cousin is comforted and calmed by music and her tales when he has his fits?)

Together she and her cousin face the perilous journey ahead (empty air and sky, the ground falling away sharply to either side. There was ice underfoot, and broken stones just waiting to turn an ankle— sounds like winter to me; wait *le gasp!* it is actually winter) and hand-in-hand they cross to the other side, where they are safe (back home in Winterfell and the North). That’s to me what that passage is hinting at.

So you see, it fits perfectly, like a glove, with the idea of Orpheus leading Eurydice by the hand, after his singing literally moved mountains and rivers and beasts — the three headed dog — and melted the will of the queen of the Underworld and of her husband granting him the boon he so much wished for. And what is on the other side? On the other side of winter it's spring, and I've said more than once that Sansa is not only the first child born in Winterfell but the only Stark born during spring as summer has lasted for nine years when AGOT begins and Sansa is eleven so she either was born during the last of winter when life starts to rewaken or in early spring with rebirth, whilst on the other side of death is life. Will Sansa show Jon back to spring and life in the same way as Orpheus brought Eurydice back to the threshold of the land of the living? It certainly seems so.

And what is one of Sansa most heartfelt traits? She remembers. She refuses to forget her father and her mother, her siblings. She dreams of them, she remembers them, she tries to do right by them.

As the northerners says “The North remembers” and remembrance is, sometimes, the only way to keep someone dead alive.

Before I delve into the last part of this meta, and the trope of failing to save a loved one, let's see the quote that would make you think Daenerys is the perfect Orpheus lookalike (wrongly, imo).

In another one of her dreams the “stars” supposedly tell her a secret, which is more of a warning in my opinion: «To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward, you must go back. To touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow.» so this sounds like a warning for her: look back or you will be lost. But what does Daenerys think about looking back?

If I look back I’m lost.

Which is a mantra for her, a mantra she started when everything went south with Drogo. Orpheus is charged not to look back before Eurydice has stepped into the land of the living again. It is because he is fearful, not hearing her steps behind him, that he does turn around in some version of the myth, in others he looks behind because he already stands outside the threshold of the Underworld and wrongly assumes she does as well whilst shielding her from the light of the sun which would've brought her back to life.

She (Dany) feels like she cannot look back at first when she learns of Rhaego's fate, and wonders if she truly knew the price to pay. Then again it happens when she kills Drogo, which also contains a bit of a spoiler for her end:

Inside the tent Dany found a cushion, soft silk stuffed with feathers. She clutched it to her breasts as she walked back out to Drogo, to her sun-and-stars. If I look back I am lost. It hurt even to walk, and she wanted to sleep, to sleep and not to dream. She knelt, kissed Drogo on the lips, and pressed the cushion down across his face. — Daenerys IX, AGOT

This is the moment she's lost forever to her dream of the little girl returning to the big house with the red door and the lemon tree. This is the moment, possibly, that in her mind starts her plan to sacrifice Mirri, Drogo and herself to the flames, putting the dragon eggs on Drogo's body.

Because as I have discussed at length her choice to make the blood sacrifice and what it entails (to which degree she understand it, it's unclear) is predetermined, it's deliberate. And it gives her the dragons in return. And possibly it started here.

And what does Daenerys do? She goes in the tent, takes a cushion with the intent of killing Drogo with it and then walks back out, in doing so she does look back. And as she herself says “if I look back I am lost”, she was lost in this moment in which she finally embraced the dragon quietly before the storm hit with the blood sacrifice.

What is back of her, her responsibility scares her, so she looks only forward. And it is a pattern:

she thinks it when she creates her khalasar before entering the pyre (again mention of death, her death and the blood rite, and the smoke and the fire) in Daenerys X, AGOT;

she thinks of it when she enters Astapor to buy the Unsullied (also because if she looks back she sees her following — people who stood by her through thick and thin — and think it insignificant) in Daenerys III, ASOS;

she thinks it again and again, every time she is faced with a choice she refuses to look back, to acknowledge her errors and learn, she just looks forward.

As long as she survives she has won, no matter the ruin she has left behind. She justifies the blood on her hand and does not look back (ADWD, Daenerys VII);

every time events should spurn her to look back she refuses because if she does she’s lost. Because to survive she has to keep walking (Daenerys X, ADWD) and if she looks back she doesn’t walk and she is lost.

At last when she embraces the dragon (while on the run with Drogon) she sets on her decision to not look back (Daenerys X, ADWD).

To me this foreshadows that she will keep looking forward and the moment she looks back consciously (like they framed it in the show: when she is touching the Iron throne and looks back beyond her shoulder to Jon who will kill her) is the moment she’s lost, might be she will realise the destruction she has brought and what she has become, just before dying (a depth the show failed to deliver to us, probably also because of the shortness of the last season coupled with the lack of the inner dialogue from the characters).

Instead what is Sansa's mantra? To be brave, as brave as a Stark, as brave as her lady mother and her brother and as brave as a lady from a song.

And she is.

Orpheus failing ~ the trope of failing to save a loved one

Or bid the soul of Orpheus silfn notes as warbled to the string, Drew Iron tears down Pluto's cheek, And made Hell grant what Love did seek. — John Milton

Tyrion reclined on an elbow while Sansa sat staring at her hands. She is just as comely as the Tyrell girl. Her hair was a rich autumn auburn, her eyes a deep Tully blue. Grief had given her a haunted, vulnerable look; if anything, it had only made her more beautiful. He wanted to reach her, to break through the armor of her courtesy. — Tyrion VIII, ASOS

No," she wept, "no, please, stop it, it's too high, the price is too high." More stones came flying. She tried to crawl toward the tent, but Cohollo caught her. Fingers in her hair, he pulled her head back and she felt the cold touch of his knife at her throat. "My baby," she screamed, and perhaps the gods heard, for as quick as that, Cohollo was dead. Aggo's arrow took him under the arm, to pierce his lungs and heart. — Daenerys VIII, AGOT

The trope of the myth of Orpheus and Eurydice is that of failing to save a loved one. Orpheus manages when none other did, he enchanted Cerberus and made Hades cry with his grief, melting also Proserpine's heart with his mourning and love for his wife. His music was able to move rivers and mountains and enchant animals and beasts and yet, humanly he fails the only human task given to him. Have faith.

It is because he is afraid they have deceived him, paranoid even, that he turns around before the time, setting Eurydice to return to the land of the dead nothing more than a shade.

Sansa and Daenerys both share, in AGOT, the struggle with failing to save a loved one. Sansa tries her best to convince Joffrey to grant he father pardon and send him to the Wall, exiled but alive; whilst Daenerys is ready to sacrifice everything to keep Drogo alive and at her side.

Both fail.

Sansa loses Ned and her innocence.

Daenerys loses Rhaego and her innocence. She later kills Drogo herself.

Yet, after this moment their roads take completely different turns and whilst Daenerys often rethinks about Drogo and what happened to him and Rhaego she slowly is become paranoid, afraid of being deceived and uncertain of whom to trust.

Sansa, on the other hand, keeps finding herself in the same situation over and over. Despite her attempts at diplomacy Robb wages war, gets named KitN and Sansa pays the price for every victory he gains, despite her prayers both him and her mother are killed, as well — to her knowledge Rickon and Bran — Arya is nowhere to be found and Sansa is all alone.

She manages to save Donto's life from Joffrey, but ends up unable to save him from LF.

Now, she's struggling for power in the Vale against LF, unawarely or awarely that she is doing it, and the point of contention is lord Robert whom she is protecting where LF is using him.

Just as his grief makes Orpheus more convincing, it seems like grief makes Sansa more beautiful to someone's eyes, and whilst I disagree with Tyrion, I do think that all she's suffered because of her inability to save Ned emotionally has made her even more astounding as a character. Her unfailing kindness and gentleness, her softness despite all that hurt are enhanced by the fact that they remain intact despite it all, as poetically said in this passage:

A pure world, Sansa thought. I do not belong here. Yet she stepped out all the same. — Sansa VII, ASOS

Having failed once does not hinder her from trying again and again. And it's not even her loved ones, or people she knows personally.

During the bread riots Sansa manages to convince Joffrey to throw the woman with the dead babe coin instead of ordering her death.

Despite failing to save Ned, Sansa keeps pushing, she keeps trying to help others, to save others. As I've said more than once, Sansa will most possibly manage to save Jon, bring him back to himself, but in doing so she might as well loose him.

Just like in the show, Sansa telling the truth about him is done to save him, to protect him; Sansa re-organizes the whole army of northerners in disarray and threatens to wage war on KL if Jon is harmed, she manages to gets him to be pardoned by the king even though it means he's exiled at the Wall... yet in doing so, she also looses him however temporarily that might be.

[Ask me again in ten years]

So, seeing all of this, I believe Sansa might manage to save Jon, she might manage that against all odds staked, but in doing so she might have to sacrifice (temporarily I hope) her chance to be with him.

And it's bittersweet and heartbreaking, especially if Jon acts out of love for her and their siblings as suggested by the show, protecting her in return and damning himself in doing so.

And what of Daenerys? Daenerys has lost her sun-and-stars, she's lost her brothers and her father and mother, and her son. She's gained the dragons, her children. And, as Illyrio Mopatis said:

"The frightened child who sheltered in my manse died on the Dothraki sea, and was reborn in blood and fire. This dragon queen who wears her name is a true Targaryen. When I sent ships to bring her home, she turned toward Slaver's Bay. In a short span of days she conquered Astapor, made Yunkai bend the knee, and sacked Meereen.” — Tyrion II, ADWD

And, you know why I think Daenerys sort of died and got resuscitated during the events of Daenerys X, AGOT?

When the fire died at last and the ground became cool enough to walk upon, Ser Jorah Mormont found her amidst the ashes, surrounded by blackened logs and bits of glowing ember and the burnt bones of man and woman and stallion. She was naked, covered with soot, her clothes turned to ash, her beautiful hair all crisped away … yet she was unhurt. (...) Wordless, the knight fell to his knees. The men of her khas came up behind him. Jhogo was the first to lay his arakh at her feet. "Blood of my blood," he murmured, pushing his face to the smoking earth. "Blood of my blood," she heard Aggo echo. "Blood of my blood," Rakharo shouted. And after them came her handmaids, and then the others, all the Dothraki, men and women and children, and Dany had only to look at their eyes to know that they were hers now, today and tomorrow and forever, hers as they had never been Drogo's. As Daenerys Targaryen rose to her feet, her black hissed, pale smoke venting from its mouth and nostrils. The other two pulled away from her breasts and added their voices to the call, translucent wings unfolding and stirring the air, and for the first time in hundreds of years, the night came alive with the music of dragons. — Daenerys X, AGOT

This is the moment, the moment Daenerys Targaryen, the dragon, the Mother of Dragons, the conqueror is born, and she is born after a blood sacrifice, after a dark sorcery rite. She is reborn in fire and blood.

And as the time goes on, we see less and less of the Dany we've barely known in the beginning of AGOT, the small girl for whom we feel sad. She becomes a conqueror, stepping on others freedom and lives in order to get to the Iron throne, to drink the wine of vengeance for the Usurper's skull (no matter that Bobby B is dead). Formally she frees only the slaves at the end of AGOT and Missandei, she buys the Unsullied, tells them they are hers and then overlaps the concept of freedom with that of dracarys, but she never formally frees them.

She can't look back, not because if she does she looses herself, but because she'd find that Dany, the small girl who loved her brother and her big house with the red door and the lemon tree and see she failed her. That small girl she could've made happy, had she taken her dragons, her khalasar and turned to Vaes Tolorro, made the earth beautiful and alive again.

Instead, the chants, the song she is associated with is neither of prayer, nor of kindness or gentleness. It's the song of dragons and dragons plants no trees. And the more we see of her journey during ADWD, the more we see how her communication skills grow lesser and lesser, how she starts to depend more on the dragon, embraces it, when she sees that diplomacy tastes like defeat on her tongue.

Daenerys Targaryen looses her communication skills in her journey, until all that will be left of her will be fire and blood, and then she will turn back and see she failed to give her inner child back her home.

Sansa Stark, opposite, gains and perfects her communication skills, she depends on them to stay alive, to get back home, to rebuild it from ashes and make it full of life again.

Yes, maybe both failed to save a loved (or several) ones, maybe both of them are fated to fail — Dany toward Drogo and Sansa toward Sansa — in the sense they will save them, but be separated from them. And it's bittersweet and heartbreaking, but, in conclusion I'd say Jon and Sansa fit the bill of parallels with Orpheus and Eurydice much more than Daenerys and Drogo do.

Daenerys to mourn her losses starts a conquest. Sansa to mourn her losses starts to rebuild her home and her family. Perhaps they are two faces of Orpheus... but tbh I feel like the purest form of the myth of Orpheus and Eurydice is better represented in asoiaf with Jon and Sansa, rather than Drogo and Dany because:

Daenerys does not fit the bill of parallel with Orpheus because his distinctive trait is communication and we see her loose it.

Drogo is not an Eurydice parallel, because he dies only after Daenerys has done her pact with Mirri, by her own hand.

Daenerys in her grief does not turn to creation — like Orpheus did, composing music and poetry even after he failed to save Eurydice — she turns to destruction, to conquest.

As opposed to Jon and Sansa, who, for now (I am sure proof will keep piling up, because these whole collection of foreshadowing and proofs comes before they even interact in the book!) are yet to share a single scene together in the books:

Jon's body is dead, his soul reachable (just as Eurydice) fitting the bill perfectly

the way Jon's killed is reminiscent of Eurydice stepping on a nest of vipers either to flee someone trying to steal her, or because the menaids were angered

Sansa fits perfectly the bill of Orpheus, her fundamental traits and we see her hone her communication skills and depend on them and use them for good.

Jon's presence looms in Sansa's periphery foreshadowing her nursing him back to himself after his ‘death’ and helping him, by leading him through winter and to spring (why, Sansa learns that Jon has made LC as she's in the Vale)

Jon's last memory of Sansa is of her managing her men-eating direwolf whilst singing to her and brushing her coat — foreshadowing of Sansa managing to tend him back from ferality after his prolonged stay in Ghost.

Sansa's arc and refusal to stop trying to saving the people around her.

Jonsa finishing arc in GoT with them protecting each other to the very end and it causing their separation (it is unclear if it is temporary or not, seems to be hinted at as temporary tho as Orpheus separation from Eurydice as he too will die one day and reunite with her in the Underworld)

So... yeah, it turned long — again — still, hope you enjoyed it! Thank you to all the lovely anons who forwarded their opinion, this meta would not have turn out this way without your input so thank you and I hope you enjoyed it! Do you agree? What do you all think of this?

Let's hear your opinions! As always sending all my love ~G.

You can find my other mythology essays here:

Cersei and Daenerys — Venus decoded

Sansa and the mythological figures she embodies (Persephone/Kore, Isis, Medusa, Gunnlöd, Psyche) — the Myth of Sansa Stark

Jonsa foreshadowing part VIII — Love and Psyche

Jonsa foreshadowing part IX — the story of Osiris and Isis

#jonsa #jonsa foreshadowing #the hag mythology essays #mythology essays #mythology of asoiaf #jonsa and mythology #jonsa mythology #sansa stark mythology #jon snow mythology #orpheus and eurydice #daenerys mythology #drogo mythology #greek mythology and the world of ice and fire