#all in the span of one meta post | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

amarriageoftrueminds · 2 months

Text

How long did Steve actually know Peggy?

(with pictures!)

[ post with just the images here ]

Short Answer:

626 days total / 20 months, 15 days, and only spoke on 8 separate days.

Long Answer:

Steve got his last 4F / first 1A on 14th of June, 1943.

When Steve arrived at Camp Lehigh, Peggy introduced herself and the SSR.

Directly afterwards, Col. Phillips introduced himself and explained that they would be there for a week only before choosing someone to be given serum:

If they had any common sense, they would’ve said Steve was at Basic Training for a while before being drafted into Project Rebirth.

This being Marvel, however...

[ full 7K meta under cut ]

What If...?, Marvel’s Instagram, and Marvel Studios' The Marvel Cinematic Universe: An Official Timeline book gave the ‘official’ date of Steve’s serum as June 22, 1943.

This means:

Steve was enlisted June 14th 1943,

shipped out to Camp Lehigh June 15th 1943,

was there for just a week (til June 21st 1943),

Had a conversation with Erskine about why he was chosen on evening of June 21st.

and was back in Brooklyn and receiving serum on June 22nd 1943.

Poor lad barely had any time to pack and unpack! 😲

Sidenote:

The first date shown in the movie is March 1942:

When Red Skull acquired the Tesseract.

This implies (but does not conclusively prove) that Dr Erskine must have been captured by the Allies before March 1942, because:

when he has his conversation with Steve, he merely said Red Skull believed “that there is a great power hidden in the earth, left here by the gods.” IE. he wasn’t aware that Red Skull had successfully seized that power (the Tesseract).

Stark is flummoxed by Tesseract-related tech when he sees it, which he surely wouldn’t be if Erskine had known about Red Skull having the Tesseract because Erskine could’ve just told him.

Anyway, back to the present and Steve was already in the local newspapers by Wednesday, 23rd June 1943:

Anyway, he and Peggy only spoke for 1-2 days during that time: June 22nd, the day he received serum, and (what was probably) June 23rd, the day after.

IMO it seems like it’s just the day after because:

everyone who was at the blown-up Brooklyn base is there 👆 (wherever ‘there’ is) as if no time has passed at all...

...but we know that time must have passed, because Senator Brandt shows Steve a paper dated the 23rd [see above.] 👆 So enough time has passed for the newspapers to hear about Steve, for a journalist to write about it, print it, and for the Senator to get a hold of a copy.

Enough time has passed for the SSR to get the saboteur’s Hydra sub out of the water at the Brooklyn Navy Yard in order for Howard Stark to be flummoxed by it, as he is in this scene. (And he is still in the pit with it; he hasn’t had long enough to look at it already. Ergo, not much time has passed.)

You could say that it’s a later date, and Brandt just happens to have a newspaper from the 23rd. Except...

...Phillips mentions having talked to the president that morning... which makes more sense as something he would do immediately after the whole Hydra-saboteur bomb kerfuffle, not later. That’s not a phone call he could put off for days. That’s a call you make straight away.

Although that doesn’t automatically mean that that-morning’s phone call is the first or only phone call Phillips has made to the President, since the Hydra-saboteur-kerfuffle, meaning this could be a date later than June 23rd.

But the fact that:

everyone who was at the bomb site is still there,

Howard is still in the pit looking at the Hydra sub and admitting he’s clueless about it, as if that is new information he’s announcing,

they’re taking Steve’s blood, also not something to delay on,

and Brandt is asking basic questions about Hydra. If more than a day had passed, he would already know the answers to these questions, even if he had been distracted by the Press.

Suggesting it is very soon after.

The lack of delay in Phillips’s actions also supports this idea. Earlier on in the movie he moaned to Erskine about having had to talk to senators multiple times before he could get the ball rolling on Project Rebirth. But now he’s cheerful and decisive. Which to me suggests he’s had one decisive phone call with the President, where they exchanged all the information they needed, and that’s it. (He doesn’t say “I spoke to the President again this morning,” for example.)

Brandt asks Phillips what he’s going to do about Hydra. Phillips smirks and answers that the SSR is being re-tasked to go after them. As if he anticipated the question and got the President to sign off on that just prior; close enough to this moment that Phillips is only acting on those orders just now.

"This morning" implies that this scene is taking place later on in the day of June 23rd 1943; after the morning, so that Phillips isn’t saying he called the president just now, for example.

There’s strong sunlight coming in from the window behind Steve 👆, so I’d say we can place this scene at afternoon, June 23rd.

And we can infer that it isn’t evening yet, because Phillips refers to flying out “tonight,” as if if the night of June 23rd has not yet arrived.

(Another maddening possibility: it’s all happening on the same day, a day that Phillips just happened to have spoken to the President on the phone in the morning already, but either the prop makers got the date wrong on the newspaper or the official Marvel instagram got the date of Steve’s serum wrong. 🤦‍♀️)

So, timeline:

June 22nd, 1943: serum, bomb/saboteur, Erskine’s death.

(possibly but not definitively) June 23rd, 1943: morning, newspapers reporting on Steve are printed (Senator Brandt sees them), the Hydra sub is shipped to dry dock for Howard to look at, and the President tells Phillips via the phone that the SSR is being retasked “as of today.”

afternoon, Steve has his blood drawn, Phillips relays the President’s orders to him, Brandt, Peggy and Stark. Steve objects. Brandt recruits Steve for the USO.

night, Phillips, Peggy and Howard fly out.

Unless it’s all the same day, in which case the events go:

June 22nd or 23rd:

morning, Phillips talks to the President who officially re-tasks the SSR, Steve gets serum, blown up, Erskine killed.

afternoon, the Hydra sub put in dry dock for Howard to examine, newspapers rushed out an edition about Steve, Brandt recruited Steve for the USO using said paper.

night, Peggy, Phillips and Howard flew out to London.

So Peggy was flown out to London that night, being (probably but not conclusively) the night of either June 22nd or June 23rd, 1943.

And then Steve was on tour with the USO for 4 months (from July 1943).

Probably starting mid/late July / early August, to give them enough time to find 20+ chorus girls, create and fit costumes, build sets, book venues, choreograph and plan a show, and do some rehearsals... though apparently not enough for Steve to have learned his lines. 🤦‍♀️

During this period, as the USO shows grow ever more elaborate (up to 40 showgirls, bigger sets, a fake Hitler, a military band, and harley davidson motorcycles) Steve also films multiple propaganda reels, signs autographs, takes photos with the public (and Senator Brandt), appears in his own comics, sneaks into the cinema to watch himself on screen, and travels to Buffalo, Milwaukee, Philadelphia, Chicago, and New York! 😵

Senator Brandt’s smooth patter in recruiting Steve for the USO, how he acts during it, and the fact that there was a cameraman there to take photos of Steve just before he got serum, to me suggests that Brandt was planning to do this USO show with whoever the serum worked on.

So it’s possible a lot of the show logistics and planning were already underway before Steve was even chosen for serum. That would mean the USO show kicked off much sooner after Steve got serum (which might account for why he’s so nervous on stage...)

And it would explain how they were able to cram so much activity into four short months.

Meanwhile, in October 1943, in Azzano, Italy...

And then Steve goes to Italy, five miles from the front

on the 3rd of November, 1943:

We can see that Steve and Peggy were not in contact in between these times / while he was on USO Tour, because:

no reference to any such contact is ever shown or implied (and Kevin Feige said Steve was sleeping with someone else while on tour).

Steve looks surprised to see her when she shows up. He hasn’t invited her to come -- which he could, by letter -- and asks her what she’s doing there.

She’s cagey about why she’s there/what she’s been up to; so she’s not someone who even can carry on a correspondence, given the classified nature of her work.

If they had somehow been corresponding anyway, she would already have told Steve by now that she can’t talk about her being there/why. So he wouldn’t need to ask.

As well as Steve not knowing basic things about her, she also still doesn’t know basic things about Steve, that a casual correspondent of four months would know by now [see below].

We know the rescue of the 107 was on the night of November 3rd, 1943.

Because Phillips cites that date when he’s typing up Steve’s official KIA letter:

The sequence before Steve’s rescue of the 107 also implies that Bucky et al were only captured very recently at Azzano, because:

the rest of the 107 are still there (haven’t been deployed elsewhere),

wounded are still being brought in,

Col. Phillips is still engaged in writing up condolence letters about the lost soldiers when Steve barges into his tent.

(Why is the head of the SSR in Italy, writing condolence letters about the 107 when he specifically said he and his agents were flying out to London, where his HQ is? Here’s a clue from wikipedia: “Alsos personnel followed close behind the front lines in Italy, France, and Germany, occasionally crossing into enemy-held territory to secure valuable resources before they could be destroyed or scientists escape or fall into rival hands.”

However, those personnel would not include the head honcho (Phillips), the entire Army’s number one weapons contractor (Stark), or a desk jockey whose opinion is neither sought nor valued (Peggy).

And the rest of the movie shows them back in London (and therefore not featuring in field footage of the Commandos), while Steve & Co. destroy Hydra weapons factories (not sweep them for intell.)

And they stay in London, until the entire army hits a very important base at the very end of the movie. And even then, Stark isn’t shown attending!

So maybe he was just in Italy for the chorus girls...? 🤷‍♀️

Steve and the Howlies had to have to covered 35 miles as the crow flies (30 miles behind enemy lines + 5 miles to the Army base), with wounded soldiers, and through what Phillips describes as “some of the most heavily fortified territory in Europe” which was also mountainous. They would’ve had to seek a flat route to get the jeeps through. And this with no resources -- like food, medicine, specialised clothing, etc.

Covering 5 miles a day under those extremely difficult and dangerous circumstances, it takes them a week to get back to Camp.

(Sidenote, I looked up a modern estimate of hikers on the Swiss Alps, and it said they’d traverse a 105 mile trail over 7-10 days. Viz. potentially 10.5 miles a day!)

Making the day of Steve’s return 👆 at least, November 10th, 1943.

Marvel Studios' The Marvel Cinematic Universe: An Official Timeline confirms this:

Afterwards, it seems they went straight to London.

(No contact with Peggy in transit is shown or implied).

Sidenote: although no other locations and no other interaction is shown in November, between the 107 returning and Steve being in London, it seems as if some time has passed.

And once again, we can tell that because of Senator Brandt and newspapers.

There has been enough time for more than one newspaper (The Daily Mail, and Stars and Stripes), to publish stories about Steve. 👆

For Senator Brandt to announce that he’ll be giving Steve a medal for valour, and for that news to have travelled back to the UK.

And, at the very least, enough time has elapsed since the 10th of November for the Senator to believe that Steve could feasibly travel back to America in time to receive his medal in person.

(Which he declines to do. LOLOL.)

So, say:

11th: newspapers report (Steve & Co travelling back to London).

12th: news reaches America / Brandt decides / announces the medal.

13th: Brandt expecting Steve to fly from Europe to America (which would’ve taken over 17 hours, then.) Doesn’t necessarily have to be the very next day, but based on past behaviour Brandt expects action to be taken the very same day as the press reporting on Steve! So...

14th: for the actual medal ceremony? (so that Steve isn’t travelling for 17 hours and then immediately appearing in public) Which seems like it’s happening simultaneously with Steve being in London; I don’t think he’d delay on relating his intell about Hydra.

(And that last day would also account for how the news has travelled back to the UK from the US in order to appear in The Daily Mail.)

We know that this day Steve is in London is supposed to be the day he’s receiving his medal, in person, because of this CATFA deleted scene:

So IMO we’re looking at this date being 14th November, 1943 at a very strict minimum.

NB: All this pre-supposes that it takes 4 days to move the Howlies from the Continent back to London, which it feasibly might if they had Stark and his plane, still in Italy. Stark’s deleted-scene surprise at seeing Steve in London suggests either he was not the pilot / his was not the plane responsible for flying Steve to London, or that he was / his was the plane but he expected Steve to move straight on back to the US. We know the SSR had at least one plane in the US Army base in Italy, because someone was flying multiple reconnaissance flights, trying to spot the 107 -- the last of which returned Nov 10th.

In London, Steve and Peggy are shown talking on 2 separate days, total:

1) In the London HQ, relaying the intell about Hydra weapons-parts factories, gathered from the Krausberg weapons-parts factory and from Bucky, when Steve tells Phillips he has got his own team together.

And in the pub, on the evening of that same night, when Steve goes to Assemble the Howling Commandos for the first time.

(No time passing between these conversations is implied or stated, not via montage or any other means. It’s a straight cut. And assembling his team is not something Steve could delay on, after telling his CO he already had one. In fact it’s kinda nuts Steve didn’t think to do this before telling Phillips he had a team already. What would he have done if they’d just said no?? 😂)

2) in the London HQ, the morning of the day after (8am) when Peggy shoots at him.

(Won’t dignify either of those scenes with triggery screencaps!)

So Steve and the Howlies are officially a team from let’s say 14th November, 1943.

(We know there must’ve been a bit of a time delay before the Howlies were deployed, to give Stark time to build Steve the version of the Cap suit he requested -- since Bucky was the one who suggested him keeping it, I’ll bet Bucky had some input on that -- as well as supplying him with those Harley Davidsons WLA ‘Liberators.’

Could be the Howlies weren’t out on the Continent, kickin’ Nazi ass, ‘til December ‘43 or January '44.)

For the next 15.5 months there is no direct contact shown between Steve and Peggy, while Steve is on the continent and she is in London.

At first glance it looks like we can deduce roughly the dates of when Bucky died and Steve returned to London.

Because after capturing him Phillips tells Zola he sent a telegram about him*

*a prop which is not shown directly on screen

...on the morning of February 3rd, 1945:

Soon followed by a tight 24-hour turnaround for them to go and attack the Valkyrie base in Austria, which we know from this 👇 piece of dialogue between Col. Phillips and Gabe Jones:

But.

We don’t know:

1) that the date on the telegram is accurate. This prop is not directly shown in the movie. And, in the scene, Phillips hints at this telegram being intercepted by Hydra and this being bad news for Zola (because it says he is working for SSR. The Foreshadowing is INSANE). So Phillips might have lied on that telegram -- back-dated it to make it look to Schmidt like Zola had betrayed him and been working for the SSR since before the Howlies ‘captured’ him. Making the day of his interrogation... later than the Feb 3rd on the telegram.

2) that Zola Therefore told Phillips ‘you have 24 hours’ on February 3rd. The telegram date could be false. Even if it wasn’t, Zola could’ve said this to Phillips on a subsequent day. He could’ve just told him when the date Red Skull was planning to do something was, and not necessarily 24 hours before that date.

Meaning we can’t tell by the telegram what date the HQ briefing about the Valkyrie mission, and therefore what date the Valkyrie mission (and Steve’s ‘death’) is, for certain. You could interpret it either way.

Steve might have ‘died’ on February 4th, 1945 or on some other date in February / early March, so long as it was 24 hours after Zola told Phillips he only had 24 hours to act, whenever that was. 😵

However, together, Agents of Shield 2.01: Shadows, and Marvel Studios' The Marvel Cinematic Universe: An Official Timeline tie in book, put Steve’s only possible death date as:

Thursday, the 1st of March, 1945.

(Since Morita and Dum-dum capture Werner Reinhardt on 2nd of March, 1945, and Reinhardt remarks that Red Skull is dead. That leaves the 1st as physically the only date in March, before this point, that the Valkyrie mission could possibly have been.)

And we know (from CATWS canon) that Steve’s death was only reported (as a disappearance) on

Monday, 5th March, 1945:

So I think we can definitively say that MCU intends for Steve to have ‘died’ on Thursday, 1st March, 1945. 😥

And the KGB opened a file on Bucky on Friday the 23rd of March, 1945.

It is not categorically stated that the mission where Bucky ‘died’ happened immediately before these late-February scenes in London.👆

He could, theoretically, have died in late 1944, as his exhibit in the Smithsonian in CATWS claims:

However, that exhibit makes multiple other errors...

(Such as: listing two different dates of birth on the same display, saying Bucky enlisted shortly after Pearl Harbour (when nothing in CATFA shows this), and his dog-tag number suggests he was instead drafted; saying he shipped out to Italy and was captured ‘that fall’ of 1942, when that year was definitely shown as 1943, and the Marvel Timeline tie-in book also shows Azzano as happening in October ‘43, etc.)

...So I think we can safely rule this out 👆 as a prop-maker’s mistake!

Plus, Steve’s grief in the pub feels very raw, very immediate, which to me suggest a very-recent bereavement, not something he’s had a couple weeks or months to weep over already. Steve’s a pretty stoic guy.

The only canon suggestion of time passing between Bucky’s ‘death’ and the pub scene is Steve having already had a chance to get back to London and write a report about it, in order to mention said report to Peggy and feasibly expect her to have read it.

As a soldier with a CO to answer to, that report is not something Steve could not delay on delivering. If Steve drinking in the pub is afternoon/evening, say this was the day he delivered his report (probably in the morning, this being the military).

That’s enough time to reasonably expect Peggy to have read the report, and for Steve to be drinking after delivering it, but still neatly groomed in his immaculate uniform, having just gone off-duty (not, eg. dressed down as if this is another, later day, a day off).

On the surface of it, it looks like we can’t say for certain that Steve’s drinking day is the day before Phillips interrogates Zola. Because it’s framed as if the stoicism he exhibits at the end of that sequence is the signal that he is now galvanised to act ASAP, ie. the very next day. One scene leading to / causing another.

Bucky’s ‘death’ date might have been any number of days before.

Except for one thing: Zola is a hugely valuable acquisition.

I don’t think Steve et al would’ve captured and brought Zola back to London, at extraordinary personal cost, only for Phillips to waste days before interrogating him. I think Phillips would’ve been in to interrogate Zola immediately.

That to me is the closest to ‘proof’ that Steve is back in London, delivering his report and then drinking in the pub, either on or as close to the day of Zola’s interrogation as physically possible.

(IMO this can’t all be happening on the same day. I don’t think Steve is the kind of guy to deliver a report in the morning, go off and try to get shit-faced while still on duty / in uniform, and then go back to HQ for mission-briefing, with a risk of still being inebriated. Not under normal circumstances, let alone when the mission is so important! Steve appears to know already that he can’t get drunk... but that doesn’t stop him from trying. I don’t think he’d do that if he knew he was expected back to plan the very-personally-important Bucky avenging mission on the same day. CATFA writers may disagree and say this all happened on the same day, but that idea’s kinda wild to me!)

So when was that interrogation date?

I think we can deduce that it also must’ve been as-close-as-possible to the Valkyrie mission briefing date.

The fact that Gabe is asking how long they have means that that intell was fresh information to the Howlies on the HQ mission briefing date (which was 28th of February = 24 hours before 1st March.)

Now, if Phillips knew about 1st March being significant in advance of 28th February:

it would be incredibly stupid of him to not tell anyone until only 24 hours before.

he would’ve told the Howlies already / Gabe wouldn’t need to ask.

But if Zola only revealed the date of the Valkyrie Mission Day very close to the mission briefing date... that would explain why Phillips didn’t mention it sooner. Another point: A lot of what Phillips says in the mission briefing sounds like a summary and continuation of what we see Zola telling him in the interrogation scene. As if there has been no further interrogation / no more intell to relate since that interrogation, a point in favour of it being the only time he has interrogated Zola (meaning it must be happening on 27th of February).

This scene comes before Steve is shown drinking, alone. (Implying Steve is drinking in the later pm, since it’s dinner time for Zola, just before.)

Assuming Phillips’ telegram about Zola is false (which is neater, and it being a lie is mentioned in the scene, and although we have the prop the prop is not directly shown on-screen in the movie).

Sunday, 25th February. Bucky probably 'died?’

Monday, 26th February. Howlies flying back to London, with Zola?? And since Phillips wouldn’t wait days to deal with Zola:

Tuesday, 27th of February. Morning, Steve delivers his report. Phillips reads the report, and sends a falsely-dated telegram about Zola to Washington via SHAEF HQ. Evening, Phillips interrogates Zola, tells him about the telegram, and Zola tells him about 1st March / Valkyrie Day. (This is during ‘dinner’ time.) Steve goes drinking, alone.

Wednesday, 28th February 1945, Valkyrie Mission briefing.

Thursday, 1st March 1945, Valkyrie Mission day.

NB: This pre-supposes that it only takes a day to move from the Continent back to London, which it would if they had a plane like Stark’s ready to pick them up any time -- which they well might, given how important it is to get Zola back to London, and get the Howlies out to take down the Valkyrie base.

If they didn’t have such a plane, of course, it would take them longer. However, nothing in the movie (such as, eg. a travel-montage) does show it taking longer. It seems to imply a very short timeline.

Sidenote:

Steve never does anything Peggy says or does, always does the exact opposite -- which is the moral, heroic, selfless thing -- and also never asks what she thinks he should do.

This is partly a symptom of poor / misogynist writing, whereby Token ‘Strong Female Character’ Love Interest is relegated to a Sexy Lamp with post-it note stuck to it + behaving like a generic male bully in a female skin + idiot hetero-norms that make any straight couple automatic foils, who must bicker miserably and be on the opposite sides of every argument in order to generate ‘Chemistry.’ 🙄

Ergo, Steve never does what Peggy says, because as his foil what she says it always the opposite of what he says.

Making it, defacto, the [unethical, cowardly, self-serving, tactically unsound] thing to Steve’s [moral, heroic, selfless, also tactically correct] thing.

. (disclaimer: any other aspects of Peggy being unpleasant must be put down to Atwell’s performance choices.) .

Her show erroneously claims that Steve relied heavily upon her for “courage, strategy, and moral guidance."

Passing over the outrageous, insulting, and demonstrably-untrue suggestion that Steve needed external courage, or ethical guidance, from a moral roomba...

(Metas on why this is untrue, and would actually make the plot impossible if it were true!

HERE, HERE, and HERE .👈)

...This would mean Steve is -- somehow -- relying upon a person whom he doesn’t even speak to for 467 of the 473 days when strategic input was even relevant to his life. 🤦‍♀️

The numbers don’t lie.

Steve cannot have been relying upon Peggy for anything when they weren’t even in contact. That’s not physically possible. 🤷‍♀️

This simultaneously puts the lie to the idea of Peggy following the Howlies around Europe to collate intell in the places they hit.

A) because the Howlies aren’t shown sweeping these factories for information. They’re shown reducing them to fiery rubble, which you don’t do if you’re looking for documents. They’re not looking for documents; they’re looking for Zola.

B) even if the Howlies weren’t destroying the factories and were sweeping them for ABC (atomic, biological, chemical) intell, Peggy isn’t the kind of specialist who would even know what to look for. She’s an intelligence liaison, not a scientist. Not even a linguist. That’s not her area of expertise at all. Whereas the Howlies themselves are... surprisingly well qualified? They’ve worked in a Hydra weapons factory, so they know what’s important. Monty’s a Major. Gabe is a fluent German-speaker. Frenchie handles explosives. Dum-dum can drive tanks. Morita looks like a radio expert; shown operating captured Hydra radios more than once. Bucky’s a sniper. Steve’s a tank with a perfect photographic memory. They really don’t need an eighth wheel telling them how to blow up Hydra factories (how would she know?) That’s already their forte.

C) even if Peggy was a technical expert, her opinion is repeatedly denigrated by Phillips who says she was a chancey (ie. ill-qualified) hire. He wouldn’t send someone to judge important documents who is ill-qualified to do so and whose opinion therefore doesn’t carry any weight with him.

D) The only time she’s shown taking part in a mission, it’s actually more of a full blown Army Operation, where even the old man Phillips goes along in person. This is an unusual occurrence, i.e. not something she normally does. Just like I can’t claim that Col. Phillips fought alongside the Howlies, in person, throughout the war, because that is not what is shown, I cannot claim that Peggy did, either. Because that is also not what is shown. (And also why she didn’t join Steve on the mission to rescue the 107. That’s just not her job!)

So when Peggy asks Steve if he was about to... (do something important) mid-Valkyrie mission, and he goes ‘right!’ and carries on.

That’s the closest Steve ever comes to agreeing with her or doing what she says. (Another nonsense claim from her show.)

It’s OOC for Steve, who has proven mostly indifferent to her increasingly unsubtle advances thus far (until she turned violent, whereupon he (or someone else) put her photo in his compass... which is just sad, tbh. 😥)

Whereas, her interrupting the mission at a crucial point to make it about herself (to make Steve kiss her the same way Lorraine also sexually assaulted him) is consistent with her characterisation elsewhere in CATFA (eg. interrupting Steve’s 107 rescue to make him include her in it, when she was irrelevant.)

Even then, it’s something Steve was going to do anyway, regardless of whether she told him to or not. So her input is not a deciding factor in the plot (still a Sexy Lamp). Her net moral/strategic impact on Steve is still zero.

(Another point in the ‘they didn’t spend any time together’ column.)

Conclusion...

Steve and Peggy knew OF each other for 626 days

or 20 months, 15 days / 20.5 months.

(From mid-June 1943 to the beginning of March, 1945.)

They spoke on 2 days max in June, 1943 (the 22nd and probably 23rd, the day of his serum and day after) despite being in the same place for a week prior and sharing a prior car ride!

They spoke on 4 days in November 1943.

Nov 3rd, in Italy, pre-107 rescue,

Nov 10th, in Italy, post-107 rescue,

Nov 14th(?) In London, the day Steve relayed Hydra intell and told Col. Phillips he was assembling his own team, while Brandt was expecting him to be in America receiving his medal for valour; probably the same day the Howlies were founded.

Nov 15th(?) 8am, in London, when Peggy shot him.

They spoke on 2 days in February & March, 1945:

in the pub in London (Tuesday, 27th February?)

the day of the Valkyrie raid (Thursday, 1st March.)

(While they are shown in the same place on another intervening day, at London HQ during mission planning, and it’s possible or even plausible that they did interact, they’re not actually shown speaking to each other on that day.)

Totalling: a maximum of 8 days.

(could be as low as 6.)

And 6 months later, Peggy, Stark and Phillips founded SHIELD and had already recruited Zola into it in order for it to be front page news by

Tuesday, 14th August, 1945:

(Thus putting the lie to the ridiculous idea that they didn’t know they’d recruited Nazis or what they were up to, btw. 👆)

So of the 20.5 total months they knew each other, Steve and Peggy were only shown being in the same place and in contact during (but not for the entirety of) 4 months -- Jun and Nov ‘43, and Feb and March ‘45.

For 19.5 of the 20.5 months they knew of each other they were not even in the same place:

4 months while Steve was on one side of the Atlantic, during the late June-October USO Tour, she was in Europe.

And 15.5 months / 473 days when he was on the continent doing Hydra weapons-parts factory raids (from mid-Nov 1943 - Mar 1945) and she was in London.

And this is deliberate by the film-makers, to depict theirs as a thwarted relationship-that-never-was, a Casablanca style ‘we never dated’ situation.

Not a romance, but what could’ve been a romance, had circumstances been different.

Them not being together is literally the point.

They show zero direct or indirect contact between the two during those 15.5 months, and multiple things imply that there was none.

For example:

She doesn’t know that Steve has a friend in the 107 (a correspondent would).

Steve is surprised to see her.

Steve tells her about what he’s been up to, as if it’ll be new information to her.

(Sidenote: as per She Hulk, Bruce Banner is under the impression Steve slept with some woman during this time. SIGH.)

Despite Agent Carter show’s attempts to retcon her history (stolen valour) with Bucky’s war record (nonsensically, since he is a soldier and she’s supposed to be a spy), the film and script are clear that she isn’t in Europe with the Howlies.

(She complains about having every door shut in her face, professionally, and Phillips says she was only at a desk job because he “took a chance with” hiring her. So she’s complaining about not being in the field.)

Steve wouldn’t be carrying a photo of someone he sees for work all the time. The compass is physical evidence that she wasn’t there.

(Sidenote: He wouldn’t be dating anyone Period, since he specifically said he didn’t want to do that. And Peggy also said she wouldn’t date until after the war is over. But anyway! And, logically, if she's supposed to be a spy she also wouldn’t have her face broadcast in cinemas, making any cover useless, as Steve would know. But anyway! It just highlights how they’re not really doing their jobs of writing her as a spy properly.)

Steve wouldn’t need to take a photo out of an SSR personnel file (which is what it looks like) if he saw her regularly in person for work or if they had been corresponding by letter.

(This simultaneously rules out the possibility that she went out with the Howlies and then went back to London.)

Likewise, Peggy wouldn’t need to steal a photo of Steve out of a personnel file if they had been in regular contact, either in person or by letter.

Steve and the Howlies are shown in direct contact with each other, easily implying a long-standing relationship without having to go to a lot of film-making effort, via montage... but she is not.

Whereas she is shown in the montage, but not being in direct contact. If the film-makers had wanted to show direct contact between them during this montage, they very easily could have. But they didn’t. If she had been there with the Howlies, and it was the film-makers intention to imply that, she would be in the footage with the Howlies, not sitting in a cinema in London watching footage of a mere photo of herself in the newsreels.

By February 1945 she still isn’t on first-name terms with Bucky, Steve’s second in command.

Steve’s time in London was so minimal that when he goes drinking to grieve Bucky, Peggy is able to find him in the Whip & Fiddle, even though it’s in ruins. So either they were in London for such a short period that the pool of places he could potentially be is only one (1), AND/OR that pub is emotionally significant because of Bucky, the person he’s grieving (not her).

We are never shown the Howlies returning to that pub at all until after Steve is also ‘dead’ (ie. no proof they’ve been in London long enough that it’s a place they’ve gone multiple times.) They treat it as a special, 'one-off Solemn Event’ sort of a place to go. Not a regular haunt.

And Steve is still surprised to see her there, meaning he didn’t tell her he was going there; so the reason she finds him can’t be because Steve told her where he was going. (Could be that one of the Howlies told her.)

She still has to ask Steve whether he respected “your friend” Bucky (when even Col. Phillips knows to refer to Bucky as Steve’s oldest friend, by this point).

Steve tells her he can’t get drunk and has to ask whether she knows that already or not. Yet another example of something a close confidante or correspondent of 15+ months would know, that Steve would assume she already knew, if they had been in continuing contact.

(It’s unlikely that Steve himself didn’t know, before this moment. Soldiers who founded their unit in a pub haven’t done any drinking for 15.5 months? Not likely!)

His clever acting choice lends an air of despair and futility to the scene, too -- Steve trying to drink away his sorrows, even though he knows it won’t work. He can’t undo the past, he can’t bring Bucky back. (Had CEvans’s tone been different, it would’ve connoted something else.)

If he was in contact with Peggy, and this is canonically the very kind of thing he would complain about to her (and canonically also the very kind of thing she would tell him more about), then he would’ve complained about it, eg. via letter, too. But he didn’t, because he doesn’t know whether or not she knows. So they weren’t in contact.

It is shown that the updated intelligence of what Steve and the Howlies are accomplishing in Europe during 1944 is being relayed back to HQ in London, because Peggy and other personnel are shown taking Hydra base flags off their maps, as Steve and the Howlies take them out.

(As a consequence of Steve et al taking them out, it’s implied.)

However... it is not shown that Steve directly relayed that information to Peggy.

Peggy herself says that Phillips is in charge of devising strategy, not herself, and Steve soon disregards any strategy suggestions she makes -- in fact, he gives her orders, not the other way around, because he’s a captain.

So if Steve was telling anyone what the Howlies are up to in Europe, it would be his superior officer Phillips. Not an agent like Peggy, of no military rank.

(This is supported by the scene where Steve, having returned from rescuing the 107, goes straight to Phillips to report his successful mission. Not to Peggy, despite her being right there.)

Plus, the Howlie shown handling communications isn’t Steve...

...it’s Morita. 👆 (And guess who interrupts and shoves him out of his seat?)

So if the Howlies were in contact at all during the 15.5 months of Howling Commando Hydra weapons-factory raids:

1) it would’ve been very difficult / limited, and all shop talk. 2) it must’ve so unimportant that no trace of it shows in the film. 3) it probably wouldn’t have been Steve on the radio, anyway. 4) there were only six prospective Hydra weapons factories mentioned as targets for Steve and the Howlies, so only six more occasions when they even might’ve officially interacted:

Roughly:

And while there are more Hydra bases indicated as existing on the maps/via flags removed from the maps...

...None of these 👆 are explicitly linked to Steve and the Howlies, there’s no indication that the existence of these was discovered or relayed (or that they specifically were destroyed) by Steve and Co.

And it’s made out to be a Big Deal that they find out where the Seventh base is, (the base Bucky told Steve they were shipping weapons parts to). Because that’s where Red Skull is.

T I M E L I N E :

1943

JUNE: Mon 14th, Bucky gets his orders, Steve gets a 4F, visits the Stark Expo, meets Erskine, enlists and gets a 1A. Tues 15th, Bucky ships out, Steve arrives at Camp Lehigh. Mon 21st, Steve is chosen for serum. He and Erskine discuss it in the evening. Tues 22nd, Steve receives serum, Erskine is killed, Steve stops the Hydra saboteur, and is photographed by a NYE journalist. Wed 23rd morning, Phillips speaks to the President and the SSR is immediately re-tasked, Steve appears on the front page of The New York Examiner, the Hydra sub is moved to dry dock. afternoon, Steve has his blood drawn, Stark examines the Hydra sub, Phillips relays the President’s orders, Brandt recruits Steve into the USO when he objects to Phillips's orders. night, Phillips, Stark, and Peggy, fly out to London.

JULY-OCT: Steve in the USO, travelling across America.

OCT/NOV: Bucky and the Howlies are captured by Hydra at Azzano.

NOVEMBER: 3rd, afternoon, Steve does USO show in Italy, 5 miles behind enemy lines. evening, Steve rescues 107.

10th, Steve returns to base with 400 soldiers of the 107, having safely travelled 35 miles including 30 miles of mountainous heavily fortified enemy terrain, with wounded in tow.

? 11th-14th, Steve's rescue is reported in Stars and Stripes, Senator Brandt decides to give him a medal for valour, news gets back to UK and appears in The Daily Mail. Brandt expects Steve to come back to the US to receive his medal in person. Steve declines.

? 14th, London, HQ, Steve relays Hydra intell to Phillips and Peggy, night, Steve recruits Bucky & the Howlies, takes Bucky's input on the suit.

? 15th, London, HQ, 8am, Steve gets sexually assaulted, Steve gets physically assaulted (Peggy shoots at him), Steve picks the shield, Steve relays Cap uniform ideas to Stark. .

1944

Howlies deployed in Europe, taking out 6 Hydra weapons factories shown in Italy, Greece, France, Czech Rep. and Poland. (Avengers 1 deleted scene also shows Steve taking part in the planning of D-Day, which would’ve put him and the Howlies in France from 6 June 1944 - August, if they took part. And I thought there was a reference to Steve taking part in the Battle of the Bulge too, somewhere, so that would be Dec-Jan ‘44-45.) .

1945

FEBRUARY: (possible) Sun 25th, Bucky ‘KIA.’ (possible) Mon 26th, Howlies & Zola travelling back to London.

(possible) Tues 27th, London am, Steve writes/delivers a report about Bucky, goes drinking to grieve. Phillips (reads Steve’s report? knows about Bucky) sends a misleading telegram about Zola, back-dated February 3rd, to Washington via SHAEF. pm, Phillips interrogates Zola and finds out 1st March is Valkyrie Day.

Wed 28th, London, HQ, Valkyrie Mission briefing.

MARCH: Thurs 1st, Atlantic. Steve and Red Skull 'KIA.' Last contact with Peggy. Fri 2nd, Moria and Dum-dum capture Werner Reinhardt. Mon 5th, Steve reported "disappeared" in newspaper. Fri 23rd, KGB opens file on Bucky.

APRIL: Surviving Howlies are mopping up remaining Hydra personnel in Europe? MAY. Tues 8th, V-E Day. London. The Howlies reunite at the Whip & Fiddle, for the first time since they were founded there, to drink a toast in remembrance of Steve.

AUGUST: Tues 14th, Stark, Phillips and Carter have founded SHIELD and recruited Zola and more, which is reported on front page news.

TL;DR: They knew of each other for 626 days total, (from 15th June 1943 - 1st March 1945), 20.5 months; 19.5 of which they weren’t in the same place, and only spoke on 8 separate days.

82 notes · View notes

percheduphere · 5 months

Text

LET'S TALK ABOUT MOBIUS'S HEAVY KEYS

I wrote a meta on S1 Mobius here, mostly exploring his interrogation persona and emotional trajectory toward S1E6. I also have a fun little list on all the things I love about him here.

@mitromana posted about how we should talk about Mobius's sass and even cruelty more. @wowwwmobius posted how Mobius realistically would not be doing well post-S2E6 (I wholeheartedly agree), and they and @inwantofamuse shared amazing comments. All of this inspired this meta.

Thank you @mitromana @wowwwmobius @inwantofamuse!

Mobius's interrogation scenes are him at his most cruel and ruthless. The flipside of being a highly empathetic person is that it is very VERY easy to use this skill in highly abusive, cunning, and powerful ways. This is especially true if the person armed with this skill is exceptionally intelligent and is convinced their motivations are good. At the TVA, before Loki's exposure of the truth, Mobius is both of these things. Worse, he has access to the TVA's more ethically unconscionable technology, which he does not hesitate to use.

The road to evil is paved with good intentions. Mobius strolls onto this road more than once, but he manages to not stay on it because two people curb this risk: Loki and, yes, Sylvie.

Take in Loki's words and posture in this scene. The words alone are a frail and weak comeback for a silver-tongue God of lies. They do nothing but reveal Loki is in FACT scared. His arms are crossed tightly over his abdomen, a primal protective response. He's leaned as far away from Mobius as possible. This is the best Loki can come up with in the face of a boring man in a boring suit, really?

You can see why Mobius was moved into the position of Analyst from Hunter. He may not be able to prune children, but he can literally bring a God like Loki to the ground, breathless, confused, and frightened, with nothing more than WORDS. And this is with a variant Mobius likes. Imagine what he can do to a variant he hates.

For HWR and Ravonna's purposes, Mobius is the perfect weapon to get whatever they want out of whatever variant they capture before sending them off to get pruned. How do they keep him from questioning anything?

Memory-wiping (more than once), brainwashing, propaganda, and:

A little something for Mobius's identity, something that fulfills his intrinsic need to take care of others while also gently stroking his ego.

Yes, the genocide of multiple timelines over the span of eons is horrifying. But Mobius is capable of being complicit with it as long as his environment feeds his intrinsic psychological and emotional needs. The people on the Sacred Timeline become his new children, and he will do anything ANYTHING to protect them.

There was one thing HWR and Ravonna didn't anticipate: that this man's empathy for a specific Loki would be the very thing that liberates the multiverse and his own bondage from a corrupt bureaucracy.

However...

I don't believe Mobius ever anticipated becoming emotionally compromised when he advocated on Loki's behalf. He likely genuinely believed that after centuries of studying Loki, he knew him well enough to make him useful for the TVA. But the subconscious, oh. That is a different story, and in Loki's own words, Mobius has a gift for lying to himself.

I discuss the interrogation scene and Sif loop scene in depth here, so I won't repeat myself, but I'd like to draw our attention to the 2 gifs below, framing my analysis:

Imagine where Mobius's mind must be at:

I spent centuries studying you and believing in you. I waited more centuries for your nexus event to come. I tasked every hunter to inform me of your arrival immediately, no matter what I was doing, no matter where I was. I abandoned a case. I ran to your trial. I put my job, reputation, and eons-long friendship with Ravonna on the line. I tested your theory. I brought you with me on the field. You talked to me. You challenged me. You made me proud. You made me laugh.

I gave you daggers and you stabbed me. You STABBED me. When all I wanted to give you was--

Mobius cracked hard and fast. Applaud Owen Wilson for THIS interpretation of the script and THIS delivery.

Thankfully, the very person who put Mobius in this fragile state of mind is also the person Mobius deeply wants to believe in. Even after being betrayed, Mobius still wants to believe in Loki and his capacity to be a wonderful person. And so he looks at Ravonna's TemPad, decides Loki deserves to be with whoever he wants to be with (even if that person will never be Mobius himself), frees Loki to help him save the woman he loves, and gets pruned for it.

Mobius survives thanks to plot-armor. And who is the first person he meets?

The bane of his existence.

And Sylvie wastes no time driving a knife into a very fresh wound. Mobius, however, only recently unleashed all his rage. His reservoir for compartamentalizing has refreshed, so he can take Sylvie's truth bravely, without a flinch, and acknowledge that truth with one of his own.

Mobius owns it. He doesn't deny it. He tacitly agrees with her and gives her a reason why.

We should remember how dangerous Mobius can be. He is currently sitting in a car with the variant he is most likely to hate. Sylvie is strong, clever, and resilient, but her ability to regulate her emotions is weak, especially if she is triggered. Mobius can destroy her very easily with his words.

But Mobius can't hate her. He can't. She was right and he was wrong, but most importantly Loki loves her.

He won't hurt the person Loki loves most. No. He will take her to him instead. He can stomach the pain, the disappointment. He's good at that. Loki's well-being, his happiness, comes first.

In fact, Mobius stomachs Sylvie's knife twists a second time and chooses not to defend himself. I don't doubt a large part of him agrees with her. Nevertheless, he can't help but hope Loki might stand up for him in that moment. He tries, and fails, to make light of it by rolling his eyes and turning to his friend. When Loki leaves him not explaining why, his true feelings about this interaction surfaces on his face.

Aren't you going to say anything?

The saddest thing is that this is the LAST intimate moment THIS Mobius has with Loki before Loki crosses the gangway and never returns. This is it. This is what he's left with: the thought Loki didn't care enough to defend him and Loki leaving.

HE doesn't get to hear that he's just trying to see in the dark and is doing everything he can to keep the surviving timelines alive. SYLVIE does.

HE doesn't get to hear Loki tell him he saved his life. DON does.

HE doesn't get the final goodbye and "thank you, Mobius", his PAST SELF does. And if Mobius happens to remember this moment in the present, he will know that he was the one who propelled Loki to bear this massive burden ALONE.

My worry for Mobius post-S2E6 is that he is more than talented at ignoring his own needs and addressing his own problems. He is infinitely better--a master, even--at taking care of anyone else. It's a devastating flaw, but it comes from a very raw place:

His heart, his soul, will always remember being a single parent.

Being a parent at all is hard to begin with. There are only so many hours in a day, and the majority of it is devoted to putting someone else's needs before your own. Being a single parent is even harder. You might have a few people to help you, but ultimately, there's no partner to share every high and low intimately. To be a single parent of not one but TWO children?

Game over.

Some viewers have interpreted Don ignoring his sons' phone calls at work as negligent. Honestly, I don't think that's the case. He will call them back. Don is Mobius and Mobius is Don. He will take care of them. But refusing every beck and call at work is the only personal boundary he has. He cannot have many boundaries for himself at home or anywhere else. He has to decline not one but two calls for his own sanity. Nevermind that he works Monday through Saturday, nine to five, to make enough money to keep them healthy and happy. Where is the break? There is none. This is Don's glorious purpose.

Mobius leaving the TVA is understandable for two crucial reasons: One, it is a reminder of all his horrifying acts and complicity. Two, it is a reminder Loki is no longer there. But by leaving the TVA, Mobius separates himself from his only support system. That's not good. That is decidely unhealthy. The fact that it doesn't cross B-15, Casey, or OB's minds that this is a very bad idea tells you everything you need to know about the number of genuinely close friends Mobius has.

Mobius has two. He walked away from one to be with the second, and the second walked away from him, too. TWICE.

But he still loves him anyway.

When you take a man like this and take away everything that's kept him functional: the TVA, Ravonna, Loki, and then show him a content life in which he cannot even be with his own children because another version of him already exists, what do you think will happen to him given we've seen how violently Mobius can snap?

And guess what: only one person has ever seen Mobius snap on more than one occasion. Only one person understands the triggers and how to handle them. I'll give you three guesses as to who it is.

Mobius "has a happy ending" is absolute bullshit. He is at risk.

#loki #mobius #lokius #loki series #loki season 2 #loki spoilers #loki meta #sylvie #my meta

258 notes · View notes

rosielav · 1 year

Text

Rosie's Favorite (currently finished/caught up) Podcasts:

The Amelia Project - silly, quirky, morbid but almost always more jaunty and eccentric than completely dark. Great for anyone who loves 'narrator' or interview type podcasts. If I'm not mistaken, I've posted some of my thoughts on here using the pod's hashtag.

The Mistholme Museum of Mystery, Morbitity, and Mortality - another narrator type podcast, and probably my favorite of all time. The main voice you hear is perfect imo and keeps you engaged in all the right ways, bringing tension where it's needed, and levity where it's funny or odd. Absolutely consumed this podcast with a voraciousness I haven't felt for a bit. Keeps you guessing and always wanting more from every exhibit.

Victoriocity - excellent voice acting, interesting and unique premise and setting, and great plot. One of the podcasts I'm most looking forward to returning :) think steam punk but also it's the 1800s still in weird ways. If you love an old timey British accent, you'll love this haha.

The White Vault - probably my favorite specifically horror podcast, that makes you wait for answers in a craving sort of way, a longing to know what's going on, and not slogging through a bunch of filler to then get answers. It's great, gorey, geographically diverse fun. Interesting mashups of various cultures re: mythology, history, religion(?). Another on my list to watch out for the return of.

Midnight Burger: the quick pitch is - a time traveling diner that always services people in need, no matter what time, space, or dimension they may reside in. Excellent cast of characters, great development, wonderful implementation of a new character(s), and in general a very comfortable vibe to return to (speaking of, once I run out of recommendations I may relisten to this one). Highly recommend if you like sitcoms with time travel splashed with a bit of horror.

Edit: just finished up another one, so time to add it to the list!!

Monstrous Agonies: A radio show advice segment, about, by, and for the Creature Community. If you like WTNV, but find it a bit intense sometimes, or a bit too plot heavy/etc, you'll absolutely love this. Instead of the whole show, you just get the advice segment, but oh ho ho, is it so much more than that. If you're queer, BIMPOC, from a blended/mixed/broken/anything but 'typical' home... I think you'll like it. Very much what I would call 'easy listening', meaning you can just ease into an episode without having to remember a huge cast of characters, a plots b plots C plots meta plots... And it just feels *real*, in that strange and beautiful way WTNV does, but instead of a fictional town, the setting is the real world, with real problems, and real solutions. Sometimes you really do just need to howl or cry or chew on some slippers and that's OK. Highly recommend for ADHD havers or anyone with a short attention span who loves a soothing voice.

Edit: Another absolute banger to add to the list

Wooden Overcoats - how do I even properly describe the experience of this podcast. Let's start with the basics: It's the story of twins who run a funeral parlor on a small island, in a small village. Their family has been running said parlor for hundreds of years, as the only funeral directors on the island. Until one day... They aren't. A man arrives and sets up his own funeral parlor directly across the square, and boy, do things change for those twins. If you've listened to (and loved) Victoriocity, or The Amelia Project, I guarantee you'll enjoy this one. Strange, silly, and interesting things are always happening, except this one doesn't have quite as much drama (well...... Perhaps a different kind of drama. I'd call this an interpersonal dramedy, with emphasis on the comedy). An incredible listen, through and through. I thoroughly enjoyed every single episode, and the ending was quite safisfying :)

Another EXCELLENT addition to this ever increasing list of content!!! I'm not even finished with this one, I just love it so much that I can't help but add it to the list:

Mission Rejected - you know in those spy movies, where the spy gets a secret message from HQ and they say 'your mission, if you choose to accept it...' ok great. Now imagine if 007 said 'no'. This is the story about the backups, the team that takes the missions rejected by the Top Spy Guy. It's got diverse voice acting (in many senses of the word - you can tell the voices apart, it's not exclusively straight cis white dudes, etc etc), wonderful worldbuilding, great pacing, an excellent plot, I really could go on and on. I highly recommend this specific podcast to anyone who wants something light to get deeply invested in, that has a lot of comedy but also develops the characters outside of just their bits. 100/10 no notes

Edit: not sure which podcast/podcast enthusiast rb'ed this yesterday but I'm so glad more folks get to see this list!!! It makes me so happy that lots of folks enjoy this list, a d share their fave ones, and!!!! Aaaggghhhhhhhhh!!! I love podcasts and podcast enthusiasts!!!!!

Also I have another one for yall :3 if you're looking for another improv comedy to add to your list!!!

Hey Riddle Riddle - exactly what you think it is, but also so much more. Three friends/coworkers who also happen to be sensational improv comedians solve riddles and puzzles together, while also introducing bits and skits and reoccurring segments, so it never feels like 'just a Riddle podcast' (whatever that means). I have laughed every single episode, which is a big deal for me (some comedy podcasts only make me laugh every few episodes, and I require at LEAST one laugh per episode). I can genuinely say this is one of the funniest podcasts I've ever listened to, and the absolute best improv I've ever heard. I'm all for committing to the bit, and this one absolutely delivers on both the commitment part and the bit part haha. Seriously can't recommend this one enough if you maybe listen to a lot of drama/horror and need something easy to listen to (easy meaning there's not a plot you have to be intensely listening for, you can just enjoy it casually). 1000/10, please listen and also tell me YOUR favorite riddles :)

#podcasts #podcast recommendation #Midnight Burger #victoriocity #the amelia project #the mistholme museum of mystery morbidity and mortality #the white vault #I spent a lot of time in Midnight burgers first episode wondering if Zebulon was Paul F Thompsons lmao #Anyways I love these podcasts please someone ask me about them #I desperately want to interact with more podcast people #Yell at me about podcasts #Ask me about my favorite characters or episodes #monstrous agonies #wooden overcoats #mission rejected podcast #Skip Grainger has made me realize what a blorbo truly is. I love this man. I love him so fucking much. With his little filing systems.#I want to scrunch him down and put him in my pocket forever I wanna just rotate him around in my brain he's the perfect lil guy #Finally a man i could truly feel safe around like... This man understands platonic love like no other man I've ever seen #hey riddle riddle

619 notes · View notes

veinsfullofstars · 2 months

Text

⭐ Memories of friendship ⭐

(ID: Kirby series fanart, Childhood Friends AU, featuring young Dedede, Meta, Para Dee, and Bow Dee hanging out and interacting in various cute and silly scenarios. More detailed descriptions and bonus headcanons under the cut. END ID.)

Just a buncha li’l guys. The littlest of lads. I could literally fill pages with all the wholesome slice-of-life nonsense I have in mind for these kids (and maybe the smallest touch of angst, too, but that’s for later). Also might’ve made DDD’s overalls a little brighter to match his coat in the future. Also made refs for Para and Bow.

UPDATE 03/11/24: Added a few misc. details.

Sketches started btw 11/23 and 12/23, render started 12/13/23, finished 01/07/24. NOTE: This was originally posted on my deleted account on 01/08/23.

—

Image descriptions

Top-left: Meta carrying DDD by his hands and lifting him (with great difficultly) into the air (probably only a few inches off the ground), the latter laughing happily and kicking his feet, the former grimacing with effort and flapping his little wing as hard as he can.

(HC: Even at a young age, Meta is built more for dexterity than strength, and DDD isn’t exactly as light as the rest of his buddies - not that it stops either of them from doing something dumb in the name of a dare.)

Top-middle: Meta and Para holding open a large book between them (the image of Planet Popstar on the cover), reading and discussing its contents (as indicated by a wall of blue and green “Blah”s behind them), while Bow (slumped on Meta’s side) and Dedede (reclining back on Para’s side) are both fast asleep from boredom.

(HC: Needless to say, Meta and Para are huge nerds, often seen checking out half a dozen books at at time from the local library and finishing them before the week is out. Bow and DDD try to be interested, but they just don’t have the attention spans for huge walls of tech jargon and dusty old history.)

Top-right: Para floating with his parasol (patterned the same green-and-brown plaid as his bowtie), sweating and kicking his feet wildly, looking down in terror; Meta hovers nearby on his wings, looking on in surprise at his panicking friend.

(HC: Despite his proficiency, Para rarely uses his parasol for anything besides keeping himself dry in the rain. He is deathly afraid of heights and has gotten himself stuck in trees more than once thanks to his buddies’ daredevil antics.)

Middle-right: Bow - angered by something off-screen - furiously kicking and flailing about, her face red with rage, as DDD casually holds her up off the ground by the top of her head, looking annoyed and bored.

(HC: It doesn’t take a lot to set Bow off. Despite her tiny size, she can be an absolute terror when she’s upset about something, and the boys know this well. DDD is often the one to hold her back when she gets too rowdy, a role he’s not particularly thrilled to have. Stars help anyone in her line of sight if no one’s around to calm her down.)

Middle: Meta and DDD sitting side-by-side, the former in a rare excitable mood as he fidgets and chatters on about all kinds of things (indicated by several word bubbles with images inside, including ice cream, swords, bats, planets, stars, rockets, and Galacta Knight’s mask); DDD listens with surprising patience, a fond (if somewhat exasperated) smile on his face.

(HC: Meta is usually a very quiet kid, his silence filled by DDD being his typical boisterous self. Sometimes, though, when they’re just hanging out by themselves, Meta will find an opening - usually provided by DDD - and go off on tangents as random and hyper-focused as his more talkative buds. Not many people get to see him this animated or comfortable, and DDD - who’s seen them the most - cherishes these moments, even if it’s embarrassing to admit.)

Bottom-left: DDD dashing to our left, a determined grin on his face, as his friends ride Piggyback on his back - first Meta, wings out and free arm waving in excitement, then Para, clinging desperately to Meta with a look of panic on his face, and finally Bow, hanging off of Para and laughing merrily.

• (HC: DDD is always dragging his friends into one crazy scheme or another, usually at a full-tilt sprint and without much forethought beyond “C’mon, it’ll be fun!” Meta is often swept up in the excitement, too curious and eager to learn to worry much about danger. Para is the embodiment of “I don’t know about this, guys…” but too lenient to really stop them. Bow will literally follow the boys off of a cliff as long as there’s fun to be had.)

Bottom-right: Bow, DDD, and Meta sitting in the grass surrounded by butterflies (their bodies black and wings white with dark edges, save one in the back with yellow wings rimmed in orange and red). One lands on DDD’s beak, and he pokes at it curiously, staring cross-eyed. Bow trembles behind him, staring at the butterfly in watery-eyed terror over his shoulder. Meta tilts his head to look at her with an expression of bemused concern, a butterfly settled on his foot.

(HC: Bow will tell you she isn’t afraid of anything. In many cases, this is true. She will routinely stare down threats ten times her size and promise to beat them up on the spot before someone more rational pulls her out of harm’s way. But, if there is a bug anywhere in her immediate vicinity, she will absolutely run for the hills. DDD used to tease her about this, hiding bugs in his hands to scare her. He stopped as soon as she started panic-smacking him.)

#veins art #veins fanart #fanart #kirby series #kirby #king dedede #meta knight #original character #oc #kirby oc #my ocs #para dee #bow dee #AU #childhood friends au #leetol guys #who let them be so small?#(I did. it was me)#veinsfullofstars

57 notes · View notes

orionsangel86 · 1 year

Note

I'm sorry but why do you ship them so hard? They just have 1 episode together.. I watched the sandman expecting destiel and it was literally almost nothing there. 1 episode. Idk how you guys got so much ship content out of that.

Ah nonny, I'm sorry but if you go into anything expecting Destiel you are gonna be dissappointed. Destiel is a behemouth of 12 years worth of gradually escalating gay subtext, queer coding, and romantic tropes. Destiel is the ship that people go into expecting that Tumblr exaggerated only to be blown away by how ridiculously gay it is even when it tries so hard not to be.

But remember, once upon a time people shipped Destiel after only a few moments of interaction. The first Destiel fic was written 30 minutes after Lazarus Rising aired...everything has its time.

When I joked that Dreamling was the "Destiel of Sandman fandom" I meant in terms of popularity compared to everything else about the show. The ships share some similar traits when compared on a grand scale - think ancient cosmic entity that has very strict rules slowly changes and starts to become more "human" thanks to their friendship with one dude who just so happens to be a hedonistic stubborn ass who refuses to die - but are otherwise very different.

But if you are wondering why people ship Dream and Hob so hard, well, this post goes some ways to explaining it.

But basically, look this may only be a half hour of television, but it doesn't equate in universe to half an hour of interaction. This half hour of television spans the course of 6 centuries for these two characters. There is a totally untapped potential hidden in the gaps between centuries to explore, and on top of that, the final meeting is left completely up to the imagination of the audience. Its a sandbox ship. Its a dozen fanfiction gaps laid on top of each other. It's at least 20 different prompts for fans to sink their teeth into. Its the potential. It's the what if.

Then on top of that, if you follow the comics, you know that the future Dream x Hob meetings also have a hell of a lot of potential to turn romantic. Dream going out of his way to hunt down a specific bottle of wine that doesn't exist on Earth anymore to gift it to Hob in his dreams, the very fact that he visits Hob in his dreams (hello common Destiel trope right there). They don't meet too many more times in the comics, but each time the tension is palpable. The meeting in the Kindly Ones is heartbreaking, because you can tell desperately how much they need each other at that moment, but they are both too distracted or consumed by grief and depression to truly reach out to one another. The comics never reveal why Dream sought Hob out at that point, but given everything happening to him at the time, its not hard to assume that Dream was seeking comfort from his friend - the only person he could really turn to for comfort at that point.

Then we have Hob's dream. One of the final stories in The Sandman original comic run. After everything else has happened, after the climax and all that takes place, after the smoke has cleared and you think everyone else has moved on and you are certain the ending is set in stone, you get to Hob's dream, and your mind is once again blown, and suddenly you have a thousand more questions. So many fans hopes and dreams rely on Hob's dream right now I can't even begin to express how important that particular comic issue is to me.

It's all about the potential. There is so much potential.

Plus the 30 minute scene we got was loaded full of subtext, romantic tropes, and queer coding. I dunno if you picked up on it, but I have an extremely long meta essay still in the works that goes through everything that 30 minute sequence gives us in terms of shipping fodder (I really need to finish that). Its not just the romantic tropes, the break up and make up, its the acting choices, the eye fucking, the freaking song choices in 1989 holy fuck could they be more on the nose.

Also, consider this thought experiment: Crowley and Aziraphale in Good Omens are a hugely popular ship, where their creator Neil Gaiman has confirmed that theirs is a love story. Whatever else you may believe about Crowley and Aziraphale, their story is a love story. Creator confirmed love story.

Now, Crowley and Aziraphale are the leads of Good Omens and interact throughout the entire 6 episode show. But consider the first half of episode 3. Imagine a version of Good Omens where Crowley and Aziraphale don't really interact outside of that 30 minute opening sequence. That the story was much more focused on the Them, the Horsemen, and the other characters. Imagine then seeing that 30 minute sequence which shows Crowley and Aziraphale slowly warming to each other and becoming friends over the centuries, shows them getting to know each other, do each other favours, come to each others defence, get into fights and break up with each other, only to make up later...

Would you still ship them? Even if that 30 minute sequence was all you got? I guarantee if I asked any Ineffable Husbands fan that question they would say yes. Because THAT 30 minute sequence is what solidifies the importance of their relationship and its what MAKES IT a love story.

Guess where Neil Gaiman got the idea for that 30 minute sequence in Good Omens from? Ah Neil, plagiarising his own work all these years later!

If Neil Gaiman thought that Men of Good Fortune would work well for a canonical love story in Good Omens, I wonder what he was thinking when he then adapted Men of Good Fortune for television?

THE POTENTIAL.

I ship Dreamling that hard because it has more potential than any other ship I have come across. It has 6 centuries and all the future of the Sandman show for me to explore, to tweak, to play with. Besides they just suit each other ya know? Like Dream is notoriously bad at relationships, but Hob is literally perfect for him. The more my mind dwells on how perfect Hob is for Dream the more I want to scream about it. Give the sad wet cat man a boyfriend who is literally his opposite in every way. Dream is a character looking for a reason to keep living, and Hob is a character who refuses to die. Dream is a pessimist, Hob is an optimist. Dream is afraid of change, Hob literally changes constantly with the times. Dream is desperate for love and someone to stay by his side, Hob just wants to love someone he doesn't have to eventually leave.

Let them meet in the middle.

#dreamling #destiel #the sandman #there is a destiel quote in there somewhere #they met in the middle #lol #sandman comic spoilers #dream of the endless #hob gadling #sandman meta #dreamling meta #asks

261 notes · View notes

lurksunderthebed · 5 months

Text

Ghoap Analysis/Meta (2.5)

The Evolution of GhostSoap Redux

Finally finishing Codmwii (22), via discussion of "Ghost Team" and "Countdown".

Discussing Ghost's face reveal and what it means to his character motivations/backstory.

Part (2.5/?) out of a series.

Brief mentions of MWIII. Practically spoiler free.

Please read the Alt text.

As I said more or less in my previous post, "Ghost Team" and "Countdown" doesn't have as many GhostSoap interactions by virtue of having the whole gang altogether again.

But what we do have however is the final evolution of Ghost as Trusting Teammate Ghost and a teasing look at our favourite masked character's face.

In this post, there'll be less analysis based on dialogue and more speculation/assumptions so take that as you may.

So let's look at "Ghost Team".

Ghost Team

Price: Alright, listen - We are taking back your HQ. We are getting our prisoner. We are killing Commander Graves.

Rodolfo: When?

Ghost: Now.

Price: This is a fight against our own... We are not 141 and Los Vaqueros on this. We're a team...

Ghost empties a bag full of skull masks onto the table.

Price: ...Ghost Team.

Ghost removes his mask in front of everyone, although the camera shows only the back of his head. Price nods and smiles at Ghost.

Price: Good to see you again, Simon.

Price removes his boonie hat.

Price: If you're in, take a mask... If you're not... Don't.

Everyone around the table takes a skull mask. The camera circles around Rodolfo, Gaz, Soap, Alejandro, Price, and finally Ghost as they put on their masks.

"Ghost Team" is bluntly named after Ghost finally deciding, hey these are all trustworthy guys and I'll show you the proof of my trust, by extending trust via face reveal. It's an extension of his previous statement in "Prison Break" that, "We're a team... all of us". It's like a switch with Ghost; once he decides to trust someone, to really consider them as Team, he proves it with his actions.

I know many out there were disappointed by Ghost showing his face to everyone, in fact I was too. In some ways it does feel a bit like whiplash to have Ghost struggle so hard to trust Soap and then in a span of 16 traumatic hours, he takes off his mask in front of all everyone. Remember this isn't just Rudy/Ale and 141, this is also a bunch of random soldiers from Los Vaqueros who were imprisoned seeing his face.

So why does he do that? And more importantly, does Ghost actually trust all of Los Vaqueros and Gaz as much as he now comes to trust Soap and Price?

To answer that we have to look at why Ghost might have decided to take off his mask, his thought process on doing so and the events leading up to this.

Let's go back to the cutscene before the whole reveal:

These are two separate frames that we are shown while Price is talking to Shepherd. We have Soap, Gaz, Alejandro and Ghost listening in.

Now this is again all interpretation and assumptions, but if you look closely, Ghost is noticeably a fair distance away from the rest of the gang.

For a guy who is extending a lot of trust by showing his face in the next scene, it's interesting that he's still framed as a man somewhat separate from the bunch. I know the framing was partially because showing all 4 men distinctly would mean placing them neatly like that.

But putting that aside, they could've placed Ghost closer to Soap. He could've taken Alejandro's spot on the opposite side of the table. It would make sense to group all of 141 closer together. Ghost has worked with Gaz since 2020 in Verdansk. They've known each other for 2 years already while Ghost has only known Alejandro (and los Vaqueros) for a whopping 5 days.

Again, they didn't. Personally, given how much the game relies on framing to indirectly inform players of character relationships, I'm going to read into this probably deeper than it's supposed to be.

One way to look at it, is that Ghost still isn't completely trusting of the rest. He still holds himself apart from the rest. Physical positioning actually does matter when we look at Ghost because 9 out of 10 times it isn't what Ghost is saying that matters insofar as what the man is actually DOING that determines his motivations.

It says a lot that the game decided to frame Soap and Gaz together and yet Ghost isn't placed closer to Price nor Soap—the two men we know he is the closest to.

Potentially, we can infer that Ghost taking off his mask in the next scene was a bigger leap of faith than thought before.

Ghost has decided to trust men (random Los Vaqueros) that he maybe hasn't personally talked to before. It's quite the jump, especially since we know that he STILL holds himself apart from everyone (even Price&Soap).

There's a couple ways we can look at why Ghost decided to do the face reveal.

Maybe Ghost showing his face happens more than we think and that's why it was so easy for him to reveal his face? Perhaps Ghost freely takes off his mask on his downtime and only truly cares about it being on or off while he's working.

It's possible. There's no way to determine Ghost's actions outside of him on duty. But even that doesn't fit right with the fact that we see him all masked up and bundled in layers in the bar scene at the end of this game and at the end of MWIII. Both times he could've gone with something more casual looking and less anon if he truly was someone a bit different than how he presents himself on the job.

Granted, the times we do see him in a more casual context, he's with his co-workers so it's not quite the fairest assumption to make. Perhaps he separates who he is with people who know him as Ghost with who he is when people don't.

But given what we have and what we already know of the man, I think it's fair to assume that how Ghost is in-game is probably how he acts when he's off duty.

After all, the one person (Price) who knows Ghost as both, the LT still isn't that close to. There's respect and trust but the casual joking friendship you see between Price and Laswell isn't there. That might be more on the fact that Price is still Ghost's superior so maybe the man just likes to keep their relationship on a strictly hierarchical basis. (Yes, I know Ghost jokes at Price in MWIII, but that was arguably more for Soap and also at Price's expense).

We know that showing his face isn't something Ghost does habitually. Soap hasn't seen it before and they've worked together for 3 years already, 2 of which they were in the SAME taskforce. They had to have seen each other a fair bit considering that Soap, Ghost and Gaz are apparently the only 141 operatives.

If there were more 141 operatives, I would expect them to come out in MWIII especially with the whole Makarov/brink of war thing, so unless any new info comes out I'm assuming that 141 is just Price, Ghost, Soap and Gaz with random loaned soldiers to pad their ranks when needed on missions.

So why does Ghost decide to take off his mask if him showing his face isn't a casual thing when he's off duty, nor does he fully trust PEOPLE as a whole?

Honestly, I see this as a massive leap of faith/hope and Ghost wanting to see things done right this time around.

As I said previously where I somewhat go into Ghost's backstory, there's an implication with Mace's inclusion that there was/is a unit of 'Ghost' styled operatives who might have all worn the ghost mask. Added with the fact that the reboot likes to take a lot of character depth from the older popular games in the franchise, it's not a stretch to assume Mace and Ghost being teammates are a nod to Ghost squad in cod: ghosts.

We know there was a betrayal of sorts, potentially one that might have involved those fellow ghosts. Mace left the unit and there's an ominous, "things are very different now" statement by the dev about Ghost and Mace's time as teammates.

Perhaps the title "Ghost Team" wasn't so much named after the man, Simon "Ghost" Riley, but rather after the 'Ghost' unit that Ghost and Mace were on.

Maybe Price calling them all "Ghost Team" was actually referencing that unit.

This is based on assumptions but hear me out.

We know Price obviously knows what Ghost looks like. The captain references the LT by name a couple times before: when talking about him to Laswell in the ending scene in 2019, in Verdansk (via comms) in 2020 and now here after Ghost takes off his mask. There's a relationship in between the lines that suggests that Price knew him before Simon Riley ever became Ghost.

Therefore we can also assume that Price also knows what happened to Ghost and potentially the details of that unnamed unit as his current direct superior. With Price's connections and his casual disregard for rules, I'd be surprised if he wasn't familiar with that hypothetical Ghost squad.

I think the biggest nod to this, is Price having on hand a bunch of skull balaclavas. He could've gone with plain balaclavas if just being anonymous was the concern, but didn't; the choice of a skull pattern was deliberate. This was potentially planned out prior to Price's rescue of the group in "Prison Break".

Unless Ghost just randomly keeps 6+ extra skully balaclavas on his body at all times, it's most likely Price that brought the balaclavas with him.

There probably wasn't enough time for Ghost to communicate to Price of Shepherd's betrayal and thus their need to hide their faces to fight the general. In "Alone", the LT even mentions it to Soap that they have to rely on themselves and not Price or Laswell. Heck at that point, Ghost didn't even trust Laswell. Only Price, Soap and everyone that got betrayed was deemed 'safe'.

I suppose Ghost could have sent a message to Price that they were going to break Alejandro out at the safehouse, but I'm not entirely sure there was enough time for that between everything that happened and Soap's injury. Plus Ghost and Soap were surprised to hear Price on comms. If Ghost was sure Price was going to show up, I doubt he would hide it from Rudy. And even if he knew the captain would come, it's likely he would change their plan to factor in Price's arrival. Therefore we can say that this was most likely all Price's initial plan. Not Ghost's.

Price clearly knew that to defeat Graves and Shepherd, they would have to 'go dark' so to speak. Obviously showing their faces would make the group war criminals. Naturally that meant they would have to emulate a unit that was probably well known to do missions completely anonymously without any country, rules of engagement, or signifier outside the skull mask. An international unit that carried out presumably the blackest of ops would be a perfect fit.

And to make it even more authentic, they have a member who was/is a part of that special group. Now the title of a game serves two purposes. Referencing Ghost's change from lone wolf to teammate as well as a call back to cod: ghosts.

So again, if this was Price's idea why does Ghost go along with it?

Well harking back to what I said earlier, it's assumed that Ghost has been betrayed by potentially his own ghostly teammates.

Ghost coming up to this point had no idea anyone other than Price, Soap and Los Vaqueros were trustworthy.

But then the events of "Alone" and "Prison Break" happen and Ghost sees Laswell being, "still solid as a rock". He gets rescued by Price unexpectedly. Soap shows that outsiders can be trusted by proving Ghost wrong about all his initial suppositions. Everything Ghost said to caution Soap— them not being able to rely on Price, them not trusting Laswell, Soap surviving, all of them were proven false.

And from seeing that, perhaps the man decides he wants to overturn his past experiences with betrayal to something better. Because now Ghost has hope. What else could he be proven wrong about?

This hodgepodge ghost squad might be a catharsis for Ghost in the sense that this time, he can get some revenge for being betrayed. He can have solid 'ghost team' members who have his back (unlike previously). He can let himself have a team again, with all the vulnerable trust that is implied with letting himself be a part of a team.

So Ghost taking off the mask makes more sense when we look at it as him trying to redo his own past as well. He is asking the rest of them to trust him by extending trust back (by showing his face).

But again that's just a theory. A video game theory.😎

I could be very wrong with everything here. It could just as well be as simple as Ghost after finding love trust from Soap, is so moved by the power of love trust that he felt compelled to take the next step in teamhoodness. Again, by asking the bunch to trust him by showing his identity.

The masks and the naming could just be based on Ghost and his apparently infamous legend. The guy has a bit of an ego about his skills. Maybe this plan was hatched by Ghost and Price together, and the LT wanted his ego stroked by having everyone dress up as him.

I also wouldn't put it past the man to randomly have 6 spare balaclavas on him at all times. He wears SKELETON GLOVES for god's sake. The guy is truly committed to the bit. Maybe he really is that eccentric/well prepared.

Who knows.

What we do have however, is the fact that Ghost taking off his mask was an action of trust and vulnerability. An action that wouldn't have happened without Soap being there and being his snarky lovable self.

Without Soap proving himself and working together with Ghost it's doubtful whether the LT would've opened up enough to show his face.

But enough of that. Lets talk GhostSoap interactions. It's sparse but boy do they stare at each other like no tomorrow.

It does feel a bit like grasping at straws to go, 'THEY'RE STARING AT EACH OTHER YOUR HONOUR. THAT MEANS ITS DEFFO LOVE!!! LOOK AT THEM SPARKS FLY!!!!'

But we've already established that stares are a form of wordless communication between the two. The game did it forcibly, by framing shots in each other's perspectives CONSTANTLY. This isn't the only time they've been long gazing into each other's eyes for an amount of time that would normally be uncomfortable for anyone else.

Soap is placed directly across from Ghost. The game wanted us to see Soap's expression when it pans teasingly behind Ghost's back and you're only left seeing Gaz, Soap, Alejandro and Price. This was all deliberate.

From start to finish, Soap barely takes his eyes off of Ghost. Even when Price is explaining things, Soap is very obviously looking Ghost's way. And Ghost is quite obviously staring back at Soap.

What could they be communicating between them here?

Well from Soap's expression on the third picture, it kind of looks like the sergeant is grinning. No doubt thinking back on his words where he flirts tells Ghost to show his face. Maybe Soap is stuck on the truth of Ghost's boasting. That Ghost really isn't an ugly guy at all. Quite the opposite indeed.

Really, it could be a multitude of things. One thing for certain is that we can see that they're both caught on each other from the very start of the conversation.

The funniest thing is that this isn't the first and last time we see Ghost and Soap seemingly ignore everything around them but each other. It happens in the cutscene in "Alone", here in "Ghost Team" and later in MWIII multiple times.

We can sort of excuse it here because this is the very first time Soap gets a look at Ghost's face in 3 years of working with each other. Anyone would be staring like the other would disappear in that circumstance.

Every other time though? Yeah... It suggests something very non-platonic in nature about their relationship. Let's not forget that they only really do this with each other. Not Gaz nor Price elucidates this sort of behaviour from either man. Both of them have a staring habit but it only seems to activate when the other is there.

Unfortunately, this whole cutscene was pretty much it for notable Ghost and Soap interactions in this mission. As I said earlier, "Ghost Team" doesn't have a lot of meaningful GhostSoap interactions. That can be said of "Countdown" as well, but we do get a few choice bits.

Let's look at "Countdown":

Countdown

Rodolfo closes the vehicle door as he and Alejandro turn to Soap.

Alejandro: Go... You have work to do.

Soap shakes hands with Alejandro and Rodolfo.

Soap: Keep fighting the good fight, hermano.

Alejandro: To the bitter end, my brother.

Rodolfo: Good luck, amigos.

Soap turns to go on the transport plane and taps Ghost on the shoulder to motion him to go as well.

Alejandro: Ghost...

Ghost turns around to face Alejandro.

Alejandro: No te pierdas, carnal. (Don't get lost, brother.)

Ghost: A huevo. (Of course.)

Alejandro and Rodolfo smile and laugh as Ghost boards the plane. The doors to the ramp close shut.

Now this scene is interesting when we contrast the Ghost of "Kill or Capture" to the Ghost now. The Ghost at the beginning of the game visibly hated being fistbumped. The Ghost now, doesn't seem to bat an eye at it. For a man that seems to treasure his personal space, this is a big moment. Soap is now solidly in the rarified group of (2!) members that are allowed to touch Ghost (without getting glared/intense side eyed back). The other being Price of course.

Let me reiterate that this whole process only took 7 days.

This is also compounded with Ghost actually engaging in friendly conversation with Alejandro and Rudy. If at the beginning of "Cartel Protection" where we see Ghost more or less stonewall any sort of friendly jokes/banter, here we see Ghost actually respond positively. He even raises a fist in a total bro gesture. 🥹 Antisocial Ghost who's him?

This is further reinforced when we look at the usage of Spanish by non native speakers. Notably Soap, Ghost and Graves.

Soap's Spanish usage is used to denote affection/care from Soap to Alejandro/Rudy. We know that Soap cares about Rudy and Alejandro because he makes an effort to ask personal questions about them AND tries to learn/use their language.

Graves by contrast uses it too. But none of that is meant affectionately. When we do see it, he's mocking Los Vaqueros and taunting them over the loss of their base.

And reflective of Ghost, the LT doesn't even mutter a word of Spanish at all to Rudy or Alejandro. His non usage is used to imply how he intentionally distances himself from everyone.

In "Cartel Protection", they asked Soap and Ghost whether they knew any Spanish. Throughout the game we see Soap learning and using Spanish to the delight of Alejandro and Rudy. Ghost did not join in to that cultural/language learning at any point up until this key moment here.

Perhaps Ghost was actively learning Spanish as well, paying more attention/care than anyone would've thought. Or maybe Ghost being the secretive troll he is, might have already known the language to some degree and refused to reveal it to Ale/Rudy. Which ever reason behind it, this scene was the perfect moment to show how far Ghost has come since 7 days ago.

From arrival via transport plane and instantly stonewalling Soap from making any jokes, to now leaving via the same transport plane and revealing something about himself—it's like deja vu except Ghost is the only thing different. The lightning is even the same. Ghost has been changed by the past events. His motivations now are evolving and expanding into something a little more friend shaped.

But sadly, that's the last time we see Ghost and Soap physically together since we see Ghost has been put on overwatch for the millionth time in Chicago.

We do however get some delightful exchanges at the end of the mission:

Soap: It's detonated.

Laswell: Copy that. Air Force will confirm. Thank you, Sergeant.

Soap: Yeah... Pleasure doin' business with ya, Laswell.

Laswell: Where's Hassan?

Soap: Not alone- he's got AQ guards with him. I'm gonna kill every one of 'em... and then I'm going for him. Out here.

Soap moves throughout the construction floor evading Al-Qatala guards.

Soap: Steamin' bloody fuckin'...

Ghost: Nicely done, Johnny. Now for the hard part.

Soap: That was the fucking hard part, L.T...

Ghost: Let's find out. You need to stay alive, take out the guards, and kill Hassan.

Soap: I just need a weapon.

Ghost: Make one.

Soap: Aye. Like old times, huh, L.T.?

Ghost: Seems like yesterday...

Soap: It was yesterday...

Ghost and Soap fall back into snarking at each other during critical moments. What's interesting is that because Ghost is on overwatch and we see Soap work with Price and Gaz, we now have a chance to compare [Ghost and Soap], [Price and Soap] and [Laswell and Soap].

There's an odd thought rattling around that Soap could just be a very flirty person by nature. He likes to buck authority. Maybe Soap snarks back to all his superiors.

But we find that might not be true at all, because Soap doesn't snark at Price ever. Not here in mwii(22), not in "Flashpoint" in 2019 and not at any time in mwiii(23).

Gaz actually jokes more with Price than Soap ever does with the captain. And that's wild because according to the official bio, Price has known Soap since the sergeant was 18! Soap and Price's relationship go wayyy back. To our knowledge it's the longest official relationship we know between any of the characters. Maybe Soap's relationship to Price is more respectful/devoid of any back talk?

Regardless, Soap doesn't pull any of that towards Price. He actually snarks more to Laswell and their relationship started around 2019/20 when the taskforce was formed.

We see this here with Soap in an echo of what was to come in mwiii(23):

Laswell: Copy that. Air Force will confirm. Thank you, Sergeant.

Soap: Yeah... Pleasure doin' business with ya, Laswell.

Laswell: Where's Hassan?

Laswell thanks Soap. To which Soap snarks back happily. Laswell shuts down any jokes and moves the convo back to more pressing matters.

Contrast this convo with Ghost congratulating Soap and then starting the snark up first cause he can't help himself:

Ghost: Nicely done, Johnny. Now for the hard part.

Soap: That was the fucking hard part, L.T...

I honestly think the snark came out of Ghost from all the sheer worry the LT had. Remember that Ghost jokes to distract himself and Soap. This is another extension of that.

When we look at this as a whole, we can read it as further framing of Ghost and Soap's relationship as something unique, something special to only them. Out of all the superiors Soap has ever been directly under, it's only Ghost that seems to snark back. They egg each other on and we see this with each successive line in the dialogue bit:

Soap: I just need a weapon.

Ghost: Make one.

Soap: Aye. Like old times, huh, L.T.?

Ghost: Seems like yesterday...

Soap: It was yesterday...

Soap doesn't really joke back to Price (though we don't see them interact outside of extremely critical time sensitive missions so it's a little debatable). Laswell sort of tolerates it, but forcibly moves the subject.

It's Ghost who previously ignored Soap, that entertains and even encourages him to snark.

Soap isn't like this with Alejandro, Rudy or Gaz. We see (1) instance of Soap being pouty about Gaz being right (for once) in MWIII and that's all we really see of Gaz and Soap's relationship to be frank.

We also don't see Soap snarking at Alejandro or Rudy. The one time we saw Soap quip back at anyone, it was at Graves specifically during the tank scene. And that snark was meant murderously of course.

On the other hand, It feels like Ghost and Soap could go on forever trading banter at each other for hours.

And they somewhat do when the mission suddenly becomes a crafting survival game at the end. It becomes a little segment similar to "Alone" where you have Ghost encouraging Soap to murder better via helpful tips about how to do so.

There's a call and response thing going on with the two of them. Every time Soap says something, there's an automatic response from Ghost. And we see this especially so, at the very end of the game:

Soap: Ghost...

Ghost: Soap...

Soap: Watch the window...

The window blows apart and Hassan walks up to Soap.

Hassan: We are not attacking...

Hassan hauls Soap up to his feet and brings him to his face.

Hassan: We are invading...

The scene shifts to Ghost on the rooftop of his building as he deploys his MCPR-300 sniper rifle and aims at the floor where Soap and Hassan are located. He sees Hassan hauling Soap over to the window preparing to drop him to his death. At this point, the player must shoot Hassan before Hassan can push Soap out of the building.

Ghost fires a shot that hits Hassan in the head. Hassan collapses to the ground, dead. Soap drops to his knees and looks at Hassan before looking back to Ghost's position.

Soap: Perfect shot, L.T.

Ghost: You called it, Sergeant. All stations- Hassan's down. Enemy KIA.

Like "Alone", which literally was just yesterday for them, all Soap and Ghost have to say is their names and one of them will respond similarly. It's like they're a perfect pair meant to always be framed together. We are introduced to these characters together and we see the depth of who they are as characters in contrast to one another. (I'm not counting warzone because Ghost/Soap being there was equivalent to a fun Easter egg tbh)

And finally we get to the circular ending of mwii(22). It ends like how it starts. The game itself starts in Ghost's perspective with a missile strike to kill general Ghorbrani. We are in Ghost's perspective looking through a scope to confirm the target.

Here at the end, we are in Ghost's perspective after looking down another scope to kill Hassan.

Except this time Ghost isn't solo.

SoapAndGhost worked together for everything to end happily. It's in the text explicitly. Soap praises Ghost on his perfect shot. Ghost is like, noo, you called it. It's a regular ole praise hot potato here.

From beginning Ghost (who works alone) to end Ghost (who works with Soap): the heart and soul of this game is centred on these two. The big emotional breakthrough is Ghost's evolution from lone wolf to devoted teammate.

Whatever people might think about the nature of their relationship, it's unmistakable how important these two are to each other in-universe, but also just when we look at how the game was written. These two are the crux of MWII.

If MW19 was emotionally centred on Farah's backstory and her growth as a character in which we see her literally grow from child to freedom fighter, MWII was emotionally centred on Ghost learning how to trust (outsiders) and be a part of a team again.

It's really no wonder people like to ship Ghost and Soap when the game is focused on their particular relationship. From the framing to the dialogue, this was all deliberate. The shots had to be created/animated, the dialogue had to be written (no ad lib from what it sounds). There was a reason to have all these borderline non-platonic cutscenes/lines. And again I'll thank everyone there who had a hand in those choices.

They took what could have been a very dudebro game into something that appealed to a larger (feminine) audience by making choices that went against the grain of what a typical fps game does. Especially one so painfully mainstream.

Thanks game devs for creating such compelling characters/relationships. You really did us a solid by making it.

Now the next thing to look at is this: How has Ghost and Soap's relationship changed between mwii(22) to mwiii(23)?

That's a tough question. There are differences though those are best talked about in comparison to how we see Ghost and Soap in 2019, 2022 and then to 2023. There's sadly nothing truly explicit and all we have to look at is context, stares and little touches. Which still is enough to sink our teeth into in my humble shipper opinion.

But if anything, given how little time mwiii(23) had to bake, I'm glad that there was an effort to at least sub textually in the dialogue try to communicate Ghost and Soap's relationship.

We could have had zero relationship growth in mwiii(23) guys. I'll forever be glad we got the tidbits we do have over literally nothing.

Does this mean I think mwiii(23) was a good game that did Ghost and Soap's relationship justice?

No.

But I actually don't think it was completely the worst. And looking back at certain dialogue choices after going through mwii(22), there was some reasoning behind it. Which somewhat makes the ending better, though I'm still bitter about the whole nonsensical plot.

Anyway. Thanks for reading my stupidly long post, anyone who's still tuned into the whole thing, you have my endless gratitude. 💕💕💕🥺

And thanks to all the gifers out there to make my life easier for these posts. You guys are the real troopers. 🫡

Part 3 will prob take a good time that might not happen anytime soon because I keep on getting side tracked with writing/plot bunnies. Sorry guys 😔

Also sidenote, I have my own thoughts on why the game chose to not have Ghost join in the killing of Graves and instead have Soap and Rudy do it. My ghost squad theory is admittedly weaker when we see the game deliberately choose them (not Ghost) to get revenge. But honestly, it was always going to be the player character insert (Soap) and one of Los Vaqueros. Not Soap and Ghost. After all, it's Los Vaqueros that had their base taken over. It makes narrative sense for one of them to help end it as well.

#ghostsoap #soapghost #john soap mactavish #simon ghost riley #ghost x soap #soap x ghost #cod mwii #call of duty modern warfare #simon riley #soap mactavish #ghost cod #ghost squad #meta

57 notes · View notes

upagainstthesunset · 6 months

Text

Calling all escape artists, reporters, free spirits and celestials! It's time for...

[ID: "New Gods November" event title card. The text uses the font from the original New Gods comic, and is white against a black rectangle with white and gray dots. Behind the black rectangle is old four color comic art of flowing lines and dots. /END ID]

New Gods November

Introduction

In the early 1970's, comics legend Jack Kirby came back to DC with his most ambitious project to date. It was a grand story about a new generation of gods and their battle against a terrible evil, spanning across four separate titles: Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen, Mister Miracle, Forever People and New Gods. This tetralogy would quickly become known as The Fourth World, and many of its key players known as the New Gods.

Now, over 50 years later, these stories and characters still resonate deeply with fans of all kinds. So to celebrate the Fourth World saga and all its space opera glory, we bring you New Gods November!

Details

This fan event runs from November 1st - November 28th, 2023. See below for the full schedule.

One of our goals is to make it comfortable to do as many or as few prompts as you please. The event is split into weeks, where each week has a bucket of five prompts to choose from. Participate by picking one per week, or get ambitious and pick several and do them daily! We only ask that when you post, you stick to the current or previous weeks and not jump ahead to a future week.

Another goal is to give people the freedom to create what they want. We've left the prompts fairly open to interpretation, and each week has enough variety to give a wide selection of characters to choose from. Just don't forget to mention somewhere in your post which prompt you picked!

Contributions of all kinds are welcome. From art and fics, to meta analyses and character playlists and beyond, anything is fair game since the format is entirely up to you! Just make sure to use the tag #newgodsnovember so others can find your creations. And if you post on AO3, you can add your work to the New Gods November collection.

And of course Fourth World must be the main focus of your work, but other DC characters are certainly allowed.

Last, I'd like to plug our New Gods discord. If you'd like an invite please message!

Ready for the full prompt list? Click "Keep Reading" to see it all!

Schedule and Prompt List

[ID: List of four weeks with dates, where each week has four prompts and a comic title's logo under it. The dates and prompts are described below. /END ID]

Week 1 - November 1 to November 7

Stranger in a Strange Land¹

Destiny

Celestials on Earth²

Characters who never met³

Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen*

Week 2 - November 8 to November 14

The Ties That Bind⁴

Trust

Character Foils⁵

Create A Character Backstory⁶

Mister Miracle*

Week 3 - November 15 to November 21

Then-- There Was New Light!⁷

Freedom

Late/Post Kirby Characters⁸

OC or Character Redesign

Forever People*

Week 4 - November 22 - November 28

The Hand or the Knife⁹

Scars

New Genesis vs Apokolips

Alternate Realities¹⁰

New Gods*

Footnotes

* = Characters, themes, settings or anything else from the pages of the comic title mentioned.

This prompt could include being somewhere foreign, not fitting in, or trying to find where you belong.

"Celestials" refers to the characters from New Genesis and Apokolips.

Create something for characters that haven't yet interacted in a published comic.

This prompt could include family and friends, things that keep people together, or blood relations for better or worse.

A foil is a character that contrasts with another character.

Show something that could in theory fit into a character's past.

This prompt could include progress, optimism, or looking to the future.

This means a Fourth World character that was created after Kirby's original run in the early 1970's.

This prompt could include nature vs nurture, the ability to choose, or the ability to change.

This means universes and timelines that aren't necessarily canon, but have been published by DC.

Special Thanks

I want to give a very huge shout out to two people who made this event possible...

@ant-ifascottlang not only created our awesome graphics, but was so great to brainstorm and discuss ideas with and really pick their brain about all aspects of this thing. The prompts, the logistics, everything.

@shadethechangingman generously and graciously shared his prompt list, which we used to inspire this event. What we ended up with is different, to be sure, but I'm not kidding when I say that things would not even be half as good without that contribution and all the work that went into it.

And you know what else? I want to thank all the other New Gods fans I've interacted with here on tumblr over the past year. There aren't a lot of us, but what we lack in numbers we definitely make up for in passion. Thank you for being so welcoming, and thank you for making this a fun place to be.

#newgodsnovember #new gods #fourth world #jack kirby #orion #lightray #scott free #mister miracle #big barda #jimmy olsen #newsboy legioin #forever people #highfather #darkseid #dc comics

56 notes · View notes

anonymocha · 8 days

Note

Medbleu headcanon medbleu because you made me like this one more (Ex Balloon Party Baby Blue believer)

Baby Blue is KLS representation (I think) how cool. It's a very rare condition where people get so tired all of the time and will be asleep from weeks to months basically. Her way with living and coping with her illness has made Medicine Pocket a lot less morbid about their own condition and enjoy life more.

Baby Blue is more calm while Medicine Pocket is more limbic. Even though Baby Blue struggles between reality and her unending dreams, she has sleep-talked Medicine Pocket out of doing all kinds of awful things to themselves by slowly repeating back their answer to 'what are you doing'. Medicine Pocket wants to be someone she can depend on; they are more careful and steady when thinking of Baby Blue

Medicine Pocket, in turn, keeps Baby Blue safe when she is unaware of her surroundings. It was really crude at first but after they figured out it was impossible to change her condition they became more protective rather than bothered by the constant dreaming.

Baby Blue has a hundred nicknames/petnames for them. Medicine Pocket isn't confident with coming up with these names but she gets so happy whenever they come up with a new one. Blue's favorite name for them is 'Puppy'.

very wholesome..... Baby Blue requires Medicine Pocket to sleep with her for at least 6 hours a day. She can be little a clingy when Medicine Pocket comes home.

also also Blue mistook Medicine Pocket for a wonderlandshark at first and after she presumed them as such they had to step out of the room to try not to cry and explode thats True love .

📣Good Night USA

This is so important to me you have no idea ooouuuhhh 😭😭😭😭😭 I never thought of a proper proper wholesome dynamic between them to this extent and now I am enlightened…

This is a LONG post you have been warned. The MedBlue brainrot is SUPER REAL.

OK I CAN IMAGINE BABY BLUE CALLING THEM PUPPY IN THE SWEETEST SOFTEST SLEEPY VOICE EVER FULL OF GENTLE LOVE AND ADORATION… IM GONNA CRYYYYY AND MELT AND EXPLODE… Mental support Baby Blue is real (both in a meta and metaphorical sense).

I also like how she’s, in her own way, helping to keep the researcher in check. Someone has to keep her safe, therefore they also should keep themself safe so that they can be there for her. Yes, they love their job and the delightful dangers it brings with it. But they also have a person dear to them waiting for them. Also, in my headcanon, Medicine Pocket shelters a lot of supposed-to-be-experiment dogs at Laplace so they got to get it together for their pups, too (I imagine Baby Blue napping together with their puppies at the Laplace fields occasionally… Puppy tea party… Somft…). They want to take care of her and their pups, be dependable, and protect them. They used to think that this protection comes at the cost of their own wellbeing but NUH UH. Baby Blue's presence and words remind them that there are dangerous thresholds that they don't need to cross, no matter how 'logical' it seems.

She wants them to sleep with her an adequate amount of hours, therefore they cannot fuck up their sleep schedule by pulling impulsive all-nighters (I’m guilty of this too whoops). These two would get! Cozy! And Baby Blue would softly sleeptalk nonsensical but calming tales from her wonderland to help them sleep. I assume bedtime stories aren’t a very common thing in their childhood, especially when they got taken away with the beagles. So Baby Blue's whimsical, imaginative antics would be like taking back tiny but meaningful pieces of their lost childhood, stolen by a life of cold, clinical, and dangerous research. After they started sleeping with Baby Blue, her warmth and comforting stories allowed the researcher to get not only much-needed sleep, but also sating a yearning. A yearning for coziness and unconditional peace they likely brushed aside for a long, long time through the span of their childhood to teenhood.

On Baby Blue, a lot of people likely gave up on her. Doctor after doctor after doctor shook their heads and raised their hands after examining her condition. Teachers, friends, and even strangers are bewildered by her, calling her crazy, and treating her as more of a 'case study' or 'phenomenon' than an actual person. Those who did stick around her for a while couldn't stand her constant dreamings and tendencies to isolate, they either took it to heart or found themselves drifting away from her. It took her a while but she convinced herself that she was used to it, wonderland and its dwellers were her true friends after all. But at the same time, I feel like she would still realize that she's living in two worlds, and recognizes her loneliness in one of them. She tried to not think about it for a while but it likely bit at her some nights. Medicine Pocket may be the only doctor insistent enough to stick with her for longer than many others before them thanks to their stubbornness and curiosity. That's enough to get her attached to them, to say the least.

I WOULD LOVE TO SAY MORE THINGS ABOUT THESE TWO (such as her wonderland and their research on it, Baby Blue getting curious on Medpoc's research which led to them infodumping, more Baby Blue interactions with Medpoc's pups, Medpoc protecting Baby Blue from weirdo doctors at Laplace, etc etc) BUT I MAY NEED TO SLEEP GOODNIGHT INDONESIA 🔊THANK YOU ANON FOR THE ASK FEEL FREE TO SEND ME MORE OMG THE MEDBLUE BRAINROT IS REAL!!! I want to write a fic abt these two SO BAD. I want them to BE HAPPY!!!

#medblue #babypocket #Baby Blue #Medicine Pocket #mochasks #thank you anon #oh i actually also like the dynamic between Balloon Party and Baby Blue i thought of them before….#ouuhhh Baby Blue you are the character ever #reverse 1999 #the medblue fic im writing rn is TOXIC i boutta do a u-turn

22 notes · View notes

woundlingus · 5 days

Text

Colour Grading, Insincerity, and Loki is right and Gabriel is wrong; a Lokiel Meta

It’s the big gun, it’s the mother lode of me ripping apart Unfinished Business frame by frame to feed my shipping and laying out all my thoughts on the matter clearly as can be so maybe I can sway some people sitting on the fence or at least give some context to those who see my posts and go “wtf” because they’re not viewing this through the lens of my insanity. Want to know why these guys haunt me? Here;

Credit where credit is due, the one thing I’ve always really liked about supernatural is how they use colour grading to tell the story, and it’s not really all that secretive that the Gabriel episodes look aesthetically like some of the best episodes because they colour them very specifically to set the tone for them;

Fun

Nonsensical

Insincere

The three big tells that something trickster is afoot in the episode, (and I apologise for the scuffed quality on some of these, I’m skating the tumblr upload rules).

(Tall Tales 2x15)

(Mystery spot 3x11)

(Changing Channels 5x08)

It tells us that whatever is currently happening typically feels very real to those experiencing it, but is actually not at all. This is make believe. It’s a figment of Gabriel’s imagination that he’s whipped up at his own convenience to tell the story he wishes to impart upon the narrative. While this is obvious in the earlier season when they’re still shooting on film and using the dark overlays to create a spooky ambiance, it still follows through to the end for Gabriel until he puts down the trickster label and picks back up the archangel one and officially joins the Winchesters bringing him into the same dark coloured world that we’re used to viewing. There’s a sadness in it, that Gabriel went from all these bright colours to essentially having his spirit snuffed out by Asmodeus, but it gives us a very clear point to reference when things are real and when they’re make believe.

Obviously Gabriel is a liar, we’ve all known that to be true since his very first appearance- but there’s one incident that I talk about often that bothers me deeply but I’ve never really explained why.

The hotel with the rest of the trickster gang.

Gabriel tells this story three times in a pretty short time span- short enough for Dean to remember and call him out on it in the moment, and every time he tells it the story is altered ever so slightly.

I was alone with porn stars in Monte Carlo

I was alone with Loki and Co in Monte Carlo

I was with porn stars AND Loki n Co in Monte Carlo

He’s always been a very unreliable narrator, but this one was particularly on the nose and when it comes to “continuity errors” Gabriel is always aware of them, he does it on purpose because he wants to get caught. We should ask the question, why did it take you three attempts for us to hear this?

He tells his final iteration of the story in grand bright colours, telling feats of his sexual exploits and how good he is at cards, “and then everyone clapped and cheered for me” and then Loki Judas betrays him because Gabriel is so cool and his brothers are so tough and Loki was scared witless and hoping to avoid bloodshed blah blah blah…

Here’s what the real world looks like in comparison to Gabriel’s little fantasy he’s got running here-

This matches the rest of supernatural, this is a realistic portrayal of events through the eyes of Sam and Dean. This is the bitter reality Gabriel is avoiding with his fantastical little displays; he’s a broken little man who is hurt, injured, and scared.

So, Loki tells another variation of this story, yes? Gabriel was the betrayer here, not Loki. Gabriel ran out recklessly and while passing world saving information to the Winchesters, both saving the world AND the vast majority of Loki’s family, he cannot convince Odin to leave and he dies in battle (and like, he would’ve gone to Valhalla can we just unclench a little?). That is why Loki chooses to damn Gabriel to Hell with a very reckless move to attempt to take down an archangel, sell him to a demon, and then cross his fingers and pray his bestie- the 6th most powerful thing in all of creation ever- doesn’t break free from this pitiful demon eventually and come looking for him. But the environment tells another story, look;

It’s the return of the high vibrancy filter, because this room isn’t real, Loki isn’t real, and neither is the story he’s telling. What are the tricksters, if not liars and showboats?

There’s a huge lack in vulnerability which is what they’re both trying to paint over in these scenes to make themselves cool, to make themselves the victim, to make themselves untouchable. Loki tells a half cocked story about the archangel bastard who took his father, completely detached from any real sort of attachment to Gabriel or Odin- even says himself that he hates Odin! And in a story where we know the ending is Gabriel at the hands of Asmodeus he spends ninety nine percent of the story talking about pornstars. They cannot be vulnerable with these outsiders watching them, they also don’t seem to want to admit to themselves what the crux of the issue is here.

They both want to be the ultimate victim of the situation, they’re painting these half done stories trying to convince an audience (Sam and Dean) that doesn’t care that they are right and the other is wrong—

Until they meet each other;

You can lie to everyone, but you can’t lie to yourself.

We’re back, grounded in reality in this moment when they come face to face with each other, the lighting darkens and becomes gritty once more meaning all facades are down and what’s transpiring here between them is without tricks, and there’s an honor in that when it is a battle between two very clever tricksters who could make this endlessly complicated if they wanted to. When they fight, Gabriel is next to silent (listening, or trauma response? You can decide) and Loki does all his talking for Gabriel and Gabriel alone. They have no one to impress here, they sent the Winchesters on a fools errand to have this moment alone creating a tense intimacy where Loki shreds Gabriel’s facades and calls him out for what he truly is and lays out his deep rooted fears and secrets bare, letting us as the outside party they’re unaware of know that what the two of them were here wasn’t some ordinary friendship or half cocked deal out of desperation, but a real and honest bond between two beings terrified, alone, and looking for safety and someone to confide in. They’re each others secret keepers. Long time confidants. Their most trusted. The reason both of them ran to begin with, in a plan that would involve them wrapping themselves so tightly around the other they’d become one in all ways but physical, and promise to keep each other and that secret until death do them part.

It is bloody, and messy, and Loki has no real way of winning this fight because he cannot hurt Gabriel in any way that matters because he’s an archangel and whether he takes damage or not he will live because of the way he was made, only one of them is killable here and only one of them has any intention of killing the other and it’s not Loki. It’s never been Loki. Ever faithful Loki.

They made a vow, and maybe it was childish and unrealistic but that’s what the two of them are by nature are they not? Fickle, childish, and endlessly devoted. To their families, to their lovers, to their fathers, to each other.

Loki should run at this point, if he has any intention of wanting to live. He’s not stupid, he knows Gabriel better than anyone else in the world and Gabriel acknowledges this by how hurt he is emotionally by the way Loki talks about him and the secrets they’ve passed over the thousands of years they’ve known one another. He’s smart enough to know sentiment won’t save him here, it didn’t save his sons, Sleipnir tried that already and it failed spectacularly. Gabriel is here to kill him, and when you take into consideration the wild power imbalance here in this battle what Loki is doing is essentially laying his head down on the chopping block for Gabriel. He’s a smart creature to survive this long, he could be gone if he really wanted to be just like the many times we watched Gabriel disappear.

He doesn’t.

To me, the crux of their story here is abandonment. You left me. Gabriel made the choice to break his vows, and chase after a family he left behind and even though YES it was for a noble reason that is still nothing when it was a personal stab in the back to Loki who also left his family behind to run away with Gabriel and didn’t go for Odin even though the call was put out to Loki to join the gods for the evening.

Loki didn’t go for his family, but Gabriel did.

Loki didn’t go to save his father in an event they were both invited to, Loki had the opportunity to go and save Odin and he chose his bond to Gabriel over saving him. Gabriel discarded his vow and went anyway, and Odin died.

Gabriel betrays Loki, and it’s not that Odin died, it’s that Loki was willing to sacrifice the opportunity to save him and Gabriel couldn’t say the same for his own family. Odin died for nothing, when Loki could’ve been there the whole time to come get him, and he was robbed of that opportunity while Gabriel went behind his back to do exactly that for his family.

Loki was faithful to his own detriment, and Gabriel was not.

Gabriel is punished fairly in Loki’s eyes because this isn’t just about some deadbeat dad (who chained Loki in a cave to torture him). This is a slight of a much more intimate nature. This was a betrayal of the worst kind.

Gabriel is unfaithful.

Everyone knows that Asmodeus is the demon Prince of lust, but in a little more detail that’s not entirely what makes him up. The cardinal sins are the worst because they are what you inflict upon others, an upon your very soul. Lust is something inherent to the condition of just being alive, but the sin is in the act of hurting others and yourself, so the vast majority of what Asmodeus is imagined ruling over is the adulterer, he is most often the one depicted punishing the unfaithful. Loki wasn’t just looking for a way to hurt Gabriel for the sake of inflicting pain, the trickster is never like that. The trickster doesn’t strike just to maim. Loki is sending a very explicit message to Gabriel by giving him to Asmodeus of all people;

“You were unfaithful.”

— Okay, maybe it’s wrong to say that Loki had every right to do what he did because it was definitely still A LOT to do to someone, but it’s far more understandable when the emotional weight of Gabriel’s crime is made clearer. You probably shouldn’t torture anyone ever for any reason— I’m avidly anti-torture— but dick move Gabriel…

And look, yeah they both sleep around and invite porn stars and hookers to the hotel rooms and what not and I certainly will not hang my ‘Gabriel is a bad person here’ hat on the human morality of monogamy because I think it’s shallow and a disservice to the kind of bond the two of them actually have, but there’s an extra added pain in it that Gabriel also turns up for his ex girlfriend in this situation who is willing to betray him for basically a can of pop but not for Loki who will let Odin die to protect Gabriel.

Gabriel comes back, and he offers no apologies because he isn’t capable of learning his lesson, he is selfish by nature (Also the inherent message of the nature of Hell and torture being one that is wholly unnecessary and cruel, punishment never breeds change internal or societal, you can’t change and reform under immense duress it just further traumatises and keeps you locked in the cycle, the system of Hell shouldn’t exist period). Instead, Gabriel comes to kill Loki’s boys so he can watch them struggle and die first before Gabriel delivers the final blow to the man himself. Would you want to live after all of that either, entirely alone without your family or the one who loved and understood you the most- or so you thought?

And could Gabriel live with it either, knowing the punishment didn’t fit the crime but that Loki had a point (see script) and he wasn’t innocent either and it’s cost him everything because now he gets to look at what it was he saved and it’s a brother who seeks him out in the dark just to torment him about his abuse?

And the story ends circular here, devastating me personally even further by twisting the knife.

Gabriel ran away because his family was so horribly broken, and Loki took off with him to escape his torture. Together they made the plan to become one and Gabriel could use Loki’s face and name to hide among the pagans, and his archangel might to take all the hits being thrown Loki’s way and keep him hidden, because no one’s going to fuck with the god who has the freaky new upgrade and just escaped the slammer. Slowly over time what was Gabriel and what was Loki had melded into two very similar personalities, a little different based on their life experiences, but still so the same they were indistinguishable to everyone but each other.

The core difference between them is their life experiences.

Until Gabriel comes back, tail between his knees and asks Loki to please take him back and let him resume playing the ‘Loki’ character, and Loki says sure, and he binds him and and subjects him to torture at the hands of Gabriel’s very own snake in the cave. Mouth stitched shut. “Be me, then,” He says. “Be me in my entirety.”

And Gabriel comes back after this, bitter and angry and he picks up a weapon and he starts knocking Loki’s family down piece by piece, stalking them through the night no matter how far they run, to make sure Loki’s family is as broken as his own before he delivers the final blow to end his life.

Loki’s family as shattered as Gabriel’s, Gabriel as shattered as Loki himself. Fully one in death.

#spn #supernatural #gabriel spn #Loki spn #supernatural s13 #supernatural meta #lokiel #long post #sona’s lore

19 notes · View notes