#a lot of people know the character is different and still love/prefer the ragnarok loki

[worstloki]

Okay, this is gettin’ real screwed up here.

I watch a lot of TV. Probably too much. And I’ve seen characters beaten to their knees before, sometimes even with collars. And yeah, there’s usually someone standing over them, and it’s been a woman sometimes. The kind of scene we got in episode 5 of Loki is not new ground.

But here’s the thing. In EVERY OTHER SCENE I can remember like this, the person kneeling is the hero. They’ve been brought down, fully humbled before the sneering villain, and in a few minutes something will happen to get them back on their feet again. It’s usually a tense moment, a “what if they break?” that makes you want the hero to win. You aren’t rooting for, or even liking in some cases, the person standing. You’re cheering for the person on their knees.

This doesn’t seem to be the case with the Loki show. Yes, the viewers may be rooting for Loki, but there’s no hatred for Sif there. She’s not proved herself to be a cold, heartless villain, ruthlessly pounding the hero until all he can do is kneel at her feet.

Except…she did kind of do that. But it isn’t treated as something bad. It’s treated more as something Loki deserved, in my opinion. The show wants us to feel like he deserved to get repeatedly beaten up and told horrible things, just for cutting off a lock of Sif’s hair. I’ll grant, it’s peanuts compared to what happened to him in the mythology. But it’s still bad. Especially since they had him acknowledge it, repeat her cruel words back. They’re playing it off as if Loki is still the villain by himself, and is only good because of other people- Mobius, mostly, but Sif is part of that.

That’s not the way Loki’s character is. In the comics particularly, his biggest arcs are always about reinventing the labels given to him, changing “villain” into something good, something he can use, and doing it by himself. Yes, there’s outside influence, but ultimately Loki is the one who decided to change.

The show is not letting him do that. The show is portraying him as a stubborn jackass who refuses to change until other people show him the light- either with psychological torture presented as therapy, or with beating him up a bunch of times until he gives in. The show and its characters are forcing Loki to become good- they aren’t showing him doing it by himself. He is not becoming one of the good guys, he’s being essentially enslaved by them, and the show is passing it off as somehow all that good influence finally rubbed off on Loki’s cold, villainous heart. That’s why him betraying Mobius was shown as so bad even though Loki barely knew him and had been psychologically tortured by him- Mobius is written as a character who can choose to be good, and Loki is written as a character who must be forced to be good.

And something about an entire show revolving around an independent character being treated as a villain, literally enslaved by the “good guys” (back when the show still wanted us to think the TVA weren’t shady as all hell), beaten to his knees with a collar around his neck until he accepts that he deserves to be alone because he isn’t “good” like everybody else…that doesn’t go down right for me.

The TVA being presented in not just a neutral but often reliable light is something I thought would change once Loki literally called out their propaganda and Sylvie called them fascists, but, for some reason the authoritarian genocidalists are not being presented as a bad thing and it irks me too.

It's especially weird because of the way what Loki claims to have wanted by making choices for people and what Mobius claims the TVA do ARE THE EXACT SAME THINGS, except Loki, until the show, hadn't done that of his own volition and was being tortured during the invasion and is treated terribly for something he didn't even succeed in doing, while the TVA successfully erase events on a mass scale but are presented as having a higher (or at best, - equal) moral ground.

The exact same thing was done in Ragnarok where Loki's "turning point" from a tricksy villainous scoundrel happened because Thor left him frying on the ground and gave him a pep talk filled with lies and general slander about how he could be better - and people see that as good because Thor is framed as a hero, and it's because instead of accepting Loki is a complex character they take what the narrative tells at face value and that is that Loki fights the protagonist(s) so he's bad.

I personally don't like the narrative pushing a character that is canonically an abuse victim and attempted suicide and was tortured right after as someone who needs fixing because he's lusting for power and needs it to gain a sense of control during a retcon which is occurring for the sake of calling him a complete bad guy who needs to change (probably because no actual original character development could be thought of?) after he was just confirmed as queer and colloquially (i assume) called a narcissist because of twisted love.

That he deserves to be alone was presented neutrally as a joke even as he was repeatedly getting beaten to the ground, and then both people he could call friends were removed from his immediate vicinity right after.

Loki isn't being presented as a character that has done a huge mix of good and bad in the movies, he's being presented as an oft incompetent idiot that deserves what he gets because he shouldn't have run away from captors, or he cut Sif's hair, or he killed his mother, or he dared to think he had any importance or could do something good, because the truth is he's an evil lying scourge.

"But maybe," Mobius says, "Maybe he wants to mix it up. Sometimes you get tired of playing the same part. Is that possible? He can change?" And everyone's already forgotten that moments before the mission Mobius said to Loki's face that the TVA has pruned a lot of Loki variants because he's so nice! look! he has hope in him when no one else does! It's also easy to forget the "and hey, if it doesn't work, I'll delete him myself," right after because the guy was smiling through it and the scene is followed by Loki really badly trying to explain the logic of being a trickster who everyone knows is a trickster.

A lot of people payed more attention in Ragnarok than to the other Thor movies so it's not a new retcon and people seem fine with the extremely strange take that 'loki is bad but he can do good sometimes,' because the character is more animated and acts foolish and that's generally more fun for comedy, which is fair for people to prefer imo, people find different things entertaining.

But I do solidly hope the show doesn't go that way though and takes a side with Loki on the narrative stance eventually because I've seen a lot of people who just. miss that the TVA's concept is bad. And those who think they're "reforming" Loki. As if the guy needs anything but a break at this point lmao he only got away from Thanos like 2 days ago please just let him rest for a bit he's a fail villain and it's cringe to have your supposed 1st open queer character get beaten to a pulp by Sif and then put wack sexualizing shots for it too :/

it's like the show itself is trying to sell the angle of "Loki is a villain" and I'm a clown who is still wanting that to be intentional because if it is? It could be amazing and playing with how different parties are framed would be s p e c t a cu l ar and could encourage people to reassess the hero coding in other movies including ones Loki was previously in - but we're reaching the last two episodes and I don't feel like that'll happen.

I feel like even if Loki does reach the end of the show as a transformed person it'll be done leaving the audience with "perhaps you're not so bad after all, Loki," and then also give credit to Mobius or Sylvie or whoever else was involved, simply because as even of yet Loki hasn't taken on a lead role in the show. I'd argue he hasn't really contributed anything worthwhile to plot either. As you've said, he's being shown as someone who needs to change but isn't really motivated to. Aw man they better not make romantic love the reason he wants to change.

#no because they're framing things that are humiliating or demeaning as *casual* #I don't even care if they wanted fanservice in the show did it have to be THAT type??? #of course it did they don't take the character seriously or consider what they're doing with him despite his legitimate grievances #in a show where Loki's had literally no influence on the main plot but delaying it for the entirety of the Lamentis episode #if i was worse this is where i'd theorize about how Loki isn't a typical 'strong' hero and threatens the fragile masculine ideals of some #like........marvel the F*CK kind of message is this meant to send after Thanos throwing Gamora off a cliff was 'love' and Odin was 'strong' #they've made Loki be embarrassingly bad in fights too and what's up with that????? #''no look he's powerful see he just reversed time on an entire building on his own!!! now watch 2 guards hold him back <3'' #bro 2 guards aren't enough if loki wants to escape what movies were you watching bro #you want me to believe this is the guy that went toe to toe with thor and tie-lost because he had tears blurring his vision???? #nice try mcu im onto you your writing sucks #the Loki show #loki spoilers #loki show spoilers #im still reeling from Sylvie's backstory of BITING AND RUNNING and that she left the door to the TVA open for so long accidentally?????? #im enjoying the show but i'm not going to say it's a good show or even that I see Loki as in-character #he CAN CANONICALLY TELEPORT WHY THE FR*CK WERE THEY SITTING AND WATCHING LAMENTIS BLOW UP #he BROKE the tempad - their ONLY WAY OFF THE PLANET - which was stored in a POCKET DIMENSION - by falling TOO HARD ????? #EXCUSE ME???? #put some effort into the story you're trying to sell marvel #the logic with the timelines???? makes NO SENSE?????? #the TVA either has no clue what they're doing or the multiverse literally already exists and the sacred timeline continues to be lies #i want to strange Marvel #the entire thing is so entertaining though so im definitely enjoying #ThisPostIsLongerThanMyLifeSpan #TPILTMLS

[veliseraptor]

☕ the loki series is... kinda trash and the characterization is very off :/

the loki series which I still have not watched the finale of for reasons that have nothing to do with my enjoyment or lack thereof but initially due to monetizing my hobbies and now I just have a weird block on it? that one?

but hey I feel like I've got enough of an informed opinion to respond to this at least somewhat, though, like, grain of salt I guess knowing only vague spoilers that I've gathered about the finale over the months since it has aired.

I went a little back and forth on answering this one at all, because if there is something that definitely did not help my drifting away from mcu fandom (though there are a lot of reasons), it would be seeing the fringes of the loki series discourse and going "oh no, don't want that." so dipping my toes in it feels...risky! but hopefully things have calmed down a little and I'm not going to get my head bitten off by anyone.

particularly because my answer is I think going to sound a little milquetoast. I definitely disagree with the strength of language in this ask (I don't think it was trash). I wouldn't say I loved it; I think it ranks probably third in my favorite of the mcu tv series (and well about falcon and winter soldier which I actively disliked). but I was always going to have quibbles about the series - spending eight-ish years in fandom writing hundreds of thousands of words about a character you get a pretty firm idea of what you want and what you feel about them - but I knew that going in, and, frankly, have always known that about the mcu. it never gave me what I wanted! what I got, generally speaking, was enough of what I wanted to work with it.

so I think that's a way in which I maybe approached this a little differently than some people - namely, going "yeah so this isn't going to be the Loki series I would've made probably but hey I can probably get some good stuff out of it."

but this isn't really getting at the heart of your ask, which I feel like is mainly about characterization - of Loki, I assume, since he was the established character in the show. and in answer to that I guess I have two things that I keep in mind that make me...more forgiving, perhaps, than others are inclined to be. those are:

1. Consistency of characterization has never been something the MCU is great at, and particularly with Loki. Because of story needs and director styles and many other factors, in general MCU characters tend to wobble from movie to movie - within certain confines, but wobble nonetheless. This is actually very familiar from comics, where a character can have wildly different characterization depending on what version you're reading and people sort of end up with choose-your-own-adventure characterization depending on what their preferences are.

When it comes to Loki, Loki from Thor to Avengers to Dark World to Ragnarok to Infinity War to the Loki series is, I would argue, a little bit different in every iteration! This works in part because he's a very flexible character, in many ways - there are a lot of ways you can read and approach him. Very fitting, that, for the kind of character he is: trickster, changeable, adaptable, in constant motion. Some characters tolerate that characterization wobble more than others and I think Loki is one of them.

And some of those ways I personally like more or less, but my feeling has always been that I can see Loki in all of them, I can see where the read is coming from, and while I personally may - as I do with comics - choose to throw out bits and pieces and keep what I like - I don't think there's, like, One True Clear Characterization across the MCU. A few points that hold true, but not really a defined, unchanging characterization. And I think the Loki series, as much as any other installment in the MCU featuring him, mostly holds true to those points, while choosing to emphasize or focus on some different ones.

2. To a certain extent I think the Loki show was hamstrung by its format - by which I mean the six episode season. It means that when you're trying to develop character and plot, you end up having to speedrun it a little. And sometimes you can make that work, but it's hard, and it requires a very deft hand, and if you're someone, like me, who prefers a slower burn for her character work, a show that is trying to do the amount of character work the Loki series was in the confines of six episodes...is going to have a rough time.

Because it is trying to do...a lot of character work. It's taking him from the height of his villainy into a more heroic role, while also having to tell a coherent story. I think you can see some of this speedrunning in the first episode with Loki watching the rest of his life as it goes in canon - in that case it was very effective, but it is a very quick and dirty way of justifying a character changing course by breaking them down very fast and very hard.

I think to a certain extent the character work faltered from the first episode, where it was strongest, later in the series to where it felt more like more focus was on the plot. Fair! I don't actually expect shows to dedicate all their time to character development. That might be what I'm kind of here for but I recognize that's sort of a me problem. But I don't think the characterization necessarily faltered - I think it just felt like, to me, it was going too fast, and to me, it didn't tonally match what I wanted.

but not tonally matching what I want isn't necessarily wrong; it's just not what I want.

and honestly the things that I liked about the show I felt like it did well - particularly how it was working with themes of choice and agency and change, and the way Loki interacts with concepts of villainy/heroism, that are very core to some of my favorite Loki stories (someone on the creative team was reading Journey Into Mystery and Agent of Asgard).

Ultimately though I think what it comes down to is that while I could nitpick the things I don't like about the series, and enumerate what I think are its flaws, I just don't really care to. because as has been the case with almost the entire MCU, it comes down to "did I like more than I didn't" and the answer here, unless the finale dramatically changes my mind, is "yes." In which case, this being the MCU, I could spend all day picking at what I didn't like, but ultimately I just find that kind of tiring and depressing.

also like. I'm sorry or whatever but I love Sylvie, she's a beautiful mess of a woman and I'm into that.

anyway wow I wrote a fucking essay, sincerest apologies

#conversating #anonymous #loki's a goddamn mess #loki series tag #opinions meme #lise memes

[iamnmbr3]

I saw the ask about having the person feeling like that the Loki show is objectively bad. I liked the show, here is why.

I love Loki, and I love the MCU, but I don’t go into any of it expecting consistency. Tony and Loki are my favourite.

Tony goes through character development in his own movies, IM3 especially that main canon just kinda ignores. So I didn’t go into work he Loki show expecting them to get him consistent or right. I just went in prepared to enjoy the show for what it is in isolation. I also know that no one looks at the stories they write for the MCU critically, so I try and turn off that for a first time watch.

I really like the show, that doesn’t mean I think they made it consistent or in character for Loki. I get why people don’t like it.

I really like the TVA and all the concepts it introduced. I really liked seeing Tom acting his heart out. And I really like Loki/Sylvie because I find something very compelling about a character who hates themselves, meeting another version of themselves and being able to love them. It is not a ship I’m going to write fic about but I like them within the show.

Basically what I am saying is that I go into MCU media with the expectation they will mess up at least one character or plot point badly every time. I like the media for what it is, and I appreciate whatever it brings to the table that I can then cannibalise into da works.

Yeah that's fair. Everyone has a right to their own opinion. Fandom is better when there are a diversity of opinions and we can all respect each other and engage in open and good faith discussion rather than attacking people for having the "wrong" views or trying to harass them out of fandom.

For me personally I feel like the show fails on 3 fronts.

1) To me it fails as a Loki show. I really enjoy Loki as a character and I wanted a show about him. And I didn't personally see him in the show at all. I saw a completely different character who does not behave, speak, act, respond, react, stand, emote, or make choices like Loki does. He doesn't even LOOK like Loki because they did his hair and makeup wrong. And that's really what I wanted. I didn't want Larry (as I call the show character). I wanted Loki. That was what was advertised and to me he was so ooc that he was unrecognizable. If I just saw a clip out of context and didn't know what it was from I would have assumed I was seeing Tom in a totally different role.

Thor Ragnarok felt like a different take on Loki that definitely retconned some of his personality and history, but still felt like an alternate interpretation of the same character in the sense that I could recognize the character as Loki (albeit a different version of him); some people liked that, other didn't. But here it wasn't that. It just felt like a completely new (and to me far less interesting and compelling) character. And beyond that it felt like the show went out of its way to make a mockery of the character played by Tom and by extension anyone who ever cared about Loki's character. Like it felt like a mean spirited caricatured parody. Loki is also extremely sidelined in what is supposed to be his own show. And it most certainly didn't feel like a show about Loki, which is what I wanted. So for me the show didn't provide what I was looking for.

2) To me it also fails on its own merits. If I view it in isolation without comparing it to previous canon and just view it as its own thing it also fails. The quality of the dialogue felt very poor. None of the humor made me laugh and it all felt very juvenile and forced. The plotting and characterization seemed nonsensical and all over the place. Like Sylvie sets off those charges and the episode ends on a cliffhanger with that but then it's never addressed later.

The reason that Loki and Syvie allegedly falling in love breaks the timeline didn't really make sense. Sylvie is going around murdering timekeepers and yet Mobius somehow immediately like and trusts her and says he prefers her to Loki. Loki and Sylvie are simultaneously presented as the same person and also totally different people. Loki allegedly learns self love but we never see that - we see him call himself degrading things like pathetic. And we see him think that Sylvie is better than him. That doesn't seem like self love. The romance feels extremely rushed and unrealistic and awkward and we aren't given a compelling reason for why they are in love or what they even have in common. Sylvie doesn't really have much of a character. Mobius and Loki don't interact much and Mobius consistently mistreats him but Loki somehow thinks of him as a friend. Mobius is portrayed as a good guy for cheerfully carrying out the TVA's ends but Kang is a villain for creating the TVA. The TVA seems to be all made up of humans even though it's in charge of all reality.

If Loki did bad things, then the TVA did worse things and thus are not moral authorities. If the TVA’s actions are acceptable then so are Loki’s. If Loki was wrong to violently impose his will on a planet (let’s forget about the context with Thanos for a minute) then the TVA is wrong to violently impose its will on all of reality in order to eliminate free will. If Loki was wrong to kill a few people, then the TVA was certainly wrong to kill trillions. And thus neither Mobius nor the TVA are moral authorities when it comes to Loki because they are infinitely worse. If the actions that Mobius and the TVA took are acceptable, then there is no reason to criticize Loki because he did far less than them. Etc etc etc.

The cinematography is also very poor and unprofessional and the costumes look extremely cheap and unprofessional. The whole story feels confused and disjointed. The directing is bad because the actors are all very capable but the performances often feel wooden and forced and fake. And the pacing is terrible. A lot of it drags and then plot twists come out of nowhere with no setup so it just makes them feel jarring rather than earned or entertaining. 

3) To me it also fails on a moral front. The show contains a lot of problematic depictions and messages and promotes messages that are offensive or even downright harmful.

Mobius gleefully subjects Loki to physical torture by leaving him to be repeatedly beaten in the genital area. This is a very clearcut and straight forward example of physical torture. And Mobius feels no compassion for Loki or remorse over what he has done to him. If anything he seems to find it amusing. And certainly the audience is supposed to find it amusing (which is gross and harmful messaging on Disney’s part). He also subjects Loki to psychological torture. This is a fact. There are multiple instances in the show where the TVA and Mobius subject Loki to treatment that would meet the legal definition of torture under both US law and international law. Furthermore, Mobius and the TVA are holding Loki against his will and forcing him to labor without compensation or any hope of release because they view him as belonging to a group of people (Variants) that they view as inferior and not really people. That’s a pretty textbook case of slavery. So objectively Mobius is Loki’s jailer, torturer, captor, and enslaver. And yet Mobius is presented as justified in what he does to Loki. The writer and director have even called it therapy. And a result many people have parroted this which is very harmful.

The queer “representation” feels straight out of bigoted propaganda. Loki’s personality traits have been retconned to map onto harmful stereotypes about queer men. He is overly expressive, makes grand gestures, is flamboyant, cowardly, dishonest, weak, bad at fighting, lazy, spineless, meek, unused to exercise etc. Now a person could be all these things and also happen to be queer. However, Loki was never like this before. His character was retconned to be this way only in this series where he is confirmed to be queer.

Furthermore, the entire premise of the series seems to be that it is funny and entertaining and justified when Loki is dehumanized, mocked, humiliated, hurt, tortured, beaten, assaulted, and/or robbed of his dignity. That’s the premise. That’s the whole show.

In addition to pro torture and pro authoritarianism and pro victim blaming messaging the show also has problematic depictions of black characters  (see here and here), Asian people (see here) and also has a lot of fludphobia and transphobia issues. And much more.

@nikkoliferous has put together a great compendium here of various posts explaining the various issues with the show if you're curious about why some people disliked it.

#asks #loki tv series #loki series #loki 2021 #loki show #loki tv show #Marvel #MCU

[thelightofthingshopedfor]

Absolutely. I get that maybe Loki- quiet and sensible Thor- loud and brash is probably too simplistic as we then go on to learn more about them, and that's more how they are in certain circumstances, but again, that wasn't dreamed up, we saw it with the interaction with Laufey. And I'd also argue Loki is very sensible with Sylvie in the finale in the same way. He isn't always chaotic like new canon likes to depict him, again, depending.

right, and not just Laufey, but pretty much all the early scenes in the movie--Loki is quiet at Thor’s coronation while Thor eats up the attention. Thor and Odin yell at each other in the vault while Loki just watches them and says nothing (which I think was probably the scene were I first strongly identified with him as a character, so...there’s that), maybe because it’s safer and he doesn’t want to get yelled at too, maybe because this is going more or less like he wanted/expected, maybe some of both, but it always strikes me that he’s completely silent and the other two don’t even notice. this dynamic is normal for them. at least to some extent, Loki is the quiet one who ends up in the shadows, overlooked; Thor is the loud, bright sibling who demands everyone’s attention. (then of course you have the bit where Thor throws a literal tantrum and overturns a whole feast table, and Loki is there not doing that.) the same thing happens in the Observatory right before Thor’s banished, too--Thor and Odin yell at each other, Loki is silent and overlooked in the background, definitely freaked out this time, except here Odin actively silences him when he tries to say something. that’s all very much canon! it’s reflected again in Ragnarok, even, where Loki doesn’t get a single line of dialogue in the final cut of Odin’s death scene (although that time Odin takes notice of him anyway, which indicates Odin at least learned something from all this, even if it was way too late).

but again, I think new canon can be completely complementary. it’s possible to compare the two and go, okay, for starters we can assume that by the time of Thor’s banishment, the whole Odinfam had settled into some pretty entrenched toxic patterns of behavior in their relationships with each other, to the point that none of them even fully realized there were problems until the problems spectacularly blew up in everyone’s faces, and the way Loki acts is partly a product of that environment. as much as he genuinely loved Asgard, it had become pretty stifling and toxic for him, and his behavior changes when he’s taken away from everything he’s ever known--

but also, there are still a lot of throughlines in his behavior. this post shows a lot of them, and it doesn’t even hit everything. we see a lot more of Loki’s chaotic side in the show, true, but he’s also pretty consistent in things like...preferring diplomacy and/or guile over brute force (pickpocketing Mobius instead of continuing to try attacking him, trying to talk to the variant in Roxxcart, the thing with the old woman, the thing on the train, trying to persuade Mobius in episode 4), or at least on some level thinking about people who tend to be forgotten in these types of fights (specifically offended that three “space lizards” control the fate of trillions of people, seems upset about TVA agents not knowing they’re being lied to, “they’re going to let these people die,” recognizes the massively bad consequences to everyone if they make the wrong choice in episode 6) or wanting to think things through at least a little before taking irrevocable action with a completely unknown outcome (everything in the Citadel, like you said; in some ways Pompeii is an example of this in the opposite direction, where he acted impulsively in part because he was certain he was right), or being a giant fucking nerd (I mean this was pretty much just a headcanon before! and I think we can all agree that now it is in fact canon!). it shows up in different ways, sometimes in ways that do seem kind of jarring, but a lot of his underlying attitudes are pretty similar. that’s why I’m still pretty comfortable thinking that it’s possible to make all of it work together, really, because it mostly does if you look for those throughlines.

#conversations #anonymous #loki #loki meta #my meta #thor #odin #marvel cinematic universe #loki show #loki series #thor: ragnarok

[lokiondisneyplus]

Although Loki has been a fixture of the Marvel Cinematic Universe since 2011’s Thor, the character has never had his own musical identity. That all changed with Loki - the Marvel Cinematic Universe’s latest Disney+ series - and the music of Natalie Holt. The innovative, versatile score is a perfect match for the God of Mischief’s sensibilities and is easily among the best sonic works we’ve heard in the genre.

As such, we were excited to sit down with Holt to discuss the inspiration behind the score’s instrumentation, sticking up for her music in late-night dub sessions, and being part of the MCU.

I want to start right at the beginning. What was your reaction when you booked the Loki meeting?

I just knew that it was the biggest opportunity I'd ever had, and I really prepped hard. I went into the meeting with my ideas really fleshed out, and quite a lot of my responses to the script seemed to by some lucky coincidence fit with the directors. That was cool. I then got to do the pitch after the meeting, so I had to score the time theater scene in episode one, and I totally went to town on that as well. I really wanted this job so much because I felt that Loki was a great character and I was a big fan.

You and director Kate Herron were immediately on the same page in regards to using a Theremin for Loki. What was it about that instrument that appealed to you for this project?

A friend of mine had sent me ‘The Swan’ by Clara Rockmore ages ago, and I just loved the sound of it. I had also been listening to lots of BBC Radiophonic workshops, and I'd seen this documentary about Delia Derbyshire as well so I had all these 1950’s, analogue-y synth sounds buzzing around in my head. Tom Hiddleston has a Shakespeare-like quality to his performance, so I thought this needs to have some kind of classical, weighty grandness. So it was a fusion of those two things.

You weren’t on set for Loki, and I know that is something you like to do. In the absence of that, what sparked your creativity the most?

It was engaging with the character in a really deep way. The storyline really got under my skin and inspired me. I had the Loki theme in the pitch, so that’s been there from day one. And as for the riffs in the theme, I feel like Loki is the Salieri to Thor’s Mozart, so I was listening to lots of that. There's a bit of ‘Ride of the Valkyries’ by Wagner in Loki’s theme as well. That was all in the pitch. Then I had a month to write the suite. That was the Mobius theme, the Sylvie theme, and the Variant theme.

For all the hi-tech stuff we see in Loki, the TVA is also very analogue in some respects and you’ve clearly taken that into account with the score. How quickly did you catch onto that and are there any other ways that are reflected in your score?

I sampled lots of clock-ticking sounds. I worked with Daniel Sonnabend - he’s got lots of old analog tape machines - and we were messing around with that. The tape machine player almost became its own instrument. We had this big church bell for the timekeepers at the beginning of episode four. That was sampled and then downgraded, so it gets glitchy as it goes on to signify what’s happening in the story. I was just messing around with a lot of that in the background, and it's all over everything. There's always an urgency and a time-ticking feeling in the background of lots of tracks.

How long does one spend listening to samples of clocks before you find the right one?

I've got a lot! I'm sure they'll come in handy at some point.

I’ve read that you wanted a score that “reflected Loki’s personality.” What were some of the characteristics you were looking to emphasise and accentuate with your score?

Something that I touched on with Kate, from reading the scripts for the very first time was Anthony Burgess’ A Clockwork Orange. In that film, Alex commits these horrendous acts and he's extremely violent, and yet somehow you connect with him. I feel like Loki is the same. He's a likable villain. In the series, he comes to terms with his fallibility and it is quite painful for him. So I suppose my job is to help him reach those emotional depths. When he sees his mother in episode one, his past is calling to him and that's when we hear those haunting Norwegian instruments that suddenly seem to shine. Yearning for your mother is something we can all relate to.

We’ve spoken a bit about the use of the Theremin. What drove your selection of the other instruments?

I did this amazing lockdown project for an ad agency. They kind of got all of their artists to play Pass the Parcel with a theme, and we just did this lockdown piece. I'm not sure how successful it was, but the person that I got sent the material from was Charlie Draper who's a theremin player and a theremin enthusiast. So he was in the back of my mind, and I knew I really wanted to collaborate with him at some point. He played on my demo. And then the Norwegians... I saw them at a concert in Stoke Newington about three years ago. They're in this group called the Lodestar Trio. They're amazing, and they play with Max Bailey. I've known him for years, and I just went to this concert. He did all these interpretations of Bach, but with a kind of Norwegian folky twist. I just loved the instrument combination of the Nyckelharpa, the Hardanger fiddle, and the violin. It sounds mystical and magical and amazing. It felt like the perfect pairing with Loki’s past.

I read that you started with the finale and worked backward. Is that an unusual way of working for you or do you do that often?

This whole show has been a departure from anything I've ever done before, in terms of the scale of it, and, you know, the resources. It's all just been different. I think Kate and Kevin [Feige], the producer, saw it as a six-hour film. They didn't want it to be a TV show. The thing about scoring a film is that you do have that time to really craft themes and to have more of an overarching narrative than you sometimes get to do in TV because there's usually a quicker turnaround. And I guess because of the pandemic as well, I had more time.

I didn’t want to just work my way through the score in a linear order. I wanted to know where I was going and then seed it. I think writing a suite before starting on a picture, and having those themes in my mind before seeing the footage was super useful as well. I think I'm always going to do that from now on.

Are we ever gonna hear the full suites somewhere down the line?

I had never done one before. And I was like, “have you got any examples from anybody else?” So they sent me suites from a couple of other composers, like Ludwig Göransson’s one for Black Panther. I was totally geeking out on that. I heard Mark Mothersbaugh’s suite for Thor: Ragnarok as well, and that was kinda intimidating. But it was really good to hear that they've all gone through this process.

You get to see these epic moments in Loki before there’s any music to it. Was there any particular moment you watched that you were excited to work on?

I read the scripts, and I had Mobius in my head as something very different. I saw him being a bigger person who was quite slow, like a kind of cheeseburger-eating cop. The way Owen Wilson brought that character to life was so brilliant, as was the chemistry between him and Tom. I loved watching their bromance. It was really fun to score them as their relationship blossomed. When Mobius is pruned, that was so awesome. I loved episode four. I had seeded everything and built their friendship up. That moment where Tom walks down the corridor in slow motion with tears in his eyes… I loved scoring that.

Loki is a man of many multitudes, and the show goes down a lot of strange avenues. I love the tracks where you really get to do something different from the main body of the score, like ‘DB Cooper’ or ‘Miss Minutes’.

I had a bit more time for episodes one and two. Like, I had a month to score episode one. By the time I got to episode six, it was really frantic. So, with the tracks you mentioned, I just had the time to do it. Kate was like, “we've got a source track that sort of works, but wouldn't it be really fun if we could do a version of it with the Loki theme?” And I was like, “yep, cool, let's try it.” It was one of the upsides to the pandemic, that we had more time to work on it and do stuff like that. I did a film before with where I got Chris Lawrence - he's like a bass player in London, and he plays in orchestra’s but he also plays at Ronnie Scott’s - and he did the baseline on ‘D.B. Cooper’. He’s so good. And I sang on that track too!

‘Miss Minutes’ felt like a moment to tip your hat to those sci-fi shows and do a pastiche. So I got the theremin and the choir and had some fun with that piece. And again, that's got the TVA theme in it. I think that’s really nice, and it's something they did with WandaVision as well. There's cohesion in the score. Even when you're hearing this jazzy track, you're still getting the Loki theme and you're hearing a different side of his character.

You mentioned how you had more time to score the earlier episodes. Was there anything positive about having less time on the later episodes? How do you prefer to work?

I remember reading something about people who can see colours with music. I feel that I have the same thing with a scene. I can watch a scene and I can start hearing it in my head, and as I get more into a project... I remember watching episode six, and because I was so into the project and into the characters by that point, I was like, that's what needs to happen. I could hear it as I was watching it. I feel like sometimes if you’re spending ages working on something, that instinct can get a bit boiled down. Episode six felt like my most instinctive version of the music because I didn't have time to fiddle around with it. It just felt like that was my very undiluted response.

I like it. Natalie Holt uncut.

I just kind of sketched it all out on the piano as I heard it. It was very quick.

How long did you have to work on that particular episode?

I think it was a week. It was a very quick turnaround with the orchestral recording, and I thought we were going to need more time.

How involved were you with the track Tom Hiddleston sings in Asgardian?

They had found a Norwegian song, and he'd already recorded it. I was like, I think we need a musician in the background. There should be someone on that train who’s a little bit drunk and has an instrument, and it's a kind of space-age fiddle, and they're going to accompany Tom in the scene and I think that's going to really help. Kate and Kevin were like, yeah, that could really work. So I did a few versions where I just took what Tom had done, added some violins,  and then improvised a bit in the middle where Loki sings to Sylvie. And they're like, yes, we've got to do this. So they went back in and shot a pickup of an alien musician in that sequence because I insisted. I really wish it was me!

We know that season two of Loki is in the works now. They better have you on camera.

Oh my god, I'm so up for it!

How did you find it working remotely? Were you involved in the mixing stage at all?

It was kind of frustrating. Getting picture to work in the orchestral recording sessions was a problem. Marvel is very strict about how a picture goes out because they don't want any leaks, so that was quite challenging. I could never send people the picture to play with. It's kind of nice for the musicians to come in and see what they're playing against, but there was none of that. That was a bit of a downside. With that said, it was easier to get hold of people because everyone was at home and really happy to be working. I don't know if I'd have got the job had it not been for the fact that everyone was suddenly happy to accept more remote working than they would have done in the past. So I feel like it's opened some doors. The frustrations and the benefits seemed to be in balance.

Speaking of opening doors, you’re only the second woman to compose an MCU score (Pinar Toprak scored Captain Marvel in 2019). That feels significant.

We're in a time, certainly, where I think people are very consciously opening up opportunities to all sorts of people that wouldn't have had those opportunities before, which I'm really grateful for. A few years ago, I wouldn't have gotten this opportunity until a bit further on in my career. So it accelerated things. We are moving forward. But the thing that I really struggle with… I went to a state school and I got scholarships to study music. It wasn't prohibitively expensive to go to university. I did a master's and I didn't come out with 30 grand of debt. The opportunities are here for me now, but I think if I was young and I wanted to go to film school I wouldn't be able to afford it.

So what bothers me is social mobility. I still think we're opening up our industry, but we're not supporting people being able to study music and being able to get into film, and being able to spend those years doing low-paid jobs from the ground up. I still think we've got a long way to go with that. But I think at my age and my level, I'm just privileged that I did have those bursaries and those opportunities to study music, and I hope they're still there for my daughter's generation.

You have a lot of synths in this score. How tricky was it to find that balance between the classical and modern instruments?It's a blend. There’s some in-the-box stuff. Some of the synths are recorded, and then I ran them through the analog tape machine to dirty them up. I've got a Juno 60, so I've got some analog synths going on. It's such a weird process, isn't it? Creating something and being like, no, that's right! Jake Jackson - who mixed the score - must feel like I’m a complete control freak. I was like, “yeah I really like your mix but can you just go back and basically listen to my demo?” I was quite specific with him. He did an amazing job. The D.B. Cooper track... I cannot believe that he made it sound like that. I've never worked with him before, and handing your work over to an engineer does feel a bit like, oh, how's this gonna be? But it was a really, really great experience, and I think Jake is a genius. He really gets it, and he was really collaborative and respectful of my intentions with everything. I never felt like he was trying to put his mark on anything. It was a really smooth part of the process.

What conversations do you have about how prevalent your music is in the mix when it comes to the TV side of things?

I was so obsessed with Loki that I couldn’t let it go. I went to the dub even when it was two o'clock in the morning. I just wanted to check in and I was calling Kate and asking her, “please can you turn the music up here?” I was like a dog with a bone until it was ripped out of my mouth and they were like that’s it now, this episode is locked. I definitely fought for things to be turned up.

You had a 32-piece choir for the last 2 episodes. What was it like to get that recording in? Are you watching as they’re recording it from a remote location?

They were a Hungarian choir. The male singers could really go down. I was adding notes in at the bottom for those guys to sing. I didn’t know anyone could sing that low. That was cool. I had never recorded a choir before, so it was a new one for me. I was really lucky to have Andy Brown from the London Metropolitan orchestra. He assisted me with the Brass and singing sessions.

I imagine that one of the cooler things about scoring something like Loki is that you are now part of the wider MCU universe. I think I heard hints of Alan Silvestri’s Avengers cue a couple of times…

I put in a Loki version of the Avengers theme at the end of episode 4. Also, at the very start of the season before the title card, it goes from an Alan Silvestri cue and then segues and then I take it over. It was really cool to get to play around with the multitrack from that. I was always a big fan of the Thor: Ragnarok and Black Panther scores, so those were kind of my inspirations. I was just kind of honoured to be in the same league as those people and those scores because I thought they were great and quirky and had all these interesting flavours and textures.

I love that you’ve been given the freedom to be as bold as you’ve been with your score.

I wanted to do something a bit different, and Marvel's TV ventures... they're wanting to do something a bit different and challenging as well with this new direction that they're taking. It felt like there was a lot of creative freedom being dished out with this series, in every department. Kate was like, “let's try this DB Cooper scene with the theme, if it doesn't work then it's fine.” It was just trying things out and seeing what stuck.

I remember handing over my score for episode one, just before Christmas 2020. I'd scored the whole thing and was very nervous because I think it was the first time Kevin Feige and the execs were going to hear my stuff. I’d really worked hard on it, and it had a lot of live stuff. There was just one note back from Kevin Feige - push it further. I think that's so cool. As we went on the execs were really happy with it, I got calls from Victoria Alonso and Louis D’Esposito [Marvel producers]. They both rang me and just thanked me and they were like, 'we're just so happy that you've taken the ball and run with it'. I couldn't have asked for a nicer bunch of people to work with. I wasn't sure how it was going to be, I was a bit intimidated. I thought it might be a bit more terrifying. But actually, it turned out to be a really amazing, fulfilling experience.

Welcome to the world of Loki YouTube covers! How far down that rabbit hole have you fallen, and how much are you enjoying that side of the MCU experience?

It's really flattering. I’ve posted some of them on my Twitter. It’s just amazing how quickly people will post music from the show after episodes. They sound almost the same as my demo, and they’ve knocked it out in about two hours the minute after they’ve watched the episode.

Once your work on Loki was complete, how did you detox? Do you delete all your voice memos?

I've still got them. The TVA theme actually came to me as I was walking down the high street. I've got some in the bank for the future as well. I'm always noodling and sketching things down on manuscript paper. How do I detox? I just bought a new piano. It’s 100 years old. I haven't had a piano for a bit, so I've just been playing a lot of Bach.

#Loki #Natalie Holt #composer #interview

[delyth88]

Loki episode 5 rewatch

It’s been a busy week so it wasn’t until yesterday that I had a chance to watch Episode 5 again. And I was a little worried I might not like it as much as I did on first watch, but thankfully I did still find a lot to like about this episode.

Spoilers below...

Firstly, I think it’s taken this long, but I’ve finally gotten used to this new variant of our Loki. To this overly emotive, sweetly stupid at times, often bewildered version of the character.  Let me be clear, he is absolutely not being presented in the same was at the first three films, Infinity War, or even Ragnarok. But I’m finding him easier to watch now that I have no hopes or expectations that he will be the Loki I was hoping we’d get to see again.  Sure, I’m sad they didn’t give us a continuation of the Loki we’re grown to love, but this guy seems to be starting to find his feet, and I’m curious to see what his potential is now.

I was again struck by the increased sense of purpose (no pun intended) of this episode.  It seems to be going places more so than previous episodes were. And again I loved the opening sequence and the music as we travel through the TVA and then out into the Void. It did make me wonder whether the destroyed city was actually a version of the timeline where Loki/Thanos win the Battle of New York, and that’s as far as the significance of that set goes.  My hunch is that we won’t see that long shot of Loki from the trailers in post-apocalyptic New York. They opted for the mirror of the Avengers scene instead as the way Loki finds himself in this place.

I laughed at Loki’s little rant this time too. Particularly the line “plus an alligator, that I’m heartbroken to report I didn’t even find all that strange!”.  In fact there were a few moment when I felt we were getting a little bit of Loki’s old humour. Such as, his “Delightful.” In response to kid Loki talking about cannibalistic pirates, “This is a nightmare.” and “Don’t die isn’t a plan, it’s a general demand of living”.

I do wonder though if this is just about comparison with the other Lokis?  Like they’re all so very much more on the extreme end of comical that it makes our Loki seem the straight guy in comparison? *shrug*

After several days I am still taken by Old Loki and his story.  And on watching it again I was able to appreciate the little moments leading up to his fighting Alioth. He gives the impression of being just so Over It and his crazy comics outfit also directs the audience away from how much he actually cares.  For example he is really quite upset at Lokis in general and presumably also himself after the betrayal by Boastful Loki. He says “We cannot change. We’re broken. Every version of us. Forever.”

And he seems quite affected by Mobius’ offhand comment that “it’s never too late to change”.

And then that look back towards Loki and Sylvie as Alioth approaches.

Gah! This is the kind of thing I wanted for our Loki.  I don’t have the right words to describe it, but it’s partly the back story, partly the change of heart, partly the stakes, the emotional depth. I’m really quite sad that we won’t see more of him.  :( 

@scintillatingshortgirl19​ you asked me what I thought of Loki’s response when Sylvie asks, “How do I know that in the final moments you won’t betray me?”

“Listen Sylvie, I…” Loki pauses and takes a deep breath “I betrayed everyone who ever loved me.  My father, my brother, my home.  I know what I did, and I know why I did it. And that’s not who I am anymore. Okay? I won’t let you down.”

To be honest on my first watch I think I just let it slide over me as yet another one of those lines where they keep telling us what we’re supposed to think of Loki (whether it’s true or not).  I think Episode 4 might have broken me – I didn’t even blink an eyelid.  I think I’ve just heard so many people saying things that I think are absolutely wrong about Loki that I’m just… used to it now?  I dunno. Maybe it was just my mood, or the fact that there were enough other things I enjoyed in the episode that I could ignore it.

But since you pointed it out I’ve been thinking about it and after my rewatch I kinda think Loki has been a little bit influenced by recent events and conversations.  He’s just watched with embarrassment several different versions of himself strike bargains and then betray each other, in such an extreme example of this behaviour that it seemed absurdly comic. Boastful Loki even says “I betrayed you, and now I’m king.” And as they leave the Loki fight behind Old Loki says “We lie and we cheat! We cut the throats of every person who trusts us! And for what! Power!”  So I can kinda see why betrayal is on his mind.  

And perhaps this is something he’s been thinking about for a while now.  Since he tried to strike a bargain with Sylvie before he even really knew her. Old Loki ask if Loki trusts Sylvie and he says” “She’s the only one [of the Loki variants] I do trust! “

But I guess the way I interpreted it is not just literal betrayal like he just watched with the other Loki variants, but also letting people down. Letting himself down. In this context betraying his father would be the events of Thor 1 where he betrays his father’s trust by letting the frost giants into the weapons vault (I think he’s talking about Odin here, not Laufey), and then by not being able to be a good king in the eyes of his father or even his own standards while Odin was in the Odinsleep.  I don’t think he would be thinking of the moment where he lets Laufey into Odin’s chamber because he always intended to betray Laufey and save Odin. Although maybe he feels guilt for that too, in terms of lying to his father.  In regards to his brother, I’d consider any of the times Loki is acting against his brother’s interests, in a serious way such as the times that he was evading and fighting against Thor in Avengers, or when he sent the Destroyer in Thor 1 as betrayals of a sort, and the frost giants at the coronation again. And in regards to his ‘home’ I assume from his perspective this is again about the coronation and the events that led to the destruction of the Bifrost and as far as he’s aware war with Jotunhiem.  Perhaps he’s thinking of the moment when Odin says to Thor “... you are unworthy of the loved ones you have betrayed!” Potentially he’s also thinking of Ragnarok and his actions in causing it after what he read in his file in the TVA. Personally I think he knows it was necessary but still feels a ton of guilt about being the one to actually do it. In this case it’s a betrayal in action but not in heart.

So I think he’s kinda focusing on the guilt he feels. And I think this is why he feels it could extend to Frigga, although he doesn’t mention it I think we as the audience are meant to assume it.  But again, this is in terms of the guilt he feels at a future version of himself inadvertently causing Frigga’s death – as he’s heard this story second-hand from Mobius. You know how if you start feeling bad about something it’s very easy to expand that to a whole bunch of other things you’ve done?  These are the times he feels guilty for his actions in hindsight.

I also think he’s kinda lumping a bunch of things together under the umbrella of the wording of the question that Sylvie has asked.  I think if she’d used a different word he would have echoed that back to her too.

I also think he starts of with “Listen Sylvie, I..” because he was about to defend himself, refuse to acknowledge that he would do such a thing and minimise it, by saying some version of “I would never do that”.  But he catches himself and takes the opposite approach of laying all his faults out plain. Admitting in a slightly exaggerated way that he has betrayed people in the past and he knows it, which he considers is more likely to be believed, and that he won’t betray Sylvie because he’s changed since then.

So I don’t know if I really have a conclusion to draw from this, but I think Loki is exaggerating out of guilt. 

But this is also one of those lines that where the character is telling us not showing us.  Which seems to have started in Ragnarok and is being continued in this series. It’s frustrating, I don’t like it, but it seems this is what they do now.  :/

***

So, it’s taken me a whole ‘nother day to get to finish writing this, and I’ve realised that this is the first episode in a while that has been on my mind since I watched it.  I’m actually invested again! Which I was very much not after Episode 4.

This episode had another piece of Loki’s story, in the form of Old Loki, and that was wonderful, and tragic.  And we’re starting to get somewhere with the plot now.  

And unlike in previous episodes where it looked like they’d left hints of things to come but that turned out not to be the case, I actually feel like we might get payoff for all those comments about Loki’s magic.  Probably not in a way I’d prefer, but at this point I’ll take any sort of change that gives Loki a bit more control over his life.

I’m also feeling again like this story matters.  With episodes 3 and 4 I wasn’t really feeling it.  I hope I’m not too disappointed. lol

I still don’t like the romance, but having resigned myself to the fact this is what they’re doing last week I was better able to watch this.  The fact that Sylvie is as utterly incompetent at personal relationships as our Loki does make it more tolerable to me, and if I take it as some weird AU (which lets be fair is exactly what this is) it is kinda cute. In a way I like that they’re both late 30s/early 40s in appearance, not teens or twenty-somethings. It adds this extra layer to their awkwardness and I think brings home how weird tit is that these thousand year old beings don’t know how to be friends if you can do the mental jumps required to believe this in the first place. I still want it to be platonic or at least not taken any further.  I will gag if they kiss in the finale. 

#loki #loki series #loki episode 5 #spoilers #my review #loki series negativity #loki series positivity #a bit of both

[otterskin]

Pet Peeves in Thor Stuff

Inspired by a few posts doing this, so thought I’d vent and get it out here.

1. MCU Loki’s Name

I don’t care what the fan-run wikis say. All the official MCU material, including the text of the actual movies themselves, call him Loki Odinson or, for a brief period, Loki of Asgard. Loki Laufeyson is the name of a character from Marvel comics, and him having that name makes sense for that character’s backstory, which is very, very different from ‘adopted at birth and a late discovery’ MCU Loki. Incidentally, Norse Mythology Loki is not Loki Laufeyson, he’s Loki Laufeyjarson, which is a matronym because Laufey is his mother in most Norse Myths.

Loki in Thor 1 was Loki Odinson, Avengers was Loki of Asgard, and he certainly seemed fond of Odin again in Ragnarok and officially reclaimed the title Odinson in IW. He’s called Odinson over and over again in official Marvel publications such as the illustrated dictionary. Please stop using the wrong name. It’s weird and wrong to assume his name MUST default to his birth-father’s upon discovery of adoption, no matter what he’d been called his whole life. Especially when I think it’s pretty clear that Loki vehemently rejects any relationship with that namesake. He literally murdered Laufey to prove to Odin he had only one father, I don’t know how he could be more clear about his preferences.

And yes, I do think that this invalidates the fan-wikis as good sources of information. If they can’t get a name right, you probably shouldn’t trust anything in the article below it. Stick with canon publications.

2. The Transformation Spell

And heck, while we’re on this page, yes, the spell keeping Loki Asgardian is Odin’s. I don’t mind fanfic that posits a different origin, because hey, we’re just trying to have fun here, do what you want and I’ve probably read a lot of it already - but this is the canon explanation, please stop messaging me to tell me I’m wrong when I say it’s Odin’s spell doing it. Also, the reason it didn’t break when Odin died is because magic can outlive the caster, as Doctor Strange said. This ain’t the Phantom Menace.

(Incidentally, this dictionary is fun and even has entries for Huginn and Muninn!)

3. Step-brothers and Half-brothers are different things and neither is correct for Thor and Loki’s relationship. Nor is Odin Loki’s step-father.

I don’t see this in the Thor Fandom much, it’s more in articles and reviews I’ve read, but it’s kinda appalling how people don’t know the difference between brothers, step-brothers, half-brothers, and blood-brothers. Not being sure who your second cousin twice removed is I get, but I would hope that these are much more commonly understood. Just to get it off my chest, even though I’m sure no-one reading has ever thought different -

Step-brothers are when two unrelated families are joined by marriage. The children share no biological parents, but their parents are married. Unless Odin married Laufey at some point, he is not Loki’s step-father, and Thor is not Loki’s step-brother. (I mean, Odin’s had a long and probably very interesting and mysterious life, so I suppose it’s POSSIBLE he had a real bender at one point, but even if he had a Vegas wedding to the King of the Frost Giants and then decided to throw away the ring as if nothing had happened, the relationship he has with Loki has always been identified as ‘Father’).

Half-brothers are when children share one biological parent, but not two. So unless that bender with Laufey got REALLY crazy, Loki is not Thor’s half-brother either.

Blood-brothers - So some people will use this phrase to refer to people who are related by blood, but that’s sort of an older phrase. However, for most elementary school kids and in the context of Norse Mythology, it has another meaning - two people, unrelated by birth, who undergo a ceremony that involves blood mixing as an oath of brotherhood. Norse-Myth Loki is usually depicted as blood-brothers with Odin (and, in a few rare stories I read, with Thor, instead, but that’s a long story about how Thor was slowly starting to replace Odin as chief patriarch and therefore subsuming a lot of his traits and relationships). However, in the MCU, neither of these meanings currently applies to Thor and Loki. They are not blood related, and they’ve not undergone any blood oath ceremony either (although you can bet your briskets I’d LOVE to see that and it’s been in my general prediction box/wish-list since 2011. Imagine how happy it’d make us to see Thor and Loki choose to have their relationship, rather than feeling like it was Odin’s decision and they’re just living with it.).

Brothers - if in doubt about any brotherly relationship, just say this and you won’t be wrong. Thor and Loki are brothers, or adopted brothers, full stop. So no more step-half-blood nonsense.

And to be clear, if you’re writing fanfic that re-imagines this relationship, this is in no way directed at you. I’m more venting at the dearth of articles, presumably written by university graduates with an English degree, who can’t seem to keep this straight.

4. Brother is a Proper Noun

While I’m on this brother train, a small grammatical note - ‘Father’, ‘Mother’, and ‘Brother’, if being used in place of a name, are proper nouns, which means they’re capitalized.

Ex. “Stop smearing your booger on my shirt, Brother.”

It’s not capitalized if it’s not being used in place of a name, but is simply referring to the noun.

Ex. 2 “My brother once ate a whole goat without noticing it was still alive.”

Ex. 3 “I never knew we had a sister.”

Sorry, sorry - but I see this mistake a lot while I’m reading and I daresay I make it myself all the time!

5. Frigga isn’t perfect

Real talk, one of my least favourite tropes in fiction is ‘Woman on a Pedestal’. I really feel it denies female characters agency if they’re made out to be perfect lovely angels loved by everyone. I’ve read a ton of great fics that explore the flaws Frigga is suggested to have in the MCU but never got the screen time to deal with, and they are some of my favourites. I’ve also read a ton where she’s endlessly patient, wise, righteous, and oh-so-much-better than that heartless Odin or oaf Thor, if only she’d been in charge the whole time, nothing would have gone wrong! It’s a matter of taste and I’d never tell anyone to not write what makes them happy, but I really do think Frigga’s a better character when you engage with her mistakes and oversights and less-than-noble aspects. Women in the MCU have really gotten a short shaft when it comes to character arcs, flaws, and general humanity. Almost all the mothers are on pedestals in it, and with that comes a lack of introspection. Frigga could be argued to be in that category, but at least there is some material to suggest her imperfections that can be exploited. (Unlike Quill and Stark’s mothers, say.)

I leave it up to everyone to interpret the character for themselves, but for me her weaknesses are that she

tends to deflect blame for her choices onto others, particularly Odin.

sometimes acts to smooth things over without really acknowledging hurt, either caused or experienced.

has a manipulative streak and isn’t afraid to leverage her sons’ affection for her to get them to do what she wants, which is often ‘smoothing things over’.

probably spoiled her kids a bit

has an allergy to giant knives

Personally I like these things about her. They come from her life as a peace-maker, both in her role as a politician and a Queen and in her role in the family. She’s loyal, clever, witty, a confidant, and had the best scene in Endgame by a long mile. Frigga is the mom we’ve seen the most of, and I would love to see more in any form.

AH.... that felt good. I might do another post on my problems with how Thor is sometimes portrayed, but that’s a whole other, very personal, thing. Thanks for reading this dumb thing.

#pet peeves #meta #thor meta #loki #frigga

[nikkoliferous]

I really think we'd all be better off if we came to an agreement as a fandom that the Loki of Ragnarok and the Loki of the earlier Thor films are just separate characters. And that you can be a fan of both, or neither, or of only one or the other—the same way that some people love only MCU Loki, and some think the MCU fucked up and he was better in the comics, and some appreciate both MCU and Comics Loki for different reasons, and some just don't like Loki period—but we all acknowledge that they are ultimately not the same character. Rather than bashing our heads against a wall by continuing to try and shove a square Loki peg into a round Loki hole. (Please, no butt jokes. Lol).

If they're not the same character—if they're separate fandoms—then there's not so much need to argue over who's in or out of character. It's just, "Oh, yeah, I'm not into that particular universe, that has nothing to do with me." I don't care about TR's Loki. I just don't. Because despite Tom's best efforts, I don't recognise him. I only care about TR's Loki insofar as I feel like I have to care because he's supposedly the Loki I fell in love with, whom I care about beyond reason. Which is the entirety of why I feel so strongly compelled to defend against all the awful character assassination against him. And this is not me trying to tell anyone they can't like TR's version of Loki. If you prefer Taika's vision of Loki or if you enjoy TR's Loki despite the director's bad intentions, that's a matter of preference and I respect it. Just don't come in here gaslighting, pretending that Taika cared about or understood the character when his own literal words contradict that.

My point being, I'd feel a lot less compelled to argue that Ragnarok ruined Loki's character if we weren't all stubbornly pretending they are the same character. If people didn't bring up things from Ragnarok *cough*thesnakestory*cough* as a rationale for why Loki has always been bad and deserved everything that has ever happened to him. If people didn't constantly try to convince me that a character who canonically spent 1000 years doing his best to be a good brother and son has actually been trying to kill Thor all their lives. And I would be more than content with that—with Ragnarok fans and Ragnarok critics just agreeing to treat the films as AUs of one another. I wanted to be clever here, but Loki's name doesn't really lend itself well to Brexit puns, so... hmm.

I don't think this is something that is ever actually going to happen. And the people on the pro-Ragnarok side most likely to comment on this are dishonest actors, so I'm sure I'm wasting my time in reiterating that I'm not saying it would mean you have to choose one fandom over the other any more than I would say you have to choose whether to like baseball or football. You can like both! Or neither! Or just one of them. Personally, I'm a total nerd for baseball and have an irrational hatred for football... so it's not even an altogether bad analogy. It just means we stop twisting ourselves in knots trying to reconcile the irreconcilable.

I'm just rambling at this point. I'm tired of this civil war between Loki fans. It's exhausting. For both sides, I'd imagine. But I also still have enough rage towards the hit job done on Loki (again, not debatable that it was Taika's intention to make him look bad, however you might feel about the ultimate result) to last for centuries. I relate to Loki far too intimately to not be eternally angry at what was done to him. Just as I will be eternally angry at what Odin did to him. When it comes to Odin, most people seem to get that. When it comes to Taika... not so much.

The only way I really know to square that circle is to extend "MCU Loki ≠ Comics Loki" to "MCU Loki ≠ Ragnarok Loki". But since I'm trying to be fair to both sides here by assuming a kind of limbo wherein Ragnarok both is and is not canon, I'll even amend that to "Pre-Ragnarok Loki ≠ Ragnarok Loki". And yeah, I know I'm still gonna get the most petty variety of Ragnarok fans coming around and going, "Neener neener, Ragnarok is canon whether you like it or not!" Well... fair enough, you folks do you. Good luck forcing me to agree with you.

Again, I don't expect this to be something anyone else actually agrees to or adopts. It's just my personal best offer for a ceasefire, I guess. Offer isn't even the right word, really. It's more of a statement of intent. But whatever. I'm tired and rambling and I look forward to finding out what new ways this messy stream of thoughts will be twisted into something it was never meant to be or taken out of context.

#thinking right now about all those taika stans during sdcc last year #who went around tumblr asking ragnarok critics what it felt like to 'lose' #when love & thunder was announced #whatever that means 🤷‍♀️ #incomprehensible brain droppings #ragnarok cinematic universe #loki #fandom wank #mcu

[amandaoftherosemire]

Ice and Moonlight -- Part One

Fandom: Marvel Avengers AU

Pairing: Loki Odinson X Asgardian!Reader

Characters: Loki Odinson, Thor Odinson, Valkyrie, OFC Cassie

Author: @amandaoftherosemire

Rating: Explicit

Word Count: 4,183

Format: Short Series

Warnings: Smut (very light), 18+ only, language, fluff, angst

Summary: You and Loki had been inseparable until his discovery of his true origins and his father’s deceptions. You only spoke to him once more before his sacrifice on Svartlfheim. After his death, heartbroken and left with nothing but unanswered questions, you’d left Asgard to find your fortunes on Midgard. One night, and once again not dead, Loki walks back into your life. The bastard.

A/N: I have a deep weakness for Hozier and this story is absolutely inspired by the chorus of ‘Work Song.’ When music puts a story in my brain, I tend to produce a barrage of words, so this is another one-shot that got away from me. Anyone who has been reading my stuff for awhile will know that this happens to me a lot, but the next part will be up in a couple of weeks at most. I’d be more specific, but I’m still buried in my personal life and eking out time to write so I don’t want to make promises I can’t keep.

This is canon adjacent through Thor: Ragnarok but I split off at that point to keep Loki alive without dealing with the consequences of IW and Endgame. For the purposes of this story, Thanos got super busy playing with a kitten he found, and Infinity War never happened.

Mischief // Malice // Magic

Mischief

You could smell them the moment they walked in, even over the myriad other smells that inundated the air of the bar. That air was redolent with smoke, liquor, wood, humanity, but when the door opened, the air that followed the men carried rain and ozone, ice and moonlight to your nose and you knew they'd found you. Those scents were as familiar to you as your own face, your own name, as there'd never been a day in your memory that you hadn't known and loved them.

The ice and moonlight would have been more of a surprise if your best friend in this realm and any other, Cassie of the wicked laugh and mean left hook, hadn't come barreling into your room this morning to show you the news report she'd been watching on her phone. You'd seen the royal brothers, plural, and the shriek of rage and betrayal hadn't quite clawed its way out of your throat before the rest of the report left you breathless with grief.

Asgard, of golden spires and shining seas, was gone, destroyed in prophesied Ragnarok. Your people were a remnant, refugees in an uncertain universe. You may have left Asgard, but you had intended to go back home, someday. Now someday would never come.

You would have gone to your people right away, offered your comfort to Thor, whom you loved as a brother, except Loki stood at his side and you hadn't yet decided if you were going to acknowledge his second return from the dead. You still hadn't really dealt with his first return.

You didn't look up, merely continued to flick your fingers over the keys of the piano, an instrument you'd taken to almost as soon as you'd set foot on Midgard. Heimdall had set you down in the parking lot of this bar, owned by the sharp-eyed, smart-mouthed Cassie. She'd taken one look, seen a babe in the woods, though a babe that could bench press a semi, and taken you under her wing. In return, you sang for your supper, kept her bar safe and entertained.

You'd found your voice here, a very different one from the ethereal thing that had once lifted out of you like angel song. You could still awe Midgardians with a soaring soprano, but you much preferred the richer, rawer voice you'd found here in the smoke and the dark. Your voice no longer lifted, but poured out of you, fueled by heartbreak Midgardians couldn't fathom, nor could they resist. You packed them in every night to hear the angel that fell to Earth, to witness the magic you made with your voice.

Loki couldn't understand why Thor had dragged him halfway across this horrid little planet to visit another horrid little corner of it. He would have much preferred to find some place plush, comfortable, and quiet to escape, tired of humanity after less than a week in their presence. He enjoyed the fact that he was infamous but would have preferred a little less breathless terror and a little more deferential respect.

Thor immediately sauntered up to the bar, leaning in to grin at the bartender. Though he was wearing jeans and a t-shirt in red that stretched across his massive chest in fascinating and delicious ways, there could be no doubt that he was more than an ordinary man by the scent of ozone and power that hung on him. Cassie merely lifted a brow, wishing she could allow herself to be charmed, but she recognized the pale man behind him as the one who'd, as she thought of it, set you on fire. Loki, gorgeously out of place in a smoke gray suit, sneered at the dark woman whose equally dark eyes were judgmental as they rested on him. Hostility rolled off of her in waves as she stared him down.

Which is how she saw the change come over him when your voice began to wind through the air, twining around the smoke with the same rough warmth. She wondered at the stricken look of hope and despair that chased each other across his face; she'd heard the story from you and knew your last interaction to be viciously ugly, shortly before his supposed death.

Thor was trying to charm the bartender into giving him an unusually large quantity of liquor for Midgard, experienced with human bartenders doubting his usual order. Cassie was letting him, laughing at his earnest explanations. She lived with an Asgardian and knew well their capacity for drink, but he was cute, and she couldn’t resist teasing him.

Cassie didn't know that you'd rarely overindulged on Asgard, too often responsible for the song part of the wine and song celebrations. Thor had known you were here, but he'd remembered his naïve and sheltered friend and Loki's devoted beloved. He didn't know Cassie's rough and tumble bouncer and backup for every ridiculous thing that came out of her mouth.

You'd finished so, so many fights Cassie had started.

Loki, meanwhile, was staring at you as your voice wound into his head, sinking into his gut, sending shivers of heat over his skin. There'd once been a time when the only way he heard your voice this rough and wild was when you were moving under his hands, your body prey to his mouth and rocking him to madness. Now your glorious voice was mated to that sensual rasp and dragging him back to happier days.

'Loki.' He smiled but didn't open his eyes. He could feel the petals of the flower you were toying with brush over his lips. The sun was shining and all he could smell was the warm scent of flowers and you. 'Loki. Are you sleeping, Loki? Loki.' He could hear the laugh in your voice and the sound was so pretty he kept feigning sleep so that you'd keep playing. When he was alone with you, basking in your complete and absolute devotion, he could forget everyone else.

Then you were leaning close, whispering 'Loki' in a tone so sweet it made tears prick at his eyes. You brushed your lips against his, even softer than flower petals, and the low hum in your throat was seducing him, beguiling him. His arms lifted, one hand cupping the back of your head while the other snaked around your waist. In the next moment, he was rolling with you until you were giggling on your back in amongst the flowers, Loki braced over you, green eyes laughing.

'I knew you were awake," you murmured as you drew his mouth down to yours.

 "Loki." Thor clapped him on the shoulder and brought him back to the present, on the Earth you'd escaped to rather than live in an Asgard where you were forever reminded of him, of everything you'd lost. Loki had allowed Thor to believe that Heimdall had been charged with dereliction of duty because he had discovered Loki was impersonating Odin. Rather, Heimdall had let you leave through the Bifrost and refused to say where he'd sent you. Loki had completely lost his temper that day, and when Heimdall went on the run, he'd lost his chance permanently to find out where you'd gone.

Loki saw immediately, however, that Thor had known exactly who he'd find here.

"This is the lovely Cassandra," Thor told Loki, his remaining eye gentle on Loki's shining green. "She has been caring for our Y/N while she has been here."

"Ha!" Cassie barked the laugh and made both Thor and Loki frown at her. "Bitch can take care of herself." Loki's mouth opened to snarl at the insult to you when Thor's hand restrained him. Cassie was already lifting her voice over the applause that broke out at the end of your song. "Hey, Y/N! I got some boys back here think I take care of you."

A rumble of laughter went through the crowd, most of them regulars, many of them witness to at least one of many, many occasions upon which you'd saved Cassie from a fist in the face, and in one case so far, a knife in the gut. Thor and Loki looked around in confusion at the good-natured sound.

"Now, Cassie," you called back, your fingers moving into the opening notes of a more suggestive song, one you sang on a regular basis, "those boys are Asgardians." You smirked and sent a hot look over your piano at your audience. "I was a Lady, before I fell into this den of iniquity." The crowd cheered when you launched into the song and Thor and Loki shared a look, Thor gleeful, Loki shocked.

 Loki stood next to his mother, watching his idiot brother work the crowd, the conceited ass, and fought the urge to roll his eyes. He glanced across to where you stood in the crowd, so close to the royal dais that he could be at your side in half a moment. You were applauding politely, but you didn't bother to resist, rolling your eyes at every ridiculous stunt of Thor's. Loki knew you were going to mock his brother relentlessly for all of this for years to come.

He could hardly wait.

He kept his eyes on you as much as possible, your smiling face keeping him calm even as his heart jumped and jumped with the excitement of his latest mischief. Any moment…

Trying to settle, he focused on the demure neckline of your dress, imagining brushing his lips over the discreet swell there. You were always demure, always a perfect lady in public; he knew one day you'd be a perfect princess, though most important was that you were perfect for him, for each other. You even laughed at the pranks he played on you.

Of course, he was always careful not to play too rough with you. You were too precious to treat with anything less than reverence.

Which is why he felt a rare pang of remorse when he heard his father say, 'The Frost Giants," and he saw terror flash in your eyes. He cursed himself for a fool when he remembered that you'd lived in fear of Frost Giants for years as a child after hearing the story of your father's death.

Your eyes stayed on his face, wide with fear and worry and he could see your hands clasped together in front of you, the knuckles white. His lips curved slightly to reassure. The sight seemed to help as you smiled back, if only a little, and he felt a rush of pride that you, glorious creature that you were, preferred him above all others.

He knew some whispered that he'd ensorcelled you, that there was no other explanation for the fact that the brightest jewel in Odin's court draped herself on the dark Prince's arm. There was no doubt you could charm anyone, including the elder Odinson if you so chose; it was incomprehensible that you should choose the younger.

You'd been raised in the palace alongside them when your father had been killed saving Odin during the War with Jotunheim. You'd been a babe yourself and had grown up with the royal brothers. Even as children, you'd always sought Loki's company, and the whispers of enchantment remained only whispers.

Loki felt another pang of remorse at using Frost Giants to ruin his brother's day when he remembered how much you'd feared them as a child. He made a note to himself to make sweet love to you later to distract you from old fears, find a way to assure you that the monsters couldn't come back. Above all, he'd use other tools in the future.

 Your eyes met his, as though no one else existed, snapping him out of his reverie and bringing him hurtling back to this place where the lady you’d been was dead with your homeworld. He was unsurprised to discover he was rock hard. If he'd ever been able to resist temptation, it hadn't been when you tempted, and he was far less virtuous than he used to be. He was enthralled by the sharp edge to your voice and the wild storms in your eyes, would also be unsurprised should he fall in love with you all over again.

Your eyes were hot with old memories and he wondered if the same ones tormented you. He no longer heard Thor flirting with the angry-eyed bartender, unable to care about her hostility. He recognized her as another that you'd enchanted by being yourself and appreciated the Midgardian's protectiveness, since it was you. He easily ignored the sexual by-play behind him; all he could hear was you, and the ache that hot rasp inspired in his gut was sharp and painful. He wouldn't beg for much in this universe, but he thought you might be the exception.

Loki paused in the hidden corridor behind the wall of your bedchamber, looking down at the hand the Jotun had touched. He could still see the striated blue racing up his arm and the memory was making him feel cold deep, deep inside. He wasn't sure he would be here now if he hadn't promised to come see you. He could hardly believe it had been only a few short hours ago that he'd last spoken with you, pausing a moment to kiss you on his way to Thor. You'd whispered sultrily in invitation that he'd have to sleep with you until they discovered how the Frost Giants had gotten in; he'd whispered back that if he'd known that would be the consequence, he'd have let them in himself.

If he'd known how this day would end, he'd have done anything but.

'Loki?' Your voice was a raspy whisper in the shimmering dark as he slid in between your sheets. He'd promised to come to you as soon as he'd calmed everyone down, expecting to be here hours ago, not really anticipating that it'd be so easy to taunt his brother into going to Jotunheim. Even if he hadn't promised, upon the return from that icy land and the shocking discovery there, followed immediately by the confrontation between his brother and father, he needed to find some semblance of peace. You, if nothing else, remained constant.

For a moment he hesitated, unwilling for reasons he didn't want to examine to touch you with the hand touched by Frost Giants. That hand had betrayed some secret, some hidden aspect to himself that he'd never suspected, sending whispers of fear through him. But after everything that had happened that night, he needed you. His arm slid around your waist to pull you close. 'My love,' he murmured, burying his face in the skin of your neck and breathing deep, his heart racing with a terror he couldn't, wouldn't name.

'Was he that bad?' You turned in his arms to offer comfort, able to hear plainly the lost and broken tone in his voice. Thor could be thoughtless in ill temper and often hurt Loki because he saw only his own pain and frustration. You had long ago become accustomed to tending to Loki when he’d taken a stray lightning bolt.

'I can't--' His voice choked off, but with an emotion you weren't certain you could truly name. You wrapped yourself around him, burying your hands in his hair to hold him close, worried at the pain you thought you heard. As you opened your mouth to ask why he sounded so upset he took a deep breath. 'Please, love. Let's not speak of it tonight. Let me--' His voice cut off when his mouth met yours.

Part of you wanted to pull away, to demand he tell you what happened that put this desperation in his touch, the fear in his kiss, the pain in his voice. But there was that desperation, that fear, that pain and you couldn't stop yourself from reaching, opening to comfort, to reassure. You loved Loki with all of your heart. If he needed you, all he had to do was ask. You gave him all he wanted and more, eager under his hands, diabolical with your own.

'Love me?' he gasped once you were straddling him, connected, your hips driving him out of his mind as you twisted and rocked against him.

When you and he were alone together, all the realms fell away. 'More than anyone in the universe.' You moaned it, your eyes direct on his; you loved the way his hands tightened on your hips the more vocal you were.

Except tonight he looked wild, urgent, like he needed you to convince him. 'Forever?'

You leaned close, leading with your heart. Your body flowed against him in a graceful wave, your eyes soft in the shimmering light from the nebula streaming through your window. 'And always.'

'Do you promise, love?' Loki's arms came around you, pressing you to his chest, his heart clutching in terror even as your skin against his drove him higher. 'No matter what?'

'Oh, love, I promise,' you whispered gently, your hands cupping his beautiful face. 'Even if you got stuck pretending to be Volstagg.'

Loki's heart lifted in wonder when the laugh lifted out of him at the wicked look on your face. Only you knew when and how to tease him when he was most hurt, most insecure. Only you could make a solemn vow into a loving joke. He was reassured even as the laughter eased the tightness in his throat. With a burst of movement, he was tumbling you onto your back, to stroke into you more forcefully, wanting to forget everything but you.

'Ah, love,' he purred in a chuckle, 'no wonder they think I put a spell on you.'

 Loki could have sagged when your eyes released him to turn with a smile upon your audience. He was pleased to hear the enthusiastic applause, gratified that you were as adored on Midgard as you had been on Asgard. He relented, a little. He could not hate a people that recognized your worth.

The memories were still dark in his eyes when you stood and he could have knelt in supplication at the sight of you, not in demure Asgardian garb, but in casual Midgardian clothing that revealed the body he'd never stopped dreaming of. Clad in denim that hugged your legs, reminding him of the way they'd felt wrapped around him, and a sweater in bright, Asgardian gold, you looked strong and capable, like you'd found a power and purpose that had eluded you at home. He wondered now what singing for humans did for you that singing for your own kind had not because your voice had turned to fire and fury, and he could hear a passion that hadn't been there before. 

"Because I get the question on a regular basis," as you spoke you circled the piano and leaned against it, crossing your legs at the ankle and bracing your elbows on top, “yes, I know Thor.” You smirked hen the man in question turned to look at you. “And I'm about to prove it. Get your ass up here, you big, beautiful bastard," you shouted with a growl at the grinning God of Thunder, who responded with a running leap onto the stage to snatch you up into a bear hug. You laughed when he squeezed you tight enough to make you squeak, and the people who'd seen you wreck worlds with your fists snickered at the sound.

 You stared at Thor, your mind blank with horror. Loki couldn't be gone, couldn't have done what Thor was saying he'd done. He'd been upset and hurting the last time you saw him, only a couple nights before, but he'd been himself. He'd left your bed with a kiss the night of Thor's banishment, claiming he needed to speak with his father, and you'd understood. Though you hadn't seen him since, his continued absence from your company made sense with the news of the Allfather's sudden collapse after Thor's exile.

Thor had found you in Loki's rooms the night he’d returned to Asgard, where you'd been waiting. You'd intended to talk to Loki, comfort him, when he was able to finally rest and had snuck in so you wouldn't miss him. You'd fallen asleep in his bed, comforted by his scent. You'd awoken to a new world, a new life and you wanted to climb back in, go back to a world that made sense, a world where your dearest love wasn't a mad monster that tried to kill his brother or destroy an entire realm.

A world where your dearest love wouldn't leave you.

A year later, you stood with your hands in Thor's, your eyes fierce and wild on his. 'I know I'm not being fair,' you said, and though his eyes stayed hard, his hands were gentle around yours. The two of you had become the dearest of friends, grieving the man you'd both loved and lost. Only Thor could truly understand the confused betrayal left to you in the wake of Loki's death. The news that he was still alive had left you feeling only more confused and betrayed.

'You may ask the unfair of me, dear one,' Thor murmured as he lifted your hands to his lips. He was about to leave, the Allfather amassing the energy to send him to Midgard.

'Please, bring him home. Tell him…' You paused, a thousand things both devoted and bitter choking you. You'd save those things for Loki's ears alone. Instead, you looked at Thor's face with shining eyes. Your voice a little angry, you went on. 'Tell him I still love him. No matter what.'

Thor's lips curved at the fury that colored your tone. Loki, if he could be reasoned with, would be coming home to a much less accommodating Y/N. 'If anything can reach him now, it would be you.' His father shouted and he squeezed your hands before letting go. 'I'll tell him.'

You watched Thor run toward the portal of energy His Majesty wielded, and hoped he was right. The moment Loki had let go, deliberately falling from the Bifrost, you'd begun to doubt.

You cupped Thor's pretty face in your hands, looking over the shorn hair, the patch covering his lost eye, the grief in bright turquoise. "Sweet Prince," you said, softly, your old nickname for him falling easily from your lips and making tears prick at Thor's eye. "You've traveled a long way without rest, haven't you?'

The wry understanding in your eyes had Thor huffing out a weary laugh. "Oh, Y/N. You have no idea."

"Come with me," you said, briskly, turning with Thor and sliding your arm through his to lead him back to the bar. Your audience was dismayed but understanding. You’d started your set with a song honoring and mourning Asgard. "Cassie knows how to water an Asgardian. If she said otherwise, she was fucking with you."

Loki had been watching from the back of the room, his gut curdling with jealousy as he saw how familiar you and Thor were with each other. You'd considered Thor family your entire life, but you'd never been close, your preference for Loki leading you to find Thor irritating a lot of the time. He hadn't seen Thor's humility, his remorse after his time on Midgard, hadn't seen the two of you, siblings in all but blood, become friends as well.

When you turned in his direction, he felt the urge to flee, to hide from the bleak amusement curving your lips, the condemnation in your eyes. You and he had never been anything resembling siblings. His feet were planted, however, his knees weak and in the next moment you were next to him, leaning on the bar to tease your Midgardian friend. Your scent wound into his head and left him dizzy as you took three glasses and a jug with no label from the other woman. If Thor hadn't clamped a hand on his shoulder, he didn't know that he would have been able to follow you behind the bar to a small room in the back.

You gestured the brothers to the couch against the wall, handing both of them a glass filled with the mead you'd taught Cassie to make. You still hadn't acknowledged Loki as anything more than Thor's companion, had decided being rude would be less insulting to Loki than pretending you didn't know him at all. Once you'd filled your own glass, you dropped into the chair behind Cassie's desk and propped your feet up. 

"So. What did you do?" Thor's grin flashed at the stern disapproval aimed his way, twisting your eyebrows over a mouth twitching with mild amusement. Then your face softened with sympathy and sadness, and jealousy burned under Loki’s sternum. You'd once shown him all this loving kindness, now you'd barely glanced at him. Until that stern eyebrow lifted in his direction and he felt pinned, like an insect. "How'd you boys manage to set off Ragnarok?"

Part Two: Malice

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#loki x reader #loki odinson x reader #loki fanfiction #loki fanfic #marvel fanfiction #mcu fanfiction #mcu fanfic #short series #pantswrites #ice and moonlight

[aurorawest]

(1) I have mixed feelings about Loki being back in Thor 4. It would be great to have brothers together but firstly, the Loki that would be back is his alternative timeline version not the one that reconcilied with Thor and died in IW. A lot of shared experiences is gone. I'm not really a fan of "replacing" character with their verion from different reality/timeline because there is a lot of lost character development (I have same issue with Gamora being back in Endgame and possibly in GOTG 3).

(2) Also it would be a huge emotional hit for Thor and as much as I trust in Taika I'm not sure the movie would adress it properly. Poor guy lost his closed ones and his people and felt the guilt of loss and failure. Not only Loki would be back, when Thor could started to deal with all bad stuff that happened but probably it would be also not "his" Loki. But again, them being back together again would be great but I'm not sure how the writers handle it.

EG Loki joining Thor in LAT is...not my preference either. There are definitely ways to get around it and bring IW Loki back (see also: my fanfiction, haha, but I can think of other ways). Personally, I think that’s the better way to go, but, you know, I’m not involved in the writing of these films. I don’t like when characters get ‘reset.’ I’m with you on Gamora. I’m a little more forgiving of the idea with Loki because so much of his redemption arc is off screen, and this gives them the opportunity to really show it. But Gamora—what is there to show us again? Her and Quill falling in love...again? That one is a harder sell for me, because she was already one of the main characters.

But still, I would much rather they find a way to bring our old Loki back. Character resets are just kind of...exhausting. This is why I’m so against the idea of Kid Loki in the MCU, incidentally. It cheapens the character’s growth, imo.

I definitely agree that Loki coming back would be a huge emotional moment for Thor and that it could easily go wrong. One of the things I love about Taika as a director, though, is that he seems able to do a lot with very little. He’s able to get really emotional moments out of short scenes and out of humor. Think of the elevator scene in Ragnarok; I believe it’s 45 seconds? That’s a huge scene. And when he goes for the jugular it’s absolutely devastating. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen Jojo Rabbit, but...man, there are some Moments in that movie. We know Tom Hiddleston would act the hell out of such a scene, and Chris Hemsworth can handle it too. So honestly, if there’s any MCU director I trust to give a Brodinsons reunion justice, it’s Taika. I could definitely be wrong though! Maybe it won’t happen at all, maybe it will happen and it will suck. But I just have to hope for the best, you know?

Thanks for the ask!!

#loki #thor #brodinsons #thor 4 #Anonymous

[the-ice-sculpture]

How do you feel about the new trailer?

My honest answer is that I don’t feel great about it, anon. I don’t hate it, but it doesn’t fill me with joy either, which makes me sad because I want to love this show so much.

Firstly, it’s worth pointing out that I’m a pessimist at heart and tend to expect the worst in any given situation. And a trailer takes everything out of context and only gives small relatively spoiler-free snippets, so my opinion of the actual show may end up different to my opinion of the trailer.

(This is going to be a little long because I have a lot of thoughts about it, some positive, some more negative, and someone’s given me an excuse to ramble so I'm taking it)

I like continuity and I miss Avengers-Loki so I was really looking forward to getting to spend more time with that Loki. But the way the trailer presents him with the different look, different speech patterns, less anger/bitterness/sinisterness etc makes it feel much more like Ragnarok-Loki rather than Avengers-Loki, despite how the show seems to take place right after Avengers 1.

Unpopular opinion but I also like Loki’s magic to be more limited, otherwise it raises questions like ‘why didn’t he ever use this power before?’. I prefer characters to not need to power up so much as learn to utilise their own abilities better, and with illusions as his primary magic there’s still loads of fun/clever/tricksy things he could do with illusions that we’ve not seen yet.

I don’t know if it was just the editing of the trailer – and I hate that I’m saying this – but I found the humour... uncomfortable. As in it felt very close to giving me second-hand embarrassment. That’s not to say that Loki and humour can’t work – I love the humour with Loki in Thor 2 for example, but... I don’t know, I like him to be more eloquent and witty, even if he can still lose arguments sometimes, which might be why the ‘I am smart’ line didn’t sit right with me. It came across as petulant. Loki can definitely be petulant, but if he is, I prefer him to do it more intelligently, somehow? I’m not sure how to put my exact thoughts into words on that, but that’s the general gist.

To be honest, I think I might just end up not vibing with the overall tone of the show. I like Loki on the darker/angstier/edgier side with a more serious and emotional storyline, but that’s not what this seems to be. To me, the Loki characterisation we saw in the trailer felt more reminiscent of that interview with Tom Hiddleston sort of playing his hybrid self mixed with Loki on the set of Ragnarok than anything else. I really hope this is just how it comes across with the trailer and not the whole show because I am ridiculously attached to the Loki from Thor 1, Avengers 1, and Thor 2 in particular, and it’d feel like wasted opportunities if they were just brushed to one side.

The show seems to be going for the comedy angle more than anything else. In terms of Marvel drawing in viewing numbers, it’s probably going to work.

I also think major opportunities have been missed with the aesthetics. Why so much brown and muted colours?!? And Loki showing skin with his arms out?? I can’t wrap my head around it. I hope Loki eventually manages to burn the fuck ugly outfits they got him anyway.

On the other hand, I was pleasantly surprised by the shot of Thor-1 Loki on Asgard’s throne. I never thought we’d get to see him and the vulnerability of that Loki does things to my heart. I would love it if we got present-Loki interacting with that Loki (or any Lokis we know from MCU canon, really), but I’m preparing for the possibility of it just being a TVA thing of them just showing present-Loki snippets from his past/other timelines.

I would love the show to have lots of impactful emotional moments. I didn’t see much evidence of it (but that kind of thing is often not included in trailers), but the moment with Loki sat with a woman could have been one. I’m all for Loki making friends, but I’m not keen on the idea of love-interests at this point. Who knows what their dynamic is though, it could be entirely platonic.

I still stand by what I said in a different ask with how I’m going to try giving the show a fair go and not discount that it could be a good show in its own right even if it doesn’t tell the story I want it to. If I don’t end up liking it, I’m not going to endlessly rage-blog about it. I’ve already gone through having to unfollow a lot of people since Ragnarok came out due to not wanting to consume that amount of negativity, so I don’t want to go and repeat the same behaviour myself. The most there might end up being at max is a handful of posts to get any gripes out of my system, and they’d be tagged as ‘#loki show critical’ so people can block them if they want.

In the worse case scenario, I’ll probably just get quiet or carry on doing my own thing fanfic-wise. In any case, I hope to enjoy a bit of revival of the Loki fandom.

#anon #ask #loki show critical #well... sort of #but people who are excited would probably find my thoughts a bit of a downer so I'm tagging it as such #my posts

[enchantedlokii]

We Don’t Have To Be Ordinary

Rating: PG-13

Warnings: language, depression, mention of suicide attempt

Characters: Loki Odinson, Thor Odinson

Mentioned: Odin Borson, Brunnhilde, Bruce Banner, Korg, Miek, Heimdall, Tony Stark, the Other, Thanos, Ebony Maw, Cull Obsidian, Corvus Glaive, Proxima Midnight, Frigga, Malekith, Jane Foster, Amora, the Lurking Unknown, Hela Odindottir

Loki had become accustomed to his new life. New Asgard was different. Not that he minded. He had always loved Asgard, but the place had become more of a prison than home to him since his spiral years ago. He never truly felt safe there after his mistake, and he enjoyed the new start. And as much as he acted as if he hated Midgardians, he enjoyed Midgard. Earth.

For one, Norway was cooler than Asgard. It was more suitable for him, and he didn’t constantly feel too warm like he often did in his old home. It made it easier for him to help with the building process, and he was comfortable most nights with only a window open, a gentle night breeze rustling the curtains and pulling him into a deep sleep.

Then there was the laxity of the place. Of course it could be more the fact that it was Thor who was king now rather than Odin, but he didn’t constantly feel trapped by his duties. Sure, he still had to help out. He was still a prince, although he had questioned his brother if he truly deserved the title now, and he had to make appearances. But on a normal day, he could just relax. He didn’t have to worry about dressing up or donning his armor. Even if he was simply walking the streets, no one was bothered by the more casual attire he preferred. Thor often did the same, so it didn’t really matter all that much.

For a long time, he would join Thor for dinner along with Brunnhilde and Bruce. Sometimes Sif or Korg and Miek would join them as well. Even Heimdall had sat at the table with them on occasion. It was lighthearted. One might even call it fun.

Every night, Thor would invite Loki to stay with him. He had originally intended for his brother to live with him permanently, adding a room furnished for him when it was built, but Loki insisted he would be fine on his own. Occasionally he did accept the request. He always said it was because he was too tired to walk home and told himself it was to please his brother since he went through the trouble of building the room for him, but sometimes he just felt safer knowing that Thor was in the next room.

The Asgardians has been lucky, really. When they had come to Midgard, Bruce had gotten in contact with Tony. He had agreed to help fund the building of the city; both buying supplies and hiring workers to help get the job done faster. He even helped get in touch with the Norway government to make sure everything was completed legally. They hadn’t had any trouble, and every Asgardian knew Norwegian; though it was a bit difficult because of how the language had developed over the years from the ancient Norse that they were taught in school.

What surprised Loki was that no one objected to him being on Earth. Many of the Midgardians he had spoken to knew who he was, and some had been a bit timid, but no one had showed up in an effort to take him away. He was glad, additionally, that no sparkling portals had opened up under his feet again so the sorcerer either didn’t know he was there or had come to his senses. Even the remaining Avengers — they had learned from Tony that the team had split in the past year — knew he was there and had made no efforts to take him into custody under SHIELD.

Overall, Loki thought, things were great. He thought that his life was finally starting to turn around. That was, until the city was completed.

It was a slow change. At first there were still a lot of duties. Loki didn’t kind, really. They were different than the duties he had grown up preparing for, and much less boring. He just had more time on his hands now, often having a chance to sleep in of the morning or sit by the window and read. He didn’t have many books yet, but he was sure that his collection would grow to fill his private library that he had built for himself.

There were days that being alone became too much. He would start to feel lonely and would find himself wondering the streets. Sometimes he would just listen to the noise of the city and speak to those who passed him. He might even entertain the children of the city with his magic if they asked him to. Other times he would visit Thor (and Bruce, who was staying with him until he left for New York) or even Brunnhilde on occasion.

The dinners started to grow less frequent as the work tapered off. Eventually, Bruce left for New York. Loki hated to admit it, but it hurt watching him leave. They had grown to become friends in the past months, and he knew he would miss him. He promised to visit, of course, but it would still take some adjusting.

Over time, Loki didn’t see as much of his friends as he had become used to. He understood, of course. Thor was busier than ever with the duties of being King of Asgard. Brunnhilde was working on a sparring facility and had even mentioned trying to recreate the Valkyries. It was more for the sake of tradition that necessity, but Thor seemed to believe it was a good idea. Loki had plenty to do himself, but his duties were more steady. He never really felt busy, having time to himself nearly every day.

As the days passed, his workload grew lighter. Adjusting to Norway proved to leave room for more leniency, and Loki started having full days to himself. Eventually, he only had to attend a few scheduled events from time to time and take care of scattered legal obligations. He thought that was something he would enjoy, but he was so wrong.

As a child, Loki loved alone time. He spent a lot of time in the library of the palace when he wasn’t busy, or practicing his magic. He preferred solitude over the crowded hallways upstairs. That was before the Fall, however.

It was ironic that he called it the Fall, really. He knew what he was doing that day. He didn’t feel like there was any reason to keep living. Not when his entire life had been a lie. Not after he had tried to kill his own brother. Not after he had made such a huge mistake. He only felt worse when death wouldn’t claim him and he was left to float through darkness for what he later learned would be several months.

It was when his fall ended that he met the Other. The Other, who introduced him to Thanos and the Black Order. At first he had just been glad to not be alone anymore, but that gladness soon faded as the torture began. Because Thanos showed no mercy. He continuously weakened him until his mind was in such a weak state that he couldn’t fight off the power of the Mind Stone.

Even then, there were lapses. He would try to push a way from the mind control. He almost did, at one point. A dazed feeling had came over him during the fight when Thor was speaking to him, telling him to look around at the destruction the Chitauri were causing. He had snapped out of his trance for a moment before it washed over him again, staying in place until the Hulk had smashed him and the blow to his head had knocked him back to reality.

Only for him to go back to being confined to a prison cell. It wasn’t as bad as the Void. At least he had light and saw other beings. Frigga tried to make him comfortable, bringing him books and furniture to make the cell more homely. Still, he knew that he was deteriorating. He had nightmares and flashbacks, sometimes waking up thinking he was in the Void once again before a guard would come into view and he would remember that he was back in Asgard.

Then Malekith killed Frigga. That was Loki’s breaking point. He had known something was wrong. He felt that something was different even before the guard had come to send him the message.

At that point, he went wild. He lost control, destroying his cell. Broken glass scattered across the floor as his lamp shattered. Sharp fragments impaled his feet as he paced, leaving blood on the stone beneath him, but he didn’t care. He welcomed the pain like an old friend.

Despite it all, the one thing he wanted was for someone to visit him. He was alone. He hated being alone. Part of him had thought that Thor would come running as soon as Frigga died, breaking the shield and holding him in the way he had when they were younger. He had hoped that he might be allowed to leave the cell long enough to attend her funeral. But they left him to mourn alone.

When Thor finally came, seeking help to avenge their mother’s death, he saw an opportunity to escape the loneliness. He knew enough magic that faking his death was easy. Physically, it was simple, but it hurt watching Thor grieve. He thought it was a show at first. He was only pretending to care because Jane was there, perhaps. He learned later that he was wrong. That Thor had been heartbroken. Maybe that’s why he chose to stay with his brother instead of leaving the Asgardians after Ragnarok, but he wasn’t sure.

But as he started to be alone more and more, he started to doubt himself. He worried that Thor only kept him around because they were brothers. He worried that the people only tolerated him because he was a prince. He worried that they wished he weren’t there. He worried more than anything that no one wanted him or cared about him; even Thor.

It was those spiraling thoughts that kept him inside. He started leaving less and less. Some days he would never leave his bed. He wouldn’t eat. Some nights he didn’t get any sleep. Other nights he kept waking up from nightmares. He was a mess.

Loki had been in bed for days when he heard a knock on his door. At first he had just rolled over, burying his face in his pillow and hoping whoever it was would leave. Then the knock came again. He sighed and pushed himself out of bed and twisted the doorknob open. He squinted a bit at the light, glancing up to see that it was Thor standing in front of him.

“Loki?”

“Hey,” he replied simply, moving a bit so Thor can come in.

“Are you alright?” Thor asked as Loki closed the door behind him. The two moved towards the couch, sitting down near the edge. “I haven’t heard from you in days.”

Loki blinked up at him, surprised by the amount of concern in his tone. His eye seemed to sparkle with worry as he looked him over, and when Loki glanced over his shoulder at the mirror on his wall he realized he looked awful. He stared for a moment before quickly changing his appearance. “I’m fine,” he told him, turning back. “I just hadn’t got out of bed yet is all.”

“It’s nearly nightfall, Loki,” Thor pressed. “You couldn’t possibly have been in bed all day.”

“So what if I have?” Loki asked, raising his voice a bit as he stood up. He hoped that his brother couldn’t see how tense he was as he started to walk around, making himself busy straightening the few trinkets he had on his shelves. He could feel Thor watching him, but tried to ignore him.

“You missed the dinner,” Thor prompted, causing Loki to freeze. He searched his mind and then moved to the calendar on his desk, making a fist and slamming down on it as he saw the scribbled note.

“Sh*t,” he muttered. There had been an important dinner the night before. One that was meant to be a sort of memorium for his mother. One that he hadn’t wanted to miss. He felt himself falling into the seat at the desk, bringing his hands up to grip his hair as he fought the overwhelming emotions that washed over him at the realization. He could cry later, right now he had to put on a brave face.

“Hey,” Loki was surprised by the softness in Thor’s voice. It was a tone he rarely used. One that he couldn’t remember his brother ever using on anyone other than him. One he hadn’t used in so many years that it made his throat feel tight. He felt a hand on his knee and glanced down to see his brother crouching in front of him. “No one is upset with you for missing it. We’re only worried about you.”

“I’m fine,” Loki told him sharply, bringing his knee up to throw Thor’s hand off. His brother only moved it to his shoulder then, rubbing a thumb over the thin fabric of his shirt. “Thor.”

“I know you, Brother,” Thor said, an air of certainty in his voice. “You are definitely not fine.”

“Why do you even care?!” Loki asked, standing up and pushing his brother away before walking towards the mirror. He didn’t look at it, instead keeping his gaze fixed on the floor. “I’m a f*cking monster, Thor. You shouldn’t even. . . I’m not even your brother.”

It happened before Loki even realized. He summoned energy using his magic and blasted it at the mirror, shattering it into crystals. He froze at the sound, a flashback taking over. Him and Amora in Odin’s vault. A crystal striking the Tuning Fork and summoning the Lurking Unknown. The creature feeding off his fear.

He was pulled out of it as Thor rested a hand on his shoulder. He realized that he was on his knees now, glass cutting through his clothes in several places. He breathed heavily as Thor carefully started to pull them out. “You are my brother, Loki,” he said gently. “You will never be anything but that.”

Loki felt his chest burning as he stared at the broken mirror. He felt his disguise falling, his appearance becoming frazzled. “I should have been arrested,” he breathed.

“Hm?” Thor prompted, putting a hand on Loki’s cheek to force his brother to turn towards him.

“The Godseye Mirror,” he explained, his breathing growing more rapid. “I broke it.”

“Amora broke it,” Thor told him.

“No,” Loki pressed. “She-she couldn’t summon enough energy. I-I put my hands on it and it shattered. She took the blame because she saw how terrified Odin became of me. She took my punishment. I-it should have been me.”

“Loki.”

“I fulfilled the prophecy.”

“Loki, look at me,” Thor said sternly. Loki blinked up at him in response, falling silent as he searched his brother’s eye. He could see nothing there but concern and sincerity. “Did you see the vision in the Godseye Mirror before it broke?”

Loki shook his head. “But we know what he saw. He saw me at Ragnarok.”

“Did he?” Thor prompted, leaning back. “Think about it. . . No one knew about Hela at that point. What if. . . What if he saw her and had to say it was one of his sons so that he didn’t reveal her. Or maybe. . . You two look alike. Maybe he was confused. Maybe the vision wasn’t clear and he saw the black hair and just assumed. We don’t know that he saw you, and even if he did, it wasn’t true.”

“The way he looked at us. . .”

“Loki, what he saw in the vision was a warrior leading the army of the dead,” Thor said. “You didn’t do that, Hela did.”

Loki blinked a few times, searching his memory for that day centuries ago. What Thor said made sense. The pieces didn’t fall perfectly into place.

“And, I mean,” Thor started, catching his attention. “The Godseye Mirror warned Father of the war with Jotunheim. . . Without it, we would have never had you. Surely it wouldn’t have warned us of the war if you were not meant to be here.”

Loki was silent as Thor continued pulling fragments of glass from his skin. When he was finished and Loki hadn’t replied, the elder brother helped him to stand and led him to the bathroom, sitting him down on a stool. “I’m going to go get a bowl and some clean clothes,” he said gently. “I’ll be right back.”

Loki shook his head and grabbed Thor’s wrist, looking up him. Thor looked back down with a worried expression. “Something’s wrong with me,” he choked out, feeling his strained facade breaking. “What’s wrong with me?”

“Nothing is wrong with me you, Loki,” Thor said softly, crouching in front of him and taking his hands. Loki forced himself to look him in the eye despite the tears he could feel brimming in his own. “You’re not okay right now, and there’s nothing wrong with that. There is nothing wrong with you.”

“When I fell. . . Let go. . .”

“I know, Loki,” Thor said sincerely, squeezing his hands. “I don’t think I realized it until I met the others in New York. . . But I know that you were hurting. I shouldn’t have let it get that far.”

“It’s not your fault,” Loki told him, his voice breaking.

“And it’s not yours,” Thor assured him. He hesitated for a moment. “Is it okay if I hug you?”

Loki hesitated for a moment, looking down at his bleeding arms and torso. “I’ll get blood on you,” he murmured.

“I don’t mind,” Thor said with a small smile before gently raising up and wrapping around Loki’s smaller frame. Loki tensed at first, then melted into the embrace, loosely wrapping his arms around Thor. He pressed his face into his brother’s shoulder, squinting his eyes shut to fight against the tears that were flowing down his cheeks now.

“Thank you,” he breathed out, feeling Thor squeeze him a bit at the words. “I love you. I-I never stopped. I’m sorry.”

“It’s okay,” Thor whispered. “I know. I love you too.”

Loki felt a small weight lifting off his shoulders. Because even after everything that he had done. After trying to kill Thor years ago. After New York. After faking his death. After Sakaar. After Ragnarok. After all of that, Thor still loved him. He still claimed him as his brother after knowing that they shared no blood.

Thor carefully pulled away, his hands lingering on Loki’s shoulders. “We’re going to get you cleaned up,” he started. “Then we’re going to go home. I don’t want you to be alone right now.”

“The mirror. . .”

“I can send a guard to clean it up later,” Thor promised. “Will you be okay alone for a minute?”

Loki nodded in response, watching as Thor left the room. He sighed, lowering his head and taking a shaky breath. For a moment, his mind flickered back to the night Amora had been arrested. He sat in his mother’s chambers after the fight with the Lurking Unknown, his knees pressed to his chest as she prepared a spell to heal his bruised ribs.

He had raised his voice at her that night. He had pressed her to tell him the truth, only admitting that he and Thor had been eavesdropping on her and Odin in the process. He had begged her to teach him how to use his magic that night, and she told him that she would. It was the first time he ever remembered her going against her husband’s wishes, and she did it for him. He had asked her that night what would happen to him.

“Patience, my son.”

Her words echoed in his mind almost as if she were there saying it now. A small warmth grew in his chest he felt a faint smile touching his lips. He hated that he missed the dinner in her honor, but he had a feeling that she wouldn’t be upset with him. Not when he thought of her so often. He knew that she was well aware he hadn’t meant it when he said she wasn’t his mother. That didn’t mean he didn’t regret it, but it helped. It helped knowing that she never stopped loving him as her son. That she raised him as her own even knowing the ice that run through his veins. That she believed in him when his father didn’t.

Loki was far from okay. He wasn’t sure he would feel better anytime soon with the darkness that seemed to follow him recently. But he knew that Thor would be there for him. He wouldn’t fight this alone, and in time he would heal. He just had to be patient and all would be well in the future. The sun would shine on him again.

#marvel #mcu #avengers #tw depression #loki odinson #thor odinson #loki #thor #post thor ragnarok #infinity war noncompliant

[littleoddwriter]

Happyhoganon: If the Marvel Cinematic Universe and DC Extended Universe never existed, with both Marvel Studios and DC Films just sticking with making solo films during the 2000's and 2010's until 2020, how different could the movie landscape be without the MCU or the DCEU?

Hi!

Okay, so I’ve been thinking about how to answer this, mostly because I have some thoughts on this for sure, and also because I’m anxious that I might have misunderstood you. Either way, I’ll just go for it and if it’s not what you expected, or wanted to hear, I apologise!

I take it that when you talk about “the movie landscape” you’re talking about the MCU and DCEU’s impact on the entire film industry, marketing, etc. because that’s what I took it for, and what my response will be about for the most part.

First off, I think it’s safe to say that weighing impact alone, the MCU is what I’ll have to talk about the most because the DCEU doesn’t have that impact on the industry and people because it still isn’t mainstream or widely loved and popular, like the MCU is.

Why is that? Well, MCU films, especially the Avengers ones, are crowd pleasing and you don’t have to be a fan to enjoy or understand them (talking from experience here, I’ve seen only a few solo MCU films, and I’ve seen the first Avengers when it came out, and then Infinity War and Endgame, too. I was told I wouldn’t get the last two if I hadn’t seen all the solo films. Guess what; I understood them anyway. They are crowd pleasing action flicks anyone can enjoy and understand; it’s definitely just a lot more fun for die-hard fans of the MCU/Marvel, but they don’t need you to know the characters and constellations inside out). 

DCEU films on the other hand are not crowd pleasing, darker and grittier (like the comics, obviously) and so far, none of their movies are on the critical standards that the MCU is on (speaking of: The amount of people, who like and watch those films; Justice League, I’ve mostly heard bad things about, Birds of Prey - as the most recent example - has been bashed before it was even released, etc.); MCU films don’t get that treatment and are better received for the most part. Not because they’re objectively or subjectively “better”, but because they speak to an entirely different audience. 

What I’m trying to say with this point: The MCU has opened up Comic Book Movies to a wider audience. It has managed to make Marvel, at least, more mainstream and popular. Almost everyone I know either loves Marvel, or has at least seen the “bigger” movies (the Avengers films). Basically the exact opposite is the case for the DCEU; People around me neither like, nor watch them, for the most part. Which is okay, but those are the same people, who prefer Marvel, and again: That is okay! Everyone has their own opinion, and so on, and once more, the MCU does speak to a lot more people, than the DCEU.

Therefore, CBM is one of the hottest and most popular movie genres since the Avengers films have come out. The demand for solo movies for certain characters has also risen (taking Black Widow as the most immediate example, such as the solo TV shows for Loki, Falcon and the Winter Soldier, etc.). That wouldn’t have happened if the Avengers films weren’t so popular and mainstream. (I really hope I’m being coherent here, lol, I’m trying).

It’s also important to note that Marvel Studios is owned by D*sney, and they only care about money, etc. So, seeing how popular all of this is, they of course take their chance to make as much spin-offs and solo shows and movies as they can to get that cash in. 

In conclusion, I believe that those studios have had a huge impact, one more than the other, on the entire industry and CBM themselves. CBM are more popular and mainstream, more actors are widely popular and loved, and the industry knows how to use that to their advantage. Is that bad? No, if one of those actors is in an indie film, it’s actually really great because it is bound to get much more recognition. 

Onto my next point, which is how the shift from solo films (Tobey Maguire Spiderman, Christian Bale Batman films, etc.) to the bigger, teaming-up ones (Avengers, Justice League, Suicide Squad, etc.), has also influenced the entire film industry and the marketing.

The thing about this is that it could very well just be my view of things and not be true at all, but I do believe that my thoughts have a place and aren’t entirely incorrect.

Either way, the Avengers films especially have highly popularised the actors appearing in them. Which goes to say is great for them and the film industry because the industry has realised the shift from “I will watch this movie because the trailer made me want to”, to “I will watch it only because this one actor is in it”. It’s not just a fandom thing, like with myself and how I watch every film my favourite actors are in, but it’s become a general thing. Most trailers for films are very different to how they used to be, if you ask me. Films where the studios suspect that they won’t get their cash back in and make profit, will have, and be advertised with, currenty popular, widely loved and known actors in them. Note, how those actors are mostly from the MCU, and always the same, too.

Take for example Knives Out and MIB: International; Knives Out is packed with popular and well loved actors (Chris Evans - MCU, Jamie Lee Curtis, Daniel Craig, etc.). Pretty much every actor in this film was someone you’d know, and love at least one of them. And the trailer showed me that they knew that. I’ve seen the trailer a few times, and none of those times, I was interested to see what the murder mystery would bring because to me, it came very short. What stuck with me, was who was in it. And it’s safe to say that most people went and watched it for the actors first, the film itself second. 

MIB: International took Chris Hemsworth and Tessa Thompson and advertised the film with their characters’ dynamic, which was very much like what we saw and loved in Thor: Ragnarok between Thor and Valkyrie. So, yes, of course people went to see it for those two first, the film itself second. 

I believe that with films like that, they know they wouldn’t get too many people into the cinemas if it hadn’t at least one actor, or a well loved and received duo, attached to it one way or another. 

In my opinion, that is probably the biggest impact MCU had on the entire industry, because their actors appear in so many films (which is good for them, yes!) and the advertisement has definitely made a huge shift from the film itself to the actors in it. (I hope this made sense).

Anyway, this is what I think about this. I tried to compromise it a little. Hopefully, I made sense and it was coherent enough to get behind what I’m trying to say. I, by no means, intend to put anything or anyone down here. It’s really just my opinion and how I see the impact of these studios, especially Marvel. I also hope it was kind of what you were asking for. If not, I sincerely apologise!

Have a great day/night, cheers! 

#Asks #marvel #the mcu #dceu #film industry #spiderman #batman #the avengers #birds of prey #knives out #mib international

[thelightofthingshopedfor]

lol okay so I dashed off most of this the day of and then kept not posting it because I kept thinking I needed to add stuff, but then I ended up adding more stuff mostly in reblogs instead (should all be under the “my meta” tag if anyone’s curious) and now episode 2 is technically coming out tomorrow night in my time zone so obviously I need to just post this. bullet points of disconnected thoughts, some of which are probably at least slightly outdated by now but whatever, here you go

seems very possible Mobius left the tape with him on purpose because he figured Loki wouldn’t be able to resist looking at it

would have to check the timing but I’m pretty sure he started looking terrified as soon as Thanos came onscreen without really knowing the context (aside from the very basic outline of “it’s been several years and he reconciled with Thor”), which at least underscores that they weren’t buddies--Loki knew something awful was about to happen the second Thanos showed up sadly this is not true, the clip he sees first is him trying to stab Thanos, so...yeah it stands to reason that he’d know it was about to end badly no matter what

other people have mentioned this but I love that we got to see Loki just like...existing?? like I know he’s never been the protagonist before and seeing him as the protagonist has always been one of the things that’s excited me most about the show, but now that it’s here I’m just kind of struck by how HE’S THE PROTAGONIST so we’re getting all these emotions and little gestures and moments when he’s alone that we only got in tiny, sadly easy-to-overlook snatches before (and it also occurred to me that I don’t think we’ve ever seen Loki eat anything, which is something else that might change)

also his projection is fascinating, and so is the fact that he explicitly turned it around on himself, which seems relevant to all the theories about a lot of his other statements (”freedom is life’s great lie,” most of what he said to Natasha, etc.) being things that were drummed into him on Sanctuary rather than stuff he just came up with on his own, so that seems to cover a lot of the stuff he says in Avengers and here

on the other hand it seems unlikely we’re ever going to get confirmation that Bad Stuff happened to him on Sanctuary aside from what we already saw in Avengers, which is frustrating, although to be fair I also wasn’t expecting to see Loki crying about his family in the first episode (and the most I’m really hoping for, still, is that nothing will explicitly contradict the idea, so...we’re good on that thus far, I guess)

so the first half of the episode was...ehhh, I don’t know, but the second half was amazing. I know some people didn’t like that part either, but I felt like...okay, I don’t love him being humiliated so I would’ve preferred different framing for some of this BUT a lot of casual viewers still see Loki as a cackling caricature without having picked up on any of the stuff that very clearly showed otherwise, and this show wants to treat Loki as a person, someone worthy of audience sympathy, so they kind of had to go in hard and fast on that aspect to get everyone up to speed. like, yes, fans who’ve been paying attention know that Loki’s a person, that he’s wounded, that he doesn’t hurt people just because it’s fun for him, that he feels things very deeply, that he loves his family, but somehow the mainstream perception of him has missed like 85% of that, and the show’s just not going to have much impact unless it gets everybody on board with those very basic ideas. in terms of story structure it probably doesn’t make sense for this to be his lowest point, but starting from the bottom and eventually getting somewhere better is fairly standard, so at this point I can imagine tons of ways things could improve for him

yeah I do hate the whole Sacred Timeline thing, see also my posts about how much I loved that Endgame canonically (I thought) established multiple timelines where everything was fine, so yeah I’m pissed about that because it means those timelines were canonically pruned

like I don’t...hate it as a storytelling device? I just hate it for fandom reasons, and I’ve hated it in other fandoms when canon did something that seemed to open things up to all this incredible possibility and then went “actually no, we’re boxing it up again into this one specific Way That Things Happened” and for fanwork purposes it doesn’t matter all that much, I don’t think it’s actually that much harder to do AUs or go “okay well in this universe the TVA doesn’t exist, whatever” (in fact I wouldn’t be surprised if AO3 quickly develops a new canonical “not TVA compliant” tag for basically all Loki fic), but it is annoying that it’s now like “canonically, every AU is Not Allowed”, and if that ends up sticking as the status quo with the TVA considered good guys or at least a necessary evil then yeah, I’m going to be annoyed

HOWEVER

I don’t think that’s inevitable for a variety of reasons

this whole show is going to deal with multiverse shenanigans and so will Dr. Strange 2, so it seems completely possible that the end result could be a status quo of “there’s a multiverse actually and that’s fine” (...although yes, I’ll be doubly annoyed if the end result of this show is a restored multiverse of some kind and the end result of Dr. Strange 2 is condensing it back down to a single timeline)

the multiverse is a long-running comics tradition, which still seems to be the case even after...whatever event it was that collided a bunch of them and tried for a Highlander thing, look I wasn’t really following it and I know some characters ended up in other universes from where they started but I’m pretty sure we still have a multiverse of some kind

almost all the recent Loki-centric comics have focused on questions of fate and agency

Agent of Asgard in particular was about Loki eventually going “fuck you I won’t do what you tell me” and forging a new path (and, okay, it does seem like runs other than AoA have been the most influential here but again we’ve only seen one episode)

Loki, specifically, is an agent of chaos and change, like that’s his whole thing going way back to mythology, because sometimes stagnancy is death and chaos is healthy, and of course myth!Loki (and earlier versions of comics!Loki) is always responsible for triggering Ragnarok, which isn’t just the end of the world but is also a natural, crucial part of a cycle of renewal, and yes the MCU already did Ragnarok but that doesn’t at all mean they can’t play more with those ideas

Tom Hiddleston has brought up this specific point several times in recent interviews, that sometimes chaos is the one thing that's really needed

also, on Jimmy Kimmel the day of the episode, he kind of...planted a seed about the TVA maybe not being uncomplicated good guys because seriously what gives them the right to make these decisions for literally everyone

so at the very least I think it’s completely possible that things aren’t quite what they seem, and that for instance we’re supposed to discover that Mobius is consciously manipulating him to turn him into the type of tool the TVA wants him to be

also “the timeline wants to break free” shows up on a lot of merch, which does seem to indicate a free will vs. predestination theme

I’m not at all familiar with comics!TVA, although I understand they’re considered villains (although to be fair, so were the Skrulls, and at least thus far that’s been inverted for the MCU), but their whole thing reminded me of a few other entities in a way that could be relevant:

the tape running out was like the Norns cutting the thread of somebody’s life

Those Who Sit Above In Shadow in AoA (and also maybe whatever was below the God Quarry in Infinity Wars although I’m less familiar with that)

the gods in Cabin In The Woods, who were also kind of audience proxies in that they really just cared about the sacrifice being entertaining, which kinda seems like the only logical reason for the Timekeepers to prefer any given series of events over another

my personal hope for the series: the Timekeepers are ultimately the Big Bad and the rogue Loki variant is ultimately right in trying to wipe out the TVA (because sure I realize it’s maybe dumb of me but I still don’t want any Loki to be completely a bad guy!!); the major named TVA characters realize they’re the baddies actually and team up with a whole army of Lokis to take them down and GIVE US BACK OUR MULTIVERSE

#meta #my meta #loki meta #loki spoilers #loki series spoilers #loki show spoilers #loki show #loki #marvel cinematic universe

[latent-thoughts]

Hi! What’s up with this hate against the possibility of Lady Loki? Saw a post equating it with people who worship *agnarok. I love mcu Loki & I want a lot of Tom in the series but I would also love a bit of Lady Loki because, well, heck, I’m a bisexual on fire & I adored her in comics. All the while I recognize Gagnarok for the dumpster fire it is... just curious about your take on this?

Ok, so, I think I need to tag @nikkoliferous in this, since this ask is referring to her post.

So, dear anan, the issue in that post is that people who simply want the show to be about Lady Loki are calling those of who don’t want it SEXIST (and what not). Just the way people who stan Ragnarok often attack the anti-Ragnarok lot by saying that they’re RACIST and just want to bang Tom Hiddleston. See where the comparison is coming from?

Now, to further answer your question about Lady Loki. Firstly, there is no Lady Loki hate here. I love the concept of Loki being able to decide which gender he wants to be. Loki may well exist beyond the bounds of gender or sexuality, IMO, since he’s a shapeshifter, and that’s that. No issues there. 

BUT that is not all that there is to his character. In fact, that is not even the focus of his character in the MCU. 

We haven’t even begun to explore Loki’s issues with his heritage and identity, his adoptive family’s abusive behaviour towards him and its ramifications, his existential issues, his mental illness, his treatment at the hands of Thanos and co. and all the resultant PTSD from everything, his self loathing due to the unsavoury things he did, etc. (to name a few). I want all of this resolved first. Not that I have high hopes for it from Disney/Marvel.

Secondly, MCU Loki, as he was introduced to us, has not, thus far, indicated that he has any issues with gender. He has a lot else going on for now (as mentioned above). I don’t understand this obsession with turning him into a woman for the sake of simply turning him into a woman. I’d much rather see a character being established with these issues in the background and then moving forth with resolving it rather than it being brought in as an afterthought. (And yes, I recognize that the comics and myth Loki have been women, but this isn’t the case with MCU Loki. He is a completely different Loki, a different character than those other Lokis. So bringing in comics or myth Loki is for comparison is kinda like comparing apples to oranges).

Thirdly, the Loki we fell in love with, the Loki that gathered such a huge fan following, was Tom’s Loki. Tom painstakingly created this character with Kenneth Branagh (and to some extent, Joss Whedon). Tom is the one whose acting chops gave Loki the depth that made him compelling. I do not understand the appeal of replacing Tom with someone else, when he is the one who made Loki who he is. I don’t want to see some random actor/actress coming in to play Loki, kicking Tom out of the role that he established. I want Tom’s Loki to have a closure with all his issues, because I know that he’d do justice to it the way no other actor can. So yeah, a few glimpses of Lady Loki here and there is fine, but not the whole thing about that. 

I personally feel that focussing on him being Lady Loki would take away from the many unresolved issues Loki has. It’d be merely fanservice and nothing more, TBH.

And as per what we want and what we like, dear Anon, we all have our preferences, bi or het or asexual, but we cannot let that dictate the media we consume just because we want to see a character as per our wants, especially with that character having different issues going on with them that need resolution first. Like, I’d love to see an asexual and disabled character, but I’m not going to demand that Loki be it. That isn’t even close to the issues he has going on, not even close to what his established characterization was. (That’s what fanfic is for--exploring those possibilities). I’m not saying that Loki cannot be bi or a woman, but that it is not the focal point of his character. That’s all.

On a parting note, I’d like to say that perhaps we all need to chill and wait for a proper announcement regarding the show and its cast. I’m still considering the whole Lady Loki thing to be a rumour, as we have received no confirmation regarding it.

I hope that made things clear, Anon.

Love,

~Latent-Thoughts

[delyth88]

Ragnarok deleted scene

Okay, I see why everyone here was talking about the deleted Ragnarok scene now.

It raises so many questions and would have settled a few too, if they’d kept it.

How did they know he was there? It looks like they were just walking past and happened to spot him. With his back turned. In strange old clothes. With his hair all long and straggly. Down the back of an alley. Hmmm...  I can see why they changed that.

I like that both Thor and Loki seem genuinely concerned for Odin.  It’s very clear that Loki had no intention for Odin to end up living on the street.

Odin doesn’t mention Hela is their sister.  Was this not always the plan, or did they find out later?  If so, by whom? I have to assume it was from Hela herself, otherwise why wouldn’t they have known beforehand. I can imagine this would have been a good scene, possibly Hela tearing down the roof to show the old murals to Thor (rather than I’m-just-the-janitor). That could have been quite the twist.

How does Hela get to Asgard if it isn’t via following the brothers along the Bifrost? Does she have her own method of travel?

What’s with her accent?  Was this filmed very early on when she hadn’t quite got that fixed?

I like that in this version Odin and Hela get to speak to each other, even if only briefly.  Their conversation explains quite a lot in a few words, and feels a lot more natural than “hey, I’m-going-to-die-so-I-need-to-tell-you-all-the-important-plot-points-quickly”.

I also liked that they were laying the groundwork for “Asgard is not a place, it’s a people” with Odin here. I assume this would lead to some dramatic realisation of Thor’s later in the film where he adds the second part of the line.  Rather than being handed it by Odin complete in a magical vision. And it’s also complete on it’s own as a premonition of Ragnarok. Nice!

I like the general tone of this scene more than the cliff scene. Although I think if this is all we got to see of Odin that it would have been quite shocking to see him only so briefly and murdered so quickly. I probably would have been frustrated by that. lol  

But I LOVE that we got even a miniscule amount more recognition of Loki by Odin in that scene.  And something with more substance!  “Your lawless nature, the storms within you - you inherited from me. You are my son.” vs “I love you my sons”. It’s more personal, and therefore perhaps not so easily brushed aside, and I think conveys the same sentiment, just in a let straightforward way. I love that Odin is acknowledging something fundamental about Loki, although the ‘lawless nature’ part does follow the rest of of Ragnarok in characterising Loki as always having been misbehaving for the fun of it, which in the context of the rest of the film that was released does raise my hackles a little bit, but on its own, and with the tone of this scene I am tempted to give it a pass.  I feel like this scene was written by writers - the cliff scene... not so much. But I did love “Frigga would have been proud” from the cliff scene... so you know... tradeoffs. 

Loki’s body language when Odin turns to him - he freezes and almost takes a step backwards. And Odin reaches out to him, but hesitates and doesn’t touch him like he did Thor.  I love how that is so much in their characters. Loki seems more distressed here than in the cliff scene, perhaps because this means more to him, or perhaps that is just my imagination.  And then Odin is killed, in a way that I’m not sure he was expecting - at least not like in the final film where we knew that he knew the conversation he was having was his last. In this there’s the added sadness of knowing they didn’t get to say all they wanted to say. Loki looked pretty upset at Odin’s murder, more so than I might have expected. Was he that upset in the cliff scene?  I know a violent death is a different thing than disappearing in a golden glitter explosion, but this looked like he cared.

I love that it appears to show us what one of the the reasons for Thor’s coronation in Thor 2011 would have been.  I have always been curious about why Odin was abdicating (assuming it wasn’t just some temporary regency while he was in the Odinsleep), but this to me suggests there is a power that goes with being the ruler of Asgard and that perhaps it is best wielded by someone who is strong and healthy.  It’s a poignant moment to see it so rushed and without ceremony - the complete contrast to the beginning of Thor’s story. Or Odin’s story in the MCU.  I wonder how that was intended to manifest itself? In the ability to use lightning without Mjolnir still?  Or in other ways also?

Odin can give people visions just Like Loki did - I like this! (I’m never quite sure if Loki’s was a vision he created based on what he found in Valkyrie’s mind, or an actual memory, but I like this parallel, and showing how Odin uses magic just like his younger son.

All in all, I think I prefer this to the scene we got in the end.  But now I get the joy of cherry-picking from both for my own personal favourite version.  :)

Also, may I just say, what a mad week and a half it’s been in the Loki fandom! I’m exhausted!

But loving it!

@sparklegemstone @iamanartichoke @projectprotectloki @fandom-and-feminism @scintillatingshortgirl19 @loptmeer @kumikoseph​ @gia-selene-baczewska​ and anyone else who likes discussing this sort of thing.

#loki #thor #odin #thor ragnarok #deleted scene