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mikkeneko · 3 months

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What we miss when we don't talk about friendship (in MDZS)

I'd like to open with the statement that this is not about shipping -- none of my thesis is to say "don't ship this" or "this ship isn't real." People can and have shipped whatever the hell they want and should continue to do so for as long as it makes you happy. It's not even a question of "sure you can ship it but it's not CANON," because the MXTX canon is wonderfully good at being ambiguous and supporting multiple interpretations.

What this thesis is to say is that some of these themes and motifs to explore are about friendship, and they don't tend to get talked about much, because people are mostly focused on the romantic and sexual dimensions of a dynamic. Romantic and sexual dimensions are great, but they don't annihilate or even subsume platonic dimensions -- yes, sometimes you can be a lover and a friend, but sometimes you can just be a friend and not a lover and that's no less important. As a post I saw recently said which stuck with me -- don't remember the poster, alas, but it was something in the vein of -- "it's not about the intensity of the relationship, but the flavor of it." Platonic character dynamics can be just as obsessive and consuming as romantic dynamics, they can be discussed and analyzed separately without needing to invalidate romantic and sexual dynamics.

So! That disclaimer aside, let's talk about: FRIENDSHIP IN MDZS, and what we miss when we don't talk about friendship as a dynamic in this story separate from romantic and sexual interest. Friendship shows up repeatedly in this story with its own sub-plots and arcs and undercurrents and hazards separate from the romance that's going on, and it's mostly going on with the Lans.

Part 1: Lan Xichen and friendship

A cornerstone of this analysis has to do with a meta post I read very early on in the fandom about the Lans when viewed through a Confucian lens. Lan Qiren in particular is a very, very Confucian character, and he raised his nephews to those traditions and values. The pertinent one here is the topic of the "Five relationships" which outline the relationships that a man of authority can expect to have throughout his lifetime: self to ancestors, self to descendents, self to authorities and subordinates, self to marriage partners, and self to friends. Each one comes with a set of strictures and requirements which when added up combine to a world that is very, very emotionally taxing and extremely short on interpersonal and emotional support. He is expected to obey and submit to guidance from his seniors, but he can't ask them for help. He is expected to lead and govern his subjects, but he can never be wrong or show weakness or doubt. It's especially important, I think, that Lan Xichen is raised to expect that even any romantic relationship he might have (read: marriage to a woman) would not actually be emotionally supportive to him in any meaningful way; it would be another set of obligations to uphold, another place he would be expected to be remote and poised and never show weakness or ask for help.

The exception is friendship. Friendship is the only relationship structure Lan Xichen can have in his life that has any hope of actually being nurturing and emotionally supporting to him, a place he can let down his guard and ask for help with the expectation of receiving it. It becomes very clear from very early on that friendship means everything to Lan Xichen as a character. He enters the story with a strong, supportive friendship with one of the only true peers a man of station can have (Nie Mingjue) and it's clear that this has formatively set his expectation of what a friendship can and should be. Lan Xichen really wants to be the Friendship Is Magic guy. He believes that friendship is the best way to solve problems, and that everybody would be able to solve their problems if only they had a friendship like his, and that belief is a lot of what runs him into a meat grinder later in the story. He thinks that Nie Mingjue and Jin Guangyao are capable of maintaining a friendship post-war, and does not understand why they cannot, and his attempts to friend-matchmake the two of them ultimately lead both to disaster.

Part 2: Lan Wangji and friendship

The header says Lan Wangji, but this is actually about Lan Xichen again, and about Wei Wuxian. A pretty common joke in the fandom is that Lan Xichen is "the #1 WangXian shipper," that he recognizes Lan Wangji's sexual and romantic attraction to Wei Wuxian from very early on and supports him in pursuing such a relationship. It's a nice joke, but I think it misses the mark, because the looming specter of their parents' disastrous and traumatic marriage means that Lan Xichen would never approach the idea of his brother entering into a romantic relationship so cavalierly. (Lan Qiren, in some ways, had a clearer notion of what shape Lan Wangji's interest in Wei Wuxian had the potential to be than Lan Xichen did, perhaps because he doesn't have the same obsession with friendship; if he has any close friendships of his own, we're not shown them.)

Lan Xichen is not encouraging Lan Wangji to have a romantic summer fling. Lan Xichen encourages his association with Wei Wuxian specifically because he thinks Lan Wangji needs friends. Not just in the sense of any parent or adult wanting their child to make friends, but specifically in the context of these restrictive hierarchical relationships that hem in their world. Lan Xichen is afraid that Lan Wangji will be alone, and emotionally starved, and have no one he can ask for help or rely on, because that is his experience of a world without friendship. (Lan Wangji, of course, is not in the same position as Lan Xichen because he has Lan Xichen to rely on.) Lan Xichen wants Lan Wangji to have the same kind of friendship that he himself has with Nie Mingjue, and he thinks that Wei Wuxian has the potential to be that kind of friend. That is the context in which he encourages their association, and tries to arrange for them to have time together, and to become closer; not as a potential romantic partner but as a steadfast emotional and logistical support through Lan Wangji's adult life.

If Lan Xichen knew that Lan Wangji would fall in love with Wei Wuxian (had already started to,) I'm not at all sure that he would have encouraged that. In pretty much any arc past the Lan Lectures, he doesn't, both because Wei Wuxian stopped being a good candidate for supportive friendship (he's clearly got too much of his own shit going on) and because he realizes that what is developing in Lan Wangji bears very little resemblence to his own relationships. He might not outright try to sabotage the relationship but he's clearly worried about its potential to bring disaster on Wangji -- and he's very correct to be worried, as it turns out.

Part 3: Lan Sizhui and friendship

So, All Of That Happens; Wei Wuxian dies, Lan Wangji is laid low for years and seems poised to grieve for the rest of his life; Nie Mingjue dies and takes Lan Xichen's support with him. Now we come to the present day, and the present day has Lan Sizhui and Lan Jingyi.

Let's take a moment to step back and ask from an analytical perspective: Why is Lan Jingyi, as a character, in the story? Assuming that in a novel as polished as MDZS, each element is included for good reasons. Why is Lan Jingyi in the story and why is he Lan Sizhui's best friend? In the new world we're introduced to, the Lan are already represented, and very positively represented by Lan Sizhui. Lan Jingyi provides a convenient avenue for both exposition-dumping and sass -- saying the things that everyone else is too polite to say -- but we could have gotten that through another character (Jin Ling also plays this role) or introduced another Junior who isn't Lan, like Ouyang Zizhen. Why is it important to the story that Lan Sizhui and Lan Jingyi are friends?

The Juniors in general represent hope for the world to change, hope for the new generation. In Lan Sizhui and Lan Jingyi, we see that the terrible loneliness that drove their seniors to disaster in the previous generation, is averted. Lan Sizhui and Lan Jingyi have a friendship that is close and true, and we are never given reason to doubt it. Their priorities are aligned; it's unlikely that Sect politics or personality conflicts will ever drive them apart. They have what Lan Xichen craved: a friendship that will support them through tragedy and disaster. Their friendship stands to demonstrate that in the new generation, things will get better.

#untamed meta #lan xichen #nie mingjue

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eastofakkala · 1 year

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While rewatching The Untamed, it was really interesting to me to see just how hard Jiang Cheng was trying to get his brother back when he’d just returned from the Burial Mounds. And he was trying so many different methods of getting through to him: acting like everything was normal/teasing him, trying to accept what he was like now (to a degree), giving him more affection, just straight-up telling him that everyone was worried about him, asking him question after question, scolding him...only to keep getting shut out, brushed off or lied to. Not blaming Wei Wuxian here, just to be clear! Trauma does Bad Things to people and he needed therapy and a break from the war instead of more war! And not saying Jiang Cheng handled it perfectly, either. He’s also traumatized and is at the moment the youngest Sect Leader of the Four Great Sects and trying to keep everything together. But in hindsight, it makes the straining of their relationship make more sense. It can sometimes hurt more if you feel like you’ve tried everything and it’s all failed.

#The Untamed #CQL Meta #This is E20-21 FWIW #Jiang Cheng #Wei Wuxian #I both love and hate how realistic the Jiang family really is #As a dysfunctional family #Not cartoonishly but realistically #I've felt uncomfortable watching them at times #Untamed Meta

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blackteaaddict · 1 year

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xue yang has this iconic moment when he’s captured and tied up at chang’s manor and says ‘I didn’t steal, I just murdered’ and it’s subversive and such a funny thing to say when you’re captured red handed at a crime scene, the fact that he would object at being accused of some petty crime while happily addmiting to mass murder.

but this time my thoughts actually went past the usual ‘hehe he’s such a good boy your honour he’s no thief excuse you he has standards’ and I thought some more about it (honestly I’m surprised I haven’t microwaved this moment in my head ever before)

the way he so happily admitted to all that murder, the thing is he doesn’t need to defend himself, he doesn’t need to deny his culpability, he knows he has a powerful sect to back him up. he doesn’t care if someone knows it was him because he knows he can get away with it now, just like chang cian got away with abusing him. (and he put so much work and effort here, he did such a good carnage, why would he deny his authorship? he knows he deserves a good grade in mass murder and revenge which is both normal to want and possible to achieve and he’s proud of his work as he should be because he fucking aced that assignment)

but it also made me think about how as a homeless poor street kid he was possibly forced to steal to survive. and sometimes got caught and beaten for it. and other people could hurt him and get away with it. but now he’s grown and leveled up on the ladder of power and he doesn't need to steal anymore. actually he’s on that other side now, he has the power to hurt others and get away with it.

and we like to laugh that this statement is a sign that he has some morals after all, but when thinking about it more seriously I think we can assume that xue yang doesn't care about morality, definitely not at this point in his life. I don't think he sees theft as more or less immoral or whatever, he just wants to emphasize he didn't do it for money, he doesn't need to do this anymore. he has a nice fulltime job as a young genius demonic expert in one of the main clans and he can do what he wants with no consequences (at least for now and he's gonna have fun until he can). he doesn't care that much about social position except for the safety and protection that comes with it. he doesn't care for titles, he despises the gentry, he is and always will be the boy from kuizhou but he's not weak, small and helpless anymore and that’s what counts.

#the untamed #xue yang #untamed meta #my posts #ugh yes i guess i kinda mixed cql canon with novel canon?#i often do that with xue yang and especially with his pre-yi city arc #because while i love the idea of him working for wens #a lot of the things make me just go ???????

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the-forever-obsessed · 2 years

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I think the reason I'm so okay with Lan Jingyi being the XiCheng kid is because of the thing where nephews usually take after their uncles. And it shows even in the untamed:

Jiang Yanli x Jin Zixuan -> Jin Ling -> passisonate and stubborn like Jiang Cheng

Wei Wuxian x Lan Wangji -> Lan/Wen Yuan -> a kind mediator like Lan Xichen

so it sits that:

Lan Xichen x Jiang Cheng -> Lan Jingyi -> mischievous and brave like Wei Wuxian

reason #53/??? why XiCheng aka "pair the spares" is becoming more and more of a good ship to me.

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miles-of-heart · 2 years

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Every time Wei Wuxian's family dies, Yiling is involved. It's where his parents went missing (and where JFM found him). Where he sought refuge after the massacre of his sect family at Lotus Pier. It's where his found his new family with the Wen remnants - and then where they were killed.

It's inextricably linked to both family and loss for Wei Wuxian.

#i don't know what to do with this idea #but i keep getting stuck on this idea #Something something Yiling is both loss and salvation #also where he lost his golden core #but gained the power to win the war and save his sect #wei wuxian #Untamed meta #mdzs meta

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eohachu · 1 year

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re: the cql poll. i've said this before and i'll say it again: song lan's death was and still is the most evil murder i've seen in a drama. i've seen a lot of unjust and devastating character deaths, but this one tops everything else in question of execution and emotional damage. a murderer who has no means to find out who he murdered (his lifelong partner) and a victim who has a way to communicate who he is but chooses not to because the murderer wouldn't be able to live with this burden. and the villain who abused both of them, who specifically used their disabilities to his own advantage - who specifically mutilated song lan in order to have him eliminated by his own lifelong partner, just to keep him around as a puppet, with xiao xingchen, again, having no way to find out and with song lan, while constantly being painfully aware of what happened, having no means to communicate any of this to him.

and with a teenage girl being an immediate eye witness to all of this.

#. like - the levels of evil here #. i still remember clear as day the first time i saw it #. i don't have the words to describe what i felt #. i was just. genuinely in shock #chen qing ling 2019 #untamed meta #r.txt

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symphonyofsilence · 5 months

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I'm never getting over the symbolism of Jin Guangyao's coffin being sealed under the weight of Meng Shi's fallen statue! As if His fate had already been sealed by his mother's profession from the beginning and no matter how high he climbed it would always come to this!

And finally, he got crushed and buried under the weight that had been on him all his life. When all he ever wanted to do was to cherish his mother. He built a temple for her and made a statue of her as a god but in the end, he ended up in Meng Shi's coffin sealed by Meng Shi's statue, in what was once the brothel in which they both were abused.

#jin guangyao #meng yao #meng shi #mdzs #Cql #the untamed #mo dao zu shi #chen qing ling #the grandmaster of demonic cultivation #my two cents #mdzs meta

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jetkast · 28 days

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the flavors of gay thoughts and repression in wangxian are the most fun

LWJ: loud gay thoughts on the inside; enormity of my desire disgusts me; oh god he's hot oh no; repress repress repress; no one will know so long as I don't make eye contact with anyone ever again, especially xiongzhang; my purpose in life is to be pure and noble, not be gay do crime; peace and tranquility, meditation and silence, once familiar, now empty, but at least they remain; I will simply be absent of desire as far as anyone is concerned and it will be fine;

WWX: gay thoughts but for the meme, they are universally true thoughts, regardless of gender, ok, shidi; if I flirt with everyone, no one will know that one man gets the True Flirt, including myself; if I keep moving and talking and laughing then I can live head empty no thoughts as fate intended; when you think about it, like when you really consider, like I'm just saying; look at me look at me look at me, need it need it need it; did I mention it was for the meme because it seems you are taking it seriously; why are you tying that, you won't even listen, what will you do to me~~

#mdzs #mxtx #wangxian #mo dao zu shi #the untamed #meta #gay thoughts #lan wangji #wei wuxian #lan zhan #wei ying #comphet #kind of #just vibes basically

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khattikeri · 3 months

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one of my favorite things about mdzs is that for how heavily its plot involves politics of classism and misogyny... even the characters most directly impacted by it can't and don't free themselves from it. literally the closest exception is mianmian.

meng yao being the "son of a whore" wasn't some sort of commie awakening for him that led him to wanting everyone to be socially equal. he played the political game, climbed the ladders, sucked up to and backstabbed and murdered people, including other prostitutes who actually had nothing to do with how he and his mother were treated at the brothel he grew up in.

he put in so much extra excessive effort for even a fraction of the same respect that members of gentry cultivation clans got. and he did deserve to be treated more humanely! but he feeds into the exact same system that created him, leading to his own undoing.

his efforts were for a fragile upward mobility that was never going to hold up. he never surpassed his origins nor did he empower others in similar stations, because the society he lives in is not one that would accept that.

the second he got caught and all those crimes exposed, he was scapegoated to hell and back, replacing wei wuxian as society's terrible one-sidedly evil boogeyman overnight.

speaking of not-quite male gentry, i think it's interesting that wei wuxian explicitly doesn't try to climb the ladders in BOTH lives, knowing full well that anything he does will be punished just for the sheer fact that he is wei wuxian.

wei wuxian is scolded for giving intelligent and correct answers in school. lan wangji does the same and is praised.

wei wuxian occasionally lounges around with fellow disciples and is punished. jiang cheng does the same and mostly escapes.

wei wuxian refuses to carry his sword around in public (after losing his golden core, which nobody knows) and is scorned as an arrogant upstart. nie huaisang has been doing the EXACT SAME THING for YEARS and nobody bats an eye.

unlike jin guangyao, wei wuxian knew subconsciously from the start that his acceptance was superficial and that he could be cast out any time. when he was 10 and recently taken in by the jiangs, he canonically would not eat or use "too much" food and water because he thought they'd find him a nuisance for "wasting their things" and kick him back out.

now away from just the classism, yu ziyuan is a proud and strong noblewoman in a society that belittles and derides women for everything they do. her strong cultivation doesn't matter. she's victim to the vicious rumors of her husband loving another woman who is strong like her but apparently had a more likeable personality.

it doesn't matter even if jiang fengmian didn't cheat or that wei wuxian is wei changze's son with cangse sanren; yu ziyuan can't bear with the humiliation of herself (and by extension her children) not being "good enough". she's ridiculed for "failing" in that one duty as a wife, mother, and woman.

she lashes out and takes out that anger on everyone present for years, giving her children lasting trauma and also being a key element in how the jiang family and yunmeng jiang sect are effectively wiped out at the hands of the wen clan.

madam jin doesn't even have a name outside of the fact that she's married to jin guangshan. i don't even remember reading anything that indicates if she's a strong or weak cultivator, or what, which in itself proves that to most people, it doesn't matter. she's "just" a woman.

of course she's angry at her husband's affairs and all the bastard children they bring in. but she also can't do anything about them, so she lashes out at the few people she can: servants. non-cultivators, probably. those very same bastard children.

shoutout to meng yao getting shoved down a flight of stairs at age fourteen, because if madam jin tried that move against her husband instead, it would make her lose even more face, which as a noblewoman she'd never do.

and that's not getting into how jiang yanli is consistently sidelined for being physically weak.

that's not getting into how mianmian was actually a good cultivator, but was mocked by everyone around her for trying to stand up for wei wuxian when everyone was turning on him. how everyone scoffed at luo qingyang's words as "just some lovesick woman" who "obviously wants to marry or bed him since he saved her".

luo qingyang is the only one of these characters who HASN'T died. she didn't play society's games like jin guangyao. she didn't dig her heels in confidence of her own abilities like wei wuxian.

she didn't bitterly lash out like yu ziyuan and madam jin. she didn't gently accept it like jiang yanli.

she just LEFT.

she married an ordinary merchant and cultivates separately from mainstream cultivation society, and therein found her own peace and happiness.

mxtx doesn't bother with particularly class conscious or feminist vocabulary to hand-hold readers into understanding these disparities, but that choice highlights them & the deeply entrenched politics of their society even more. i really love it.

#keri chats #mdzs #mo dao zu shi #long post #mdzs spoilers #im novel only but still tagging.#the untamed #cql #yeah yeah everyone's written meta addressing this aspect of the story BUT I THINK ABOUT IT ALL THE TIMEEEEE #maybe i just don't get to read a ton of books often; esp not ones that mirror my own culture. but it's just so. soooooo. augh #the fact that the setting itself enables so much of the tragedy in mdzs... which is true of all tragedies but STILL...#this isn't even getting into qin su and the power imbalance w her and jgy post-reveal... man.#man. so much going on here. man #THIS POST IS MESSY AND BARELY EDITED BUT IF U READ IT. ILU

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amorphousgenderlesscryptid · 1 year

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Having finished yet another rewatch of The Untamed, I am once again consumed by the Xiyao madness.

Meng Yao is coocoo for Cocoa Puffs. We know this. Throughout the story we watch him devolve into madness as he gets revenge on the whole world for his lifetime of abuse. He feels like he’s owed power and respect in return for his trauma. He starts off being absolutely devoted to Nie Mingjue. He goes above and beyond, does everything that’s asked of him and more, puts up with the rest of the Nie clan abusing him, because he wants Mingjue’s respect so badly. He gets run through with a sword to save Mingjue’s life. And he still gets thrown out of the Nie clan even though he was willing to sacrifice his life for it.

Now, as we later find out, he did in fact murder the Chief General in cold blood. He expects to get away with it because of how much he’s sacrificed for Mingjue. He expects mercy in return. But he doesn’t get it. He tries to prove himself (again) by risking his life (again) as a double agent during the Sunshot Campaign. That’s not enough for Mingjue either. So Meng Yao goes over to the Jin clan. He’s the perfect son, basically runs the clan for his father. And he’s still treated like a servant. He’s not even allowed to hold his baby nephew. This is when he goes fully bonkers and starts having people murdered left and right.

And then – Guanyin temple. Lan Xichen is tricked into stabbing him. The temple is collapsing around them. Meng Yao knows this is the end. And he says to Xichen, “Die with me.”

Now, I think this was Meng Yao being his usual manipulative self. He wanted Xichen to have to live with the guilt when he abandoned Meng Yao to his fate, like everyone else has always done. But Xichen does it. He stays. And at that moment Meng Yao realizes that Xichen really loves him. Loves him enough to die with him.

So Meng Yao does what might be the only genuinely selfless thing he’s ever done: He saves Xichen’s life. And he accepts his own death, having finally gotten the only thing he’s ever really wanted. In the end, Xichen’s love saves them both.

#sir that is my emotional support war criminal #meng yao #jin guangyao #lan xichen #xiyao #the untamed #untamed meta

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mikkeneko · 1 year

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I kinda feel like we should talk a little bit more about the way that Jiang Cheng and Wei Wuxian are consistently enablers for each other. Because the thing is, it’s both of them. It manifests in slightly different ways but it’s very consistent on both sides of the equation. They both egg each other on in ways that frequently cross the line from helpfully supportive to, yes, enabling.

Wei Wuxian is constantly encouraging Jiang Cheng to loosen up, lighten up, be less dutiful, and have more fun. Harmless during Yunmeng summer school, less so in dangerous situations like the Qishan discussion conference or the Wen Indoctrination camp.

Jiang Cheng’s enabling isn’t as obvious because he’s always telling Wei Wuxian not to do things, but he doesn’t enforce it in any way. He never offers any consequences and he is always attempting (if not always succeeding) to intervene when other people impose consequences on WWX. He makes excuses for WWX during the Sunshot Campaign. He tries (unsuccessfully) to shield Wei Wuxian from Madame Yu’s punishment. He tells Lan Wangji, on multiple occasions, to butt out of Wei Wuxian’s life because if Jiang’s head disciple wants to commit atrocity and blasphemy then that’s Jiang business. He berates WWX for drinking all day but, again, never actually does anything to enforce this. Wei Wuxian, known theater goth, proposes an elaborate charade that will result in his continuing to stay with and protect the Wens, and Jiang Cheng says OK and goes along with it.

This is not to say that if Jiang Cheng had been less supportive of WWX during their first life, if he had cracked down on him about using the modao or tried to force the issue at the burial mounds, things would have turned out any better. Probably not. If I have a point here, it’s just to highlight another stellar narrative example of how good and bad traits are entirely contextual. The way a positive character trait -- in this case, supporting your brother through right and wrong -- can also flip over into disaster when it goes unchecked.

Jiang Cheng and Wei Wuxian are both enablers.

#untamed meta

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lgbtlunaverse · 3 months

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What kind of saber is baxia anyway?

I love my bloodthirsty princess of a cursed blade, and in my heart of hearts i am nothing but a sword nerd, so i've been extremely fascinated by Baxia and how we know frustratingly little about what she actually looks like!

I mean, look at bichen, right?

Bichen in the donghua:

Bichen in the drama:

They're clearly not exactly the same. The scabbards are different, and the guards have a different shape. But these are recognizably different iterations on one theme, right? Thin jian with a white grip silver guard, light blue tassel and silver mounting accents on the scabbard.

Now this is baxia in the donghua:

And baxia in the drama:

????????

THAT'S A COMPLTELY DIFFERENT WEAPON

it doesn't stop there either, the audio drama is kind enough to give us ANOTHER COMPLETELY DIFFERENT BAXIA

pretty! But how is that he same sword??

And when we go back to the novel, we get very little information on her appearance other than the fact that her blade is tinted red with all the blood she's absorbed. Which none of these designs incorporate.

This is not a dig on the designs itself, they're all quite gorgeous in their own right and i'm going to spend a while discussing all of them! Because isn't it fascinating how, since we know little about novel baxia beyond "saber" all of these designs ended up so different? What kinds of sabers are these, anyway?

So, a chinese aber, aka a "dao" (刀) just means a sword that has only one cutting side. As opposed to a jian, which has two.

You can see how that leaves a LOT of room for variaton.

I've actually seen some people get confused because Huaisang's saber in the untsmed is thin and quite straight, making it superficially resemble the jian more than drama!baxia, but it is still clearly a saber!

See? only one cutting blade!

This, to me looks a lot like a tang dynasty hengdao

credit to this blog for providing his image and being a great source for all this going forward.

TANGENT: during all this I found out the english wikipedia page for dao is WRONG! Ths is what they about the tang hengdao!

So that sounds like the hengdao was called that during the sui dynasty, but then, after that, started being called a peidao, right?

WRONG

I LOOKED AT THE SOURCE THEY USED AND IT SAYS THIS:

IT WAS CALLED THE PEIDOU UNTIL THE SUI DYNASTY, AT WHICH POINT IT WAS CALLED A HENGDAO. Which would carry over to the Tang dynasty. This was the source wikipedia linked! and it says something else than they say it does!

Anyone know how to edit a wikipedia article?

ANYWAY

BACK TO BAXIA

Since we're already at the drama, let's look at drama baxia: She's also straight! the general term for straight-backed saber is Zhibeidao, but that's a modern collector's term, and doesn't really say anything about which historical kind of saber baxia could be based on. Another meta i found on the drama nie sabers already went on some detail here.

I'm gonna expand on that a little: The kinds of historical straight-backed sabers we see resemble the hengdao a lot more than they do baxia. They don't go to their point as harsly as she does (she's basically a cleaver!) and they're all way skinnier.

No, my personal theory is that instead of being based on any kind of historical sword, drama!baxia is based on a Nandao.

I mean, come on, look at it!

Baxia!

The Nandao... isn't actually a historical sword. It was invented for Wushu forms. There's a really fascinating article about its conception, but that's why the swords in the images look a little thin and flimsy. Wushu swords are very flexible and light, they're dance props, not weapons to fight with. There are actual steel versions of Nandao, but they're recreations of the prop, not the other way around.

So That's one way in which Baxia differes from the Nandao: she's actually a real weapon. The other is that, as you can see above, the nandao has an S-shaped guard. Baxia doesn't. She's also much more elaborately decorated, of course. Because she's a princess.

Now: audio drama baxia!

This is much easier. with that flare at the tip?

Oh baby that's a niuweidao, all the way!

There are more sabers with that kind of curved handle, but the broad tip is really charcteristic of the niuweidao. The Niuweidao is also incredibly poplar in modern media, often portrayed as a historical sword, but it originated i nthe 19th century! And it was actually never used by the military!

That's right, the Niuweidao was pretty much exclusively a civilian weapon! That makes its use here anachronistic, but so is the nandao, and considering that the origin story of the Nie is that they use Dao intead of Jian because their ancestors were butchers, portraying them with a weapon historically reserved for rebels and common people instead of the imperial military is actually very on theme!

Finally, Donghua/Manhua baxia. These two designs are so similar I'm going to treat them as one and the same for now.

Unlike both previous baxias, The long handle makes it clear this baxia is a two-handed weapon, though Nie Mingjue is absolutely strong enough to wield her with one hand anyway. Normal rules don't count for cultivators.

Now, this is where things get tricky, because there are a lot of words for long two-handed sabers. And a lot of them are interchangable! This youtube video about the zhanmadao, one of the possible sabers this baxia could be based on, goes a little into just how confusing this can get. This kind of blade WAS actually in military use for many centuries, making it the most historically accurate of all the baxias. But because of that it also has several names and all of those names can also refer to different kinds of blades depending on what century we're in.

So here's our options: i'm going to dismiss the wodao and miandao, because these were explicitly based on japanese sword design, and as we can see manhua baxia has that very broad tip, so that won't work

(Example of a wodao. According to my sources Miaodao is really just the modern common term for the wodao, and the changdao, and certain kinds of zhanmadao... do you see how quickly this gets confusing?)

Next option: Zhanmadao.

Zhanmadao stands for "horse chopping saber" so... yeah they were anti-cavalry weapons. meant to be able to cut the legs and/or necks of horses. That definitely sounds like a weapon Nie Mingjue would wield. But if you watched that youtube video i linked above, you'll know the standardized Qing dinasty Zhanmadao looked very different from earlier versions. It was inspired by the japanese odachi, and more resembles the miandao than its ealrier heftier counteprarts.

Earlier Ming dynasty Zhanmadao on the other hand were... basically polearms. the great ming military blog spot, another wonderful source, says these are essentially a kind of podao/pudao (朴刀) which looked like this

Now that blade looks a lot like baxia, but the handle is honestly too long. Donghua!baxia straddles the line between sword an polearm a little, but while zhanmadao have been used to refer to both long-handled swords and polerarms, this was undeniably a polearm, not a sword.

If you want to know what researching this was like, I found a picture of this blade on pinterest-- labeled as a "two-handed scimitar"-- and the comment section was filled with people arguing about whether this was a Pudao, Wudao, Zhanmadao, Dadao, Guandao, or a japanese Nagita.

So... that's how it was going. This has kept me up until 2 AM multiple times.

However! Thanks to this article on the great ming military blog I found out there have historically been pudao blades with shorter handles!

Specifically, Ming dynasty military writer Cheng Ziyi created a modified version of the pudao to work with the Dan Fao Fa Xuan technixues-- aka technqiues for a two-handed saber, which would alter heavily influence Miaodao swordmanship-- thereby, as the article points out, essentially merging the cleaver-polearm type Zhanmadao with the later two-handed japanese-inspired design.

This is the illustration for the Wu Bei Yao Lue (武備要略) a Ming dynasty military manual

This blade shape in the illustration doesn't match Baxia exactly, but since it's a lengthened Pudao-like blade and we've seen above that those can match Donghua Baxia's shape, i'm gonna say that calling Baxia a Zhanmadao with a two-handed grip isn't all that innacurate!

However, because all of these terms are so intertwined, there are a dozen other things you could call her that would be about equally correct.

To show that, here's a lightning round of other potential Baxia candidates:

Dadao (大刀)

Which are generally one-handed and too short. However!

Another youtube video i found of someone training with a Zhanmadao that resembles baxia a little also calls it a "shuangshoudai dao" (雙手带刀) shuangshou means two-handed, and while 雙手带 seems to refer to a longer handled weapon, when looking for a shuangshou dao or shuangshou dadao (双手大刀) we find a lot more baxia-resembling blades like here and here

I also found that, while the cleaver-like Dadao is strictly a product of the 20th centuy, since dadao just means big sword or big knife, it has been used to refer to loads of different weapons! Some people could've called the zhanmadao and pudao "dadao" during the Ming dynasty as well.

Another potential baxia candidate that mandarin mansion classifies as similar to the later dadao (though longer, as seen in the illustration below) is the "Kuanren Piandao"

Which piqued my interest because this diagram classifying different tpye of Dao:

Claims that a Kuanrenbiandao (diferent spelling, same sword) is the same as a modern day Zhanmadao.

(So once again, all of these terms are interchangable)

Another opton Is the Chuanmeidao/Chuanweidao (船尾刀) below you can see a diagram, based on the Qing dynasty green standard army regulation, of blades all officially classified as types of "pudao"

The top middle is the Kuanren Piandao, and bottom left is the Chuanweidao.

Both of these have a lot of baxia-like qualities.

So there you go! live action baxia is based on a Nandao, audio drama baxia is based on a Niuweidao, and Manhua/donghua baxia is some kind of two-handed Zhanmadao/Pudao/Dadao depending on how you want to look at it.

I'm honestly surprised no one has made the creative decision to portray Baxia as a Jiuhuandao, aka 9 ringed broadsword yet.

I mean look at it! Incredibly imposing. Would make for a great Baxia imo. (@ upcoming mdzs manga and mobile game: take notes!)

#mdzs #mdzs meta #nie mingjue #baxia #cql #the untamed #long post #I HAVE SO MANY TABS OPEN. FEEL MY SUFFERING #I understand that asking a gigantic region with thousands of years of rich history and many different subcultures #to have one standard naming convention is basically impossible #But could they do it anyway? for me? 🥺#i also want to buy one of these... so bad #or even just a plastic trainer so i can practice the techniques #but i know that once i start buying swords i'm not gonna stop until my money runs out #Being a sword nerd is a very dangerous not phyisically but for your wallet

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korpikorppi · 7 months

Text

Guys, I just now noticed one more interesting little detail in the Untamed!

You know the names of the buildings in the Cloud Recesses: the lecture room/hall Lanshi (兰室, Lánshì, "Orchid Room"); Yashi (雅室, Yǎshì, "Elegant Room") – the reception room/hall; the spirit-summoning room/hall Mingshi (冥室, Míngshì, "Underworld Room" or "Room of Darkness"); Hanshi (寒室, Hánshì, "Frost Room") - Lan Xichen's residence; and Lan Wangji's Jingshi (静室, Jìngshì, "Quiet Room"), right?

The character used to write the "shì", room, in the names is 室, here seen in the Lanshi and the Yashi (the names are read from right to left):

As a side note, the Lan seem to use the traditional rather than the simplified characters, so the "lán" in the Lanshi is written with 蘭 rather than 兰.

BUT. Not so in the Jingshi! Instead of the 室, a slightly different character is used for the "room":

My trusty dictionary did not know the character in question, so I started to look at what was different:

As such, the character 凶 (xiōng) means act of violence, murder, evil. An evildoer. A murderer. And as Lan Xichen told Wei Wuxian, we know who lived in the Jingshi before it became Lan Wangji's residence: "It is the place where our mother lived in the Cloud Recesses".

So, it seems that when the house became Madam Lan's prison, the character was changed to reflect her crime, denoting the place as the quiet room of a murderer. Accentuated by the reversed colours of the sign:

This has probably been quite self-evident to anyone who actually speaks and reads Chinese, but was quite an oooff! to me as I realised. One more killer detail in CQL 😟.

And while I was at it, I just had to check what it says above the gate (seen here when LWJ returns home with the Emperor's Smile):

As far as I can read it, the characters are 影竹堂 (yǐng zhú táng), which I freely translate as "Bamboo Shadow Court". An apt name for the place.

Hopefully it offered some solace to Madam Lan.

And oh, I just have to add! As Hanshi is the Sect Leader's residence, Lan Xichen is living in their father's house, while Lan Wangji is living in their mother's. And the two houses are more or less identical, down to the furnishings (just check the scene where Lan Xichen confronts Wen Chao and his muddy boots in ep8 vs. The Wangxian Scene in ep43). So did Qingheng-jun have the house built for his wife, identical to the house she was not allowed to live in? That is quite plausible, in universe. Out universe, they probably had only so many buildings to shoot in :).

#jingshi #madam lan #lan wangji #cloud recesses #theuntameddaily #all the details they put in #the untamed #cql #cql meta #translations and explanations #my translations #so they might be questionable #random late night thoughts #korpikorppi #mine

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