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fantastic-nonsense · 4 months

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im soso curious, i need to know... why is tim a child of apollo? bless u for not going with fanon<3

[referencing how I decided who the Batfam's godly parents were in my PJO AU WIP]

People like to sort him into Athena because DC has spent the last few years emphasizing how smart he is and how he's better at the more “cerebral” and detective aspects of the job. But Tim’s most prominent pre-reboot traits are not actually his detective or tech skills: they’re his reckless, impulsive bravery, his ability to analyze and think very quickly on his feet in dangerous situations, and his "power of friendship" idealism.

He's a people person; it's one of his greatest strengths. Tim is like...physically incapable of going somewhere and not making at least one friend while he's there. Hell, when he ran off to travel the world on his "fuck you, I'll find Bruce on my own" trip he still managed to pick up his own little crew of assassin friends along the way. Making connections and talking to people and relying on others for help is how he successfully navigates being a hero, as he himself notes on multiple occasions:

"Did you think I was going to run all around the city, desperately trying to save everyone all by myself? I'm not Batman. I have friends." -Red Robin #12

Tim loves his family and friends, and losing so many people he's close to within such a small timespan sends him off the deep end in multiple ways (trying to clone Kon, fighting Dick to get the Lazarus water, isolating himself from everyone, fighting with Dick and running off to find proof that Bruce was alive on his own, etc).

At his core, Tim is an idealist who becomes a hero for no other reason than a) a broken man needs help and a broken family needs mending and b) if Dick won't go back to being Robin he might as well do it, because someone has to be Robin. He sees what will happen if Bruce stays on the path he's on and says "no. I'm not going to let that happen." He's a hero because someone has to help, and he's able and available to do so. He doesn't work on cold hard logic and facts. He works off of gut instinct and then uses his big brain to go find facts and logical conclusions that support those instincts.

Tim was never going to be an Athena child.

So I started thinking. At first, I wanted him to be a Hermes child; it seemed right to frame his parentage around being the child of the messenger of the gods given how he became Robin. But that's not really him, either. Apollo, within the scope of both classical mythology and the PJO-verse's depiction of him and his children, fits him better.

While modern culture tends to zero in a lot on Apollo's status as the god of music, poetry, and the arts (for good reason), Apollo in classical Greek mythology was first and foremost known as the god who (for lack of a better term) helps his people. He's the god of the sun, of light, of medicine and healing, of prophecy, of truth.

Tim comes into Bruce's life at a time when Bruce is at his absolute lowest point. Jason is dead. He's estranged from Dick. He's failing in his mission to save Gotham. He's highkey passively suicidal. And Tim takes it upon himself to fix that. And he does it by being a solid, bright, stable presence in Bruce's life and an extremely blunt, truthful messenger of the future he sees: Batman needs a Robin, and if Bruce doesn't have one he's going to die.

And I didn't abandon his intelligence in the calculations: Apollo is also the god of rational thinking, order, and knowledge, contrasting and working in harmony with Dionysus (the god of irrationality, chaos, and passion). He was also known to be the god whose job it was to interpret the will of Zeus to humankind, which I thought was appropriate for a boy who spends quite a lot of his time being the living communication translator between Bruce and everyone around him.

So. Apollo child.

............also I thought it was funny to make the god of youth the father of the boy DC refuses to allow to age.

#I also have a thread of connection running between Apollo being the god of plagues and Tim getting the Clench in Contagion #but that was kind of an aside to the whole thing #tim drake #tim drake meta #dc comics #bruce wayne #batman #my writing #batfam pjo au

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ev-arrested · 4 months

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Nightwing, at his breaking point: I can feel my bones and it’s fucking nauseating.

Raven:

Beast Boy:

Starfire:

Cyborg:

Nightwing: woah! 🙂 That was kind of a lot! 😄 Sorry guys. Anyway, on our next mission, we’re going to skin Slade alive—

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arguablysomaya · 4 months

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jason texting dick the morning of Christmas

(insp. by this)

#this thread made me laugh my ass off #shut up somaya #batfam #dcu #dc universe #batfamily #batman #incorrect quotes #incorrect batfamily quotes #incorrect dc quotes #incorrect batfam quotes #jason todd #dick grayson

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psalmsofpsychosis · 1 month

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"#Batman resists his own insanity so it spreads to e v e r y t h i n g around him"

You can't just say this and not elaborate in great detail. PLEASE elaborate oh my God. I do agree but I want to hear every single thought you have about this topic.

Btw, I'm the same Anon who asked -- or not really asked but more so talked -- about Batman and Joker's soulmate sort of bond.

AND WHAT DO YOU MEAN WITH "COMBINING JOKER'S HEAD WITH BATMAN'S BODY"???????

I was thinking along the lines of the concept version and how they could never be satisfied like this, united in one body. What is the result of mixing chaos and order? What is the result of mixing the act of forgetting the past and fixating on it? What do you get through combining the ideology of making everything matter and taking all meaning away?

The result is that the pure concepts become stained and dull, pushed away from their original function, losing their purpose to oppose each other.

Becoming one entity is the act of becoming complete (concepts being stained) and losing the thing that made them them. Batman and Joker were never meant to unite in this way with overlapping voices, finishing each others thoughts and sentences and it SHOWS. I'm in love with their grotesque obsession with each other that borders on love and punishment. Their desire to win and conquer the other for good but never being able to because losing one side takes away the purpose of the other.

That's why I'm so, so, SO disappointed with how the Batman Who Laughs turned out. Where are my identity crises? Plural, because this could never be an one-and-done kind of deal. They became OneTM, inentionally or not, but BeforeTM, they were always wondering what it would be like. Batman could try to get closer to Joker's mental state but never fully experience it, same with Joker. But now they are OneTM and then what? Batman is just the Joker with Bruce's memories and face. I can't begin to describe how boring that is. That's like if DC made a "Deadpool kills the Marvel Universe" story only they used Joker instead of Deadpool.

Do you see my vision? Can you feel my pain? I wanted to psychoanalyse that asshole with my amateurish psychology knowledge but they only gave us a watered down Joker who makes other Batmen less interesting upon contact. WHERE ARE THE IDENTITY CRISES?? WHERE IS THE DIFFICULTY IN MAKING A DECISION?? WHERE ARE THE LENGTHY MONOLOGUES ARGUING BACK AND FORTH OR CONTRADICTING EACH OTHER ALL THE TIME??? The Batman Who Laughs is basically Two Face but without the wall seperating Harvey and Two Face. Joker!Batman should be unable to do anything or constantly switch between Bruce and Joker or save one life and then turn around and kill it. Like, where is the complexity? Why the hell is that guy only a murder machine?? That was neither Joker nor Batman's whole purpose??

Tell me all your thoughts, my friend, while I'm here spinning in circles and going insane. I'll never get out of this alive, you'll still find me ruminating on this on my deathbed.

I swear, if you give an absolute banger of an answer again, I'll come and start living in your walls.

Have a nice day!! :)

ANON LOVE OF MY LIFE, i'm shoveling all the insides of my walls out as we speak, you can move in by Wednesday morning—

Like, the way i felt every single word you said in my bones. You are so right, and there are a couple different points here and it's gonna get longer than usual so i'll separate each thought thread to avoid drowning in lé brain soup.

• Re: batman resisting his own insanity, i feel like i have simultaneously talked about this in 7986 different ways and haven't said anything about it at all 😂 possibly most of it has been discord ramblings. Long story short, the spine of his narrative to me is that he actively resists his own humanity and in extension of it, his evil. He wants to be good. But there's also immense psychological/emotional/physical price we pay whenever we make these kind of choices; whatever we disown and banish to our subconscious, we project out into the world and unto the people around us. The load you refuse to carry will be carried by the people around you, because at the end of the day /someone/ has to carry it, it doesn't just disappear into ether. So, in a way, for Batman to remain good, to remain a hero, someone else has to be bad. The extent in which Batman keeps his goodness "pure and untainted" dictates the horrors created around him— and particularly the creation of Joker. I say creation because the existence of Batman as a concept absolutely necessitates the existence of Joker. In a way Batman does create him, and it's true that with Batman gone Joker and half the evil in Gotham would be gone too, not because Batman is an evil presence— but precisely because he disowns his own evil.

And the thing is, in the specific context of Joker, it has become this almost loving, adoring symbiotic relationship; Joker has willingly shaped himself to fit the outline of an evil that Batman needs to defeat, he has become the sin that Batman can overcome so he can stay a saint. I actually have a draft on this that i never finished, a meta about how all the coloring choices in Joker's design eerily resemble the different color stages of a wound and the bruising after, how Batman almost feels like Jesus with Joker as his side wound, Joker being the price he pays and the pain he goes through for his martyrdom in order to stay pure, for his idealogy to have any form of meaning and significance, Joker being his very own holy suffering.

We fundamentally understand reality in form of contrasts, internal ones, external ones. As you very well pointed out, without an innate sense of contrast, we cease to have any form of coherent grasp on different concepts, and they start to sort of become noise, they become nothing. Would you truly understand what a day was and grasp it as a concept if it wasn't followed by a night? So like, what i'm saying is, people around Bruce/Batman become what he needs because they love him and they want to help him keep his narrative, the structure of his psyche intact. They help him stay 'him' by taking on the burden of what he doesn't want to be, he subconsciously shapes them in the image of what he needs to uphold his identity as a good person. This is why Alfred becomes Joker to save him, this is why Selina is the more socially acceptable pretty Joker that Bruce can actually marry and bring to his family, this is why Joker and Batman feel like they can never escape their narrative, their roles and their performance. It's the reason the moment Batman lurches to kill The Riddler in "the war of jokes and riddles", Joker stops his knife with his hand. It's their defined roles, and the greatest act of love that noone except Joker would show him. Joker says "I'm the sacrifice. I'm the evil, i'm the one who kills, i have made this choice so you can make yours. You're the good one. If you become evil, it renders both your efforts and my sacrifice meaningless, and i can not allow that to happen." And it's a truly fascinating dynamic really, for all that Joker has and hasn't done throughout the Batmanverse history, when it comes to Batman he's irredeemably selfless. Everything he does regarding Batman is to keep Batman's sense of goodness and heroism intact, and in this context he's more pure than him. Everyone around Batman wants him to kill, perhaps rightfully so, they mean well. But Joker says "i'll bear all the unbearable evil so you dont have to, and we both acutely understand that without my existence you mean nothing. I will be the monster so you dont have to." And honest to god there's a heartbreaking affection to this, something noone else will ever be willing or want to offer to Bruce, not to this extent.

in 'the war of jokes and riddles' Bruce tells Selina that "what separates him from utter evil is a hand on his knife. Joker's hand." like bro, he knows. In a deeply twisted and gutwrenching way Bruce knows that noone loves him the way Joker does.

• Re: combining Joker and Batman's heads and bodies, i was thinking.... two concepts maybe?? 👀 one is more like the Dullahan myth, in which Batman loses his head but he isn't carrying it, Joker steals it. And then Joker loses his head and Batman has to keep it and he's forced to use it. It'd be an insanely fun concept; the Dullahan myth can be interpreted as the idea of death of self by supposedly losing all that would make you human; your thoughts and memories and logic, etc. Except that you still have a heart, and a body, and they're not exactly cooperative. It'd be fun to have Joker's mind trying to tame Batman's heart and body, each fighting and singing their own song, same for Batman. A version of the myth has Dullahan carrying a human spine in one hand, and i mean, the possibilities are endless!

But also another concept would be: two frankenstein monsters lmaooo, same sense of discordent internal landscape, same sense of ideological tension and conflict, but also someone's gotta [tw mentions of gore] chop chop them and sew their body parts together, and that can be another interesting element added to their fucked up dynamic ✨️ it can also be Joker as Dr Frankensten and he sews parts of himself to Batman in order to save him!

• Re: Batman Who Laughs, oh girl (gn), i have nothing to add that you haven't already said more beautifully than me. There's so much emotional nuance and complex philosophy that could've gone into that concept, it's certainly one of the hardest Batman story variations to pull off, and weirdly enough, the people who dont directly aim for "Batman becomes Joker/Joker becomes Batman" stories often tell a better more intricate tale about that transformation than the people who straight up shoot for the concept. One of the things that always sends a chill down my spine is the ending of Batman: Europa, in which Joker is terrified and screaming as Batman laughs and lurches for him; that's the dynamic, that's the Batman who laughs, and the most unsettling part of it is that, Batman doesn't change. He doesn't have to. On a core level he is quite frankly a bit fucked up, it's not a stretch for Batman to be evil, and that's why his goodness is meaningful. Cue Nietsche's quote, "Of all evil I deem you capable: Therefore I want good from you. Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." Batman is not a good guy entirely, and that makes his goodness a conscious choice with so much weight and worth and significance. I dont think a lot of DC people understand this.

With Batman Who Laughs, the name kinda sums up the take unfortunately; it's a superficial interpretation that falls flat on its own face because the writers couldn't be assed to explore how a chemical combination of Batman and Joker's narrative would unfold. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ as with any potent chemical reaction, the mixture is highly unstable and unpredictable, and that's the fucking fun of it. There's gotta be tension. I do think Batman and Joker can very well mix, i do think they can make a seamless fusion, but i dont trust any canon DC writers to handle the characterization well in a way that doesn't bore you out of your fucking mind. You gotta make a new person and you gotta capitalise on the core components both Batman and Joker share; their incessant sense of idealism, their need for purity, their volatile emotions and their aggression, their need to individuate from their context and deviate from the norm, take the third way out narrative wise, their philosophical and intellectual bend, their immense grief, their need to be oh so special and different 😂 they actually have a whole lot in common, this is why they're perfect enemies!

But yeah, writing that personality fusion is very hard because it's such an emotionally complex context and most DC writers have not felt a single emotion in the past 35 years aflhdtdhlf

Anyway yep i love your brain so SO much Anon, hope you have a wonderful day ❤️💕 and dont forget to tell me what ya think!!

#the way this ask had me scrambling through my desktop blog to find posts and then i realised that i dont like my desktop theme #so i overhauled the whole theme while i was writing this lmaooo #anyway yeah. goddd i need to finish that jesus/side wound meta one day.#it's a bit above my paygrade because i thought i'm pulling one single thread but turns out it was a whole 9 yard yarn pile #with three cats entangled in it #but the gist is more or less the same #but also ''what do you get through combining two idealogies of making everything matter and taking meaning from everything''#i need to gay lay down a bit. maybe die a little #i think they're not a single identity in this framework; they're cycles. you understand them as they continue each other #the way spring sprouts from the belly of winter; winter spreads from the spring's belly; they be like dat #anyway Anon you're out here working all my 2.5 braincells overtime godbless ❤️💕#Batman #Batman meta #Batjokes #Batjokes meta

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andi-o-geyser · 6 months

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the girls who get it get it PLEASE I am begging for you to listen to this song for either of these three feral men in their mid-20s on a grief and rage fuelled revenge quest with a gun and a pack of smokes

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gullable-fool · 6 months

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There is so much happening in Batman comics right now I’m gonna have an aneurism

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thy-valhallen · 1 month

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Guys... who owns the copyright to Batman's appearance and branding in-universe? Who makes merch and allowed BatBurger to exist?

It's not the Justice League. We all know Batman runs the business side of the League, and he would never let them put his face on special Bat-Cherrios. So who is it?

#batman #dc #dc comics #dc universe #batburger #i'm unraveling the threads #they dont want you to know #running theory is that Jason Todd owns it now for the lolz

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jadenoryuu · 11 months

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DP x DC x ...

So, I know that we collectively despise the Rolling Terf (and I totally agree), but! If we proclaim the death of the author of the HP series just for this prompt, are y'all willing to hear me out? 🥺

Here's the thing: before being introduced to the Batfam and Bruce's adoptions problem, for me the Ultimate Children Adopter was Molly Weasley.

Never leave an unattended child in her area, otherwise they'll be adopted and receive a knitted sweater for Christmas.

Despite her lacks (like trusting Dumbledore's opinion too much and allowing Harry to get back to the Dursley every summer, favoring Ginny over her other children, etc.), her motherhenning is top tier and her hospitality is the best...

And may the Ancient have mercy on the soul of anyone who threatens her children, because she won't. (I still cackle like a mad creachure every time I remember that the only swear-bomb of the series was dropped by her while fighting Bellatrix! (⁠≧⁠▽⁠≦⁠))

Does all of this ring a bell? 〜⁠(⁠꒪⁠꒳⁠꒪⁠)⁠〜

Now! For the actual prompt:

Should Bruce and Molly meet because of Danny (either Fenton or Phantom) shenanigans, what would happen?

Would they fight each other over his custody or become a combined monster of love, care and "look at our boy wrong and you'll end as a teapot then shipped to an undisclosed location"? 👀👀

#the dragon speaks #danny phantom #batman #harry potter #dp dc crossover #dp x dc #dp x dc x hp #fic prompt #let's collectively ignore JKR #she doesn't deserve any space in this thread #let me know what you think #bruce wayne #molly weasley #danny fenton #surprise adoption #awwwwwwww yisssss #this thought came randomly while I was reading a dp x hp crossover

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dcbinges · 1 month

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Detective Comics #39 (1940) by Bob Kane, Bill Finger & Jerry Robinson

#bruce wayne #batman #detective comics #bill finger #bob kane #jerry robinson #40s comics #40s #dc #dc comics #comics #thread

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serialreblogger · 1 year

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the thing about the joker

is that - well, even canonically, he’s not actually “insane.” in the most canonical version of his backstory (bc there are many conflicting incarnations, but this one is the touchstone for a lot of later canon), he was part of a street gang before falling into a vat of Nondescript Toxic Waste that damaged his melanin production and That’s It. he supposedly “lost his mind” after seeing his reflection, which is absurd on many levels. no. he’s not “insane.” what he is, is an angry white boy.

the thing about the joker is that he exults in his own uncontainability. He laughs, because all of gotham - all the world - is built to be his playground. the only lunatic thing about him is the lunacy of ~Society~, to borrow from the joker’s own playbook; the lunacy of the joker lies in the world that grants him power: in the inheritance of loss: in white privilege, and what it means for everyone else.

“to prove a point.” those were the joker’s exact words, when he shot and paralyzed Barbara Gordon. she asked why: he laughed. “to prove a point.”

because that’s all he ever does. he hurts people because he can. and because all the power in the world can’t save him from getting hurt - and isn’t that just peachy?

because the thing about the joker is that he can get hurt. he has been hurt. but he has so much more capacity to harm than to be harmed. he is immortal. he and he alone will never have to face the consequences of the hurt that he inflicts on other people.

so then: why not hurt them? misery loves company, after all.

the joker is the embodiment and end result of our own social system: the madness of the exception: the laughter of the white man: the imprecation to smile, as he kills you.

(no one ever says it, i find, but it’s still true: barbara deserves to kill him.)

and who, then, is the batman? if the joker is the yin to his yang? if they’re two sides of one irredeemable coin, if they represent the “balance” of an unjustifiable system - who is he if not another white man?

because he is. Bruce Wayne is a white boy born into unspeakable privilege and forced to endure suffering anyway; who copes with his suffering by taking it out on others; who copes with his suffering, not by taking advantage of the world as it is, but by attempting to reshape it. to make it in his own image - as if it isn’t already his, as if claiming it further will crush out the pain.

the batman is the benevolent oppressor to the joker’s malevolent one. he changes nothing, in the end. two privileged white boys with their own respective navel-gazing grudges - where, after all, lies the difference between benevolence and malevolence?

because they are not “chaos” and “order.” not really. They are laissez-faire laughter and law. Joker exults in the disease of the system, Batman seeks to treat its symptoms, but neither of them will ever change anything about the root cause. because they may have suffered the faults of this system, but they still benefit so much more from it as it exists. Uphold it or break it, neither of them wants to change the law.

but the law is only as good as the people it’s made to protect. and who does that law protect, really?

waylon jones is, in one issue, explicitly depicted as Black. between that and his skin disorder, there has never once been room for his character to be any more than a monster: king croc is, always, a character to be violated and brutalized, over and over and over and still - always - written as the villain. (he tried so hard to scrape out a place for himself, so many times, in so many incarnations, and each and every time he finds himself relegated once more to the sewers. he will never be anyone’s king. there is no place under the sun for people like him.)

victor fries only ever wanted to save his wife, and a capitalist mogul decided a few extra numbers on his eight-digit paycheck were more important than the people whose lives depended on that money. fries’ body was damaged to disability by that choice, left without the resources to find a cure for his wife, and he robbed banks because there was no other option available to him. we seem to have forgotten, or maybe never really understood, why that matters. why a desperate man trying to save his life and that of his loved ones under the crushing gears of capitalism is a villain, and the one who stops him is our hero. why, under the law batman upholds, a bank vault and a CEO’s hoard is worth more than a life.

poison ivy just wants to live, too. wants a life not defined by the devastation of her body, of the beings that exist as extensions of her, a life where green and growing things are not commodities to be plowed up and poisoned and destroyed for the sake of another man’s profit. these are villains; they are written as such. these are their motives.

who does batman fight for, really? who is our hero, this emblem of our law?

is he our hero? ours, the broken and bleeding members of the world he claims to protect?

who does the law protect, except him - him, and the joker?

#i'm having another Moment over batman friends #this is not a bruce wayne hate post #for the record. there is so much to be said in a bruce wayne hate post about child abuse and authorship and diversity of canon #but this isn't about bruce wayne. it isn't even really about the joker #i'm stuck on batman. batman as a story. batman as a myth #because the myths we tell and the threads that run consistently through them despite the multitude of tellers and times -#those say so much more than people give them credit for #who batman is - who his villains are - what those heroes and rogues represent? that *matters.* on a level wholly distinct from comic fandom #because one of the few things that remains true of batman across his many incarnations and authors and settings and media #is that: he stands for the law. (except for all the ways in which he breaks it.) his only role is to catch the criminals #when he loses control and begins dispensing Punishment he must be drawn back from the edge. because that is not Batman #Batman is Jim Gordon's only deputy. Batman is the myth of the Good Cop #and the joker? the joker is batman without the law #this too is one of the few strains that carry through nearly all tellings. the joker is never his opposite:#the joker is him without a direction. without restraint. without limits. without control #and these things say a lot about the world beyond batman. about the storytellers behind him. who - to them - is a hero? who is human?#and who is a monster? the joker is a monster because he is lawless. because he is ''mad.'' because he looks Wrong #bruce wayne is a hero because he is lawful. a dark hero because he walks very close to the line of that law - but lawful still #and what is that law? what law do these storytellers see fit to uphold? for which characters does that law do any good?#which characters explicitly harmed by that law are disposable? which are villains by birth?#the fact that someone made the creative decision to depict king croc as Black in a 2008 graphic novel wherein he went cannibal -#the fact that the issue where babs was assaulted and paralyzed was also the issue in which batman sat down and sympathized with the joker -#that all of these villains are neurodivergent or queer-coded or intersex or disabled or Disfigured or just plain not white -#it says a lot. not just about the comics; about the world in which so many writers have crafted this consistent narrative of heroic cruelty #the world that accepts these as our villains. these as our heroes. it says a lot. and it *matters.*#batman #dc comics #linden writes an essay #linden's originals #linden in the tags

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roobylavender · 7 months

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had talia not been character assassinated do you think she and bruce should have gotten back together?

no. i hate to use the word "phase" bc that would seem to diminish the importance of what's between them, which is something that will always persist esp as their continued dedication to the same causes and their respect for each other remains. but i do think realistically bruce should be a phase in talia's life. at least in terms of consummated romances specifically. i do love the idea of them remaining allies, close friends, and co-parents, but i think allowing talia to walk away from ra's and bruce in the first place has to stand for something in the long term. before talia went her own way i think it was easier to imagine a potential future where she ended up with bruce bc it felt like the desirable option. she was in this very debilitating position where she had little to no freedom to act on her own desires and goals, the embodiment of which was none other than bruce. so when you frame her situation pre-tower of babel, obv wanting to be with bruce was appealing. he was as much the love of her life as he was a means of escape and freedom and talia having the scope to then act on her own desires. i think that's what subsequently makes dc #750 (or is it #570. i never get the numbers straight and i'm too lazy to check) a really clever issue, actually, bc it acknowledges that and the fact that bruce once again setting her free bc of his love for her actually gives her the courage to step out on her own where she never has before. the fact that she has the option to go back to gotham with bruce and presumably have everything she's ever wanted with him, but she leaves it anyway, is a really huge deal. it's a statement. she loves him, but not more than she loves herself. and sure, what talia puts herself through during lex corp era certainly begs the question of whether her version of loving herself is really viable or in any way healthy, and i would love to see bruce help her recognize that she's not alone and that she doesn't have to do it alone to prove that she's capable. all of this i agree with. but i don't think that really means she and bruce have to fall back on their once-imagined dream of playing house. even if talia did find methods of going about her work that were mentally healthier i don't really know what'd be in it for her to play house with bruce in gotham. bc that is what it would have to be, for their relationship to work in any way. bruce will never leave gotham and son of the demon didn't need to explore that issue bc it was never going to get there but trust that corny as the line about naming the baby thomas or martha was it was reflective of a reality: gotham is bruce's entire life. no matter where he goes, no matter what he does, no matter who he works with, in the end he will always belong to gotham. and i simply do not think that would ever work for talia bc there is so much more she is capable of. while her vision is aligned with bruce's her scope of access and ability is entirely distinct of his own and there is so much more that she can do aside from relegate herself to gotham (hence why lex corp as an arc makes so much sense, bc it capitalizes on that scope). and yeah every superhero couple is kinda crazy and they have teleportation and shit but idk i don't think it's really a relationship for each party to go on long missions with ill-defined parameters that give them the worst sleep schedules known to man and occasionally they share a bed. it really isn't. and that's something that bruce and talia have to live with. their duty is always going to come first even though they both have a passion for civilian life. for talia to be in a relationship again she would have to stop having the liberty of being able to go wherever the work carries her and for bruce to be in a relationship again he would have to have the equivalent of a robin-wife. neither of these things is ever going to happen. so

#outbox #i realize this sounds somewhat hypocritical bc then it's like. but what about damian! wouldn't the same apply to him!#and idk i don't think it would. your kid is different from your lover #obv i imagine talia would try to be around for damian as much as possible #but as i've discussed a lot of times even that i think would be tricky for her. she was willing to say she lost her baby #bc she thought if she didn't the world would lose batman #she's like. craaaaazy dedicated to her work so yeah i do think she'd try to coparent with whatever capacity she could #and her love would be genuine and overflowing etc etc #but at the end of the day she's not going to settle in gotham solely for the purpose of raising him #or for the purpose of appeasing bruce's notions of pathetic puppy dog romance #her liberty is too impt to her #ironically enough this is funny to talk about in context of that batman & robin panel from yesterday bc like #had they not character assassinated her that's really how it might've gone. at least imo #like it's a shame they had to resort to all of these racist and orientalist tropes about her being an abusive mother #to somehow justify why bruce should be the resident parent instead #when you literally could've just followed the thread of talia valuing her independence #versus bruce being desperate for any remaining semblance of normal civilian life like it's an oxygen tank and he's losing air #not only would that have been realistic it would also have carried nuance and allowed insight into bruce and talia's psyches #and more than anything. it would have been funny #but i DIGRESS. tldr yes talia would coparent but even that would be with certain limitations #i think she's the kind of person / mom who like. leaves her love everywhere but can't necessarily stand where she leaves it. yknow #like i could even bring jason into this #i really do think she'd do everything in her power to try to get jason to break from the red hood persona and heal etc #and she'd have immense affection for him #but she's not going to sit and play house and babysit him once she's free and once she knows he's free too #she's very big on personal accountability #so she'd check up on him and the love would be there but like. the bigger picture would always interfere #anywayyyy. thank you for the question i love to ramble about this stuff LOL

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