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#also just a lot of fun analysis in here and very much an understanding of the limitations of the format

mammonsrockstargf · 2 months

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a/n: hi fellas, i have hypersomnia, which basically just means i fall asleep a lot so here’s the brothers with a very sleepy mc.

At first, the brothers are kind of confused. Demons don’t need as much sleep as humans and they’re baffled by your excessive sleeping. Do all humans sleep so much? Why are you always flaring your teeth at them? (They later learn that this is called yawning.)

Lucifer initially thinks you’re lazy and it honestly bothers him. Simultaneously you remind him of a certain brother, so he also lets many things you do slide. He'll just sigh when you fall asleep 45 minutes into one of his lectures. “I think they understood my point,” he says, before turning to Mammon and continuing his lesson for a good two hours. As you get closer, he understands that you aren't lazy and he even lets you sleep in his office at R.A.D. whenever you need it.

One late evening you trudge into his office, blanket in hand. He looks at you with a raised brow. "Bed, now. You haven't slept properly in like 3 days," you say, while pointing your finger threateningly at him. Much to his own surprise, he finds himself in his bed with you snuggling into his side. He supposes you kind of complete each other in that way, where he sleeps too little, you sleep too much.

The first time you fall asleep during one of your hangouts with Mammon he’s annoyed. He lets you sleep it out because you just look too cute when you’re sleeping, but when you wake up he’s crossing his arms and pouting. “Am I really that boring, huh?” Luckily, we all know the great Mammon can never stay mad with you for too long, so he warms up to you again within an hour or so. If you want you can always speed up the process significantly by giving him kisses or a big hug. It works every single time.

Once he realizes you don’t fall asleep because of him, but because you’re just so damn tired, he stops getting bothered by it. Instead, he just tugs you in, covering you in blankets. He'll even scold his brothers if they're being too loud around you. This just causes them to make fun of him, but always at a lower noise level.

Leviathan is also hurt at first, especially because you fell asleep during an anime marathon. He’s a bit harder to make happy again. He’s absolutely convinced it has something to do with him. No matter how many times you tell him he doesn’t believe you until one day when you fall asleep in the middle of a conversation with Mammon. The sight makes him laugh so hard, he almost falls over.

After that, he doesn’t mind anymore. After all, if you fall asleep around Mammon, then it's probably you who's the problem, not him. He lets you sleep with your head in his lap. He’ll even tread his fingers through your hair, but he’ll never admit that to you when you’re awake. Once you wake up again he’s happy to give you a recap of what you missed in the episode, plus an analysis of the dialogue and the hidden meanings of certain scenes.

Satan doesn’t mind at first, because he likes how it bothers Lucifer. He even helps you get away with it. When you fall asleep during class, he’ll put a book in front of you so the teacher can’t see and he’ll answer the question for you if you’re called on. He even begins to write notes for you. Later it just becomes a habit of his, he does it for you without thinking.

If he’s reading aloud for you and you fall asleep, a smile will tug at his lips and he’ll just continue reading for you. Because of you, he begins researching human sleeping patterns. After he reads that certain foods can make you more energized, he begins to carry fruits and nuts with him, which he offers you whenever you get sleepy.

Asmodeus thinks beauty sleep is very important. It’s only natural that someone as beautiful as you should sleep a lot. Besides that, he’s probably the one who wakes you up from your sleep the most. Too much sleep can be bad for you as well! Besides that, he can't wait for you to wake up to share the insane gossip he just heard. You need to hear it now!

Like with Lucifer, you remind Beelzebub of Belphegor. A lot. His chest hurts when he finds you sleeping in the living room and he carries you to bed. When you fall asleep on his shoulder, he pats your head. He likes just looking at you when you sleep. Not in a creepy way, you just look so peaceful. It soothes the ache in his chest.

If you get too tired while you're out on a trip or assignment, Beel will often offer to piggyback you. Beel is a big guy, he could carry Diavolo around if he wanted to. With you on his back, he barely even registers your weight. His arms hook around your legs and sometimes his fingers will dig into your thighs. He likes the way you wrap your arms around his neck and the way he can feel your breath on his ear, while you whisper things to him. Most of all he likes when you fall asleep and he can hear your soft breathing.

Once you become friends with Belphegor, he’s excited to have a sleeping buddy. You come up to the attic to have your midday nap with him and he immediately opens his arms for you. “I’m serious, Belphie, only one hour,” you say, while setting the alarm on your D.D.D. “You know I can’t sleep for any longer than that.” Belphegor just nods sleepily and traps you in his arms. Once you're asleep, he grabs your phone and turns off the alarm.

When Beel comes to wake you up, saying it’s time for dinner, Belphie just laughs when you slap him lightly and complain that you slept for three hours. After that, you refuse to nap with him anymore until he swears that he won’t mess with your alarm again.

One time you mentioned that you have a hard time waking up in the mornings. The constant night of the Devildom is really messing with your brain. That very same day, a new bed lamp is ordered for you. One of those that imitate the sunrise in the morning, slowly lighting up your room as you wake up. You’re a lot more energetic in the mornings after that, a sight that makes all of the brothers smile your way at breakfast.

thanks for reading! you can find my other stuff here. <3

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transmutationisms · 9 months

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hello! im just finishing up my read of structures of scientific revolutions, which has genuinely been very useful and shifted my understanding of science in a way being around people doing scientific research all day really didn't! i don't have a liberal arts education so i would love to get a sense of (a) what else of the philosophy / history of science canon is worth reading in the original (b) standard review papers or introductory textbooks and (c) critiques of the canon. i understand this is a big ask ofc, so feel free to point me to good depts / syllabi from good courses. thanks :)

yessss such a fun question >:) so, the thing that was so great about 'the structure of scientific revolutions', which i'm sure you've picked up on, is that kuhn pushed historians and philosophers of science to challenge the positivist model of science as a linearly progressive search to 'accumulate knowledge'. the idea of a 'paradigm shift' was itself a paradigm shift at the time; it was an early example of a language for talking about radical change in science without giving into the assumption that change necessarily = 'progress' (defined by national interests, mathematisation, and so forth). this is still an approach that's foundational to history and philosophy of science; it's now taken as so axiomatic that few academics even bother to gloss or defend it in monographs (which raises its own issue with public communication, lol).

where kuhn falls apart more (and this was typical for a philosopher of his era, training, and academic milieu) is in the fact that he never developed any kind of rigorous sociological analysis of science (despite alluding to such a thing being necessary) and you probably also noticed that he makes a few major leaps that indicate he's not fully committed to thinking through the relationship between science and politics. so for example, we might ask, can a paradigm shift ever occur for a reason other than a discovered 'anomaly' that the previous paradigm can't account for? for instance, how do political investments in science and scientific theories affect what's accepted as 'normal science' in a kuhnian sense? are there historical or present cases where a paradigm didn't change even though it persistently failed to explain certain empirical observations or data? what about the opposite, where a paradigm did change, but it wasn't necessarily or exclusively because the new paradigm was a 'better' explanation scientifically? how do we determine what makes an explanation 'better', anyway, especially given that kuhn himself was very much invested in moving beyond the naïve realist position? and on the more sociological side, we can raise issues like: say you're a scientist and you legitimately have discovered an 'anomaly'. how do you communicate that to other scientists? what mechanisms of knowledge production and publication enable you to circulate that information and to be taken seriously? what modes of communication must you use and what credentials or interpersonal connections must you have? what factors cause theories and discoveries to be taken more or less seriously, or adopted more or less quickly, besides just their 'scientific utility' (again, assuming we can even define such a thing)?

again, this is not to shit on kuhn, but to point out that both history and philosophy of science have had a lot of avenues to explore since his work. note that there are a few major disciplinary distinctions here, each with many sub-schools of thought. a 'science and technology studies' or STS program tends to be a mix of sociological and philosophical analysis of science, often with an emphasis on 'technoscience' and much less on historical analysis. a philosophy of science department will be anchored more firmly in the philosophical approach, so you'll find a lot of methodological critique, and a lot of scholarship that seeks to tackle current aporias in science using various philosophical frameworks. a history of science program is fundamentally just a sub-discipline of history, and scholarship in this area asks about the development of science over time, how various forms of thinking came into and out of favour, and so forth. often a department will do both history and philosophy of science (HPS). historians of medicine, technology, and mathematics will sometimes (for arcane scholastic reasons varying by field, training, and country) be anchored in departments of medicine / technology / mathematics, rather than with other faculty of histsci / HPS. but, increasingly in the anglosphere you'll see departments that cover history of science, technology, and mathematics (HSTM) together. obviously, all of these distinctions say more about professional qualifications and university bureaucracy than they do about the actual subject matter; in actuality, a good history of science should virtually always include attention to some philosophical and sociological dimensions, and vice versa.

anyway—reading recs:

there are two general reference texts i would recommend here if you just want to get some compilations of major / 'canonical' works in this field. both are edited volumes, so you can skip around in them as much as you want. both are also very limited in focus to, again, a very particular 'western canon' defined largely by trends in anglo academia over the past half-century or so.

philosophy of science: the central issues (1998 [2013], ed. martin curd & j. a. cover). this is an anthology of older readings in philsci. it's a good introduction to many of the methodological questions and problems that the field has grown around; most of these readings have little to no historical grounding and aren't pretending otherwise.

the cambridge history of science (8 vols., 2008–2020, gen. eds. david c. lindberg & ron numbers). no one reads this entire set because it's long as shit. however, each volume has its own temporal / topical focus, and the essays function as a crash-course in historical methodology in addition to whatever value you derive from the case studies in their own right. i like these vols much more than the curd & cover, but if you really want to dig into the philosophical issues and not the histories, curd & cover might be more fun.

besides those, here are some readings in histsci / philsci that i'd recommend if you're interested. for consistency i ordered these by publication date, but bolded a few i would recommend as actual starting points lol. again some of these focus on specific historical cases, but are also useful imo methodologically, regardless of how much you care about the specific topic being discussed.

Robert M. Young. 1969. "Malthus and the Evolutionists: The Common Context of Biological and Social Theory." Past & Present 43: 109–145.

David Bloor. 1976 [1991]. Knowledge and Social Imagery. Chicago: University of Chicago Press (here is a really useful extract that covers the main points of this text).

Ian Hacking. 1983. Representing and Intervening: Introductory Topics in the Philosophy of Natural Science. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.

Steven Shapin. 1988. “Understanding the Merton Thesis.” Isis 79 (4): 594–605.

Steven Shapin and Simon Schaffer. 1989. Leviathan and the Air-Pump: Hobbes, Boyle, and the Experimental Life. Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press.

Mario Biagioli. 1993. Galileo, Courtier: The Practice of Science in the Culture of Absolutism. Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

Bruno Latour. 1993. The Pasteurization of France. Translated by Alan Sheridan and John Law. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press.

Margaret W. Rossiter. 1993. “The Matthew Matilda Effect in Science.” Social Studies of Science 23 (2): 325–41.

Andrew Pickering. 1995. The Mangle of Practice. Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

Porter, Theodore M. Trust in Numbers: The Pursuit of Objectivity in Science and Public Life. Princeton University Press, 1996.

Peter Galison. 1997. “Trading Zone: Coordinating Action and Belief.” In The Science Studies Reader, edited by Mario Biagioli, 137–60. New York: Routledge.

Crosbie Smith. 1998. The Science of Energy: A Cultural History of Energy Physics in Victorian Britain. Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

Chambers, David Wade, and Richard Gillespie. “Locality in the History of Science: Colonial Science, Technoscience, and Indigenous Knowledge.” Osiris 15 (2000): 221–40.

Kuriyama, Shigehisa. The Expressiveness of the Body and the Divergence of Greek and Chinese Medicine. Zone Books, 2002.

Timothy Mitchell. 2002. Rule of Experts: Egypt, Techno-Politics, Modernity. Berkeley: University of California Press.

James A. Secord. 2003. Victorian Sensation: The Extraordinary Publication, Reception, and Secret Authorship of Vestiges of the Natural History of Creation. Chicago: University Of Chicago Press.

Sheila Jasanoff. 2006. “Biotechnology and Empire: The Global Power of Seeds and Science.” Osiris 21 (1): 273–92.

Murphy, Michelle. Sick Building Syndrome and the Problem of Uncertainty: Environmental Politics, Technoscience, and Women Workers. Duke University Press, 2006.

Kapil Raj. 2007. Relocating Modern Science: Circulation and the Construction of Knowledge in South Asia and Europe, 1650–1900. New York: Palgrave Macmillan.

Schiebinger, Londa L. Plants and Empire: Colonial Bioprospecting in the Atlantic World. Harvard University Press, 2007.

Galison, Peter. “Ten Problems in History and Philosophy of Science.” Isis 99, no. 1 (2008): 111–24.

Daston, Lorraine, and Peter Galison. Objectivity. Zone Books, 2010.

Dipesh Chakrabarty. 2011. “The Muddle of Modernity.” American Historical Review 116 (3): 663–75.

Forman, Paul. “On the Historical Forms of Knowledge Production and Curation: Modernity Entailed Disciplinarity, Postmodernity Entails Antidisciplinarity.” Osiris 27, no. 1 (2012): 56–97.

Ashworth, William J. 2014. "The British Industrial Revolution and the the Ideological Revolution: Science, Neoliberalism, and History." History of Science 52 (2): 178–199.

Mavhunga, Clapperton. 2014. Transient Workspaces: Technologies of Everyday Innovation in Zimbabwe. Cambridge, MA: MIT Press.

Lynn Nyhart. 2016. “Historiography of the History of Science.” In A Companion to the History of Science, edited by Bernard Lightman, 7–22. Chichester, UK: Wiley Blackwell.

Rana Hogarth. 2017. Medicalizing Blackness: Making Racial Difference in the Atlantic World, 1780–1840. Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press.

Suman Seth. 2018. Difference and Disease: Medicine, Race, and the Eighteenth-Century British Empire. Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press.

Aro Velmet. 2020. Pasteur's Empire: Bacteriology and Politics in France, its Colonies, and the World. Oxford: Oxford University Press.

i would also say, as a general rule, these books are generally all so well-known that there are very good book reviews and review essays on them, which you can find through jstor / your library's database. these can be invaluable both because your reading list would otherwise just mushroom out forever, and because a good review can help you decide whether you even need / want to sit down with the book itself in the first place. literally zero shame in reading an academic text secondhand via reviews.

#sorry this got long as shit lol #book recs #hps

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rainbowchaox · 3 months

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Why Pissa Works: Qsmp Analysis Essay

This is more of an analysis of the relationship in general and why it’s so important to understanding both Missa and Phil as characters. And it’s a disgrace if you ignore their relationship as it’s very important to their characters. I already delved into them as characters but I miss them and therefore I want to dissect the dynamic in this essay. And why it works so well. This time I am having some help from friends to give me their thoughts on them as well. As they are as “normal” about them like me.

At the start no one really knew what sort of longing and pining and loyalty that would spawn from what is practically a random lottery. Missa and Phil being together was fate. I think no other pairing would have clicked so well for Missa or Phil. They were sorta destined to be together to be husband’s. But no one could have guessed how important they would be to each other. No one would have guessed how important this random lottery would be.

When they were paired. They immediately clicked. They immediately joked and laughed. They had fun together. And that was the spark for their relationship to blossom from. They were THE couple. Everyone was jealous of them. They were disgustingly happy. And there was always a GREAT something between them from Day 1. There’s reasons why Chayanne and eventually Tallulah are so protective over their marriage. But even then, they were just cute. They didn’t have the extra something that changed us for the better and the worse. What really made Pissa so special. Until……

The four months of utter pain. Of yearning. Of everyone accepting that things might be over before things really could blossom. But it wasn’t the end for someone. It never was the end for Phil. Time is different for someone touched by death. “Phil is patient and doesn’t take breaks between meetings as difficulties. Their relationship will never sour. When Missa is there, he picks up where they left off.” an excerpt from my talks with Ash. And she is completely correct. I have mentioned this plenty of times in my previous essays about their characters. But Phil doesn’t mind he has to wait for Missa. Time passes differently for immortals. But also Missa just being Missa has long acquired his loyalty. Something hard to get but harder to lose.

And it’s because of Phil utter loyalty and willingness to wait that their dynamic really was able to bloom. Missa took his heart. The less Phil can do is wait. Because when Missa does Phil always has so much fun with him. Missa always reminds Phil why he stays loyal to him. Missa is JUST so good. Phil can see that.

Phil always had valid reason to move on from Missa especially during the four months. No one knew he would return. And he almost gave up hope by the end. But throughout the four months he mentioned him, he looked at skulls all sad, and he yearned for him. And when he came back? He was so happy. He never blamed Missa but you can tell he wants to spend time with him more. You can tell he missed him. You can miss someone being gone and not hate him. He just missed his husband.

“Missa also rolls with the punches a lot, when Phil says there's a new kid, Missa takes that and immediately bonds with Tallulah, when something crazy happens, Missa is there to eventually bring a smile to his family faces. They both don't get hung up on the craziness in between.” As quoted directly from my friend Ash. She is right. This right here is what changed the pissa dynamic for the better. Phil notices things and he noticed how kind and wonderful Missa is. Phil remembers others kindness.

Missa is always on his family side. Phil can depend on him always. So of course he is also Tallulah father. Missa was happy to take that responsibility. Missa is there to bring a smile to his family even in the rainiest of days. He is there when they need time to just enjoy living instead of surviving. Which is addicting to a man that only knew how to survive. Theres reasons why Phil fell for Missa.

Phil doesn’t verbalize his emotions. He is always a show not tell type of character. But it’s clear to anyone he adores missa. He stares at skulls missing him. He has his obession with giant Missa. He always has a place for Missa in his home. He collects Missa art like shinnies. He is so darn possessive of him. He loves Missa so much and it’s clear through his actions.

Missa also brings him great comfort in general. Missa is similar to him in the ways that matter but his complete opposite in other ways. Phil is emotionally repressed while Missa emotions bleed out like ink. Phil is skilled in fighting and surviving while Missa is best at music and art. Not skills you really need to survive.

So they always had this sweet dynamic and it grew with patience, with love, and a healthy dose of yearning on both sides. Enjoying each other when they are able. Soaking each other affection and love. But then Purgatory happened.

And they got spilt up. And this caused both to realize they just didn’t love each other. But they needed each other. Flaws and all. And that they definitely couldn’t harm each other. That they always been each other homes. They needed to separate to realize how important the other is. They both had their realizations. And post-purgatory we did see an uptick in very affectionate pissa.

And it was beautiful to see how their relationship has grown. But then Prison happened. And they fully showed everyone how much they care about each other. Phil and the kids just soaking Missa being present. Them being so happy despite in actual prison. Phil being possessive over Missa. Phil and Missa finally kissing (numerous times).

Purgatory may have made them realize they needed each other but prison made them realize they wanted each other. They wanted to be a family. They wanted to be happy. And it made both of them selfish. Which was they always sorta wanted.

They say I love you with every glance. They say I love you with every tired cuddle. They say I love you with every smile. They say I love you when they are watching the kids sleep. They say I love you protecting each other. They say I love you finally letting the others see them vulnerable. They don’t need to use words. They know they love each other. And that’s beautiful. No wonder why we are so “normal” about their sweet relationship.

#qsmp #pissa #qsmp pissa #pissa newspaper

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firethekitty · 7 months

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Ranking Every Wolfwood!!

happy wolfwood wednesday! i've ranked every wolfwood and it very quickly got out of hand and turned into more of a character analysis/meta. it was really fun and helped me better understand why i love this guy so much!

yes, really!

i hope you guys enjoy and that my autistic rambling makes sense!

1. trimax wolfwood. yeah he’s perfect. nothing else to say. god bless

while i can’t fit everything i love about him into one post, just know that i’ve written almost 30,000 words in wolfwood (and vash) character studies. so when i say “i like trimax wolfwood” that really means “i am fucking obsessed with trimax wolfwood”.

he’s the perfect mix of silly and heartbreaking, funny and serious, annoying like an older brother, deeply kind, so so painfully human; and a PERFECT foil to vash. simply phenomenal writing.

my only complaint would be that his tits are not on display like they are in the 1998 anime. but i can appreciate the subtly, so this doesn’t detract from his otherwise flawless score.

2. 98 wolfwood. omg hiiiii hehe twirling my hair ohh he’s so handsome what an absolutely beautiful design for him. his nose, his spider-esque shape, his TITS…… they even kept his little whiskers!

on top of an amazing design, he’s a very good balance of silly, irritable, playfully annoying, and serious! he fits pre-trimax wolfwood to a T!

but, as trimax progressed…

he’s cool. too cool. he has too much pull. wolfwood should NOT have swag. genuinely it is imperative to his character that he is, and i say this as lovingly as possible, a fucking loser with no friends.

wolfwood is a deeply traumatized man. he isn’t nearly as charming as we, the audience, thinks he is. no one laughs at his jokes, his insults are crude and immature, he embarrasses himself in front of literal children…

god, he is so painfully awkward. and who wouldn’t be in his situation? to have your childhood stolen and forced to grow up as a weapon? not allowed to interact casually with anyone else during the most important developmental stage of your life?

he's just not suave like tri98 wolfwood is. so, while 98 wolfwood is an excellent character, he doesn’t entirely read “wolfwood” to me. similar to how 98 vash is good on his own, but he’s just not “vash”. this is, of course, the result of making an anime out of a manga that wasn’t even 30% finished at the time. while i don’t understand the reasoning behind this, i know that nightow desperately needed the funds the anime brought in, as well as the motivation to keep making trimax, so i have to simply make peace with the dated characterizations tri98 has.

but don’t get me started on the milly situation. really a godawful writing decision, idk who approved that mess.

3. tristamp wolfwood. he is so bullyable. he’s like a sopping wet cat. absolute fucking dweeb.

i debated this for a long time—whether i should rank tristamp wolfwood above tri98 wolfwood. and i asked myself, do i love tri98 wolfwood because he’s a good character and is similar to trimax wolfwood? does he even remind me of trimax wolfwood at all? well, not really, he’s very clearly based on pre-trimax, just like tri98 vash is.

ultimately i decided i do genuinely just prefer tri98 wolfwood, but i felt the need to defend tristamp wolfwood because i see a lot of fair criticisms but also really dumb discourse throughout the fandom about him. so here’s my attempt at trying to address these:

so, there are some things i really enjoy about him and some things i really dislike; and, unlike vash, most of these criticisms are not a result of time/pacing issues. they’re easily fixable.

like, for the love of god he NEEDS to get sillier. they got the loser part down, but he’s a bit too overtly sad in tristamp. i think he will be more like his trimax self in season 2, but wolfwood’s humor is in-part a coping mechanism and important to his character. he’s an older brother! he’s fucking annoying! he thinks he's funny when he isn't! we do get a little bit of this with him and meryl, when he's tormenting her at the campfire, and that’s what i want to see more of. even if he’s playing it up, he should be working on getting their guards down, convincing them he isn't going to betray them.

since tristamp takes place in a weird prequel sort of canon, i get that he would look/act younger than he is in trimax. i think he was modeled after the teenage wolfwood we see in the flashback scenes of him training for the eye of michael, where he’s noticeably less outgoing and more reserved.

however, this doesn’t change the fact that he WAS silly as a kid in trimax, before his “teenage angst phase” (hate to call it that when it’s more like a “realizing he’s going to die by the gun and not being able to do anything about it” phase). but he’s still a lot quieter and reserved in tristamp as a kid, so i think we really need to find a good balance here in the trigun adaptations.

another example of an easily fixable issue—i really hate how they did the “vash sees how kind wolfwood is” scene, in which wolfwood gives money/snacks to children. in tristamp, wolfwood already knows the kid is zazie, which tells us absolutely nothing about his character. this scene is almost entirely worthless, only good for reminding vash that he should eat, which gives tristamp its own not-as-good hospital yuri scene.

and, so, about the elephant in the room… i don’t think he was whitewashed. let me try to explain my thought process.

tristamp, as far as i can tell, doesn’t seem to be taking any inspiration from tri98, whose wolfwood is very explicitly a brown man. trimax wolfwood i feel is a bit more ambiguous in his skin tone, which alternates between dark screentones and completely uncolored pretty much at solid 50/50 odds. just fairly inconsistent overall, even on the official manga covers.

but this doesn’t mean wolfwood is white in tristamp, and it doesn’t mean he doesn’t have his aquiline nose. the notorious scenes of him in the suns, looking white as a fucking sheet, shows us how a 3D environment can diminish a character’s silhouette and distinctive features.

compare this to scenes of wolfwood in a dim environment, or to the 2D scenes of child wolfwood and livio that i can't include bc i'm only allowed 10 pics. he looks MUCH better, much darker than vash, and as they both should appear in such lighting. it just doesn't add up—he should be much darker in strong light if they followed the same color values:

SO, even though i feel like all of this is more of a technical issue rather than malicious whitewashing, that doesn’t mean i think it’s acceptable. it looks fucking awful, and the lighting system needs major improvement to work with darker skin tones.

and, like, at the end of the day, wolfwood isn’t canonically latino, and he doesn't really have a consistent skin tone either. it’s a great headcanon, one i partially share, but it’s not canon. the only ethnicity that could technically be considered somewhat canon is japanese, as wolfwood was based off a japanese singer named tortoise matsumoto. you can see this resemblance best in early trigun!

and i really need to defend his nose!!! a lot of people say he lost his nose but he didn’t!! i promise it’s there!!! another victim of his 3D model, you can only see his nose from the side or in the 2D frame after he gets his shit wrecked. see how clearly he has a very well-defined nose when he’s hand-drawn? this is what i mean when i say a 3D environment can drastically alter a character’s important features, as much as i otherwise adore the animation for this show.

also, if you think nightow would let studio orange get away with not including his nose, you got another thing coming.

in conclusion, while i think tristamp wolfwood is a great start, he’s just not quite there yet. but i have immense faith that the next time we see him, he’ll look and act a lot more like he does in trimax!

i know this is true, because there are already some shots in tristamp where i’m just like. oh yeah. there he is. that’s wolfwood. there's the guy i love so much

...

well, that was long! this was really fun to write and i

oh jesus christ what the hell is that thing

4. badlands rumble wolfwood. ah, now here’s a great example of overt whitewashing. no lighting excuses this time, just blatant colorism.

even if he wasn’t ghostly white, there's just something about his design that makes me viscerally uncomfortable and i can’t pinpoint what it is exactly. he’s just so… angular. he has no scruff, no kitty cat mouth, his eyes are very oddly shaped, almost no eyebrows... i just really hate looking at him!

his ONLY saving grace is how mentally ill he acts in this movie. and his tits. otherwise i don’t really have much to say about him!

ok, now we’re done! and here’s a handy wolfwood chart i made to summarize everything.

really hope this was fun to read and if people liked this i'd be glad to write a vash version or other characters!! happy woowoo wednesday :)

#trigun #trimax #tristamp #tri98 #wolfwood #vashwood #a little bit. enough for me to tag hehe #meta #trigun meta #character analysis #also i don't mean to imply ethnicity = skin color but latino wolfwood is by far the most common headcanon i've seen. which i really like!#but it can very quickly diverge into the latino lover trope and i've seen that A Lot in this fandom #and i don't really want to get into fanon wolfwood here bc that's an entire other can of worms

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where-does-the-heart-lie · 9 months

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Can we have a deeper analysis in Sabo's shape language study please? It's amazing how you make him give different vibes with just his hair and I like to understand how does that work.

Oh. I'm SO glad you asked.

(The Post In Question)

Okay so this isnt the first post ive made about shape language,

Here are the others:

ASL Shapes Strawhats Shapes

i'm just gonna copy and paste the definition i have for shape language from those posts here so i dont have to write it all again.

Shape language is defined as “a concept used in art and animation to communicate meaning based on shapes we are familiar with” (source). This concept uses circles, triangles, and squares to convey an idea of the “personality” of the design without using any words.

In designs, using circles and rounded edges in your silhouette and detailing gives the design a soft and squishy look. They tend to be harmless, approachable, or changeable.

Designs using squares gives the design a solid, sturdy, and strong look. They are supportive, reliable, and inflexible

Lastly, triangle designs are sharp and directional. They are dynamic, dangerous, and unpredictable.

That's base level but here's more in depth description of each design for ya:

this one is up first!

You may notice how in this design, his hair isnt in large clumps like the others are. His hair falls delicately and waves gently with little to no hard angles.

In this design, i was trying to convey the idea of "he wasnt born to fight, but he's molded himself into someone who will." I tried to depict that by making his hair all light and feathery, his facial features soft and rounded, but also showing how he's modified his body in a pointy and aggressive way.

I didn't want to only go hard edges with the piercings though because much like he's strayed from his mold of being delicate, he's also strayed from his mold of being a cruel noble. so some of his piercings are rings, AKA: Circles.

You may also notice the different in how I've drawn the collars of these guys. the collar of this Babo's black coat falls softly, and its' arc is rounded. The shoulders don't have any padding and it rounds at the corner.

This Man Is Round.

Next up is this Freak

This is supposed to be Triangle Him.

His hair is in larger, hard angled clumps. Indicating that he probably cut his hair himself. He did... greattt. I already headcannon him as someone who cuts his own hair, but i dont think this one ever gets any better at it.

The hard angles on his teeth, his scar, his jaw, his collar, that line i forgot to erase on the left, and his coat all give indication that this guy is Dangerous and you probably shouldnt mess with him.

I didn't have any real deeper meaning to this version, I just wanted to make him look as opposing as I could. this guy is "what you see is pretty much what you get."

Even though he doesn't have a lot of deeper meaning, I think this one is my favorite of the designs. I really love these colors on him and his hair was really fun to draw. I think I wanna draw him again at some point. I think this version of him would be very funny paired with Koala. I'm chuckling thinking about it:

Koala and her Armed and On Fire kindergartener

And lastly this guy

Sabo's base design is very rectangle coded. From his Hat, to his face shape, to his coat. So this version was very easy to make as I didn't actually need to change that much!

I think maybe I could've made his design a little more complex? But also I think there is a beauty in simplicity for this one. He looks straightforward, reliable, and kind. He seems like the kind of guy who gets his hands dirty, not because he likes doing it, but because he does what he must for the greater good.

I really love his hazel eyes, too. I think it brings a nice warmth to his design that is really nice.

Additional comments:

I love talking about this stuff. I love designing. I love art. I love drawing so much it's so fun

Everytime I get to sit down and make some funky doodles my brain feels like 🧠🤸🧘🧜🧚🙋‍♀️🙋‍♀️🧚💃💃💃💃💃💃

If you got this far thanks for reading :)

I usually have a description for my designs and my choices and stuff and I forgot to do one for this post, it makes me happy to see that it was missed :)

#ask reply #@naniguini #shape language

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crystalelemental · 8 months

Text

Character Analysis - Carmine and Kieran

I have been trying to write something on this for the majority of the week and haven't been able to organize it in a way I like. So this will not be coherent, but since I've had my second go through the DLC story, I have...a lot more to say on Carmine and Kieran.

Seeking Strength Kieran's big focus by the end is on not being strong enough, and needing to become stronger than you. I think it's largely accepted that this is to defeat you, that he has it out for the protagonist. I disagree.

Consider why strength is important, and when it became clear. The first time Kieran mentions strength, it's in front of the ogre's cave. He talks about wanting to battle, thinking maybe that could impress the ogre. And he loses. Which is whatever, the ogre didn't show. But then it does. To you, and to his sister, but not to him. Internally, the connection is clear: the ogre doesn't trust me, because it sees me as weak.

This goes back even further, though. Think about your introduction to him. Carmine battles you to kick you out, and you win. Carmine's response here is interesting. She comments on everything, and actively makes fun of you if you use a not very effective attack, snarking that you must not know your type matchups after all. She oozes confidence and control, to excess. But when she loses, there's a bit of a fist shake, but rather than anger, she turns away and looks...sad. Losing upsets her, and while she bounces back, that moment suggests a deeper vulnerability and need to seem strong.

And to Kieran, she does. She's constantly in control, and by and large, he seems to follow her pace. If she asks him to do something, and by asks I mean tells, he generally follows through. And he saw someone beat her. There's someone stronger than his sister now. And that's interesting. I think there's a lot more to it, but I'll save that for a later section. For now, the point is, Kieran's always been focused on strength, because he admires Carmine's strength, and wants to be more like that.

I think this recontextualizes your final fight a bit, too. Carmine tells Kieran that he can't make Ogerpon go with him, she has her own will to choose. Kieran still insists he needs this battle, and it seems like the perception of this is "he's ignoring it." But I don't think he is. At this point, he's lost multiple times, each time thinking it's his lack of strength that resulted in him not getting what he wanted. It was, at first, to meet and befriend the ogre. And yeah, he'd still like to. He's still trying, given the stipulations of the fight. But he's also fighting for his sense of self-worth. He feels he's not strong enough, and that lack of strength is holding him back. He's seen his sister lose twice now, yet she's still confident. But he lost, and feels like he's losing more of what little he had to start with.

Belonging and Isolation Carmine's hostility toward outsiders is, as expressed, a matter of feeling like her hometown is becoming a tourist trap. I think what often gets missed in this is that Carmine herself is...fairly traditional. She cares about the customs of the village, the sanctity of the crystal pool, and the prominence of the Loyal Three. She even remarks that obviously she likes the three better, Kieran just likes the ogre because he's a ten year old boy and they're always into weird monster things. She considers integration with the village something important, and deep down, cares about it as a whole.

That's not to say she gets along with everyone. The Caretaker seems more than happy to make the conversion if it helps the town thrive, and Carmine actively disagrees with that. Her hostility is clear to us, and she makes her reason known, but it's not clear how much the villagers seem to understand this. They tend to treat Carmine's responses as part of an attitude problem, more than anything. The Caretaker is pre-emptive in calling out Carmine to get along with everyone. They know she's not happy about it, but expect her to just deal with it, and kinda treat her like they expect problems. Calling them the "Lousy Three" gets an almost exasperated comment about her attitude and a correction, like they fully expect her to be this way, and don't consider the why behind it.

By contrast, Kieran...successfully talks them into abandoning their ancient beliefs and understanding of the past in the course of a single afternoon.

For all the emphasis on Kieran seeming lonely, and I do believe he himself feels that way, Kieran...seems pretty well accepted by people. Think about how significant it is that they're willing to listen to him, with such seriousness, that they'll believe him when he says their understanding of history is wrong.

I think this plays into an interesting dichotomy with the siblings. On the one hand, Kieran is pretty well accepted, but genuinely lonely. On the other, Carmine seems perfectly fine being by herself, and doesn't seem to interface well with the others. But when you look at what they want? Kieran doesn't seem to care that he runs contrary to everything the village stands for. The ogre is cool, he likes that best, and sees little of interest or value in the three. He doesn't really care to integrate with the village. But Carmine does care, and isn't successful at it. By all accounts, she doesn't seem to have friends either. But when a new kid rolls in, and her brother takes an interest in them, she still focuses on him first.

Justice and Fairness Carmine is, at her core, pretty focused on what's right. Despite being more aligned with tradition in her village, when her grandfather reveals the truth, she's immediately furious on Ogerpon's behalf. She has no reservations about telling the rest of the village, until he appeals to her sense of reason, and she understands where the concern might be.

Carmine's reactive, but she's not a fool. She's pretty grounded, but in that way where I think it causes her to miss some things and seem unconcerned with feelings. But she does care about how people feel; quite a bit, really. When Kieran tries to give his ogre mask to you, Carmine intervenes and tells him not to. That's his favorite mask, and he shouldn't have to go without. Besides, practically speaking, we just buy the new kid a mask they like at the festival. It's pragmatic. But it also misses that Kieran was okay with sharing his mask for his friend. She cares about his feelings, enough to worry about him giving up something he cares about. But it's in a more...avoidant sense. More on that later.

By contrast, Kieran seems focused more on fairness. It doesn't matter the reason or intent, you left him out of what you knew. You didn't tell him about the ogre. You ran off with Carmine and pushed him aside, and that's not fair. He was your friend first, and he cared about the ogre first, and it isn't fair that suddenly that all doesn't matter. In that sense, he's very emotional, but doesn't really consider the rational cause of things. It's all about how he feels. This runs very counter to how Carmine is, being very emotional, but focusing more on the practical reason than how she's feeling.

I think you can also see this in how they express themselves. Kieran has no trouble opening up the instant you're on your own with him. He'll tell you all about how he thinks the ogre is cool, and that he was only scared of getting yelled at for going to the mountain. But Carmine legitimately struggles with it. She has a tough time being honest with people, and her sense of what being mean to someone is, boils down to "I didn't hit him." It's as if she doesn't really understand that her words can hurt people, or perhaps why someone would be hurt by them. The idea of "What you're saying was rude" is secondary to the practical outcome. If it's true, it doesn't matter how I say it. If it's what has to happen, it doesn't matter that it comes out as "Kiki, get out of here." Her mentality seems to be that she knows best, and is going to act on that, and there's no reason for people to be upset with her if she's right.

Sibling's Bond In one of the earliest scenes, we get a very good sense for the dynamic the siblings have. Kieran has taken an interest in the player, but barely speaks to them, turning his face away and not even listening to them. Carmine intervenes by explaining what he's thinking and asking for you to battle on his behalf. Kieran shies away, Carmine takes control, and Kieran is more than willing to cede that control to her. In this situation, it works out, as he gets to spend time with a new friend. It is the first, and only, time this dynamic works in their favor.

Every other instance of this particular dynamic coming into play hurts more than helps. When Carmine interrupts you talking about the ogre, and insists Kieran not find out, that's her assuming control like usual. Same with telling him to just leave the next morning. Kieran shies away from staying to help with the mask quest, rather than confront that someone else gets along better with Ogerpon. This is a dynamic they've had for a long while, and there is evidence to prove it.

"I hate when he gets like this." Carmine's clearly annoyed, but the phrasing evokes the sense that this isn't just something that happened before, it's happened often. And she's not happy about it. Kieran running off crying is the only time she really expresses anything truly negative about her brother, and it's telling of what she herself can't handle.

If Kieran's crying, it's because something's bothered him, and as the one who takes care of him, that feels like it's her fault. I talked about how Carmine is integrated with the beliefs of the village, if not its people, but there's a bit more to it. Carmine's generally apathetic about whether people like her, she's more concerned with being right, and doing right. Carmine cares about being a good person. And if her brother's throwing a fit, it's putting her in the position of the bad guy, and criticisms about being nice to him evoke an outrage. "It's not like I hit him" isn't just telling of her lack of awareness for how her words come across, it's indignation that her grandfather is implying she's at fault. Kieran crying is the one thing that she cannot tolerate.

And for Kieran, that makes it a very effective play. Because I keep going, I need to be clear: I am not saying Kieran is being manipulative. He's like ten, and highly emotional. He's not sitting around thinking that if he just cries, Carmine will do whatever he wants. He's just having an emotion, and Carmine has a reaction. It's the dynamic that turns this into a recurring feature of their relationship.

The behavioral term is Negative Reinforcement: an outcome that increases the chance of the behavior occurring in the future, by removing an aversive stimulus. When Kieran wants something, and it doesn't happen, he'll get emotional and cry. Carmine, feeling guilty or responsible, folds to make him stop. The initial aversive - not getting what he wants - is removed as a consequence of his crying, making it more likely to occur again. But the same is true for Carmine. She cannot stand that crying, so when she gives in, the crying stops, reinforcing capitulation.

It's a situation where neither is really at fault. They're both kids, and have that sibling dynamic. Older siblings take care of the younger ones. When you have an older sibling who feels responsible for the wellbeing of the younger, and cares deeply about taking care of them without knowing the difference between "helping them do it" and "doing it for them," you get Carmine. When you have a younger sibling who is particularly emotional and withdrawn alongside them, you get Kieran.

And the DLC is the breakdown of this dynamic.

Another really fun behavioral term: Extinction Burst. Extinction refers to when reinforcement is removed as a consequence of a behavior. Effectively, you decouple the behavior and what typically happens. An extinction burst is the oft emotional blowup that comes as a result of a behavior no longer meeting its typical, expected reinforcer. Think about when your computer won't turn on. How many times mashing the button does it take before you check the power cord? Do you stay calm during that or start cursing it out, maybe worrying that something's broken and desperately hoping it turns on if you just hit it right, or hold it long enough? That's the extinction burst in play.

That's what's going on with Kieran. He's finding his independence, but as part of that, he's learning what it means to have it. Sometimes things don't go your way, and you have to live with that. Even crying won't get the situation to change now, and he...hasn't figured out what else to do. Unintentionally, by handling things for him, Carmine's left him in a situation where he's unequipped to manage circumstance. All he can think is pushing for strength, and battling you over and over and over in hopes that this time, he'll win.

By contrast, Carmine's doing...really well. She adapts well, makes quick friends with the player as well, assumes a sort of leadership role in the quest, and demonstrates the reality that for all her bluster, she does care and is fairly well adjusted. She's had the experience to manage frustrations and setbacks, even if they're difficult, to the point that by the end of your last battle, she can earnestly smile and congratulate you. Her dynamic with you is thriving. And, for a while, your dynamic with Kieran was too, before his perception of inadequacy interferes. It's sad but worth noting: the happiest we see either of them is when they're away from each other.

I don't have any profound thoughts beyond this, nor guesses to how Indigo Disk might play out. But I think it's interesting how they managed to create a story with a compelling conflict, where these is no true "bad guy." I was initially kinda down on the DLC, I felt like the legendary stuff was kinda bland. But I've really come around on these two, and look forward to the next part.

#pokemon #carmine #kieran #teal mask #pokemon scarlet and violet

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factual-fantasy · 3 months

Text

26 ASKS! :DD THANK YOU! :}} 🥓

I mean, knowing me I'll come back around to it someday. I love Octonauts and tend to loop back around to that show every so often.. Its just that I've had a lot of uncomfortable experiences in the Octonauts fandom. Especially recently..

I don't really wanna go into detail, but I will say that I've encountered more upsetting situations in the Octonauts fandom, than I have in nearly every other fandom combined. Which is rather surprising considering its a kids show. And also unfortunate, since I don't really feel free to have fun in the Octonauts fandom the way I want to..

I'm hoping that at some point I can get my confidence back and find my way around that fandom and have the fun I want. But for now I'm just kind'a keeping my distance and thinking about it. I don't need any extra stress rn-

@unpopularartist14

I use FireAlpaca! :D As for how to draw injuries and bruises.. hmm.. well.. injuries are different from drawing to drawing and hard to explain.. but bruises? aaa how do I explain it--

Well, for character with pale skin. Like Wario and Waluigi.. I find I just airbrush some deep purples and reds in one spot on their face and put some dark purple/red scratches on top.. and how much purple or red you use depends on the freshness/severity of the bruise. If that makes sense..??

Like- Using this post with the Wario "bros" as an example, the bruise on Waluigi's chin/cheek is a muddy purple and has dark purple scratches on it. I feel like using purple makes the bruise look little older and likes its healed some.

Meanwhile on Wario's chin the bruise is pink/red-ish. Making it look "bloody" and fresh. I think so at least--

AGHHG- sorry, I'm not the best at explaining things. I hope you can look to that post as a reference and draw some bruises. I used the airbrush and pencil tool to draw them if that helps! <:D

@untitled-7613 (Comic in question)

Hmm.. my favorite Disney character.. I know that Disney bought Pixar and now owns all the characters. So I'm trying to think of characters that Disney made, not bought.. and I'm having some trouble remembering the older movies..

I think I liked Tarzan! Though I wouldn't say he's my favorite.. hmm.. I like Mufasa from the Lion King and I like the Genie from Aladdin! I also liked John Silver from treasure planet! (That was Disney right?) But idk if I'd say they're my favorite Disney characters.. hmm..

Now, if you're asking what my favorite Disney/Pixar character is? Well that's easy 👇

@tallchest13-blog

XDD Thank you so much! :DD I'm glad you like it! :}}}}

:x I have not seen the welcome home update-- all my info comes from MatPat/his channels. I'm way too lazy to actually go look into any welcome home stuff myself <XDD

ALTHOUGH!- I have heard that Julie has monster paws! :DD No doubt she has them for different reasons than my Julie, but still! it felt like an Apollos dodgeball moment for me! XDD

I'm not sure why you're telling me all this.. but I suppose I'll put in my 2 cents while you're here-

While some of this is true, this sounds like a rather 1 sided view of Alphys' character. I know most of the Undertale characters are beautifully complex and thought out, Alphys included. And I don't think this view is accurate to who she really is.

For example, as far as I remember she wasn't watching anime to "slack off". I'm sure she was severely depressed and extremely overwhelmed with everything going on in her life atm.

I think it would be a good idea for you to watch some character analysis videos on Alphys. Since I don't remember her very clearly, I cannot defend her very well. But I recall seeing a lot of posts/videos in defense of Alphys and explaining why she did the things she did.

Basically, I think its worth your while to actually look into Alphys and give her a chance! Who knows, after gaining some more understanding of her, you might just like her! :}

WAAAHAAG THANK YOU SO MUCH!! THAT MEANS A LOT TO MEEE!!😭💖💖😭💖

And hey, I get where you're coming from about the whole art theft thing. :( That is my biggest struggle being here on Tumblr. The constant art theft is so disheartening. In fact there were several times in the past where I almost threw in the towel and quit Tumblr all together over it.

But what's kept me around is people like you! :D There's some folks out there that really care about what I make. And are excited to see what I make next! The nice comments they leave me and the engagement with my work has really stuck with me. And it's what keeps me coming back! Maybe someday if you decide to take that first step and post some artwork, you'll find a lotta nice folks that make the art theft seem not so bad :}

Also giant watermarks. Giaaant watermarks that are just annoying to look at. That might discourage art theft <XDD

As for Jevil and Grillby.. In my AU, Jevil has this power to create mirrors and jump from timeline to timeline through them.

At some point when it was just him and Seam traveling together, they wound up in this Snowdin at night. Grillby was about to close his bar but he saw these too tired and hungry people so he let them in.

At some point while they were sitting at the counter and talking to Grillby.. Jevil could feel in his soul that this timeline they were in was about to collapse. Killing everyone in it. Jevil reacted on instinct and grabbed Seam and Grillby's arm and pulled the three of them through a mirror. The timeline was destroyed as soon as they disaapered.

What this meant is Jevil had saved Grillby's life!.. But his AU/timeline no longer existed. All of Grillby's friends and family were gone.. his home was gone.. He was now a homeless wandering traveler just like Seam and Jevil.

Deep down, Grillby doesn't really hate Jevil. He just took the grief of it all really hard and blamed it all on Jevil in response. He wished that Jevil hadn't saved him so he could have just died with the rest of his family.. and not have to experience this grief today..

Overtime he gets better.. and he understands that Jevil didn't want for any of this to happen. Eventually they talk about it a little and they end up on better terms. Maybe even becoming true friends someday. :}

@astaherussy (Recent development post on the Wario "bros") (Old Wario "bros" post) (Old King Boo/Boos post)

Thank you so much! I'm glad you like what I've made! :DD As for Wario and Waluigi.. the main changes I'm working on are visual/design changes. In their outfits especially. And I'm thinking of taking away their hats. They looked obviously very similar to Mario and Luigi's..

When it comes to their story, that is also being developed. I think I wanna keep the aspect of the Mario bros getting in some trouble and the Wario "bros" rescue them. Though with recent developments.. I don't know if the whole thing in Shy Guy woods is gonna work out-

In other news, actually no! :0 I wasn't aware that Spidercrab is so liked, but I am very glad to hear that he is! :DD

And a lot of those vibes was what I was going for! Tired, traumatized, has anxiety but is better at hiding it. Though the father figure is unexpected XD but I guess it fits! He's rather introverted and prefers quiet and space. But he is also the crews medic, and boy does he worry and care too much for his own good. He cares too much about them to spend all his time alone. He not only cares about their physical health, but he cares about them as people.

He wants to be there for his crew. He want's to be the first to notice when something is wrong or one of his crew is unwell. So he tries to participate in all their gatherings. Despite how much he'd rather just go read a book in his hammock <XDD

Though, he is still antisocial/awkward.. so there could have been many times he noticed one of the crew seemed off. But he didn't have the guts to talk to them. So he would go and tip off one of the other crew members to check up on them. Stuff like that I imagine is his way of showing he cares. :}

WAHG! I rambled a bit there didn't I? <XD Well I hope it was a fun read at least- as a thanks for taking interest in Spidercrab! It means a lot to me :}}}

Thank you so much!! And indeed he is! I'm so honored that you remembered him! :DD Though he's looking at some major re-designing and a biiiiit of lore re-structuring too <XDD 💔💔

<XD Unfortunately for many reasons I cannot/will not drink any of the things on that list. But! I can drink water! :D

@badlyblurry

<XDD I suppose so, at the very least I'm dipping my toes in and having some fun!

Hmm.. out of all the Mario games I can remember.. I think red shells from Mario kart got on my nerves the most <XDD

That, or this one very specific Zinger from Donkey Kong country. But I get that a DK game might not count XDD

📢📢SHOUT OUT TO YOU SETH!! :DD 📢📢

Thank you!! :DD

@neo-metalscottic

Ahh, I see, thank you for the info! And I'm glad you like my interpretation of them anyways! :DD

And oh yeah, his children's safety is his #1 priority. He's probably getting Kamek to create more Goomba's and rearranging his troops. Setting up a big chunk of them to just be on watch duty around his land. In case the hero's decide to come back..

He's also probably tightening the defenses around his hidden palace. (Where the Koopalings, Kamek, Kammy and the Blue paratroops all live.) Most likely by stationing more troops there and hiding out there himself. He wasn't able to beat the bros but he will still be an obstacle for them if they ever make it to the palace and try to hurt his kids. (Mario and Luigi wouldn't do that most likely but Bowser doesn't really know anything about them at this point- other than the fact they are very powerful and very scary)

I didn't think much about K rool when I made my version of DK. But that guy and his species are intended to exist and be causing problems on DK's island. Though all the details I'm unsure of.. perhaps its what you said, maybe they want the special beets and fruits that the kongs eat? Or maybe they came from another island that didn't have much to eat and now they're here to take over.?? :00

Sorry, I don't take requests! And my ability to draw rn is rather limited anyways... 😅

BUT! May I direct you to this post and point out a detail in the background? Cici only ate the frosting off her cake slice. So Bibi offered his slice so she could scrape off his cake frosting and eat that too XDD What a sweet brother he is :}

@2006-stupid-thatsme

I am not familiar with those sites.. <:0

<XD Mike was kind of a jerk though. Now don't get me wrong, his voice was killer! But I don't think he really changed as a person by the end of the movie.

If they had put him in the second movie he was gonna need a major personality change in order for me to like him <XD

@candyglumboy

I think its alright. :0 And if I have drawn one of the characters? I cant remember doing it <XD

(In relation to this post)

Aw, I'm sorry that you have to deal with all this. It doesn't sound fun that's for sure. :( But thank you for the info! :DD

@littlelightfish

XDD IM GLAD YOU LIKE HIM!! And these are all good questions! Unfortunately I haven't thought much about these things- so let me make some of it up on the fly- <XDD

I imagined he likes to mess with the crew sometimes and pull little pranks. Its all in good fun! Just a bit of goofin off. And he mostly does it to Coco XDD

Now his favorite crew member.. hmm.. I feel like that might be Ellie. Despite her cold exterior, she had a big heart and really does love her crew. Even the butthead that is Tuna <XDD I can see her getting the other crew members to lay off and give Tuna some space. She is known for cooking food to everyone's specific preference, no matter how much longer it takes to make. And she would do the same for Tuna. Cooking what ever he wants, how ever he wants it cooked.

That really means a lot to Tuna.. if he can count on anything, he can count on Ellie to cook a perfect meal just for him.

Now the crew member that understands him the most would be who ever has had similar experiences to him, right..? In that case it might be Pinwheel. Orrr Coco.. maybe Spidercrab..? Ah, I'm gonna need to do some more thinking on that one <XD

The crew member he doesn't feel so comfortable around could be Cuttlefish. She is very mysterious and some would even say untrustworthy. He is probably spooked by her and doesn't fully trust her. Though I'm also experimenting with Tuna having trouble with authority figures. So mayyybe he's less comfortable around Seafoam and Octo..?? :00

Also thank you for your enthusiasm and interest in Tuna! Its the biggest compliment to me/my OCS 🥰🥰

@raccoons-in-a-dumpster

XD Yup! Its me! And thank you! :DD

@beryl-shade

XDD Do they say that? Are there popsicles in the oceans from that game??

I'm not sure.. I'd assume so..? Keep in mind that these character were made from a game that I know next to nothing about-

Maybe? :00

@yeetmysoulintothevoid (Post in question)

No its not a sexual dimorphism thing, its all about stress, exhaustion, health,, etc.

Peach and Daisy have very thin blue markings (like their species is SUPPOSED to have) because they are well fed, well rested, and pampered as princesses.

Wario and Waluigi's blue markings are very large and puffy becuase they eat garbage, get very little to no sleep, and are fighting for their lives on the daily pretty much- if they had a saver living environment and a secure source of food, their eye bag would be much less noticeable-

Now Rosalina's blue marks are noticeable and puffy mostly due to her grief and depression. And partly because she isn't exactly.. aliiive..? Anymore..?? <:D

And yes! Everyone's ears are emotive! :}} Maybe subtly though. They can perk their ears up or droop them down, much more than a human typically can. But they cant do really fine and quick movements to improve their hearing/listen in a certain direction. Like Dogs, cats and rabbits can for example. Its all slow and mostly intentional movements.

Nope, I don't have plans to finish that comic. The writing was horrible and everyone acted super out of character all in the name of angst. 👎👎👎

If anyone wanted to know the ending, Kwazii was gonna patch Barnacle's face and the rest of the crew was gonna show up in the gups. They get him in a gup, take him to the octopod and he gets situated in the sick bay.

Then Kwazii and Peso have this stupid emotional talk about how Peso feels bad for not being there for the captain and blah blah blah. VERY out of character for Peso. The entire point of Peso's character is that he "helps any creature who is hurt or sick, no matter what." There is literally nothing on earth that could have stopped him from helping his own Captain, no, his friend in his time of need. That writing is juuuust so dumb.

Plus Kwazii was a total idiot in that comic- realistically Kwazii would have taken that situation very seriously and would have listened to anything that Peso told him to do. And even if for some reason he was being stupid and continued to approach the Captain, Peso would have stopped him.

And this is even beyond the fact that this whole comic starts with Captain Barnacles doing a series of very stupid and irresponsible things that he would not do. And then a perfect storm of "whoopsies!" happen ever so perfectly to have him wind on that island.

Over all its a veeeeery bad comic. Not my best! 0/10 would NOT draw it again! XD I don't even want to re-write it to make it good. Becuase that whole situation just wouldn't happen from the start.

Although, I am keeping the idea that Barnacles has a very sensitive nose/face. (Due to him being a polar bear with many muscles and nerves in his face) And if he ever got hit in the nose/face? It would be incredibly painful and he would be very disoriented for a time. But the rest of that comic can go down the drain XD

#my response #octonauts #undertale #deltarune #cookie run #cookie run kingdom #cookie run ocs #my ocs #super mario bros #factual fam

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carlyraejepsans · 5 months

Note

I really respect your dedication to these characters and the fine nuances in writing them with pinpoint accuracy but lord it must be really really hard to find any amount of fanfics by people who feel the same and don't unintentionally do something kinda ooc once that makes you stop reading a story. With short comics and art and whatever you have to go out of your way to mischaracterize characters since there's not a ton of internal substance, they're just kissing or telling a line of dialogue, but with fic it's so descriptive and so much more thought on how a character's inner workings carry on, and I feel a lot of people have fun writing fanfiction in a way that does not result in 100% accurate characterizations because that would take so much continual, constant effort and very thorough character analysis skills and applications to get right pretty much all of the time. I'm not sure what I'm trying to say beyond it must be tough for you specifically to find stories that don't annoy you- or perhaps that is not accurate! I don't read much fic so I don't know, it just seems like it'd be exhausting from an outside perspective

BAHAHAHA the eternal struggle of the Hater. I'm kind of obsessed with how you described it here. You're mostly correct! And kind of missing a crucial detail at the same time.

It's true, it is extremely difficult to find fanfiction that agrees with me--especially for a fandom like Undertale with 1) a very young audience and 2) a very heavily character-centric form of storytelling, which inevitably results in nuanced personalities that are hard to grasp without full context (which means analyzing the canon... a lot!)

There's two very important things you should note though!! Undertale is a HUGE fandom. As hard as finding really accurate fics might be, they ARE out there, and when i find them I'm so invested in their accuracy and analysis that I enjoy them 10000 times more than someone who just... doesn't think about this stuff. It's about quality over quantity.

The other thing is: being this ""picky"" and analysis focused doesn't actually stop me from reading fanfiction. Just lately I've been going through the entire fandom tag on ao3 in reverse alphabetical order and trying out anything that doesn't immediately put me off via tags/summary. Is there a lot of stuff that reads ooc or that I just plain don't like? like, a LOT of it? absolutely. But at the end of the day, that ALSO becomes an exercise in analysis. Why did this portrayal come off as ooc? Was the character voice accurate to canon? If not, what made them differ? Was it the way the character acted, rather? Is this the author's bias or exaggeration? Why do I feel like it would be at odds with the person they are in canon? Would they ever be driven to behave like this? What would push them? Was that accurately justified in this fic? and so on.

it's true that engaging with fandom on the regular can heavily skew your perception of the original, but i feel that engaging with fanon and habitually returning to the canon as a point of reference, as contrast, as fact checking, is one of the best ways to truly understand both the characters and the fan communities that they gathered around them. overall, it's good fun!! well worth the occasional cursed content, and even then it gives me something to inflict psychic damage on my friends with.

#answered asks

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blossom-hwa · 1 year

Text

a detailed analysis of rizz levels across pretty much every group I stan

chip ( @wingkkun ) and I had a very interesting conversation about this a couple months ago. here are the results, complete with direct citations and paraphrasing from our instagram dms. I do not take constructive criticism but I will entertain debates in my inbox. think of it as a scientific peer review

(disclaimer: all of this is meant in good fun and is not meant to be rude or harmful to any member I talk about. I love every one of them and in the end this is all just a joke!)

TXT.

soobin: below the charts. this man has negative infinity rizz. less rizz than me and that’s saying something bc I only ever flirt on accident if I tried to do it on purpose the world would explode. the limit of his rizz as you approach any point is negative infinity and I do not feel sorry for saying this. in the wise words of chip, “we like you bc ur ultimate cringefail (affectionate)”

taehyun: net positive rizz. I'm definitely biased but also do not argue with me I will bite your face off. the amount of rizz he has is a true problem and I am not immune to it (neither are you). he’s so cute and he’s also so hot and smart and I'm never going to shut up if I keep going so I'll stop. positive rizz. off the charts. do not @ me.

beomgyu: please refer to hoshi’s bit below. they are one and the same. beomgyu had too much rizz it was eating him alive so his body compressed and converted it (lossless compression) to another form and now he’s a chaos monster who screams for a living and oozes what remains of his original rizz onstage. we love him for it

hyuka: +10 rizz because he’s cute. no more than that because he’s an overgrown baby (affectionate). he gives me a lot of brain damage but it’s just because of his plushies and his little brother energy so I feel like he could manipulate me with his rizz but it would only go so far before I either pat his head bc he’s so cute or I punch him in the face bc of the annoying sibling energy therefore he only gets ten points

yeonjun: after going through the entirety of our conversation I realize now that chip and I forgot to diagnose the rizz levels of the fourth gen it boy so now I'm pulling some shit out of my ass. net positive but low magnitude. I give him +3. mostly because he’s got insane stage presence and has the ability to kick beomgyu in the face but he’s soooooo pathetic. possibly reading skye’s ( @warmau ) thoughts about him have influenced me but he’s pathetic hence the very very low magnitude of rizz. I am not sorry

SEVENTEEN.

mingyu: rizzless. I direct you to this post I made because it’s factual and explains his horrifically low levels of rizz. do not be fooled by this man’s muscles he’s constantly screaming crying throwing up to be told he’s sexy but the second someone does tell him that he’s a blushing anime girl (affectionate) and we love him for it but he’s rizzless. negative off the charts

jun: rizzless but not in the same manner as mingyu he just does not know what rizz is. very similar to juyeon in this manner. the8 or dino have definitely tried to explain rizz to him before but he simply does not understand and does not care to. even if he did understand it I'm still not certain he’d care which gives him a lower magnitude rizz than mingyu which is better even if it’s still negative

the8: positive rizz with quite a high magnitude. I can’t quantify it but it doesn’t even matter because even though he has rizz he doesn’t use it. he’d rather tell us to stop having a parasocial relationship with people behind our little computer screens and ooze rizz via charisma on stage instead and I can respect that.

seungkwan: so much rizz. so much fucking rizz have you ever seen this man complimenting female idols on shows. have you ever seen this man tell idols they’re pretty and wonderful and beautiful in every which way without batting a damn eye and with so much earnestness I blush. cannot believe chip ever thought this man as on the same level of rizzlessness as soob smh

vernon: 0 rizz, but this does not mean he is rizzless. rizz is a spectrum and having 0 levels of it just means you are rizz neutral. purely neutral. no one has purely neutral rizz the way vernon does he’s simply so special. that one gose episode where he showed up in that rainbow hoodie with red glasses? that’s the epitome of rizz neutrality

s.coups: refer to daeyeol’s bit below. handsome. reliable. have you seen him with kkuma. I melt every time. unfortunately he is still horrifically pathetic and though we adore him for it this does unfortunately decrease his rizz levels drastically. without it he’d probably be somewhere at positive infinity but now he’s at like +8. the world knew that if coups wasn’t pathetic enough he’d be too powerful so they had to humble him.

hoshi: he doesn’t have rizz but it’s not like the nerds where their rizz levels are just buried in the negatives it’s more like the magnitude of his rizz was so high that it has since been compressed and turned into something else. so he has no rizz but it’s not because he was born pathetic, it’s because it was converted due to the law of conservation of rizz (real)

wonwoo: similar to taehyun in that they’re both very positive but slightly different. yes they are both gym rats yes they are both token introverts (sort of) but wonwoo is a gamer. their rizz is fundamentally different but they’ve evolved to be similar due to their personalities kinda like wings on bats and birds. as you can tell it’s been a while since I took biology

jeonghan: similar to lino in that he has rizz but he stole it. the difference between them is that lino has some natural organic rizz while jeonghan was born with none and stole all that he owns now. without this stolen rizz he would be a limp noodle dragging himself across the earth but now he’s a fairy. life isn’t fair

dino: negative but low magnitude. the first number I gave him was -14 I don’t really know why it was -14 specifically but the point is it’s supposed to be low magnitude. recently he began climbing my bias list and chip yesterday convinced me to change his magnitude to to something lower so I now give him -4. I am easily swayed

joshua: positive rizz in the same manner as jangjun et al. the man is fucking insane. insane charisma but also just plain insane. I'm not entirely convinced he didn’t steal some of it but while jeonghan freely admits that he stole it joshua keeps evading the question. there is a venn diagram of jangjun et al and lino et al and joshua is in the intersection

woozi: I considered an intersection between chanhee and the8 and I think woozi falls into it. perhaps I've just been gaslit into thinking he has positive rizz but let’s just roll with the thought. has some rizz like the8 (less than the8 though) but does not care to use it (like chanhee) and also doesn’t really care that it’s there. he just kinda lets it be

dk: net negative but low magnitude. I originally gave him -13 to bc I thought he was a step above dino but not by much. I still kind of think this way so I'm elevating him to -3 since dino got elevated to -4. sorry dino I think you’ll always be one step behind no matter how big of a crush I have on you

STRAY KIDS.

lino: has rizz but in the wrong way. the man touches butts for a living AND he has cats he’s got to have some rizz hence the net positive but he also definitely stole some. please refer to my comments on this post for details he definitely does not organically have all this rizz but he’s stolen it and now it’s his you can’t ask for it back

chan: also has rizz but in the wrong way but also differently from lino. chan should not have as much rizz as he does but he’s got that “libra sun scorpio venus rizz” (chip) which makes him extremely dangerous. he’s a loser and for that I'd give him negative rizz but unfortunately he has an aura that separates him from the likes of mingyu (it’s the dilf dad energy) so he has net positive rizz of a dangerous magnitude.

jisung: we welcome another member to the ranks of the negative infinity rizz. do I even need to explain. does the anime girl babygirl pathetic cute energy not already do enough explanation for you. I should not have to spell out the fact that this man is rizzless at every point on the mathematic plane. I love him to death but that will not save him from the rizzless fate

seungmin: please refer to jangjun in the honorary mentions below. his rizz applies here. positive rizz. high magnitude. ridiculous for a man of his caliber but here we are. he’s got some weird mutant rizz and that’s all I can really say like.....what do you become when you have rizz levels +69,420. what do you fucking do.

changbin: fluctuates between +10 and -10 like a sine curve (please refer to mingi’s bit for more information). his positive rizz is similar energy to yunho but louder and his negative rizz is just pathetic baby boy-ness. I adore him. big muscle men who are soft. I don’t have a section for wonho but if I did they’d be of very similar types.

hyunjin: negative rizz. he’s an only child what else do I need to say. ferret energy. flails around. long limbs that he doesn’t know what to do with. so much baby girl energy I always want to laugh at him (affectionate). lovely boy so very lovely with such fucking negative rizz

felix: like jangjun and co his rizz got converted but unlike jangjun and co it was not converted to insanity. it was converted to something...... alien. idk how to explain it. asymptotic rizz, according to chip. weird behavior as x approaches infinity. I agree with this assessment. nothing earthly explains how this man is so ethereal so I have concluded that alien magic converted his rizz to ethereality

jeongin: ok so I did say vernon is the only one who’s truly reached rizz neutral but jeongin is pretty close. similar vibes. they’re both slightly insane of course but they are also more than likely to just stand there and vibe. this gives off rizz neutrality. jeongin is less neutral (probably tipped in the negative direction) but he’s getting there.

ATEEZ.

seonghwa: rizzless this man is the nerdiest nerd ever he is RIZZLESS. magnitude infinity in the negative region of the graph. he and soobin are two sides of the same coin the latter is a lanky little gamer dude and the former is a Star Wars nerd with a display case for his figurines. the absolute most negative rizz ever (affectionate)

yunho: oooooooo my god. positive rizz if I've ever seen one. so much rizz. so much fucking rizz. the magnitude of his rizz is off the charts and unlike the other insane ones his rizz didn’t get converted so he is DANGEROUS. if you ever meet this man in the wild run in the other direction you will not survive his pull. in the wise words of chip “yunho has |rizz| (absolute positive rizz)”

mingi: his rizz...fluctuates. like a sine curve idk. he alternates between having so much rizz it hurts and so little rizz it’s laughable. yes I have definitely been influenced by having seen him in concert twice (do NOT bring up the fact that he became a wrecker after the second). he knows he’s hot and will use that to the best of his ability but he’s also kind of pathetic and for some reason it doesn’t balance out so he fluctuates

jongho: has rizz. does not care to use it. falls in the same camp of the the8-ers (refer to the seventeen section) in which he prefers to simply ooze rizz onstage and kill everyone’s heart there instead of flirting with fans. respectable. also incredibly dangerous. everyone wants to hug him but if you try to his rizz will snap you in half but if not huggable then why hug shape?

hongjoong: net positive rizz but he’s convinced he has more than he does so I dock several points due to excessive confidence. panics too much when wooyoung tries to kiss him for me to restore them. if he gay panicked a little less then I might consider him having as much rizz as he says he does but alas he does not and so I will not.

san: -10 rizz. negative but not too negative. he’s really cute and really hot but also really pathetic and I say this with the greatest fondness imaginable. remember that one poll where tiny voted him as the person they’d least like to vacation w bc he’d stay inside (don’t worry me too san)? same vibes. his patheticness outweighs his hotness and while they’re close, ultimately patheticness wins out. sorry not sorry

yeosang: net positive rizz but he does not use it. this is not by choice. he just doesn’t know how to. in fact I'm not fully convinced he knows what rizz is. in this manner he is somewhat similar to juyeon (refer to the boyz section below) except where juyeon’s rizz is negative infinity yeosang has some positive levels. in chip’s words get well soon yeo

wooyoung: falls in the same camp as hyunjae in that he has fully negative rizz and embraces this fact to use it as a weapon. dangerous man. fully insane. if his rizz was positive he’d be the same as jangjun and co but unfortunately he’s pathetic for hongjoong so his rizz is negative and is not handled the same way.

THE BOYZ.

hyunjae: all of Bermuda line is rizzless to the max but in different ways. in hyunjae’s case he knows he is rizzless and fully accepts and utilizes this to his benefit. you’re telling me this man doesn’t know how pathetic (fond) he is? he’s self aware and will absolutely use this against you. as dangerous as those with high positive levels of rizz. watch the fuck out

younghoon: fully rizzless bc he’s in Bermuda line but is not self aware. in fact he protests that he does have positive rizz but look at this man. he has the energy of a dying victorian child trying to make it past this cold, cold winter. all you want to do is pat his head and coo at him to make him feel better he has no rizz. absolute negatives.

juyeon: again, completely and negatively rizzless since he’s in Bermuda line but like younghoon he is fully unaware. in a different way though. why you ask? because this man definitely has no idea what rizz is. look at his sweet little eyes and tell me he knows. that’s right. you can’t.

q: negative rizz. not as low as Bermuda line/seonghwa/soobin/etc. but still quite negative. the thing is no one ever tells him this or brings it up to his face because he’s dangerous. he may not know what rizz is but he does know what an insult is and if you say a word about his purported negative rizz levels you will not be heard from again. this is a warning.

sangyeon: has net positive rizz. it isn’t super high but given the fact that I've just said four of his members have some of the lowest rizz levels imaginable it’s relatively high in the realm of tbz. can’t really explain it but he gets this rizz from his hot tired uncle energy that no one is immune to. have you seen him with his nephews? don’t argue with me.

(at this point chip told me to stop making rizz comments bc their stomach hurt. I did not stop)

kevin: rizz levels -1. not quite negative infinity. in fact pretty far from it. still negative though and he’ll never recover from that. I'd say that I'm sorry but I'm really not no matter how much this man works out I will never be able to stop laughing at him to his face (in best friend fashion). love you kev

new: negative. not horrifically so like Bermuda line but still more negative than kev. you may be thinking what the fuck lina new has so much rizz wdym? you’re wrong. he doesn’t have rizz and he doesn’t care. his lack of care gives the illusion that he actually has positive rizz but he does not. do not be fooled

haknyeon: POSITIVE RIZZ. do not question the positive rizz of tangerine boy ju haknyeon. it may not be positive infinity but I do say he’s around +50ish and given the patheticness that surrounds him that’s pretty fucking good I’d say. so much rizz. so much true rizz. I love him

sunwoo: the most negative fucking rizz ever except he’s convinced it’s positive. see without this unfounded conviction his rizz would just be somewhere around -50 and he’d be fine because Bermuda line exists but nooooo he decided to ruin it by being overly confident in his rizz powers so now he’s at negative infinity and one. sucks to suck.

jacob: (chip came up with this one) he has beomgyu and jangjun levels of rizz so like rizz off the charts but while a lot of it was converted into weirdness some of it stayed rizz so. hm. a tamer version of jangjun if you will. however beware because his rizz is once again increasing since he stopped playing league. watch out.

eric: negative rizz. same boat as sunwoo. their rizz magnitudes are the exact same and in the same direction (negative obviously) but it’s in a slightly different manner. both have unfounded confidence in their imaginary positive rizz levels but eric’s is in the manner of a teacher’s pet who thinks they’re popular while sunwoo is just plain mad

HONORARY MENTIONS.

jangjun (golden child): positive rizz and it’s terrible. I can’t tell you what the number is (it’s +69,420) but it’s really fucking high and I hate it. most of his rizz has been compressed and converted like hoshi’s to something resembling insanity but unlike hoshi there is a dangerous amount left. beware this man

daeyeol (golden child): +5 rizz. he’s handsome and reliable and if we got married I would be able to trust him to get things done. similar to sangyeon in that he’s got hot tired uncle energy but he’s also pathetic so he only gets five rizz points

mark (nct): negative rizz if I've ever seen one, but missing the negative infinity rizz by one point. I just need him differentiated from soobin and jisung and the other pathetic ones. mark is pathetic but I give him one point out of pity

beomhan (??): I don’t know anything about this guy except that he can’t cook and has high cholesterol problems from eating too many eggs but he’s in the same group as jangjun and co

keeho (p1h): I also don’t know anything about this guy except what chip has told me but I think he’s similar to chanhee and chip thinks he’s on sunwoo’s level. do with this information what you will

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batsplat · 14 days

Note

do you have any more thoughts on sete&vale rivalry? ps. love your blog!

I ALWAYS have more thoughts about the sete/valentino rivalry and if there is one person on this website who wants to read them then let's fucking go. so my issue is that when I looked at this ask the first time I thought I could maybe give like. a few thoughts. just some casual fun takes. the problem is I've been doing that anyway in my other posts, but there's really only so much point in doing that if I'm not providing any context on events that are by this point two decades old. so. time for some actual context

this isn't going to be exhaustive by any stretch of the imagination. what I'm covering here is two/three incredibly interesting years of motogp that deserve to be experienced and studied in their entirety, but alas I am but one poster on one microblogging website. so this is very much going to be the whistle-stop tour of explaining feuds, before a little bit of analysis to cap things off. (would like to state for the record that I called it 'whistle-stop' when this post was a lot shorter than it is now, but I'm leaving this paragraph in because it'll get funnier the longer you scroll. it's still not exhaustive but it's a lot more exhaustive than I thought it'd be when I wrote those sentences)

this rivalry began in an odd, uncertain period of valentino's career, at a time when valentino had essentially won motogp. he had just concluded his 2002 season and sealed his second premier class title in the process, with his results that year consisting of eleven wins, four second places and a single retirement. it was more or less as good as it gets, crushingly dominant, the undisputed lord and master of all he surveyed etc etc etc. and yet it was also a time where he was ill at ease with his role within the sport and was struggling with motivation, so much so that he increasingly found himself no longer taking joy in his racing. he ended up being so disillusioned with the existing state of affairs that he decided to make a radical move to redefine himself, to control his own destiny, to take the step from a great to a legend

which is all very abstract, in a way, removed from the realities of racing or indeed competition. this was a time in which no other rider could come close to matching valentino as a competitor and everyone basically knew as much. it adds an odd flavour to the challenges an athlete faces, where the success is such that it warps everyone's understanding of what success even looks like (not helped by how the last dominant athlete in the sport, mick doohan, also had a silly good track record in his prime). you could say, if you want, that 2002 is all about sowing, all about vale having so much success that it's started to feel a bit too easy, where he was just coasting on a wave of his own brilliance. 2003? well, now we've gotten to the reaping stage, where he's suffering under the expectations he himself has created, and all this winning is maybe already getting kind of boring

the first task in sports is not to be better than everyone else - it is to win. being better helps, but it has never been strictly necessary. there was no serious question at any point during his rivalry with gibernau who the better rider was between the pair of them. perhaps even more importantly, there was no question who the stronger between the two of them should be. over the years, valentino would have to deal with more than his fair share of young talent who proved they could match him in ability, the riders who had already long been marked for greatness and had the potential to be valentino's successors to the throne. gibernau was not that man - he was older, he was less accomplished, he was a revelation rather than anointed. it's one thing to be challenged by an alien, quite the other to be beaten by a bog standard human. especially if the bar for what constitutes being 'beaten' is set pretty low - never mind full seasons, should you even be losing individual races to this new challenger?

the rivalry between valentino and sete is not one of two equals, neither in ability nor in how their success was measured. but it became one that spawned a close title fight, courtesy of valentino unexpectedly wrestling the yamaha into title contention against his former employers at the first time of asking. valentino's main pressures in those years did not come because of any other rider, including sete - they stemmed from external forces such as honda or the press, from his internal struggles, and eventually were self-imposed in his decision to take a step into the unknown and join yamaha. the shape that this rivalry took reflected the disparity between the pair of them at every stage. valentino's biggest enemy during those years only ever could have been himself - so could sete exert himself upon this narrative at all? was he only relevant as long as valentino let him be? has he been so conclusively beaten that he has allowed valentino to erase him from his story entirely?

the first task in sports isn't to be better than everyone else... but it usually isn't quite this low down on the order of priorities. when 'being better than everyone else' is taken as read, then where does the narrative tension come from? usually, this is the kind of issue that commercial stakeholders and broadcasters and journalists and fans care about - not the dominant athlete of the time. but valentino is a storyteller and he does care. he can't handle stagnation. he can't handle being bored. he needs something to fight for and someone to fight and he needs all of it to happen on his own terms. the rivalry between valentino and sete becomes about everything except who the better rider is - and they happen to be perfectly suited characters for a rivalry such as this. for something that feels a little removed from the typical pressures of competition, of simply doing all you can to win, to beat the other guy, in whatever way you can, to rack up one victory after the other... but what we're primarily talking about here isn't numbers, it's theatre. it's show. and it's about two men who are particularly in tune with the artifice of it all, who are particularly concerned with how the world perceives them. valentino always knows where the camera is, always knows to play to it - and sete knows where it is too, which is what valentino uses to unsettle him to the point of despair

so, that's the set-up. let's bring in the context. what I'll cover here is mostly limited to what transpires during the years in which the rivalry is at its most prominent, aka 2003-05-ish, and mostly stays away from its legacy or repercussions. the first bit covers sete's emergence as valentino's rival, then how he becomes honda's best hope of stopping valentino, then the controversy that ruined their relationship, and finally how sete falls apart. after that, I'll give some of my thoughts about the rivalry and how it functions as a narrative. but again, there's a lot that's being left out here - like the bits of my notes that are just a tally of every misfortune that befalls sete gibernau post-qatar 2004. remember, kids: curses are a nasty nasty business and should be wielded with care

becoming the challenger

sete's rise to becoming a legitimate title contender was in some ways as unlikely as the manner of his downfall. born in december of 1972, so six-and-a-bit years older than valentino, his grandfather was a titan in the motorcycling industry and he grew up both affluent and surrounded by bikes. he's unusually well-educated for a rider, proficient in languages even by paddock standards - and, like valentino, a bit of an aberration from the mould of the stereotypical nineties bike racer. the reputation he had was for being a bit too vain, a bit too metropolitan, too self-absorbed to be suited to the rough-and-tumble of elite motorcycle racing

by the time he signed with the gresini honda team in 2003, his track record was very far from that of a title contender. after various wildcards in the mid-nineties, he'd finally managed to get a permanent seat first in 250cc and then in 500cc. eventually racing for repsol honda and taking doohan's bike when he was injured badly enough to force his retirement, sete's initial promise remained largely unfulfilled and he was dropped by honda after the 2000 season. he joined suzuki, who were struggling immensely in the aftermath of their title courtesy of kenny roberts jr. sete did get his first premier class win in valencia in 2001 in mixed conditions - a rare race that year valentino did not win after making a conservative tyre choice at a track he's in any case always been dreadful at. in 2002, suzuki was still struggling, though the wet conditions in estoril gave sete a chance for an early duel with valentino until he crashed. valentino said afterwards he felt sorry for sete (in a nice way not a condescending way)

^sete's first ever win came in valencia far far ahead of valentino in a lowly eleventh place. incidentally, it was there that a year prior vale's late charge to an increasingly plausible rookie 500cc title came unstuck. it's fair to say it's not exactly his favourite circuit on the calendar, which some might call a sign of good taste

and then, the move to gresini honda in 2003 - to which he also brought his sponsor telefonica, who became the team's title sponsor for the next few years. as I'm sure fans of the current era are able to appreciate, while it might have been a step from a factory to a satellite squad it was a very obvious competitive upgrade. he may not have had the newest spec of honda, unlike his teammate, but he was still satisfied with his machinery and his new team

sete and valentino had already had a good relationship at this point, a friendship that extended beyond paddock walls. they'd get drunk together after races, party together on ibiza over the summer holidays - and of course there's the story of sete giving valentino advice upon his transition to 500cc. previously, valentino's most notable rivals had come from other factories, whether kenny roberts jr on the suzuki or max biaggi on the yamaha. but honda had poached biaggi for the 2003 season and - after a brief blip in 2000 -were establishing themselves once again as the overwhelmingly dominant force of the sport, boasting an embarrassment of riches both in the engineering department and in their formidable host of riders. they were the undisputed kings of motogp and were comfortable in knowing that their bikes were so good that the riders were far from essential, all easy enough to replace if they had to be. all of which meant valentino knew going into that year that his most significant challenges were likely to come from within his own house, though he would hardly have expected sete to lead the charge

but then, a tragedy in the very first race of 2003 changed things. in suzuka, gresini honda rider daijiro kato crashed and hit one of the walls, later succumbing to his injuries. kato had been a 250cc champion and was widely tipped as a future premier class champion, japan's best hope for a first in that category. even though gibernau and kato had only been teammates for a short time, sete had immediately felt welcomed within the team and had worked together closely with kato over winter testing, including helping him out in the wet conditions in which kato had long struggled

the brutality of racing is such that two weeks later, the grid were to line up again at welkom. and it was there that gibernau secured an unlikely, fantastical win from pole position holding off valentino along the way. he dedicated his victory to his fallen teammate - who he said had been with him when he was riding. he wore kato's #74 on his leathers for the rest of his career. whether rightly or wrongly, paddock consensus was that the events had transformed gibernau, had made him into someone who took his racing more seriously, had made him finally commit all his mind and body and soul to riding, to fighting, to winning

^pointing up to the sky at welkom 2003. the number 74 is prominently placed on his upper chest to the right

it also had another effect. kato's death sparked controversy due to the layout of the suzuka track, the decision of the officials not to halt the race, and the rescue workers who had failed to follow proper medical procedure in moving him. both sete and valentino reportedly said they would not race there again, and it did end up being the last year grand prix motorcycle racing came to that track. it also prompted conversations about what could be done to better protect riders - and sete was one of the main figures behind the idea that riders themselves should have more of a say in safety standards. this led to the establishment of the safety commission, which back then included fewer riders but both valentino and especially sete involved themselves in

^sete at a safety commission meeting

did the tragedy really transform sete's fortunes as a racer? perhaps, though the switch to honda and a team he grew so fond of surely would have helped in any case. still, the contrast in his results and how he went about achieving them is stark; we'll never know for certain, but it's understandable why it's such a popular interpretation. another factor, too - despite some initial resistance, sete ended up inheriting kato's factory-spec machinery and was now riding the same bike as the other primary contenders of that season. the first half of his 2003 quickly cemented his new status within the factory, winning again in le mans, and then in assen. by the time they reached the halfway point of the season after donington park, sete was in second place in the standings, just clear of biaggi and only 34 points behind valentino

which is where we get back to valentino and ask ourselves what the hell that man thought he was playing at. did he really believe that it was all right to sit on a mere 34-point lead halfway through the season? was valentino, at the tender age of twenty four, already washed? was he finished? was this the beginning of the end? had he already peaked? did he just not have it in him any more?

obviously the answer to all of those things is 'no' and also 'what?' - but these were questions that many, most notably in the italian press, were in all seriousness asking anyone who would listen. now, valentino had theoretically just won in donington, except en route he had overtaken under a yellow flag and was controversially stripped of that victory after the fact. which meant that - you may want to hold onto something here - valentino had gone for a whole three races without winning. that's right. three races. granted, he'd already secured three victories that season and had been on the podium every single race, but the pressure was beginning to mount on valentino to deliver. it wasn't just the three race losing streak, but also the emergence of sete as a serious rival and how he had gotten the better of valentino - first at welkom by holding him off, then at le mans by beating him on the very last lap. valentino had also separately fucked up in a duel against capirossi for the victory in catalunya (funnily enough not one of the valentino duels there everyone remembers), eventually making a big enough mistake he had to spend the rest of the race recovering to second. honda had expectations, the italian press had standards, and the sheer dominance of his 2002 campaign meant that even the slightest dips in form translated into criticism of valentino and speculation on the state of his mettle or lack thereof. and things were about to get even worse

last race before the summer break and they're headed to the sachsenring - and here we were provided with a classic valentino performance right until the very moment where it wasn't. when sete caught up with him, valentino let him go ahead to study him from behind and crack him at the very end. he made his move on the penultimate corner of the race and successfully got ahead - but made a mistake in picking a very tight line into the final corner and lost too much speed, allowing sete to beat him to the line by a mere 0.06s. the general perception was that this had been a winnable race, and that it had been lost, more than anything else, out of arrogance. he could have attacked earlier - and if he didn't, then at the very least he should have been smarter about the final corner. he had allowed sete to beat him in a straight fight for the third time that year, who was now on four wins that season to valentino's three. all this meant that valentino's winless streak had been extended to four. that's right. you heard me. valentino rossi, the man they call the goat, had the audacity to go a whole. four. races. without. winning. the italian press had a field day and were calling for blood, and who could blame them?

^sete gibernau posing for a photo with a washed-up loser

luckily, valentino had the summer break to go off and clear his head and think about what he'd done. it was a good chance to get away from the constant scrutiny and criticism that had come during a year in which he'd already been feeling discontent with honda from the very beginning. the perception was that valentino had had it too easy and was resting on his laurels, no longer taking racing seriously enough, coasting on past successes that he was finding it hard to replicate - never mind his 29-point lead in the championship standings. so valentino ends up doing what is sensible in that situation. has a hot girl crisis. goes to ibiza. gets his hair dyed red. rocks up at the paddock for brno with his cool new hair as a bit of a throwback - he's still that guy who knows to have fun, he won't let any of this get to him, he's not going to take any of this too seriously

here's a more in-depth post on brno 2003 including, of course, his celebrations. to summarise - he won a tight thriller of a race and this time beat sete to the line, just about. then he celebrated by having a bunch of his fans dress up as convicts and donning his own cap and ball and chain - a 'prisoner of his own success', if you will. another step was taken that weekend on the road that would eventually lead him to abandoning honda and signing with yamaha. and here he is in his autobiography talking about his disillusionment with honda. he's not the first athlete to feel unhappy within his team, not the first dominant sportsperson to struggle to find motivation. still, when you consider how long his career ended up lasting, there's something remarkable to how quickly it threatened to turn joyless to him. if he were one of those athletes who just needed to win to be happy, he would have been fine within honda

but that's what valentino's all about, isn't it. within honda, under the ferocious glare of the italian press, he felt trapped. he felt imprisoned. he felt burdened by the expectations that his own victories had placed on his shoulders. it isn't enough for him simply to win. not if the winning isn't happening on his own terms. not if it's just another way in which honda can show off how superior their bike is. just another means for the italian press to ramp up pressure on him in the future. if valentino doesn't win, then well, it'll be gibernau. it'll be biaggi. who cares? valentino isn't essential to honda's success - the bike is. and vale decided he could no longer accept that. he returned to his roots in brno with the haircut and the celebrations and the candlelight meetings with yamaha that demonstrated his determination to forge his own path. winning is a part of him; when he wins he uses it to express himself, to define both who he is and who he is not - which is where, of course, the rivals enter the picture. valentino delineates his self against the other as much as anyone does, expressing his identity both as a racer and as a person by drawing the line between himself and his enemy and making a spectacle of what separates them. you can only win when you beat someone else, and valentino has always understood that the vanquished is very nearly as big a part of the show as the vanquisher

but here, the relationship between valentino and sete was at the very least outwardly still warm. they were both as gracious in defeat as they were in victory - helped along by the awareness that whatever the frothing italian press might pretend, valentino was unlikely to lose that year's title. still, were tensions beginning to creep in, given how valentino retrospectively speaks in his autobiography about how both biaggi and gibernau complained he had superior machinery? how about when rumours began to fly about valentino's impending move to yamaha and sete supposedly said valentino won't have so much to laugh about the next year? or the glee valentino read on sete's face at the thought of valentino's departure from honda? another point, on the ibiza trips - it's unclear when and how many times they happened, but one source suggests they had stopped in 2003. on the other hand, the brno 2003 race commentary makes multiple references to how they'd been partying together on ibiza during the summer break (which you'd have to say is pretty remarkable in itself after a race like sachsenring), and I'm inclined to trust the race commentary on this one. so maybe it's 2004 the trips tail off... at what point then did the relationship between the two of them begin to transform from friends to true rivals, however genial to begin with? how wary had valentino already grown of sete by the end of 2003?

^age old tradition. sete buddy that kid is going to ruin you

in any case, the remainder of valentino's season was close to flawless, winning five of the six remaining races. in sepang, having already decided he was going to sign with yamaha come what may, he sealed the title with a dominant win over sete - and brought back the convict celebrations, except this time he had a big novelty key to open the big novelty lock, presumably to signify how he could finally escape. which is charmingly on the nose, yes, but there's something enjoyable about an athlete who is so very committed to making the subtext text. how better to conclude his time with honda, who he had grown so very disillusioned with? tell them how you really feel and all that

^after vale has sealed the title at sepang. sete gives him a nice little kiss before assaulting him with champagne on the podium

or - not quite to a conclusion, not yet. after all, there were still two more races to go in 2003. in phillip island, he secured one of the more spectacular victories of his career when he once again fell foul of the 'could you please stop overtaking under yellow flags' thing - but this time, was informed of the situation and his ten second time penalty during rather than after the race. furious at the penalty, he flew off, setting a blistering pace that not only gave him the requisite ten second margin over his closest challenger capirossi, but eventually meant he crossed the line fifteen seconds ahead of his countryman. he had a point to prove that day, and proved it. he might have been on the best bike, yes - but he was laughably better than anyone else riding it, and the world still hadn't seen yet all that he was capable of

then came the last race of the season and the announcement honda and valentino would be holding a press conference together afterwards, widely expected to be announcing a split that for much of the year the paddock refused to believe might actually happen. one more ride on the honda that valentino must say farewell to and will dearly miss - that unfortunately took place at valencia, an ugly bore of a track that valentino has always been awful at, the only one on the calendar he had not yet conquered. but he needed to say goodbye to his beloved bike (decked in an austin powers-themed special livery) in style, and he went on to win the race before telling the world that him and honda were parting ways. time to go to yamaha and prove the haters and losers wrong - including one sete gibernau

^honda or yamaha, friendship can survive anything <3 quite like valentino's unorthodox spraying technique in the photo on the right - sete was admirably determined to drench vale at welkom

honda's next champion?

the thing about 2004, right, is that the dominant rider in motogp had very nicely taken himself out of the picture for at least a year to try and turn that useless pile of junk into title-contending machinery. maybe rossi would start turning things around in the second half of the year and snatch an occasional win. maybe he'd put together a title charge in 2005, though that was by no means guaranteed - it was entirely plausible that his failure would be as complete as it would be spectacular. what this meant for everyone else was that they'd basically been given a freebie. a clear run at the title, as long as they could beat all the other non-rossi challengers. for a number of blokes at honda, this was the big year. biaggi, gibernau, anyone else who was feeling brave - this was the time. and honda, right, were going all in on this. rossi had the audacity, the nerve, the sheer disrespect to turn his back on them and imagine he could win without them. every rider dreamt of being decked in their colours, and valentino had walked away. they were going to throw all the considerable money and resources at their disposal behind a small army of riders, tasked not only with beating rossi but humiliating him

this is all a bit of an exaggeration, but not too much of one. as then-yamaha rider and then-valentino friend marco melandri put it in 2003, "if valentino did come to yamaha at least he would be able to give them direction with development, but he would not have a chance of winning". the best-placed yamaha rider in the 2003 championship standings had been carlos checa in seventh, and all yamaha riders combined had achieved a grand total of one podium finish that whole year. generally speaking, however, once this kind of idle speculation of 'oh imagine if he moved' actually becomes reality, the conversation does shift accordingly, and so the initial consensus of 'surely he can't win on a yamaha' of much of 2003 was already beginning to crack by the time they actually arrived at welkom. and the relationship with honda really did end on a pretty sour note, not least because valentino's former employers refused to let vale test the yamaha before his contract expired at the end of 2003 - which is generally a pretty decent barometer of whether a rider and team are parting on good terms. as valentino put it: "their attitude pissed me off. it will cost me four races, but I always knew things would be like that". in the end, obviously he was still able to make good use of the pre-season testing he did have and he was not cost "four races" - and at the very latest people had to reassess their outlook on the season when he hit the track at welkom. if anything, his immediate pace that weekend was distinctly un-valentino-like - who needs to already be fast on a friday? - and he led every session and qualified on pole. and then, he went and achieved what still remains possibly the greatest victory of his career after a thrilling battle with old foe biaggi right to the very end. sete was a very distant third

^sete drenching vale at welkom. I am once again going to do 2004 prop and let you know that some of the best races are available free online: welkom, mugello, catalunya, assen and qatar are all on youtube (they should upload phillip island but ah well ed.: for some reason phillip island has been uploaded to facebook)

of course, valentino did not have it all his own way that year. of course, sete was not suddenly replaced by biaggi as vale's prime challenger. but yes, sete will have had to readjust his expectations of valentino's season the same as everyone else. after welkom, the conversation shifted definitively from 'surely not' to 'could he really...?' - and all other contenders were informed in no uncertain terms that they were not to be granted a rossi-free season. that being said, of course this still very much looked like sete's best chance. of course this wasn't going to be as straightforward as valentino's past titles. perhaps, even, welkom had provided a somewhat illusory picture of what the competitive landscape actually looked like that season. perhaps people had been too hasty to hand the title to valentino again after welkom. a wet weather specialist, sete secured victory in a rainy jerez, while valentino struggled to get his yamaha to work in the wet and finished fourth - his first time off the podium in twenty four races. at le mans, another race in tricky conditions, sete won once again and extended his championship lead while valentino took another fourth place. the spectacle of welkom might have been a flash in the pan; it might be time to reassess the kinds of results valentino could achieve on a regular basis with that machinery

^left: valentino having fun in the wet of jerez; right: valentino's wood-themed helmet for mugello, because if you finish fourth you get a wooden medal

what followed was a pivotal stretch of three races that turned valentino's 2004 title bid from a dream to something that felt increasingly plausible, even likely. all three of these races were extremely closely fought. all three of them are very enjoyable to watch. all three of them are freely available on youtube dot com. first, they headed to mugello, a big one for both sete and valentino. valentino had won the last two races at mugello and it was the race that was more important to him than any other - so if you're sete, where better to stamp your authority on the season? the race ended up having a little bit of everything: a ferocious multi-rider scrap, a duel between the two main title contenders, a red flag and a restart due to the worsening meteorological situation that resulted in another multi-rider scrap. valentino had to make full use of his skills as well as his composure to go out and in essence win two entirely different races. after the second start he fell back as far as seventh as he figured out the grip conditions, taking his time to fuck around before eventually fucking off (or as much as you can fuck off when you only have two and a half laps left). still, sete managed to salvage a second place result and limited the points damage

^2004 is as close to a perfect season as you can get, but there is one major factor that holds it back: the colour schemes of the title contenders. extremely similar combinations of blue with a little yellow from guys who aren't even in the same factory, let alone teammates - and jorge was always way easier to distinguish from valentino than this mess. what makes this extra stupid is that valentino's actual teammate that year, carlos checa, had a RED livery and RED leathers so. okay. great job guys. anyway, cracking race, split into two halves (or well. four fifths and a fifth). apparently, sete overtook valentino at some point under a yellow flag - or, at least, valentino says he did, which is something he remembers just in time for that year's sepang press conference

so a home victory secured and a hat trick of mugello wins - time to head back to sete land and fight it out in catalunya. top five valentino catalunya duel for sure, a pretty crowded category. sete had led every single session going into the race, but in the end he came out second best in a fight that went on until the very last lap. no longer was valentino willing to let sete get the better of him in head-to-head combat, and the victory was even sweeter coming as it did on sete's home turf - and indeed valentino would establish a bit of a tradition of beating spaniards at that track. the tide was turning and increasingly it did look like valentino might actually achieve the impossible

"One hundred and five thousand screaming Spaniards roar on their hero Sete Gibernau. He's something of an unexpected hero really. After so many years in grand prix, he lived in the shadow of Alex Criville. Criville's retired, Gibernau is on the Honda, and Gibernau is leading the world championship."

^excerpt from the catalunya 2004 commentary

and then, the next race: time for assen

^still friendly and chatting before the first real trial their relationship faces. by the by, the commentary for this race references a cartoon proposing that all that valentino needs to do to keep sete behind him is to attach a mirror to the back of his bike - because sete would be too busy posing. which gives you a general sense of the tone people used to discuss sete with

coming into this race, sete had gotten two consecutive second places to valentino. his championship lead had shrunk to five points. valentino had already gotten the yamaha into race-winning shape sooner than anyone had expected, and now it increasingly looked like he might be able to achieve the week-to-week results that won championships. it also did not help that sete's defeats had come in direct duels with valentino - in the early days of that rivalry, this exact type of duel had been how sete had announced himself as a serious threat. if it came down to another direct fight between the two of them, sete badly wanted to get a win over his rival, not just for points but for pride. and valentino, conversely, wanted to press home the advantage, to bite harder when his opponent was already bleeding. if you will

this turned into a bit of a three-way tussle between those two and barros, but then barros crashed out and it was just the two of them - going into the very last lap with sete ahead. valentino, who was having to risk far more on the yamaha than he ever did on the honda, made a lunge up the inside of turn 12 and almost binned it in the following corner. nearly losing the front resulted in contact with sete, where sete's front wheel hit the rear of vale's bike and damaged the front mudguard - and in the end sete backed off just a touch, allowing vale to cross the line with almost half a second in hand

valentino was enthusiastic in his celebrations, shall we say, whereas sete... well. sete did not look thrilled. gone were the usual parc fermé exchanges, no more hugs or friendly handshakes or kisses. sete suffered his way through the podium celebrations as the wettest of wet blankets, popping the champagne for about half a second and staying rooted in place while valentino carried on doing his thing. the natural assumption would be that sete was furious not just at losing but at the manner in which the pass for the victory was executed, out of control and in a way that could have easily resulted in a crash for both of them. valentino certainly assumed as much, saying that sete was "for sure a little bit angry" (clip here, also includes sete's statement). but when it was sete's turn to speak... he just said he was frustrated at losing, as anyone would be in his situation. which, well, doesn't quite fit in with his reaction, and also doesn't entirely match up with other statements he made at the time. there are two more sets of quotes from the protagonists of the race, though I can't determine with absolute certainty in which order these things were said. here's the first (article dated day of the race):

Gibernau lost vital time in that clash and was not able to challenge on the remainder of the lap but Rossi insists he did not deliberately block the Telefonica Movistar Honda rider. "I came into the bend a little too quickly and I slightly lost control of the front of my Yamaha, which explains why I touched him, but it wasn't intentional," he said. Gibernau did not use the incident as an excuse for his defeat. "To be overtaken in the final meters after dominating the race, it's obviously gutting," said the Spaniard. "I was angry about the way he overtook me. His manoeuvre really was risky. He said he didn't do it on purpose, but it doesn't take away my disappointment."

and here's the second (article dated the day after the race):

"I made a mistake and had to brake early or I would have crashed," said Rossi, explaining why he slowed so suddenly in front of the Spaniard. "I did not even feel Sete touch me. He was very angry, but I explained what happened." For his part, and after having chance to cool down, Gibernau appeared to accept that the contact hadn't been deliberate. "I had a good chance right until the end but we touched on the last lap - Valentino explained that he almost fell and, if that's the case, then there's nothing for me to say," shrugged Sete. "These things happen in racing. We had a good battle in another great race."

if that indeed is the order in which their statements were delivered, this whole episode feels like an interesting exercise in passive aggressive feuding - sete could have of course simply gone up to valentino, supposedly his friend, and asked for an explanation, or stated his objections openly when asked about them in the presser. instead, it seems to have been valentino who offered his explanations after sete had denied even having any issue with the overtake, with sete contradicting himself later by saying he had been angry. even then, sete said it didn't "take away my disappointment", which suggests not all was forgiven. from parc fermé to the podium to the press conference, he'd used every part of his body with full effect to express his displeasure with the notable exception of his mouth. this incident hasn't really been brought up by either party since, but as far as the eye test goes the relationship sure seemed like it was pretty strained by this. with the benefit of hindsight, it stands out as a turning point in their rivalry, the first time the veneer of the gracious loser was well and truly discarded and a sour note was added to the relationship. this was also the race where the championship lead was taken away from gibernau on countback, which incidentally was the last time an independent rider led the world championship standings until... uh... *squints at notes* argentina 2018

^already post-assen - but no reason not to be civil, right? what's a little last lap assen controversy between friends. scholars will note that this is the race after which valentino engaged in some unsavoury parc fermé activities with sete's then-teammate colin edwards

for the sake of brevity, the next part of the season is mostly going to be skipped over, but to give you the sparknotes version: sete's results grew more inconsistent, and valentino gained more of an advantage, despite still having to over-ride the bike in a way that helped cause his dnf in rio (his first dnf since brno 2002 and his first non-mechanical dnf since mugello 2001). apart from a brief period where biaggi seemed like he was going to reinsert himself in the title fight, plus a sete win in brno, for the most part the tide had clearly turned in valentino's favour and that yamaha title was looking more and more like a certainty. so let's pick up the narrative at the next major flashpoint between the pair of them, at motogp's first visit to qatar

I've already written up a post that gives more information on that race and the specifics of the controversy, so I'll forgo another detailed summary of events here. the basic facts we have at our disposal are that valentino's team, whether to his knowledge or not, rubbered up his spot of the grid, and he was then penalised for it. he worked his way up from the back of the grid before crashing out of fourth place. sete won, reducing the gap separating the two riders at the top of the standings to a mere fourteen points with three rounds to go. valentino was furious at sete, at honda, at the stewards, at pretty much everyone. here are some of his remarks:

"Gibernau's victory is not real. They stole the match from us with the shameful farce of the penalty. A truly incredible situation occurred. Everyone cleans the starting 'box'. Is there a written rule? In Rio we all went to wash the track, which was dirty. The same thing happened here. In F1 the cars skid, the asphalt is cleaned with the motorbikes. After Friday's practice [before the Saturday race] we saw Biaggi's mechanics cleaning the track and we thought it was a good idea. We cleaned the track and Honda screwed up. The others have to attach themselves to something. Gibernau and his chief suspension mechanic didn't hesitate to snitch like kids. Something ridiculous. I didn't expect to get to this point. In the race I gave a lot in the early stages, after two corners I was eighth and after four laps I was already in fourth position. I spent a lot and relaxed for a moment. Unfortunately I went wide and couldn't find the curb anymore. I made a mistake, but I wouldn't have made such a mistake if I had started from the front. I hope to make up for it in Malaysia, fortunately I didn't get hurt in the crash. It went well for the finger, when I saw the blood I was scared. But the finger didn't explode."

^some of these websites have a habit of collating a bunch of different answers into one paragraph of remarks but personally I am choosing to believe he did actually deliver this as a single monologue

valentino also said he had been looking for an excuse not to speak to sete, called him a child, saying sete had essentially stabbed him in the back. and of course, so the legend goes, he infamously vowed that sete would never win another race again

who snitched?

everything up until now has been more or less just summarising events as they happened - but now we enter considerably murkier waters. we do not definitively know one way or another what happened in qatar, who said what, who was responsible for what. let's get the less important mystery out of the way first: did valentino really curse sete?

no, not in the sense of 'did valentino rossi really perform black magic' - more the question of if he ever really said it. a lot of journalists who are otherwise at least mildly reputable seem to take it as read, but also a lot of journalists are motivated to believe he said it because it makes for a fantastic story. when did he say it? to whom? one source talks about it being at the press conference of the following race, which I know for a fact is not the case. here's a source that is one of the ones to have swayed me more to the side of 'yeah maybe he did say it':

Rossi then did an interview with Italian TV. He’d hurt his little finger, really mashed it up, in the crash. And he famously said “I will make sure Gibernau will never win another race because of this”. We’ve all got a soft spot for Valentino, and I can remember thinking ‘oh God, I wouldn’t have said that if I were you. I really wouldn’t have said that…’

I know this is objectively not a lot to go on, but at least it's a commentator/journalist who was there at the time, claiming they remember finding out about it, giving a little detail about to whom it supposedly was said ('italian tv') and having an immediate response to it that they are also remembering. obviously, this too could be bogus. but, well, at the end of the day I'm with the journalists here: I too want it to be true because it is indeed a fantastic story. there has also been the suggestion, again poorly sourced, that valentino has denied saying this - or, and this genuinely would be my favourite option of them all, that he said he only meant it for that year. hate it when I place a curse on someone and it accidentally lasts too long

now that I've done my due diligence, here's the good bit: beyond a certain point, it does not matter whether valentino actually said it or not. what mattered is that everyone thought he said it - and, crucially, as 2005 wore on, it became ever more part of the discourse. it was part of the reporting of races: could gibernau finally break the curse? it was discussed extensively in the commentary: we're back in qatar, do curses have an expiration date of a year or not? there is no way that within the claustrophobic world of the motogp paddock sete would have been been able to avoid it, let alone be unaware of it entirely. (incidentally, the fact that this is the case and I've not been able to find a better source of valentino denying it makes me again feel like he did actually say it - though I suppose it'd also be pretty funny if he hadn't said it but was like. actually this is working out quite nicely for me.) assuming for a moment that valentino is not capable of literally cursing people, the 'real effect' the curse can have is only in tormenting its victim through the mere knowledge of its supposed existence

but we're getting ahead of ourselves here. whether the curse existed or not, it could only have the effect it had if valentino fulfilled its initial promise - by denying sete another win that season while securing the title for himself. so let's just quickly recap where we're at: three rounds to go, fourteen points between the two contenders. valentino went back to italy to try and fix the fucked up finger and presumably to cool off a bit. the motogp media did what it does best and spent the entire week hyping up the drama. and there was, of course, another mystery everyone was still trying to get to the bottom of: was sete really involved in valentino's penalty?

let's first tack on another question: does it even matter? of course, the truth has never been established with 100% certainty either way, and all it does is give the two parties a reason to blow up a friendship that was already getting a little bit strained. either way, the relationship between them was ruined; either way, valentino crushed sete. not just that - whether it really happened or not is one thing, but I feel just a touch more confident in asserting that valentino believed it happened, just from my extreme vibes-based analysis of how genuinely furious he seemed and how he was still referring to sete's dirty games a whole eleven years later. which, of course, doesn't in itself really tell us one way or another what actually happened. valentino can convince himself of all manner of things. if anything, his track record as well as how ruthlessly he exploited the situation to his own advantage count against believing his version of events. and, at the end of the day, only one of valentino and sete can speak to sete's involvement in the protest that caused the penalty with complete certainty. it's not valentino

and in a way, it doesn't really matter. sete is unsettled either way - because even if he did have some hand in the penalty, this is the kind of low level petty snitching athletes and their teams constantly engage in. I cannot imagine he would have thought valentino would react as he did. quite honestly, I'm not sure sete could have conceived of a rival reacting like that to anything. if sete was responsible, then valentino still managed to escalate to a level of hostility sete would never have been able to match, let alone be comfortable with. obviously, it would not be in his interest to retroactively admit any involvement in the matter, not least because he saw how valentino responded to the mere assumption of sete's guilt. it does, however, still matter in evaluating sete's assertions that the relationship between them changed more or less from one day to the next (which *gestures at the above wall of text* I'm not entirely convinced by), and in judging whether this is a feud that's entirely built on the back of valentino's delusions. was sete really completely unaware and, a separate question - was it an unreasonable assumption from valentino that he was involved? if both of those questions are answered in the affirmative, then you do have to say what follows must have been absolutely bonkers from sete's perspective. I mean, it's kind of bonkers anyway, but. y'know. even more so

the problem with actually evaluating the claims are that basically every source about it frames the whole thing differently and often in contradictory ways, to the point where even valentino's actual allegation has been shrouded in the mists of time. different journalists and commentators and authors after the fact have confidently asserted that either hrc or sete's gresini team lodged the protest - some seem to take it as read that sete did indeed have some kind of role in it, and there is no indication whether they have some kind of privileged information that backs this up or whether this is simply valentino's influence making itself felt. hrc is obviously a likely suspect, given they canonically hate valentino and are praying for his downfall and have invested a whole lot already to bring it about. then again, gresini are the ones who are actually in this championship battle - and, of course, there's the distinct possibility that all parts of honda were involved in this together. other figures that have been brought up are gresini team principal fausto gresini who it has been claimed was personally involved in making the protest - this from the stuart barker biography, which treats it essentially as established fact. the barker biography also says that yamaha was not found to be breaking any specific rules, but race direction said it was against the 'spirit' of the sport, which... okay, I'd also be pretty annoyed to be penalised for that, especially at that stage of the season. while it is of course possible that sete was not involved in his own team's actions, it does seem a little less likely that he would not have at the very least been informed. to add another twist, one version of the story that has cropped up more than once is that valentino's allegation was that sete and his crew chief juan martinez went to hrc to get them to go to race direction. also, it may be that ducati protested both valentino and biaggi (who was definitely breaking the rules). which, good on them

unfortunately this is pretty inconclusive stuff and at a certain point it feels like you have nothing better than gut feeling to rely on to choose which narrative is more convincing to you. which is annoying! where's the substantial evidence! nowhere, it appears, not that I've been able to find it - but there is one more tangible source that I haven't brought up until now. you see, dorna, in their infinite commitment to the bit, have been kind enough to make the thursday press conference at the very next race one of the very few of that era that they have uploaded in its entirety. I am talking, of course, of the pre-event press conference at sepang

^posing for a friendly post-presser photo <3 two guys just chillin' having fun having a laff

if you are an aficionado of awkward and tense and kind of awful press conferences, then you will have an excellent time with this one. I've uploaded pretty much all of the relevant bits that I'll link to as I go; they're not obligatory watching to understand the rest of the post as I will be covering them here anyway, but they sure are interesting (and funny, which is really the most important thing)

first, let's set the scene: four blokes sitting at a table. the seat at its centre sits empty. the championship leader has not yet arrived when the press conference starts, removing the opportunity for one of the most sacred rituals that preempts any motogp press conference: the vibe check. a lot has happened and a lot has been said since the relevant parties last saw each other face to face and it is unclear where the vibes will be at when the reunion happens. will they acknowledge each other? make eye contact? shake hands? speak to each other? the journalists have not had a chance to find out. and one of the two involved parties has not either

after some softball questions relevant to 'racing' and 'points' in 'motogp' and its 'title fight', the moderator finally gets to the bit everyone's actually here for: the drama [1]. at this point, sete dates both the presser and himself by saying he's been trying to block everything out with his "mp3", before expressing his sympathy for valentino and saying he doesn't hold any of valentino's words spoken in the heat of the moment against him. at some point, he delivers a couple of lines that possess the kind of concentrated narrative juice you get a sugar high from, saying "we all know valentino. I know how he really is, he's a good guy". just as he finishes answering the question, his eyes flick over to the side - and the camera pans over to valentino entering the room with a slight smirk and of course his big ass sunglasses still very much adorning his face

nicky hayden sits to valentino's left and is interviewed before valentino is - while valentino does not acknowledge sete, who is sitting to his right. when he is questioned [2], valentino initially sounds like he is intending to turn the page on the whole affair and if anything doesn't particularly want to comment any further on what has happened. he also manages to deliver a truly classic motogp rider line, saying "I have a hole in the finger, but I think it is not a big problem for ride this weekend". right! but already here, it becomes swiftly clear that he is still furious at what happened and aggrieved by the penalty. he caps things off with a nice line saying that at least he wasn't actually slower than 'gibernau' in qatar, before turning around and shaking hayden's hand and chatting to him

it immediately becomes clear that all the questions from the floor are going to be about the same thing [3], and sete looks miserably uncomfortable while valentino just comes across as incredibly surly, his smile at times taking on a mildly murderous quality. one journalist fires off an all time classic presser question with "in qatar you say you were searching for an excuse to not talk any more with sete" and again valentino side steps, half-making it sound like he's willing to move on - while sete continues to strike a conciliatory note, continues to stress how it was all just the heat of the moment. but a follow-up question to valentino gives the journalists and sete the clearest indication that this, in fact, is really happening. valentino says this is not in the past, that he'd already said what he thinks last week and is standing by it. sete looks over at him - with disbelief, with incredulity, with the air of a man who really can't quite believe the turn this has taken

if there had been any lingering doubt at how unfairly treated valentino feels, he dispels it in his answer about stewarding decisions [4]. at the end of his exchange with the reporter about it, he brings up an incident where sete overtook under a yellow flag in mugello - which, quite honestly, I had not known about and I haven't found any reference to, so maybe nobody did spot it at the time if it indeed happened. remember, valentino had gone through not one but two bad run-ins with the yellow flag situation the year before, costing him a win at donington and making him ride at his limit to reclaim the win at phillip island. did he speak about this mugello situation at the time, or has he really just carried it around with him silently for months? a professional grudge-carrier, you have to say, a true master at the art. at the next question, valentino continues putting space between himself and sete [5], saying they have been rivals for a long time and that "it's the same condition" (i.e. situation). the friendship isn't just gone, it's so gone it might as well have never existed. if you really want to read more into this than the short response deserves, you could argue he's saying the facade has been lifted, that the true nature of the rivalry has been revealed at last

and now, we get to the critical part: sete is invited to explain himself and tell the press whether he had any involvement in the penalty or not [6]. he's clearly put a lot of thought into this in the past week and decided what he should focus on is that he wanted all the grid slots to be cleaned in the interest of safety. interestingly, he says "they" blocked him from doing that, but it's unclear whether he means gresini or someone else within honda. (presumably honda couldn't have known valentino's team would fuck about with a scooter, and remember camel honda rider biaggi also got a penalty so probably not some kind of company-wide internal memo.) (I mean I guess it'd also be funny if there had been a company-wide internal memo but nobody had thought to send it to biaggi.) sete's argument is basically that he'd be a hypocrite if he'd helped lodge a protest after he himself wanted the grid slots cleaned up - but given that valentino is quite literally calling him a backstabbing bastard, I imagine he wouldn't consider adding the hypocrite tag a bridge too far. the safety commission element of it all is kind of interesting, given as we've established valentino will likely have attended too. if sete raised this at the meeting and valentino did end up discussing it with his team, did vale end up feeling suckered into making a bad choice? probably not, just a thought

anyway, back to gibernau's response. as the journalist who asked the initial question notes, this is all a lot of waffling without a clear, firm denial (I'm paraphrasing) - and a clear, firm denial would generally be a good way to go about these things. in his next answer, sete again fails to just keep things simple, though again he denies any personal involvement. and then, the journalist asks sete to account for his team, including the fact that apparently one of sete's mechanics gave evidence to race direction... and sete says he can only speak for himself

so there we have it. that's the best singular piece of actual evidence I've got for sete's involvement, and at least comes close to confirming that somebody in gresini was involved in the protest, however tangentially. obviously, this in no way confirms sete was himself involved. at least it does give valentino an ever so slightly more reasonable basis of suspicion, though obviously it all just raises more questions like 'why was a gresini mechanic even giving evidence and what about'. that bit is then of course immediately followed by an exchange that's as good a confirmation as we're going to get that it was hrc not gresini who made the protest. so. yeah. I've got nothing. we don't know. draw your own conclusions. the presser ends with another question for good measure about the relationship between the two riders. sete first tells them, more or less, that it's none of their business before sharing a nice laugh with valentino about how valentino is never going to talk to him again

cursed

the thing about that press conference is that it's all well and good and fun to use it to try and piece together what really happened at qatar, but there are more interesting things to say about it. it is in that press conference that valentino well and truly begun the process of breaking sete, and he did so completely deliberately. it's quite the little show featuring two guys who are entirely aware that they are surrounded by cameras and reporters and are reacting accordingly. sete is committed to being dignified, to being unflappable, to being magnanimous: whatever valentino said, he will forgive him. he is happy to move on. but as the press conference progresses, he is slowly made to realise that his opponent is the one who is not ready to forgive and is not ready to play nice - not even for the cameras. especially not in front of the cameras

^his poor pinkie finger :(

sete must have felt on top of the world after qatar. he had clawed back 25 points. a championship that had already seemed lost suddenly felt like it might be in his grasp once again. valentino could complain and whine and be furious for italian television, but surely this is the kind of thing that blows over. for too long, sete is under the mistaken impression that they will move on from this. for too long in that presser, sete is playing at respectability while valentino has already progressed to open hostility. it's unnerving, of course it is, to suddenly be completely cold-shouldered and ignored by a man you had thought you were on reasonably good terms with a week ago. it's unnerving for it all to happen in front of cameras, when for so long you have been striving to present a cordial, friendly, civilised image of a rivalry. him and valentino don't do all that nasty business, not like valentino and biaggi. sete's better than that and valentino has grown up a bit - this is one of those ideal rivalries people are always going on about, the ones that are ferocious on-track but respectful and even warm off it. and so, despite everything valentino had said to the press over the past week, he still manages to completely blindside sete in the moment. he still manages to leave him unsettled, and even disoriented

and so we get to the race itself, pivotal for sete and his championship hopes. to still have a chance at clinching the title, he really needs to be fighting at the sharp end of all three of the remaining races. alas, it is not to be. valentino is reinvigorated after the humiliation of qatar and coasts through the weekend on a wave of irreverent indignation - telling reporters after qualifying on pole that this result had been important "especially since it means we know which part of the grid to clean tonight". he thrives in the chaos and the frenzied speculation and the seething tension - whereas sete is nowhere to be found all weekend. valentino wins with a comfortable margin while sete finishes a lowly seventh place. a healthy thirty point lead in the championship has been restored. now, then, in victory valentino has been provided with the opportunity to really twist in the knife. sete comes up alongside him on the cooldown lap, clearly wanting to shake hands - and valentino completely ignores him, does not as much as glance in his direction. then, he stops for one of those whimsical planned celebrations that he's ever so fond of, and he cleans his grid slot with a helpfully provided broom. as valentino says afterwards, "this time I wanted to destroy the morale of everybody". and if that wasn't enough, he adds in the post-race press conference "for me, sete did the best race of the season. he has given me a lot of points, which is like a big present. I am really grateful". charming as ever

^he also came up with his own cleaning crew founded with his trusty crew chief jerry burgess, 'la rapida', and had shirts mocked up - to 'eliminate dirt from motogp'. so nice to have a supportive crew chief, isn't it? from valentino after the race: "I've been working with jeremy for four years, together we've seen all sorts of things and when I arrived here I saw him with an incredible face, disgusted, saddened. he and the team said we had to react and so we did". and as jb put it, "valentino is the sort of rider I wouldn't want to get angry. he can take you apart on the track". the text on the shirt: "we clear out rats. we disinfect, clear drains and clean starting grids. we also do night jobs - all done in six seconds [aka the qualifying penalty he'd received]"

two races to go, and it's match point rossi. he finishes first or second at phillip island and the championship is his for certain - if he doesn't do so and sete wins the race, it's hello title decider. there is barely any doubt left in people's minds, then, about who the 2004 champion will be... but it's not a done deal. in the very worst case scenario, valentino enters the final round with a slender six point advantage. he's not safe yet. he's not safe yet on the very first lap, which, it has to be said, is a lot of fun. vale gets a better start than sete does from pole, but sete overtakes him around the outside and vale is quickly pushed to third - then fourth, at which point he runs off track and makes a risky excursion into the dirt. at the very next corner, he makes a downhill overtake on two ducatis at once, and sets about hunting down sete who has built up an advantage of over a second

so, in fittingly dramatic fashion, the race comes down to a duel between the two of them, valentino stalking sete around the track lap after lap. if valentino holds his ground, the championship is his - but sete takes the win and can go into the next season with new confidence and self-belief and hope for something better. valentino does not just want to avenge the injustice of qatar; this is an investment for the future. a way of telling sete that he has not just lost this season but that he will always lose, when fighting valentino. there is a promise to be kept, after all - whether it was only supposed to apply to that season or not, valentino refuses to let sete win another race. they exchange overtakes but sete is still just about in the lead when they enter the final lap. it is here that valentino makes his move, not once but twice to make it stick. his riding in that last lap isn't egregiously reckless but certainly not risk-free, and could have ended with him in the gravel and the championship still undecided in valencia. but he's not and it isn't - and just like his first premier class title (a comparison valentino himself makes in his autobiography), his first title with yamaha is sealed on the last lap of phillip island. his championship-winning shirt is uncharacteristically stark, reading simply 'che spettacolo' ('what a spectacle/show') - and he's not wrong. this has been a show, it's been a miracle, and in the end it's been theatre. he's sealed the title in style while also getting his revenge. it's winning in the most satisfying manner you can win anything: by beating somebody you loathe. celebrations are nice, but isn't there just something special about seeing the person you despise look so wholly miserable?

sete puts on a brave face, determined to be above valentino's pettiness. he goes over, shakes valentino's hand. valentino accepts. of course he does - he's won. sete was a few corners away from denying valentino's curse before it had ever really sunk its claws in. would it have changed things, if he could simply have regained a little confidence and found his bearings again after the psychological onslaught of the sepang weekend? maybe, maybe not. of course, looking at valentino's 2005 season, you have to say valentino was almost certainly operating on a level no version of sete would have been able to match. but there's still a lot of room between 'fighting for a championship' and 'becoming a shell of the rider you once were' - and if things had gone a little differently, you do also have to say that a championship as open as 2006 was could have represented opportunity for all manner of rider. if only he'd been able to cauterise the wound in phillip island, rather than letting valentino dig his teeth in even further

^at least capirossi's having a good time :D

the championship sealed and there's but one round to go. once again the paddock must regrettably visit a track that some critics have described as 'drab' and 'soulless' and 'the enemy of good racing', and one at which valentino has only won once before. but the way to tease out a special performance from valentino is generally to give him a point to prove, add in a little spite to get the fires spitting, and he wins at the circuit for the second (and last) time of his career. in front of the spanish fans too, which must have felt particularly satisfying - and the race itself isn't all too bad in the first half (the way valentino gets past gibernau/biaggi is quite funny). home hero sete takes fourth, and that's a wrap on the 2004 championship

there's something deceptively comfortable about the final numbers: 304 points to 257. 47 points. no problem. but sports isn't just numbers; it's the story those numbers tell. valentino was furious in qatar and he made a mistake and he ended up in a position where things don't have to go all that differently for him to lose the title. the momentum was on the side of his enemy, whose confidence and morale had been given a much-needed boost. the genius of the entire sepang weekend, from the press conference to his jibes in interviews to his dominance performance-wise to the cold shoulder to the pointed celebrations, was that they all worked together to stop that momentum cold

maybe it didn't make much of a difference - valentino was always in the stronger position given he both had a points advantage and was the faster man. but faster men have lost championships before. ignore raw pace and performance edge and all of that: valentino wrested control of the intangibles - momentum, self-belief, all of those abstract things that defy rational analysis - and brought them firmly back onto his side. sete spent the entire weekend off balance, unsettled, forced to discuss things that made him uncomfortable, engulfed in a media storm he was ill-suited to coping with. all the while, valentino relished it and used it to spur himself on. by the time sete had regrouped in phillip island and was far cooler - if still respectful - towards valentino, it was already too late

in the interest of eventually finishing this post, we're not going to cover sete's downfall in that much depth. but there is still one last critical blow that valentino has to inflict to truly bring an end to the gibernau experiment. the very first race of 2005 was one that valentino particularly wanted to win - not just to inform his competitors that this year would be more of the same, but also because they were once again on sete's home soil. time for jerez

^new year, new sete! this time he's going to show that italian upstart what's what

as ever, the media had done its best to hype up this new season. sete would be getting full support from the factory (which, yes, feels like maybe they should have considered providing a touch earlier) and he made it clear he was ready for the challenges ahead, ready to get revenge and all that. the spanish had grown fonder of their unexpected challenger too, and showed up in full force to support their man in the opening race. of course, a lot of people quietly agreed that realistically speaking, the competitive picture was looking pretty ominous. 2004 should have been the season in which valentino got the yamaha project up and running, setting up a title challenge in 2005. but he was ahead of schedule and surely the yamaha would only get stronger. still, you never know, right? that's why we line up on sunday etc etc

valentino stole pole position from sete right at the end of qualifying, but crashed in warm-up and ended up using his second bike, which is never ideal. the start was already feisty from both parties, and for a while valentino was relegated back to third. but sooner rather than later, he assumed his familiar position sitting right on sete's rear tyre, showing sete his wheel here and there just to remind him where he was. remember the whole sachsenring debacle after which valentino told himself that he wasn't going to leave it that late again? well, he was actually nice and sensible here, and made a move with two laps to go, successfully passing sete for the lead

which should have been the end of it. nice and clinical, a lovely relatively stress-free culmination of a whole race's work where valentino had diligently studied his opponent's strengths and weaknesses and had formulated his plan accordingly. job done, another win on the board to start the season. except then valentino decided to make things interesting again on the very last lap by out-braking himself on the back straight and running it wide into turn 6, allowing sete back through. there's a slightly frenetic energy with which valentino immediately hops back onto sete's rear wheel, already a touch of desperation about his lunge on the inside of turn 11 where he briefly goes past - but he's in too hot and sete's back in front

what all this means is that valentino really only has one opportunity left at turn 13 and barely any time to conceive of it. there's no planning or calculation or strategy here. valentino has one option to attack if he wants to win this race. it's a dive that is instinctive rather than planned - the only calculation here is that he would rather crash them both out than let sete win the race. back then (and a bit ironic from a modern point of view), valentino's infamous dangled leg was seen as evidence that he was out of control, doing anything he could to get the bike stopped while going for a gap that wasn't really there to be gone for. they make contact, valentino manages to get the bike turned and sete goes off into the gravel, but can get the bike back on track to finish second. valentino does a wheelie over the line. sete makes a thumbs down gesture

the spanish fans decide pretty quickly whose side they're taking in this. there's booing, whistling as valentino completes his victory lap, going full ham as he pumps his fists and claps at them and does a thumbs up and waves and puts his hand on his hip and all the rest of it as they scream at him. parc fermé is tense, the eye of the storm in the midst of the deafening roars of the crowd, with sete giving vale a couple of long looks as he gets off the bike. it's all big drama, everyone consulting their teams, talks of appeals to race direction, valentino grimly satisfied while sete is aggrieved, furious - stretching out his arm, clutching it, shaking his head while shaking teammate melandri's hand. he approaches valentino, says a few words to him as he walks past - valentino is not particularly interested in engaging in conversation. the crowd demands valentino's disqualification, and also call him a son of a whore. they're also obviously still booing. and whistling. lots of noise

on their way to the podium, sete is making tortured progress, pausing for a moment in the stairwell to clutch at his arm. at this point, valentino takes a moment to take the piss out of his rival, turning to the camera with a big smile and gesturing at sete. eventually they make it to the podium and vale laps up the displeasure of the spanish crowd. valentino smirks while sete goes for a sort of pained dignity, thanking the spanish crowd for their support, claiming the moral victory and all that. the italian anthem is almost inaudible

^sete always tried to go for a kind of stoically disapproving vibe, helped along this time by his pain in the shoulder. unfortunately for him, he does just come across as thoroughly defeated. which he was

the problem that sete faces here is that, while valentino is obviously more accustomed to a rather friendlier reception, it's also not like he particularly minds the spaniards giving him a hard time. valentino has claimed his fourth victory in succession, and has done so by once again denying sete on the very last lap. he has sent a message that this new season will be exactly the same as the last and that he remains exactly as determined to make sete's life miserable. while he does seem to think sete is playing up the shoulder injury, in general sete's solemn grimaces are like catnip to him. just before the anthem, he reaches out to shake first melandri's hand and then sete's - and sete hesitates, before extending his arm to the fullest extent to shake valentino's hand with about as little proximity as is physically possible. it's good sportsmanship, but it does also as good as tell valentino he's not going to kick up too big a fuss. in a way, whatever choice he made would have played into valentino's hands. even though this time sete may have directly confronted valentino, he's still not prepared to escalate things beyond that... and valentino knows it

^one of the classic rancid vibes podiums. the hands on hips at the ceaseless spanish booing is a nice touch

this choice to avoid further escalation is one sete continues to abide by in the press conference, echoing the assen presser from the year before beat for beat. again, valentino comments that it was a great battle, that sete is surely angry but, essentially, it is what it is ("this is the racing"). again, sete congratulates valentino for the win, but refrains from complaining about valentino's actions during the race. he has since said that he talked to race direction about it and was incredibly disillusioned about their choice not to penalise valentino - but again, not a whisper of it to the media with valentino sitting next to him

the one thing he did say was that he hoped he'd be fit to race in estoril because of his shoulder. remember the whole clutching at his arm routine where valentino (and the commentators) were kinda taking the mickey out of sete's comically pained expressions? well, um, turns out he did have a lot of pre-existing shoulder problems, and indeed that was the bit of his body that caused him considerable problems for the rest of his motogp career:

Gibernau dislocated his collarbone when he crashed out of the lead of the 2002 Portuguese Grand Prix on a Suzuki GSV-R, suffered a left shoulder tendon injury during his last turn clash with Valentino Rossi at Jerez 2005, then damaged the same shoulder further when he fell in practice for the following Estoril round. At the 2006 Catalan Grand Prix, Gibernau broke his left collarbone after spectacularly tangling with Ducati team-mate Loris Capirossi at the start of the race. Gibernau required a further operation shortly after when the titanium plate inserted to help his collarbone heal was found to have weakened. The new plate was in turn damaged when Gibernau hit Casey Stoner's fallen Honda in the penultimate round of the season, again at Estoril, marking the end of Gibernau's factory Ducati - and, it seemed - MotoGP career. Before making his 2009 MotoGP comeback, Gibernau had the metal plate removed from his collarbone, only to suffer shoulder ligament damage during training - forcing him to miss the final pre-season test.

well, anyway, after the controversy has had two weeks to continue on full steam, valentino does strike a somewhat more contrite note in the estoril pre-event press conference. he says he hadn't been aware of the whole shoulder situation and that sete had been unlucky given it had been a light touch in a slow corner... but having rewatched the footage he can see how, yes, maybe the contact could have hurt sete. these things happen, right? and at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter for valentino, because the controversy blows over. what remains is the blow (psychological rather than physical) he dealt sete. what remains is that he won and sete lost, again, and sete has still failed to win since qatar

"And I really think that as long as he wins this race, even if he only takes five points back off Valentino Rossi, he will be happy with that, because it's all about getting back to winning ways. He hasn't won since Qatar last October. He's got to take a victory, just to get his season back on course. Valentino Rossi is going to take a lot of stopping, and really all he can do is try and win this race in front of his home crowd." [...] "That race in Qatar, and the problems they had in that race with Valentino Rossi crashing out after having to start from the back of the grid was really when all the problems started, didn't it, for Sete Gibernau. [...] But really that's where his problems started, both on and off the track for Sete Gibernau after that race victory in Qatar. I really can't believe he would've believed that was going to happen. He was so, so pleased to win that race." [...] "This is a big big thirteen laps for Sete Gibernau, isn't it. If he can hold off Valentino Rossi, psychologically, it would be a very very big victory for him."

^excerpts from the catalunya 2005 commentary, the sixth round of the season. valentino had said in the presser after the preceding race that he expected biaggi and melandri to be his main rivals that season. sete leads for almost the entire race before valentino makes his race-winning overtake with three laps to go and smashes the previous circuit record on that lap

what remains is one failure after another. an important thing to stress when we talk about a 'curse' is that sete gibernau did not suddenly stop being a frontrunner after qatar 2004. he qualified on pole five times in 2005 (same as valentino, funnily enough - his average grid position was actually better than vale's, 2.82 v 4.12). even so, things go from bad to worse for sete. often valentino does his own dirty work in stopping sete when he's getting a bit too close to that elusive victory, winning a close duel in catalunya, pressuring sete into a mistake at the sachsenring, that kind of thing. often, he does not even have to. sometimes he took himself out, like crashing out of the lead in the wet conditions he was once so very skilled at in estoril (not helping his injured shoulder) or in donington park, where valentino went on to deliver perhaps the finest wet weather performance of his career to take the win

"I don't think anyone can be to blame for crashing out in these conditions, can they. [...] It really is at that stage of the season for Sete Gibernau where it's all or nothing, really just got to try and win races. We're now twelve races since his last victory at Qatar. Valentino Rossi promised after that race that Gibernau would never win another race and well it seems to be coming true so far."

^excerpt from the donington park 2005 commentary, the ninth race of the season, where sete crashed out of the lead in horrendous wet conditions

valentino's favoured way of winning races played into his hands here. pressure, pressure, pressure - preferably exerted from right behind his victim, with the knowledge that valentino is waiting and studying and ready to pounce on any mistake. even if you don't make any, he'll probably get you anyway. the effect of these defeats becomes nicely cumulative, where even the knowledge that valentino will be coming (even if he isn't there yet), that eventually he will try and pass you (even if he hasn't done so yet), is enough to make his opponents self-destruct before he even has to lift a finger. what he does to sete is the most extreme version of how that tactic typically works, by slowly eating away at sete's confidence and composure and self-belief until the eventual error feels increasingly inevitable. valentino knows it is coming, sete knows it is coming, and they both play their parts accordingly

"But Rossi straight after Gibernau, now he'll start those pressure games. Pressure is on Sete Gibernau. He has not won a race for a year; the last race win was here. And the man he doesn't speak to, he doesn't speak back to him either, Valentino Rossi, behind him, and Rossi will start exerting the pressure Rossi-style as we know." [...] "A year ago, wasn't it, it doesn't seem that long ago, doesn't it, that Sete Gibernau was so delighted to win the race here. And Valentino Rossi really left in a strop, didn't he. But there we are, Sete Gibernau - but we've seen it before, and Rossi seems so have this ability to faze him, out at the front, put pressure on him." [...] "Well, Nick, you said at the start of this race that Valentino Rossi has plenty of motivation to win this race here. He wants to take ten wins for Yamaha, it would be the first Yamaha rider ever to do that in the premier class. He wants to end a drought almost in his terms, certainly since he became a Yamaha rider - he's never gone three races without winning a race before, but that could happen today if Gibernau holds this out. And of course the one thing he really wants to stop is Sete Gibernau from winning a race one year on from the day that Rossi said he would never win another one for the rest of his career." "How long does a g-'s curse take, I mean, is it just a year, the g-'s curse and then does it come off? Because if it is then he's just about right, isn't he? [...] Perhaps the curse is gone; perhaps this is just what Sete Gibernau needed."

^excerpts from the qatar 2005 commentary, the fourteenth round of the season. sete looked like he was making a break for it ahead of valentino and then melandri. six laps to go melandri almost causes valentino to crash and costs valentino over a second, but it doesn't matter. this time it's melandri who has the honours of coaxing a mistake out of sete, who goes off into the gravel as melandri passes him. valentino overtakes melandri for the victory

sometimes, he did just seem cursed in the truest sense of the word. his bike running out of fuel on the last lap while he's still fighting valentino for the victory. mechanical dnf's. other riders barging him out of the way before valentino even has the chance to. he switched manufacturers for 2006, getting a spot on the ducati factory team: his last race with honda was ended by an engine failure and his first race with ducati was ended by an electronics failure. a freak boot protector malfunction that left his foot bleeding halfway through the race. a nasty crash in catalunya, followed by his ambulance crashing into a bus fifty metres in front of the hospital entrance. in the end, it was probably the injury caused by casey stoner bringing him down in estoril that pushed him definitively into retiring - after he was dropped by ducati in favour of casey. so it goes

obviously, valentino cannot be held responsible for anything in that last paragraph. you can't mind game your opponent into having their engine blow up, at least I don't think you can. the stuff before that is fair game. what valentino did in jerez essentially stopped the title fight before it could even get started. it was ruthlessly effective in removing sete as a significant player at the top of the sport. sure, it's always hard to attribute a competitive decline such as this one to any single factor. but if ever there was a time to maybe just blame one person...

sete more often than not has kept his silence about the rivalry. in 2005, he generally did not go much further than saying that the whole thing was one-sided and started by valentino, see this (from one of oxley's books):

But don't ask me about him as a person, I'll only speak about him from a professional point of view, that's about it. I don't know why he's got a problem with me because I've never had a problem with him. I've always had a lot of respect for everyone on the grid, I just wish everyone shared that respect, because once you lose respect you lose everything.

on a similar topic, at some point he has also spoken about the qatar controversy again, saying the following:

He blamed me but it was nothing I did. Of course I didn't report him - I didn't even see what happened. I'd had a very good relationship with Valentino for many years but after that it just came around.

in 2009, at the time of sete's ultimately short-lived motogp comeback, he went along with the slight farce of a reconciliation, shaking valentino's hand and talking to him with cameras watching - the season after valentino had regained his crown in '08. but it is fair to say not all is forgotten. at times, he has done his best to draw a line under jerez and continues to refrain from criticising valentino publicly, like this from 2017:

The Catalan avoids criticizing the Italian for any controversial maneuver, such as that of Jerez 2005. "At the time I was living, based on my values, principles and education, I tried to do things as well as I knew how. And I am very proud of what I did ." Sete explains what it means to battle Vale. "We did very nice things fighting against a phenomenon, he may be the best in the history of motorcycling. I am proud to have fought face to face with a guy who is a phenomenon," he explains.

(obviously, you can read this as valentino not following whatever values, principles or education he might have possessed.) at other times, he's been a little more openly critical. in 2020, he still did not criticise valentino as much as he did the response to the overtake, which he felt set a bad precedent and has contributed to the normalisation of a more aggressive style of racing in the years since:

I don't know how many times we've talked about that corner, but the more time goes by the more I understand after that, things change. Many people were seeing that move, and from that moment on it opened the door for it to happen many more times. At the end of the race, both of us did what we thought was best for the championship, and my opinion can be whatever. But since then things have changed in MotoGP and racing is understood, which I don't agree [with].

he also adds this:

When asked if race direction would have looked into that incident had it happened today, Gibernau responded: "To tell you the truth, no. I don't think so. "I've got different thoughts on that side, which are mine, and like I said I don't need to be right or wrong. Everyone has his own thoughts, and if I put myself now in a situation where I was watching a race and I saw what happened there [at Jerez] where two guys risking their own lives touched each other in a difficult last corner, and I was looking at it with my son who would like to become a road racer, and everyone would give the victory to a guy that has touched another one, I wouldn't be wanting that to happen. "I don't want anyone to get hurt. It's one of my priorities and it's how I understand sport and racing. MotoGP is already so dangerous that in my opinion we should all put together our know how to avoid these type of situations. Is it difficult to do? Yes. Is it impossible to do? I don't think so. It's responsibility to whoever is in charge of the championship and to put the rules where we need to stay away from this type of situation because, like I say, we're risking more than just a crash."

and even more recently, in 2023, he's spoken about the jerez race being the source of his disillusionment:

If I'm telling the truth, Jerez 2005 made me lose my enthusiasm for being in the races. I tried to maintain it until the beginning of 2006, with Ducati, and when we could have won, a mechanic left a gear screw unadjusted and the gear lever fell off. That day, in Jerez 2005, I mentally retired. Valentino went inside and took me out. They didn't penalize him. It's my personal opinion, everyone will have their own opinion and it must be respected, but I think that this is not a contact sport.

also in 2023, in a separate interview, he said this:

But he didn't get a punishment or anything, and then I started to lose my faith in the sport. [...] I couldn't understand how, y'know this was not a contact sport, I couldn't understand... things happen in the championship and things had been going on inside and everything and I just lost my - started to lose my illusion in the racing.

which is later in the same interview followed by this (which is partly about his woes in 2006 - he also talked about the moment with the gear screw, but I think pinpoints that rather than jerez as the day he mentally retired):

I had done such a big effort to put myself to a position to where, I was fighting against my own demons, I was fighting against the championship, I thought no one's helping here. I was fighting against one of the top guys in the history of racing, which was Valentino, and I just thought, but, Valentino doesn't even need to do what he's doing to win, and no one is saying nothing. There was many things there and I just couldn't understand... I'm fighting against everything, you know, and I was expecting the championship to just be a little more neutral on that side, just to say, if someone does something wrong you've got to say, in my opinion, it's not a contact sport; it's already dangerous enough to being able to say you can hit someone and say, wow, that was a great move. [...] Everyone is brave on a MotoGP bike. Moto3, Moto2, MotoGP, from the first guy to the last guy, you cannot pinpoint on TV and say how brave this guy was by hitting another guy. Because if I'm a dad watching that I would not want my son to be in a championship like this. Because it's not bravery, it's not about hitting another guy - if you want to do that, go boxing. [...] And from a guy like Valentino, which is, a superstar, why accept that? I think it was wrong, in my opinion, he didn't need to do that. Since then, many things have been happening because of that movement. Because kids saw that and said that's the way to do it. And then Marquez is doing it to this guy, and the other guy is doing it to the other guy, and you get killed in racing. It's already dangerous. We should stay away from that. That's why I never understood - it got to a point where I just - oh man. It's nothing to do with me here any more, you know, and I just left racing and I retired.

for the most part, then, sete is still quite contained in his criticisms of valentino, focusing on the jerez incident and not really delving into what happened the year prior to that. he mainly questions why valentino even felt the need to do what he did to sete, and suggests valentino set a bad example to others - especially kids watching, especially future riders. his criticisms also concern motogp as a sport, those who set the rules and those who regulate them, in not doing anything to stamp down on this kind of racing. he says he felt like he lacked support from the entirety of the sport and eventually decided that he'd had enough

I haven't added this block of text just because I enjoy transcribing large portions of three hour long podcast interviews that didn't really need to be three hours long (apparently the most tried and tested method of getting riders to share their more candid thoughts about anything) - but because this, uh, average-length tumblr post wouldn't really feel complete without it. it's all very well and good to talk about how sete was mentally 'broken' by what valentino did to him. you can have whatever opinion you want about the thoughts sete expresses here on riding standards and acceptable levels of aggression. you can also maybe doubt whether it really was just 'disillusionment' with race direction's approach to valentino's jerez pass that caused his competitive decline - obviously, three hour confessional podcast interview or not, this is a narrative he's still chosen for a reason and it sells himself and his career in a certain way. but - but - especially given the exact circumstances in which his rise to title challenger status occurred and how heavily he involved himself in the safety commission... well, at the very least I'm not going to leave it out. should he have made his complaints publicly known at the time, if this is something he felt so strongly about? is this level of criticism warranted by that specific jerez move? it's tough, because from the modern perspective of course I too have gotten used to a kind of racing where that level of contact is fairly normalised - which two riders this century have played a disproportionate role in bringing about. on the one hand, valentino is right in his defence that relatively speaking, this is far from the fastest or hardest contact out there. on the other hand, it's a move that was made with the knowledge it would result in contact. and in doing so, he injured sete, because that's what can happen even as a result of relatively 'light' touches. make up your own mind! it's not an easy topic to address, and I most certainly wouldn't be able to do it justice here. let's wrap this up

of delusion and despair

valentino has always been intensely aware of the power of narratives and takes care in how he tells his own story. the most literal version in which anyone can tell their own story is, obviously, by publishing an autobiography - which he did in 2005, covering everything up until his first title with yamaha at the end of 2004. it is not presented in chronological order and is instead organised in a far more loose thematic manner, with valentino not feeling any compulsion to give all parts of his life anywhere close to equal attention. still, when you read it, certain omissions do jump out at you - and the exclusion of gibernau is perhaps the most remarkable. you could say it's because he doesn't want to speak ill of his rivals, but he has no problem going into a fair bit of detail about his feud with biaggi. you could say it's because the gibernau rivalry was still going on at time of writing, but the same is more or less true about biaggi who placed third in the 2004 championship. there is not a single paragraph in his autobiography devoted to the relationship with gibernau. every mention of him is just that: a mention. a name thrown in without care when discussing something else entirely. you are told vale passed gibernau to win the 2004 championship - but if you read the autobiography without any other knowledge of valentino, you'd be forgiven for not realising gibernau had been his title rival at all

yes, within the grand context of his career, biaggi does have to be seen as a more significant rival... but this narrative was still being written in late 2004, at a time in which valentino had committed himself to destroying sete. maybe valentino doesn't want to comment on controversies that are still bubbling along, but the sheer extent of the erasure feels far more deliberate than that. this is somebody who had been valentino's friend for years, enough so that they spent time with each other outside of work, went on holidays together, blokes who for all intents and purposes truly liked each other's company. somebody who had been his closest rival for two years, who had pushed him closer than anyone else had in his title runs, who he had experienced some of his greatest career defeats and victories against. according to the narrative presented by the autobiography, he might as well be just any other rider. it's worse than fury, worse than loathing: it's disinterest

(it has to be said, quite possibly the funniest omission is when he's talking about how "angry and disappointed" he was after qatar because of, and I quote, "honda having lodged an appeal". ... anyone else you thought was involved, valentino? .....?)

which is quite the punishment to enact. one reason why this rivalry is so tricky to analyse is, yes, it's one that's quite old by now, but also because we are drawing from a far smaller sample size of valentino comments - almost all of which were provided at the time - when you compare it to any of his other major rivalries. sure, he still talks about jerez 2005, when he's asked about it - though it might as well just have been another fun race, another dramatic victory, another controversial overtake, rather than anything that had any greater significance. (of course, there is also a clip of him forgetting about the race entirely when thinking about last corner overtakes in the premier class with sete in the room - which you can read into if you so choose.) he's talked plenty over the years about his first yamaha title in 2004, but not about the man he beat to secure it. this was his closest title battle of the ones he won (just pipping 2009), but he might as well have won it against a faceless amalgamation of the honda corporation rather than an actual living breathing rival. it's as if that title battle started and ended in welkom, where it was biaggi not gibernau who valentino had to best. even though publicly the two of them set aside their feud in 2009 and valentino even said then that they could be friends again, this feels like lip service more than anything else. in 2015 at jerez, valentino was questioned about the parallels to his relationship with a certain other rival, who was friendly with valentino at the time but had crashed out while battling vale in the previous race. valentino in response acknowledged his past good friendship with sete, but said it was different: after qatar his relationship with sete had gotten worse as a result of how sete had "played a dirty game". if he had not changed his mind about sete's character eleven years after the fact, why would he have reevaluated in the years since?

it is fair to say that gibernau was the least talented of valentino's major rivals, the least substantial figure in terms of his accomplishments in grand prix racing. biaggi is a four time 250cc champion; nobody needs to be reminded of the achievements of stoner, lorenzo or marquez. sete is the rival who wasn't even supposed to exist; he was catapulted into the position essentially overnight by tragedy. and yet, even acknowledging that, it feels like he is under-discussed in the canon of valentino feuds given the sheer quality of their on-track output (let's face it, there are more great vale/sete battles than there are for say vale/casey) and the high drama of their closest title fight. yes, you can say that's because it is one of the older and less well-remembered rivalries, because it is not quite as dramatic and significant as the biaggi feud... but still, it's quite the disparity. given the power valentino holds in writing the stories within the sport, how can you not conclude that he has played a helping hand in this erasure? being ignored is a far greater indignity than being despised - and after 2004 valentino has barely even offered sete the honour of his hatred

^sete tried to breathe new life into his motogp career by switching to ducati, but his campaign was derailed by injuries. it was probably scant consolation in his miserable 2006 season, but valentino himself was pretty cursed that year. their last on-track battle came at phillip island, in the series' first bike swap race while valentino was fighting tooth and nail to save his doomed title defence. it's admittedly one of like twenty things that happen in that race, but it is quite funny how sete really came back to life just in time to make valentino's life harder when he really didn't need him to. valentino overtook sete on the final corner of the race for the final podium spot

of course, it is a hell of a lot easier to erase a rivalry when you win it so conclusively. in truth, as an opponent, valentino got the measure of sete fairly quickly. he never lost another direct duel against sete after sachsenring 2003, having essentially vowed as much to himself even when they were nominally still on good terms. the 2004 championship was as close as it was because of valentino's unequivocally inferior machinery and the somewhat less consistent results he achieved as a consequence - but even there, when they fought directly for the win in mugello, catalunya, assen and phillip island, each time valentino came out on top. (you can argue about brno '04 - I'd say it doesn't really count since sete ended up running away with the race with a massive tyre advantage.) still, you don't have to be winning all your direct duels with your opponents to be winning the championship - and at the end of the day, sete did come tantalisingly close to a title, or at the very least forcing a title decider. whatever it is that differentiates 'very good riders' from 'champions' is what sete is lacking. he has something in him... a self consciousness, a self awareness even, that is lethal to professional athletes. he was stuck trying to manage the image of his rivalry with valentino, when valentino was moving in for the kill. valentino too is heavily aware of image, is heavily invested in how he tells his own story - but more often than not, he manages to use it as a weapon to spur himself onwards to further success. when valentino did so once again in late 2004, sete stumbled

it is not novel to suggest that valentino needs enemies to motivate himself. plenty of people within the sport have said it, including his fellow riders. that's what's always worth remembering about the 'mind games' - sure, it's great if he unnerves his opponents, but often it is about providing himself with someone to hate though there are exceptions to this, which I have a lot of thoughts about relating to one casey stoner. valentino needs to have a reason to do what he does; it's not enough to win for the sake of winning if there's no story. in 2003, he had more or less won motogp and was finding it harder and harder to motivate himself, admitting repeatedly that he was losing his joy and passion for racing. yes, this was one of the main factors that led to the move to yamaha: to give himself a reason to keep going. but it was also just the right moment for another rival to emerge from nowhere and give valentino somebody new to focus his attentions on. when you read the limited autobiography mentions of sete and his interactions with valentino in 2003, it seems hard not to conclude valentino was already feeling a little less kindly towards sete by the end of that year. the relationship did not survive contact with a true title fight, where valentino found himself pushed closer to the limit than he ever had before. the moment he was in real danger, he blew up the relationship and walked away with literal full points for the remainder of the season. at the very next race to start off the new season, he made sure sete would never be a threat to him again

it's natural to conclude from all of this that the feud was built entirely on the back of valentino's delusions, of valentino inventing a concrete reason to despise sete that was based on his mental list of sete's past transgressions, imagined or otherwise. and maybe it was. did sete really snitch? did valentino really think he did? what was it that convinced valentino of sete's guilt? and even if sete was involved, was this really a proportionate response? this is where a lack of evidence and both parties' reticence to discuss the incident in the years since works against us. but - looking beyond the specifics of what happened in qatar, it does feel likely that the relationship would have deteriorated beyond what we saw in assen anyway. that's what a close title fight tends to do to the people involved. isn't it?

sete makes for a suitable foil to valentino because he too intensely concerns himself with how he is perceived. when vale takes on sete, one pretty boy to another, they are both a little too aware of the artifice of what they are doing, a little too concerned with the optics, the image, the spectacle. rivals, friends, enemies - how far apart are any of those things, really? can we be friends if you desperately covet what I have? if you take pleasure at the thought of my downfall? is this oft-touted ideal of a 'respectful' rivalry inevitably nothing but a facade for the ugly reality that lies beneath? 2004 is what happens when their relationship is actually tested - because now they are finally fighting for something real and they both know it. this is what happens in assen, when valentino decides he needs to win at any cost, when sete realises they are not playing the game by the same rules. sete had been performing graciousness and valentino calls him on his bluff

the best rivalries transform both parties; neither side should be allowed to emerge unchanged from the battle they share. sete entered valentino's life as a competitor at a time when everything was a little too easy and as a result a little too hard for valentino. at a time when valentino felt dissatisfied, underappreciated, judged harshly from all sides and pinned down by the weight of the world's glares. the blows sete inflicted on valentino were primarily symbolic, hurting valentino's pride and reputation rather than his title bid in 2003, which was never under any realistic threat. when valentino was at his lowest that season, he responded by bringing the joy back, reverting to type, with a new haircut and an ironic gag of a celebration and a daring victory to boot. in 2004, however, valentino changed. he had to - he was on a worse bike than his opponents that he was wrestling towards a title it had no right to be winning that year. he didn't have the kind of margin for error any more that he could afford in his honda years, no more foolishness like at the sachsenring. so he became a little tougher and a little meaner and a lot more aggressive in his racing. he shed some of the insouciance that both him and sete have at times been accused of and got down to the serious business of winning. not joylessly - after all there are few things more enjoyable than crushing the enemy. still, it's fine to be a clown prince in your downtime, not when you're barging title rivals aside in assen

it is here, then, at assen, that sete makes a critical, fatal mistake. because sete is torn in two: he wants to be the gracious rival, but he also thinks what valentino did is wrong and wants to communicate as much to the world. maybe it's because it clashes with sete's understanding of racing, maybe it's simply because sete is bitter that he lost - who's to say. except sete can't bring himself to actually say any of this. he chooses the worst possible strategy against valentino: silent disapproval and annoyance and frustration, played up for the television cameras, but without offering a single word of actual complaint until later, when valentino had already offered his explanations and half-apologies. so what valentino takes away from this is twofold. for one, he comes to believe that sete has a problem with his racing and cannot graciously accept his defeat, entirely failing to match valentino's magnanimity on the (rare) occasions when he loses. but unfortunately for sete, what valentino also learns is that - when it comes down to it - sete will not stand up for himself. valentino knows he can do this again

in sepang sete attempts to take the high ground once more, to allow valentino his transgressions and foibles and temper, to be calm in the face of vale's fury, to be the better man. in australia sete pulls himself together to shake hands with valentino, to be respectful of his rival's accomplishments and graceful in defeat, to be the better man. in jerez sete is beyond angry, furious enough to actually approach valentino in parc fermé and say a few words to him, but he still shakes valentino's hand on the podium and refuses to complain directly about him in the press conference - because he is determined to be the better man. does he think he can shame valentino into being different from what he is? if so, it is an unfortunate miscalculation. you cannot claim a moral victory against somebody who does not give a shit

for valentino, at least half the joy of racing has always been about beating the opposition. a new rival is presented to him out of nowhere - and out of him valentino fashions himself an enemy. sete was one of the first people to offer valentino advice when vale entered the premier class, but this was not the last thing valentino learned from him. because what valentino did to gibernau was different than what he did to biaggi. this was not just trying to get a rise out of a bloke he disliked every time he got half a chance. this was not valentino slowly chipping away at his victim's patience and self-control and sanity. what valentino does to gibernau is far more sudden and far more targeted and gets a far more immediate effect. he emerges from qatar weakened and on the back foot and within eight days flips the situation so that he is once again the one in command. sete, who had very much exerted himself in presenting the relationship in a certain way to the world, who wanted so badly for this to be a certain kind of rivalry, ever so respectful - well, valentino found out just where to hurt him. he did it with his sudden public coldness towards sete, with carefully chosen remarks to the press to make clear that nothing had been forgiven, with the jibes and the taunts at each and every stage of his victory. he married the off-track theatre with on-track strategy as well as pure performance, directly disrupting and disturbing sete whenever necessary - the kind of combination he would later find so useful in fending off first casey then lorenzo. it's no coincidence that his three most famous career overtakes are ones that are also so significant in how they affected valentino's fortunes in the aftermath of his victory. laguna 2008 and catalunya 2009 represent complete shifts in momentum within their respective seasons that his rivals never quite recovered from. jerez 2005 ends the title battle at the very first race. and it's not just sete's season that didn't recover - it's his career

of course, it's easier to mess with someone when you have the measure of them in performance. that's always something to keep in mind when talking about mental resilience: it's easier to bounce back from your rival being an asshole to you if you're just really, really good at what you do. valentino always understood himself that any 'mind games' had to be backed up by on-track performance; he's openly stated that all of his off-track "work" on his opponents only gets results if it's paired with being strong on the bike. and he himself lost his cool in qatar - but it helped that he knew he had what it took to bounce back. this was never a rivalry of equals; there was never any question between the two of them who the better rider was. all that being said: it's a really good rivalry! guys, there's some really great races. sete was a serious challenger and he did pose a serious threat to valentino, which you can tell because otherwise valentino never would have needed to do any of this. he made valentino grow as a rider and... do you make someone 'grow as a person' if you make them better at psychological warfare? yes, I think so. actually

valentino became a more accomplished rider for having experienced the sachsenring debacle, and he became a more accomplished rider as a result of the qatar fiasco. he motivated himself to become better because he wanted to defeat sete so badly, and isn't there something compelling about that? valentino was willing to take risks at phillip island that could have resulted in a title decider, was willing to make himself extremely unpopular with the spanish crowd at jerez (not something he has typically had much experience with) - all because he needed to crush sete, to destroy him so completely he could erase him entirely. at the end of the day, there's a bunch of reasons why this rivalry doesn't get the attention it deserve. one of them, however, is that valentino seems to be pretty happy with this state of affairs, and has spent the better part of two decades deeply disinterested in paying sete his dues. don't let him have his way

#sete gibernau #valentino rossi #//#sg15 #vr46 #sete ask yay #right I'm aware this is a topic nobody else actually cares about That Much but I had fun and that's what matters #you'd never believe this but there's quite a lot of this I ended up cutting. like I do have More Thoughts I fear #I don't love this as a piece of writing and it runs into some major tonal issues at some stages but well! post like nobody's reading etc #I feel like every time I try and add a read more it fucks the formatting of the pictures but I'm gonna trust it's. Fine

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aleksanderscult · 5 months

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I loved your analysis! Can you analyse the (barely there, not enough) Darklina scenes from the KOS duology? I could not rationalize some of what was going on there.

First of all, I'm so sorry for taking that long to reply, anon! (Hasn't it been over two weeks since you send this or what??😭😭)

Second, thank you so much for your kind words! 💗💗

Third, you and I both friend 🤝🤝

'Cause honestly I didn't know what the fuck was happening in that interaction too 😭

I'll actually analyze the only Darklina scene we got in RoW. But if you want another one too, just send me an ask!

So! Let's dive in and analyze that hot mess, shall we?

(note: I had to go back and read this scene very carefully in order to understand what the actual fuck they were saying💀)

⚠️TW!: PTSD, trauma⚠️

The way he's so obedient with her even in this life 😭

If somebody else had ordered him to do that, he wouldn't obey. But Alina? Alina is a different story and this is the first time he hears her voice since his death in R&R.

'Any little victory'

Uhh....okay...??

You made him wipe his feet. I'm.... impressed??

(confusion levels 📉)

LMAO MY BOY WOKE UP AND CHOSE VIOLENCE

I always believed that the dynamic between Aleksander and Alina involves lots of teasing. But not in the fun sense. But in the sense of "I'm getting under your skin. My words to you sting".

And that's what the Darkling does here too. He's a prisoner. Their prisoner. So he tries to gain the upper hand by using his wits, his past with Alina and the latter's trauma against her to get even.

Pretty clever, huh?

See what I mean?

He tries to weaken her confidence and it's interesting that back in Keramzin he also tried to get even (and he did) by killing her mother figure.

Aleksander: "Wanna fuck with me? Wanna mess with me? How about that time when I burnt that orphanage and killed your "mother"?"

*Alina's sure confidence is gone and now the Darkling has the upper hand in her feelings*

OUTSTANDING MOVE 👌

Excuse me, Misha? Who the Hell gave you the permission to interrupt or talk at all??

Also, do you really expect from the Darkling to remember a little boy while he was too busy trying to rule a nation, win a war and persuade Alina to join him?

And if you also expect him to remember you from that time when Baghra went out to confront her son while you escorted her, then you're also wrong. 'Cause he was too busy being furious that his mother sided and helped the opposite side and too busy being distraught because he was watching her fall to her death.

You're not important, son.

Sit down.

LMAO THIS IS SO HILARIOUS

Misha you're still an infant. Please shut up.

I honestly liked him in the Grisha Trilogy (I found him a cutie) but now I want to slap him and everyone else in this duology except Aleksander

The Darkling has survived numerous murdering attempts against him. He was finally killed by Alina not because of some grand display of her powers but because the former was so heartbroken by Alina's fate (and his own because he would be alone) that he just gave up on his life. Basically he committed suicide.

Misha, you wouldn't be able to kill him even now that he's powerless and in chains. Probably you would stumble and fall in the effort or smth.

Uhh actually no, Mal.

Threating him only makes you sound like idiots, honestly.

Also, since when did Mal gained ✨wisdom✨?

Wasn't he the hot-tempered one in the trilogy who always got angry with the mere mention of the Darkling? And the one who wanted to kill him as well?

Alina, you know damn well what his name is.

Honestly, I think she didn't say it because she wanted to respect the fact that he trusted her to keep it.

And I agree that Yuri is a horrible name for him. Makes him seem like a fisherman 😭

Meanwhile Alina in S&B:

So either Bardugo kinda forgot these scenes or we're led to believe that these scenes weren't her being happy, but we thought she was happy.

(me casually ignoring that theory because I choose to believe only the things that MAKE SENSE)

The fact that Bardugo made Alina believe that she was unhappy when she was whole with her powers and surrounded by people like her but totally happy now that she has no powers (a part of her soul actually) and living with a man that slut-shamed her in a toxic, childhood place is umm... yeah. Not good.

So basically:

Aleksander: "You look different. You look like shit. What the fuck did they do to you? This is not you"

Alina: "No bro I'm happy now that I live in toxic conditions where the teachers mock me, Mal takes me out for a walk to forget my psychological traumas and I raise some Grisha children that will fade because they don't use their powers and some others that I probably am in no condition to raise. At least that's what the author said is happiness, bro."

Aleksander: "......."

Alina: "......"

The readers: "........."

ALEKSANDER IS HONESTLY ALL OF US FRR WITH HIS LINES

"In peace"

Yeah, having PTSD certainly is peaceful. And knowing that you abandoned your country and left its fate to chance certainly makes you sleep like a baby at night.

"We chose the life we wanted"

Alina, you didn't CHOOSE to lose your powers. And before that you didn't even know what you wanted to do with your life. It was a last minute decision for you.

"I fell pray to the same greed that drove you"

Girl, are we the only ones who did our homework??

In his POV in RoW he confirmed that he tampered with merzost in the past because he wanted to stop Ravka's wars. So as far as we know he never used power exclusively for himself.

"I paid the price for tampering with merzost"

Now hold a second. I thought that the reason Alina lost her powers is because Morozova wanted that said power to be shared by any otkazat'sya around. It wasn't that much of a punishment as much as a need for Morozova to share that power.

Unless it was..... both?

I just want a guy that will believe in me and my abilities the way Aleksander does with Alina, man 😭

He strongly believes that she could become a Queen even without her powers. And he's actually so right when he says to her that her wounds won't heal. Because no matter how much you try to convince yourself that you are alright. No matter how hard you try to persuade your mind that you're not broken, reality will always hit you. Some wounds never heal and Alina's certainly will not. She didn't lose a toy, she lost a part of her soul and witnessed many die. How the hell does she think she's suitable to raise children, when she herself is NOT okay psychologically?

"In the wake of your wars"

Excuse me. Why is the Fjerdan and Shu wars always the Darkling's fault??

"And maybe when our country is free, then that wound will close"

She sounds so brainwashed bye--

And just like I said, wounds like that never close unfortunately. It can only become more bearable with time. But not forgetable.

Ah yes. Bardugo makes us watch how cute their relationship is.

Am I supposed to take off my camera and snap pictures of them whispering with tears in my eyes: "They look so adorable"?

'Cause I won't.

The way Bardugo has made Mal unfazed by the Darkling's comments. A thing that completely contrasts his nature in the Grisha trilogy.

He also made him have "sassy" lines because we've got to like him somehow, right? 🤗

Still hate him

Basically, dear anon, the author has made Mal more "likeable", immune to the Darkling's insults, patient and witty in order for us to change our mind about him and finally like him.

(mission failed btw)

He is literally nothing like his trilogy counterpart and, if possible, she made him more annoying.

(how the hell she managed to do that, I don't know)

I just feel sorry for Aleksander who has to deal with all these jerks. If I were there, I would have helped him kill them and bury their bodies.

Because you let your heart and feelings get the better of you, Aleksander. Because you proved to be the most human of all these characters here. You let her come close. And that's what killed you.

(also, shut up Misha)

Alina, you could have said "no" to that invitation. So stop acting like they dragged you from the hair here.

"Do you think you could manage it?"

Do you, Alina? 'Cause really, what did YOU do to make the lives of Grisha better? At least he built a palace for them.

"It's not like you didn't get a fair try before. Hundreds of tries"

Yeah, and half of them failed because you got in the way. You refused to listen to him and, even if you didn't like the way he dealt with the persecution, you chose to run away (again) instead of deciding to stay and do better.

SHE DID NOT JUST SAY THAT ZOYA AND NIKOLAI COULD DO BETTER LMAO 😭😭

Zoya, the very fact that he mentioned you should feel like a badge of honor.

And yet Ravka is in its worst condition ever.

Sorry Alina but I don't see shit from them.

The fact that the Darkling keeps mentioning that he's eternal is to remind them that he has seen everything and done everything. He has more experience than they will ever have. Not to gloat about it. And yet Alina takes it as the latter.

And it's funny that Alina turns him down for the job saying he has no powers when Alina herself suffers from the same condition 😀

Finally someone with self-reflection.

THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING!!

PREACH!! PREACH!! 👏👏

When you have the "villain" exposing the true problem in the story, the flaws and failures while having the heroes screaming "EVERYTHING IS FINE. YOU'RE WRONG!" then you know that something is wrong.

How the Hell are they gonna provide eternal peace in Ravka and to the Grisha when:

They have no experience

They are too busy criticizing the villain instead of looking at their own flaws

They doubt themselves

(you can add to the list, guys)

And he's not shaken because he's talking with a Saint, Zoya. He's shaken because he's talking to Alina. She always had a way in getting under his skin. He said it.

"Fine. Make me your villain" fits here 'cause he never perceived himself as the bad guy but he knew that this is what others thought of him.

I think it still stung to him to know that others saw his every action in a negative light but he still kept going. And sometimes he even used it (at the end of R&R).

Alina still wants to believe that there's something redeemable inside him. Her POVs were always the "kindest" in the way they painted the Darkling.

MISHA COULD YOU PLEASE SHUT IT

What about his mother, huh??

Who, despite the abuse he suffered from her, he still cared about??

Alina?? Oh boy, he was in love with her, obsessed and gave her so many chances. Something that he almost never does unless he's desperate.

So PRETTY PLEASE STOP TALKING

Meanwhile the Darkling in R&R, chapter 11:

"I have regretted many of the things I’ve had to do in this war."

So either Bardugo forgot that or Alina did or Aleksander changed his mind.

Or (my theory) Bardugo changed his perception in order for us to feel less sympathetic towards him.

Nevertheless, at least he has a spine and knows where he stands.

And Alina wanted the Darkling to say it not for him but for her. So she can feel okay. Unless Zoya is talking bullshit.

YES ALEKSANDER WHY DIDN'T YOU LIE SO OUR HEROINES COULD FEEL BETTER ABOUT THEMSELVES???!!

HOW DARE YOU?? 😠😠

He tries so hard to persuade her that the reality she lives in will not pay off anything. First off, this is not who she is or what she was meant to become and second, why does she teaches children stories that are lies? Feeding them false hope, repeating a circle that others had also been doing.

"Do you *really* believe..."

He wants to make sure that she stands by that. He just can't believe that this is her opinion. Her choice.

He just wants her to shine people!! 😭😍

"Those stories tell us the only people who matter are Kings and Queens. They're wrong"

Now tell me, Alina, which stories do YOU tell them? What do you teach them? That the world is as rosy as the orphanage they live in, where they only eat sugar and play the piano? Do you imagine what kind of reality check will those children get once they live in the real world?

And here, ladies and gentlemen, we see the Darkling having reached his limits and saying "Fuck this shit I'm out"

Congratulations, Aleksander! You survived that meeting with these buffoons and their groundless arguments!! 👏👏

Here, have this! 🏅

He saw his chance (Alina holding Mal's hand) and seized it. But I think he really meant all those questions he asked to Alina.

So, dear anon, what we have here is the villain making his effort (again) to be heard and understood. He tries to make them see his own point of view: Ravka is in serious danger and Zoya and Nikolai are in no position to protect it. He, on the other hand, can since he has more experience and balls to deal with these issues. The Darkling is no pussy. He truly makes hard decisions when he must, something that essentially all rulers must do when the situation calls for it.

But! We have the good guys silencing him and threating him (even having a little child to do the last one) in order for the reader to understand what he has left in his wake. How much pain he has caused.

Mal has gotten ✨magically✨ wiser and calmer and has actual wits to repel the Darkling's insults in order for us to get to like Mal and see how much he has changed.

Alina sounds like a brainwashed woman who is convinced that her lifestyle is great! That wanting something more (idk. a throne and changing the world maybe) is sinful and unfitting of her.

Aleksander is the only one who thinks otherwise for her, though. Thank God, I mean!

He sought Alina out both to reclaim his powers and because he just wanted to see her.

Personally, in this scene only the Darkling makes sense. The others either want to feel good about themselves by threating him or want to convince him that "Hey, we're the good ones here. We know what we're doing, okay?" and his own ways are shit.

Dear anon, if you have any other questions or want me to analyze any other Darklina scene from this book or duology that I didn't include, then just say so!

And please any others who want to add something about this scene, feel free to criticise in the comments! 💛💛

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parentsday · 2 months

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Hiii! Since you asked about headcanons/analysis stuff:

There's a common interpretation on the fandom about Max's treatment of David in the early episodes coming, at least partially, from trust issues regarding adults/authority figures. And I've seen push back against it, too. People who say it's just because David is annoyingly positive. Nothing else.

And sure, I can see that. But Nikki also acts in a cheerful manner and mostly enjoys camp, and Max doesn't treat her with the level of rudeness he treated David in season one. This could be due to her being his little partner in crime, but idk. I always interpreted it as him thinking that David is some fake nice adult who will just let him down if he allows it.

And, while I was thinking about this, I realized how this interpretation of Max's behaviour towards David adds another heartbreaking layer to Parents day.

Max's perception of David started changing after Order of the sparrow, specifically after the "Somebody fucking has to" moment. For just a moment, the annoying, overly positive persona drops, and Max is able to see a nuanced human being. And it's clear that he starts understanding David a little more, because in Cult camp (literally the next episode), he allows himself to be brainwashed and trusts that David will save the camp (btw, we as a fandom don’t talk about this aspect of this episode enough).

So yeah, his perception of David changes for the better.

But then, parents day happens.

And David spends most of the episode being an absolute jerk, even if he doesn't realize it.

He pushes SO HARD to try and make the day perfect, basically ignores Max when he states that his parents aren't coming, gets way too serious about playing the role of Max's dad for the day, forces Max into the activities and then, at the end of a day that was already shitty for Max, he yells at him.

I think the context of Max's opinion on David finnaly becoming more positive makes this episode so much sadder.

Because it ceases to be just about Max's neglectful parents.

Now it's also about the closest thing he has to a trustworthy adult making him uncomfortable, ignoring his feelings and then yelling at him and telling him that he "has a bad attitude" and "brings everyone else down instead of trying just a little bit to have fun".

(Which are things he must have heard from adults before, if he behaves the way he does at camp in school and other places)

Remember in Friends like these when he said "Life's just one dissapointment after another. I can't belive I let myself forget it"? I think he might have had the same train of thought here: "I can't believe I let myself forget David is an asshole that only cares about impressing Campbell and making this stupid camp look good". Or: "I can't believe I let myself forget that every single adult thinks I'm a bad kid and a lost cause."

And I know it gets fixed quickly, with David apologizing shortly after, but still. I think the idea of Max being dissapointed at David in Parents day, even if it was just for some moments, is so good.

I also think this is the episode that comfirms to Max that David is genuinely a good person trying his best. He spent the entire day having to think about the fact that his parents suck, and then there's David, who is kind, apologizes for upsetting him and takes him to eat pizza and have a little heartfelt talk.

When was the last time his parents apologized to him, or cared about what he wanted/needed, or talked to him so gently?

The contrast between his parents and David is so big, and I think that's what makes Max finnaly go "Yeah, this guy isn't actually that bad."

(Sorry for rambling, omg.)

hi first of all thank u for an ask and such insightful one at it too !! this was an incredibly pleasant read and a lot of the stuff you say i personally find very good analysis of the show and agree with, however i do have some stuff to say abt it soo here we go ^-^ (this will be a long one so sorry about this in advance)

as i said in some previous reply, max is an incredibly peculiar guy when it comes to the way this show treats his trauma and the way he himself behaves as a result of it, and that’s by design! a lot of the thing he says and does in the first two seasons when it comes to david are there for reasons of narrative set up, and are later masterfully recontextualized by parents day later, leaving very little room for interpretation when it comes to how and why he operates. im gonna go out on a limb and say that i don’t think it’s a stretch to assume that most of his actions towards david in the early show stem from the childish born-from-trauma need for attention and also from his need for societal reinforcement of his own ego’s right to exist. when it comes to the first one i see most people agree (bc it’s a basic child psychology fact), but turn their noses in reference to the second one.

contrary to popular belief, max being in need of constant affirmation that he, as a person with little self value, deserves to exist next to other people is something that we see examples of constantly and is not a terrible part of his character that needs to be ignored. max is a neglect victim who from our knowledge is given very little attention by his parents, as a result of it he is a pessimistic asshole kid whose ego suffers from the very thing that made it this way. its in his strained relationship with nikki and neil, its in him arguing with david to put himself in the position of an adult, its him putting himself above others when it’s not needed and its in him putting his own egos safety first when time comes to accept that things are moving forward (two final episodes from both s3 and s4 are good examples of this). its not an inherently positive trait, but it is one okay for him to have by the virtue of being a young abused child with no support system, and denying it will leave him devoid of this characterization. in freudian (ugh) terms, we cannot separate his character’s superego from his id in a way that won’t harm the way he was intentionally written. Id, ego and superego are all influenced by our relationship with our parents, the amount of nurturing of a child's emotional and psychological needs parents does will result in the child’s psychological state forming a certain way, max as a character who is heavily reliant of his lackluster relationship with his parents is not devoid of this and it affects his relationship with david too. and the reason i’m saying all of this is exactly due to this.

david, when put in most simple terms, is a character who’s an adult figure present and mature enough in max’s current social position that it allows him to treat max as a child, something max is not used to. not used to to such an extent that it puts a strain on his ego in the process. david feeds his need for any form of attention, positive or not, just as much as he clips away at max’s need to be seen as socially important and in a position of an adult. it’s arguable if both of these are good or not but the main thing they are in relation to is obvious: max feels that being an adult who meets both of his psychological needs in ways that are unfamiliar to him makes david an untrustworthy person, thats exactly where you interpretation comes in clutch.

max and his behavior towards david cannot be separated from david being an adult, that is made clear with the way he treats nikki as an equal just because she is a person his age, despite her sharing a lot of david’s traits. going through the episodes you mentioned, order of the sparrow episode lets max see david perspective for the very first time. max is allowed to peek into the reason why david acts the way he does, however it alone doesn’t make him see david in a good light, if anything it makes him appear genuine in his actions. it also lets max have something for david that he didn’t have before: trust. it ends up being used in cult camp as a confirmation of it being something david can live up to (you are absolutely right, we really don’t talk abt this episode and it’s narrative weight enough). all of this has been adding onto the way max himself perceives david, parents day, however, lets both of them internalize the sentiment of mutual understanding towards each other together. parents day does this by lampshading max and david parallelism, making this whole episode consist of max seeing his parents in david just as much as david sees himself in max through the whole show and putting them in each others shoes by the end of it. the episode ends with david choosing max as a priority, he is still acting selfishly (once again david is an asshole) but choosing to do so towards max because the situation allows him to understand max the way s1 finale let max understand him. and with the final turning point in their dynamic, max understands that both his ego and need for attention can exist without them being reinforced by an adult treating him like he is an adult too. max was chosen as a priority for the very first time and that alone made him feel of more value than the treatment he initially yearned for would have. above all else parents day makes max see david as someone he can look up to as a person in emotional way, not only in a life or death situations, the shot of david from his perspective in the end making sure that we don’t miss it.

most of this is not me disagreeing with you, on the opposite i think a lot of the arguments you make are nice and are mindful interaction with the media. gold star for enjoying meta analysis to both of us i guess ⭐️. my main problem is, however, the fact that using all of this to basically say ‘maxs parents suck so he has a distain for david because of it’ is a heavy oversimplification that you somehow go against in your initial statement too and that i, personally, just don’t enjoy. this alone does not make your interpretation wrong though, if anything just reinforces your general idea into a more concrete argument rather than a collection of bits and pieces of evidence pointing to it. hope all of this made sense

tldr; man idk no summing up this one as to not take away from the overall statement im making with this. read the post 🫶

#camp camp meta analysis #camp camp #this is looooong sorry op im a yapper at heart #this ask made me pace around in a break room like a crazy person hope u are happy 😒 <- slash positive #i didn’t talk a lot abt the post parents day stuff u mentioned simply bc idk what to add onto it u hit that one on the head lol #allowed myself to dadvid out here a little hope u don’t mind #also im so fucking sorry i mentioned freud again this man is the shit sometimes send the flood #max cc #david cc #dadvid #in a way

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trinkerichi · 6 months

Note

What is your oppion on ribbun?

OOOH that's Jax/Gangle right? Oh boy you probably aren't asking for this but I feel like doing a big ramble and this is gonna be a long one. CHARACTER ANALYSIS INCOMING!

I'll preface this by saying I don't usually get too invested in shipping. I really like drawing interesting character dynamics tho, so I'll play around with the ships I see without really sticking to one. It's why I tend to draw a LOT of different ships only a few times each.

I'll ALSO preface by saying I really uh. Don't like Jax very much lmao I'm sorry. I'm not opposed to jerk characters in general, but I just didn't think any of his lines were funny. BUT I think that comes down to the fact that we only have a pilot and haven't seen much of their personalities yet. My favorite jerk characters, (Osomatsu, Bender, etc) all balance out their jerkiness by being dorky insecure losers that almost never win in the end so you kinda feel bad for them. I think if Jax ends up being written that way I'll become endeared to him. And goose has revealed before that none of the others actually like Jax so I kinda want to see that.

On the other hand, Gangle is my favorite character. She has barely 2 minutes of screen time but I love her concept so much. A friend called me out for this recently lol but all my BIG FAVS are characters that are themed around strong divided emotions. Pretending they're happy even when they're not, and having a hard time controlling their emotions as a result. (The latest ENA episode was a great example of this. Anyway.) Gangle being a sensitive flimsy pile of ribbons with a literal mask for a face? The fact that the tragedy mask seems to be her REAL face, while the comedy mask is so fragile that breaks if you so much as breathe on it too hard? I find that COMPELLING I want to see a whole series about her honestly.

Pairing her with Jax was inevitable, as is any fandom ship where the characters hate each other in canon. I usually hate this kind of pairing but this time I found it kinda fascinating! I think it's cause we don't really know a whole lot about either one of them so there's a lot of room to explore their characters through it.

I really do feel like Jax could hold a specific resentment towards Gangle. He's obviously not handling being stuck in the circus well, and he's bullying easy targets. He plays dirty. A person with high self esteem doesn't do that. Maybe he takes it out on Gangle because he hates how open she is about her feelings. He's putting on a tough and uncaring front, trying to pretend nothing bothers him, and she's out here being sensitive and fragile? How dare she! He's pushing her to her limits and she still won't harden herself. She doesn't have the energy to! Maybe she feels like she doesn't deserve to defend herself. It's so unhealthy! It's horrible!... And uh, sometimes horrible things are fun to write! DON'T JUDGE ME.

(And just so nobody accuses me of being insensitive here, without revealing too much, I've been in Gangle's place before. That's all I'll say.)

So with relationship stuff oh boy. We can take all those toxic traits to their extremes. But who would be the instigator?

What if Gangle coped with Jax's bullying by becoming more clingy. Becoming used to it.. Seeking him out. After all, he's paying attention to her right? Her warped self image being depressed and isolated in this circus for years would drive her to wanting any kind of stimulation.. does she realize this is self harm? What's it going to take for someone to step in before it goes too far?

Or on the other hand, what if Jax's fixation on bullying Gangle got mixed up in some more complex feelings.. If he really wanted to, I can see him manipulating her into a relationship just to see how many boundaries he can cross. He could have her wrapped around his little finger. Literally. He DOES have some misplaced affection for her deep down. He won't let himself think about it long enough to understand it, he's acting on impulse. She's uncomfortable but thankful for the seemingly lessened cruelty, so she puts up with it. And sometimes, rarely, between the thinly veiled insults disguised as compliments, he says something truly genuine and vulnerable. She can see it. He needs help. He needs love. But they're both hurting each other even more. It's wrong, but they're stuck now.

And now.. for the drama. Nobody can be pushed that far before snapping. As is the usual trope with soft spoken pushover characters, Gangle is a ticking time bomb. And I don't think she'd be willing to abstract entirely because of Jax, at least without clawing her way down.

Here's a fun fact. Have you seen that walk cycle video? Jax is tall, sure, but Gangle is PRETTY DARN TALL TOO. and she slouches. With her ribbons stretched to their full length she would tower over everybody. I want to see her get angry and be SCARY. I want her to stand up to Jax and lash out and scream and see him Genuinely Terrified. Everyone else caught in the crossfire too, covered in ribbon slashes. It wouldn't last forever. If the tension doesn't cause her to abstract she'll calm down eventually, or someone will be forced to break her mask to snap her out of the tantrum. Jax would pretend it didn't shake him at all, but would be noticeably quiet afterwards. Kinda shifting uncomfortably, they both avoid eye contact for as long as possible. His teasing towards Gangle never goes beyond slight ribbing again.

Whew.

Ok uh if you read this far, I don't LIKE the ship but it's a great character exercise! Hah I've thought a lot about it clearly. That being said, i usually prefer sweet cuddly ships myself. I think my favorite is Gangle/Pomni. I haven't seen this one around much, but those two are my favorite characters in the show and I'd love to see them interact! I think they could help each other with their anxieties and it'd be really cute. I don't even necessarily need it to be romantic I just think they'd have a sweet little dynamic together.

Surprisingly I've seen Gangle shipped with Zooble the most even though they haven't talked at all either and Zooble has like.. 2 lines. It might be cute but I wanna know more about them first.

As for Gangle n Kinger, I prefer them to have more of a father daughter type dynamic.

#trinket rambles #tadc #ribbun #jax #Gangle #the amazing digital circus #longpost #abuse m #self harm m

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sineala · 9 months

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Superheroes and ethics

I realized that I wrote this last month on Patreon and forgot to post it here. I got asked to write meta about superhero ethics with regard to Steve and Tony. I ended up writing mostly about how Captain America's Plot Armor interacts with his principles.

I have been asked to talk about ethics and philosophy with respect to Steve and Tony. Unfortunately, the only philosophy-adjacent disciplines that I know well enough to speak about with any confidence are formal semantics and pragmatics, which isn't really all that useful in daily life unless you'd really like to learn about the differences between entailment, presupposition, and implicature, and also the Gricean maxims of conversation, which are great if you want to completely ruin conversations by violating them as many times as you possibly can.

So I'm not a philosopher, sorry.

But! I can talk more informally about Steve and Tony and ethics.

And I know there's been a lot of meta -- and actual books -- written about their differing views. I have a book here, A Philosopher Reads Marvel Comics' Civil War: Exploring the Moral Judgment of Captain America, Iron Man, and Spider-Man, by Mark White, which I have not read yet but it sounds like this is probably the book you want to read if you want an actual philosophical analysis of this stuff. Judging by the reviews, the author decides to associate Tony with utilitarianism and Steve with deontology. That is probably fun. I am in no way qualified to talk about it. On an informal level, the thing I find fascinating about them is that, when it comes down to it, Steve and Tony are really not all that different.

I have been thinking about this for a while, because the last time I left anonymous asks open on Tumblr, the final ask I got before I decided that this wasn't a good idea was someone who wanted to pick a fight with me by asserting that Steve/Tony was a bad pairing because "they don't think alike, have different morals, different interests, and different emotional issues that the other is not capable of helping out with." This is one of the reasons why I don't have anon asks on anymore. But I thought it was honestly an interesting thing to think about.

So I have been pondering this on and off for a while, and I realized that the thing that really bugged me about it was that their general thesis was that Steve and Tony were bad for each other because they have nothing in common. See, I don't think that's true. I think they have a whole lot in common. But I am also willing to acknowledge that canon likes to put them in situations where they're at odds with each other and it seems fairly easy to come up with circumstances that will cause them to want to beat the stuffing out of each other. But, crucially, this doesn't mean they have nothing in common.

(I also think they actually have a lot of similar interests and are actually very capable of helping each other with their emotional issues, which canon demonstrates multiple times. But that'd be a different essay.)

For me, one of the reasons why Steve/Tony are so compelling as a pairing is because they are so similar. Let's call it, like, 95% similar. They are remarkably like-minded when it comes to their values and how they view the world. It's just that then they can fight, bitterly, over the remaining 5% of differences.

They work well together most of the time and it's just the bits where they almost work together that are so agonizing and provide so much material for fandom. Because it's not like they don't understand where the other one is coming from, what they want, or why they want it. They do. They just don't understand how the other person can come up with a different path to the answer given their shared goal and shared values. Steve doesn't understand how Tony is willing to do something that Steve thinks is wrong, and Tony thinks, I don't know, that Steve's ideals are too naive for the real world. Tony thinks Steve's plans are unrealistic and Steve thinks Tony's plans are unacceptable.

There's also an additional complication, which is that Steve as a character has a lot of plot armor that Tony doesn't. Steve decides what he thinks is moral and what he thinks is immoral, and he simply does not do the immoral thing. And the thing is that the narrative helps Steve out with this. It's fine if he's idealistic! It's even okay if his ideals are naive! He almost never has to go against them. I am saying this as a big fan of Steve. The story really helps him out.

For example, Steve thinks that killing is wrong, so he doesn't kill anyone, generally speaking. (Depending on the retcon you believe in, he may have in fact killed zero people in World War II, which is kind of ridiculous.) But in situations where the best of the options involves killing someone, someone pretty much always ends up dead. It's just that someone else does the dirty work. Steve surrounds himself with a lot of spies and assassins (Bucky, Sharon, Natasha) and those people kill the people who need killing.

In Civil War, Steve believes Registration is wrong, and he never has to change his mind. He probably still believes it's wrong. Instead of going on trial, he dies; he never has to face the consequences of any of his actions. The narrative shields him from that. When he comes back to life, Registration is gone and he gets a pardon from the president. It's all taken care of. He causes a lot of damage, and he doesn't even have to say he's sorry for trying to bash Tony's face in, in public, with witnesses, after having destroyed what looks like several city blocks.

So Steve never compromises his principles, because he has the luxury afforded to him by the plot so that he almost never has to be in a situation where he'd have to decide whether he should compromise his principles, say, for the sake of the greater good. He doesn't have to make that choice, because Marvel's not interested in writing stories where Steve has to make that choice. So it just… doesn't come up. He almost never has to put his ethics to an actual test. If you hand Steve the trolley problem, he'd just say, well, I'd save everyone. That's not an actual option in the trolley problem. But he's pretty much always going to be in a plot where he gets to do the right thing and save everyone.

Tony, though? Tony has to do terrible things for the sake of the greater good all the time. He doesn't get to opt out of the decisions. Even on a personal level, he has to do terrible things to himself. He has to decide probably at least half a dozen times whether he should wear the armor even if wearing the armor is hurting him -- say, when he decides to take on the LMD in the arc where he gets his first artificial heart, or in Armor Wars II, or in that storyline in the middle of Busiek's run after he gets beaten up by the Mandarin. And he always decides to wear the armor no matter what the personal cost is to his body. He ends up in a lot of fights where he has to take pretty bad damage to save the world -- and while Steve would also make that decision, Steve's going to heal up and be fine, like in his recent run where Bucky shoots him in the shoulder. He has a healing factor and he's fine in a couple weeks. Tony breaks his back in order to save civilians and then gets addicted to morphine and ruins his life for a good long while. That kind of stuff, with lasting physical consequences, just doesn't happen to Steve. Let's not talk about Streets of Poison.

It's pretty obvious when you look at their biggest fights (say, Civil War and the incursions) that Tony believes that the ends justify the means, and Steve doesn't. However, Steve doesn't exactly have usable alternate suggestions. The plot armor helps him out there. Steve espouses extremely noble ideas, life and liberty and all that… that are not actually workable plans.

And because of how the narrative treats him, he doesn't really need to have workable plans, either. It's not like he actually uses them. Because he's just going to be fine. (Except in the incursions, but everyone came back to life afterward so it's all fine.)

Steve doesn't like the SHRA. Okay. Fine. He believes it's an unjust law. His plan is apparently to just… keep fighting Tony and anyone else who tries to take him into custody for not registering. What's his endgame? Does he have one? His plan appears to be "be on the run from the government forever." As far as I can remember, he would prefer the situation to go back to the way it was but he does not, to my knowledge, ever propose a way of achieving that. He's not out there saying the law itself should be found unconstitutional or anything.

Similarly, with the incursions, after the Gauntlet breaks, the Illuminati have no solution for an incursion that isn't building bombs and destroying the other Earth in the incursion. Either they act to destroy the other Earth, or through inaction, both Earths are destroyed. Big ol' trolley problem. Steve refuses to play. Steve says he can't countenance that. Excellent moral stance. It's very him. He says, "I believe we'll find a way to stop it." He doesn't have any ideas besides "not the thing Tony is doing," which appears to also be his stance about the SHRA. If they'd let Steve stay in the Illuminati… what would he have done? I suppose the possibility exists that if he managed to flip one of the scientists to his side he'd get them to think up an alternate answer. He could have suggested that everyone evacuate Earth. But he doesn't actually have an idea, personally for what to do. Other than "nobody should die."

(That isn't even what happens, in the end. Of course, by the end, Steve is trying to hunt Tony down and kill him, so you could argue that he's not really behaving much like himself there, and neither is Tony.)

Anyway. When you think about it, what Steve wants and what Tony wants, in both scenarios, is pretty much the same thing. They have the same values and the same goals; it's just that the paths they're willing to take are different. But when it comes down to it, they both actually want the exact same thing. Like they do most of the time. They both want to save the world. Except now they're fighting about how to get what they want. The fights are about the details. At least in 616.

We can contrast 616 Civil War with MCU Civil War. I have actually only watched CACW once, so this is going to be fun and possibly inaccurate. The 616 SHRA and the MCU Accords are, very broadly speaking, about the same general topic: government oversight of superheroes. In the MCU, after the disaster in Lagos, the UN decides that they can't just have the Avengers running around wherever they want, exploding things and getting people killed. Tony agrees with the need for UN oversight. Steve does not; he feels that the Avengers should be able to go wherever they need to go without getting caught up in red tape. Here in the MCU, Steve and Tony not only disagree on what the right thing to do is, they disagree on what the right outcome should be, and the reasons for that. Steve wants things the way they were. Tony would be okay with some amount of oversight. They both have different visions of the way the Avengers would look and operate, because they value different things; Steve wants autonomy and Tony wants accountability. The fight isn't just about the details. The fight is about everything.

This isn't the case in 616 Civil War. No one is fighting for (or against) "I, a superhero, should be able to go wherever I want for superhero reasons." UN oversight is one of those things that all the Avengers, including Steve, have agreed about for years; there are panels of Steve asking to get UN clearance before the Avengers zip off to Russia to save Tony. What happens in 616 is that an inexperienced superhero team gets into a fight they can't control, destroying a school in Stamford, CT, with massive casualties. The SHRA is a US bill saying that all American superhumans (which is probably thousands of people) should register with the government, receive training if they want to be heroes, and provide the government with their real names.

Both Steve and Tony are opposed to this, before Stamford. Then, when Stamford happens, Tony realizes the SHRA is happening no matter what and decides to support it. Even with the SHRA in effect, both Steve and Tony think there should be superhuman oversight; Steve just thinks it should be the teams training people up, the same way as they've always done. They don't even disagree about that; Tony also thinks they should be in charge of oversight, but he means himself (and Steve if Steve would ever join him). The people training superheroes would in fact still be them, both of them, no matter which side wins the war. Neither of them trust the government to handle Registration well. Steve's answer is to object to the very idea of Registration and to stay away from the government, and Tony's answer is to get in there and keep the superhero database in his own head so that Gyrich won't get the list of names and start sending Sentinels after everyone.

So they both massively distrust the government's presumed right and/or ability to safely do this, and want to protect superheroes from government oversight as much as possible. That's basically the same stance. Steve just thinks no one should get anywhere near the government, and Tony thinks if he gets in there he can make it less bad. He can be the guy doing the oversight. People who don't register might get arrested but at least they won't be killed by Sentinels, because he can stop that from happening. Steve isn't willing to imprison his friends at all, probably because he doesn't believe Tony when Tony says the only other option is death (i.e., they can't go back to the way things were -- although of course that's eventually what ends up happening, albeit long after Civil War is over). He probably thinks there's a secret third option, because for him there usually is. But what they basically want is the same thing. Tony's just willing to go a little farther than Steve is to get there.

Sure, Tony's plans aren't perfect. But he does have them. Sometimes they're really lousy, because sometimes there is no good solution. I acknowledge that he does a lot of things in Civil War that are actually pretty rotten. I am saying this as a fan of Tony. He does some bad things. He starts a war with Atlantis. He manipulates Peter Parker into unmasking, which has terrible consequences. He builds a prison. He imprisons a lot of his friends. But none of these things involve the government massacring superhumans. The one really, really bad future he's afraid of doesn't happen. (And we know, thanks to that one What If issue, that that's exactly what would happen if he weren't running Registration.) Other bad things happen, yes. But not that, which is the worst.

Steve doesn't want anything bad to happen. Steve just wants the good solutions, with no moral or ethical compromise on his part. and he usually gets them eventually by narrative fiat. Sometimes he has to die first -- which is, of course, what happens in Civil War -- but, eh, whatever, it's comics. That's not really a major drawback for superheroes. And eventually he gets what he wants, because comics return to the status quo. Everything goes back to the way it was.

It's the same thing with the incursions. Neither Steve nor Tony want their Earth to be destroyed, obviously, but Tony is willing to build bombs to destroy the other Earths in case they can't find any other solution. Steve says he thinks there will be another way. And neither of them want to use the bombs! Tony doesn't want to use them at all! The Illuminati don't actually find themselves in a situation where they have to decide whether to bomb a populated Earth until the Great Society incursion, and Tony refuses to be the one to do it. After Namor does it, Tony is distraught and says he thought they'd find another way -- which is the exact same thing Steve said to him except nobody kicked Tony off the Illuminati for saying it. They both have the same attitude. They want the same outcome. They don't want to use the bombs. It's just that Tony's willing to build them. They're pretty much on the same side here about everything (including the desire to not bomb other planets) except the lengths to which Tony is willing to go to have a backup plan. Just like Civil War.

I suppose I would say that, overall, comparing Steve and Tony's relative ethics seems hard to do in a way that is fair to both of them because Steve is so often given the ability to stick to his beliefs in a way that Tony isn't. "What does Steve do when he actually can't do the right thing" is one of those questions that doesn't seem to get explored all that much, except possibly at the end of Hickman's Avengers run, in which everything was going to hell anyway, and it wasn't like he got to be in Secret Wars to try to fix it. He does also tend to quit being Captain America when he doesn't like the government, although I think in that case that's more that doing the right thing at that time is Not Being Captain America.

(Secret Avengers is also a pretty good look at a Steve who has to do bad things and really, really doesn't like the things he's doing. He doesn't handle compromising his own values all that well. I think that would be a whole other essay.)

But anyway, yeah -- I think 616 Steve and Tony are on the same side when they fight, more than you might think they are given how many panels we have of them dramatically punching each other. Tony believes that the ends justify the means, and essentially, a lot of their fights are because Steve disagrees with Tony's means -- but he is very often 100% on board with Tony's actual motives, which I think is a fact that often gets lost when we start talking about their conflicts, because at that point we… want to talk about their conflicts. But I think they really do agree with each other a lot, which is what makes their conflicts so interesting and painful.

#posts i actually wrote

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