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doufudanshi · 25 days

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ON GHOSTS AND DEMONS: Wei Wuxian's "demonic" cultivation?

There are a few big misconceptions I have repeatedly seen in English-speaking fandom about things that are fundamental to the story of MDZS. One of them is this—

Wei Wuxian is not a demonic cultivator.

To prove this, let's take a deep dive into the original Chinese text of MDZS.

(Adapted from my original gdoc posted on Twitter on May 27, 2022. All translations my own unless otherwise stated.)

Demon vs. ghost

Let's start from the very basics. In addition to orthodox cultivation using spiritual energy and a golden core, there are two other forms of cultivation that are mentioned in the novel:

魔道 (mó dào), or “demon cultivation/path.”

鬼道 (guǐ dào), or “ghost cultivation/path.”

To be clear, 魔 mo "demons" and 鬼 gui "ghosts" (and thus their respective cultivation/paths) are not interchangeable because of the in-universe worldbuilding within MDZS. Using the characters in the term 妖魔鬼怪 "monsters," MXTX created four distinct categories of beings, each of which has a strict definition in the novel. From chapter 4 (jjwxc ch 13):

妖者非人之活物所化; 魔者生人所化; 鬼者死者所化; 怪者非人之死物所化。 Yāo (妖) are transformed from non-human living beings; mó (魔) are transformed from living people; guǐ (鬼) are transformed from the deceased; guài (怪) are transformed from non-human dead beings.

And of course, WWX hoards all the ghost-type pokemon monsters at the Phoenix Mountain tournament, and he only exerts control over corpses, spirits, and the like (aka people who have already died). (As opposed to Xue Yang, who appears to have been actively trying to make 魔 "demons" out of living people with those "living corpses" of his, perhaps.) (And, ironically, in order to avoid showing necromancy / zombies on screen, CQL technically does show WWX practicing demon cultivation because everyone is "supposedly alive" even when they're corpses? Which is, funnily enough, far worse morally in the MDZS universe, lol.)

So, intuitively at least, we know that WWX must be practicing ghost cultivation—now let's look at some concrete examples from the book.

Running the numbers

1) 魔道 (mó dào) means “demon cultivation.” As such, it must use living humans.

魔道 appears one (1) time in the novel.

Yes, once. The only time it appears is in the term 魔道祖师 modao zushi, or the namesake of the novel, in chapter 2. This is a title the general public has given him through rumors:

魏无羡好歹也被人叫了这么多年无上邪尊啦、魔道祖师啦之类的称号，这种一看就知道不是什么好东西的阵法，他自然了如指掌。 Wei Wuxian wasn’t called titles like “The Evil Overlord,” “The Founder of Demon Cultivation,” and so on over the years by others for nothing—he knew these sorts of obviously shady formations like the back of his hand.

2) 鬼道 (guǐ dào) means “ghost cultivation.” As such, it must use dead humans.

鬼道 appears 12 times in the novel.

Here is the first instance that 鬼道 appears, which I believe is the first time Wei Wuxian's method of cultivation is properly introduced. From chapter 3 (jjwxc ch 8):

蓝忘机 […] 对魏无羡修鬼道一事极不认可。 Lan Wangji […] had never approved of the fact that Wei Wuxian practiced ghost cultivation.

Here's another quote from chapter 15 (jjwxc ch 71) for funsies:

蓝忘机看着他，似乎一眼就看出他只是随口敷衍，吸了一口气，道：“魏婴。” Lan Wangji looked at him as if he saw through his half-hearted bluff. He took in a breath, then said, “Wei Ying.” 他执拗地道：“鬼道损身，损心性。” He stubbornly continued, “Ghost cultivation harms one’s body, and harms one’s nature.”

3) 邪魔歪道 (xiemowaidao) means heretical path/immoral methods/evil practices/underhanded means/etc—e.g., lying, cheating, stealing, bribery, and so on.

It appears ~24 times in the novel.

I mention this last term because it is often used to refer to Wei Wuxian's cultivation, but as a pejorative. Every instance of 邪魔歪道 is said by or to quote someone looking down upon Wei Wuxian’s cultivation (Jin Zixun, Jin Ling, etc.) and referring to it derogatorily, whereas every instance of 鬼道 guidao/ghost dao is said by someone discussing it neutrally and/or factually (Lan Jingyi, Lan Wangji, Wei Wuxian himself, random cultivators at discussion conferences, the narration, etc.). Here is a pertinent example with Jin Ling (derogatory) and Lan Jingyi (neutral) in chapter 9 (jjwxc ch 43):

金凌怒道：“是在谈论薛洋，我说的不对吗？薛洋干了什么？他是个禽兽不如的人渣，魏婴比他更让人恶心！什么叫‘不能一概而论’？这种邪魔歪道留在世上就是祸害，就是该统统都杀光，死光，灭绝！” “We are discussing Xue Yang,” Jin Ling said angrily. “Am I wrong? What did Xue Yang do? He’s scum that’s lower than a beast, and Wei Ying is even more disgusting than him! What do you mean ‘don’t make sweeping generalizations?’ As long as those practicing this kind of demoniac, heretical path are alive, they’ll continue to bring disaster. We should slaughter all of them, kill all of them, annihilate them once and for all!” 温宁动了动，魏无羡摆手示意他静止。只听蓝景仪也加入了，嚷道：“你发这么大火干什么？思追又没说魏无羡不该杀，他只是说修鬼道的也不一定全都是薛洋这种人，你有必要乱摔东西吗？那个我还没吃呢……” Wen Ning shuffled around. Wei Wuxian gestured at him to stay still, only to hear Lan Jingyi also cut in loudly, “Why are you getting so riled up? It’s not like Sizhui said Wei Wuxian shouldn’t have been killed. All he said was that people who practice ghost cultivation aren’t necessarily all like Xue Yang. Do you have to go around breaking things? I didn’t even get to eat any of that yet…”

Tl;dr—Wei Wuxian does not 修魔道 practice demon cultivation. When Wei Wuxian’s craft is discussed in a neutral and factual manner, it is referred to as 鬼道 ghost dao.

In fact, Wei Wuxian’s imitators are also referred to explicitly as 鬼道修士 ghost cultivators.

魏无羡早就听说过，这些年来江澄到处抓疑似夺舍重生的鬼道修士，把这些人通通押回莲花坞严刑拷打。 Wei Wuxian had heard a while back that over the past few years, Jiang Cheng had gone around snatching any ghost cultivator suspected of being possessed or reborn, detaining them in Lotus Pier to interrogate them using torture.

So why the confusion?

Of course, there is the matter of the novel's title, which I will get into in a second. But the real issue is a matter of translation.

The idea that WWX uses "demonic cultivation" is a misconception in English-speaking fandom due to issues with the translation of terminology. Of note, EXR actually did translate 鬼道 guidao as "ghostly path" most of the time, though there were at least 3 instances of "demonic" and 1 instance of "dark," especially regarding the first few.

However, this misconception was perpetuated (and arguably worsened) by 7S's official translation, which not only mistranslated additional terms as "demonic cultivation/path" (at least in book 1), but also consistently mistranslated every instance of 鬼道 as "demonic cultivation/path."

So why is this book called 魔道祖师, commonly translated as "Grandmaster of Demonic Cultivation?"

One possibility is one posed in Chinese-language meta online, which often cites that WWX himself is a sort of 魔 demon. While this may be true—after all, he can hear the voices of the dead—it doesn't quite explain the fact that the title sets him up to be the 祖师 or "founder."

My take is that this novel is very much concerned with hearsay vs. truth. This is one of the many monikers WWX is given by the public, who collectively view him as evil. (Also of note is that the non-cultivator public is not aware of all the nuances that cultivators learn re: distinctions between the 妖魔鬼怪 monsters.) In the quote from earlier, note that the first title we're given is actually 无上邪尊 “The Evil Overlord,” then 魔道祖师 "The Founder of Demon Cultivation." Like, what can that be other than MXTX telling us, "please take both of these with a HUGE grain of salt, lol."

(And not only the title, but the very first line—"魏无羡死了。" / "Wei Wuxian is dead."—is a lie.)

I think the title is genius, honestly. It intentionally makes readers come into the novel with preconceived notions that Wei Wuxian practices 魔道 demon cultivation and evil techniques—just like the public in the novel. What better way to tell a story warning about the dangers of how easy it is to fall for misinformation and jump to incorrect conclusions?

(Though, in our case, perhaps it worked a little too well.)

#魔道祖师 #mdzs #mdzs meta #mdzs translation #wei wuxian #wwx #demonic cultivation #ghost cultivation #mine #doufudanshi translation #crossposted from twitter #(sort of)

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wifiwuxians · 7 months

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happy mid-autumn festival!!! i hope it's a day of good fortune and reunion for everyone! i yearn for the day in which i am able to eat a mooncake.

much to my chagrin this drawing appears very different on desktop and on mobile but oh well. i think i'll take a crack at writing an ID for this one, just because there are a few characters! including xunyang 83 everyone else is offscreen lol but they're there i promise

[ID: a scene depicting a moonlit picnic to mark the start of mid-autumn festival, featuring several characters from MDZS, as well as two of the artist's own characters from a fic titled Dawn Chorus. in the bottom left corner sit Wen Zhuliu, Wang Lingjiao, Mo Xuanyu and Wen Chao. they are conversing pleasantly. the bottom right corner hosts Jiang Yanli, Jiang Cheng, Jin Zixuan and Jin Ling, alongside a puppy version of Fairy. Jiang Yanli has brought her famous soup, as well as some spring rolls. Jin Ling is lying down and holding a lantern as his mother strokes his back. Jin Zixuan has a loving arm around his wife's torso. behind them, Jiang Cheng is attempting to wrangle Fairy and keep her from eating their food. above and to the left sit the Dawn Chorus characters Wen Xun and the fic-specific version of Xue Yang, who has his arm around him as he laughs. they've brought wine. in Xue Yang's lap sits an infant, Hexie, who is reaching out to a fruit gleefully offered to them by Standard Edition Xue Yang, who is sitting a bit ahead with A-Qing, Xiao Xingchen and Song Lan, who smile at the scene while drinking tea and eating. they've brought a platter of crab. to the right of them sit Wei Wuxian and Lan Wangji, who are happily holding Lan Sizhui between them. their snack is watermelon. behind them, just arriving, are Mianmian, who is carrying her daughter in her arms, and her husband, who is carrying their lantern and food. behind them is Wen Qing, who is calling out to Wen Ning, who is rushing up to her with a smile and a box in his hands. the corner of a blanket in the top left and the top of someone's head in the bottom right suggest there are more people at the gathering. a few white flowers bloom on the grass everyone sits on, predominantly around Wen Xun. every picnic blanket has mooncakes, and most characters brought lanterns. many other lanterns are seen floating by and up into the sky, towards the full moon. the atmosphere is friendly and lighthearted. /end ID]

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rarepears · 1 year

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I saw the idea of qi qingqi x yu ziyuan and I propose :

an au of where jiang cheng post!mdzs is stepping down as sect leader and is actually looking for a cultivation partner - cue him finding one in the qiong ding peak leader of the newly ascended generation. They're really happy - she doesn't fit 99% of his criteria and is a whole head taller than him but it's actually great! they're happy! -She even introduces him to the old generation - including her shifu, Yue Qingyuan. In the wedding preparations, he meets the ascended lords, including Qi QIngqi, who is shocked by JC's appearance. Cue JC finding out abt his mother's old lover and being conflicted as he re examines the complexes that affected his childhood.

also I like to think that WWX and JC slightly reconciled post MDZS, so his reaction at meeting QQQ would be interesting.

Okay but why would Jiang Cheng step down? Even ignoring why he would desire to step down, before he can step down, he has to designate a heir - a heir that isn't directly related to him like a son but pick a cousin, somehow, from the very very few blood-related Jiangs left alive, to say nothing else of their cultivation level. For him to put his foot down on this plan, it means that he and the elders don't expect Jiang Cheng to have any blood-related children - not just because traditionally things are passed down from father to son and blood takes precedent, but also there would be a succession issue if Jiang Cheng suddenly has a kid with stronger blood claims...

Then Jiang Cheng has to spend quite a number of years training said heir. He's doing this while also teaching and helping Jin Ling with the whole mess that is the Jin Sect.

(There's no reason why Jiang Cheng can't hunt for a cultivation partner while remaining sect leader. The elders would be ecstatic and any transition of power is a period of weakness for the sect, so the longer they can delay Jiang Cheng passing the power over, the better.

So the elders would far rather that an interim sect leader handles matters while Jiang Cheng is on a sabbatical to find a cultivation partner. If it happens to be a male partner, they don't care - Lan Wangji and Wei Wuxian have made it trendy and anything is better than nothing when it comes to Jiang Cheng who seemed like he was going to be an eternal bachelor. Perhaps this new partner can help them convince the Jiang Sect Leader to at least have a concubine or two for blood heirs!)

Also I'm sure that Jiang Cheng would feel even more like he's betraying his ancestors by giving up his position for something as "frivolous" as looking for love.

Other than that, lol imagine the Jiang elders have a mini heart attack when Jiang Cheng brings back not just a female(!!!!) cultivation partner (that he can have kids with!!! No more inane planning to be done to trick the sect leader into having kids!!!) but also his mother's old lover?!?!?!

(Insert Liu Mingyan in the back writing a love story based on Wei Wuxian and Lan Wangji's lover story, being careful to mention how Lan Wangji's pillar was so large, it was almost large enough to rival that of the demon emperor's. But only almost.

Wei Wuxian takes incredible offense to that heh.)

[More in #Jiang Cheng finds out that qi qingqi X yu ziyuan was once a Thing while he finds himself a cultivation partner from Cang Qiong AU]

#ask #svsss #the scum villain's self saving system #mxtx #the untamed #mdzs ideas #mdzs #the grandmaster of demonic cultivation #jiang cheng #jiang wanyin #qi qingqi #qi qingqi x yu ziyuan #svsss ideas #svsss au #mao dao zu shi #Jiang Cheng finds out that qi qingqi X yu ziyuan was once a Thing while he finds himself a cultivation partner from Cang Qiong AU

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jiangwanyinscatmom · 2 years

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Because of your recent answer for that ask about loving jc, i wanna ask something. Just to confirm. Do you think jc was kinda not bad, before wwx-resurrection, to jl?? I mean, i get that he can do better from now on that he has his answers. His anger abated by the truth and all. He got his happy ending after all, he finally can let go of all that unsaid terror (his embarrassing words in guanyin). He has his relationship with his nephew, i never thought of it as something loving. He always threatened him and we were also shown that he hit him. So yeah, not the best. But back to my question, considering that jl is the only relation he got in post canon, he can be better and all. I leave that all to possibility. Real question is was he bad before that, or what you think? He can help jl and all, but it do3snt he have always does. Its kind of hard to let go of your only family member that connects him to his mother side (in jl pov). Im not saying abuse, or neglect. Its just, there was never an opportunity to see if he was good outside of the interaction theyd had. I know im a mess but arghh, i may sound like "oh i har jc and its justified because he is bad" but noo, i like him so its hard to know if i really like him or my idea of him. So yeah, asking.

LOL. No he was not at all good to Jin Ling before Wei Wuxian's resurrection. There is a reason that we have these scenes juxtaposed with each other for Lan Sizhui's mention of an upbringing and Jin Ling's,

1: Lan Sizhui

Wei Wuxian looked him over. He was fair and refined, with a dignified appearance and a faint smile. Wei Wuxian silently, approved of him. The flag formation was organized neatly, and his mannerisms were also respectful, making him a disciple with astonishing potential. He didn’t know who, within such a conservative clan as Gusu Lan, could have possibly raised such a junior.

2: Jin Ling:

The youth saw him zone out and grew annoyed. “Get outta here! Just seeing your face disgusts me. Damn cut-sleeve.”

In terms of seniority, it was possible Mo Xuanyu might have been this boy’s uncle or some other elder. And yet he had to suffer such humiliation from a junior. Even if it wasn’t for his own self, at least for the sake of Mo Xuanyu's body, Wei Wuxian felt he had a responsibility to humiliate the boy back.

So, he countered, “Such attitude, did your mother teach you manners?

Jin Ling was raised to be spoiled and felt as if he was better based on his heritage, and this is all due to Jiang Cheng's general attitude that he himself exhibits. He was the son of one of the great clans, he was owed automatic support from others while not needing to help or show gratitude in turn for given support.

Jiang Cheng, even if he did love and want to shelter Jin Ling in some way, still was verbally awful to him in each interaction we see from him. From his first appearance with Jin Ling, he is trying to protect him and come to his aid, whoever, he also bitingly reprimands him for being incompetent and choosing to speak with "Mo Xuanyu" instead of just killing him and leaving.

His second appearance is yet again him reprimanding Jin Ling and wishing he could smack him in front of many others and is only withheld from doing just that because they are surrounded by outsiders. The third is him yet again ordering and barking orders to Jin Ling to do as he says and takes presidency of hunting an absent Wen Ning down instead of keeping an eye on Jin Ling. His hate comes first yet again and Jin Ling is left to salvage safety for Wei Wuxian and run away from Jiang Cheng's temper again for not letting Jiang Cheng kill another seemingly random cultivator.

The next scene we are given is within Jinlintai, where Jin Ling is choosing to hide behind Jin Guangyao instead of going immediately back to Jiang Cheng, who apparently he ran from after the situation in Qinghe. Supposedly because Jin Ling wouldn't want to deal with Jiang Cheng's anger of letting "Mo Xuanyu" go and another lecture of not doing as Jiang Cheng tells him to.

The one glimpse of worry we do get is Jiang Cheng trying to give Jin Ling Zidian and telling him to run as soon as possible while he is going to attempt to keep corpses at bay. Jin Ling of course can't leave his Uncle who he loves unprotected, so he symbolically rejects the tragedy of Zidian and the unvoiced love given in his hands to be left with bitterness and resentment only as memories. Jin Ling is now rejecting the pattern that Jiang Cheng has set up between them for years. Yet he does go to Jiang Cheng for some sort of comfort on the boat, as he does see him as some sort of safety and something that he is used to. He does not need to have a crisis of his own doubts if he s near Huang Cheng, because he is the one who had raised him with his current mindset. He is used to that being his truth and that remaining solid.

No, it wasn't ideal, it wasn't the best, but it is what he is used to. When you are young, you do not see the discrepancies of something being strange or off until you are exposed to other ways, even when a part of you knows deep down the one who is supposed to raise you, is not a "good person". Jiang Cheng is bitter, hateful, mean, and cruel and no outward spared kindness. But yet sometimes, you can't help but love that sort of person who has been in your life, and it's a matter of standing up and saying what you will take from them, on your own grounds and boundaries, as you get older.

And, if anything has been learned by Jiang Cheng in the end, he is not owed adoration and love because he chose to stand by someone he loves and calls family when all other experiences with him have been awful towards them.

#mdzs #mo dao zu shi #canon jiang cheng #jin ling #love is not owed to anyone just because you support them #it is not a stipulation you give if you love people

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repressed-wangji · 1 year

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If I were to re-edit CQL, this is how I would do it.

Let’s face it- the first episode of the show is nearly unwatchable. I know it’s accurate to the book, but it is confusing, off-putting, and definitely turns people off of the show before giving it a chance. Here’s what I’d change:

First, I would keep the opening exactly the same. The scene of wwx’s death at Nevernight is an AMAZING intro and introduces us to the major characters (wwx, lwj, and jc) and where the story is going. Keep it all. 11/10.

The first change I’d make is what we hear as wwx falls. In the show, the storyteller hired by Nie Huisang begins speaking in voiceover. This leads into the future timeline.

Scrap that. Instead, you’d hear an echo of Yanli yelling “A-Xian!” Text would then appear indicating that we are jumping back in time (“Before”? “In the Past”? We don’t actually know how long the Sunshot Campaign is)

It’d then fade in on the first chronological scene: Wwx lounging on a boat in the town near Cloud Recesses. We hear Yanli calling “A-Xian!” until he notices, just as it plays out now.

The show then proceeds through Wwx’s first life. We are immediately intrigued to learn that the person we just saw kill him is in fact his brother. We are also intrigued by the fact that lwj, who we just saw try and save him, starts out despising him.

No craziness at Mo Manor, no trying to piece together what the heck is happening… just straight (lol) narrative.

Then, we get to wwx falling again. We know how this ends. We hear lwj say “Wei Ying” softly. It fades to black.

But wait a minute. We’re only 33 episodes in. That’s the end of the story……right????

BOOM text appears saying “Sixteen Years Later” The audience goes “THERE’S MORE???” and now we hear the storyteller: “As for Wei Wuxian, sixteen years ago…” It fades into the Lan juniors listening to the story, and off we go with wwx’s second life.

We now KNOW who wwx is! We can see first hand how the legends about him have ballooned. We know who the major clans are. We can guess that nhs is behind it all (if you’re paying close enough attention) and we feel the same confusion and uncertainty as wwx does about “I’m supposed to be dead, why was I brought back?”

Notably, we get to see post-time skip lwj for the first time with the same anticipation as wwx. We can guess who Jin Ling and Sizhui are before wwx does (as it is now, we have to piece together that he had a sister at some point but I guess she died? Again, it’s so confusing for first-time watchers. Also, this way, you would have NO idea that Yanli dies until it happens. Imagine). We know the baggage of Jiang Cheng and wwx’s relationship. We remember the dancing statue lady from previous episodes, instead of learning about it for the first time.

And oh my GOSH the reunion between wwx and lwj?? The anticipation?? The emotion?? There’s a reason people go back and rewatch this scene after finishing the show: It is 300x more emotional with context!!

Wwx still faints after reuniting with lwj and jc, but then he wakes up afterwards at Cloud Recesses, and the show plays out from there. He reminisces, and so do we.

——

Not everyone will agree, but I think it works MUCH better this way. Anyways, maybe I’ll make an actual edit of this show one day to rest my soul 😂

#the untamed #cql #meta #chen qing ling

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inexchangeforyoursoul · 1 year

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time for some actual blogging bc why not

So anyway, I read that gay Chinese zombie book. I have not read an actual book since forever and was doomed, when originally writing this, to wait out the arrival of the rest of the series that I've promptly ordered, and you know what? Let's write a review is what.

For the dry tl;dr we are talking about a strong 8.5 for the first volume, and even that is because of display A, me not being interested in 80% of the school flashback chapter, and display B, the kajillions of similar names that get spiced up with the 2-4 fancy titles of the big shots which get used interchangeably as per demand. Not my demands, but probably good manners' which I'm a stranger to. The short bios of people in the front are a blessing if you want to follow who's who early on; obviously, I didn't savor it as if it was some holy scripture, but for the first chapter you also don't even need it.

Speaking of content, this was not something I expected with my main previous information source being random osmosis via internet. In fact, all I knew is that a main character comes back from the dead, there's other dead people, everyone is wearing pretty much traditional clothes and it's allegedly some good gay shit.

But this wasn't much of a preparation. See, that info was out of context mumbo-jumbo, much like what I'm trying to tap together right now to avoid spoilers. This isn't a fantasyfied period piece or a love story despite one of the main characters working a whole ass pine plantation. (Wonder how long it will take Wei Wuxian till the yuan drops, really. Current gayness rating is 3/10 btw as apart from his body having belonged to an outed twenty-something year old and him playing it up for either giggles or strategy, there's not much else to it.) What I'm trying to say is that man, when I bought the paperback seeing it was 50% off for roughly 5 'Murrican bucks I certainly wasn't expecting a supernatural action detective story with an enjoyable cast and a cliffhanger I wanted to punch a wall over. Color me intrigued. But there's another point I'd like to make.

The point being that the book is funny as hell. Of course this doesn't say much as my sense of humor is pretty niche, but I digress.

Wei Wuxian is a feral gremlin. A very professional and kind-hearted one, but a menace nonetheless. The number of times he's willingly done something irresponsible or stupid followed by regret .5 seconds later is on par with the number typos I've found in my translation. Which isn't a whole whole lot, but it's weird it happened as many times as it did. I'd ask how he's still alive, but, y'know…

The straight man to his antics (lol), Lan Wangji, is usually as interesting as a freshly whitened wall but when he isn't he's amazing. Also has the best scene in the whole volume, hands down. I was reassured there's more of the same to come and I'm filled with giddy anticipation because it had me thriving.

The Lan boys are sweethearts, I hope they'll stick around. They have their own little shenanigans and even if you aren't big on them you'll still look forward to their unexpected appearances once you realize that they are an indicator of shit hitting the whirling device and whipping up a whole entire storm in the very foreseeable future.

Wuxian's uh… nephew? I think it's his nephew. (He's called Jin Ling. I recognize it already, but haven't memorized it yet.) He is very punchable but obviously also a kid and I'm starting to worry for him, man. Either way, he has a demonic hellhound. Name's Fairy. Nuff said.

Then this new Xiao dude is fascinating me for a number of reasons, but even if he wasn't he had the funniest line in the book about 5 pages before things became wild and I was slapped across space-time and jail bars on the face with a to be continued.

The fact that this is a longer story that allows you to dwell on and theorize about stuff is also something I greatly appreciate as a One Piece and Homestuck fan. Theory crafting for an ongoing series is half of the fun, really!! (Ok, it's not ongoing, but I'm forced to treat it as such.) How will we get rid of Wen Ning's shackles? What even is he like when conscious? How long will it take for people other than Wei Wuxian's contemporaries to realize who he is? Will he drop the act himself seeing it's only a question of time until the info spreads? How close is Jin Ling to realizing that his uncle was right? Will he turn on Wuxian entirely or is he invested enough to stick around? Will he turn out to be a respectable cultivator later or be sacrificed for an especially tragic plot twist? What about Wei Wuxian's chances of survival in his current position? For that matter, will all the Lan boys live till the very end? Was the blind man pulling the strings all along or was he tricked into the murder and turned to the forbidden arts in desperation?? Are we fighting for our very lives or merely being tested right now?! Either way, the overpowered zombie talisman is nearby, the plot thickens!!!

So much to think about, I love it!

And although the whys and hows of the logistics are a total question mark, since about halfway through the volume, I have been about 80% convinced of who the unalive person we're on a quest to reassemble is. It's low-key worrying for a number of reasons, but whatever. But this is just a theory. A literary theory.

…

The next volumes can't arrive soon enough, man. (Before I posted this, they already did. Brb I need to rehydrate.)

#Kate reads

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twinclownsoflotuspiers · 3 months

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What if I tried to categorise my favorite characters according to whatever reasons I fave them for?

[I have a few top faves who I'm super biased for even amongst faves. They are namely (in order of oldest to newest): Gaara, Rukia, Jiang Cheng & Wei Wuxian, Helian Yi, Diluc & Kaeya, Collei. Some don't appear often in categories but doesn't lessen my bias for them]

1. The Cane - (by that I mean the stem and not a walking cane) blorbos who come off as kinda stiff, stubborn, headstrong, have gone through traumas and would like to say "Fuck You" to the world and keep existing out of sheer spite, some of them are kinda angy. Ones I have the most fun breaking. Notable egs: Jiang Cheng (ofc lol), Wei Wuxian (Laozu version at least), pre Shippuden Gaara, Diluc, recently Mikaela Hyakuya.

2. The Indulgees - some of them have slight to loads sadism potential. Either misfits or also traumatised or both. Mido's "youngest child" syndrome characters AKA who I'd indulge in every possible way. They could commit murder and I'd smile and enable them. Enjoy angst of but don't enjoy whump. Notable egs: Kaeya (big one. I will gib him everything, including but not limited to Ayaka's stolen sword). Kuya (bitch cucks every single one of my nukani pulls but I unfortunately love him still). Zhuzhi-Lang. Wen Qing(? Maybe?). Nezumi.

3. Greek Tragedy Heroines - there's nothing but angst going on for them. My heart breaks for them and I want to give them happy endings but canon broke them so badly that I am stuck still trying to figure out how to go about it. Notable egs, Shen Jiu *sobs*. Yue Qingyuan *sobs even more*. HELIAN YI. Tong Ru. Han Muchun.

4. Sunshine Personified - the few "feel good sweet af wonderful characters who have never done anything wrong in their lives" I genuinely love and am interested in. Notable egs, Eiden, Han Muchun once again, Amber, Liang Jiuxiao *sobs*, NOELLE, Collei (hush. She's never done ANYTHING wrong in her life).

5. Wife. WIFE - favorites mostly for gay reasons. Yes they're all girls. Some have genuinely great backgrounds I love though, like added treats to the gay. Notable egs, Rosaria (can she impale me with her ice lance?), Yae Miko, Wen Qing (again), Rukia, Yoruichi, Lumine (both Abyss & Traveler versions, coz she's got range)

6. Wet Dog - you're Pathetic (affectionate). No, I will not elaborate. Notable egs, Jiang Cheng, Luo Binghe, Edmond, Dante.

7. Emotional Baggage - tragic af but not Greek Heroine levels. I would like to hug them tight and tell them they did well. Notable egs are MOST of my top faves, but also Xiao, Jin Ling, Yatogami Kuroh.

8. Terrible Child - I don't even know why I like you. You're awful (affectionate). Notable eg, Tartaglia, Kuya (yes, him too). Zhou Zishu & Wen Kexing (they come as a pair, equally terrible)

9. Gremlin - they're usually very layered but I also love them best for being menaces. Notable egs, Wei Wuxian, Venti, Kaeya, Eiden, Yae Miko.

10. Daddy Issues - so many of my top faves share this theme, I take it as a running joke by now. They all sit at the table together to stew in silence over their papas fucking them over. Notable egs, Jiang Cheng, Gaara, Kaeya, Diluc, Rosaria, Luo Binghe, Helian Yi

I don't even know why I did this but oh well. This is mostly an accurate categorisation according to why I like my faves. A lot of them feel similar as characters but I like for differing reasons strangely enough.

#my writing #long post #fandom #favorite character headcanons and canons #yes in case you couldn't tell #I'm bored #I'm also introspecting a lot on why I like specific characters and what is different between how I like each of them #because I want to grow as a writer and also do justice to all my faves in their individual ways #but also mostly coz I'm bored and a wee bit frustrated

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grewlikefancyflowers · 3 years

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JC’s deeply rooted resentment of WWX, JFM’s parenting, and the inevitability of the falling out of the ‘Yunmeng bros’.

In discussion of the breakdown of JC and WWX’s relationship, their falling out is often regarded as a mutual failing on both sides to properly communicate and maintain their relationship. I’m making the case here that their falling out was a foregone conclusion from the start, and in no part due to the actions of Wei Wuxian.

This is because YZY has instilled in JC the idea that JFM dislikes him, something he believes before WWX arrives in Lotus Pier, JC already feels inferior, thus as soon as potential competition for JFM’s attention comes along in the form of WWX, JC resents him, believes JFM prefers him, and looks for reasons to justify this.

Summarising their very first interactions - from chapter 71 - WWX arrives at LP, sees JC with his puppies and is so terrified that he refuses to come down from JFM’s arms the entire day. The second day, JFM gives JC’s puppies away.

Now, I would like to think that no one seriously believes that this is an act of favouritism, but I have seen this case being made so I just want to make clear that WWX is obviously traumatised by his previous interactions with dogs. After trying for a whole day to comfort WWX, with no success, JFM does not exactly have any other choice than to give the puppies away, WWX cannot be expected to live in constant terror in the place that is supposed to be his home.

Consequently, ‘This angered Jiang Cheng so much that he threw a big tantrum. No matter how much Jiang FengMian comforted him gently, telling him that they should ‘be good friends’, he refused to talk to Wei WuXian.’

JC’s reaction is fairly understandable for an 8 year old. JFM comforts JC, and does not treat him callously or dismiss him, however it takes several days until JC will even talk to WWX.

When JC does start to warm up to him, JFM thinks it’d be a good idea for them to have a sleepover, JC is on the ‘verge of agreeing’ to this, which JFM is overjoyed by - so much so that he picks WWX up.

This is not an example of favouritism, JFM doesn't repeatedly give affection to WWX and not JC, he holds him twice - the first instance being purely because WWX was too terrified to leave his arms, the second being this one. These are the only two times where JFM is described as being affectionate towards WWX, JC is still in the lead on this count. But JC interprets this as JFM preferring WWX.

This results in the JC shutting WWX out at night.

At that time, Wei WuXian didn’t know what Jiang Cheng was mad about at all. After a pause, he replied, “I didn’t steal anything. It’s Uncle Jiang who told me to sleep with you.”

Hearing that he was still bringing up his father, almost as if he was purposely showing off, Jiang Cheng’s eyes reddened as he yelled, “Go away! If I see you again, I’ll call a bunch of dogs to bite you!”

This is the important part - JC sees WWX in the worst possible light, and rarely thinks of WWX as a person outside of how he directly impacts JC - he concludes that WWX is purposefully antagonising him, this is a trend that continues well into adulthood.

Then, when WWX flees LP after JC threatens him with dogs, JYL tells JC to find people to help search for him. However,

‘If any other disciple or servant learned about this and told Jiang FengMian, after Jiang FengMian knew how he threw Wei WuXian’s sheets out and made him hurt his leg, Jiang FengMian would definitely dislike him even more. This was also why he only dared chase after them alone and didn’t get anyone else.’

JC has obviously behaved wrongly here, and JFM would be right to scold him for it, but JC interprets this as JFM disliking him. We haven’t seen anything to suggest that JFM actually dislikes JC, he always treats him quite gently, actually. But JC is already at the conclusion that JFM dislikes him, and twists events to suit this - if his dad scolds him for misbehaving, it’s because he dislikes him. This pattern repeats after the Xuanwu Cave arc too.

This is because Madam Yu has ingrained into him the idea that JFM dislikes him, because he’s her son. This has nothing to do with WWX - because both her and JC already believe that JFM dislikes JC prior to WWX’s arrival - she only sees him as additional fuel to use.

The only other person who mentions JFM supposedly treating WWX better than JC is JZX. I’m sure it's a coincidence that he’s the son of YZY’s best friend.

‘“Doesn’t he treat you better than treating his own child or something?”’

Note the ‘or something’, - JZX doesn’t seem to know this with certainty - he’s repeating what others have said, despite having visited Lotus Pier several times (as stated in ch.69), JZX hasn’t seen evidence for himself that JFM prefers WWX.

‘“Maybe I should’ve let you hit him, while I stand aside and watch. This way, Uncle Jiang might not need to come. Oh well, I really couldn’t hold back!”’

We know that WWX doesn’t see JFM as favouring him - so what does he mean by this? Well, LQR has had it out for WWX from the moment they met, and has already sent a letter to JFM complaining of his behaviour - at this point WWX doesn’t know that this results in them breaking the JZX/JYL engagement either, so he’s probably purely thinking that LQR summoned JFM to CR to discuss WWX’s repeated offenses. JC hasn’t done anything to invoke LQR’s ire (or rather, he’s gotten away with everything he has done), so WWX thinks that if JC fought JZX, it would not have been treated so seriously, compared to WWX, who has repeatedly misbehaved.

Contrary to fanon interpretation, WWX is not oblivious to other people’s feelings, he’s very empathetic, and additionally understands JC very well. He doesn’t see how JC is feeling here, because JC’s feelings are just so illogical...

‘Although it was only Wei WuXian’s casual words, he held mixed feelings, because he knew that this wasn’t a lie.

Jiang FengMian had never hurried to another sect in one day for anything related to him, no matter if the issue was good or bad, large or small.

Never.’

Once again, JC’s at the conclusion that JFM dislikes him, he twists events to support this. He’s looking at this scenario very strangely - JFM didn’t rush to CR because he likes WWX, he was called there by LQR, to discuss JYL’s engagement with JZX. Secondly, we’re never given any examples of scenarios where JC does anything to warrant JFM rushing over. As far as we know, they never even stay with other sects. Knowing JC’s personality, his dislike of doing anything to rock the boat, it’s extremely unlikely that he’s ever done anything to warrant JFM rushing over like this. Moreover, it’s a bizarre thing to be jealous of, WWX is in trouble, he’s not on the receiving end of positive attention from JFM.

JC’s flawed reasoning is once again illustrated after the Xuanwu Cave arc...

‘Jiang Cheng’s expression was complicated after he had finished listening.’

This is Jiang Cheng’s reaction after WWX credits LWJ with killing the tortoise of slaughter - this is before JFM congratulates him. Before JFM says anything, JC is purely resentful about WWX having done something heroic, more so, resentful that WWX is willingly to let LWJ take most of the credit - he’s annoyed about this, most likely feeling that WWX is rubbing in his face that he doesn’t need the recognition that JC so desperately craves.

‘Jiang FengMian nodded and said, “You did well.”

Killing a giant 400-year-old beast at only 17 was way beyond what one would call ‘doing well.’’

JFM knows about JC’s… issues, he knows how he’ll react to WWX’s receiving recognition, he likely purposefully downplays his praise to avoid upsetting him. (Who’s really being favouritised? Lol)

But, even to this, JC reacts badly, he lashes out at WWX, once more interpreting him in the worst possible way.

‘Jiang Cheng hissed, “Too fucking bad, then. You shouldn’t have been so damn stubborn and you shouldn’t have cared so damn much about such a trivial thing. If you’d never moved in the first place –”’

JC’s response is to basically tell him the entire incident was his fault. Which is objectively not true - WWX only gets involved in the conflict after it has already started, and then he acts deliberately to try to end it, rather than impulsively fighting. He also starts to say that WWX should have left their allies - LWJ and JZX - to die. This is where JFM cuts him off, and tells him it’s not appropriate to say such things - he’s not scolding him harshly, JC is not being unfairly treated here, he’s done wrong, and JFM is trying to teach him why, you know, parenting. But JC, and YZY, take this to mean JFM dislikes JC.

JFM tries to teach JC about the Jiang sect’s motto once more - this is of course, not just about the motto, but about the values that JFM wants to instill in him, as a parent.

This is where Madam Yu arrives.

“Yes, he doesn’t understand, but what does it matter, as long as Wei Ying understands?!”

Of course, what she says is nonsensical, it does matter to JFM that JC understands the motto, that’s why he’s trying to teach him. If he did not care, he would have given in already.

This is further supported...

‘Jiang Cheng’s appearance and temperament all resembled his mother’s. Jiang FengMian guided him from childhood, but no matter how much he tried, he still couldn’t change his son’s nature. As such, it always seemed like he disliked his son.’

JFM has never been dismissive of JC just because he’s YZY’s son, he’s always tried to teach him, but JC always had his mother’s nature - YZY’s nature being harsh, standoffish, foul tempered, with no care for others - Note that is says it ‘seems’ like he dislikes his son, solely because he’s trying to teach him to be a better person. He has good reason for doing so - as a kid, JC never had friends, he doesn’t seem to as an adult either, he only has Jin Ling, whom he pushes away with his foul temper. JFM was just trying to raise JC to being an even-tempered person, capable of functioning in society, which is kind of what parents are supposed to do. But once more, this is taken as dislike.

Note that during JC’s outburst, every single thing JC claims about what JFM thinks of him, he’s parroting what YZY has said, none of these points have any actual evidence.

The next point to consider is how JC blames WWX for the fall of LP, despite it objectively not being his fault - JC knows this too.

‘In his heart, Jiang Cheng knew clearly that back in the cave of the Xuanwu of Slaughter at Dusk-Creek Mountain, even if Wei WuXian hadn’t saved Lan WangJi, the Wen Sect would have found some reason to come over sooner or later’

Even if WWX’s actions did prompt the Wens to act sooner than they otherwise might have - coming sooner or later would have made no difference at all because YZY outright stated she had no intention of preparing for an attack, even after WWX suggests they should, and JFM was still going to the Wens asking for their swords back - they were still uselessly trying to suck up to the Wens, thinking it would save them.

Despite knowing deep down that WWX was not to blame - he still uses it to fuel his resentment of WWX, because the resentment was there from the beginning, the only uncertainty is the means he uses to justify it.

During the ancestral hall confrontation - he uses this excuse again.

‘Jiang Cheng responded contemptuously, “You really are forgetful. What’s called a shameful person? Let me remind you. Just because you decided to be a hero and save this Second Young Master Lan, the entire Lotus Pier including my father and mother was buried. If this wasn’t enough, after the first time, you still want a second time, even wanting to save Wen-dogs and implicating my sister and her husband, how noble of you. Even nobler, you are so magnanimous to bring these two to Lotus Pier. Allowing the Wen-dog to stand at the front of my gates and letting Second Young Master Lan offer joss sticks, purely trying to antagonize me.’

Obviously, WWX did none of these things to antagonise JC, in fact he was going through a complex emotional journey of realising that he has feelings for LWJ, and that LWJ probably has feelings for him too, he doesn’t go to the ancestral shrine to mess around - he’s ‘introducing’ LWJ to JFM, YZY, and JYL, because he’s thinking about marrying him.

The problem is, JC never really sees WWX as a person, WWX has always been more of a concept - someone to compare himself to, the reason his father doesn’t like him, the reason his mother uses to berate him. It doesn’t occur to JC that WWX is a person outside of what he is to JC, and he is therefore incapable of empathising with what WWX might be feeling right now, instead the only possible conclusion is that he’s antagonising JC.

He follows the same line of thinking when WWX defects with the Wens. JC knows what he and WWX owe them, in fact JC owes them, far, far more than what WWX does - it was his parents whose bodies Wen Ning retrieved, and it was him who WN had to rescue from LP. But JC thinks, he can get away with not paying this debt, so why should he? JC is selfish, he doesn’t understand why WWX would want to help others when he doesn’t have to, so JC concludes, this is WWX showing off, ‘playing the hero’.

Because from the moment they met, JC has never tried to know WWX for who he is, whatever WWX does, JC interprets in a negative light - when WWX tries to get LWJ’s attention, (despite it being painstakingly obvious that WWX has a crush on him) JC concludes that WWX is messing around foolishly, without reason (parroting the untrue things YZY says about WWX always seeking trouble). When WWX wants to help people, he’s playing the hero, one upping JC. JC only ever thinks of WWX in relation to himself - when WWX disappears for three months, JC’s immediate complaint is that WWX kept him waiting, that he’s put JC out by making him search for him. You could argue that JC was just worried about WWX, and not able to express it - and on some level that’s true. But there’s a very intentional contrast between how LWJ and JC react to WWX’s return - LWJ is worried about WWX, about how his cultivation method is affecting him, moreover, WWX is very clearly not himself. JC, however, does not care for that - he only sees WWX, and modao, as a tool for killing Wens.

It takes almost nothing for JGS to manipulate JC into turning against WWX in ch.73 - he readily believes every negative thing JGS says about WWX, despite being called out directly for lying by LWJ. JGS talks as if he is a servant who has forgotten his place, unlike JYL, JC does not defend him. He refuses to speak up for him - he claims that no one will - yet LWJ and MianMian did. JC didn’t turn on WWX because it was impossible for him to speak up - he was living proof that WQ and WN did not support the Wen sect in the war, he drops him the moment he can because he’s resented him from the beginning.

Another interesting tidbit about JC just fundamentally not understanding who WWX is as a person, is that he only blames LWJ for the Xuanwu Cave incident - not JZX, despite him behaving no differently to how LWJ does. This is probably because he realises WWX’s fixation on LWJ, and supposes that this is the reason that WWX got involved in the conflict. But of course, WWX would have done something whether it was solely JZX, or just a random person.

Taking all this into account, it seems almost inevitable that WWX and JC would fall out eventually, because JC was, from the start, looking for reasons to dislike WWX, he turns against him at the first opportunity he got. For the ‘Yunmeng bros’ to have a healthy relationship, JC would simply have to fix his entire personality.

JC is unable to see WWX as a person, right up until the very end of the novel - when he recalls how he impulsively put himself at risk in order to save WWX. Finally, for the first time, JC is able to understand why WWX stood up for others in Xuanwu Cave, why he helped the Wens, because JC did the same thing, put himself on the line for WWX, probably the only time JC has ever acted so selflessly. And this is why he lets him go, he lets go of the things he blamed WWX for. For the first time, he is able to empathise with WWX, he understands that WWX was never ‘playing the hero’, seeking praise or recognition, he understands that WWX helps people purely because he feels in the moment that it’s the right thing to do. This is what enables him to finally let go of WWX.

I’m always a bit baffled when people claim mxtx never gave JC a happy ending, because this is his happy ending - him being able to realise that WWX never wronged him - when he finally lets go of this, he can live freely.

#mdzs #jc wank #mdzs meta #jiang cheng

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angstymdzsthoughts · 3 years

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Crack Idea lol

Badly worded wish: “why can’t any of the misfortune hitting me go to those who deserve it?” Wei Ying says as he pulls a splinter out of his thumb and wipes the blood on an experimental defecting talisman.

It flowed when he wasn’t looking.

The next day he falls headfirst into a pile of rocks. Not a scratch … weird? The week after he breaks an arm fighting off a Yao- only his arm is fine ..? What??

Lan Zhan visits. He advises that Wei Ying lay low for a while. It seems several high profile members of the cultivation world have been cursed and they suspect Wei Ying. The same injuries keep appearing randomly on people. JGS, JGY, ‘Leader Yao’, some rando starting a new sect in Gusu, prisoners, ect.

Wei Ying blinks for a moment. “Oooh. Well that’s a shame. If only I could help.” He kicks a table to stub his toe. Didn’t hurt. Can’t say the same for the rest of the bad apples.

(Now it’s an injury a day until he gets bored of it. He never gets bored of it.)

Oh my god I love that. I'm picturing him getting confronted by Jin Zixun on his way to meet Jin Ling and just... spreading his arms and saying 'Go ahead! Hit me with as many arrows as you shitty archers can! It wont bother me at all!'

Oh, but someone is gonna have a Really Bad Day when WWX is destroying the seal...

Would this make Wei Wuxian functionally immortal?

#reply #not angst #wei wuxian #mdzs

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plan-d-to-i · 2 years

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do you think that lwj and wwx ever feel a bit conflicted about gusu considering the seige and the whole thing with the discipline whip? i've seen some posts where apparently ppl aren't happy that wwx stays at gusu bc "their rules..lotus pier is his home yadayada"

Lol those people are in lala land from too many of their own fanfics that they're now confusing canon with.

There's no evidence in canon that either LWJ or WWX feel conflicted about those things when they come back to the Cloud Recesses. LWJ fought the elders knowing the consequences. He accepted them for himself. He still clearly believes in the Lan Clan, their rules and their teachings. Although the Lan Clan took part in the siege the story takes the time to say that they and the Nie Clan were not the primary forces/the siege could have gone on without them. The Lan Clan accepts WWX at the family banquet. He's teaching the disciples. He's rifling through their treasure pavilion pulling out incense burners. He's got a jade token to come and go as he pleases and take out whatever money he wants. He's good.

Also a scene I love is how the young woman cultivator WWX met when he first came back to life, who Little Apple liked sm, and who was stuck in one of Jin Ling's nets joined the Lan Clan at the end!

The flushing young woman was still staring blankly at Wei Wuxian, not knowing what to say. Wei Wuxian narrowed his eyes, finding her vaguely familiar. After a moment, he suddenly recalled, wasn’t that round-faced young woman precisely the one he had encountered on the road just after he had just left the Mo household and again at Dafan mountain?Even if that woman was a complete stranger, he would still have wanted to strike a friendly conversation. Now even more so after he recognised her as that gentle young woman from before. At once, he went to her waving a hand and called out, “Oh, it’s you!”

He had evidently made a deep impression on her, whether or not his face was washed clean. Shyly fiddling with the basket in her hands, she let out in a muffled voice, “It’s me…”

...

The carrots in the basket were freshly-picked, Wei Wuxian took one bite himself before handing them over to the rabbits. He inquired, “Are you the one always coming to feed these rabbits?”

The young woman answered, “No… I’ve only started coming here recently to feed them… When Hanguang-Jun is there, he is the one taking care of them. When he is not there, it’s young master Lan Sizhui and the others who look after them. If they are not there either, then it’s us who come to lend a hand…”

Wei Wuxian thought to himself, “How come Lan Zhan is feeding rabbits? How old was he when he started raising them? Does he come holding a little basket like this?”

Putting these overly cute images away from his mind, Wei Wuxian had another question, “You’re now a disciple from the Gusu Lan Sect?”

The young woman shyly answered, “Mmh.”

Wei Wuxian, “The Gusu Lan Sect is pretty good. When did you join?”

Stroking the white fur of a rabbit, she replied, “Not long after the events of Dafan moutain…” (114)

Idk I think this is such a cute detail! Her behavior set her apart from her other companions in a positive way, so it's interesting, and telling that she should end up in the Lan Clan.

While Wei Wuxian passed the time a hundred different ways, a group of people trekked in his direction along the crisscrossing paths in the distance.

They wore bamboo baskets on their backs, linen shirts, and straw shoes; they had the rustic, earthy appearance of rural villagers from head to toe . Among them was an almost delicate and pretty young woman with a round face, who had perhaps walked under the harsh sun for too long and wanted to sit in the shade and drink some water. But when she saw the donkey tied to the tree, braying and stomping discontently, and the wild-haired lunatic with red and white pigment smeared all over his face sitting next to it, she became frightened and wouldn’t approach.

Wei Wuxian had always considered himself protective and caring of women, so seeing her state, he moved to create space for her and went to bother the donkey. Only once the travellers saw he was harmless did they relax and come near. Each and every one of their faces were bright red and drenched in sweat, some fanning themselves and some fetching themselves water. The young woman sat by the well, and, seemingly knowing Wei Wuxian had intentionally made room for her, gave him a tiny smile. (6)

Before they left, the round-faced young woman took a half-green, half-red apple from the basket on her back and passed it to Wei Wuxian. “This is for you.” (6)

and then

The members of the family looked quite pathetic as they dropped down. Without a word, they bolted. The round-faced young woman looked as though she wanted to thank him, but was yanked away by one of her seniors for fear that this Young Master Jin might come to bear a more bitter grudge against them if they spoke too much. (7)

#mdzs #answers #Lan Wangji #Wei Wuxian #Lan Clan

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farmerlan · 4 years

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A guide to commonly used honorifics in 魔道祖师/The Untamed

OK - so, I’ve actually seen some confusion floating around on specific honorifics commonly used in 魔道祖师 and I figured I will put a post up to address some of this - especially the situations when they get used. Hopefully it’ll be helpful for fic writers or whoever else out there that’s getting turned around by the various translations.

As with most of Chinese vernacular, there’s a TON of similar, but different situations in which it may be permissible to use certain titles/honorifics, so bear in mind this is not an exhaustive guide. Also, I don’t have a PhD in Chinese honorifics or anything, I’m just a Chinese person that watches/reads a fair amount of historical dramas. So if I missed anything/if there was anything that was kind of unclear in the novel or drama, feel free to let me know!

公子 / gongzi/ master

Let’s start with the hardest so I can get this out of the way. You will see this translated in a variety of different ways - master, young master, sir...and they are all correct! Congratulations, you’ve hit the jackpot - depending on the situation, gongzi can be a whole hodgepodge of things.

Master: The most commonly used version in MDZS. This is a separate meaning of master from some of the honorifics discussed below - it is specifically used to address either:

Your literal master if you are a servant in the household

A somebody from a distinguished household in a polite way

General honorific: Gongzi can also be used between strangers/acquaintances as a respectful term. Gongzi is, in some ways, an indicator of respect of the other person’s status. So oftentimes you’ll find two young masters from different sects referring to each other as gongzi politely, but you wouldn’t find two beggars on the street calling each other that. and it’s usually used to address someone younger or a similar age as you. If you‘re talking to someone who is clearly your senior, use 前辈 or 先生.

Because it has the connotation of youth and aristocracy associated with it, oftentimes innkeepers/sellers may use gongzi to address male customers (particularly youthful men) because it’s a bit more flattering. Kind of like how the modern day shopkeeper calls you ‘美女’ (beauty) or even ‘亲爱的’（my dear - IDK when this started becoming a thing but if you do any online shopping on Taobao you know what I’m talking about) in China. They don’t actually think you’re beautiful/feel affection for you, it’s just a way of addressing the customer to make you feel good about yourself HA. It’s nice to be called gongzi even if you’re not actually a noble.

There’s variants of this - 小公子/ xiaogongzi is typically young master, although I think some translations just directly use the young master for gongzi. It can also mean the younger master if there is an older sibling in question here (e.g. Wen Chao was referred to as 温小公子 as he was the younger son), although you can also use 二公子（second master), as many do when referring to Lan Wangji. It sounds a little less juvenile.

This term is used for guys - I would say the female equivalent could be 千金/ qianjin or 小姐 /xiaojie.

宗主 / zongzhu/ sect leader

This can only refer to the sect leader - it is a title, and it is passed down. There is typically only one sect leader at any one time, and his eldest male heir will be the successive leader of the sect. I’m going to take this chance to clear up some misconceptions:

Unless Lan Xichen bears no male heirs before his death, Lan Wangji will not succeed him. Lan Sizhui, given that he is not a Lan by birth, will likely never be the Lan sect leader. Yes yes, we all know he’s the adoptive son, but adoptive means literally nothing in the progenical world of Chinese history. Plus, he’s not even the adoptive son of Lan Xichen, so he is a long, long way down from ever being sect leader unless he forms his own, which he would likely never because that’s kind of like betraying your family.

On that same topic, Nie Huaisang succeeded Nie Mingjue because Nie Mingjue died without an heir and Nie Huaisang was the closest blood relative.

For the Jin sect, the succession would have been Jin Guangshan -> Jin Zixuan -> Jin Ling. (y’all I wrote here that it was Jin Zixun first in line but I totally blanked that he was actually a cousin and NOT the son of JGS so ignore that LOL) Since Jin Zixuan died, it became Jin Guangyao - Jin Ling is next in line as he is of the next generation and too young at that time to rule. Honestly, if Jin Ling was older at the time of Jin Zixuan’s death and if this was a Chinese historical palace drama, there would probably be some serious internal political intrigue going on as Jin Guangyao’s claim over the seat would arguably be weaker than Jin Ling’s since he is illegitimate.

For the Jiang sect, Jiang Cheng is the heir even though Jiang Yanli is older because he is male. The question of who will inherit his seat (a very valid question given his luck with dating, although I am sure someone somewhere will eventually warm the prickly cockles of his heart) remains open. IMO there is a less than zero chance that Jin Ling succeeds him unless Jiang Cheng specifically demands for it, but he likely wouldn’t because he is all about decorum and also it would put Jin Ling in an incredibly difficult situation, which is the last thing he would want for his nephew. If he doesn’t end up producing heirs, the seat will likely go to whomever he names as successor, even if non-blood related - maybe the current head disciple.

With that said, although there were generally established rules for succession, actual Chinese history (like all of history) often played out very differently (e.g. Emperor Kangxi stripped crown prince Yinreng of his right to succeed and appointed Yinzhen (Yongzheng), who was the fourth surviving prince, as his successor) so really, even if you were to base sect succession off imperial succession traditions, you could still make the argument that anything goes as long as you have the right people in your corner. HA.

老祖/ laozu/ grandmaster/forefather

I mean, I think grandmaster is probably a fair translation of laozu, which, to be honest, is a harder honorific to translate. It’s definitely influenced by Taoism and not very common at all, but it’s likely derived from Hongjun Laozu (鸿钧老祖), who was a deity and teacher. It does NOT only stand for a senior teacher/master however, because 祖 itself has ancestral connotations, so I think I would personally translate this as forefather. IMO, it’s really only fair to use this on Wei Wuxian and/or originators of a certain branch of study in the MDZS universe - I would consider laozu as the term of respect afforded to people who were pioneers in their fields/sects.

In that sense, Lan Qiren is NOT the grandmaster of the Lan sect. He is an elder - a very respected elder that was basically interim sect leader, but in terms of official title, technically, Lan Xichen could pull rank on him, but he likely wouldn’t unless pressed to because he is also Lan Xichen’s elder.

前辈 / qianbei/ senior/elder

This is kind of an in-between term to politely refer to someone who is your senior, but with whom you really have no formal affiliation with. Unlike 先生, it’s also unisex. A related term is 长辈 /zhangbei, but that is used for people whom you have familial/closer ties with - like an uncle, or someone within your own sect.

师父/师尊/ shifu/shizun / master

Your teacher/master, but not in the servant-master context. Someone who mentors you for years - in the xianxia/wuxia culture, this is a pretty special term because most disciples will only ever belong to one sect and will only ever have one master, and everyone else is a qianbei. The disciple has to ‘拜师’ (to formally request this relationship) and the master also has to ‘收徒’ (to formally accept disciples). So a lot of people went to Yiling in an attempt to 拜师, but Wei Wuxian never did 收徒.

In the wuxia/xianxia context, shifu is technically unisex even though 父 in itself is a male-centric term, although female masters might be more commonly referred to by the gender-neutral shizun instead.

Now that I think about it, shifu doesn’t actually appear in MDZS. Lan Wangji calls Lan Qiren 叔父 /shufu, which is completely different. It means uncle (father’s younger brother, to be exact lol), since that is their relationship.

老头/ laotou/ old man

Wei Wuxian uses this to address Lan Qiren behind his back. It literally just means old man, haha. It’s informal but not a term you would use to refer to someone who is close to you/whom you like, but not exactly a term that is insulting or derogatory, although in Lan Qiren’s case, it is irreverent because it is ill-fitting for the relationship that Wei Wuxian and Lan Qiren have. Meant to be used on men, usually for women it would be 老婆婆/ laopopo (NOT THE SAME as 老婆/ laopo, which means wife. Welcome to the weird wonderful world of the Chinese language!)

师弟/哥/兄/姐/妹/ shi di/ge/xiong/jie/mei/ younger brother/ older brother/ another variant of older brother/ older sister/ younger sister

NOT TO BE USED FOR YOUR ACTUAL FAMILY. This is in the context of the sect only. Your fellow disciples, but with varying levels of seniority. Familial honorifics are a whole different thing.

In the context of the sect, who you call your shidi/ge etc. is usually NOT based on age - it is based on someone’s seniority within the sect. If you have been in the sect/under your master’s tutelage for longer, you are the senior, even if you are younger in age.

With that, I think the novel states that both Wei Wuxian and Jiang Cheng are similar in age, so it is actually incredibly hard to determine if the author deliberately went against this convention and Wei Wuxian calls Jiang Cheng shidi because he is genuinely younger than Wei Wuxian, or if it is simply because Wei Wuxian is the head disciple of the sect (and therefore, technically, everyone is his shidi). I actually think it might be the former because he refers to Jiang Yanli as shijie, although now that I think about it, it might be the latter...as a reflection of the level of admiration Wei Wuxian has for Jiang Yanli WOAH.

(Fun fact: there’s a scene in the novel in Yi city where Wei Wuxian was silently weirded out that Xiao Xingchen referred to him as ‘qianbei’ - because Xiao Xingchen is his mother’s shidi, which makes him Wei Wuxian’s senior, but then he quickly realizes it’s because he’s talking to Xue Yang and not Xiao Xingchen.)

先生 /xiansheng/ mister/sir/teacher

In present day, this is literally the most vanilla term you can use to politely address a guy. Can be a stranger, or an acquaintance you want to politely address. Usually older than you, although if you’re both similar in age and you’re not really familiar with each other, you might still use it just to err on the side of caution. In xianxia/ancient China, this is usually used more like ‘teacher/sir’ to address an elder. It’s more scholastic in its implication and less generic than qianbei.

In the Lan sect, by crowd definition, 先生 refers to Lan Qiren unless otherwise stated, which makes sense and shows the amount of respect he is afforded in the sect.

夫人 / furen/ wife/madam

A term of respect for typically older women, or can also be used to refer to one’s wife.

Lastly, let me just add that this is just something that’s meant to be helpful for people as they work through the series - at the end of the day, it’s all fictional/xianxia itself as a genre is fantasy so if you need to subvert any one of the generally held succession traditions or whatnot in order to make your fic work, go!!! Do it!!!

#xianxia #honorifics #chinese #mo dao zu shi #mdzs #the untamed #cql #魔道祖师 #lan wangji #wei wuxian #guides #meta

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llycaons · 2 years

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the untamed of course <3

I do love talking about them :)

blorbo (favorite character, character I think about the most): ummm fave character I think about the most is wei wuxian because he just has more going on to think about. statistically speaking

scrunkly (my “baby”, character that gives me cuteness aggression, character that is So Shaped): little apple 😭 this is actually specific to her novel characterization because she's so fucking funny in the novel she has so much personality I love her. also all the characters we see as little kids in flashbacks are very cute. baby lwj lives in my heart. ALSO JIN LING. BIG scrunkly energy

scrimblo bimblo (underrated/underappreciated fave): A-QING!! absolutely wonderful character. I am so mad her story ended that way she deserved the world. and lan qiren <3 I love old men. also mianmian's husband and wei changze. sorry for mentioning men in a series that has like five women total but I just think they have got to be cool dudes based on who their wives are

glup shitto (obscure fave, character that can appear in the background for 0.2 seconds and I won’t shut up about it for a week): the sexy woman at the second seige of the burial mounds with dirt on her face to indicate she's evil. EDIT: MO XUANYU IS EVERYTHING TO ME

poor little meow meow (“problematic” unpopular, controversial, otherwise pathetic fave): probably jiang cheng lol but not in a way where I want to excuse his actions he's just the DEFINITION of pathetic. jgy is pathetic and controversional enough to also have meow meow potential except he's too vile. besides them not a lot of meow meowification going on here. characters usually own their shit. WAIT. JIN LING ALSO. PATHETIC TEENAGER RIGHTS

horse plinko (character I would torment for fun, for whatever reason): jin guanshan. definitely jin guanshan

eeby deeby (character I would send to superhell): xue yang and wen chao

thank you!!

#asks #I refuse to put wen ning in the meow meow category even though he may be considered a pathetic fave #because he's genuinely too cool and powerful. wen ning rocks #animals

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gusu-emilu · 3 years

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Ask me my Top 5 anything

Anon asked for Top 5 Post-Canon Junior Quartet Moments where they have to fight without using cultivation. Here’s my headcanon/scene rambling...

1. Lan Jingyi defeats a vengeful ghost just by roasting it for how it died

That’s it that’s the scene

2. Everybody forgot their talismans

Lan Sizhui is the Junior Quartet Mom who usually has a huge stash of extra talismans ready to go because the other three always forget to bring enough. But it turns out that just before they left for this nighthunt, Wei Wuxian secretly borrowed all of Sizhui’s talismans to “experiment” on them and return new versions as a present later.

So now the Junior Quartet is running around in utter chaos yelling for Wen Ning because nobody has talismans

3. Ouyang Zizhen learned how to wrestle from a poem

Listen, if there’s one way to motivate this boy, it’s with a very long ballad about two lovers who went on epic journey together and had to wrestle a band of actually-sympathetic-but-still-wrong criminals while simultaneously working through their relationship issues and tearing up about their beautiful memories together and confessing their undying love to each other. The narrative not only detailed every single line of their heart-rending dialogue, but also every blow in the fight, and Ouyang Zizhen is excellent at memorizing things when he wants to be. (Bonus points if he got the poem from Nie Huaisang)

4. Lan Sizhui is surprisingly good at hand-to-hand combat

Technically, Lan Sizhui is a Wen, so he wasn’t born with the formidable upper body strength of the Lans. While training with the Lans, he couldn’t rely on sheer power like the others and had to develop clever strategies (fake-outs, unorthodox moves, tricking opponents into thinking he’s unintimidating, etc). Sizhui doesn’t actually take the offensive very often in combat, and instead draws his opponent into making mistakes.

In this way, Sizhui takes after Uncle Wei Wuxian for his inventiveness and Uncle Wen Ning for the fighting skills behind his cinnamon-roll veneer. But of course, Sizhui would rather not fight someone for real! Even in a friendly sparring match, he’d try his best not to actually hurt his opponent, and after the match is over he’d apologize profusely and heal any injuries they did get. Still, I think Sizhui deserves the chance to have a fun sparring match with his friends once in a while. Let’s just say that Jin Ling and Ouyang Zizhen were very startled the first time they got utterly defeated by Sizhui! Meanwhile Jingyi already knew what the outcome would be and was laughing the entire time.

(Little post-script: Yes, hand-to-hand combat is messy and rather un-Lan-like but let’s just say the Lan disciples do train in it. After all, Lan Wangji does an awful lot of arm-grabbing and kicking during his fight scenes. Perhaps another Uncle that Sizhui takes after?)

5. A nighthunt in which Jin Ling should not have gone swimming

The juniors are on the bank of a river, taking a break after searching for hours and finding nothing to hunt. Suddenly there’s a giant splash in the river!

None of the juniors can figure out what it was. Since Jin Ling always brags about how great he is at swimming (his mom was from the Jiang Clan, home of the best swimmers), Ouyang Zizhen dares him to go into the river and find out what made the splash. Well, Jin Ling’s over-pompousness is coming back to bite him because he never actually practiced swimming, he just knows he’s good at it...thinks he’s good at it...of course he’s good at everything...maybe...

But he can’t back down now! He jumps into the river and swims out to the site of the splash no problem. He dives under, closes his hands around a large carp (that’s all it was? haha Ouyang Zizhen was scared of the splash for nothing), and brings the fish to the surface to show off to the others. That wasn’t so hard! He really is the best swimmer!

Then the carp grows into a giant water dragon.

Jin Ling has no sword, no talismans, no nothing because he left them all on the shore to go swimming!

Okay, I cheated, this isn’t actually about Jin Ling fighting without using cultivation because Uncle Jiang appears out of nowhere, slays the dragon, and yells in fury at Jin Ling while trying (and failing) not to reveal how melodramatically emotional he was about Jin Ling possibly getting hurt

~Thanks for the ask! Nonny I hope this is what you meant lol. Someone send me more asks to get carried away with, this is fun!

#lan sizhui #lan jingyi #ouyang zizhen #jin ling #mdzs #cql #the untamed #junior quartet #emilu talks #ask game #emilu creations

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i-ship-therefore-i-am · 3 years

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So today I am thinking about episode 34 and that exchange between Jiang Cheng and Wei Wuxian. Like, I don’t want to villainize JC or anything, because wow, yes, he’s dealing with a lot at this moment, even if, as usual, he isn’t dealing with it well. WWX hasn’t exactly made a graceful re-entrance into his life. And everything about WWX seems to provoke him, Yanli’s name from his lips, the thoughtless thing he said to Jin Ling, the fact that it appears like he picked up his dangerous tricks the moment he was alive again by summoning Wen Ning to attack people. I think it also deeply needles JC that Lan Zhan is at WWX’s side again, both that LZ is the one protecting him, but also the feeling perhaps that WWX chose to go to him instead of JC after he is resurrected. Even if JC is like “i would see you die a thousand times,” I think we know that in JC speak that is “why didn't you come to Lotus Pier, your home, as soon as you revived?” So instead he is holding on to his anger and grief, which as far as he knows at this point, are completely justified.

So, yes, he goes for the petty cheap shots. Using the dog to terrify WWX on purpose, dragging him for saying Yanli’s name, for saying thoughtless stuff to Jin Ling. For immediately using the puppet that killed Zixuan. Like, I get it.

What’s interesting for me (of course), is when Jiang Cheng takes a swipe at Lan Zhan. Mostly because clearly JC is like ‘eff that guy’ and probably never resists a chance to be pissed off by Lan Zhan’s general existence. For oh so many complicated reasons. But I also feel like he’s unknowingly (I think?) hit on a really, really nasty spot for WWX. Like, almost everything JC is saying (Lan Zhan’s reputation is spotless, everyone admires him, he could never tolerate someone like WWX) is probably pretty much pulled straight from WWX’s head, bitterly and painfully. Because WWX has thought all of that, over and over again, mostly from the moment he came back from the Burial Mounds the first time until his death. But that echo is there, and we know pretty much up until The Scene on Koi Tower steps that WWX still kind of believes this and expects Lan Zhan to just leave at some point. (And probably always does during his weak moments.) It’s a direct hit, and you can see it on WWX’s face. Even the dog is temporarily forgotten as he turns to look at JC.

“However, he might not be doing this to protect you.”

Oh, oh, oh. Jiang Cheng! Damn. You know that is going to wiggle into WWX’s brain if it weren’t there already. And just fester.

But then we have the turn, and Jiang Cheng takes it one step too far and tries to infer that Lan Zhan is somehow conspiring or doing something underhanded. “Maybe he had a deal with the guy who saved you.” Which, to be honest, I am not entirely sure what JC is insinuating here? That Lan Zhan wanted WWX saved and was part of that? That Lan Zhan wanted him saved just so he could be punished again? Like...I’m not really sure. But it doesn’t really matter (though I am definitely going to ruminate more) because whatever he’s implying, he’s pretty much slandering Lan Zhan, saying that he could ever be part of some underhanded conspiracy like that.

And, boy, do I love that WWX mostly can take slander against himself with an arrogant smile or by withdrawing into himself (minus losing his mind at Zixun during the hunt, but that was more about Yanli’s reputation, I think). But here, WWX’s been mostly passive to JC’s abuse of him, barely tries to defend himself, only once trying to get JC to think about the meaning of Wen Ning being around still. But when JC goes for Lan Zhan, and despite any doubts rattling around in WWX’s head, he instantly strikes back out. Like, hell, no, say what you like about me, but keep Lan Zhan’s reputation and character out of your dirty mouth. Lol. Sorry, I’m just gone for that dynamic.

In the end, I suppose, this scene just shows us how these two know how to hurt each other so well. Though it’s interesting that JC does it on purpose, striking out over and over again because that is how he is. But not WWX, he is still, even after all this, carefully solicitous of JC’s feelings as best he can be, even as he still bumbles into sore spot after sore spot, sometimes just by existing, it must feel to him.

Yeah, these two and this scene give me a lot of feelings.

#the untamed #episode 34 #Jiang Cheng #Wei Wuxian #brothers #Lan Zhan #wangxian

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