#why would they question his motive he was obviously just out for a throne

[worstloki]

Loki probably had to deal with Frigga's 'subtle' attempts to get him to apologise and reintegrate into the family through the entire jail time :/

#not that I think Frigga showed up often I feel like she ignored him like 7 months and then started showing up #like she was suddenly sooo concerned #started asking why he wasn't eating well #getting furniture brought in #give him shoes and some different clothes (that he wouldn't end up wearing) #i feel like she would deliberately miss the point that he'd rather actually be in the cell than not point out the hypocrisy #because either what he did was fine without excuses the way Odin goes around (and Thor before did) #or they should all deserve punishment too #Frigga like oh your father and your brother and that's sad too bc all she does is ignore the entire issue from the last time he was 'alive' #to Frigga the last time Loki was around he had the whole found out he was adopted breakdown and dropped himself into space #like wow everyone in the family made the decision to ignore that #why would they question his motive he was obviously just out for a throne #if that's the family waiting outside the prison might as well stay in #smh

[blluespirit]

i wish that there was more time between the day of black sun and sozin's comet bc zuko's official desertion from the fire nation would have the most insane ripple effects (and it would be nice to see the gaang interacting a bit more than we got but hey i'll take what i can get)

zuko's desertion would have been essentially impossible for the fire nation to bury since it was such a big deal that he returned at all. so i imagine the smear campaign against zuko would have been craaazy. i think it would have been interesting for the gaang to try and deal with that when navigating the FN. zuko would be very recognisable i think at this point, and it would have made staying hidden much harder. would they still have chosen ember island? maybe the kids didn't recognise zuko and azula during The Beach , but with the prince of the fire nation committing treason would there be more wanted posters? would there be more talk around the island? would zuko have to remain hidden while the rest go out and get food?

i wonder if zuko deserting and very meaningly committing his loyalty to the avatar influenced other soldiers in the FN to also desert? or would it have had the opposite effect and made people feel more patriotic since zuko was banished, returned under the guise of having killed the avatar, and then left when aang announced his survival to world during the failed invasion?

SPEAKING OF THAT!! the rumours around this would be INSANE. we know what really happened, but the public don't. did zuko and the avatar plan this so that there would be an inside man during the invasion and then zuko used that chaos to escape? what really happened in ba sing se if zuko didn't kill aang, but azula thought that he did? (again: we, the audience know the truth, but the general public don't). if zuko and the avatar where working together... for how long? was iroh involved somehow since he also disappeared the same time that zuko did? did iroh get captured on purpose to be close to zuko to possibly help him if needed? did zuko break iroh out of jail or did one of the guards or was iroh alone? you could spiral on this as just an average person in the avatar world for years like. if youtube existed in atla imagine the video essays breaking down all the conspiracies

its a kids show so obviously Nothing Bad Happened BUT in the Boiling Rock, zuko getting found out as not only an imposter (already, a very bad situation), a traitor (extremely bad), AND the traitorous (ex) prince of the fire nation (devastatingly terrible) would have been... incredibly dangerous for zuko. in zuko and iroh's original wanted poster, the official translation says “Permission is granted to kill them on sight” and this was before zuko has gone right ahead and committed Treason On Purpose. the warden is not going to be nice. when the warden visits zuko in his cell he literally tells him "If these criminals found out who you are, the traitor prince who let his nation down, why they'd tear you to shreds." the boiling rock would be hell trying to survive. it also puts a lot more weight on zuko refusing to leave sokka in their first escape attempt. also ozai obviously knew that he has his son was in prison bc he... broke in to the prison bc azula was there but then zuko manages to escape with sokka (another imposter) and suki and hakoda (POWs) and chit sang (a prisoner) and two of azula's trusted friends end up in prison for treason as well i just. that is literally insane for the average person to hear about. again, THE CONSPIRACIES!!

when zuko eventually does take the throne there's a lot of conjecture around what zuko did while he was banished and moreso, what he did the second time he left, this time voluntarily. i think zuko's loyalty would be questioned a lot; by other world leaders who are understandably wary about the fire nation and its motivations, but also by its own people - some who believe that zuko is a traitor to his country and is trying to sabotage it since he helped end the war.

idk these are all just me rambling but it would been so interesting to explore the implications of zuko leaving the fire nation and how that would have impacted the gaang and how they interacted with others in their travels. there are so many fic where zuko joins the gaang early, but neither myself with the aus that I have written, nor many that ive read have explored this very much or at all.

#this is basically a thought stream #zuko #sokka #aang #katara #toph #the gaang #book 3 #i think that like.... zuko leaving would have been crazy. it should be the talk of the town! #the gossip mill would have been on OVERDRIVE #it also makes it so hard bc no one knows what the truth actually is #one day in court as fire lord one of the foreign dignitaries is like ummm fire lord is it true that you systematically #robbed upper class earth kingdom citizens to help fund local militia groups to take back land occupied by the fire nation #and like zuko is just sitting there like WHAT #zuko: yes i did rob people. #the foreign dignitary: 👁️👄👁️ #avatar the last airbender #atla #the boiling rock #the day of black sun #the firebending masters

[daylander1000]

Will you watch season 2 of HotD or you've lost interest in the show? I wasn't thrilled with season 1, but I do like some characters and I'm curious to see if they'll do them any justice in the next season(s). I'm still trying to be optimistic (which is definitely against my nature 😁), although the latest leaks from Spain (which I desperately hope to be false) doesn't sound promising.

Idk it you read Fire & Blood, but that book is often overrated imho, almost all the characters there are painfully one-dimensional, shallow and bland, while the plot is full of illogical things (especially the Dance part) . So, as you can see, I'm not the biggest book fan, and I do believe that the show did some things better and gave a bit of depth and complexity to certain characters and fleshed them out. However, at the same time it seems to me that they didn't complete what they started, like, you see the potential of the characters and understand their motivations, but then out of the blue they do or say something totally nonsensical and OOC. Take Alicent at the end of episode 8. Rhaenyra says something nice to her and she suddenly forgives everything and forgets that's the same woman who wanted to "sharply question" Aemond after her son Luke maimed him over an insult (a fact, actually), the woman her husband always favoured at the expense of Alicent's own children and finally, the woman who is married to Daemon, the sociopath who hates Alicent and her children and who will kill anyone (and apparently with Rhaenyra and Viserys' blessing) without remorse if it benefits him and his side. I mean, the guy even had the gall to look annoyed during the prayer for Vaemond. Still, according to the show, Alicent somehow needs to "misunderstand" Viserys' last words to crown her own son, and not because it's probably the only way to keep her and her children alive and safe and because her son actually has the strongest claim to the throne according to Westerosi laws avd tradition. And don't get me started on the Velaryons who are collectively depicted as "Dae and Rhae fan club". Like, what is Corlys even thinking?! I won't ask about Baela and Rhaena because they obviously don't get to think and are just unconditionally supportive of Rhaenyra and the Strong boys. Rhaenys is contradictory and inconsistent. It's frustrating, really. Also, the fact that the narrative/the framing of the show heavily favours team black is also off-putting. Nevertheless, I'm still curious and just a bit hopeful that season 2 will balance these things a little. Maybe I'll just be terribly disappointed, but oh well. Sorry for the rant :D

Anyway, as a fan of your fic, I would like to know your opinion. Does the show deserve our optimism and what are your predictions regarding season 2?

S2 predictions? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Why would you ask me this? This is a show where someone in a professional HBO writers room said, "So what if a dragon just bursts up from the underground?" And the showrunner was like "Fuck yeah!"

I don't think they even thought to do a camera pan of the carnage. It's like they wanted to make Rhaenys look badass but did a Koolaid Man scene instead.

Tell me that this isn't Rhaenys

Predictions? This is not Leftovers where you could do a whole video essay on foreshadowing and subtext and hidden clues. This is a series where there's a horse running loose in a writer's room and nobody knows what it's going to write next.

This is the most bizarre thing I've ever seen.

My prediction for S2 is that during the time off at least one person realizes that they failed to make Aegon into Joff 2.0, that instead of having him be affably evil, he's onscreen affable and offscreen evil, and they'll try to double down on actually showing that he's evil and actually showing that he's worse than Daemon and Rhaenyra.

We've seen Daemon in brothels, grooming and marrying children, killing Rhea, killing innocent people and murdering lords at court, but we've only been told (by very minor characters) that Aegon is a baby-eating rape monster. It's all extremely "tacked-on."

I think Aegon's the biggest problem that they have to work on. Just getting at least this one character to make sense moving forward.

When Jahaerys is killed, I think they'll use that to really commit to making him the bad guy. Like he'll have to be killing a baby or raping someone or eating someone so that it's not Rhaenyra and Daemon killing a child but "Look at what this bad man was doing instead of protecting his son."

As far as predictions go, that's all I can see. If they only develop one character in S2, it needs to be him. Rhaenyra has Rockstar!Daemon, Rhaenys and Corlys on her side, so they'll have to upscale the green threat otherwise it's a bunch of grown people and veteran soldiers fighting two children who have no experience at anything because the oldest one is a 20-year-old frat boy and his brother is still a teenager. Aegon's going to have to really be villainous.

I feel like there's a reason all his nude scenes are with his mother, it's one of the few consistent things between them through the time skips and actor changes, and I feel like they're going to go fully 500% in that Commodus direction

and have him just be creepy and rapey with her in a "bad incest," how-the-turntables, "be careful what you wish for" way. Alicent's defining trait seems to be "perpetual victim," so I feel like they'll go this way and frame it as if she's getting what she deserves for slapping him around. Ten extra points if they have Rhaenyra or Rhaenys there on hand to be like "Is this your king?"

I don't see them doing anything with Rhaena besides sending her away, and I actively don't want to see Baela going out there getting her dragon killed and her face burnt off in defense of Rhaenyra.

I honestly try to not think about s2 of this.

I was a hardcore asoiaf fan but I didn't like Feast or Dance. I read Dunk and Egg, but he didn't finish that either. And when F&B came out, I got the audiobook and I listened to it for a few hours, probably less than five, and I couldn't concentrate because I kept thinking "Did this bitch seriously package his story notes as a novel for sale??? This is an insult to storytelling."

And I deleted it.

It's the quality for one thing. It's the lack of diversity, it's the author not finishing anything, it's the fandom being 20% fantasy fans, 80% trump rally...

Like, in just 10 episodes HotD has managed to give a voice to pro-rape feminists. Didn't even know that was a thing until I saw it on Twitter.

I saw some of the leaked pics of Helaena at the funeral on my feed, didn't have to scroll far to see people just casually r-wording Helaena and acting like having six fingers is a killing offense since eugenics rhetoric is apparently thriving in this fandom.

And on top of all that, the story doesn't even make sense.

I don't want to be like "dramaturgically speaking" but narrative coherence is a thing. Just from bing chat (yes, I'm using bing 😣):

Narrative coherence is the degree to which a story makes sense. Coherent stories are internally consistent, with sufficient detail, strong characters, and free of significant surprises. The ability to assess coherence is learned and improves with experience. Individuals assess a story's adherence by comparing it with similar stories. The ultimate test of narrative sense is whether the characters act reliably. If figures show continuity throughout their thoughts, motives, and actions, acceptance increases. However, characters behaving uncharacteristically destroy acceptance.

This show has curb-stomped narrative coherence.

Like, take that scene where they killed Vaemond. The way they write it, Rhaenyra has come back after 6 years of never visiting her father to drag him off his deathbed so he can support her in taking Driftmark, the seat of house Velaryon, away from Velaryon people to give it to her son by Harwin Strong. Vaemond is killed for telling the truth.

With different lighting and music, that's peak tyranny. That's some Mad King Aerys shit. In full view of all the lords at court. Every single person in that courtroom is aware that Luke is a bastard and they've just witnessed a lord like themselves get beheaded over it. This isn't Daemon killing commoners. He's killing the lords and ladies of Westeros.

But there's no fallout. Nothing. All the lords of Westeros cease to matter. It's just another Tuesday to them.

Hell, they go even further and frame the scene like Viserys is Old Theoden fighting off the curse of Wormtongue. Otto, Alicent and her goblin children all but shrivel and wither from the sunlight that Rhaenyra brings as Vaemond is cut down by noble Daemon. In that scene, Dark Sister might as well be Andúril, Flame of Old Valyria, sword of justice.

There are shows that are easy to watch that we say are "no brain cells required," but HotD is like, "No brain cells allowed. Switch them off or put them on silent so you don't disturb anyone."

I have no hope for season 2. I would never rec this to anyone or say that I think the writing will improve. The foundation is shit. You can't build a strong s2 on a shit s1 unless you're writing a procedural or an anthology where nothing that comes before matters.

You can't undo things like Alicent supporting Aegon as king because of a misunderstanding. There's a limit to how many things you can retcon without destroying all sense of continuity and they've already gone beyond that in s1.

They're past plot holes. They have whole parts of the world that are just void of all thought. Alicent and Rhaenys are characters who respawn and disintegrate from scene to scene as needed. Corlys is three lines of dialogue in a trenchcoat. Daemon Targaryen is somehow, impossibly, a less-developed Damon Salvatore.

No optimism here.

I'm that jaded ex fan who's like, "hotd is a barren wasteland, riddled with racists, ableists and toxic stans, and those are just the writers. The very fandom air you breathe is a poisonous fume. Not with ten-thousand Lindelof-level writers could they fix this shit."

But that being said, I have a really bad habit of watching shit TV.

I've seen Catwoman more than 5 times.

Waterworld, Jonah Hex, Elektra, Daredevil (Ben Affleck and Colin Farrell), Battlefield Earth, Supernova. At least 8 of the Fast movies. All the Transformers. Dracula 2000. All the old school classics of bad cinema.

I haven't watched Morbius as yet and the only reason why is because I feel like Jared Leto is intentionally trying to become Nicholas Cage and I don't want to support that.

There is something about the cringe that hooks me. And with a TV series? That weekly cringe? That is peak entertainment.

It used to take me 4 sometimes 5 hours to watch and digest a single episode of Titans because there were so many questions to think about.

I hyperfixate on bad writing. Trying to figure out all the ways it went wrong and why and what they were trying to do. Once I start, I can't stop thinking about it. I'm hoping swhhw gets it out of my system, but I don't know.

Like, anybody can make good TV. Anybody can do that if you try hard enough. But truly horrible TV isn't supposed to exist. It's like 20 million an episode to make HotD? Nobody is supposed to invest that in a show where the showrunner doesn't even know how old the characters are. Bad TV shows are supposed to be snuffed out before they see the light of day.

But HotD is something special.

You don't accidentally end up with a Koolaid Dragon busting up through concrete. A director described that scene to a VFX crew. The actors had to rehearse that repeatedly. They had to do a read-through...

Like, just think about that.

And then they announce that they're going ahead with s2 without writers?!

That is insane. Part of me says look away, and the other part of me says that s2 of HotD will be something the likes of which I'll never see again.

I really don't want to watch S2, but honestly, I might. Not because I think it will be better but because I'm dead certain it can only get worse.

#long ass post #hotd rambling #answered asks #bad writing

[normal-thoughts-official]

I guess the question right now is: how does ******'s illegitimacy play into this

(Spoilers ahead, obviously)

The most obvious answer is that she and Vasili have been in cahoots the whole time to get the Act passed and make sure they're both elligible heirs. And it's probably the one they're going with because the whole Vasili thing has been pretty standard. But I'd like to believe that it could be more interesting than that, especially since there are still many questions:

Why would Lydea want to get the Act passed instead of just protecting the secret of her illegitimacy to begin with (there is a chance she has been killing for that reason instead, or that Vasili knows it somehow and has been threatening her with that, but still)

Why would Lydea want the throne???

Why would Lydea even tell us about the existence of an illegitimate child?

I'm gonna be pretty disappointed if Lydea just wants the throne because like... Boring motive and I do think it fits her character better to not want to be heir so she can be Captain of the Royal Guard instead. Maybe she is working with him because she wants to make sure the Act passes so Vasili can take the throne in her place. That could work and be more interesting

I did guess that she would be the illegitimate one because that would explain Viktoria's motive for wanting to neutralize Trystan, so I'm still holding on to hope that that's where this comes into play - to explain how Viktoria ended up bringing Trystan to Drakovia and forcing Vasili's hand, ruining his original plan and forcing him to scramble with the new murders

There is still the question of what the fuck he has been doing for the last 8 years, because as far as we know he just sat on his ass and did nothing. But maybe he had been waiting for Lydea's coronation so he would kill her, and the prospect of Astrid of all people taking the throne would make the Act pass near-instantly. So maybe that's what he was going for, and it got ruined when Viktoria brought Trystan back, forcing his hand. It could even be that the obvious signs pointing to a legitimate thorne - the ring, the dagger - were planted to frame Lydea, just as insurance if nothing else

But... IDK, I think what they're going for is him being in cahoots with Lydea, which really is the most boring answer. Or maybe he stole Astrid's dagger and the ring was his own and Lydea had nothing to do with this. Then maybe she's gonna fight Vasili and get him arrested and Trystan will be like woah Lydea you deserve the throne and it'll be a fun twist that she gets it because the Act passes (yes I know that's wishful thinking)

Interesting options I'd like to see but wouldn't put my stock on:

Vasili's been working with Viktoria. She could get double insurance out of this: making sure that no one finds out about Lydea and, if they ever do, that she can still inherit the throne. In which case she'd turn on Vasili the second that was done. It'd be dramatic, at least

Vasili has been using the knowledge of Lydea's illegitimacy as leverage to stop Viktoria from getting in the way of his plans/cooperating somehow? Because it is odd to me that she made no move to stop the Act, at any point

But I think what they're going for is that Vasili was behind everything, even bringing Trystan to Drakovia. Which would mean the illegitimate child thing was pretty irrelevant to the plot but whatever. And I'm not sure why he would want to bring them back, unless he hates them so much he wanted to make sure they were not only out of the way but also suffering

#for the record im pretty disappointed they went with juliana and the others' killer being the same person #like the changes in m.o and the like would be consistent with different killers #and considering how convoluted this plot has been it would make sense if there were different people with different motives involved #which is why the astrid killed juliana viktoria and colette killed the others was my favorite theory #but well #whatever #playchoices #crimes of passion #cop2 spoilers

[linklethehistorian]

Linkle, I must know, what are your thoughts on Mori as a character? His actions and motivations?? Id love to hear your opinion, btw that last chapter of cherish was great!! I loved it so much!!!

Ahhh hello there, anon, thank you so much! 🥺😭💕💖🥰 It’s such an honor to get a message like this from someone who is reading the fic. 💕🥺💖🥰💕🥺💖🥰 I’m so glad you liked Chapter 12; it definitely has one of my own personal favorite scenes, tbh (but I won’t take up your time talking about that right now lol). Having a fan base for Cherish is truly lovely; I’m so blessed by each and every one of you. 🥺💖

As for your question, I’m always happy to share!

Before I say anything at all on my opinion, though, I’m first going to make it clear that I am completely setting aside that one…particular matter that has been discussed to death by the fandom for the moment, because I fear far too many people tend to forget that it is entirely possible to make any remotely positive commentary on a fictional character without that actually somehow meaning you condone his alleged…preferences. For the people in the back that need to hear this out loud to be set at ease: I in absolutely no way do.

Now with that out of the way for a bit, let’s talk about the rest of Mori. I’ll throw it under the cut, though, both for length and for potential spoilers of multiple light novels (Dark Era, Fifteen, Storm Bringer, etc.) and obviously the manga up to his last appearance in current arc. Oh and obviously the typical Mori-related trigger subjects. Yeah.

Honestly, on a general note, these days I think Mori as a character is super cool; I’m not sure where precisely I’d rate him on the list of characters because I honestly like nearly every character in BSD and think they’re pretty awesomely written, but on a general scale of 1 to 10, he’s a very solid 8 or 9 for me.

My first introduction to him was…admittedly not at all the best possible representation of him.

When I first joined the fandom, I began my journey through the series by watching the anime adaption of Dark Era, at the behest of a dear friend who said I would be best off doing so before I watched the rest of the show (of which there were only two seasons at the time) and then reading the manga, in order to get the best and most meaningful experience; it is not something I remotely regret, and in honesty, I would probably wholeheartedly recommend any new people to do the same, if they intended to start with the anime. Regardless, though, this decision did have the impact of making me immediately strongly dislike Mori as a person from the very start, given what he did to the orphans, Oda, and Dazai by extension.

Really, I wouldn’t say that I came to see him in any particular shades of grey motivation-wise until I watched the episode titled Double Black, in which there was the first reference of what would have become of the Port Mafia and Yokohama as a whole had he not usurped the throne to the organization so many years ago.

After that, I began to look at him with a bit more understanding and curiosity, horrible and ruthless though his nature may still mostly have been. Fifteen (specifically the light novel, NOT the anime) — which it should be said, I think is the best existing canon representation of Mori in terms of giving us a good look at his thoughts and motivations — only amplified that outlook and interest for me, and I think it alone is largely to thank for why I enjoy him as a character as much as I do in current time.

Although he’s definitely not someone I’d feel particularly comfortable writing an entire story solely around — as I don’t believe I’m expert nor absurdly passionate enough to do so compared to some genuine Mori fans that I know are out there out there — I nevertheless really, really do enjoy writing him, especially in Cherish (which is only the second time I’ve written him, if I’m honest — at least, in anything I’d consider publishing, anyway).

There’s just so much potential in him plot and personality-wise; he is incredibly flexible of a person in terms of his thoughts, mannerisms, motivations, and actions, which makes it super fun to explore and play around with when telling a story. I’d say he easily has one of the most fun personalities among the BSD ensemble, purely because of utterly unpredictable it can be; on one hand, he has moments where (at least outwardly) is capable of being extremely friendly, outgoing, generous and unassuming, and yet on the other, he is very much always inwardly observant of all that is going on around him and capable of quickly switching to being cold, calculating, and openly cruel at the drop of a hat. But even then, usually, his cruelty doesn’t come in the form of physical violence; it’s often emotional manipulation, intimidation, taking your fears and weaknesses and using them against you to get him whatever he feels he needs in the present moment. Sometimes, it isn’t even outwardly visible that the switch of gears happened; he knows how to poison you in the sweetest and most unassuming yet effective way possible — whether that poison is literal or metaphorical. He’s definitely the kind of person who could sing you to sing to sleep every night and kiss your cheek every morning even as he’s secretly plotting your demise. lol

That being said, I think a lot of the fandom, in their hatred for him as a person, tends to mischaracterize him a lot, rather than looking at it objectively. I’ve seen a lot of fics and general fandom takes that portray him as a sadistic person who is cruel simply for the sake of being cruel and does terrible things to others purely for the enjoyment factor, but that is 100% not who Mori is; canonically, Mori does what he does mostly, if not entirely, out of what he feels is necessity as the leader of the organization. Now, I’m not saying there may not be parts of him that enjoy certain things he does — it’s certainly more than possible, and even highly probable — but his actions as godfather are driven by achieving what he feels is the optimal solution, not by personal pleasure and amusement; as a matter of fact, in Fifteen, he even made it clear when speaking to Chuuya that he fully acknowledges a lot of what he does is morally reprehensible — he just feels that it is his duty to commit these atrocities for the ‘greater good’ of the organization, and that the end therefore justifies the means.

The thing is, there is a character in BSD who is exactly the way this portion of the fandom characterizes Mori, and he was even a member of the Port Mafia, so if people really wanted to canonically explore this dynamic of a character who wholly gets off on tormenting people, causing suffering and probing others’ heads rather than doing it as just a business practice, they absolutely could still do it and be true to canon by writing about said other character; it’s just that it’s not a convenient truth that a lot of the fandom wants or likes to face — because that would mean acknowledging that it was everyone’s beloved Dazai and not the oh-so-despised Mori who used to think in such a sick and twisted way during his days in the criminal underworld.

Granted, some people do write both characters very well and very accurately, and I applaud them, but I do find it frustrating when the fandom reduces either Mori to this purely evil, sadistic villain who is bad just for the sake of being bad, because he is so much more interesting as he truly is in canon.

It’s this dichotomy where his dedication to the overall well-being of his people and company is admirable and even understandable, yet at the same time his individual actions when you look at them from a moral perspective are pretty much all morally reprehensible in some way, shape, or form — if not in every way. The same is true of his time in the army; as a general concept, his desire to protect Japan during the Great War was on the whole admirable and understandable, we know that he was well-meaning about it, but at the same time, no matter how desperate the situation was, what he did to Yosano and his entire army was absolutely disgusting and unacceptable — especially because it came so easily to him to do it and he made no apologies for it nor expressed any guilt over the suffering he caused later on.

Do I think Mori is, on the whole, a good person? Absolutely not. Do I think that he sometimes has the best of intentions in mind with his schemes? In the grander scheme of things, yes; it’s just that he mostly doesn’t care who or how many he has to hurt to achieve that so long as it’s slightly less than his net gain from doing it, which in turn cancels out things enough to prevent him from ever being labeled as being or acting as a “good person” at any moment.

I think the best, most objective description of him is to say that he’s pragmatic and ruthless.

…And then obviously there’s the part that everyone in the fandom discusses to death — about the main universe version of him being into little girls. Not a whole lot to say about that; it’s gross, it’s wrong, it’s unforgivable, it’s morally reprehensible, and it’s chilling and disturbing and it definitely completely disqualifies him from being labeled a good person even if he had been able to earn that title from something he did somewhere along the way.

That being said — and I know this is probably going to be controversial to a lot of the fandom, so let me say upfront that I’m not saying that that isn’t 100% a valid and understandable reading of who he is and the way he feels based on all the evidence throughout the series, nor am I trying to convince anyone otherwise — purely because it is fiction and therefore all made up to begin with, at least for my own personal comfort, I typically choose in my own personal readings to just look at him as someone with a particular weakness for little girls because he’s fatherly — although I make no effort to claim that to be the objective truth, nor does such interpretation affect or influence any of my writings in any way; it’s simply the way I prefer to engage with BSD on my own personal time — outside of my writings.

As a matter of fact, in my one fic, Bittersweet Belief, he was intentionally written with the intention of being portrayed as a groomer, and in Cherish, his ‘tastes’ will be portrayed no less nor more suspicious than how they are in canon, and therefore it will never be fully, directly addressed, but may be interpreted however you wish.

I do not need people coming to me providing evidence of why they believe there is no way to look at it differently, as again, I am not arguing that it is objectively untrue in any way that Mori is written to be a pedo in BSD, and when in public spaces among other people talking about it I don’t even try to say otherwise, much less convince anyone of it. I understand fandom etiquette and I am not trying to erase anything about him from others’ perceptions in order to make him more “likable”. I am just engaging with BSD, whenever I am personally reading it and watching it, in the way that is more comfortable for me. Nothing more, nothing less.

Anyway, yeah, Mori’s a super fun character to write and observe in the BSD world! I think there’s a lot of depth to him and he’s very well-written — probably among my top past antagonists purely for the super interesting personality and the purely pragmatic outlook to life and business.

#linklethehistorian #bsd #bungou stray dogs #bsd spoilers #ougai mori #bsd mori #mori ougai #bsd novels #fifteen #dazai osamu and the dark era #bsd manga #bsd anime #thoughts #my thoughts #ask #anon #ily anon #thank you for the question anon! #TL;DR as a person I don’t really like him all that much but as a character I think he’s really neat and chilling #And REALLY fun to write #cherish #my fanfic #my original content #my writing

[alovelyburn]

What do you think the endgame of Berserk would be like if Griffguts became canon? And what do you think would happen to Charlotte and the rest of the Black Swordsman party as a result?

....that's quite a question!

I mean in part it depends on what you mean by "canon" - if it's just explicit confirmation of their feelings then I don't imagine much would really change since the feelings are already present.

If you mean them literally ending up together romantically that's a WHOLE can of worms like you have to ask how they'd arrive in that place to begin with and then extrapolate from there about what the effects of that would be.

So let's see, if we're arriving at "Griffith and Guts get together" in this hypothetical Berserk ending, the first thing we need to do is ask what would make that possible. And since the question is about what the ending would be like under these circumstances (rather than like, what kind of fanfic would you write about this thing) I'm going to try to stick to things that would be tonally appropriate and fulfill the narrative promise as best as I can and not like, send them back in time or whatever.

So the first step to getting them to a place where they'd get together without completely going off the rails would be getting them on the same side. The good thing is they aren't really motivated by the same things and so their drives could theoretically both be achieved simultaneously.

For Guts I think there's only one real thing that could enable him to let go of his grudge and that is getting Griffith to a place where he can give Guts what he needs in order to move on. This basically means making him feel the weight of his actions and regret them or at least feel bad about it. That shouldn't be that difficult though, you'd just have to unfreeze his heart. It would probably also help if Guts were given some kind of understanding of why Griffith made the choices he did - a view of the Eclipse mindfuck sequence for example. I don't think understanding in itself would be enough but it would be a point along that path.

For Griffith as it stands what he wants is obviously to pursue his ambitions until he runs out of sky, more or less. Also to change the world. ...I kind of feel like once you get Guts to let go of the past, getting him on board with this wouldn't be that hard, but the other thing is that getting Guts on board would mean unfreezing Griffith's heart and if you do that then the entire equation changes since then the dream/ambition ceases to be the thing he is most invested in. So I think you could justify either having Griffith remain on the throne and Guts become like his enforcer/general, or having Griffith make the sacrifice of walking away from it.

I think for shippers in particular the second is more satisfying (well not for me necessarily, but I mean as a generality perhaps?). It's also probably the most... balanced outcome? There's poetry in it for sure - Griffith gave up everyone he loved in order to hold onto his dream, so in order to regain favor with the one he loves, he has to give up the thing he sold them out for. It would also get around the issue of Guts having to like, live and cooperate with the Apostles who ate the Hawks and raped Casca.

So I guess at this point in the brainstorming we have "Griffith somehow gets his emotions back and feels the weight of his actions, then gives up his dream in order to regain Guts' trust and affection."

So what would that mean for the RPG group.

Well I think in order to get to the this point Casca would probably have to be dead already. As long as she's alive Guts would have a very difficult time moving on, because she is a walking reminder of that betrayal. The other two things I can think of would be Casca becoming an apostle, thus removing a lot of the moral tug of war for Guts, or Casca just ditching them. I'm not sure the latter is really in character, though. Either way I don't see her still hanging around if Guts and Griffith made up - it's kind of a smack in the face if she has her memories back.

Isidro probably doesn't care about the moral implications of forgiving Griffith so I don't see why he'd necessarily leave.

I think that, aside from Casca, Schierke would have the biggest problem with it since her nature/background means she knows a bit more than the others about what Griffith is, and more importantly than that, he had Flora killed. So my feeling with her is that she'd be incredibly hurt and would leave.

This puts Farnese in a position where she has to choose between her loyalty to Guts and her loyalty to Schierke. Depending on how much she knows about Casca's background at this point, and depending on what happened to Casca, that could also be a major factor. In any case, given that her primary reason for following Guts was to find her way, and her other thing with Guts is that she's in love with him, but in this scenario he's decided to hook up with Griffith, I think she would ultimately leave with Schierke.

And obviously Serpico goes with Farnese, although I imagine he'd be more ambivalent about the choice itself.

Puck just goes where Guts goes, and Ivalera goes with Schierke.

...So I guess the outcome of this path would be Guts and Griffith traveling with Isidro??!?!

Additional thoughts:

-I'd probably have Schierke, Farnese and Serpico either go back to Flora's forest and try to rebuild there, or keep traveling and learning new things and seeking new systems of magic.

-Does that make Isidro Guts and Griffith's adopted kid, IDEK.

-I guess this route leaves Falconia in Charlotte's hands. I think it's be interesting if Casca became an apostle and then remained in falconia to support Charlotte by keeping the demon armies in check, though I'm not sure it actually makes sense for her to be able to do that. ...also a lot of them assaulted her uh let's kill all of the survivors from the eclipse off so there's just some that didn't assault her. Ahem. EDIT: Actually unless you can find a way to de-godhand Griffith he's still the master of the apostles. so maybe he could just give the eclipse apostles another assignment I guess?

-Locus and Zodd would probably defect from Falconia and follow Griffith around. Two out of five morning Griffith would wake up to find Guts in a physical fight with one of them over some completely inconsequential bullshit.

-I have no idea about the tertiary rpg group. Leave them in Falconia maybe.

-EDIT: With Schierke being gone this leaves Griffith in charge of ego-checking the armor, I think?

Obviously there are other ways to go with it, and it's not even like what I personally would do, but I do think it's one of the more believable routes one could take toward that outcome.

It's tough though - even though I'm the first to say Guts would forgive Griffith if even a good reason to, I do think the story itself is s designed to prevent them from actually getting anywhere. And in the end I feel like if they ever reconcile it'll be on one or both of their death beds.

Or... death battlefields. As the case may be.

#ask #anonymous #ariel talks about berserk

[astaroth1357]

How the Brothers Would Try to Corrupt MC w/ Their Sin

I have a headcanon that it's part of demonic nature to try and corrupt humans. Though I think it would be unlikely that the brothers would try to intentionally corrupt MC post-pact, it's still like second nature to them. That means they may try to unintentionally, uh… infect their soul with sin and drag them down into eternal damnation! They don't mean it, but be careful MCs of the world.

Lucifer

One of the hardest things to do can be to make others take pride in themselves… but Lucifer is always ready for a challenge.

The name of the game is praise. The human mind can be easy to manipulate so with enough praise even the most stubborn human will start to believe a drop of their own hype.

Building up pride is a steady thing... He'll usually pick a strength or talent of the MC to give high praise. Perhaps they sing beautifully or they're rather clever, don't worry. He'd let them know.

Light sprinkles of praise steadily increase their self-esteem, which may seem nice and almost healthy at first, but in truth he's laying a trap… He knows how effective his words can be and he's just waiting for them to go to the MC's head.

You think then he would be done right? Oh no. That's not the fun part. What's fun is to then offend that pride he's spent so long building.

He thinks it's cute, really. A small comment here or a little condensation there and they'll get so mad. It's just so amusing!

Of course, he can't take what he dishes, so they'll need to watch out. But don't worry he loves them, even if they're just a little too fun to play with…

Mammon

Since when does the Avatar of Greed give gifts?

Really, that should be the MC's first red flag. Mammon isn't known for generosity, so when he's spending what little money he can hold onto on them, it's time to raise some eyebrows.

It may seem nice, almost sweet, when he manages to track down a rare vintage of wine for them or take them out to a ritzy restaurant for the night but unfortunately it's all just part of the plan…

Nobody has tastes higher than Mammon. He can't afford them most of the time, which leads to compromises, but given all the Grim in the world he'd be living in the lap of luxury - which is exactly the kind of lifestyle he wants the MC to crave too.

Anyone, no matter how modest, can give into temptation. How easy would it be to taste the sweetest wine or enjoy the most wonderful trip then want to do it again? It may seem innocent at first, but piling on the finer things can soon have the MC craving for them when they pass.

Then all Mammon needs is to make little promises, "If I make it big this time, then we'll go to France!" or, "If I win this next hand then I'll buy ya another glass." 

So how many times will the MC give Mammon a pass, then? Will they stop questioning how he comes up with his cash? Will they let him gamble just that "little bit" longer? Will they even join him...?

If they keep getting that taste of luxury, then maybe it's not so bad… right?

Leviathan 

You think the easiest way to get the MC jealous would be to flirt with other people since that's how most people go about it but, uh… 

This is Levi we're talking about. Casual flirting is pretty much out of the question.

So what is a demon to do to get their hapless human jealous? The answer is, be patient.

No one's perfect, humans especially! They'll slip up eventually… 

Maybe someone from back home just got a new car or they're sending out marriage invites. 

Maybe they have a friend who's better than them at school or sports or there's just someone who has something they want: Money, talent, looks, followers, friends, you name it. When they see it, he can feel that envy creeping in…

From there, all he has to do is feed it. Let the world poke at their little insecurities for him while he plays the supportive boyfriend!

"Did Mammon really get the promotion? I thought it would have been you! That's so unfair..."

"Satan beat your scores again? What is this, the third time? Doesn't that suck?"

Small little comments… but all with a goal to fill the MC with toxicity...

"Are Asmo videos still doing better than yours? I think I know how to drop his numbers... if you want."

And soon enough, anyone can be an enemy. Everyone has it better than them… so they push the world away in order to feel better. And they become so toxic, the world rejects them in turn...

Except, of course, for their loving boyfriend, Levi.

Satan

If you want to keep someone mad, it's best if you're not the actual one doing it.

I know, it sounds counterintuitive, but turning yourself into the enemy risks the target cutting you out. Satan knows this, so he'll never enrage the MC directly...

But indirectly? There's a start.

Everybody has little pet peevs. Tiny things that aren't important, but dig under the skin nonetheless.

Breadcrumbs in the butter, gum-smacking, toe-tapping, tones of voice, or just little annoying inconveniences that can sour one's day...

Satan is well-versed in these tiny annoyances, he'd dare say they're in his domain. And, perspective that he is, he'll know what frustrates the MC soon enough.

Then it's just a matter of execution.

Maybe he jacks with their toothpaste tube or "conveniently" forgets where they put their books... Or they keep mysteriously finding fingerprints on their game disks or seemingly can't keep their room organized to save their life!

It may just seem like the world hates them... but really it's just their demonic lover.

These tiny details and little mishaps will just build and build like cracks in their foundation until it all breaks and comes crashing down… and he'll be right there egging on every moment of it!

Asmodeus 

You would think that Asmo would have the easiest time tempting the MC into his sin, but that's not so.

Sure, most traditional definitions of Lust begin and end at carnal desire, but what about those MCs who maybe aren't so drawn to the sins of the flesh? Fear not! Because the keyword for Asmo is desire.

Really, Asmo is happy if the MC's mind is full of nothing but him. He wants them to desire him, to love him obviously, but to the point of obsession. His heated kisses and sensual whispers are only means to that end, which can change whenever he needs.

The MC will have their life bombarded by their beautiful demon. It's not an unwelcome smothering, he's among the best boyfriends they could ever hope to have, which is exactly why he’s so effective!

He wants them to need him at every moment. Soon it will feel weird to go places alone without their demon… Certain things they could do themselves, like their hair or getting dressed, they'll want him to do instead.

Of course, if he's able then he'll certainly seduce them as well and at every chance he gets! From the House to RAD and even in the throne room - he's shameless!... But that's the fun, isn't it?

Beelzebub 

Oh Beel… He's probably the most dangerous one of them all. Not because he's so demonic, but because he's so sweet!

When Beel makes food for the MC or orders them an extra side, he does so with love. He just wants them to be full! ...or so he thinks.

Beel's demonic instincts creep up on even him, he's just not one to really question what or why he does things sometimes. He'll know he has the urge to see the MC eat or just be indulgent… but he won’t know why.

You could actually say it works to his advantage. Whenever he offers the MC another turkey leg or a few more bites of cake, his tenderhearted insistence is often so sweet that they'll just go along with it and try to keep eating… even if they're already full.

Now, the human body can only take so much food at once, but over time it can adapt to changing habits.

Eventually, the MC will find their appetite expanding to catch up… They'll stop feeling full as easily as they used to and soon the bigger portions that Beel gives them will be all but a necessity!

Of course, the worst case scenario is that this doesn't happen at all and they do serious harm to their health by always pushing past their limits… but there's no guarantee Beel's solution won't just be more food anyway.

Belphegor 

Belphie is the only brother who will knowingly (and gleefully) try to make the MC as sinful as he is!

It's all for selfish reasons. If the MC is slothful, then they'll want to go out less and (probably) spend time with him more. Win-win if you're Belphie.

Since he's well aware of what he's doing, he's pretty damn effective at it. No other brother will be as committed to meddling with the MC as he is.

He'll convince them to cancel plans or sabotage their alarms so they oversleep. He'll suddenly be unable to sleep without them while his naps seemingly get longer and longer… And if they have something to do, he'll be the voice in their ear saying it can wait!

Really, at any opportunity he can get Belphie will try to drag them down or slow their progress with the sweet, sweet promise of relaxation or a good time...

Sure, it may sound nice at the time - great even! - but it won't take long for their promises to break or deadlines to pile up… Sure, the MC could try to catch up but wouldn't that be too much work? Wouldn't they rather rest instead? Why even worry about it?

It's a seductive line of thought and Belphie sells it well, it'd take only the most motivated MC to resist his charms but like that'd stop him. If he wants the MC for himself, he'll happily put their life on hold to do so. Just go with it... yeah?

#obey me #obey me shall we date #shall-we-date-obey-me #obey me lucifer #obey me mammon #obey me leviathan #obey me satan #obey me asmodeus #obey me beelzebub #obey me belphegor #obey me headcanons #i got really excited to use the word ritzy #don't get enough chances for that kind of thing

[redisaid]

In Good Company - Chapter 23

Last Goodbye

Struggled with the tone of this chapter for months. Realized this is still very much a cute and happy fic and that putting too much dark shit in it is obviously a stupid choice. Made Lirath and Vereesa have a slapfight instead. Bon appetite.

11808 Words

Read it on Ao3!

They say that anger is usually a hot, heady emotion. All fire and flare and outburst. But Sylvanas’ anger dripped as a cold, a clammy sweat of pain across her brow. A chill across fingers that poked out from bandaged hands, still healing, their flesh still pink and new and tender and wrong. All because of Kael’thas. And even now, as he sat before her in a plain wooden chair, in a prison cell, hands bound to stop his magic, he wouldn’t tell her why.

Worse, perhaps, and indeed the source of the bitter cold of her anger, stinging the words as they left her lips with each demand met with yet more silence, was the fact that Jaina still lay in the infirmary, recovering from this. She’d collapsed into unconsciousness again shortly after being rescued, and now she still hadn’t woken after two days of sleep. And despite Liadrin’s constant assurances that she was fine, that her body just needed time to heal, and to catch up from the healing that the priests and priestesses had sped along for her, Sylvanas would not forgive or forget that fact. Not even as she leaned down her cane, biting into the heel of her tender, bandaged palm, and stared Kael’thas down, demanding again an answer he would not give.

“Talk, cur,” she spat. “You’re normally so eager to hear your own voice. Silence doesn’t suit you.”

Lor’themar was there, watching her from the corner, seated in a far more comfortable chair than Kael’thas. One had been provided for her as well, but Sylvanas hadn’t sat in it since she entered the room over an hour ago. She hadn’t limped all the way from her own hospital bed on Lor’themar’s arm just to sit back and ask her questions.

And truly, while he had told her that Kael’thas wasn’t talking, she wasn’t prepared for this silence. This defiance. Even as the prince sat humbled and beaten. His angular face still bore bruises from the pommel of Valeera’s dagger, turning from deep purple to a sickly green as they dissipated. It seemed hardly enough of a mark for Sylvanas’ taste. A temporary pain that would fade with time. A guarantee of return to normal where she had none.

Only there would be no normal now for Prince Kael’thas Sunstrider. Not after this latest act of his. Not after what amounted to an international incident with the potential to shake up the foundering ties that held the Grand Alliance together when it wasn’t at war. That, even old Anasterian had to act on. The elven king normally ignored the posturing of his son and heir, but had been here before Sylvanas herself to speak with him, and to tell him personally that this had cost him the throne of Quel’thalas, for all it was worth.

After all, no one wanted to be ruled by a man who had blatantly attempted murder in front of a crowd of people and expected to get away with it.

Apparently, the only words that had come out of Kael’thas’ mouth since then had been to berate his father for such a short-sighted decision as that. But he refused to speak again afterward, and refused even to explain his motives to his father, despite the outburst.

Even now, Anasterian’s voice could be heard speaking low through the halls of the holding cells with a few of his magisters, still discussing his son’s fate just outside.

The jail they’d taken the prince to had become a regular hub of activity. On her way in, Sylvanas had seen the faces of nobles, dignitaries, Ranger Lords, and mages alike that she knew from court balls and occasions where they would look down their noses at her, thinking themselves better than the relatively young and unproven Ranger General. Only today, they had offered her quiet nods and salutes as she walked past, leaning heavily on Lor’themar’s arm.

“What I fail to understand,” Sylvanas began again, leaning back onto heels that protested being shoved back into boots when they too were still healing, still tender and raw as she felt beneath the new skin that covered them. “Is what you stood to gain from all this? Why was it worth it to you? I know how you work, Kael’thas. I know this isn’t just some sick game you’re playing for fun. You had a reason.”

Kael’thas didn’t take her pause as an opportunity to provide it. He did as he had for the last hour, and stared at the ground between his feet. He’d only even looked at her once, when she first came in, and his only reaction had been to let out a huff and stare back at the ground.

“You wanted this from the moment you tried to get me to take Jaina as a ranger. Her specifically, you wanted. But whatever it was you were trying to do, it didn’t work, did it?” Sylvanas asked him. “It didn’t work. You didn’t get what you wanted. You only hurt a woman who trusted you, a woman who had already been hurt enough, and you hurt her again. And for what? Nothing? Silence? How stupid do you think we are to believe that we won’t find out?”

Dar’kahn had offered a similar silence to his interrogators. Sylvanas knew better than to bother with that one. He had no better nature to appeal to. Neither did Kael’thas, of course, but he did have his pride. And she could poke and prod at that pride for an answer until it came. Even if her body sang with pain and exhaustion and begged her to go back to the bed Liadrin threatened to order her not to leave.

But Sylvanas was not one to stand idly by. Even she had only just woken from her own extended slumber that morning. But she wasn’t about to let a body that was still healing all over from arcane burns stop her from getting her answers.

Though Kael’thas was not giving any.

“I told you,” she went on. “I told you before I left this city. Because I suspected you had some scheme in mind, though not something like this. I told you that once Jaina became one of my rangers, that I would do whatever it took to protect her--from you or from anything else. And I did. I won. You lost, Kael’thas. And now you’ll lose everything for it. At least tell us why you thought it was worth it.”

She watched as fists formed from his hands, clenching against the cuffs that bound his hands with runed metal, preventing him from casting any spells. The first reaction she’d gotten out of him this entire time. It should have pleased her, but it only made Sylvanas more angry. How dare he? How dare he be angry? How dare he even breathe, snorting out his nose like that--like a cornered bull?

He was a sad, impudent thing. A defeated man, a prisoner of war, a criminal. He ought to act like it.

But still, he stared at the floor, nostrils flared and eyes wild. But he did not speak.

The starched, stiff fabric of Sylvanas’ officer’s uniform bit into the back of her calves and her elbows and every soft bit of skin that pleaded against such mistreatment. Little pains here and there, little reminders of a sacrifice she’d made because of his actions. Her body. Her troops. Her sisters in arms. All of them were recovering as she was from their own burns. From their own sacrifices in order to save Jaina.

All for a reason that Kael’thas couldn’t bother to tell.

“Sylvanas,” Lor’themar sighed out from the corner, the stiff fabric of his own uniform rustling as he stood from his chair. “I think that’s enough for today. He’s not talking. Now you’ve seen it. Let’s leave him for now and see if your brother and Rommath have figured anything out about that crystal.”

“I’m not finished.”

The words cut clean through the haze of her exhaustion and aching body. A knife slicing through fine damask, revealing the ugly truth beneath beautiful, swirling patterns. She would get her answers. She would know why.

Even if the shrill, strange tone of her voice caused Lor’themar to flinch.

“I’m giving you one last chance, Kael’thas,” she hissed, turning back to the bound prince. “One more opportunity to be honest, to come clean. Your silence is only proof of your guilt. Would you rather we assume, or that you tell us how you felt you were so, so clever? How you thought that you would get away with this?”

Kael’thas seemed to be trying very hard to keep his silence, for all the good it did him. Without his ridiculous robes and coiffed hair, he was a rather pitiful looking thing. The long strands of greasy blonde locks hung in his eyes instead of brushed back elegantly over his ears. His thin frame was strange, bereft of the shoulderpads that always made him seem so much bigger than he was. He was small and broken and impotent. Pathetic, really.

And yet, Sylvanas was still so angry at this small man and his small, fruitless plans, and all they had done to her and hers. To Jaina.

A thought came to mind. A petty and ugly thing, small and disgusting as Kael’thas himself. It felt only fitting for her to voice it.

“Or should I have daddy dearest come back in to speak with you again? Perhaps you will squeal to him in some desperate attempt to save your thrones and your clout, though I don’t think he will hear it,” Sylvanas sneered.

Oh, it was cheap. It was a hollow thing. But it sated a hunger she didn’t know had been building inside of her over this last hour. She wanted to see Kael’thas suffer. And she knew this would hurt him, which was precisely why she said it.

The fallen prince finally looked up at her, eyes burning with fire he couldn’t summon to burn her further, though surely he would have loved to, from that look. His fist strained against his bonds yet again, and he hissed in through his fangs, now bared bright and white, making him look all the more like a cornered animal. He seemed to think for a moment, but his own anger overtook him, hot and bursting where Sylvanas’ was cold.

“My father is a fool,” Kael’thas spat. “All of you are fools. Short-sighted and narrow-minded fools. There is little point in offering you any explanation. You wouldn’t understand.”

“Oh, so he can speak! Look Lor’themar, it’s a miracle. Praise the sun,” Sylvanas drawled, standing back on sore heels, delighting in her petty victory.

Lor’themar didn’t seem to enjoy it along with her. He’d simply leaned back on the wall to watch and wait. He’d been heading the investigation in Sylvanas’ stead as she slept, insisting on keeping his men from completing their own Thalasdiel until she and her rangers were well enough to march again. In fact, most everyone of note in Silvermoon was now involved with finding out what exactly their prince and Magister Drathir were trying to do as they tossed an innocent human woman directly into the Sunwell.

So perhaps he’d seen Kael’thas have similar outbursts but still not provide answers. But Sylvanas wasn’t here to worry about what had happened before. Only what was happening now. Only the satisfaction her frozen rage demanded.

Kael’thas actually spat then, trying to hit her boot, but coming up short, just leaving a wet mark on the stone floor before his chair. “Everything I have ever done or tried to do, I have done for my people,” he said, trying to make his nasally voice low and growling.

“That’s a lie, Kael’thas,” Sylvanas told him. “A lie you tell yourself. The worst kind. My rangers are your people, lest you forget.”

“Your rangers interfered,” Kael’thas grunted.

“We both know that’s not the ranger I’m talking about,” Sylvanas said, leaning back down to him. Definitely within spitting range this time, but let him try.

Let him see what happened if he dared to spit in her face.

But instead of spitting, he slapped her with words, “I should have known you’d grow too fond of the girl. You Windrunners seem to prefer humans, after all.”

“Cheap,” Sylvanas chided, not moving from where she stood, inches from his face, enough to smell the stink of his breath and body from having spent two days in a jail cell, sweating and festering in his guilt.

She wasn’t much better herself. She stank of antiseptic and liniment. Her hair too hung lip and listless beyond the bounds of her hood. A brief glance in the mirror before Lor’themar had come to escort her had shown her a reflection staring back at her with pallid skin where it wasn’t pink and new from a healed burn, and kohl applied days ago and half-wiped away, running from her red-rimmed eyes. But there had been no time to fix it. And for once, Sylvanas didn’t really care what she looked like.

She wanted her chance to find out for herself why Kael’thas had tried to ruin everything for her, and for Jaina.

“I don’t have to explain myself to my fool of a father,” Kael’thas continued ranting once he realized his sordid barb didn’t land. “I know better than him. I’m not so blind-sided by tradition and honor that I can’t see the future Quel’thalas needs. But you, Sylvanas. I don’t need to explain myself to you either. Not to your pitiful attempt to fill your mother’s shoes, to call yourself a Ranger General.”

Her rage went from icy cold to hot steam in a matter of a few words. Another cheap barb, but it twisted itself in a place that Sylvanas had let fester in this decade rather than allow to heal. There was never time for her to heal. Never time for her to grieve. She just went on and on and on, stretching herself thinner and thinner.

Didn’t he understand? Didn’t he know? While she stood resolute and steadfast through her pain, working to defend this land, did he know that as he attended his little parties and plotted his little schemes? Could he possibly understand what sacrifice truly meant? What it truly was to lead and to love and to care so, so much?

Sylvanas did. Her mother had. Even Anasterian knew this. Every one of her rangers as they bravely dove into the Sunwell to rescue their own knew it. But Kael’thas did not.

Sylvanas’ cane clattered to the floor, forgotten. Her legs shook, not quite strong enough to support her, but also from rage that bubbled up, hotter now than the arcane that had burned her skin and rent her soul even as she swam and swam and prayed and hoped.

She struck him before she could even think about it. A fast, decisive punch to the cheek. It only registered when her bandaged hand connected with bone and shot a bolt of pain up her arm. Even then, it felt surreal as Kael’thas cried out, reeling back just as Sylvanas did herself, blood beginning to drip from his nose.

“Sylvanas!” Lor’themar shouted as he roused himself from the wall, coming over just in time to catch her before she fell back.

She was so tired. So exhausted. Every time she was close to something good, something she so very much needed, there was someone trying to take it from her. The world itself just took and took and took. It hardly gave anything to Sylvanas Windrunner, of all people. And when it did, it threatened to take it all away before she could even blink.

The anger that consumed her sputtered out. No longer hot or cold. Sylvanas felt hollow. A thing used up and strung out in a way she never let anyone see. Yet Lor’themar was holding her up by her armpits, and Kael’thas was groaning and spitting blood down his chest.

Behind her, Lor’themar retained the cool that both of the others had lost, calmly stating, “I think that we’ve had enough interrogation for today. You’re tired, Ranger General, and still recovering. You need to rest.”

Well, one thing the world had given her and still hadn’t taken was the friendship of this dear man, who held her up even as he bent to retrieve her cane, and let her lean on him as they walked out of the cell without so much as another word or question.

Only when the guards at the door closed and locked it behind them did Lor’thermar mutter, “We’re all in agreement that the prince hit himself to cause that bloody nose, right lads?”

And the spellbreakers, though they were not rangers and had no bound of departmental loyalty forcing them to agree, nodded their heads at Lor’themar’s suggestion, until it was clear that there was no other truth beyond that one for all who had ears enough to witness what had just happened.

The jail was located in the armory building of Farstrider Square. It was a brig, really, meant to contain soldiers awaiting court martial. But all involved had agreed that this was Ranger business, and had not offered any resistance to the prince being detained in a Ranger jail. Thus, it was a building Lor’themar knew well enough to sweep them through mostly unoccupied areas, away from the crowding magisters and nobles and officials in the nearby halls, and into the office of some warden or another before he closed the door.

He locked it behind them, sighing out a deep breath as he said, “While I’m jealous you got to be the one to do it, you do realize that punching him in the face was over the line, right?”

“He pushed Jaina into the Sunwell,” Sylvanas groaned, hobbling over to the desk and the worn chair behind it before sitting down. She shook her hand, still tingling pins and needles and specks of pain from her actions. “I think that entitles me to one punch.”

“I’m serious, Sylvanas,” Lor’themar said as he turned to her, ears low with concern. “That’s…not like you. I know you better. You don’t stoop to those lows.”

“I was angry,” she told him, then corrected to, “I am angry.”

“Angry doesn’t justify hitting a bound man in the face,” Lor’themar went on. “Even if he is a complete twat.”

“What else was I supposed to do? Let him insult me? Let him gloat? While I worry that Jaina won’t be the same when and if she ever wakes?” Sylvanas asked, feeling her voice rise in that same shrill tone as before.

“Liadrin said she’s going to be fine, Sylvanas,” Lor’themar coolly reminded her.

“You don’t know that. Even she doesn’t know that for sure,” Sylvanas snapped back at him.

“Will you take the hint to calm down and stop screaming at me?” Lor’themar asked, shaking his head. “I’ve half a mind to cart you out of here on my shoulder back to that infirmary and put you down for a nap like you’re a tantruming toddler. Listen to yourself.”

Though her anger had lost its power, it was still there, rattling around in the emptiness it had left behind. Unsatisfied, even though the contact her fist hand made with Kael’thas face still stung her fingers. “I’m not screaming,” she answered back, quietly enough for her to realize that she might have been on the edge of screaming.

“Speaking of Jaina, what would she think of you, hmm? Acting like this for her sake? Get a hold of yourself. I know you’re better than this and so does she,” Lor’themar urged.

The realization dawned on her in a way that was more exhausting than the rest of this day had been all at once. No, Jaina would not like what she’d just done. Jaina would expect better of her. Even though she knew of Sylvanas’ flaws and doubts by now, and still seemed to love her despite them, this might be too much for her to bear. To see her ugly and petty and angry, as broken as the man she tried to break. No, she could be better. She would be. She had to be.

Shame crept into her as a new chill, consuming and shaking her shoulders. She’d always had a bit of a temper. But she kept it under control. It was easy enough when it was her own faults she defended it against. But Jaina…her mother’s memory…her rangers. It was one thing when someone dared to hurt something that belonged to her, or tried to take from her what little she had left. What little was truly hers.

But, Lor’themar was right. The ends didn’t justify the means. She didn’t have to take the low blow for every low blow taken against her. She knew it. She normally followed the plan of taking the high road and seeing her justification play out later when the offending party got their just desserts. But her anger had gotten the better of her this time. It had taken over her mind and her heart and her body so quickly that she’d become a thing possessed.

She was not going to let that happen again.

“I’m sorry,” Sylvanas nearly whispered, hanging her head into trembling hands. “You’re right.”

“You have every reason to be angry, and I’m not saying it’s not justified. Next time go punch a wall or scream into a pillow like you used to do when you got dumped back in officer school,” Lor’themar suggested as he found a seat in a chair on the opposite side of the desk, slumping down into it with an exhaustion almost as heavy as her own.

“You heard that?” she asked.

“You scream a lot louder than you think, even back then you did. But hey, now you have a very nice little mage to come home to when she wakes up, and that ranger probably has no one, or something. Look at me, now you’re making me petty right along with you,” Lor’themar offered.

A smile quirked its way onto her lips despite it all, “You’ve never not been petty.”

“In the privacy and comfort of our friendship, sure,” Lor’themar said with a little laugh.

“Thank you,” Sylvanas said, throwing her head back and making an effort to wipe some of the lingering kohl from under her eyes.

“Don’t mention it,” Lor’themar replied with a wave. “Literally, don’t. Because neither you nor I want to deal with the fallout.”

“Agreed,” Sylvanas offered quietly.

Both of their ears perked at footsteps just beyond the door, and then again at the knock that followed.

And then fell again in relief as Lirath’s familiar voice called out, “Sylvanas? The guards said you went in here.”

“Come in, Lirath,” she told him, wiping at her face again to regain some semblance of normalcy for her brother, though he’d seen her that morning when she first woke, still groggy and disoriented in her hospital bed.

Lor’themar graciously stood to unlock the door for him, and opened it to reveal Lirath impeccable in his usual pale lavender robes, twirling a sickly green crystal covered with a strange webbing of runed gold in his good hand.

“My my, don’t you two look a mess,” Lirath noted. “You both need a nap. Or coffee. Coffee is probably more realistic.”

“I’m a tea man, Lirath, you know this,” Lor’themar said as he sunk back into his chair with little ceremony.

“And I would probably vomit at the smell of anything other than water right now,” Sylvanas told him.

“Then you’re lucky that your little brother is an awful mage and that plain water is about the best I can do,” Lirath told her as he slowly and carefully wove a rune with his golden construct hand, still a little clunky, but much improved, and then slid the simple glass of water it conjured for him over to her.

“Look at you now,” Sylvanas said as she took up the glass and offered it in toast. “I see the arm is still working.”

“It’s getting better. I have plenty more ideas to discuss with my future sister-in-law when she’s awake again,” Lirath told her.

And that was also another part of Sylvanas new reality she’d woken to that morning. While she had happily given Jaina her token and made her intentions to be serious with her clear, it had only just been a thing that happened between the two of them. They had made no effort to announce it or even discuss how they might do so yet, but the fact had been made plain to all those who’d helped and healed the squadron and brought them to rest in the Ranger’s infirmary, as Sylvanas’ feather pendant lay exposed on Jaina’s chest for everyone to see. The priestesses had been so kind to leave it on her, very obvious to all over the white hospital robes she still slept in.

Sylvanas only groaned to that acknowledgement. At least everyone else saw levity enough in the situation to use it to make fun of her. If only she could agree. But no, she wouldn’t. Not until she knew for certain that Jaina would wake the same person she was as before she fell. No. She was pushed.

Sylvanas stilled her simmering anger. Now was not the time.

“Why did you bring that thing with you?” she asked after taking a long sip of the water. She gestured to the crystal Lirath was still spinning around idly in his left hand.

“To give you a report, like a good little soldier,” Lirath told her. “Honestly I’m enjoying being useful far more than I thought. Who would have known? Jaina got me interested in these things after partially solving my limb problem with one, so I was actually able to help Magister Rommath for once. We’re still not quite sure what the hell this thing is,” he went on, spinning the crystal onto the surface of the desk. It landed near Sylvanas, wobbling and glowing a faint, revolting shade of green. “But can now say with confidence that the magic it calls upon is fel in nature.”

“Fel? Like…demonic fel?” Lor’themar asked.

Lirath nodded, giving a triumphant little grin as he did. “Yes, like dirty little warlocks summoning imps in the basement fel. Stuff that we don’t talk about in the halls of the magistrate or the purple towers of Dalaran fel. Gets you kicked out of mage college faster than asking about necromancy fel.”

“What on Azeroth would they want with that?” Sylvanas wondered, leaning away from the foul little thing.

It was maybe as long as her hand. The runes on it were not from any language she knew of, though those were hardly her specialty. She could read and write in Common and Thalassian, and could stumble through both in Amani, and that was more than enough for her.

“That, I have no clue on, but supposedly our dear sister might be making a little progress,” Lirath told them. He grinned again as he watched both her and Lor’themar stir to attention, then said, “Vereesa and a few or her rangers just dragged in one of Kael’thas’ little lackeys who showed up just after you finished having your swim. We’re pretty sure they’re all involved in some form or another, but this one was talking when I saw him last, unlike his fellows.”

Both of Sylvanas’ siblings had insisted on immediately involving themselves with the ongoing investigation as soon as they’d witnessed her own awakening that morning. They’d spent an hour giving her shit and making sure she ate something, then promptly went to make nuisances of themselves for Lor’themar and his men.

“Really?” Lor’themar asked. “I interviewed them all yesterday and not a single one was willing to speak.”

“They’re noblemen, Lord Theron. Take away their fine silk clothes and give them bread and water for dinner and a hard floor to sleep on and you’ll be surprised how fast they change their minds. I’d say quite a lot if you did the same to me,” Lirath noted. “But I don’t plan on using evil magic and tossing people into the Sunwell anytime soon, so I think my secrets are safe.”

“You have no secrets, you shameless lout,” Lor’themar laughed. “I need to visit the Spire more often, I think.”

“Please stop flirting with my brother, I am right here,” Sylvanas pleaded. “And he’s telling us important things.”

“I’ll behave if Lord Theron does,” Lirath said, reaching for the crystal again. “Anyway, save that it is fel and nature and we can’t make it do anything, I can’t tell you much more about this. My best guess is that it was designed for some sort of demonic ritual. As to why in Belore’s name Kael’thas and Dar’khan were fucking around with demons, I can’t tell you.”

“And neither will they,” Sylvanas noted. “But that adds a layer of why to it.”

“Fel is universally despised by the magic community, at least here in the civilized north,” Lirath noted, waving the crystal back at them for dramatic effect. “Stormwind doesn’t seem to mind using what the invaders left behind on their doorstep on occasion, but even the orcs refuse to use it now in their reformation, and they’re the ones that brought it over with them. You ever read up on that, by the way? Their claims of what happened to their home world? It’s insane.”

“Both of us know more about it than we care to, Lirath,” Sylvanas told him.

It was true. She’d seen first hand the destruction their warlocks had conjured. Battlefields rent with green fire and creatures that were before unimaginable in this land, summoned from twisted worlds beyond knowledge. The First and Second wars as they were now called had made the universe in which they lived a strangely too large and too frightening place. Sylvanas liked it better when all she had to worry about were trolls, not threats from far off planets and distant, flickering stars.

“Well, then we all understand why fel magic is prohibited from further study. Yet here our prince and one of our ranking magisters were planning a ritual with it, and specifically made a point of having you tote a human mage to the Sunwell with you for the purpose of using her in that ritual,” Lirath remarked.

Sylvanas groaned again, not needing a reminder from Lirath of all people that she had fallen hook line and sinker for this plan of Kael’thas’ without even having an inkling of its severity. She should have known. She did know. She just…didn’t think them capable of actually doing something this foolish and this awful.

“You couldn’t have known what they were planning, Lady Moon,” Lirath told her. “No one did. We still don’t. But we’re working on it. And Jaina will be fine. At least she better be. Someone has to deal with you, not to mention that she also promised to finish fixing my arm.”

He grinned and wiggled his metal fingers at her for emphasis, trying very hard to wring a smile from his big sister.

It would have worked, if another knock hadn’t come at the door to this now quite crowded stolen office.

“It’s me,” Vereesa announced, before opening the door for herself and not bothering to wait.

“Do you have some sort of tracking device that you wear that your siblings are able to find you like this?” Lor’themar questioned as she entered the room.

“Only that people generally notice where the Ranger General goes and are inclined to tell us when asked,” Vereesa answered.

She was dressed in her own Ranger uniform, a rare sight, as she was usually in her Farstrider green armor or just casual clothes these days. Her work was now primarily the concern of the Kirin Tor, so perhaps the uniform was a choice to remind her fellow rangers that she was, well, still a ranger, and a captain at that.

“I was only hoping to let Sylvanas rest in private for a moment,” Lor’themar explained.

“Well, she’s not going to want to rest when she hears this,” Vereesa noted, looking down at her sister. “Though it honestly looks like you could use a nap, Lady Moon. But that can wait. One of Kael’thas’ apprentices wants to talk.”

“Lirath mentioned that might be happening,” Sylvanas told her. “But I’d like to be there.”

Vereesa offered her brother a shove, “I wanted to be the one to tell her!”

“She needed more good news than I had to give!” Lirath offered in his defense, batting his other sister away.

“You rat,” Vereesa snarled at him. “You owe me for this now. But later. We have some insanely stupid scheme to hear about.”

One change of scenery to yet another holding cell later, and Lor’themar stood with the younger Windrunners behind their sister. He’d convinced Sylvanas to sit for this round, in a chair that was distinctly placed too far away from the nervous young magister seated and similarly bound as Kael’thas was for her to punch him. Probably for the best, all things considered.

“Will you let me go, if I tell you what I know?” the young man asked.

He couldn’t have been much older than Lirath and Vereesa, if at all. With elves, it wasn’t so much about their appearance, but their demeanor and mannerisms that gave age away. Sylvanas felt a pang of guilt at how haggard and frightened the lad looked, but she knew that what Lirath had said before was true. He’d only just spent two days in a cell after being arrested at the Sunwell. He’d been fed and seen to, left alone to ponder why he felt the need to keep his master’s silence.

It wasn’t like he was strung up in some troll’s tent, hung upside down until the blood pooled hot in the tips of his ears and all he could hear was his heart desperately trying to pump it out. It wasn’t like he’d gotten his eye torn out as Lor’themar had, or endured the burns of hot pokers that Liadrin still hid the scars of. The Amani would do him much worse if they were to take him prisoner as the enemy. The elves, at least, didn’t torture their own.

Well, when they didn’t forget themselves, that is. Sylvanas’ fist still stung, and would sting long after for the guilt of her actions, of her forgetting what was truly important.

“That depends on what you tell us,” she answered, voice coming out drained and gravely now, hardly threatening for all the youth stared and stared at her. “So I’d suggest you just start talking so we can decide that sooner rather than later.”

“I didn’t do anything. Neither did the others. We were late,” he stammered.

“Well, perhaps before all that, we can start with your name,” Sylvanas sighed.

“Valtheon Goldrange,” he answered. “Please Ranger General, I assure you--”

“I don’t really want any assurance, Valtheon. I want the truth, all of it, and to go back to bed,” Sylvanas told him.

Valtheon nodded to this, clearing his throat before he went on, “Prince Kael’thas asked us to be in the sanctum that morning and asked that we watch over him as he performed a ritual at the Sunwell. I thought it was odd, but I worked so hard to get this apprenticeship under him, and he asks for silly things all the time so…”

“So you didn’t think anything of it,” Sylvanas finished for him.

“Actually, excuse me for saying so, but no. I did. I asked the other magisters what this was about. We’d all already agreed to be available, of course, but no one really knew the whole reason for it. But others knew bits and pieces. Something about how Kael’thas needed a catalyst for this ritual that had to be a being not attuned to the Sunwell. Another knew Magister Drathir was involved and working on some sort of device with the prince--he’d been shooed out of the room when he found them together bent over it. Another said he’d been asked to procure books for the prince from Stormwind, as Quel’thalas, Lordaeron, and Dalaran forbid the study of orcish magics, but the southern kingdoms don’t care so much and allow their scholars to do what they like,” Valtheon continued.

“But what purpose did it serve?” Sylvanas asked.

The young magister did his best to shrug with his hands bound in runed anti-magic cuffs before him. “Your guess is as good as mine, Ranger General. I have been trying to figure it out myself in this cell for the last two days.”

“He kept you in the dark on purpose,” Sylvanas concluded. “He made sure none of you knew the complete picture and expected loyalty from you and your fellows without question, and you would have given it to him.”

“We were detained,” Valtheon explained. “Our ferry was late, but we didn’t hurry because we didn’t think it would be…well, what I guess that it was. And if he had asked us to defend him from our own people? Lady Windrunner, I can’t speak for the others, but I don’t think I would have.”

“Luckily for you, you never had to make that decision,” Sylvanas grunted, slumping back in her chair. Partly from relief, partly from frustration. This was more information than they’d had before, certainly, but still not a real answer. Bits and pieces. Scraps, as it were.

“I suppose I should count myself very lucky then, as I assume many more of us would have taken an arrow to the neck if that were the case, regardless of how they acted,” Valtheon said, slumping along with her at the realization.

“Believe me, the only ones I regret not shooting are the Prince and Magister Drathir, but sadly I need them to explain to me what this all was for,” Sylvanas noted.

Valtheon offered a manacled shrug again, his enchanted cuffs clinking together. “I can only piece together that it was to use the human and the power of the Sunwell to invoke some very powerful magic of the forbidden variety.”

Sylvanas could assume the same. But yet again, not what Kael’thas and Dar’khan stood to gain from such madness. What anyone would. This was why she usually distrusted mages and their magic. Things were fine as they were, and could be left well enough alone, but those types were always meddling. Always pushing the bonds of reality in a way that made her squirm. Couldn’t they just appreciate the forest for the trees? Why did they have to go summoning demons or conjuring up some spell or device to change the air temperature a few degrees when they could just stand in the sun instead?

Sylvanas rubbed at her shoulder through her uniform, aching and tired as she was all over. Her fingers ghosted over the squadron patch on it, feeling the stitching that spelled out a lynx springing from a field of tulips. Her patch was old and worn, the embroidered threads soft rather than scratchy. Not quite as clean and bright anymore as it had been the day she set out on the first steps of her own Thalasdiel. It was not that long ago for an elf, but long enough that this same patch was just as soft and faded on all of her uniforms.

She wouldn’t have it any other way.

“Lor’themar, do you think that we might arrange for Magister Goldrange here to be released to the care of his family? Under house arrest, mind you, pending his continued cooperation with our investigation,” Sylvanas asked over her shoulder as she continued to toy with the patch.

“I think that can be arranged,” Lor’themar offered with a nod and a little smile that was just for her to see.

“Good,” Sylvanas said. She looked briefly at the grateful eyes of the young magister as he vigorously nodded his thanks to her, and then back at her siblings over her other shoulder before asking, “Would you be so kind as to escort me back to my rangers, please?”

---

Knowledge of reality crept in and out of Jaina’s consciousness. She knew she slept. She knew she dreamed. She knew, vaguely, that something had happened to her. Something had changed. But most things had not.

She knew that she dreamed of floating. Floating on her back in a warm, endless sea, listening to the rhythm of the waves, feeling the sun on her cheeks. It was a needed rest, sweet and deep, comparable perhaps only to the night she’d spent in Sylvanas’ arms.

But at times, when Jaina grew restless, and wanted to swim instead of float, wanted to find the shore and leave this place, something stopped her. Something told her that she couldn’t. Not yet.

But where were Sylvanas and the others? The rangers? Her rangers? They’d saved her, hadn’t they? When she’d fallen…

Only whatever it was that kept her floating would banish those thoughts, replace her racing mind with calm. No, not yet. Not now.

But whatever it was would soon learn just how stubborn Jaina Proudmoore was.

She resisted, thrashing into the sea. The water was still warm, but violent beneath her as she tried to tread it and get her bearings. Beyond her spot of calm, the sea roiled and raged. Distant storm clouds were tinged gold with a setting sun on the horizon. Winds whipped at the wet strands of her hair. Jaina could smell a distant, earthy scent of dust and sand. Land was close, yet she couldn’t see it.

She could only see clouds as they darkened and drifted. Lightening curled through them, illuminating patterns. The more she watched them, the more detailed they became. That surely, was a face. A field. Horses. Flowers. An army, marching. Another, waiting to meet it.

All at once, the cloud dissipated, breaking up and drifting to the wind, only to form another cloud again and flash on. A skull. A bright, blinding spot of light. A mouth opened in a silent scream. A sea of figures, people with their heads bowed low.

What was this? What did it all mean? Jaina’s dreams were never like this. When she dreamed of the sea, she dreamed of her father and Derek. It was almost always the same, and not anything like this.

As if responding to her question, the clouds parted and moved and reformed again. They were lighter now, tinged more by the golden sun than their own swirling darkness.

It was then that she heard distant music, a reel floating over the water, so far away and faint that it was almost too hard to hear over the waves. A familiar song, regardless. Yet one she couldn’t place the words to. Foreign, but familiar. Jaina swam toward the sound.

It grew louder and louder, impossibly louder. The song was the sea itself and she was swimming in its notes. Here was an elven three part harmony hummed over a Kul Tiran fiddle. A somber, low cello playing the tune of a sailor singing to his long lost love. A ballad like those she’d clap along to in the student taverns of Dalaran. A stuff Lordaeron opera. Everything and nothing all at once. It should have been a cacophony of noise, but all the sounds and styles worked together rather than clashing with each other. And it was beautiful.

The song seemed to be excited for itself. It rolled through all of these melodies fast and furiously. Something new. Something different, finally. Something hoped for.

The clouds dissipated almost entirely, becoming only thin wisps of gold in an otherwise clear sky. The storm was gone. Somehow Jaina knew that it would be fine. It would never truly come to pass.

The song turned into a low, reverent hymn.

Jaina stopped swimming. She bobbed up and down in the calming waves and said, “I’d like to wake up now.”

And with reluctance, she felt something let her go. Like a child being asked to let a sibling have a turn with their favorite toy. Petulant, but still obedient.

She woke to warmth again, though this one was decidedly drier. Just like her mouth. And her eyes. Jaina felt it would be a struggle to open either, but there were cool, soft sheets beneath her, and something warm and heavy on her abdomen. She was pretty certain this wasn’t just another dream. There had been so many. So strange, floating and floating in that tepid sea.

So for that reason, she chanced opening her eyes. The warm weight on her was Sylvanas, asleep in a chair, slumped over Jaina’s stomach and left arm. She wasn’t dressed in her armor, but instead in a rumpled officer’s uniform with the top buttons of the jacket half undone. One of her hands rested atop Jaina's, covered in bandages.

She looked exhausted, even as she slept. One long eyebrow was haphazardly bent into Jaina’s side in a way she knew would be difficult to correct in the morning. And it was night. Evening. The room was lit by stark white magelight, but a high window showed a dark sky. It was so bright. Everything was so white. Where was this?

A hospital. Surely this was a hospital.

The fog of her dreams began to make way for reality in earnest. She’d fallen into the Sunwell. Well, Kael’thas had pushed her. And Sylvanas and the rangers had saved her. They’d pulled her out. She’d come to briefly on the floor of the sanctum chamber, but had since been asleep. How long? How long for Sylvanas to be so worried, so drained?

Jaina took a silent inventory of herself. She felt bandages against her own skin, but less than she could see on Sylvanas. No doubt she’d insisted that she was healed last and least effectively, just like always.

Jaina smiled again, and thought that she might find someone to bring her water before she had any more fond thoughts. Her lips would thank her for it.

Otherwise, though, she didn’t feel all that badly injured. She knew she’d been burned. They all had, going in after her. From the look of this place, this was a ward, in which there were other beds, separated by curtains. Jaina’s own curtain was slightly pulled back, open to a corridor between hers and another row of beds. Were the others here then, with her? Were they hurt?

Jaina stirred, but didn’t want to wake Sylvanas. She looked so tired. She needed this rest, even if that position could hardly be comfortable.

But thankfully, she didn’t need to get up. Just as she started to slowly move and make sure that she was indeed able to, Vereesa and Lirath appeared in the gap of the curtain, Vereesa holding a chair and Lirath a pale blue blanket.

“Jaina?” Lirath asked, yes, asked, as he dropped the blanket.

“Can I have that tea?” Jaina managed to croak out. “I’m so thirsty.”

“Holy fuck,” was Vereesa’s repsonse to that.

“I…is something wrong?” Jaina asked them.

“I--I don’t know. How are you? How are you feeling?” Lirath deflected, reaching back down for the dropped blanket, but still not taking his eyes off her.

“I’m fine, I think?” Jaina told them. “Trying to get my bearings. Is everyone okay? I remember a little. They went in after me.”

“They’re fine,” Vereesa blurted out. “Everything is fine. I’m uh…here, Lirath. Give her the tea. I’m going to get Liadrin.”

Lirath took the tea, remarkably not spilling it on himself as he did, and approached as Vereesa ran off down the corridor. Sylvanas, to her credit, slept on throughout all of this, her breath warm against the thin sheets that covered Jaina.

She slept even as she slid down when Jaina sat up to ask, “Everything isn’t fine, is it?”

“I am pretty sure everything is fine if you’re asking that, but um, some things might be different, but still fine,” Lirath explained as he handed her the tea.

Fine or not, she took a greedy sip from the mug that was still probably a bit too hot. Elven tea was awful, really, but any liquid was welcome at this point, even if it was too floral for her taste and a bit too hot for her chapped lips.

Jaina wasn’t sure what he could be referencing. Her hands obviously worked fine. They looked the same, save for a few bandages. She wore soft white hospital robes, and felt a heavy thud against her chest as she propped herself up more. Jaina looked down to find Sylvanas’ feather pendant resting there, having been on display for all to see. Well, maybe that was what was different.

But no, that wouldn’t make Lirath stare at her like he’d just seen a ghost.

“Lirath, can you just tell me? Please?” Jaina asked after taking another sip.

“So needy. You’re still you then. Thank the sun. Sylvanas would have been inconsolable for a good century, and I was hardly prepared to deal with that,” he noted, laughing as he draped the blanket over his sleeping sister, then weaved a rune with both hands--good, good progress--and conjured a simple hand mirror into existence.

He floated the mirror over toward Jaina so she could see herself in it. She looked back at her own reflection with a face unchanged except for one thing. Her eyes were glowing back at her, effused with arcane blue, just like the ones that Lirath stared back at her with.

She checked her ears, then laughed as she discovered they were still rounded and human. She didn’t know if she could quite comprehend being fully transformed into an elf, rather than just living amongst them, so that was for the best.

But no, she was still herself. Still just Jaina Proudmoore. Before, her eyes would glow as mages did when they cast spells, but now that arcane power was a permanent fixture of her face. She supposed it made sense, considering what had happened to her. So she just laughed. And it hurt a little to laugh, but it felt good.

It was this that finally woke Sylvanas from where she slept against Jaina’s thigh.

“Jaina?” she said groggily, staring upwards with her own glowing eyes, blue as well but tinged with a soft grey tone. And then, as she roused, “Jaina!”

Sylvanas sat up, pushing aside the floating mirror and immediately wrapping Jaina in a tight embrace. The mug of tea trapped between them sloshed a bit on both of their clothing, but Jaina didn’t mind, and she was certain Sylvanas didn’t either.

“You’re okay? You’re okay.”

The first was a question, the second a statement as Jaina kept laughing even in the embrace.

“I’m fine,” she eventually recovered enough to ensure Sylvanas, snaking her free hand from between them to wrap around her back. “Your brother was just showing me my new feature.”

“The Sunwell didn’t make you sprout ears though, so I’m quite disappointed,” Lirath noted with a chuckle of his own. “I’m still going to need to learn human body language and I'm mildly annoyed about it.”

“Sorry to disappoint,” Jaina said, laughing into Sylvanas’ hair.

The Ranger General, for all it was worth, didn’t let go of her. She didn’t seem to care who might see or what they might think. All of that was gone now. There was just Sylvanas, clearly very tired but so, so happy to see her awake, clinging to her as if she intended to never let Jaina out of her arms again.

And Jaina was certain she’d be just fine with that arrangement.

“Vereesa tells me Jaina is awake?” asked a deep voice from somewhere past Sylvanas’ head that Jaina couldn’t see. Liadrin, no doubt.

And that was confirmed as she came in and unceremoniously pried Sylvanas from Jaina in order to examine her patient, with a mutter of, “You can have her back in a few minutes.”

Sylvanas got the hint and let go, shaking her head and laughing to herself as she watched Liadrin lean in to peer at Jaina.

“So I see this is still happening,” Liadrin gestured to her eyes. “I thought it might stop, but it may also be permanent. Hmm.”

“How long have I been asleep?” Jaina ventured to ask.

“Two days,” Liadrin reported nonchalantly, as if she expected as much. Jaina felt a spark of holy magic from her as Liadrin prodded her own arcane. Testing. Questioning. “As you might have guessed, Sylvanas insisted that you be healed over herself. The others too. The Light heals the body using a combination of the healer’s energy and your own, though. I expected you to sleep longer, honestly. But you’re a stubborn little thing, aren’t you?”

Thinking on it, Jaina reached out tentatively with her own magic, brushing up against Liadrin and the general mingling of arcane that surrounded the elves of Quel’thalas. Her magic felt no different, no stronger or weaker for all she’d been through. For all she didn’t know was real or not real as to what she’d felt and dreamed.

“You seem no worse for wear, though,” Liadrin assured her. “Besides the eyes. But I am honestly not sure. We don’t make a regular habit of throwing humans into the Sunwell.”

“Could’ve fooled me,” Jaina joked, taking another sip of her now mostly spilled and lukewarm tea.

Sylvanas’ ears fell at this, clearly ashamed that things had even happened this way at all. And she’d warned Jaina too, that Kael’thas had to have had some plan for her, some selfish motivation as his reason behind introducing them that day in Dalaran. Jaina assumed as much as well, but didn’t think it would involve killing her of all things.

Perhaps that wasn’t the reason. Perhaps he hadn’t meant to kill her or hurt her. But from the way everyone was looking at her, grateful that she was alive and guilty that they hadn’t done more to prevent her from being injured.

So maybe the joke wasn’t the best idea.

“I’m fine, really,” Jaina repeated for all of them. “At least I’m pretty sure. Thank you Liadrin, and please pass that along to anyone else who helped to heal me.”

“It’ll be a long list. I had just about every eager apprentice wanting to come in to get a look at you. I shooed most of them away. But I fear that if I don’t follow your case for a while, someone else will try to. So you’ll have to deal with me checking in on you for the long term to see if those eyes of yours are still glowing,” Liadrin noted. “Speaking of which, how are you feeling, really? Besides fine? Normal? The same as before? Anything strange or different at all?”

Jaina shook her head. In the wave of the air past her ears, she realized she was too hasty with her answer. Beyond it lay the faintest sound. A song. A song that was no longer dissonant or grating, but so soothing and normal that she had disregarded it as background noise. The Sunwell sang, and it sang now in a way that didn’t ring harsh and wrong, but was so right that it was hard to distinguish it from anything else.

That, though, would be difficult to explain. Maybe better for a follow up visit with Liadrin later. No doubt the priestess would love to talk about the entire philosophy of it all.

The dreams too. Those clouds. The mouth opened in a scream looked much like Sylvanas’ did as she frowned in concern, reaching for Jaina’s hand. But it wasn’t meant to be. Whatever it was wouldn’t come to pass. Jaina knew that for certain now.

For all of this--she needed time to think. Time to write it all down and understand it and perhaps not ever tell anyone about it. Certainly time to verify it wasn’t all just a fever dream fed to her by the chemical by-products of a healing body.

No, now was not the time, so Jaina said, “No different,” even though she knew it wasn’t entirely true. “Hungry,” she added after further thought.

Liadrin chuckled at that, then turned to pass behind the curtain again. “I’ll find you something to eat."

There she was exchanged for Vereesa, who peeked in just as she left. “Lirath,” she said to her brother. “If Jaina is truly alright then, I think maybe you and I should go um, get a snack or something.”

“Oh, I’m not hungry,” Lirath answered with a wave. “Rommath had one of his apprentices bring us lunch back at--”

“We’re getting a snack,” Vereesa insisted with a cough, grabbing him and offering a wink to her sister as she dragged their brother beyond the curtain.

Sylvanas just laughed weakly after them as she watched them go. She turned to Jaina, but didn’t look up at her, only down to her hand, which she held with both of her bandaged ones.

“Why didn’t you let them finish healing you?” Jaina asked her after a moment. Her own hands were free of bandages. She could only feel a few remaining on her legs. “You never do.”

“The others were more important,” Sylvanas answered, counting along Jaina’s fingers with the tips of her own. “Everyone is fine, by the way. They’re probably all sleeping. Liadrin’s keeping them for observation mostly. Or so she says. I think she just had a hard time convincing anyone to leave before you woke up.”

“Will you let Liadrin heal you now that I’m awake?” Jaina continued to prod. “Please?”

Sylvanas chuckled. Still a weak and woozy thing, as if she was the one waking from a too long sleep just now. “I suppose, if she’ll agree to it.”

“I’m certain she’ll insist on it,” Jaina told her.

“With both of you to nag me about it? Probably. I was just…I was worried,” Sylvanas said. She stopped fidgeting for a moment, and held Jaina’s hand tight in hers. “I was scared.”

These words seemed hard enough for her to say. Her with her usual quick wit and silver tongue. Giving first person voice to emotion didn’t come quickly or wittily. Gone was the veneer of confidence and swagger. Instead, there was just a small elf in a messy military uniform, eyes smudged with runny kohl, hair for once not hidden under her hood, but messy and returning to what Jaina now knew to be its natural waviness for lack of care.

An imperfect and inelegant side of Sylvanas Windrunner that not many people ever got to see. And Jaina loved her all the same for it. She did. She really did.

So she could be patient enough to wait for the day that Sylvanas might tell her the same.

“It’s all right,” Jaina told her, returning the squeeze. “I’m all right. My eyes just glow now. I wonder if I’ll be able to see in the dark like you do. That might be useful.”

Sylvanas laughed low again, shaking her head at the ridiculousness of it all. From one angle or another, Jaina might have thought she saw the shimmer of tears in her eyes, but didn’t say anything. No, right now it would be better not to say much at all.

For a moment, they just sat in silence together. Alive and themselves. All that they could ask for, all things considered. More, Jaina thought, as she ran her thumb across the backs of Sylvanas’ fingers, than apparently could be expected.

She couldn’t shake this feeling that this world of theirs, this life and future they were trying to make, was a thing borrowed. A thing not guaranteed. A possibility one wouldn’t bet the odds on if it were a horse race or a card game. But it had happened. They had survived. They had made it to one another, despite the trials of their lives. It was all real, and it was theirs.

Liadrin came in not long after, interrupting this grateful silence with a bowl of steaming soup, a plate of spiced crackers, and a sunfruit already peeled and separated into wedges. Certainly not the most elegant or exotic meal that Jaina had enjoyed in her time in Quel’thalas, but definitely the one she’d been the most hungry for.

“I wonder if you’ll develop our appetite,” Liadrin pondered as she watched Jaina scrape at the remains of her soup with one of the crackers. “Sorry to be so oddly clinical about this, but you have to understand that you’re now a very interesting medical study. A singular case, as it were.”

“All my life, I’ve been a singular case,” Jaina told her, gesturing to her hair, which was still streaked with the same stark white that her last over-exposure to the arcane had given her. She was pretty sure no more white had been added to it at least, but that would require more than a two second gawk at herself to truly determine. “I’m used to it.”

“That will probably serve you well,” Liadrin noted with a sage nod. “Do you remember what happened? You don’t have to talk about it if it’s too much, I’m just curious.”

Jaina had, at least, a mouthful of cracker to use as an excuse to dwell on her answer. At the end of it, she decided that, for now, a brief bout of honesty would be enough for Sylvanas and Liadrin. Details could come later, once she’d had time to cement them in her own mind properly, that is.

“I remember,” she answered, her tongue still tingling pleasantly from the spice. She was getting used to that at least, all the heat that elves preferred to season their food with. “Kael’thas pushed me. You dove in after me at some point and pulled me out, but I don’t remember much of that. Just that I woke for a bit and passed out again before you brought me here, I suppose. What did you do with him?”

She’d directed her last question to Sylvanas more than Liadrin, as she knew that this was no doubt the second half of the reason behind her haggard appearance. She knew from their brief clashes with the Amani that there was no way that Sylvanas would stand for anyone hurting any of her rangers. It wouldn’t have mattered then if it was Jaina who was pushed or any of the others. She would not have stopped until she got justice for any and all of them.

Sylvanas finally looked up at her properly as she answered, “He’s been detained. Him and Dar’khan and some apprentices of theirs who we believed showed up too late to help, but were meant to be asked to subdue us. Why Kael’thas didn’t wait for them is beyond me, but he’s not talking, nor is Dar’khan. Lor’themar and I have questioned them. An apprentice had a bit of information for us today, but to no one’s surprise, his royal highness didn’t think his men worthy enough to share his plans with, or something.”

Liadrin grunted her displeasure at this, obviously hearing it for the first time. Jaina thought it pretty safe to assume she hadn’t left the infirmary since the squadron was brought there.

“I don’t know why,” Jaina told her. “Nor could you imagine that I would be a willing participant in whatever he was trying. I knew Kael’thas to be eccentric and, well, insistent, but I didn’t think he’d try to kill me about it.”

“Nor did I,” Sylvanas confessed. “I thought he wanted to get an excuse to court you or to use you as some sort of leverage for instilling his magisters in my military. If I’d known--”

“Don’t,” Jaina stopped her reaching from the hand that had reluctantly let her go to eat only a few minutes before. “Don’t blame yourself for this. I won’t allow it. None of us knew. You couldn’t have known.”

“It’s my job to know these things, Jaina. My job is to protect this land and my rangers,” Sylvanas told her.

“And you did just that, against whatever the hell he was doing,” Jaina assured. “I’m alive. He’s in jail. I presume the Sunwell is fine too?”

“So they say,” Liadrin answered with a shrug. “Apparently quite a few of the magisters were particularly concerned about that at first, but assured us everything is normal there.”

“But not any of the priests?” Jaina wondered.

Liadrin offered a smug smile to that. “The priests would know if something were wrong without having to run tests and analyze samples. Belore’s Light still fills the well and my heart. It healed your burns. So, everything is fine.”

But the song had changed. Didn’t any of them hear it? Even now, it was almost like a soft lullaby being sung to the child in the house across the street. Distant but sweet. Bidding Jaina to recognize her own weariness and just sleep. Sleep a little while longer. Rest her well-earned rest.

Or maybe this was what they all heard, what they all felt. Jaina wasn’t sure if she had become attuned or had been the attuner. Perhaps it had been a little of both. It certainly felt that way.

But though she was tired and still a little hungry, and her legs were finally beginning to let her know that they were a bit sore--she felt great. Really good, honestly. Strangely good.

Jaina shook that thought from her head again. It was still too surreal to comprehend. Instead, she focused on the practical. She was a mage still. She would very much like to run tests and analyze samples and research and understand. So at the very least, she could pick apart the man that was Prince Kael’thas, and why he might have lured her to his kingdom only to push her into the Sunwell.

“Kael was always curious about the orcs. Antonidas despised him on principle, so he refused to have him work with us on the resettlement project. But ever since I’d been regularly coming back to Dalaran again, he was always there, always dogging me and asking about them. About their magic and their runes,” Jaina recalled. “I told him what I knew, but also that I knew the Kirin Tor had decided to ban the study of fel magic after the Second War. He knew this too, of course, but he kept asking, even when I told him that their own shamans had done the same.”

“I’m not sure if you noticed, but Dar’khan had a crystal with him that day,” Sylvanas told her. “According to my brother and Magister Rommath, its magic is fel in nature.”

“I just thought it an odd interest,” Jaina said, nodding to herself at the realization. “Especially when Kael’thas had been one of those responsible for ousting Archmage Kel’thuzad from the Kirin Tor when it was discovered he was practicing necromancy a few years ago. Why would he care so much about one forbidden magic if he was so against another?”

“He had something to gain from it, surely. But we didn’t let him have it,” Sylvanas concluded. Her gaze burned with a miniscule, guttering flame of anger, like a candle about to sputter out. Her brow furrowed deeply and she looked down at her and Jaina’s intertwined hands again.

She really needed to go back to sleep. Hopefully the Sunwell was singing this sweetly for her too.

“I’m sure he will grace us all with his master plan soon enough,” Liadrin assured them both as she began to clear the now bare tray she’d set in front of Jaina not but a few minutes ago. “Kael’thas loves to talk about himself too much to stay silent for long. Until then, or until anyone else wants to tell us otherwise, I don’t see any reason to waste energy speculating.”

She seemed to know that that suggestion would fall on especially deaf ears, rounded and elven alike in this room, but offered it with her usual righteous confidence anyway. Mostly, perhaps, because she knew that neither Sylvanas or Jaina would bother to argue with her.

Jaina had since learned that there were better things to do with her time than to try to convince Liadrin of anything that lay outside of her beliefs.

Jaina had also learned to watch elven ears at any given point, as they’d hear things before she could. Both Sylvanas’ and Liadrin’s perked moments before she could hear the shuffling of footsteps in the corridor. Lots of footsteps. A few shushes. A giggle. And then, a song. Slow and sweet and sonorous as it flowed from several voices.

“Oh, here we go,” Liadrin said with a sigh. “I woke Valeera up on my way back in and now they’re all up and singing.”

Sylvanas’ lips fell into a wide, sleepy grin. “It’s Thalasdiel tradition. Just because we’re paused here for a while doesn’t mean that the singing stops.”

“I suppose it doesn’t,” Liadrin sighed, setting the tray aside to stand up and open the curtain.

Elf after elf came into view, most still in their own white hospital robes, some with various bandages covering burns that were taking more time to heal. The whole rest of the squadron from little Valeera grinning ear to ear, downright tiny outside of her armor but no less fierce, to the old veteran Captain Autumnsong, looking just about as beat up as Sylvanas, but just about as happy as her to see Jaina awake again. But that wasn’t all. Even Vereesa had been roped in to join them in her Ranger uniform, and Lirath too was offering the lone tenor to their song in the back. Liadrin shook her head at them, but joined in the song too with her own deep voice.

It was one Jaina hadn’t heard yet. One she thought, from listening to the words, that she might have been meant to hear at the end of their Thalasdiel. Or one maybe, that she might have hoped Sylvanas would sing to her one day when she’d hopefully find it easier to talk about her feelings with Jaina. Maybe someday soon.

And despite it all, the exhaustion and confusion and tears of the last hour, Sylvanas did just that, turning to Jaina as she joined in on the chorus,

“I know a place where your heart can be safe, And you’ve said your last goodbye.”

#Sylvanas Windrunner #Jaina Proudmoore #sylvaina #fanfic #in good company #sorry about the wait on this one #this is the third time i've written this chapter and i'm still not 100% on it #but i ain't doing it again #also this fic deserves to stay mostly happy instead of me hamfisting sylvanas having an anger issue in at the 11th hour

[lokiondisneyplus]

Yes, Loki series director Kate Herron knows about your fan theory about the show, the analysis you posted to social media. No, she won’t tell you what she thinks about it, or whether you were right.

“I follow all the conversations on Twitter,” Herron told Polygon in an interview shortly after Loki’s season 1 finale. “I don’t always weigh in on them, because I made the show, so they don’t want me weighing in like, ‘Actually, guys…’ I think that’s the whole point of art — it should be up for debate and discussion.”

[Ed. note: Spoilers ahead for season 1 of Loki.]

Loki has been a hit for streaming service Disney Plus — episode 6 of the show, the final installment for this season, was reportedly watched by more households than any of the platform’s MCU finales to date. The series has been a popular source of fan conjecture and argument, with one particularly big rolling conversation focusing on whether the budding romantic relationship between trickster Asgardian Loki (Tom Hiddleston) and his alternate-universe counterpart Sylvie (Sophia Di Martino) is a form of incest.

Herron is willing to speak up about that one. “My interpretation of it is that they’re both Lokis, but they aren’t the same person,” she says. “I don’t see them as being like brother and sister. They have completely different backgrounds […] and I think that’s really important to her character. They sort of have the same role in terms of the universe and destiny, but they won’t make the same decisions.”

Herron says thematically, Loki falling for Sylvie is an exploration of “self-love,” but only in the sense that it’s Loki learning to understand his own motives and integrity. “[The show is] looking at the self and asking ‘What makes us us?’” Herron says. “I mean, look at all the Lokis across the show, they’re all completely different. I think there’s something beautiful about his romantic relationship with Sylvie, but they’re not interchangeable.”

Directing the final kiss between the two characters was a complicated process because it had to communicate something about each of them over the course of just a few seconds. Herron says the primary goal was creating a safe, comfortable environment for Hiddleston and Di Martino, and after that, she had to think about how to bring across Loki and Sylvie’s conflicting goals in that moment.

“It’s an interesting one, right?” she says. “Emotionally, from Sylvie’s perspective, I think it’s a goodbye. But it’s still a buildup of all these feelings. They’ve both grown through each other over the last few episodes. It was important to me that it didn’t feel like a trick, like she was deceiving him. She is obviously doing that, on one hand, but I don’t feel the kiss is any less genuine. I think she’s in a bad place, but her feelings are true.”

Herron says directing Hiddleston in the scene mostly came down to discussing the speech Loki gives Sylvie before the kiss. “That was really important, showing this new place for Loki,” Herron says. “In the first episode, he’s like, ‘I want the throne, I want to rule,’ and by episode 6, he isn’t focused on that selfish want. He just wants her to be okay.”

Loki writer and producer Eric Martin recently tweeted that he wished the show had been able to focus more time on two of its secondary characters, Owen Wilson’s Time Variance Authority agent Mobius M. Mobius, and Gugu Mbatha-Raw’s Ravonna Renslayer. “I wanted to explore her more deeply and really see their relationship,” he says, “But covid got in the way and we just didn’t have time.”

Asked if Loki and Sylvie’s relationship suffered from similar necessary edits, Herron says it’s true that the show’s creators and audience still don’t know everything Sylvie went through to make her so different from the Marvel Cinematic Universe’s original version of Loki. “We’ve seen her as a child, but she’s lived for thousands and thousands of years, in apocalypses on the run,” she says. “I think there’s so much more to delve into with Sylvie […] You’re filling in the blanks. You see [her on the planet] Lamentis, and it’s horrific. And you’re like, “Well, what kind of person would she be, growing up in apocalypses? What kind of personality would that give her?”

Herron says Sylvie’s backstory actually reminds her of the 1995 movie Jumanji, where a young boy is sucked into a magical board game in 1969, and emerges 26 years later as a full-grown man, played by with typical manic energy by Robin Williams. “It’s such a weird reference, but…” she says. “He’s a little boy when he ends up captive in that game, and when he comes out, it’s obviously been a life experience. With Sylvie, it’s similar. She was a child when she had to go on the run, so she’s had a very difficult life. I would love to see more of it. As Eric said, she’s a rich character, there’s so much to be explored.”

Herron says, though, that during her time on the show, material about Sylvie was added rather than cut — specifically, those scenes of her as a child, being kidnapped by the TVA. “This was before my time, but I know in the writers’ room, there were lots of avenues exploring Sylvie on the run and what her life was like,” Herron says. “I wouldn’t want to speak more to those, because I wasn’t there when they were being discussed. But something wasn’t in there that was important to me — I felt we should see her [history] in the TVA. Me and the team were talking about how it made complete sense, because episode 4 is all about twisting the idea that the TVA might be good on its head. And so that’s something that came in later, once I joined, was seeing her as a child. I think we needed to see that, not to understand her completely, but to get an idea of her motivations, why she’s so angry at this place.”

Talking more broadly about the series finale, Herron says the last few episodes weren’t as heavily referential as the first episodes, which she intended as “a love letter to sci-fi.” While early images like the TVA’s interrogation rooms had specific visual references from past science fiction, episode 6’s locations were drawn more from collaborations with the crew.

“The idea of the physical timeline being circular, our storyboard artists came up with that,” Herron says. “I had in the scripts, ‘We move through space to the end of time,” and then me and [storyboard artist Darrin Denlinger] discussed how we could play with the idea of time, while also adding MCU nods. He was like, ‘What if the timeline is circular?’ I think that’s such a striking image, like the Citadel at the End of Time is the needle on a record player. I just thought that was such a cool image, but it wasn’t necessarily taken from anything.”

Episode 6 focuses heavily on the mysterious figure He Who Remains and his citadel, a space she says was largely conceived by production designer Kasra Farahani. “I remember he brought in the art of the Citadel, and I thought it was beautiful,” Herron says. “He said, ‘The Citadel has been carved from an actual meteorite,’ which I thought was such an inspired idea. And He Who Remains’ office is the only finished portion of it.”

She says there are only a few direct homages in episode 6, including the zoom shot through space, which directly referenced a similar sequence in Robert Zemeckis’ 1997 film Contact.

“And then I have my Teletubbies reference for episode 5,” Herron says. “I wanted the Void to feel like an overgrown garden, like a kind of forgotten place. And I realized I’d pitched it as the British countryside. I remember trying to explain it to ILM, who did the visual effects, and saying, ‘Oh, you know, it’s like the Teletubbies. It’s just rolling hills, but they go on forever.’ That actually was quite a helpful reference in the end, which is funny.”

Asked for her favorite set memory from shooting the season, Herron says it comes down to Tom Hiddleston starting a mania for physical exertion before takes. “Sometimes he runs around set to get himself in the right mindset before he performs,” she says. “He does pushups. You know, you’re going into an action scene, you want to look like you’ve just been running. And it became infectious across all the cast. We’ve got so much footage of — I think Jack [Veal] ended up doing it, who plays Kid Loki. I’ve got [shots of] him and Sophia doing pushups and squats, just to get ready. It was so funny watching that echo across all the cast. I think all of them ended up doing those exercises with him at some point. It was so funny.”

“That might be my favorite set story, but it’s honestly, not a sweet one,” she adds. “I would say my favorite thing is his enthusiasm. He’s a very kind empathetic person. We were filming this in quite tough circumstances, a lot of people were far from home and isolating, and he brought this warmth and energy and joy to the set every day. And I think that made everyone feel very safe and very bonded. I’m forever grateful to him for doing that.”

#Kate Herron #Loki #Sylvie #Tom Hiddleston #owen wilson

[travellingarmy]

║Kaeya║Goodbye Kiss

Gender-neutral.

Angst.

Word count: 1.7k

---

It is time..

He had fulfilled his duties as a spy and so, it was time for the rightful heir to the throne to return to his home, Khaenri'ah. However, he guilts the thought of going back. In the beginning, he only had one reason of lingering around Mondstadt for a while but now that that he was done, there was really nothing left holding him back to return. So, why is he wavering?

His eyes- both visible- stare at the oh so familiar ceiling of your home. He had grown to love the sight of it over the years. His eyes seemed to sparkle in the night, a hand behind his head. Those eyes if his had always been unique and mysterious apropos to others one would meet along the way. It held a secret that makes one so interested in the soon-to-be former Cavalry Captain, but they could never unveil the truth behind them-- not even you.

Not even you who lay beside him bare and snuggled against him, a hand on his chest. Not even you who was most closest to the knight. If you couldn't do that, who could?

You made a sound during your sleep, gaining the attention of the man. His eyes glistened upon landing sight on you. His heart raced at everything you do. He was happy with you, but he also bitterly blames you for being the reason he was hesitating. Why did you go make such a man fall for you? No, what was it about him that made you fall into his arms? Surely, you could see just how scary those eyes of his, right?

Honestly, you were the first to approach him knowing the darkness that he had carried since young. You dare not question what his past was or where he came from. You openly loved him, but he was going to be your heartache.

If only, he thought, if only he didn't fall into the hole you had made, he would leave Mondstadt all behind without looking back. When did he trip? Was it the first glance of you? There was really something about your eyes that intrigued the male.. Yeah, that was probably it. Something in your eyes shone something he had not seen in himself. Your eyes were free of hidden motives and your quick-witted actions proved that.

Maybe, he was interested because he felt jealous of you. Jealous that you didn't have to carry a burden of a task since young. Maybe he had gotten close to you to take that glimmer in your eyes. After all, he was a man with ulterior motives, no?

Ah, that did no good to Kaeya. He tried to convince himself over and over that there was something he wanted to take from you but as you lay bare beside him, he felt himself at a loss.

You mumbled in your sleep, once more making sounds to gain the attention of the male. Whatever you were dreaming about, it obviously was a pleasant one. He chuckles lowly and put his free hand behind the back of your head, moving you closer to his lips so he could place a kiss on the crown of your head.

"I love you."

-

The clacking of hurried heels and boots greet you upon entering the headquarters. It was early in the morning but everyone was jolted awake and masked with a stern look, brows furrowing as they rush past you.

You knew what was happening. Otherwise, you would still be lazily getting out of bed. "Acting Grand Master," you greet the blonde whose back was facing you. The call of her title brought her attention from another knight to you. "(Y/N), I'm so glad you're here. Have you seen Kaeya?"

Indeed, you have seen Kaeya. Hoewever, it was just a glimpse before your tired eyes fluttered shut for another hour. "No, I haven't." Jean sighs but did not dwell on the thought of the captain. "Well, we'll just pray to Barbatos that he comes soon. We need all the hands to protect the city from the Abyss."

Something inside you churned. Something was calling out to you that you failed to listen. What is it? Why was dread washing over you at the thought of Kaeya? Surely, he would be fine to take on a couple Abyss mages and hilichurls, right? Well, it doesn't matter. Even if he can take down a whole army, you should still be by his side, fighting with him.

Not waiting for orders from the Acting Grand Master, you made a bolt towards the gate. Jean shouted your name but you ignored it as that churning feeling grew inside you. "Kaeya.."

The entirety of Mondstadt was surrounded at all fronts. All sorts of Abyss mages and hilichurls attacked like savages, using this chance to take down the city while the rest of the troops were still coming their way.

Your eyes darted around, hoping to see the Cavalry Captain somewhere amongst the many men who were trying to by more time for backup to come.

You bit your lips, drawing out the blood to trickle down. Where in Teyvat is Kaeya when you needed him most? It wasn't the time for him to go drinking in a bar, getting wasted.

Not wanting to waste more time dwelling on the thought, you took the lead, running past the other knights and heading deeper into the battle. "Captain!" A knight had called your title but you dare not turn around. Something was telling you that Kaeya was further in, and you were going tl follow it. Knowing Kaeya, it does sound like him for him to rush before anybody else. "Please, Kaeya.. Please be okay."

Clearing any enemies in your way, you felt your heart become lighter at the sight a his familiar back, but you dare not break into a smile. It would just make you lose your focus on the fight.

"Kaeya!" You called, but that failed to reach his ears amongst the chaos around. You were drawing near, noticing that the army started to grow thin in the back.

You were about to call him a second time but the words got stuck in your throat, seeing that the male was talking to an Abyss mage. It confused you. Why is the Abyss mage bowing to Kaeya? Why isn't it attacking Kaeya?

The mage looks up, eyes looking past Kaeya and onto you. "Your highness, behind you," the mage gestures him to look behind. Wait, did the mage call him 'your highness'?

Kaeya turned around to look at you, revealing you both of his eyes that held no warmth as usual when they laid upon you. You were stoned into the spot, mouth feeling dry. What were you supposed to say at this point? Your head dizzied, wanting to collapse on the ground for support.

When your silence was prolonging further activities, his eyes narrowed coldly and his mouth drew a wider frown of displeasure. "(Y/N), what are you doing here?" His voice was montoned and no longer spoke in a flirtatious manner.

The mystery behind his eyes were revealed to you; the mystery that all of Mondstadt wanted to know yet could not get close enough to know.

You gulped back the lump that grew. Surely, there is some misunderstanding, right? Kaeya just wanted to toy with the mage before he killed it, right? Yeah, that has to be it. "K, Kaeya, Acting Grand Master wants you back and help protect Mondstadt.." Your eyes slightly widen in desperation, searching for the truth.

"Oh? Does she now?" A smirk tug his lips yet his eyes stayed the same. He turns his full body to face you and rested his knuckle on his hip. He was toying with you. "Y, yeah.. You better get back before she gets mad at you."

Kaeya chuckles at the look in your eyes, knowing that look all too well. "Why should I go back? I'm not from here so I have no reason to protect it." He shakes his head, all the while smiling. "(Y/N), I'm sure you already know that I am not from here, yes?"

"Where are you going with this, Kaeya? Please stop playing around and come back," you spoke with a shaky voice.

His smile drops. Were you seriously trying to convince yourself that he was a good man? He sighs and walks close to you, grabbing your chin in his hands. "Oh, (Y/N), you could be so cute at times. It almost makes me want to take you with me," his words were sincere. "But the land of sinners is not a place to call home for someone like you. So, be good and listen to when I say to stay." A flick of sorrow failed to catch your eyes.

Kaeya had not slept that night, waiting for the sun to shine through the curtains to tell him that it was time. As much as he wanted to stay with you, he was a sinner who ruled a land abandoned by the gods. He had no place in Mondstadt- with you- knowing his origins.

A tear slipped from the corner of your eyes, but Kaeya did not dare to wipe it away in fear that his heart would waver.

"Be good.. Protect Mondstadt.." He shows you one last genuine smile that you loved. His eyes allowed itself to show you his true feelings for you once more as well which just made your heart squeeze itself.

He brings your face, your lips, close to his. He was giving you one last kiss. A kiss that you would miss for as long as you lived. A goodbye kiss.

Tears left your eyes as he deepened the cherishing kiss.

He soon pulls away, watching your tears fall silently onto the ground. He smiles and turns on his heels to walk away, the Abyss mage following close behind him.

Your legs gave in and fell onto the ground as you watch the man you loved walk away from you-- never to return to Mondstadt-- to you.

Kaeya dares not to look behind. If he did, he had a feeling that he'll run up and hug you to stop those tears of yours. This was goodbye.

"Forget me and find someone else, lest you will be broken."

---

#kaeya x reader #kaeya alberich #kaeya #kaeya oneshots #kaeya angst #genshin angst #angst #genshin impact oneshots #genshin impact angst #genshin x reader #gender neutral #genshin impact #genshin impact x reader #x reader

[lovebecomeshim]

hello! your zutara posting today has finally motivated me to ask this question because I came to atla very late(last year, to be specific) and I Love It Very Much but am 1000% out of the loop as far as why what remains of fandom (at least that I've seen among my friends) is so very strongly zutara. I'm not opposed to it per se I just don't really know what has driven it to apparently be such a popular ship? can you help me understand and maybe convert me a little bit?

Hey!! Your ICON! :D I can try but I’m not sure how coherent I’ll be; however I AM sure someone a lot more competent will be willing to add to this. Either way, I’m glad you asked because my plan was to drag down as many people as possible with me.

*smacks the hood of zutara* this baby can fit so much mutual love and support!

This got so long, I’m so sorry. I don’t know how to put it under a cut on mobile and it already got deleted once so I’m scared to mess with it lol. Moving on.

I’m gonna start this with a disclaimer that im on mobile so formatting is tricky and I’m also really new to atla in that I only completed my first watch through in like 2019??? So some of my info is all just based on what I’ve picked up from Discourse 👀 so anyway the sparknotes version: zutara was wildly popular from the beginning. To the point where the atla crew internally disagreed on which ship should be endgame. (Ex. Bryke [showrunners] asked the writers to rewrite The Southern Raiders to make Zuko seem less ideal for Katara than Aang [which failed, depending on who you ask]; the animation team purposefully created a visual parrallel between Oma and Shu in the Cave of Two Lovers and Zuko and Katara in the catacombs under Ba Sing Se in the Crossroads of Destiny; etc.)

The ship was popular enough that Bryke actually chose to display zk fanart at a con for the sole purpose of mocking the fans, but that’s neither here nor there. The entire episode Ember Island Players, while a love letter to/parody of the whole show, was an opportunity to address zutara’s viability as a canon pairing (while, again, mocking zutaras for romanticizing that catacombs scene). Point is! It’s always been popular but with it not being endgame, there’s got to be something that’s given it staying power.

And that’s honestly got to do with three things: their dynamic, thematic cohesion, and potential.

(You know what... you know what, it’s four things. The fourth is they’re so aesthetically pleasing together and individually. Like, they’re just good looking people [specifically when they’re grown but they’re also cute kids] and that absolutely doesn’t hurt) (but it’s not the Point, it’s just nice to point out sometimes)

The dynamic is hard to get into without also looking at the canon pairings, but I think I can do that without unnecessary bashing. It’s just that part of the magic of zutara is really highlighted by what they give to each other that their other relationships don’t.

First off, it’s classic enemies to (would be) lovers. The absolute truest form of it. It’s not too different from how CS started out: a rogue antagonist with a job to do—but no personal vendetta against the future love interest—who is deeply and emotionally invested in his personal storyline (revenge/redemption) with little regard for how it effects other people after his entire life and genuine good nature are marred by suffering, and a fierce warrior girl with a strong moral compass and her own personal investment in stopping him (protect her family and save the world doing it). Obviously frustration and animosity grew between them by the nature of them being on opposing sides, but that just lends itself to the sweetness of their later reconciliation.

The thing is that while they’re wildly different on the surface (he’s a hot-headed prince of a fascist regime who is trying to capture the Avatar to please his father; she’s a nurturing daughter of the chief who is trying to protect and train the Avatar in order to topple his father’s throne) they find out that they have so much more in common both in their experiences and their personalities.

(What follows is an excessive use of the word “both” and I’m sorry about that)(I can edit it. I can do that. That IS an option............)

They both have an innate sense of justice that they are determined to see done (zuko, at the war meeting, sticking up for the Earth Kingdom kid when the guards torment his family, choosing not to steal from the pregnant couple despite his circumstances, abiding by his word to leave the SWT should Aang come willingly, etc.; katara, literally.... at any point). They both have pretty one-track minds at accomplishing certain goals once they’ve put their mind to it, regardless of a lack of support in that endeavor (it goes without saying I guess, but zuko’s entire hunt; katara’s determination to get the earth benders to fight back, her determination to absolutely destroy Pakku until he agrees to teach her, etc.). They both lost their mothers at young ages. Their worlds are war-torn and traumatizing to them both, if in different ways, but that ultimately forces them to grow up too quickly to be wholly independent individuals. They both have issues with their fathers (for WILDLY different reasons, but). They both hold extreme prejudices that they need to learn to overcome (which ties into thematic cohesion)(bit like Lizzie and Darcy in that way but magnified by a million). They’re both extremely emotional and empathetic—which can and often does result in loud outbursts. Katara’s a bit better adjusted and can temper her anger for longer than S1 Zuko can, but they both feel that anger deeply and have no compunctions expressing it (Katara is, usually, more justified, particularly in S1. Again, S1 Zuko is severely maladjusted but at the point when they could’ve feasibly become a couple, he’s so much better off with the way he carries himself). They both struggle with feelings of inferiority in their bending abilities when confronted with prodigal benders like Aang and Azula, but have the work ethic required to double down and become two of the most powerful benders in the three remaining nations. This is a little more minor but it is a parrallel that appeals to some shippers that they both have these alter egos in the Painted Lady (notably fire nation coded) and the Blue Spirit (water tribe coded) that are pretty different from who they are day-to-day and are useful in accomplishing a purpose that they as themselves cannot.

(I’m.... I just realized that this could potentially get very long. Should I have made a slide show with bullet points??????)

Anyway, similar. I know there’s more but there’s literally so much to love about zutara that I’ll drive myself a little crazy trying to compile all the ways they’re similar. (Just gonna say that at this exact moment I went back to add more similarities.... so okay then)

Once they’ve reconciled, we see how all of these things only lend themselves to a deeper intimacy together than they share with literally anyone else. There’s a steady partnership that positions them as the mom/dad of the gaang, while also providing the support necessary to allow the other to not have to carry so much responsibility. A lot of zutaras will point out how zuko is actually depicted doing the more domestic chores that are normally relegated to Katara once he joins the gaang, since the others in the group are two 12-year-olds and sokka. The one that sticks out the most is how he makes tea for the group and then serves them, while Katara is able to just relax with her friends around the fire. Fanon expands upon this a lot to Zuko helping with the laundry or the cooking or whatever else needs doing since he, as a once-refugee, is used to doing his own domestic tasks. Before Zuko joined, Katara was the one mothering everyone, sewing for them, cooking for them, etc. She’s always tending to the needs of the group, and that includes emotionally. She does the emotional labor for the gaang 99% of the time, but when she’s the one falling apart, she’s usually doing it alone and without the comfort that she normally provides for others. Until Zuko. And that’s before they’re even friends.

Which is WHY people romanticize the catacombs of Ba Sing Se so much. Katara is verbally attacking Zuko out of her own righteous anger but also her own prejudice when Zuko, surprisingly, chooses to be vulnerable with her. He’s been on a journey that’s opened his eyes a bit, but he’s never actively chosen to expose the rawest parts of his past to anyone. But for some reason he chooses to do that with Katara of all people. While she’s yelling at him. He sees her humanity, and for once can look past his prejudice and empathize with her. And this time, when she breaks down, she gets to be comforted. Katara normally talks about her mother when she’s trying to explain to someone else that she sees and understands they’re pain, as a form of comfort to them. Here, Zuko uses the exact same tactic. He sees her and he understands. And for zuko? He’s not being shut down. He’s allowed to articulate his pain regarding his mother without being ignored and made to internalize it, and he’s allowed to process how he feels about his scar out loud without being told that he deserved it. And then he lets her touch his scar, something we’ve seen him actively avoid before. He’s completely open to her and she’s completely open to him and all it took was one five minute conversation. She was about to use the little bit of Spirit water that she had, that she was saving for something Important, to heal the scar that still daily causes him pain just because they had, somehow, connected.

Plus there’s the whole parallel to the star-crossed lovers forbidden from one another, a war divides their people—

And then zuko messes up, he regresses, he gets what he wants and he HATES it. And the sense of justice he had as a child has been restored to him against his will and he can’t think of anything he wants to do more than the Right Thing, so he joins team avatar. Before he does that though, we get to see his relationship with Mai, which is where comparison really comes in. And what we see is Zuko, fresh off of his encounter with Katara in the catacombs, trying to be emotionally honest with Mai... and getting shut down and dismissed. Which is just how Mai is and it’s fine, but not for Zuko. Still, he keeps trying, and he keeps getting ignored or scoffed at or yelled at. Which is really a larger symbol for how he doesn’t fit in his old life anymore, but again that’s about thematic cohesion. He tries to articulate his anxieties about returning home, he tries to make romantic gestures, he tries to explain how morally conflicted he’s feeling—and Mai diverts to some kind of physical affection to shut him up and a parting comment that is pretty much always, in essence, “I don’t wanna talk about this.” So they don’t. On the other hand, once zuko and Katara are friends, we see him again emotionally distraught and caught up in his anxieties about facing Iroh, and it’s Katara who comes to him and listens to him and comforts and encourages him.

Similarly, we have Aang clamming up and getting uncomfortable whenever Katara shows any negative emotion, usually resulting in him making excuses or running away. Or, in the case of the Southern Raiders, lecturing her on how she needs to just let go of her anger about her mother’s murder. People have talked this episode to death and usually better than I ever could, so imma... keep it brief. There’s a serious disconnect between Aang and Katara in his ability to empathize with Katara and her needs that has her tamping down her vulnerability and amping up her anger. He tells her that he was able to forgive his people’s genocide and appa’s kidnapping (petnapping? Theft??), which is blatantly not true but also not an entirely equal parrallel to Katara’s situation, and continues making these little remarks throughout the episode. But it’s Zuko that Katara opens up to. It’s with him that she’s able to talk about the most traumatic day of her life, and it’s with him that she’s able to get the closure she needs, cementing their bond as friends and partners. This disagreement between Aang and Katara is then... never resolved. They just never bring it up and hear what the other is saying.

There’s a fic called The Portraits of Ember Island that has a line that so completely sums up the heart of the matter for why people love their dynamic. For context, zuko has woken up early to help Katara with the cooking and they spend the whole time just letting one another talk, and zuko stops to ask why she always just lets him talk. And so she stops to ask why he’s always helping, and it goes as follows:

There’s just... so much mutual support! Trust! Intimacy!! And it just continues like that from the Southern Raiders on, listening to each other, advising each other, watching each other’s backs! And then! Literally saving each other’s lives!! I will never be over the last Agni kai. Not ever. Zuko may have been willing to jump in front of lightning for anyone, but he actually did it for Katara. And in a show, that’s the thing that really matters. It’s a fulfilled trope usually exclusively applied to romantic pairings, and it ended up applying to Zuko and Katara. And then she ran out into the middle of a fight with tunnel vision just to get to him.

Also!! Also Zuko pushing Katara out of the way of the falling rocks at the Western Air Temple!! And Katara catching him as he fell from the war balloon that he fought Azula on!! Before they’re even getting along, they’re the ones reaching for each other. They come to this place of equal ground, as partners, who watch each other’s backs, call each other out but still listen attentively and understand, and provide the support that the other has been sorely lacking up until they knew each other (whether that be from lack of effort or lack of understanding from others, or an unwillingness to accept it for themselves).

Then, trailing along under the surface of this, we see the themes of the show totally embodied by Zuko and Katara as individuals and in their relationship to one another. There’s a YouTuber, sneezyreviews, who has a, like, 2-hour explanation on why she not only loves zutara but also believes that their endgame would’ve actually elevated the writing of atla to new levels particularly because of thematic cohesion and resolved character arcs. It’s the zutara dissertation I never knew I needed, and it’s funny and eloquent and effective, so I’m just going to sum up her section on thematic cohesion to the best of my abilities and then link it for whenever you have the time. And I HIGHLY recommend it, especially if you want a full understanding of what makes zutara so great and gives it such longevity.

Guru pathik has a line that goes something like this: separation is an illusion; things that seem different are just two parts of the same whole. Iroh also tells Zuko something similar: balance and strength are achieved when the different nations come together and influence one another and celebrate what makes them each unique. And this lesson is a massive central arc that both Zuko and Katara go through, moving past a black-and-white, good guys-vs-bad guys, us-vs-them mentality and into a greyer, more nuanced view of the world. Zuko sees the fire nation from an entirely new perspective and while he still loves and hopes for his nations future, he surrenders his blind loyalty to them in exchange for an unflinching loyalty to peace and love. Katara too had to come to terms with the fact that cruel people exist in the earth kingdom and water tribes, while some fire nation citizens are just regular, kind people who also need and deserve to have someone speak on their behalf. And this is honed in directly on how they view each other. They grow in their individual journeys to be open to the humanity in the other and then, once they’ve found that, they’re able to grow more in compassion for others in a beautiful feedback loop. And this is all matched in the symbolism repeatedly and intentionally associated with them in canon: sun and moon, fire and water, yin and yang, Oma and Shu who found love despite their warring nations. Their individual arcs are completed in each other and complement the themes of atla beautifully.

The canon pairs... just don’t. Which, again, is fine. But the very things that give atla longevity and popularity are anchored in zutara. Kat@ang doesn’t accomplish this. They’re... nice. Sweet. Especially when you erase a good portion of their interactions in S3. It could’ve been just a sweet love story. (Personally, the dynamic between toph and aang accomplish the same thing that zutara does, with complementary personalities that fulfill the theme of opposites blending in harmony) M@iko, on the other hand, is less sweet but I think wasn’t even supposed to last. Zuko’s relationship with Mai seems to represent his relationship with his old life as a whole. He can’t be emotionally vulnerable, he’s goaded into abusing his privileges, his agency and opinions aren’t respected. They just don’t have common ground with which to discuss anything that matters, so they don’t. As far as themes, the relationship doesn’t fit with atla. It’s zuko returning to and sticking with what is (on the surface) like him, what’s expected. Fire nation with fire nation. Fluid water bender with the flexible air bender. Like with like, separated from what is different and challenging and complementary.

And all of these things combined of course lead to the potential for the ship. I don’t know how familiar you are with the post-atla canon but... well, miss “I will never turn my back on people who need me”, miss “I don’t want to heal! I want to fight!” ends up living quietly in the SWT as a designated healer who turns a blind eye to the water tribe civil war happening right outside her front door. Which can be fine! People change! Some people just wanna stay inside. I just wanna stay inside! But the potential future for zutara is so much more satisfying, with Katara becoming the most unconventional Fire Lady the uppity old cads who are stuck on the old ways have ever seen. Fanon has her serving as a voice for the other nations within a kingdom at the point of its biggest political upheaval, as a confidante to Zuko who can actually help him while he’s trying to figure out how to move forward and make reparations. They have the opportunity, together, to accomplish what they both have set on their hearts to fight for: positive change that lends itself to harmony and balance. And the steambabies! A popular headcanon is that their firstborn daughter, the crown princess, is actually a waterbender, which causes such an uproar among the people who are adamantly clinging to the old ways. It’s just a future full of potential to be forces for good together, full of trust, intimacy, joy. The exact era of peace and love and balance that zuko announces that he intends to ring in with the start of his reign as Fire Lord is, again, magnified by the very personal zutara relationship. And we love to see it.

tl;dr zutara isn’t for everyone. Some people just don’t vibe with it. Some are nostalgic. Some love the canon they grew up with. Some have been disappointed for years. Some just see themselves in other characters and want their happiness instead. Whatever the reason, that’s fine. But for me, I love the way these two, from the moment they give each other a fair chance, are able to lower their walls and prejudices to see the other for the kindred spirits they are. They see each other’s humanity, and their response is to pour out love and support and compassion. I love that they’re a power couple in battle. I love the symbolism and, honestly, soulmatism that colors their every interaction. I love that they embody the whole storyline of atla in their relationship and how it develops, which is notably why their seasonal arcs always culminate in each finale with how they relate to one another. I love that zuko adopting a waterbending move is what actually saves his life and then katara’s. I love the chemistry! And I love the future they could’ve had, instead of the ones they were given.

So, in conclusion: I just think they’re neat and I hope you do too, at least a little bit. Even if it’s just respectfully from a disinterested distance cause you do you. And now here is the video I mentioned. I’m sorry this post got so long and then I gave you an even longer homework assignment, but I can’t recommend it enough. She says it all better than I can.

#zutara #atla #zutara rant #like really the way the canon relationships were written throughout s3 #it would’ve been more believable for zutara to happen #or at least be hinted at #all of the major issues presented in those relationship were dug up extensively and then... never resolved #and then they just slapped some kisses on a screen and said ‘there all better’ #and we just kinda had to say ‘oh ok guess it’s all better then’ #this got long I’m sorry #I wrote it all out and then tumblr ate 2/3 of it #which is why it took so long #and what I’ve written now doesn’t even match what I had before #because there’s too much to say about why I love zutara #and the stuff I left out the first time is what came out this time #rip to my original thoughts but this post is different #anyway that’s why this took so long #and I should’ve just made a PowerPoint... #I can do that too if you’d rather not read all of this lol #I won’t be offended #this is incoherent #Alia rambles uselessly #also hoping this doesn’t end up in any wrong tags because I don’t wanna step on toes lol #it’s not anti!! it’s just critical #in a compare/contrast way #I can pinpoint the moment when I started trying to rewrite my points from memory #because everything gets shorter and more succinct #like... I really said all that??? sounds fake and I don’t remember it anyway so here’s the condensed version #with no!! smooth!!! transitions!!!! #also why am I so lazy with proper grammar over text

[froggysoup]

wowee

Alrighty I’m just gonna ramble on about my thoughts on the new quest (and things in general because I talk too much) and pray that at least some of it ends up coherent. Spoilers, by the way.

I’ve had this first theory since the last archon quest but got nervous and didn’t share, so here it is now. Maybe it’s an obvious thing that I’m just in the dark about, but I’m fairly sure that Dainsleif’s “Boughkeeper” title has a large part in explaining why he knows so much about things he really shouldn’t. From the newest quest, we learn that he is actually cursed with immortality, which could explain some it, but the guy still knows too much for it to simply be chalked up to his age. He’s literally the designated narrator for half of the official videos and knows a lot about what and who he talks about.

I suspect that the ley lines serve as an information network of some sort, and that Dainsleif’s position as Boughkeeper allows him access to it in one way or another. The only other places we really see the whole tree/branch thing is with the ley line branches, Irminsul trees, the Frostbearing Tree, and the tree who once had roots that spanned the whole continent (which we know the ley line branches were once directly a part of), all of which are connected in a way that I haven’t quite figured out yet. 

Now, from those screens that come up while the game is loading, we know that supposedly, the intertwined roots of the Irminsul trees far beneath the earth determine the pattern of the ley lines above, and we also know that ley lines are a “mysterious network that links the whole world together” and that they are said to remember everything that happens in the world. From this, I don’t think it’d be that much of a reach to say that Dainsleif can access that somehow.

Next. I do think there’s a pretty good chance that the Archons were involved in the destruction of Khaenri’ah. The Viridescent Venerer set actually tells us how the former Dendro Archon died during the cataclysm while in Khaenri’ah, which. Uh. That’s kind of really incriminating. 

However! Obviously, we’ve only heard this from Dainsleif’s point of view and he’s pretty biased considering his whole thing. We don’t know how much control Celestia has over the Archons’ actions, either, and I’m about 98% sure that some of them weren’t into it, and likely didn't even have a choice. Like, look at the Tsaritsa. Her whole thing is that sometime during the cataclysm, she witnessed something so view-shattering and unjust that her whole thing now is to “burn away the old world” and overthrow Celestia. 

I also can’t see Venti and Zhongli going along with the destruction of an entire nation with no hesitation. Like, obviously, again, Dainsleif is going to be biased, but from what we’ve been told Khaenri’ah didn’t even do anything divine-retribution-worthy. Celestia just seems be into dropping skyscraper-sized pillars and other things onto nations who get too good at being independent, for whatever reason. The new quest is definitely supposed to make us question the current systems of this world but I don’t think we’re meant to hate Venti or Zhongli, at least yet. I think they’re even kind of meant to be seen as the “best” out of the Archons, so to speak. (Not that I think they’re perfect, by any means.)

Like, just look at the way they’ve been presented to us, versus how some of the other Archons have been introduced (Storyline Trailer, my beloved). 

Raiden Shogun is made out to be some self-absorbed divine ass-kisser who doesn’t have humanity’s best interests at heart (which we know is supposed to be a thing you do as an Archon). She’s doing her whole confiscating visions and oppressive rule thing in an effort to be seen as more divine, but, as Dainsleif puts it, “what do mortals see of the eternity chased after by their god?”

The Dendro Archon/God of Wisdom is implied to not actually be as smart as somebody with that title is supposed to be, one way or another, and either has turned a blind eye to or blatantly encourages the “push for folly” in Sumeru. Can’t tell exactly what that would mean or entail (thanks, Dainsleif), but obviously. Doesn’t sound good.

Dainsleif says of the Hydro Archon that she “lives for the spectacle of the courtroom, seeking to judge all other gods. But even she knows not to make an enemy of the divine.” While the not making an enemy of the divine thing I get (I guess, coward), the whole “seeking to judge all other gods” bit seems very “remove the log from your own eye”-y. Like, you’re an Archon, too, what are you trying to prove here?

The Tsaritsa is- well, the Tsaritsa, as we know. While I do think we are meant to sympathize and agree with at least part of her core ideals and motives, she still is the one behind the Fatui and is, by extension, a war criminal. She also apparently has “no love left for her people”. It’s a bit of a complicated relationship that we have with her.

The only ones who Dainsleif does not directly slander in the trailer are Venti, Zhongli, and Murata. While I don’t think we have enough on her to come to any conclusions about her character yet, Venti does say of her that she is a “wayward, war-mongering wretch”. Now, he does also jab at Rex Lapis during this voiceline, but unlike with Murata we know that those two are buddy-buddy and it was very likely that it was “buffoon (affectionate)”.

Venti and Zhongli are also the first two Archons we encounter, which is important for multiple reasons.

Gonna derail for a bit because I don’t know where to start. But. The game very likely will (or at least should) end with no Archons.

Obviously, especially in light of the new quest (although this stuff has been floating around since the Dragonspine update and even before that), Celestia Bad. Like, cataclysmically bad (lmao). In fact, I’m highly certain that you could trace basically every problem in this game back to them, some way or another.

Even our main “villain” groups all seem to be gunning for Celestia. The Fatui obviously work for the Tsaritsa, who’s made it very clear that she plans to rebel against the divine. The Abyss Order, too, has their Deeply Upsetting plan of creating a mechanized god with the power to “topple the divine thrones of Celestia”.

Evidence points to an overthrow of Celestia at some point in the game, and considering how being an Archon or even a god is directly tied to Celestia, yeah. No more Celestia means no more Archons.

But even besides that, there’s a lot there to suggest that that’s where things are going.

I find it interesting how Mondstadt’s our prologue chapter, or that there’s even a prologue chapter of the game at all. Prologues are meant to set up ideas that will be present throughout the rest of the story, and Mondstadt does exactly that. Venti’s let the people of Mondstadt govern themselves and has almost completely been out of the equation for millennia, even if that means he is significantly weaker than his godly peers. When asked why he chose to do that instead of remain in charge and just give them freedom, Venti responds that “freedom, if demanded of you by an archon, is really no freedom at all.” This sentiment is also brought up in the Mondstadt portion of the storyline trailer, and the traveler even has a whole voiceline debating what Venti really meant when he said that.

This idea of freedom and that humanity is capable on its own is further reinforced in Chapter 1, in which Liyue learns to move on from the death of its Archon. Zhongli set up his plan with the intention of testing if his people could stand on their own legs without him there to guide them, and they do. He even expresses how pleasantly surprised he is that the Qixing were able to take advantage of the situation and seize control like they did. Keqing gives us this whole speech when we first meet her about how the adepti and gods underestimate humanity’s capability and how Liyue’s future is meant to be a godless one. This, in a way, extends to the rest of the continent as well.

In the storyline trailer (which I quote too often, I’m sorry. My favorite and only party trick is that I got bored one day and memorized the whole thing), Dainsleif spends the entire Khaenri’ah section musing about something similar. 

“In the perpetual meantime of a sheltered eternity, most are content to live and not to dream. But in the hidden corner where the gods’ gaze does not fall, there are those who dream of dreaming,” is obviously about the people of Teyvat vs. those in Khaenri’ah. While a future under the care of the Archons is a safe and reliable one, is it one that allows humanity to chase its potential to the fullest? Khaenri’ah was destroyed for flourishing like it did without gods, both as a punishment and a warning to everybody else.

“Some say a few are chosen and the rest are dregs, but I say we humans have our humanity.” This is in reference to visions. Throughout the game, this idea that, at least in the eyes of the gods, vision holders are more important than those without them, is constantly brought up.

In the commission “Leaves on the Wind”, Dr. Edith expresses how it often seems as if vision holders are the main characters of this world. From the notebooks we receive during the “Time and Wind” world quest, we learn that the Sumeru Academia actually discourages non-vision holders from conducting outdoor surveys, and how “these days... trying to be an academic when you don't have a Vision, it's really restricting...” Dainsleif even just straight up asks us what we think the gods think of vision holders and people in general during question time in that one quest.

In Lisa’s stories, we learn that the reason for her laziness is that a part of her is afraid of learning or doing too much, after witnessing what “uninhibited erudition” can do to people during her time in Sumeru. She also senses that something beneath the surface is happening regarding the distribution of visions. “For whatever reasons, the gods gave humans the key to changing everything, but they did not explain the cost involved. Lisa grew fearful of the truth.”

I forgot exactly where I was going with that last paragraph, but yeah. There’s definitely sketchy shit going on behind the scenes in regards to visions, possibly to keep people either quiet or complacent. I suspect it may even be to restrict access to certain knowledges or even the elements themselves. Anyways.

I lose track of my thoughts too often. Fuck. Right. Mondstadt and Liyue served as good examples of society under the rule of the Archons, and in Chapter 2 we will encounter our first bad example, showing us the pros and cons of the current situation. However, despite Zhongli and Venti seeming to genuinely care for their people, humanity’s wellbeing shouldn’t be reliant on how their god is feeling that day, and they shouldn’t have to look to the gods for a chance to become something greater than themselves, either.

Um. All that’s to say I’m just very excited to see where the story will go, and if Zhongli’s contract with the Tsaritsa is any indication then it’s gonna go somewhere good. Celestia bad, Archons bad but also not bad but also bad, I don’t know if what I just wrote actually even counts as understandable, thank you and good night.

#i talk too much without saying anything substantial i'm so sorry #genshin impact #genshin impact theory #does this count as dainsleifposting? #i'll tag it anyway #dainsleifposting

[the-ferocious-kittyrose]

Rewriting Haggar/Honerva’s redemption arc

One of the many things that bothered me about VLD S8 is Honerva’s redemption arc. While I was never fully against the idea of Honerva getting a redemption arc, I just didn’t want VLD to do it because I knew that they would fuck it up if they tried. And low and behold, I was right!

But yeah, I wasn’t against the idea of her being redeemed. And I don’t mean “redeemed” as in “all is forgiven and she’s just a good guy now,” but more like a Darth Vader, “the things she did were inexcusable and she would never be able to right all her wrongs but she goes out on one good act to show that there was still good in her deep down and she at least had the potential to change.”

I know a lot of people don’t like the whole, “redemption=death” thing, which I understand, but I personally never had a problem with it.

Ok, so why didn’t Honerva’s redemption work? Well there are a few reasons but the one that baffles me the most is that, instead of trying to make her more sympathetic, season 8 seemed to go out of its way to show her being more evil and vile than ever.

And because I have nothing better to do, I’m gonna go through Honerva’s story in VLD and explain what I would change to make her redemption more believable.

(Keep in mind I am not a writer, this is just me ranting about my favorite character and how I personally would’ve written her.)

1. Realizing she’s Altean

I always thought it’s was weird that when Allura said “you’re...Altean!?” In the S2 finale, Haggar didn’t seem to react at all, she just kept attacking. It’s as if she didn’t care or already knew, which doesn’t make sense considering in the S3 finale and S8E2 it’s established that Haggar has no memory of who she was before she died. And in S4E3 she seems shocked by her Altean face (which also doesn’t make sense because her blue skin isn’t camouflage that’s just how she looks after the rift) so it seems like she didn’t know.

Wouldn’t it have made more sence if after Allura said “you’re...Altean!?” Honerva looked confused/shocked? If she became defensive and said Allura was lying/trying to insult her? There’s def anti-Altean propaganda in the empire so it would be considered an insult.

After that she starts questioning Zarkon. And when she looks into his mind, it’s out of genuine curiosity and desire to know the truth, not because, “the empire needs him” or whatever that meant.

And isn’t it a bit odd that she doesn’t seem betrayed at all when she finds out Zarkon has been keeping all this from her? She’s just like, “oh, you’re my husband? Cool.” Wtf???

2. Her past relationship with Zarkon

Okay, I love Zonerva, but if we’re being honest, Zarkon was not the best husband. He enabled the shit out of Honerva, even when it was obvious that the rift was doing serious damage to her physical and mental health. To me, it seems like Zarkon was so blinded by the power the rift gave him that he didn’t realize/ignored the negative effect it was having on Honerva. In the same way he downplayed the negative impact the rift had on the planet.

I think that should’ve been explored more. Maybe Honerva notices that she’s been acting differently and is worried somethings wrong (think S5 Kuron). And Honerva tries to tell Zarkon that she feels strange and Zarkon just brushes it off.

And later, when Alfor visits Diaibazaal years later. Things are pretty much the same except when we sees Honerva, she is very obviously pregnant and Alfor’s there when Honerva falls and goes into labor (instead of a random quintessence seizure). Alfor and many Galran doctors try their best to save her and the baby but she dies in childbirth.

Zarkon goes ballistic. He’s yelling, throwing doctors across the room, and Alfor turns to the doctor holding Lotor and tells them to get the baby to safely, fearing Zarkon will take his grief out on the baby.

Zarkon turns on Alfor, blaming him for Honerva’s death and accusing him of letting her die so that he could get his way and close the rift. He lunges Alfor and roars at him to leave.

He spends the rest of the night grieving at Honerva’s bedside, when Kova jumps on the bed and starts gnawing on her finger trying to wake her up. This is what gives him the idea to bring her back with quintessence.

3. Her current relationship with Zarkon

I think it’s pretty safe to say that they’re relationship didn’t get better after the war began. Zarkon hid her identity and her child from her for 10,000 years and essentially used her as a tool of war. It’s pretty fucked up.

I know it’s pretty well established that Zarkon treats Haggar with more respect than his other underlings, but I feel like it would be interesting to see that change overtime. We see that after Voltron comes back, Zarkon becomes very obsessed with Voltron/Black, and he and Haggar start disagreeing more and more.

Remember the moment where one of Haggar’s druids told Zarkon Haggar said he needed to rest and Zarkon hit them with his bayard and told them, “remember who your master is”? What if, instead of a random druid, it was Haggar who he hit?

I feel like that would be a good way to show Haggar and the audience just how much Zarkon’s obsession with Voltron is affecting him, and make the audience feel a tiny bit bad for her.

Then later in season 4, when Zarkon wakes up from his coma and finds out Haggar brought Lotor back to take his place he gets pissed. He puts a price on Lotor’s head and has Haggar arrested for treason. She steals a ship, escapes, and later on meets up with Lotor’s generals.

Her and Zarkon are officially broken up and her quest to reclaim her identity and get her son back begins.

4. Oriande

I never liked the concept of chosen/sacred Alteans. The idea that some Alteans are just born more powerful than others just feels iffy. My idea of Oriande is that it’s an Altean holly land, any Altean can enter it just depends on whether or not you can pass the White Lion’s trial. Passing the trial proves that your intentions are pure and and the White Lion will bless you with power.

I didn’t like how Honerva seemed to force her way into Oriande, I think it would be more effective if she had gone through normally because, at this point, her intentions were pure. She was going there to purge herself of the dark magic corrupting her and reclaim her memories so she could go get her son back.

I also like the idea that Oriande is a sorta link to the Altean after life, and you can speak with people you’ve lost. Allura gets to speak with Alfor, and Honerva speaks with her mother.

You could also have her be confronted by the spirits of the Alteans she helped destroy. Have the weight of her past actions bear down on her. An important part of any redemption arc is acknowledging the terrible shit you’ve done in the past, and that was severely lacking in Honerva’s arc.

Another interesting thing you could do is have Honerva talk to her younger self. The one that died 10,000 years ago. This kinda thing actually happened in 80s Voltron, young Haggar appearing in Haggar’s head trying to convince her to be good again.

5. Her relationship with Lotor

Now this is where the redemption arc really falls apart. I forget who, but one of the writers said after S5 that Haggar/Honerva was motivated purely by love for her son, but man did they do a bad job of showing that.

And it would’ve been so easy to fix that problem, just have her not be horrible to him. Have them have actual civil conversations, have her protect and defend him. Don’t have her reject him as a fucking baby!

Imagine if, after Zarkon destroys Lotor’s planet, instead of immediately deciding to

exile him, Zarkon says that this is the final straw and he’s going to have Lotor executed. But Haggar speaks up to defend Him. There’s actually a scene in DOTU where Zarkon tries to kill Lotor and Haggar gets on her knees and begs for him to be spared. (Though the scene was mostly played for laughs.)

she asks for mercy and justifies it by saying it would be unwise to kill his only heir. It’s a weak argument, Lotor’s a half breed and couldn’t realistically take the throne, but Zarkon does concede, he still loves her after all, and has Lotor exiled.

And Haggar isn’t spying on him because she doesn’t trust him, but because she’s concerned for him. When Lotor confronts Haggar about sending her cronies after him, she says she knows he’s hiding something. Lotor asks if she’s threatening him, thinking she’s going to rat him out, but she says no, she’s not threatening him, she’s just trying to warn him against doing anything stupid because, with Zarkon seemingly on his death bed, the empire needs Lotor’s leadership.

At this point in the story, Haggar is questioning her loyalty to Zarkon, so I feel like it would make sense for her to be silently supporting Lotor from the shadows.

Then at the Kral Zera in season 5, It was weird to me how she was helping Lotor through Kuron while also telling him he couldn’t be emperor and trying to put Sendak on the throne. I feel like it would’ve made more sense for Sendak to just show up on his own without Haggar.

Haggar wouldn’t even be at the Kral Zera, she would just watch through Kuron.

And then we get to S6 when she actually reveals to Lotor that she’s his mom. This scene was just so poorly done. She never actually apologizes to him, she’s just like “yeah I forgot you were my kid and I never loved you, but were cool now right?” I remember when I saw S8E2 and it shows her after Lotor rejects her and she looks like she’s about to cry, I was just thinking, “this would be very emotional and sad IF she had actually apologized and made it clear that she genuinely loved him.” But she didn’t and I don’t know why!

And then we get to season 8, and of course everything in S8 is bad but Honerva’s story is particularly bad. She’s supposed to be motivated by love for Lotor yet she doesn’t act like she actually cares about him at all.

She manipulates his corpse and when she sees his gross melted body, she doesn’t even react that much. When a mother sees her child’s mutilated corpse, how do you think she reacts? Screaming? Crying?? Hurling??? But no. She’s just like, “...”

And then when she goes to the alternate reality and meets baby Lotor and he rejects her, her reaction isn’t disappointment or sadness, it’s anger and entitlement. She immediately decides, “ok, fuck this kid. Let’s destroy this reality.”

It just doesn’t make sense! This is the season you’re trying to REDEEM her! Why are you going out of your way to make her so vile?

6. Her S7-S8 plan

(Keep in mind I haven’t watched S7/S8 since they came out and barely even watched S8 to begin with, so I don’t remember some things and I can’t be bothered to rewatch them.)

Okay, starting with S7, she’s not in this season at all but in “The Ruins” the druid dude says that her final order was to hunt and destroy the Blade of Marmora. I guess it makes a certain amount of sense because she saw that it was Keith who brought Lotor’s actions to light, but that whole plot was really pointless in my opinion. (Was anybody really hoping for a rematch between Keith and that one random druid?)

If you want us to forgive Honerva for her crimes, you really shouldn’t keep adding more unnecessary crimes. It’s established that there were a lot of Galra war lords vying for power and pirates looking for money, just have it be that Kolivan got kidnapped by one of them.

Then you have her season 8 plan and I’m gonna be real with y’all, I have no idea how to fix this mess.

I feel like the basics of her plan could work. She tries to get Lotor and Sincline out of the rift but when she gets him he’s a melted corpse so the plan then becomes to use sincline to go to another reality to find a living Lotor, but opening all these rifts causes problems and the paladins have to stop her.

But all the shit with manipulating the colony Alteans, killing the White Lion, desecrating Oriande, and destroying Olkarion and entire realities, it was all so unnecessary.

Personally I would cut the colony Alteans from the story all together, there are other ways for Lotor to betray the team. It was a lazy way of making Lotor 100% evil and having Honerva manipulate them is unnecessarily cruel, especially in the season you’re trying to redeem her.

Here’s a very basic outline of how I would do this plot.

If we’re going by season 8’s logic that she needs a sacrifice to bring back Sincline, I would’ve had the Galra she killed at the Kral Zera be the sacrifice, not the White Lion. She stands on the pyramid and talks about how the empire stole her life from her and she wants revenge as she absorbs their quintessence into herself and then uses that to bring back Sincline.

Then when she finds Lotor dead she takes Sincline and uses it to go to another reality where she can be with her family.

The danger comes when she opens rifts to the other realities and rift creatures start coming out and causing damage. The paladins fight them and follow her into the rift to stop whatever evil plan she may have. Because the paladins don’t know that Haggar is now Honerva and all this is just to get Lotor back. They think this is all some plan for multiverse domination or some shit.

Meanwhile Honerva has just been rejected by little Lotor and seeing Voltron show up pushes her over the edge and they fight.

But when they find out the real reason she’s doing all this they start trying to appeal to her and convince her to give up and close the rift peacefully. And similarly to how the paladins had to sacrifice the castle to close the rifts created by the fight with Lotor, Honerva has to sacrifice herself to close the rifts.

In the end, I feel like a Honerva redemption arc could’ve worked if the writers were actually competent and actually made an effort to have her be sympathetic, but In canon, her reasoning, “If I can’t indulge in the simple joys of life, why should anybody else?” just doesn’t cut it.

It’s disappointing. VLD had so much potential. I’m thinking of just rewriting the entire series from the beginning. Hopefully putting all my thoughts out into the universe will help me move on.

#voltron #voltron legendary discourse #haggar #honerva #Lotor #prince lotor #Allura #princess allura #vld #vld critical #Altean #voltron season 8 #zarkon #emperor Zarkon #zonerva #Galra #redemption arc

[amuelia]

How do you think Roose will meet his demise? Or will he survive? What's your best Roose end game predictions?

Thank you for the question! This will be a long post under the readmore, going into my thoughts on the show ending and exploring what the books may have set up in regards to themes and characterization, as well as a bit of general analysis of Roose' story arc in a Dance with Dragons (and some speculation about Ramsay as well).

If you click on the readmore i will have divided the post into sections with bolded Headers, if you want to only read my specific endgame ideas you can skip ahead to the "His Endgame?" section.

In The Show

The show had him get killed by Ramsay in s6, which informs a lot of the fandom speculation about this storyline.

I am not a fan of the show's scenario as it was both similar to tywin and tyrion as well as a mirror of robb's death; it would also be offscreen in the books since neither of the characters are PoVs and Ramsay would need to do the act in secret. This would ultimately undercut Roose' role and impact, being a death scene that is not very unique and also isn't shown to the reader directly. Since no PoV is even in Winterfell currently, we would just hear of it from afar and not witness the consequences.

The show also has a different dynamic in the Bolton storyline, emphasizing Ramsay as the "main character" of this arc, and elevating him to the main villain for s5-6 to fill Joffrey's shoes as an evil character played by a very charismatic actor. Ramsay's show writing is informed by the needs of a TV setting that wants shocking moments and capitalizes on "fan favourite" actors; his rising importance in the show thus is not necessarily an indicator of his book importance. The show was also missing many central characters like the northern lords and the Frey men in Winterfell.

The show had a tendency to kill off characters early when they wanted to cull storylines or had no plans to adapt more of the character's story (like Stannis, Barristan, possibly the Tyrells...); In Mance Rayder we have the most obvious example, where they killed him off for real in a scene that in the book was a misdirection. We also have characters like Jorah where it appears the showrunners had their own choice of how they want his storyline to end, even if Grrm has his own ending in mind.

"For a long time we wanted Ser Jorah to be there at The Wall in the end," writer Dave Hill says. "The three coming out of the tunnel would be Jon and Jorah and Tormund. But [...] Jorah should have the noble death he craves defending the woman he loves." - Dave Hill for Entertainment Weekly

So a death in the show does not need to be an indicator that the books will feature an equivalent scene, even if it gives a hint as to what may happen. By s5 the show has become its own beast, and the butterfly effects from radical changes they made as well as the different characterizations results in the show having to cater to its own needs in many cases when it gets to resolving a plotline.

"We reconceived the role to make it worthy of the actor's talents." - Benioff and Weiss for the s5 DVD commentary, on Indira Varma's casting as Ellaria

In The Books

(Since this post was getting out of hand in length a lot of these arguments are a little shortened/not as in-depth as i'd like! Feel free to inquire more via ask if something is unclear or you disagree)

In the books i find it hard to make a concrete guess as to how it will end. Occam's razor would be to assume the show sort of got it right and that it will vaguely end the same, which could very well happen and i will not discount the possibility; Ramsay is cruel, desires the Dreadfort rule, and is a suspected kinslayer and has no qualms to commit immoral violence.

"Ramsay killed [his brother]. A sickness of the bowels, Maester Uthor says, but I say poison." - Reek III, aDwD

Reek saw the way Ramsay's mouth twisted, the spittle glistening between his lips. He feared he might leap the table with his dagger in his hand [to attack his father]. - Reek III, aDwD

Arguments against this or for a different endgame come down to interpretations of the themes in the story arc and opinions on dramatic structure/grrm's writing, and are thus very subjective.

The way the story currently is going, Ramsay killing Roose treats Roose almost as a plot device; his death brings no change or development to Ramsay's character as we already know his motivations and cruelty align with such an act, and we can assume that he would feel no remorse about it either. The results of such a scene would be firmly on a story level, as it brings political changes and moves the plot along into a specific direction. Roose himself cannot have any relevant character development about it as he does not have a PoV and we would not be able to witness his reaction from the outside.

“The only thing worth writing about is the human heart in conflict with itself.” - William Faulkner, often quoted by Grrm

Further, killing his father is very difficult to pull off in secret (Roose is frequently described as very cautious, and employs many guardsmen). And even if Ramsay pulls it off (people often interpret Ramsay as Roose' blind spot, assuming he might be caught by surprise, not expecting Ramsay would bite the hand that feeds him), Roose is the one that holds his entire alliance together; The Freys would be alienated by Ramsay who would antagonize Walda and her son as his rivals, The Ryswell bloc appears to dislike Ramsay (especially Barbrey), and the other northmen are implied to not even like Roose himself. Killing Roose would quickly combust the entire northern faction, and hinder Ramsay's further plans (another reason why I am not convinced of a book version of the "Battle of Bastards"). Though this might of course, if we look at it from the other side, be grrm's plan to quickly dissolve this plot and move the northern story forwards.

"Ramsay will kill [Walda's children], of course. [...] [She] will grieve to see them die, though." - Reek III, aDwD

"How many of our grudging friends do you imagine we'd retain if the truth were known? Only Lady Barbrey, whom you would turn into a pair of boots … inferior boots." - Reek III, aDwD

"Fear is what keeps a man alive in this world of treachery and deceit. Even here in Barrowton the crows are circling, waiting to feast upon our flesh. The Cerwyns and the Tallharts are not to be relied on, my fat friend Lord Wyman plots betrayal, and Whoresbane … the Umbers may seem simple, but they are not without a certain low cunning. Ramsay should fear them all, as I do." - Reek III, aDwD

Roose' death at Ramsay's hand also removes him thematically from the Red Wedding, as we can assume such a death might have happened regardless of his participation in the event (seeing as Ramsay is getting provoked by Roose constantly in normal dialogue, and has a general violent disposition). Roose already took Ramsay in before aGoT started, and married Walda very early in the war, which is already most of the buildup that the show's scenario had. It also has little to do with the The North Remembers plot except set dressing, since the northmen are presumably neither collaborating with/egging on Ramsay nor would they appreciate the development.

Themes: Ned Stark and the rule over the North

Roose is treated as a foil to Eddard; They are often contrasted in morals and ruling styles, while also having many superficial similarities that further connect them (they are seen as cold by people, grey eyed, patriarchs of rivalling northern houses, etc...).

Pale as morning mist, his eyes concealed more than they told. Jaime misliked those eyes. They reminded him of the day at King's Landing when Ned Stark had found him seated on the Iron Throne. - Jaime IV, aSoS

They both have a "bastard son" that they handle very differently; Roose treating Ramsay in the way that is seen as common in their society. Ramsay and Jon as a comparison are meant to show that Catelyn had a reason to see a bastard as a threat (since Domeric was antagonized by his bastard brother), but also shows that her suggested plan for Jon would not have stopped any danger either (as Ramsay being raised away from the castle didn't help).

And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child's needs. He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. - Catelyn II, aGoT

"Each year I sent the woman some piglets and chickens and a bag of stars, on the understanding that she was never to tell the boy who had fathered him. A peaceful land, a quiet people, that has always been my rule." - Reek III, aDwD

It appears to me that Roose' story functions in some ways as an inversion to Ned. He makes an attempt to grab a power he was not destined to (becoming warden of the north), where Ned did not want the responsiblity thrust upon him ("It was all meant for Brandon. [...] I never asked for this cup to pass to me." - Cat II, aGoT). Where Ned rules successfully and his northmen honor his legacy ("What do you think passes through their heads when they hear the new bride weeping? Valiant Ned's precious little girl." - The Turncloak, aDwD), the Boltons are largely hated and there are several plots conspiring against them ("Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die." - The King's Prize, aDwD).

It seems possible to me that in terms of their family and legacy, Roose might also live through an inverted version of Ned's story; where Ned died first, leaving his family behind, Roose already lived to see the death of his wives and trueborn heir, and might thus also live to see Ramsay's death. Ned leaves behind well raised children and a North who still respects his name, and even though he dies it will presumably all be "in good hands" in the end (in broad strokes, obviously this is all much more morally complex). Roose however built up a bad and toxic legacy, and also built his way of life around evading consequences; it makes sense to me that he would be forced by the story to finally endure all the consequences of his actions and witness the fall of his house firsthand. After all we already have Tywin who fulfils the purpose of dying before his children while his legacy falls to ruins, and a Feast for Crows explores this aspect thoroughly.

Roose' arc in A Dance With Dragons

The story repeatedly builds up the situation unravelling around Roose, and him slowly losing a grip on it and becoming more stressed and anxious.

Reek wondered if Roose Bolton ever cried. If so, do the tears feel cold upon his cheeks? - Reek II, aDwD

Roose Bolton said nothing at all. But Theon Greyjoy saw a look in his pale eyes that he had never seen before—an uneasiness, even a hint of fear. [...] That night the new stable collapsed beneath the weight of the snow that had buried it. - a Ghost in Winterfell, aDwD

Lady Walda gave a shriek and clutched at her lord husband's arm. "Stop," Roose Bolton shouted. "Stop this madness." His own men rushed forward as the Manderlys vaulted over the benches to get at the Freys. - Theon I, aDwD

It also directly presents him as a parallel to Theon's rule in aCoK, who similarly experienced a very unpopular rule and his subjects slowly turning against him. Presumably, the point of this comparison will not just be "Ramsay comes in at the end and unexpectedly whacks them on the head". Both Theon and Roose invited Ramsay into their lives, giving him more power than he deserves, and causing Ramsay to make choices that increasingly alienate others from them (the death of the miller's boys for example has repercussions for both Theon and Roose). Grrm is likely steering this towards a difference in how they will deal with this situation.

It all seemed so familiar, like a mummer show that he had seen before. Only the mummers had changed. Roose Bolton was playing the part that Theon had played the last time round, and the dead men were playing the parts of Aggar, Gynir Rednose, and Gelmarr the Grim. Reek was there too, he remembered, but he was a different Reek, a Reek with bloody hands and lies dripping from his lips, sweet as honey. - a Ghost in Winterfell, aDwD

"Stark's little wolflings are dead," said Ramsay, sloshing some more ale into his cup, "and they'll stay dead. Let them show their ugly faces, and my girls will rip those wolves of theirs to pieces. The sooner they turn up, the sooner I kill them again." - The elder Bolton sighed. "Again? Surely you misspeak. You never slew Lord Eddard's sons, those two sweet boys we loved so well. That was Theon Turncloak's work, remember? How many of our grudging friends do you imagine we'd retain if the truth were known?" - Reek III, aDwD

Roose' arc is deeply connected to the relations he shares to the other northern lords, which has been heavily impacted by the Red Wedding. It stands to reason that they are going to be an important part of his downfall, and we see many hints of them plotting to betray him.

The north remembers, Lord Davos. The north remembers, and the mummer's farce is almost done. My son is home." - Davos IV, aDwD

Themes: Stannis and kinslaying

The books set up Roose and Stannis as foils as well; Both lack charisma and have trouble winnning the people's support, Stannis and Roose both parallel and contrast Ned, Stannis appears as a "lesser Robert" where Roose is a "lesser Ned", Stannis represents the fire where Roose represents the ice, both struggle over dominion in a land that doesnt particularly want either of them, etc... What i find interesting is how they are contrasted over kinslaying:

"Only Renly could vex me so with a piece of fruit. He brought his doom on himself with his treason, but I did love him, Davos. I know that now. I swear, I will go to my grave thinking of my brother's peach." - Davos II, aCoK

"I should've had the mother whipped and thrown her child down a well … but the babe did have my eyes." [...] "Now [Domeric's] bones lie beneath the Dreadfort with the bones of his brothers, who died still in the cradle, and I am left with Ramsay. Tell me, my lord … if the kinslayer is accursed, what is a father to do when one son slays another?" - Reek III, aCoK

Stannis is set up as someone who is very thorough and strict in following his own code and his "duty", even if he does not like what it forces him to do.

Stannis ground his teeth again. "I never asked for this crown. Gold is cold and heavy on the head, but so long as I am the king, I have a duty . . . If I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark . . . Sacrifice . . . is never easy, Davos. Or it is no true sacrifice. Tell him, my lady." - Davos IV, aSoS

The armorer considered that a moment. "Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends." - Jon I, aCoK

Roose however is frequently characterized as someone who tries to get as much as he can while avoiding negative consequences, and who does not have a consistent moral code and instead bends rules to his benefit to be the most comfortable to him.

It is often theorized that Stannis will end up burning his daughter Shireen; the Ramsay issue might then serve to contrast the two men. If Grrm intends it to be compared by the reader, I can see it going two ways: Either Roose will be forced to finally act in a drastic way after avoiding his responsibility in regards to Ramsay and he will be forced to get rid of his son, making him break the only moral hurdle he has presented adhering to during the story (though analyzing his character, the kinslaying taboo is probably less a sign of moral fortitude and more him using the guise of morals to explain a selfish motivation). Or he might not act against Ramsay and suffer the consequences, presenting an interesting moral situation where some readers might consider his action "better" or more relatable than Stannis', breaking up the otherwise very black and white moral comparison between the two men. It serves as an interesting conflict of the morality of kinslaying compared to what readers might see as a moral obligation of getting rid of a monster such as Ramsay; contrasting Shireen whose death would not be seen as worth it by most. Ramsay as a bastard (who was almost killed at birth if he hadnt been able to prove his paternity) also makes for an interesting verbal parallel with the bastard Edric Storm, and might be used for a look at the utilitarian principle of killing a child (baby ramsay/edric) to save countless people from suffering that underpinned Edric's story.

"As Faulkner says, all of us have the capacity in us for great good and for great evil, for love but also for hate. I wanted to write those kinds of complex character in a fantasy, and not just have all the good people get together to fight the bad guy." - Grrm

"Robert, I ask you, what did we rise against Aerys Targaryen for, if not to put an end to the murder of children?" - Eddard VIII, aGoT

"If Joffrey should die . . . what is the life of one bastard boy against a kingdom?" - "Everything," said Davos, softly. - Davos V, aSoS

However Grrm decides to present these conflicts or which actions the characters will take in the end, it will result in interesting discussion and analysis for the readers.

His Endgame?

Looking at the trends of the past books, it is probably going to be hard to predict any specific outcome; every book introduces new characters and plot elements that were impossible to predict from the last book even if their thematic importance or setup was aptly foreshadowed.

Roose has a lot of plot importance and characterization that has, in my opinion, not yet been properly resolved in a way that would be unique and poignant to the specific purpose his character appears to fulfil. However I also have a bias in that i did not like the show's writing of that scene which makes me averse to see a version of it in the books, and i really like Roose as a character and want to see him have more scenes in the next book(s). This leads me to discount plot speculation that cuts his character arc short offscreen early. Roose is only a side character; however, i have trust in grrm's writing abilities and that he would give him a proper sendoff that feels satisfying to a fan of the character.

"…even the [characters] who are complete bastards, nasty, twisted, deeply flawed human beings with serious psychological problems… When I get inside their skin and look out through their eyes, I have to feel a certain — if not sympathy, certainly empathy for them. I have to try to perceive the world as they do, and that creates a certain amount of affection." — George Martin

Considering my earlier analyis, there is a case to be made for Roose killing Ramsay; however it appears grrm might have a different endgame in mind for Ramsay, foreshadowed in Chett's prologue:

There'd be no lord's life for the leechman's son, no keep to call his own, no wives nor crowns. Only a wildling's sword in his belly, and then an unmarked grave. The snow's taken it all from me . . . the bloody snow . . . - Chett, aSoS

I tend to think something might happen to Roose/the Bolton bloc later in the book that would cause Ramsay to attempt to flee the scene again like he did back in aCoK fleeing Rodrik's justice; perhaps Ramsay is sent out to battle but then flees it like a coward, or he sees his cause as lost. This time, the fleeing and potentially disguised Ramsay would not make it out to safety though, and get killed without being recognized as Ramsay, dying forgotten. This would serve as dramatic irony since Ramsay so strongly desired to be recognized and respected as a Lord of Bolton, without being too on the nose.

As for Roose, i could see him getting captured and somehow brought to justice (either when someone takes Winterfell or in some sort of battle). I see it unlikely that he will be backstabbed like Robb was, because it seems very "eye for an eye" and ultimately doesn't teach much of a lesson except "he had it coming"; But the various people conspiring against him could lead to his capture by betraying him (giving a payoff to the northern conspiracies and the red wedding). I would find a scene of him standing trial interesting since i believe we didn't have one of these for a true non-pov villain yet, and it would be an interesting confrontation that he cannot escape from (he also loves to talk so it would be a good read to see him make a case for himself).

I assume Roose will be out of the picture when the Other plot finally properly kicks into gear (whether dead or "in prison"). With Stannis as a false Azor Ahai and Roose as a false Other (with his pale, cold features), their struggle in the north seems to be a representation of the false "Game of Thrones" that distracts people from the "real threat" of the Others.

As always this is just my opinion, and it could all go very differently in the books! There could always be something that completely uproots my analysis and goes into a direction i did not expect from the material we had; But i have fate that Grrm as a writer will deliver and give me something i can be satisfied with.

#asks #asoiaf #asoiaf meta #roose bolton #valyrianscrolls #a song of ice and fire #not art #anonymous

[scrawnytreedemon]

Can’t sleep, mind going precisely 56 miles an hour, so I think I’ll finally get around to writing this.

Couples days back, I went ahead and finally psyched myself up to do the Zant bossfight.

Because I’d picked up where I’d left off yesterday, which was just before the boss room, obviously I was taken back to the beginning of the area. This gave the whole ordeal a trek, if a short one, what with the Palace of Twilight’s laughable length, and me more time to think.

I didn’t want to do this.

It sounds stupid, but I really didn’t want to do this. I’d cried the day before trying to psych myself up and failing, and I’d cried then, before the boss door, stalling by sweeping away the crystal-fog as best I could-- A meagre attempt at housekeeping, and a futile one. Of course I couldn’t. This isn’t that sort of game. This isn’t a game for failed attempts at kindness, at least trying to clean this awful, awful place for an awful, awful man going through awful, awful things. I was supposed to be a hero.

Heroes don’t make beds.

They don’t wash dishes, or hang laundry, or hold a rival’s hand,

They kill.

The trek didn’t stop past the door, either.

We still had to walk up the stairs. To the throne.

To him.

And I was there, laugh-crying, wishing I didn’t have to. That I could skip this pathetic ordeal.

I tried to turn around and leave.

Despite it only looking like a larger one of the many, many doors we’ve passed through this awful, nonsensical, poorly-designed excuse for a palace that no one could ever live in, it didn’t budge. There wasn’t any turning back. I had to go forward, because this is an action game, and violence is key.

The game takes the reigns. Link walks up to the throne, sword drawn, despite my deliberate decision to sheathe it. The narrative begins again. Midna sneers, and throws a taunt at him.

Zant sits, and smiles. Smiles like he thinks he still has some form of control, or knows full well he’s lost it.

You know, when I was working through the Palace of Twilight, I’d come to the realisation that... Zant locked himself in the throneroom. From the outside. Logistically, despite the good laugh I had over this guy locking himself in from the fucking outside, where his opponents can grab the key, he could get out easily-- teleportation and all. But even that aside, it still spoke to a level of hasty panic, that he would even keep the key outside, behind a waterfall of yet more shitty fog-crytals in the hopes that would deter them. Deter us.

How long had the guy been here, alone in that room?

We all know what happens next. Despite this being my first playthrough, I’ve probably seen this cutscene a dozen times. Zant has what amounts to an overly-dramatised autistic meltdown expositing himself and his motivations. That he was upset and felt like everything he’d worked for had been taken away from him. That he was angry, angry and fed up of being relegated to a half-existence. Midna retorts, Zant wails some more.

What gets me is that, when Ganondorf visits him, engulfs him in this flaming ball of fucked-magical-fuckery, he just. Stares. He doesn’t say anything, doesn’t do anything. Ganondorf speaks as though he’s already decided that, yes, you will do, we will make a pact and rule Everything together; I will live on through you.

Did Zant even agree to this?

I think, subconsciously or not, he accepted it, but it begs the question of whether or not Zant was capable enough to partake in it.

Whatever the answer, he’s clearly not capable enough to partake in this. This fight.

It’s laughable, that I’m expected to find victory in this.

The fight was a fucking slog, 90% of the time. Some of these boss-battles I hadn’t played in nearly two years thanks to the impromptu hiatuses I’m so fond of taking, so I didn’t know what the fuck I was meant to be doing half the time-- And when I did, it lagged to shit everytime this poor bastard fired projectiles, because I was playing on the gamepad, because why on earth would I play this on the goddamn TV? It was a sad, pitiful encounter that I had to laugh my way through and also mumble “what the fuck“ on several occasions because I guess somebody at Nintendo ate cheese before bed and the dev team were so desperate to patch something together for this guy’s sudden crisis that they threw it in-- I’m obviously having a good laugh, but What The Fuck.

I knock the guy down in the last phase of the battle, the only one where he isn’t mimicking something else and dizzies himself spinning like a hyperactive child, and the game takes the reigns again. Midna prepares her hair. I look away-- I’ve seen it before, many times before, and it’s cartoonishly grotesque for a game that relies heavily on somber semi-realism. Midna has her own crisis-- And yeah, yeah bossbabe, I feel it.

It cuts back, and there’s a Heart Container on the guy’s throne.

I.

I killed a guy, and now I’m collecting his lifeforce. I stormed into the bunged-up attempt of a fortress conjured up as a last defense by a man who’s fallen head-first into insanity, tore through any meagre security measure like butter, murder the guy when he’s having an episode, he dies a fucked up death, and then I collect his lifeforce.

Is that fucked up or what?

For all of Zelda’s endless violence, rarely do you actually kill “people.“ It’s the kind of stuff reserved for the end, for Ganondorf, or some other corrupted nigh-demigod on the brink of losing their humanity, or never having possessed it.

We kill Zant.

Zant barely puts up a fight, and we kill him. Zant gets summoned from the netherworld by Ganondorf in Hyrule Warriors; we put him there in the first place.

If we were to view this from a literal, like this shit actually happened and these characters are to be held accountable standpoint, then what we did was justified-- If not wholly, then mostly. Zant got power-hungry, committed what amounts to a bio-terroristic coup on the government, disfigured his rival, a woman notorious for her beauty, then proceeded to attempt the same thing with Hyrule, leading to the indirect death of at least the people who got transfigured into Shadow-Beasts in Kakariko, and attacks you first, then yeah, no biggie?

But I’ll be fucking real with you chief, I don’t find it... I don’t know, persuasive? Effective? Compelling, would be the best word, to think of it that way?

What Zant is, is a narrative tool. One that was set up to be this big, bad interloper who you need to Take Down and Save Everything, as per usual Zelda format. The justification for why we should hate him, if I’m going to be honest, feels contrived, most of the time. He does some bad thing off-screen, Midna gets pissed, Midna and everyone within a 12-mile radius explains why we should be pissed in a way that often feels borderline developer-hand-y-- And that’s. Well that’s how Zelda usually is.

It’s justification to commit violence.

--To be clear, I don’t say this in a political sense. I mean it in the very literal “hit/kill a guy“ sense. And in all honesty, that’s kinda inherent to the ethos of action games. We enjoy catharsis-- We enjoy taking down big things, it’s satisfying! I’ve played a little Hyrule Warriors-- Loved the feel of it. Violence is inherent to even the most benign of action games, and it is what it is.

Where it falls short for me, is that with Zant, I don’t feel like I’m taking down some great foe that I should justifiably hate.

I feel like I’m a clearly more equipped person breaking into a room, and bludgeoning a mentally ill person.

I’m autistic. I may slot in easier to NT society than most, but I am autistic, and it makes me deeply uncomfortable to see something I’ve fucking gone through be used carelessly as flavour for a prelude to violence. I have meltdowns. They’re relatively rare, and mostly in my room, alone, but I’ve also experienced one out in public. It was only sobbing, but there’s a special kind of horror, of humilation in knowing other people, strangers, family, what have you, are seeing it, and all you can think is how much you failed.

I can’t fully articulate why I cried so much during this, quite frankly, menial ordeal. I’m half-embarrassed to even talk about it-- Because then that means caring too much, and I can’t care too much over a poorly-justified character that wasn’t even intended to be sympathised with and that most of the fandom laughs at. And I can’t say I blame them.

I guess at the end of the day it comes down to the ever-present pity; some strange, childish commiseration I’d indulged in ever since I was six and cooing over Bowser and how awful everything was for him, that despite my continuous efforts, I can’t ever seem to explain.

I didn’t like the Zant fight. It felt empty,

And all did was sweep cobwebs and try to turn back.

#scrawny rambles #scrawny speaks #tloz #twilight princess #zant #back at it again with anotherhgkjhgjkhgkhj #thoughts #i'm tired of how violence is used to handle everything i guess #i feel like i'm walking around with a hammer wanting to buils a little shed and maybe set it down and make soup and hand it out #but the game goes NO bludgeoning ONLY you MUST KILL ALL THE WRONGDOERS VIOLENCE IS THE ONLY WAY-- #cAN WE MAYBE??? N O T?? FOR ONCE??? #AGAIN to get onto another thing. fuckign. mnish cap. and how e/zlo i n s i s t s the only thing to do about v/aati is kill him #you know. #his child student. that HE TUTORED WHAT THE FU C K #AND EVERYONE??? THINKS IT'S F I N E?? #(slashes employed so it doesn't show up in those tagshdjjhgjkhg) #BUT YEAH WHAT EVEN #i suppose another part of this is just how. violence is glorified so much even in everyday culture. even in progressive circles. #[especially in progressive circles.] #ugh. god i really am a soppy little lawful good pacifist aren't i??? #hhgjhfjgjl #it's 12am forgive any typos

[valley-of-the-lost]

I don't know if you watched BPA, but.. I have a question, that I don't know if you can answer this, but it's been nagging at me (this is a multi-part ask, this will be a quick rundown): A blog that used to be interested in Barbie claimed that BPA has some racist undertones; this is because, as they claimed, due to the antagonist (who has, as they put it, brown skin) tries to take over the kingdom of a white princess/queen. 1/?- Barbie Multiverse Anon

Okay, so, a quick explanation. This ask has been sitting in my inbox for a few days, and I sincerely apologize to Multiverse Anon for making them wait this long for me to weigh in on this. When I received this ask I was neck-deep in part of an art challenge that wore me out and I had not watched BPA (which I assumed was Barbie Princess Adventure) at the time, and I felt that this was the type of ask that I needed to chew on for a couple days and talk to some people before I was certain of my thoughts on it.

Now, I have done some cursory research, watched Barbie Princess Adventure myself, and bounced it off some of my friends for their take as well. Thus I will attempt to answer this to the best of my ability.

I do agree with the unknown blogger in question that Prince Johan is a brown-skinned character, and that the plot has racist implications due to the combination of this, him being the antagonist, and the fact that his kingdom lost a war to Amelia's prior to the plot to drive his motivation hence why Amelia is taking over the rule of both her own and his kingdom. However, I disagree with them that this is an ongoing theme or that there's a pattern of racist undertones in previous Barbie movies. At least from my own knowledge. 

(under a read more because I don’t want to clog people’s dashes, this is not a simple topic to unpack + the movie did some weird things I wanted to explain too)

Before I really delve into the meat of why I take this stance, I want to quickly discuss why I had to even assert that I agreed that Johan is a brown-skinned character as its own point on the off-chance someone else encounters the same initial weird impression I did. You can skip this part if you want, I'll put a triple asterisk where this ends (***).

Prior to watching BPA myself, I did some cursory research on the Barbie Movies wiki, prompted by this ask. I put together that Johan was probably the antagonist that was being referred to, but when I was on his page, his wiki picture was just this.

This was all I had to go off of at this point, because he didn't have a screenshot gallery for me to cross-reference him throughout different points in the movie. So the conclusion I drew at the time was "he just looks like a tan white guy". This impression was reinforced by his light eyes and recycled Ken face model. I cross-referenced this with some friends, and we came to the conclusion that at best he looks racially ambiguous, with no reason to think he was a character of color unless there was other indication about his race in the movie itself.

And then I watched the movie. And changed my mind when I saw what he looked like in these scenes.

Johan looks noticeably darker than he did in his single wiki picture, especially when next to other more obviously white characters like Barbie and Amelia. His skin tone is closer to Alphonso whom I would call a brown character pretty confidently in the same movie (I wanted to minimize comparisons across movies to eliminate the possible different variables that would come with it).

While this might not be as noticeable to other people casually watching the movie, I found this a bit jarring myself because I was focusing on his skin tone in particular due to the subject of the ask and my initial impression from the wiki picture when he was arguably at his lightest in the whole movie, as well as when he was introduced he was at his darkest because it was set at night. Also the way the animation team decided to shade him to convey that its nighttime confused me because he looked a lot darker than I thought someone of what I assumed his skin tone would look. And then the next scene with him and Barbie further confused me, because he suddenly got this reddish undertone that really highlighted their difference in skin color.

(Barbie’s hands are on the left and Johan’s are on the right for sake of direct comparison)

Finally, in his last scenes in the movie, Johan's skin tone is most like that of his wiki picture's. Darker than Barbie's when they stand in the same shot but light enough that he could've passed as a tan white guy. What cemented my confusion is that he still looks like this in the throne room, where he was before when dancing with Barbie so it should reasonably have the same lighting and bring out that reddish undertone, but no he still looks like that. So my final conclusion on him was that since he looks like a brown-skinned character in around 2/3s of his scenes and there's a 2D painting of him in the bg when Barbie and Amelia are kidnapped, that he is indeed a brown-skinned character and the animation department probably fucked up their lighting which messed with how uniform his skin tone looked across scenes. ***

Now that I've explained my process of confusion and then final agreement that Johan is indeed brown-skinned, let's discuss how this compounds with other elements to create a rather unfortunate picture. I'm afraid its a bit worse than Anon described.

First off, the added context of the history between Amelia's kingdom of Floravia and his kingdom of Johanistan. Prior to the movie proper, these two countries fought in a war and Johanistan eventually surrendered to Floravia. The two countries signed a treaty that said that after her coronation, Amelia would rule both Floravia and Johanistan.

There is a severe lack of critical details about the war itself, such as what caused it in the first place, which really works to the film’s disadvantage, since the absence of clarity does little to clear up the questionable implications of what is known about the relationship between Floravia and Johanistan.

Amelia’s kingdom is the one that took over Johan’s initially, since they won the war and Johanistan would be ruled by Floravia’s queen, with the implication being that she’d depose Johan’s family, the original ruling family. While the lack of details makes it so it can’t quite be said that Floravia is colonizing Johanistan, it also means that it can’t be said that Floravia is not colonizing Johanistan. What is known about the war is very broadly reminiscent of tactics white people have used to colonize other countries, such as using a war to depose the original royal family for the colonizer’s own gain (the US colonizing Hawaii by staging a coup against their ruling family because the white plantation owners got mad) and putting the other country in a disadvantageous position with a treaty (Opium Wars). This would probably just be viewed as normal Kingdom vs. Kingdom politics if... well Johan wasn’t a character of color.

Combined with viewing this movie through the lens of real-life racial biases (which people are predisposed to do because we're inherently based in reality), the likely conclusion drawn is that this white ruler (Amelia) is effectively ousting a character of color (Johan) and his family out of power and force-assimilating his country, and there's simply not enough clarity about previous events before the movie takes place to dispel it sufficiently.

This also poisons the plot proper because Johan's motivation is to take advantage of the law that the rule of both kingdoms falls to him if Amelia doesn't show up to coronation and regain rule of his own kingdom and Floravia as a nice plus. The intention was probably to show him as greedy for wanting lone rule of Floravia and Johanistan, taken together, it honestly comes across as the movie villianizing a character of color because he wants to regain sovereignty of his own kingdom from a white ruler. Its completely understandable that Amelia wouldn't want to lose her own kingdom especially coming off of war, but also her kingdom is also the one ousting out the previous royal family of Johanistan without giving any good reason why they can't compromise.

The effect would be somewhat mitigated if another character of color had a similarly prominent role as Johan on the side of Barbie, but there's really not. The closest I'd argue would be Alphonso, but he doesn't have equal plot relevance. This does, in my opinion, make Barbie Princess Adventure's plot give off racist vibes like that unknown blogger said. But I do not agree with them that there's a "pattern" of racist undertones in other Barbie movies.

Due to the lack of details of what exactly they meant by a "pattern" of racist undertones, I am assuming they mean a consistent pattern of racism across the movies, for example the movies consistently dipping into anti-Asian sentiments with their villains, or their plots inherently having racist vibes woven into them like I just talked about in BPA.

Despite the Barbie movies occasionally dipping into offensive territory, in my personal experience I have not observed a pattern of racist undertones or consistent racism targeting a specific group. I acknowledge that I could fully be wrong and a lot of things could have slipped past my notice, especially since I have not seen all the movies, but from the ones I have seen I have not observed a pattern with regards to this. However, I will point out the offensive/iffy things in the movies that I know of, with varying degrees of detail depending on how much I can remember. This is by no means a full compendium of all the problematic stuff Barbie films have touched on but these are the ones I am aware of at present.

Barbie of Swan Lake - Antisemitism. There was a TikTok on this somewhere that discussed this more in detail that I can't find but will link if I do, but what I do remember was Rothbart was given an extremely large nose which is reminiscent of the "Jewish nose" ethnic stereotype. Also there was something about his name and Tchaikovsky himself being antisemitic and those views being reflected in his ballet. I don't remember all the details I'm sorry and google wasn't giving me much.

Barbie in the Princess and the Pauper - Antisemitism. Preminger hits a couple of antisemitic stereotypes in the movie, such as having a noticeably larger, hooked nose compared to the other male characters which is reminiscent of the ethnic stereotype of the "Jewish nose" and being greedy and corrupt (literally mining every singe piece of gold out of the mines) which is a stereotype of Jewish people. His name is also of Jewish origin which by itself wouldn’t be a necessarily suspicious thing but combined with those other tropes it does add up.

Barbie Diaries - Tia, a black woman and also the only one with curly hair in the cast, making an iffy comment about "getting the tangles out of her hair". POC with different hair textures have gotten a lot of racist shit for their hair so even though this is a small oneoff comment seeing Tia talk about her hair like this in a negative manner rubbed some of my friends with curly hair wrong.

Barbie in a Mermaid Tale 2 - Polynesian racism. Another friend of mine who is Hawaiian brought this up in Mermaid Tale 2, when Merliah and co decided to have a luau (which is a traditional Hawaiian party or feast usually accompanied by entertainment) in Australia. My friend found it a bit iffy they were doing this when most everyone is white, but what they found worse was when poi was being served in the luau. Poi is a traditional Polynesian dish, but in the movie they claimed it was an Australian and Hawaiian dish, which its not, there’s no Australia in its origin. And then there was a "gag" where the people eating the poi were gagging on it, so essentially this movie was making a joke out of another culture's aesthetics and food.

Barbie Princess Adventure - Reread the above text.

Maybe my sample size isn’t big enough but I’m not seeing a pattern or a trend here, which in my opinion would be a larger cause for concern because for these movies their issues are largely contained to their specific movie, and a pattern would be indication of a wider problem. Maybe you see a pattern I don’t, that would be completely valid.

Now, do I think this means you can’t enjoy Barbie Princess Adventure? No, I’d be a bit of a hypocrite if I said that because I still enjoy some of the Barbie movies I listed above that I just said also have problematic elements (Swan Lake and Princess and the Pauper specifically). But I do think it is good to at the very least be aware of it, hear it out, keep it in mind. At the same time I understand why people would be turned off by this topic because they’re here to have fun riding the serotonin of childhood nostalgia and not delve into discourse.

But I hope I answered your question to your satisfaction Multiverse Anon! I’m going to go take a nap now I’m tired 😭.

#ask of the lost #barbie #barbie princess adventure #tw discussion of racism