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callmeblake · 3 years

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10 THINGS YOU PROBABLY DIDN’T KNOW ABOUT MY CHEMICAL ROMANCE’S ‘DANGER DAYS’

The future is bulletproof, but how’s your ‘Danger Days’ knowledge?

By Ali Cooper-November 20, 2020

It’s been an entire decade since the Killjoys first made some noise on 2010’s Danger Days: The True Lives Of The Fabulous Killjoys. The aftermath is secondary, ultimately legendary and a timely reminder that My Chemical Romance can turn their hands to any far-fetched concept and produce a timeless, genre-defining album in the process.

For every year we’ve run away with Party Poison and co., fighting off Better Living Industries, we’ve uncovered one lesser-known fact about this neon My Chem era—and the final full album from the New Jersey boys—in hopes that it may not be their last record for much longer.

Frank Iero teased the new Future Violents EP for longer than you realize

My Chem didn’t intend for “Look Alive, Sunshine” to make sense

The immortal words of Dr. Death Defying’s introduction to the Danger Days era were a roll call to the post-apocalyptic world where the Killjoys reside. And they’re perplexing, to say the least. What does “Louder than God’s revolver and twice as shiny” even mean, anyway? The good news is MCR didn’t intend for us to understand it in the first place. Gerard Way confirmed to Billboard that the language play in this opening track mirrors that of the novel-to-film classic A Clockwork Orange. Teenage gang members in Anthony Burgess’ novel use a nonsense language called Nadsat. It’s just loose enough for readers to understand its base meaning but not how it reaches the point. So that explains why this introductory narration has kept us scratching our heads for years.

The Black Parade is dead

Blink and you’ll miss the sneaky reference to My Chem’s previous album, The Black Parade. A skeleton half-submerged in the desert sands wears a dusty Parade-era jacket in the chaos of the “Na Na Na” video. But this glimpse of their past isn’t just a visual depiction of “The Black Parade is dead” sentiment. What we’re actually seeing is the burial of the memory of drummer Bob Bryar. He left the lineup during the writing of Danger Days, but they don’t brush over the loss of a key member in their rise to success. Instead, the passing nod recognizes and celebrates Bryar’s role and lasting effect on MCR’s past, present and future.

MCR meets The Sims

We’ve heard the rapid-fire anthem “Na Na Na” in many shapes and forms over the last decade. But there’s one alternate version we never expected. My Chem re-recorded the song in the fictional Simlish language for the video game The Sims 3: Late Night. If you’ve ever wondered what the classic track would sound like if you couldn’t understand English, look no further. We wouldn’t recommend listening to this gibberish version while drunk. Still, it’s definitely an unusual addition to the legacy of a song that broke the mainstream.

“Bulletproof Heart” provided the concept

After exhausting themselves through the process for The Black Parade, My Chem swore their next effort wouldn’t feature a concept. They planned to return to their raw talents as songwriters without novelty costumes or fleeting gimmicks. However, that all changed when the band wrote “Bulletproof Heart,” which handed them their next grand concept: futuristic runaways. And it sounded like a distant echo from the existential Black Parade days morphing into the laser-beam Killjoys era. Gerard confirmed to Billboard that this epic track showed MCR how to use their experience in high concepts to the best effect for their fourth record.

“SING” rebooted Danger Days

One of the defining anthems from Danger Days, Gerard confirmed to Billboard that the writing process that culminated with “SING” was the catalyst for the band’s decision to scrap their progress on the fourth album and start all over again. It was a defiant track devoted to standing up and being heard. And it brought life to the new incarnation of My Chem was given the rousing cover treatment on Glee. Plus, the band recorded a version entitled “#SINGItforJapan” to raise funds for the Red Cross relief efforts after the 2011 Japan earthquake.

California 2019

The band proved fans right about their theory of MCR’s return in 2019, the same year the Danger Days universe is set in. But they also paid tribute to something other than their own forward-thinking genius by placing the Killjoys in an alternate dystopian universe nine years in the future. The setting was inspired by one other bleak, post-apocalyptic vision of California in the year 2019: Blade Runner. It turns out we have Harrison Ford’s 1982 sci-fi classic to thank for MCR’s futuristic interpretation that involved the entire band dying in the field of combat with robots.

“Party Poison” is a love song to rock and metal

The anti-party party anthem “Party Poison” brought the unbridled energy to the Danger Days era. And it included a plethora of rock and metal influences. Originally titled “Death Before Disco,” the midpoint of the album not pays tribute to both Ray Toro’s inspirations from the vibrant MC5 and Gerard’s favorite Judas Priest song, “Living After Midnight.” Gerard also mentioned the outstanding influence of Bruce Springsteen on Danger Days. He explained to Rolling Stone that writing “Party Poison” was like discovering their own show-stopping alternative to “Born To Run.”

Kobra Kid’s helmet

While fighting off Draculoids and Exterminators, the Killjoys needed all the luck they could get. Kobra Kid was of course there to help with his iconic helmet sporting the words “good luck.“ This design feature was a sneaky nod to the space-based Nintendo video game Star Fox, where a screen appears and a voice says “good luck” before every mission. With this 1993 callback, Mikey Way’s Danger Days alter ego kept a classic sci-fi shooter reference close to his heart. Of course, the positive message didn’t save his character from death, but it’s the thought that counts.

The origins of “DESTROYA”

Gerard once described “DESTROYA” as “the hardest song the band have ever done.” And he later revealed to Billboard that the Hindu Holi festival inspired its lyrics. Known as the “festival of colors” and a positive social event for friends and family to repair broken relationships and strengthen connections, this traditional event in the Indian calendar encapsulates all the neon fun-loving vibrance of Danger Days. According to Billboard, every member of the band took to the drums for the recording of “DESTROYA.” Their goal: To bring out the vivacity and togetherness of one of the most upbeat songs on the record.

Gerard hinted at their return during

Danger Days

Eagle-eyed MCR fans leave no stone unturned when it comes to speculating the now-factual return of the emo icons. The MCRmy uncovered a hint of the band’s foreshadowed return by way of an olive green jacket Gerard wore during promotion for their fourth album, suggesting that a sigil patch that appeared on his shoulder spells out My Chemical Romance. We saw Gerard sporting this jacket on numerous occasions before the band’s hiatus. And in hindsight, he also wore this jacket for their reunion show in Los Angeles in 2019. Was the singer always hinting what to expect when My Chem eventually returned?

#there are pics and vids there but I am lazy and was more interested in the text #mcr #my chemical romance #danger days era #killjoys #alternative press

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oh-mother-of-darkness · 4 years

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Timeline: Batman

google doc / ao3

This is my best attempt at a post-crisis timeline based on age-- specifically Bruce’s age every time he adopted and/or met one of his children.

List of events:

Bruce’s parents die

Bruce becomes Batman

Dick’s parents die

Dick becomes Robin

Jason becomes Robin and is adopted

Jason dies

Tim becomes Robin

Cass appears

Dick is adopted

Tim is adopted

Cass is adopted

Damian becomes Robin

I’ll be citing my work by issue and panel. This isn’t my most organized work, and I don’t know how well tumblr will let me translate it, so I do recommend the google doc. I imagine the image quality here won’t be great.

Notes:

This is a post-crisis timeline (1986-2011). I’ll be referencing a few pre-crisis panels, but I won’t be touching the New 52 or anything after it. That’s a different game of ball with its own, extremely bad, timeline.

Crisis on Infinite Earths is a 1985-1986 series that rebooted the DC timeline and altered some backstories, including Jason’s. Pre-crisis, his backstory was almost identical to Dick’s. Post-crisis, he changed to the “steal the wheels off the Batmobile” origin. Anything written before 1986 is a weak source for my purposes.

My original question centered around Bruce’s age through the process of meeting and acquiring his children. In this timeline, those children are (1) Dick Grayson, (2) Jason Todd, (3) Cassandra Cain, (4) Tim Drake, and (5) Damian Wayne. I was envisioning an interview where the kids explain their family timeline to outsiders. I did not anticipate the project taking this long.

We’re talking about 72 years of content here, which means decades of contradiction, conflation, and rewrites. I’m pretty satisfied with my work product, but please understand that there are no perfect answers. I’m going to cite my sources, and I’ll do my best to explain why I chose those sources specifically, but it’s pretty likely that for every panel I pull, there will be others with different numbers. We’re all going to have to live with that.

Event timeline

*I’m defining Jason’s age by the time elapsed since his birth, but you could make an argument for using time he has been alive, which is, of course, different. That’s why the parentheses are there.

Age differences

As Robin

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Bruce’s parents die

Pretty consistently, Bruce is written as eight years old the night his parents died.

Detective Comics #0 (1994)

This is a zero issue where Bruce thinks back on his origin story. It was written long after Crisis on Infinite Earths (1986), and I tend to give a lot of weight to ages written in summaries of past plot lines, my reasoning being that it’s easier to be consistent in one issue than it is to be consistent through a month to month story.

Bruce first appeared as an adult in Detective Comics #27 (1939), and the Waynes were already dead at that point, so flashbacks are the only available material anyway.

Gotham Knights #6 (2000)

The text is Hugo Strange talking about Bruce, and the image is Tim and Dick playing at Wayne Enterprises.

I’ll take a second here to note that I did find at least one alternate age for Bruce— in Superman/Batman Secret Files & Origins (2003), Bruce was 10 when his parents died. I’m disregarding that in favor of the stronger 8 year old timeline, especially in light of Batman #404 (1987).

Batman #404 is the beginning of Batman: Year One, which was explicitly written to clarify the Batman timeline post-crisis, and it’s the basis of most of my calculations for Bruce and Dick’s ages.

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Bruce becomes Batman

According to Year One, Bruce was 26 years old when he became Batman. I’m using his age at his parents’ deaths, his age when he returned to Gotham, and his 18 year timeline.

Batman #404 puts Bruce at age 25 when he returned to Gotham in January.

Batman #404 (1987)

Bruce gives his dramatic, “Yes, Father, I will become a bat,” line in March. In the same scene, he says that it has been 18 years since his parents’ deaths. Knowing that they died when Bruce was eight, that puts Bruce at 26 years old the day he became Batman, which makes sense considering Bruce’s birthday is usually set at February 19th.

He was 25 in January, turned 26 in February, and became Batman at 26, 18 years after his parents’ death.

Batman #404 (1987)

Post-crisis, DC built timelines off the “Year” model. Year One is Batman’s beginning, and events after that are measured by how far away they are from the year Bruce became Batman. I’ll be using the Year model for Dick’s life events next.

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Dick’s parents die

The Graysons died in Year Two. Using the Year Model, Dick was 12 when his parents died, and Bruce was 37.

Year timelines appear a fair amount, especially in issues titled “Secret Files & Origins.” I pulled this bit from Batman Secret Files & Origins (1997) because it was the easiest to screenshot.

Batman Secret Files & Origins (1997)

Year Two would place Bruce at 27 years old. I’m calculating Dick’s age backwards, based on him being 13 years old during Year Three.

Batman Secret Files & Origins (1997)

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Dick becomes Robin

Dick became Robin in Year Three, when he was 13 years old and Bruce was 28. I’m using two different issues to calculate the number.

Batman #441 (1989)

Batman #441 is from Tim’s introduction story. It takes place “months” after Jason’s death. We’ll get to that part. In Batman #441, Tim asked Dick to be Robin again in order to help Bruce, who was visibly unstable after Jason’s death. Dick says that he can’t go back to being Robin, just like he can’t go back to being 13 years old. The strong implication there is that Dick became Robin at 13, which corresponds to Dick’s statements in Batman #416 (1988).

In Batman #416, Dick as Nightwing returns to confront Bruce about Jason becoming Robin. He says that he was Robin for six years, and he stopped being Robin at 19.

Batman #416 (1988)

If Dick stopped being Robin at 19, after 6 years, that would put him at 13 when he debuted as Robin, the same number from Batman #441 (1989).

Dick was 13 during Year Three, so 12 during Year Two, the year his parents died. Those numbers answer the first bit of my original question. I wanted to know how old Dick and Bruce were when Dick became his child. It’s a bit more of a complicated question for Dick, since he was originally Bruce’s ward, then adopted as an adult.

Based on the timeline so far, Dick became Bruce’s ward at 12 years old, while Bruce was 27.

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Jason becomes Robin and is adopted

As previously discussed (see Notes), Jason’s timeline is complicated by Crisis on Infinite Earths (1985-1986). Pre-crisis, Jason first appeared in Batman #336 (1983) as a former circus acrobat very similar to Dick.

Jason’s origin story reboots at Batman #408 (1987), which describes the switch-off between Dick and Jason. I’m building a lot of my timeline off of that issue. At the beginning, Dick gets shot by the Joker, and as Bruce carries him away, the media ask if Robin is dead. Dick isn’t dead, but back at the manor, Bruce decides to retire Robin as a role, based on the idea that crimefighting is too dangerous for a child.

Batman #408 (1987)

This version is more or less from Bruce’s point of view, but there’s a contrasting version from Dick’s point of view later, in Batman #416 (1987). That one has a significantly different tone, and I already cited it once (page 13) because Dick talks about his age and the amount of time he was Robin.

Batman #408 (1987)

The second part of the issue takes place “weeks” later. Bruce goes to Crime Alley to mourn his parents on the anniversary of their death. He comes back to find that somebody stole the wheels off the Batmobile. The somebody was Jason, and by the end of Batman #409 (1987), Bruce is calling Jason “Robin.”

Batman #408 (1987) seems to divide Dick’s departure and Jason’s introduction by only “weeks,” in the post-crisis reboot. Dick’s version of the story in Batman #416 (1987) is much less charitable to Bruce— instead of ending on a panel of Bruce smiling, it shows the aftermath of Dick in tears as Bruce walks away. Dick goes on to describe leaving the house, going to college for a semester, then dropping out. According to Dick, Bruce didn’t even say goodbye.

Batman #416 (1987)

I don’t think the stories are contradictory; they’re just different experiences of the same events, separated by only eight issues. Dick tells us that he was 19 when he left Wayne Manor, and Bruce chooses his new Robin “weeks” later.

As a summary, we know that Bruce’s parents died when he was eight, and that 18 years passed before he became Batman at 26. One year later, Dick’s parents died while Bruce was 27. One year after that, Dick became Robin at the age of 13. From those facts, Bruce is 15 years older than Dick.

All of my calculations of Bruce’s age are based off of the age gap between him and Dick. Dick was 19 when Jason became Robin, so we know that at that time, Bruce was 34. We also know that at that time, Jason was 12.

I can’t show a source for that number because it appears on the letter page of Batman #408 (1987), Jason’s introduction.

Even after a significant amount of investigation, I can’t find a copy of the letter page, but it’s cited by enough secondary sources for me to be comfortable using it. That issue is specifically written to show Jason’s origin, so it makes sense that it would contain Jason’s age at inception, even if the number wasn’t in the actual exposition.

From Jason being 12, we can establish a seven-year age gap between Jason and Dick, who was 19 at the time. Now we know Bruce, Dick, and Jason’s ages, and the age differences between them.

Back to my original question— when did Bruce acquire Jason? We know that Bruce was 34 when Jason became his ward, and Jason was 12. The next question, however, is when did Bruce adopt Jason? On this one, I’m making an educated guess.

Again we have to differentiate between pre-crisis and post-crisis timelines. Pre-crisis, there’s a full storyline about the fact that Bruce did not adopt Jason, although not for lack of trying. In Batman #374 (1984), the Child Welfare Bureau investigates Bruce when it notices that Bruce has not adopted Jason— and is not even, in fact, his legal guardian.

Batman #374 (1984)

The rest of the storyline is about Jason’s custody. A villain named Natalia Knight (Nocturna) adopts Jason in an attempt to get Bruce to marry her in order to become Jason’s father. In the court scene in Batman #377 (1984), Bruce says that he filed to adopt Jason sometime beforehand, although it’s unclear to me whether he means he filed between those issues or the CWB documents were incomplete.

Natalia does adopt Jason in Batman #378 (1984), and he briefly lives with her before returning to Wayne Manor in Batman #381 (1985), directly before the reboot.

I’m including all of that for two reasons: first, I do think it’s important to clarify both this version and the post-crisis version I’m about to address. Second, I spent years under the impression that Bruce adopted Jason pre-crisis because of one, well-known scene.

Batman #377 (1984)

Batman #378 (1984)

Batman #381 (1985)

Donna Troy gets married in Tales of the Teen Titans #50 (1985). At the wedding, Bruce and Dick have a conversation about Jason and about their own relationship. A few of those panels get spread around because they contain what I would consider a defining moment between Dick and Bruce.

I’m certainly not complaining about the amount of times I’ve seen the wedding conversation, but I think that, in regards to Jason, seeing just those panels has created a misconception.

Tales of the Teen Titans #50 (1985)

Without context, it looks, at least to me, like Dick is saying that Bruce has adopted Jason pre-crisis, which isn’t true. This issue takes place between the Natalia adoption in Batman #378 (1984) and Jason’s return to the manor in Batman #381 (1985), and the panels directly before the exchange make that clear. I just didn’t see those panels until I looked through the whole issue for this project.

I’m reasonably certain that in the past, I publicly cited this issue as evidence of Jason’s adoption, and I was wrong about that. [Note: As it turns out, I was only partially wrong. See section Correction.]

Tales of the Teen Titans #50 (1985)

As we see, the wedding conversation is in the context of the Natalia adoption. With that cleared up, and with the pre-crisis timeline filled out, let’s move to post-crisis.

In my brief read-through of Batman #404-427 (1987-1988), I didn’t find any direct references to Jason’s status. Those issues begin at the reboot and end at Jason’s death. However, Dick and Jason’s statements after the fact do tell us that post-crisis, Bruce did adopt Jason.

In Batman #436 (1989), Dick returns to the manor in the direct aftermath of Jason’s death, and while he is there, he sees that Bruce removed any trace of Jason from the house. There aren’t any trophies in the Batcave, and there aren’t any pictures of Jason on the nightstand displaying Bruce’s family photos.

Dick says that Jason was Bruce’s son.

Batman #436 (1989)

I think it’s fair to ask whether Dick is being literal here, because even if Bruce hadn’t legally adopted Jason, it would still be more than appropriate to call them father and son. I’m not going to place my opinion solely on this kind of statement, even if it does appear pretty regularly from 1988 to the end of the timeline.

Green Arrow/Black Canary #4 (2007)

We get a more definite answer later, during Tim’s first appearance. In Tim’s origin story, he deduces Batman and Robin’s secret identities after he sees footage of Robin doing a type of flip that only the Flying Graysons could do. Tim was at the circus the night Dick’s parents died, so he saw Dick do the flip there, then saw Dick become an orphan.

Because Tim knew that Dick was the first Robin, he correctly identified Bruce as Batman and Jason as the second Robin. He tells Dick all of this in Batman #441 (1989).

Batman #441 (1989)

Tim does specifically use the word “adopts” here, and that’s good enough for me. The last part is guesswork— I don’t know for certain how old Jason and Bruce were when the adoption took place, but I’m electing to say Jason was 12, the same age as he was when he became Robin.

I picked that number both out of convenience and because Tim seems to be putting Jason’s adoption and the second Robin’s appearance at around the same time. With that in mind, I think that Jason was 12 years old both when he became Robin and when Bruce adopted him. Using the age gap we already established, that would put Bruce at age 34.

Circling back to my original question, Dick became Bruce’s ward when Dick was 12 and Bruce was 27. Jason became Bruce’s ward, then adoptive son when Jason was 12 and Bruce was 34.

At this point in the timeline, Bruce is 34 with one former ward and one adopted son.

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Correction

A few days after I wrote my section about Jason’s appearance and adoption, I realized that I was missing a panel citation in my discussion of Jason’s death. The panel is from New Titan #55 (1989), and you’ll see me cite it when I talk about Jason’s death certificate.

New Titans #55 (1989) is the issue where Dick, who is with the Teen Titans, finds out about Jason’s death. While I was combing through the issue for the panels I wanted, I reread a scene I had completely forgotten about. Dick goes back to the manor to speak to Bruce, and it doesn’t go well.

New Titans #55 (1989)

I have three comments here. First, I do think this scene is inconsistent with the simultaneous story in the Batman title. In this version, Dick and Bruce have a very aggressive confrontation, but in Batman #436 (1989), Dick appears to be returning to the manor for the first time since Jason died, and there isn’t any reference to a prior fight.

Putting that aside, Bruce does explicitly say that he adopted Jason, and that’s more, stronger verification of a post-crisis adoption. Lastly, it’s pretty clear that Bruce and Dick are talking about the wedding scene.

I already explained that the wedding scene is pre-crisis, and in the original text, that conversation is about Bruce wanting to, but not being able to, adopt Jason. New Titans #55 (1989) carries the wedding scene into post-crisis canon, changing the language in the process. In this version, Bruce has adopted Jason.

I was still wrong about the wedding scene because in the past, I used it as evidence of a pre-crisis adoption. It isn’t pre-crisis evidence, but it is, in a roundabout way, evidence of the post-crisis adoption. I wanted to clear that up before I move on to Jason’s death.

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Jason dies

Jason’s death is by far the shakiest point on my timeline, but I’ve chosen to put him at 15 the day he died in Batman #427 (1988).

I think it’s safe to say that Jason was either 14 or 15 when he died, and my basic conclusion is that running numbers doesn’t give me a definite answer. There’s a cop-out option based on an extraordinarily poor source, and I’m taking the cop-out.

The general consensus seems to be that Jason was 15 at his death, citation to Jason’s death certificate. Jason’s death certificate appears in two different places, and I think most folks conflate the two.

To my knowledge, the only copy of Jason’s death certificate in full appears in The Batman Files (2011), where it does list Jason’s age as 15.

The Batman Files (2011)

Now there is a partial copy in Batman Annual #25 (2006), which I would argue is a very reliable reference when it comes to Jason. That issue is part of the Under the Red Hood story, the one where Jason returns to Gotham for the first time after his resurrection. In fact, the specific annual issue has a timeline for Jason’s events counting forward from his death.

Here’s the problem: the issue doesn’t say his age at death. The partial copy of his death certificate looks like this.

Batman Annual #25 (2006)

I think that when most folks remember a death certificate, they think of this one, the one from a very important issue, instead of The Batman Files (2011) which, as noted, is a very bad source.

I have three issues with The Batman Files (2011): the format, the publishing date, and the other information on the certificate. First, The Batman Files (2011) isn’t a comic book at all. It’s a commemorative book published in collaboration with DC in 2011. Now I don’t think that fact completely removes the book as a source, but it certainly damages its value as one.

My problem with that date, 2011, is that it’s the year the New 52 premiered. I called it a commemorative book because it’s meant to be a look back at a fully complete timeline, a kind of “this is us saying goodbye” product. The date and format alone make me hesitant to cite the certificate, but on top of that, the certificate is inconsistent with prior canon.

I am intimately familiar with retcons and conflicting numbers in the DC timeline. I made a point at the beginning of this paper to tell you that although this is my best attempt to make a cohesive timeline, assuming that I can carve out a cohesive timeline is fundamentally flawed.

I’m not saying that a single contradictory number is enough to make me disregard a source. I am saying that in this particular conversation about an already suspect source, I’m going to take inconsistency into account.

In New Titans #55 (1989), the issue from Corrections, Dick finds out about Jason’s death because a team member notices Jason’s status is set at “unknown.” Dick uses Bruce’s passcode to access restricted information, and he and the Titans see that Jason’s real status is “deceased.”

The death certificate in The Batman Files (2011) marks Jason’s height at 4’6 and his age at 15. In contrast, Dick’s scene puts Jason at 5’4, and its only reference to Jason’s age is a very relatable question from Donna. “How old was he, anyway?”

New Titans #55 (1989)

There’s a substantial difference between the two heights, and I think it’s also worth noting that for a 15 year old American male, 4’6 is in the 0.1 height percentile. In the past, I and many others have tried to justify that height along the lines of Jason being malnourished or similarly afflicted. Personally, I liked the parallel between this height for Jason and Damian’s height at his own death in 2013, and I know I’ve talked about that in the past.

I’m not criticizing anyone for using the 4’6 number, but I do think the unlikelihood of a 15 year old that size is worth bringing up.

In summary, The Batman Files (2011) is so bad of a source that I’m only willing to use it as a last resort. Unfortunately, it’s time for a last resort.

I mentioned a timeline in Batman Annual #25 (2006) that counts forward from Jason’s death. I’m not going to use image cites here because they’re just isolated text boxes labeled either “six months later” or “one year later.”

Using that timeline, we know that Jason’s resurrection took place six months after his death. He spent one year in a coma, then one year on the street, then one year with the League of Assassins. Finally, he spent a nebulous time training before he returned to Gotham.

We know that Jason was gone for a minimum of three and a half years, then whatever time “training” includes. Personally, I’m applying my best attempt at comic logic to say he was missing for somewhere between three and four years.

To understand the next bit, I need to point out that from Jason’s death on, I’m going to be using Tim’s age to track time in the same way I’ve been using Dick’s so far.

As a reminder, I know what age Bruce was when Dick became Robin (28), and I know Dick’s age at the same point (13), so I know there’s a 15 year age difference. As I track Dick’s age through the timeline, I add 15 to get Bruce’s.

In the same way, I know what age Dick was when Jason became Robin (19), and I know Jason’s age at the same point (12), so I know there’s a 7 year age difference. I can use that number ongoing.

I know that Tim was 13 when he made his first appearance as Robin, and I’ll get into that in the next section. After that, I’m placing Dick, Tim, and Cass’s adoptions based on Tim’s age.

To do that, I need to know how much older Dick is than Tim, and I can only get that by knowing Jason’s age at his death, sort of.

How long was Jason Robin? If I had that information, I could establish Jason’s age by counting up from 12, the age when he became Robin, then establish Tim’s age from there.

I can’t really answer that question. There is a panel from Batman #436 where Dick, apparently in his first time at the manor since Jason’s death says the following.

Batman #436 (1989)

My instinctual interpretation is it’s been two years since he stopped being Robin at 19, making Dick 21 and Jason 14. In my opinion, that’s straightforward plain language, but it seems like I’m in the minority on that one, and most folks read it as Dick saying it’s been two years since he was last at the manor. We know from Batman #416 (1988) that Dick’s last visit to the manor was 18 months after Dick left home.

Batman #136 (1988)

I think the most honest thing to say is that Jason was Robin for an indeterminate amount of time that was somewhere between two and three years. I don’t know which number is closer. I also, if you remember, think that Jason was gone from Gotham for somewhere between three and four years, but I don’t know where in that range the real number is.

Here’s why absolutely nothing I’ve said in the past seven pages matters: I need to build my timeline based on the age gap between Jason and Tim.

I don’t know how old Tim was when Jason died.

I know how old Tim was at his first appearance as Robin, and that’s a different number.

We’ll finish this conversation in a moment.

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Tim becomes Robin

We begin, thankfully, with a straightforward fact. Tim’s first storyline spans Batman #440-442 (1989). The arc is called A Lonely Place of Dying, and we already talked about it. Tim, having watched Batman and Robin from the shadows for years, comes forwards in the aftermath of Jason’s death in an attempt to convince Dick to become Robin for a second time.

Batman #441 (1989)

We know that Tim was 13 years old at the time, but I do need to clarify exactly what time that was— an indeterminate amount of time after Jason’s death.

The word that pops up a couple of time in Tim’s first arc is “months,” from Tim and Two-Face. How many months? Who’s to say.

Batman #442 (1989)

So, from the top. We know that Bruce was eight when his parents died, 26 when he became Batman, 27 when he met Dick, 28 when Dick became Robin, and 34 when he met Jason.

Dick was 12 when he met Bruce, 13 when he became Robin, 19 when he left home and Jason became Robin.

Jason was 12 when he became Robin.

Bruce is 15 years older than Dick. Bruce is 22 years older than Jason.

Dick is 7 years older than Jason.

How long was Jason Robin? Unknown, but somewhere between two and three years. At that point, he died. “Months” after that, Tim was 13.

Here, we need to acknowledge that Jason could have been either 14 or 15 at his death, and at the same time, Tim was either 12 or 13. We need to know how far they are apart to calculate Tim’s age in relation to Jason, Dick, and Bruce— ongoing, we will always know exactly how old Tim is, so (if we know how far apart Jason and Tim are) we will always know Bruce, Dick, and Jason’s age from there.

How much older than Tim is Jason? Somewhere between one and three years, I guess, but I can’t really go beyond a well-researched guess. In my opinion, there isn’t a straightforward answer for this one.

Having presented my facts, here is my conclusion. Jason was 15 when he died. At the same time, Tim was 13. They are two years apart.

Why? To begin, I’m more comfortable using the number we already have for Tim, 13, than I am dropping him to 12 on the mere possibility that he could have been 12.

Second, even though The Batman Files (2011) is a terrible source, it does at least sort of indicate that the official DC position is a Jason who was 15 years old at his death.

Third, visually speaking, Jason looks closer to 15 than 14 at his death. Is that good evidence? No, absolutely not. Comic book art is definitionally variable, but I am going to pull a few panels for you to look over.

Batman #427 (1988)

Finally, I feel that Jason and Tim are, in later works, treated as if they are different ages. I’m not going to go into much detail on that one because it is purely a personal reaction, but I would refer to Teen Titans #29 (2005) as an example. That issue has Jason and Tim’s first meeting, after Jason comes to the tower specifically to attack Tim.

Teen Titans #27 (2005)

Another well-known issue to check out is Teen Titans #47 (2007).

My basic position is that there are so many ways, all uncertain, to slice Jason and Tim’s ages that I can take my pick. I chose the ones that most closely mirror later canon, fall most squarely into the possible range, and feel the most intuitively right.

They also have the benefit of simplicity, which was very much a factor.

Don’t agree with me? Fair enough. I think I’ve given you enough information to make an educated judgment, and I’ve also gone ahead and made a timeline in the alternative. In this one, Jason was 14 at death, and he and Tim are only one year apart.

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In the Alternative

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Cass appears

Having progressed beyond Jason and Tim’s age gap, we reenter simple canon. I hope you’re as pleased as I am.

Cass was 17 years old at her first appearance, which we can establish easily based on two different issues. Cass first appears in Batman #567 (1999), during an arc called No Man’s Land. At the time, she is working for Barbara Gordon in the aftermath of an earthquake that destroyed most of Gotham. We learn Cass’s backstory through that issue.

Cass’s biological father is David Cain, a villain, who raised Cass in isolation, never exposing her to a verbal language or allowing any kind of socialization. By comic book logic, her upbringing gave her a near-superhuman ability to understand and anticipate physical actions, as those actions are her only form of communication.

Cain trained her as a child assassin, then took her to her first kill. Cass murdered a man and experienced, through his body language, the pain he felt at his death. Immediately afterward, she ran away from her father.

Batgirl #62 (2005)

We know that Cass was eight years old when she killed and ran. We also know that her first appearance in Gotham was nine years after she ran, thanks to Barbara Gordon’s file.

Batgirl #1 (2000)

Simple enough. She was 17. How old was everybody else? We find out from Tim’s timeline.

This next bit will come up a few times. We know that Tim was 15 from at least 1993 to 2003, established by three different issues. We know from Detective Comics #668 (1993) that Tim was 15 during Knightquest, the arc where Jean-Paul Valley was briefly Batman. Barbara tells us in 2002 that Tim is still 15, and Tim turns 16 on-panel in 2003.

In Knightquest, Tim gets his driver’s license early, at age 15, because Jack Drake is in a wheelchair. I suppose the wording here is ambiguous on a technicality, but I don’t think there’s any significant argument against Tim being 15; if he was only 14, the language would be different.

Detective Comics #668 (1993)

Next, in Batgirl #24 (2002), Barbara says she’s “sending a 15 year old” as she reaches for Tim’s com line.

Batgirl #24 (2002)

We could stop here for Cassandra’s appearance, since that happened in 1999, between the 1993 issue and the 2002 reference. For completion’s sake, however, let’s note that Robin #116 (2003) is about Tim’s 16th birthday. He forgets about it, so his step-mother throws a surprise party.

Robin #116 (2003)

Okay, so Tim was 15 when Cass appeared at age 17. That puts Bruce at 39, Dick at 24, and Jason at 17 if you’re counting by years elapsed since his birth.

Bruce met his daughter when he was 39 and she was 17, in reference to my original question. Cass is 22 years younger than Bruce, seven years younger than Dick, the same age as Jason, and two years older than Tim.

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Dick is adopted

This one, having already established Tim’s timeline, is very simple. Dick was adopted in Gotham Knights #17 (2001).

Gotham Knights #17 (2001)

Again, Tim was 15 from 1993 to 2003, and 2001 falls within that range. Tim was 15, which makes Dick 24 and Bruce 39.

At this point in the timeline, Bruce, a 39 year old, has two adopted children, one of whom is deceased as far as Bruce is concerned. His adopted children are (17) and 24. He has already met two of his future children, Cass and Tim.

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This is PART ONE. I’ll reblog Part Two onto this post when I wake up, which should be around the same time this posts.

#PART ONE of two #I'm going to reblog the last 10 pages onto this post as soon as it comes off the queue #timeline #mine #really lame that I can fit 50 pages into a post but then the last10 is too much

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stxleslyds · 3 years

Text

LET’S TALK ABOUT BATMAN AND ROBIN #20 (2011).

And the issues that followed that story (Batman and Robin vol.2 #34-37)

DC and the fandom really let Bruce get away with what he did to Jason in that issue. DC because they had Jason go back to Bruce a few issues later to finish their story and the fandom because this moment in comics isn’t talked about enough which has led people to believe that the the concept of “batfamily” as it is in fandom belongs in canon.

This type of moments in stories should make a bigger impact on comic relationships and fandom’s perception of said relationships. From where I am standing Bruce’s actions in that issue are right on the edge of unforgivable and they could have used them as a key moment for Jason to finally move on from all Bat related bullshit without thinking that he had to stay and finish the job (of getting Damian back).

Making Jason move on so easily from that situation really makes it look like if Batman is physically, emotionally, or mentally abusive to his children then it’s not that much of a big deal, it’s just a subplot to a bigger story.

And that is something that happens repeatedly in current comics and it’s disgusting.

Anyway, now that I am done with my rambling, I will start talking about the issues that I mentioned.

Batman and Robin (2011) #20 – Written by Peter Tomasi.

For a little context, this issue is set after Damian’s death and Bruce is looking for ways to resurrect him.

And in this particular issue of this run, Batman recruits Jason Todd between the events of RHatO vol. 1 #18 and #19, that’s why in the cover of the issue the name of the run is changed to ‘Batman and Red Hood’.

A bit more context is that in issue #18 Jason finally recovers from the injuries that he got when the trap that Joker had put on his helmet detonated, and Jason was also having an existential crisis after the Joker convinced him that he was always present in Jason’s life and that he shaped the man that Jason had become (If you want to read more about that and the times' Joker has played with Jason’s mind, I have this post in which I talk all about that).

Good, now I can finally talk about this hellish issue.

Bruce asks for Jason’s help because he wants to take down some marksmen and women that are based in Ethiopia that might or might not have been the same people who took on the job of looking for Damian when his mother had put a bounty on his head.

One would imagine that Bruce calling Jason for this job means that he would let Jason kill some people, bounty-hunters that are money-driven enough to kill children seem to be the kind of people Jason would have in his black list, but Jason is smart and he knows that Batman won’t let him kill so he asks why is Bruce asking him of all people to join him on this mission, Batman replies with “Because I am seeing red”.

If you, like me, don’t understand why Batman would ask the Red Hood to stop him from killing some very shady people then don’t worry, Batman was lying, he didn’t ask Jason to go with him to beat some bounty-hunters, he has ulterior motives.

I will give it to Tomasi, he wrote Jason as the smart cookie that he is because Jason doesn’t stop picking up on the weird technicalities of the mission, and I will go as far as to say that Jason never truly believed that Bruce was being honest about the true nature of their mission. Smart Chonky, I miss you and love you.

Once they get to Ethiopia Bruce starts setting the rules of engagement (don’t shoot to kill, only hands, knees, and elbows), and off they go. Bruce even makes a comment about how it “feels like old times” and Jason is all happy and warm that Bruce invited him to beat some baddies and he also brings up the fact that Bruce stayed by his side while he was recovering from his injuries, very lovely stuff that will soon mean nothing (and that should have meant nothing because Bruce and his lies had resulted in Joker knowing all of their secret identities and messing with all of them in horrible ways, but the Bat can get away with that too).

Here is part of Bruce’s speech about trust and his lies, “You don’t ever need to thank me, Red Hood, for a family always looks out for each other” to which Jason says, “Yeah but a family also needs to earn each other’s trust” and Bruce continues his speech with, “comes a time when having to keep earning someone’s trust stops and you hope the people you’ve put your faith in will always have your back no matter what”.

Batman, everyone, master detective and master manipulator.

As Batman is talking manipulating Jason he beats every bounty hunter almost effortlessly because he had brought some bat-gadgets that were going to make the fight really easy. And as the fight is over in what looks like a minute Batman and Red Hood get on the Batmobile ready to leave Ethiopia… or not.

Jason is very aware that Batman didn’t need him for that so-called mission so he starts to ask more and more firmly about the real reason as to why Batman brought him to this place.

Batman brought Jason back to Ethiopia, but most importantly back to the Magdala Valley because he wants to see if Jason going back to the place where he died will make him remember how he was resurrected.

Yep, talk about having messed-up parents. Bruce is positively the worst at this moment, but it gets worse.

Jason is rightfully pissed off, he says, “You lied to me, this wasn’t about taking down those mercenaries. You wanted to bring me here, to the worst place in the world and here I was starting to believe all your crap about trust and faith...”

To which Bruce says, “I thought bringing you here could jog your memory, maybe retrieve a detail buried deep in your subconscious that could help piece together how you came back to life so I…”

And my man Jason really continues his thought process only to later tell him how much of a piece of shit he truly is (I love this Chonky, go Jason show this man that he ain’t shit).

“…could apply it to getting Damian back. Yeah, I get it. Did it ever occur to you I might like keeping whatever the hell happened to me buried deep? If you cared about me, you wouldn’t want me to dredge up the one thing I’ve been trying to forget. I don’t want to remember the most horrific day of my life all right? You may like wallowing in your tragedies, Bruce, but I’m done looking back!”

Jason, bravo, tell him exactly how you feel! Any sort of good human being would surely accept that they crossed a massive line and that they should ask for forgiveness next, right?... Right?

No. And that’s because Bruce is a horrible human being, I am sorry but it had to be said, this man has zero empathy for Jason and he proves it when he says the following.

“If you cared about me and what I’ve lost, you’d want to dredge this up! Don’t you see, there is a chance you can help me erase one of the worst days of MY life, Jason! You can give me the greatest gift of all and help me figure out how to bring my son back”

Fuck Bruce Wayne. This man has no right whatsoever to talk this way to Jason, no matter how you see this situation, the whole thing is fucked up. Bruce puts his needs above Jason’s feelings and he diminishes Jason’s position as his son because Bruce only refers to Damian as his son. This whole thing is incredibly nasty.

Here we should have had the point of no return for Jason and Bruce’s relationship, although if you are like me, you might think that the point of no return happened way back in Batman (1940) #650 when Bruce decided that saving the Joker by throwing a batarang at Jason’s neck (how did he know that Jason would survive that, I have no idea, maybe Bruce can see the future) was a better option compared to Jason finally killing the clown. Because that’s the thing, Jason was going to kill the clown but Bruce didn’t let him because he didn’t want more blood in Jason’s hands, I laugh until this day about how stupid Bruce’s thinking was there.

Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that Jason should have said bye-bye to Batman and all related Batman crap from this moment on. It would have been perfect but DC can’t help themselves and Lobdell’s self-insert-Jason really wants to be part of this amazing family so, no luck for Jason or us.

If you have read my latest post about Joker getting under Jason’s skin or read issue #18 of RHatO you know the context of what Jason says next.

“Yeah, and how about me? How about the gift of not knowing that the Joker manipulated my entire life, huh? The clown tainted everything, the good, the bad, hell my life’s even been tainted by you!”

Yup, Jason was going through it, and he had talked about these feelings with Bruce previously in issue #17 of RHatO, he had asked Bruce if he thought that Joker had created him and Bruce said, “No Jason, He didn’t make you, I never did either. You made you” and Jason was extremely thankful for that. And now, here we are, these feelings are being brought up again but in a very different situation.

Them arguing becomes a physical fight and after Jason asks Bruce “why are you making me stand in the exact same spot he beat me to death?” He replies this “Because I want to watch Damian grow up damn it! Damian earned that right! And I want to give it to him!”

This conversation only gets worse and Bruce’s most horrible side comes to light, like, I understand that Bruce wants Damian to be alive and all that but he is saying all the wrong stuff to Jason. I feel like as the reader I am being told that Bruce values Damian more than he ever did Jason because he is willing to put Jason through his own personal hell for Damian but refuses to see the reasons as to why Jason doesn’t want to do it. Bruce is being incredibly selfish and he is not caring enough about Jason to notice that he is hurting him. He even doesn’t notice after Jason says, “I was ready to stand by your side and you’ve thrown it all away!”

It is incredibly sad but it's also a bit of a look into what Bruce will do to Dick in Nightwing vol. 3 #30. It has the exact same vibe in both issues, Bruce going completely berserk on his children and telling them that he “trained them to be better”.

This issue ends with Jason punching Bruce several times and Bruce taunting Jason by telling him that he might as well continue because he is “still standing”. The levels of manipulation that Bruce had going on here weren’t as high as the ones in Nightwing #30 but he sure was a little bitch every step of the way.

Jason, being smart, doesn’t take the bait and tells Bruce that he is leaving and he is taking the car.

Wouldn’t this have been an amazing moment for Jason to finally rid himself of all Batman-related events and bullshit? How did DC miss this amazing opportunity to make Jason Todd/Red Hood a character that can stand on his own and with his own rules?

The potential that was wasted when they made Jason go back to Bruce and help him get Damian back in issues 33 to 37 of this same run is immeasurable. And just like Joker being able to get under Jason’s skin, him going back to Bruce and the “family” for plot purposes harmed Jason’s characterization greatly.

Batman and Robin (2011) #34-37 – Written by Peter Tomasi.

Whatever kind of respect I held for Tomasi because of the way he wrote Jason in #20 is now gone. Issues 34 to 37 have Jason fighting alongside Batman and him being all buddy-buddy with him.

Now, let me make something clear, Bruce wanting to bring Damian back to life/from Apokolips is absolutely fine with me, a father fighting for his son’s life can always make a good story, the thing is that at this point in time not only the events of Batman and Robin #20 have happened but so have the events of Nightwing #30.

So, Bruce going through all of this for one of his kids (that keeps being brought up as if he were his only son) after he emotionally manipulated Jason and Dick makes this story very bitter.

But I understand what DC is doing, you know? Here is how they manage to make this story as bitter-sweet as possible. In issue 34 of this run, Dick shows up in his Spyral get-up and offers his help in getting Damian back, because the kid meant a lot to him but Bruce can’t have Dick helping him out along with Barbara and Tim because Bruce has everyone convinced that Dick is dead. So, DC was like “here is this big brain idea, let’s have Jason, Barbara, and Tim helping Bruce get Damian back”. And that’s exactly what they did.

They dragged Jason back to Batman-related crap after he was manipulated, insulted, and punched by the man that is supposed to be his father. And this issue is also happening after Jason had such an immense existential crisis that he decided to have his memory wiped so he could cleanse himself on any doubt that the Joker had manipulated his free will.

How on earth are we supposed to believe that Jason is dumb enough to go back to Batman after all that? Does DC and its writers read their own material? Do they check if the characters that they are planning on using have contradicting narratives?

It’s so messy, the opportunity that DC, Tynion, Tomasi, and Lobdell got to make Jason his own man and his own character was completely wasted, just for a Batman event!

And it isn’t like Jason’s participation in getting Damian back was crucial, it really wasn’t, if I am planning on taking a team of heroes to Apokolips for a rescue mission, Jason, Barbara and Tim wouldn’t be my first options. Jason was put in that book only so they could have someone making snarky comments and for Jason to be like “Bruce we are family, we will always have each other’s backs” I mean, who is Jason supposed to be, Dom Toretto?

Here are some of the moments that seemed the most out of touch for Jason in these issues.

Batman and Robin #34

In issue 34 Bruce gives a long speech about him not wanting to hide things anymore from them (like he did during the events of Death of the Family) and that he wants a new start because they “have been broken long enough” so from that moment forward “good or bad, the truth rules”.

The audacity of this man, my god, how dense can Bruce be? “we’ve been broken long enough”? YOU have broken your relationship with these people time and time again! As you are standing there talking about the truth you are hiding the fact that Dick is alive and well somewhere far away because YOU sent him on a very dangerous mission after he died and you manipulated him.

THE AUDACITY OF THIS PIECE OF SHIT! Am I becoming an anti-Batman blog? I think I am and quite honestly, I am having the time of my life. Fuck this guy.

But back to the issue, after Bruce says that the truth is all that goes now, Barbara basically says that she doesn’t believe him, that all it takes for Bruce to go back to lying is “another situation that justifies you going dark on us in more ways than one” HA! You go, girl! But he is already hiding something from all of you.

Jason being himself supplies a situation like the ones where Batman lies to them in order to get them to work for him, he says, “or bringing me to Magdala Valley on a sightseeing trip to reminisce about the good old days of crowbars and explosions”, ah yes, sure, Bruce did all that back in issue 20 and now it is brought up as an afterthought… how wonderful.

Bruce, of course, lies to their faces when he says “I promise that nothing gets held back. We speak our mind no matter what the cost” to which Jason says “Unconditional truth now and forever, Bruce, otherwise this is all a load of crap”.

AND IT IS! IT IS ALL A LOAD OF CRAP CHONKY! RUN, RUN LIKE THE WIND!

Man, what a mess, poor Dick. He had to wait there and watch his father lie his ass off. And he really wanted to help Bruce get Damian back. Even after Bruce told Dick (as well as Barbara, Tim, and Jason) that he had to go to Apokolips alone Dick still helped Bruce in other ways, Dick really is the MVP, what a man, I love him so much!

(I really needed to show my love for Dick right then and there, sometimes you just have to do it. Dick Grayson is, after all, the greatest comic character to have ever been created).

Batman and Robin #36

First of all, seeing Jason and Barbara wearing the Robin symbol really makes me laugh. It’s just weird to see Barbara wear it, it almost feels like it’s something that shouldn’t have happened and in Jason’s case, well, the last time he wore it he died and it’s kinda funny to see beefy and tall Red Hood wearing a Robin symbol, it’s just funny not a critique.

What I am going to critique from this issue is that after they (Jason, Barbara, and Tim) go to Apokolips and find Bruce they say, “You’re here in this hellish place for your son, Bruce” and Jason continues that with, “And we’re here for you”.

Ah, the irony. Of all people, having Jason say that to Bruce is wild. This man has done nothing for Jason and here Jason is, in Apokolips, of all places, to help a man that does not deserve it. This is proof that Jason is a good man but its also proof that he is an idiot in the New 52, I am sorry but come on, writing Jason this way after what Bruce did to him in issue 20 seems like DC is confirming the fact that even though Batman does the most horrible stuff to his kids, he can still get away with it because his kids still love him all the same.

I understand, loving your parents when they are flawed but Bruce had been written at this time like an abusive father, and he was written like that towards Jason and Dick, so it is not a good look. Bruce saying that he promises that he won’t do it anymore isn’t enough DC, make the man pay for being that way, make his kids stay away from him for a while (or forever).

And here is the other thing, I say that Bruce is Jason and Dick’s father but DC doesn’t, they only acknowledge Damian as Bruce’s son and they do it because the New 52 timeline is non-existent. After all, they deleted a lot of history from these characters, I think it’s fair to assume that Bruce never adopted Dick or Jason and that both of them were Robin for a very short time. What I am trying to say with this is that not only is Bruce getting away with being abusive but he is also getting away with being an abusive father. Because Bruce is their father, at least I see it that way, he isn’t just his friend/mentor/tutor he is their father. He used to be before New 52 and that’s not something that we as the readers are ready or want to let go of.

All in all, Jason didn’t do much in these issues thus confirming (to me, at least) that the only reason he was invited to the party was because they couldn’t use Dick. And that’s an insult to Jason’s character, it would have been better if Jason didn’t appear in this story and he actually had the chance to do something else, like go back to being the proper Red Hood, an anti-hero that does what Batman won’t do for Gotham and its people.

#jason todd #red hood #batman and robin #batman #robin #dc comics #batman and red hood #dick grayson #nightwing

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yangsrose · 2 years

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Okay, so basically let me run through what Flashpoint was in the comics first.

(1/2) Because Flashpoint is mad complicated I'll try to simplify it.

So around roughly 2011, DC rebooted their entire comic timeline to the current Prime Earth and New 52. Prime Earth being the main comic continuity and New 52 representing 52 parallel multiverses. This kicks off when the Flash (Barry Allen) travels back in time using the Cosmic Treadmill (yes you can laugh) to harness the speed force and garner enough energy to successfully go back in time and save his mother from being killed by Reverse Flash. This, however, creates a paradox. Since his mother was never killed by the Reverse Flash, Flash never gained the motive to become the Flash. So when he returns, not only does he no longer have the speed force, but the entire world around him has changed. For example, he works for the Daily Planet. Superman never existed because when his baby space ship landed the U.S. government confiscated it right away (thus he never grew up as Clark Kent), The Amazonians and the Atlantians were at war (Wonder Woman vs. Aquaman, although they were only known as the Warrior Queen Dinah and the King of Atlantis Arthur since they never became heroes), and one of the more notable ones is that Bruce Wayne isn't Batman. In the Flashpoint continuity, it was Bruce Wayne who died in the alley, his father Thomas became the Batman and his mother Martha went insane and became the Joker. Obviously, Barry realizes that he screwed things up big time and he had to fix them by going back in time and restoring everything correctly (meaning his mother has to die). To do this, he enlists in the help of Thomas Wayne, who is reluctant to believe Barry until he proves that in his original timeline Bruce is alive. From there they simulate the conditions that gave Barry his powers in the first place and after many errors they succeed and Barry is granted back the flash force. Meanwhile, Cyborg is instructed to bring together Earth's heroes to create a force that will be successful enough to stop the war, this obviously fails, the U.S. is forced to enter in the war, yada yada,, things happen. Barry finds out that they also need to merge two different universes (DC and Wildstorm) together now to fix the timeline (something which Dr. Manhattan was actually responsible for but that's a story for another time). When this occurs, Prime Earth and New 52 are officially created.

Now onto part 2 on how this will supposedly fix the DCEU...

COSMIC TREADMILL YOU'RE LYING i'm sorry i snorted so hard when i read that

AND DAMN?! WHAT THE HECK YOU'RE LYINGGGG that plot line has so much potential like,, lovers to enemies but make it more intense omg

okay so to sum it up it's like what happened with nwh (in a sense) except way worse

#tell me why prime earth registered in my brain as earth'#it's the calc brain rot for me 😵‍💫#asks #crys🦹🏽‍♀️

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thisblogmovedfindmeifyoucan · 3 years

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Bio for Hero Verse:

Anthony Edward "Tony" Stark was born on May 29, 1975, in Manhattan, New York to Howard Stark, a famous genius inventor and businessman, and Maria Stark, a New York socialite and philanthropist. Growing up under the eye of family butler Edwin Jarvis, his life was characterized by a cold and affectionless relationship with his father. Seeing that his son could achieve great things, Howard tried to inspire him with constant talks about his own role in the creation of Captain America.

This instead embittered Stark, who felt that his father was taking more pride in his creations than in his family. A brilliant and unique child prodigy, Stark attended MIT for two years starting at age 14, graduating at the age of 16.On December 16, 1995, when Stark was 20, his parents went away to the Bahamas, but planned to stop at the Pentagon to deliver Super Soldier Serum he had redeveloped.

On their way there, both were killed in a car accident—later revealed to be an assassination carried out by the Winter Soldier who was mind controlled by Hydra to steal the serum. As a result, Stark inherited his father's company, becoming CEO of Stark Industries. Over the years, he became well known as a weapons designer and inventor.

In 2010, Stark travels to war-torn Afghanistan with his friend and military liaison Lieutenant Colonel James Rhodes to demonstrate Stark's new "Jericho" missile. After the demonstration, the convoy is ambushed and Stark is critically wounded and imprisoned by a terrorist group, the Ten Rings. Fellow captive Ho Yinsen, a doctor, implants an electromagnet into Stark's chest to keep shrapnel shards from reaching his heart and killing him.

Stark and Yinsen secretly build a small, powerful electric generator called an arc reactor to power Stark's electromagnet and a suit of powered armor. When the Ten Rings attack the workshop, Yinsen sacrifices himself to divert them while the suit is completed. The armored Stark battles his way out of the cave to find the dying Yinsen, then burns the Ten Rings' weapons in anger and flies away, crashing in the desert. Rescued by Rhodes, Stark returns home to announce that his company will no longer manufacture weapons. In his home workshop, Stark builds a sleeker, more powerful version of his improvised armor suit as well as a more powerful arc reactor.

Stark learns that Obadiah Stane has been arms trafficking to criminals worldwide, and is staging a coup to replace him as Stark Industries' CEO. Stark, in his new armor, flies to Afghanistan and saves the villagers. Stane ambushes Stark at his home and takes the arc reactor from his chest, revealing that Stane was responsible for Stark's captivity. Stark manages to get to his original reactor to replace it and defeats Stane. The next day, at a press conference, Stark publicly admits to being "Iron Man."

Six months later in 2011, Stark has become a superstar and uses his Iron Man suit for peaceful means, resisting government pressure to sell his designs. He reinstitutes the Stark Expo to continue his father's legacy, but discovers that the palladium core in the arc reactor that keeps Stark alive and powers the armor is slowly poisoning him.

Stark competes in the Monaco Historic Grand Prix and is attacked mid-race by Ivan Vanko, who wields electrified whips powered by a miniature arc reactor. Stark dons his Mark V armor and defeats Vanko, but the suit is severely damaged. At his birthday party, Stark gets drunk while wearing the Mark IV suit. Rhodes dons Stark's Mark II prototype armor and tries to restrain him. The fight ends in a stalemate, so Rhodes confiscates the Mark II for the U.S. Air Force.

Stark discovers a hidden message from his father, a diagram of the structure of a new element, which Stark synthesizes. At the Expo, Stark's rival Justin Hammer unveils Vanko's armored drones he had him make, led by Rhodes in a heavily weaponized version of the Mark II armor. Stark arrives in the Mark VI armor to warn Rhodes, but Vanko remotely takes control of both the drones and Rhodes' armor and attacks Iron Man. Stark and Rhodes together defeat Vanko and his drones.

In 2012, when the Asgardian Loki arrives and begins menacing Earth, seizing the Tesseract from a S.H.I.E.L.D. facility, Fury activates the Avengers Initiative and S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent Phil Coulson visits Stark to have him review the research of Erik Selvig on the Tesseract. In Stuttgart, Steve Rogers and Loki fight briefly until Tony Stark appears in his Iron Man armor, resulting in Loki's surrender. While Loki is being escorted to S.H.I.E.L.D., Thor arrives and frees him, hoping to convince him to abandon his plan and return to Asgard. After a confrontation with Stark and Rogers, Thor agrees to take Loki to S.H.I.E.L.D.'s flying aircraft carrier, the Helicarrier.

The Avengers become divided, both over how to approach Loki and the revelation that S.H.I.E.L.D. plans to harness the Tesseract to develop weapons. Agents possessed by Loki attack the Helicarrier, disabling one of its engines in flight, which Stark and Rogers must work to restart. Loki escapes, and Stark and Rogers realize that for Loki, simply defeating them will not be enough; he needs to overpower them publicly to validate himself as ruler of Earth. Loki uses the Tesseract to open a wormhole in New York City above the Avengers Tower to allow the Chitauri fleet in space to invade.

Fury's superiors from the World Security Council attempt to end the invasion by launching a nuclear missile at Midtown Manhattan. Stark intercepts the missile, and in an apparent sacrifice of his own life, takes it through the wormhole toward the Chitauri fleet. The missile detonates, destroying the Chitauri mothership and disabling their forces on Earth. Stark's suit runs out of power, and he falls back through the wormhole but the Hulk saves him from crashing into the ground.

Several years later, Stark and the Avengers raid a Hydra facility commanded by Baron Wolfgang von Strucker, who has been experimenting on siblings Pietro and Wanda Maximoff using the scepter previously wielded by Loki. While the team fights outside, Stark enters the lab and finds the scepter, along with Chitauri ships from the Battle of New York and androids under construction. Wanda sneaks up behind him and uses her mind manipulation powers to give him a haunting vision: the death of all the Avengers except him. Stark awakens from the vision and grabs Loki's scepter.

Returning to Stark Tower, Stark and Bruce Banner discover an artificial intelligence within the scepter's gem, and secretly decide to use it to complete Stark's "Ultron" global defense program. The unexpectedly sentient Ultron eliminates Stark's A.I. J.A.R.V.I.S. and attacks the Avengers at Stark Tower. Escaping with the scepter, Ultron builds an army of robot drones, kills Strucker and recruits the Maximoffs, who hold Stark responsible for their parents' deaths by his company's weapons. The Avengers find and attack Ultron, but Wanda subdues most of the team with personalized, disturbing visions, causing Banner to transform into the Hulk and rampage until Stark stops him with his anti-Hulk armor.

After hiding at Clint Barton's house, Nick Fury arrives and encourages Stark and the others to form a plan to stop Ultron, who is discovered to have forced the team's friend Dr. Helen Cho to perfect a new body for him. Rogers, Romanoff, and Barton find Ultron and retrieve the synthetic body, but Ultron captures Romanoff. Returning to their headquarters in New York, the Avengers fight amongst themselves when Stark and Banner secretly upload J.A.R.V.I.S.—who is still operational after hiding from Ultron inside the Internet—into the synthetic body. Thor returns to help activate the body, explaining that the gem on its brow was part of his vision.

This "Vision" and the Maximoffs, now on their side, accompany Stark and the Avengers to Sokovia, where Ultron has used the remaining vibranium to build a machine to lift part of the capital city skyward, intending to crash it into the ground to cause global extinction. One of Ultron's drones is able to activate the machine. The city plummets, but Stark and Thor overload the machine and shatter the landmass. The Avengers establish a new base, and Stark leaves the team in the hands of Rogers and Romanoff.

Besides his age this is Where Canon Starts to Diverge:

In 2016, U.S. Secretary of State Thaddeus Ross informs the Avengers that the United Nations (UN) is preparing to pass the Sokovia Accords, which will establish UN oversight of the team. The Avengers are divided: Stark supports oversight because of his role in Ultron's creation and Sokovia's devastation, while Rogers has more faith in his own judgment than that of a government. Circumstances lead to Rogers and fellow super-soldier Bucky Barnes—framed for a terrorist attack—going rogue, along with Sam Wilson, Wanda Maximoff, Clint Barton, and Scott Lang. Stark assembles a team composed of Romanoff, T'Challa, Rhodes, Vision, and Peter Parker to capture the renegades at Leipzig/Halle Airport.

So up until the battle, Tony thinks that the Accords are a good idea except that he doesn’t treat Wanda as bad as she’s treated in the movies. She will be in Avengers compound but she’s kept there to train and he will try to find someone to help her learn to control her powers.

When they go to Germany, Tony actually listens to Steve but there is still a fight that ensues. When Rhodey falls from the sky and is injured, Tony calls the entire thing off. He goes with Steve and Bucky to the compound with the other Super soldiers but when he finds out about what happened, he’s very angry but doesn’t attack Bucky and Steve. This takes away the rift that is there between the three men. Tony does help Clint and Sam and although they must stay on the run, Tony supplies them resources and doesn’t let Ross know where they are.

In 2018, Stark and Potts are in a New York City park changes that are going to be made to move the business in another direction when Banner, who had disappeared after the Battle of Sokovia, crash-lands at the Sanctum Sanctorum. Banner relays a warning to Stephen Strange, Wong, and Stark that the mad Titan Thanos plans to use the Infinity Stones to kill half of all life in the universe. Ebony Maw and Cull Obsidian arrive to retrieve the Time Stone, prompting Strange, Stark, Wong, and Parker to confront them. Although Cull Obsidian is incapacitated and thrown into Antarctica, Strange is captured by Maw. Stark and Parker sneak aboard Maw's spaceship to rescue him.

After successfully freeing Strange and killing Maw, the trio proceed to Thanos’ home planet Titan, where they meet members of the Guardians of the Galaxy. They form a plan to confront Thanos and remove the Infinity Gauntlet, but Thanos overpowers the group and stabs Stark. Strange surrenders the Time Stone in exchange for Thanos sparing Stark. Thanos takes the stone and departs Titan for Earth, retrieves the final stone, and activates the Infinity Gauntlet. Stark and Nebula, stranded on Titan, watch as Parker and others are turned to dust.

For the end battle, Tony will take the gauntet but instead of him dying, his right arm is destroyed and he will use the same nanotech that is hooked to his chest to create an arm for him to use. Also at the end of the battle, Tony 45 years old will remain as Ironman until he can train someone as his replacement. Also in the five years of the Blip, Pepper and Tony have a one night stand and she gets pregnant with Morgan. @mhstark3000 . With this, they are not married and aren’t even dating. He will be in Morgan’s life though and Pepper and Tony do an amazing job co-parenting, especially once her retires from being Ironman.

During the time of Wanda Vison and TFATWS, he is retired from being an Avenger but will pick it up if he’s needed. Also he’s been working inventions and his own thing.

#about tony

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xreaderxo · 4 years

Note

Hi!! I love both of your social media fics so far and I was wondering if you had any recs for learning more about the batfam?? Since reading your atla/batfam fics I've been wanting to read more about them but I don't know which comics would be a good place to start (or if you learned about them from somewhere else??) thanks!!

YES OK HERE WE GO. first i’ll link a post that gives a brief overview of the characters

brief overview of the boys

brief overview of the girls

dick grayson:

comics:

robin (year one) 2000 - dick’s first year as robin

nightwing (year one) 2005 - dick leaving bruce & striking out on his own

batman and robin (2009-2011) - bruce presumed dead, dick takes up the mantle of batman and tries to mentor damian

nightwing (1996-2009) - great comic series as a whole, but issue #25 has great dick/tim moments

fic recs:

exactly how this grace thing works - dick gets de-aged

field trip - 13 year old dick’s class takes a field trip to wayne enterprises

essential actions - dick spends his first christmas after bruce fired him with the kents

i also would recommend watching young justice to get to know dick, specifically season 1

jason todd

comics:

batman: the cult (1998) - jason’s robin years

batman: a death in the family (1988) - jason’s death

batman: under the red hood - jason comes back to life. and he’s angry.

new 52 red hood and the outlaws - jason gets team

rebirth red hood and the outlaws - jason gets a different team

DCeased - zombie au

titans together (2020) - jason as a titan

fic recs:

a family to die for - jason realizes he’s loved

jason todd is alive - conspiracy theory thread

i recommend watching batman: under the red hood

tim drake:

comics:

robin vol 1: reborn - tim as robin

red robin (2011) - tim striking out on his own after damian takes his place as robin

young justice (1999) - tim starts a team with bart allen & conner kent

fic recs:

young tim explores the manor

tim drake & the good samaratin - tim wants to kill himself. good thing someone stops him.

cassandra cain

comics:

batgirl (2000)

DCeased

fic rec:

murder mystery with tim & cass

cass doesn’t always feel welcome

stephanie brown

comics:

batgirl (2009)

DCeased

fic rec:

damian & steph bond

stephanie at wayne gala

duke thomas

comics:

Robin War

All Star Batman issues 1-9

fic recs:

saga of the bat glare - duke doesn’t understand how the others understand what bruce’s grunts mean

party chaos - duke realizes how insane wayne manor is

damian wayne

comics:

son of batman

super sons

DCeased

batman and robin (2009-2011) - dick as batman

fic recs:

a good place - damian is sent back in time to when bruce first became batman

innocence & experience - damian is sent back back in time (to cartoon young justice world)

i would recommend watching son of batman the movie, batman vs robin, justice league vs teen titans, teen titans judas contract, and justice league apokolips

batfam as a whole

comics:

DCeased

Batman (2017) issue #16

Gotham Knights

fic recs:

colony - collections of one shots with various members of the batfam. very in character. if you really wanna get into the batfam, i def recommend this one

from gotham to miami - dick, jason & damian are sent to miami on a mission.

batfam plays uno

life happens - tim & damian are thrown into a world where everything they know is fictional

keep breathing - damian realizes that jason isn’t so bad

yesterday’s voices - bruce forgets everything from the past five years

christmas eve breakfast

tim and damian have an educated discussion about depression

i would recommend watching lego batman: family matters

#fic rec #batfam

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astrologista · 4 years

Text

jason stop dying

ooooook i just watched ditf. it was PRETTY GOOD.... i only wish there was MOOORE! watching this REALLY brought me back to 2011 times to see it and i think they did a good job with most of the character design and animations insofar as matching it to the original. (maybe i’m totally wrong but i thought it looked good for the most part... also i just really love these character designs in particular). obviously the budget is not what it would be on a feature, so there are a LOT of places where animation gets recycled and many still frames. some parts are basically a slideshow lol. but i only sort of came to that realization awhile after watching, so i think they did a fairly good job of masking this... ymmv

so let’s get into it!!!

SPOILERS a-head! do not read until you’ve watched it because i’ll spoil everything

now obviously the thing to be aware of if you are not is the fact that this adaptation is not a panel-by-panel adaptation of the original death in the family comic. all references to jason’s mother (save one mention of her dying of illness) are completely removed, they go to bosnia instead of africa, and the circumstances around jason leaving are also heavily altered to fit the new narrative. this adaptation does slot perfectly into the universe established by the under the red hood animated movie from 2011 though, without which one would be pretty confused when watching this. it’s kind of a mystery as to why they didn’t just package this with utrh and release the entire thing as a collectors edition. instead they package it with like 4 or 5 unrelated dc showcase shorts which makes absolutely 0 sense but go off i guess. anyway

i liked that they took the time to adapt the scene from the original ditf where bruce is talking to alfred about jason! (i do not like that alfred didn’t get any lines. bad choice). tbh i can’t understand why they bothered showing us alfred, barbara and dick if they weren’t gonna give them any lines..... like come on........??

HOW INTENSE BRUCE LOOKS WHEN HE FINDS JASON IN SARAJEVO and just. grabs him lol. hes smad :)

ok so one two skip a few and we get to the first branch. instead of calling 1-900 we now get to choose whether jason lives or dies. there are 7 possible endings i think i got em all so let’s see what we got here.

“Hush” Route - Robin cheats death

hgrgdggr. i definitely think this is one of the more interesting endings, if not the most interesting one. this is also the only ending in which both bruce and jason survive the bombing. bruce is still too late, but this time jason barely clings to life and survives. as a hurt/comfort fan i was 100% on this shit from the word go but then jason? runs away from home lmao lmao i thought that was SO funny because 1) hes super messed up, how is he able to just literally run out the house that is SO funny to me and 2) implying that bruce would ever not be keeping an eye on him after that is just, lmao. it’s so zany. i call this the “hush” route because of the bandages but there are no other references to hush so ok. that’s fair. so anyway jason is now angsty for loosely explained reasons but the most fun part is yet to come.

when talia showed up, i really thought / was terrified for a second that they were gonna bring up certain “events” regarding damian’s parentage / who damian’s father is but then she mentioned bruce and i was like OH THANK GOD WE CAN STILL GO TO HEAVEN. i am so so grateful to the writers for NOT going there. cuz it was damn close ok. im not sure what the implication of this route is in terms of talia, jason and damian being a family unit but i want to believe talia sees jason as a son and damian’s brother (which is how she refers to him, damian’s brother) and not... yknow. i mean. jason raising a baby is kind of like a baby raising a baby...

no actually the reality of this scene is really dfuckin interesting like. they actually go with the “birth of the demon” (forget if it was birth of the demon or bride of the demon. one of those.) explanation for damian and that is something i’ve NEVER seen adapted so whoever wrote this can have a cookie and i kNOW this is something a certain someone will appreciate :)

not only that but the implications? are interesting? so talia’s claim is she miscarried so bruce won’t have to “choose” between damian and jason and idk if she’s supposed to be all on the-up-and-up in this universe but. i’m sitting here like GIRL YOU DON’T GOTTA DO THIS HE HAS A PRIVATE JET HAVEN’T YOU HEARD OF SHARED CUSTODY and BETTER YET HE HAS A MANSION JUST GO ON MAURY AND GET THIS SORTED OUT RIGHT NOWwwww

i’m also LAUGHING at the implications of jason thinking theres anywhere on earth that he’s going to go and hide damian’s existence from bruce. because you already know he’s just going to be tearing the planet apart looking for jason so this is actually hilarious. imagine he finds jason in one piece and also a baby. his baby. he’d be like (@ talia) “OMG WHY WOULD YOU THINK I WOULDN’T WANT THEM BOTH u are tearing me apart talia......” BUT THEN HE WOULD BE SO FREAKING HAPPY BECAUSE HE HAS TWO ALIVE SONS AND HE THOUGHT THEY WERE BOTH DEAD / (lost to crime)!!!

please lord imagine all of jason’s angst probably just originating from the fact that he has a brain injury that hasn’t fully healed and the trauma of going through all those surgeries probably gave him a lot of fear / paranoia about bruce and associating him with the joker because his neural pathways are all messed up but after he leaves he starts slowly healing back and regaining some of his lost sanity and thats when he realizes he misses bruce so much... but hes also raising his child... and every day it gets more difficult for him not to just take damian and bring him home and i ;v;

anyway i thought this route, while it had a few inconsistencies in it, was really freaking interesting and it gave me feels and plot bunnies and is probably the one i want to write about the MOST despite the fact that baby damian looks like a character from one of those web flash games in this lol

“True” End - Jason Dies

now if you select that jason dies the route basically defaults to the canon of under the red hood and the fact that utrh does not come packaged with this movie is a rather mystifying choice to me as i don’t think this adaptation would stand on its own very well. like you need quite a bit of background to really get anything out of watching this on its own, which is probably why it’s classified as a “short” and not as its own movie.

instead of showing all of utrh, it seems they took the opportunity to give a ~30 minute recap of utrh with basically entirely reused animation but they allow bruce to sort of. give his dvd commentary over it.

the biggest feeling i have on this is that it’s sad that they had to waste 30 minutes like this that could’ve been used to do something new and much more interesting, but honestly i’m not mad. it seems kind of obvious that this choice was probably made for budget and/or runtime reasons because a short does not get the same budget set aside as a full length feature film does. so they basically took the option of recycling 30 minutes of animation from the movie and dubbing new audio over it.

in evangelion they ran out of budget and that’s why the last two episodes consist of nothing more than still pencil drawings and frames while the characters engage in philosophical debates concerning the nature of reality and human connection. and i really enjoyed that. and for the same reasons, i also really enjoyed this.

i enjoyed seeing the clark kent of this universe. i enjoyed that he was basically out on a date with bruce. i enjoyed that bruce was willing to open up for once and tell clark all of what happened with jason. but what really makes this segment shine bright are bruce greenwood’s line reads. there are SO MANY good line reads in here. and i LOVED how many times he said the word “son”. very wholesome. the way he describes how he felt during the final fight with jason? probs my favorite FUCKING part.

and then him and clark joking together about contingency plans and then they’re going to work together to find jason and i ;_; this is probably the closest thing to a “good” ending but as a continuation of utrh i thought it worked really well. i really want to believe that bruce and clark did find jason in this route and that there was some closure in the end even though we didn’t get to see it.

including clark in this was DEFINITELY the right move as well, considering that he played a rather large role in the original ditf so it’s a welcome nod.

The rest of the branches exist under a separate option where Bruce makes it in time to save Jason from the warehouse... but Bruce dies......... :O

let me tell you bout it... bruce’s fucking DEATH SCENE i don’t know WHAT my man bruce greenwood is on, but the freaking LINE READS in this dialogue had me making INHUMAN NOISES. LIKE NOT ONLY WAS THE DIALOGUE GOOD, NOT ONLY DID HE SAY “I LOVE YOU, SON”, but this man is just an amazing actor. not just voice actor, but actor. he really really really really gave it the most i don’t know how else to say it....... it was very very well done and punched me sideways in the heart and i haven’t recovered and i’m not going to recover. and

ok so once we get past that.... scene.... u have to choose whether you’re going to catch the joker or kill the joker. bruce asks jason to promise not to kill the joker but technically jason doesn’t promise so........

Let’s start by choosing to kill the Joker. Jason attends Bruce’s funeral and various members of the Justice League show up to talk with him and just generally hang out. He has Alfred, Dick and Barbara as his support system, but Jason has some other plans.

This leads to a scene in a cafe where Jason meets with a man who... something something Killing Joke, flashlight, more Barbara being used as a plot device when she deserves better, Jason kills the Joker with a butter knife.

Once you do this you can choose to surrender to the police, or retaliate and escape.

Jailbird Ending

basically if you surrender to the police jason ends up in prison where he can actually attack even more criminals so.... ya

If you retaliate and escape instead you go to the Red Robin route where Jason becomes a vigilante who kills people much like the Red Hood and you get a further choice in a fight with Two Face where you can control how Harvey’s coin lands.

Tim Ending!

If you choose the coin to land clean face up, the thing rewards you by having Tim show up and I forgot what happened (wasn’t really paying attention lol) because i was so focused on TIM!

Prolly they felt sorry for him what with Jason stealing what is essentially his outfit (ok I know it was Jason’s first, but Tim made it cool) so they let a little baby tim have an appearance :) he’s very smol

I guess in this ending Jason gets reintegrated with the family somehow and Tim becomes “Bat-kid” which is hilarious to me but you know what it’s cute. CUTE.

The one ending where the coin lands scarred side up

i honestly forget what happens if you choose to have the coin land scarred side up but let me just say this is a FUCKED route to take, not only have you had jason survive and bruce die, you’ve now chosen to kill the joker against bruce’s dying wish, you’ve chosen to attack the police, and at the end of that you really are gonna choose harvey’s coin to be scarred face up???? choosing this made me feel like a DICK because here i am supporting jason’s whole fall to madness and villainy thing the way it wants me to and now he’s gonna die HERE? i hate it here.

interestingly enough he doesn’t actually die in this route. he ends up at home with barbara and dick while dealing with the fact that he killed the joker but the route ends with jason saying “i promise” so i guess this is supposed to be kinda sad. im so confused lol ok

So that is all the options if you choose to kill the joker, I believe. You can also make the choice to just catch him instead of killing him but amazingly enough, those routes are even more FUCKED up.

If you do this option Jason goes home, mourns Bruce with Dick, Barbara and Alfred, and becomes Red Hood BUT with a twist, he’s entirely on a bloodless operation in line with Bruce’s wishes. OR.... IS HE?

Things then follow the events of UTRH until the scene on the bridge with the van and the guys. Jason finally confronts Joker, who reveals the truth.

Apparently in this route Jason has actually been killing and decapitating his victims just like in the original movie, but he’s repressed it so as to not even realize to himself that he’s doing it.

that is FUCKED. also. i wanna cry because jason doing all of that stuff but not even realizing it ;------; jason blocking it out, because he wanted to honor bruce’s wishes for him not to kill anyone ;______; but he’s doing it anyway ;_____; he’s actually hearing voices telling him to kill ;____; like it’s a very cheap twist in a sense and also really quite cruel but.... damn, son.

There is a branch here where you can choose to spare or kill the Joker at this point (UNDERTALE???) but from what I can tell it seems to be totally meaningless what choice you pick because you end up at the exact same point either way, I think there’s a small variation in what happens after you make the choice but after that they just coalesce back together into the following two endings. Which seems incredibly cheap to me, I mean making a choice like that should alter Jason’s path completely but, it doesn’t! So... ooook....

Either way Jason ends up on the Wayne building and Talia shows up with a re-animated Bruce from the pit. Here’s another fun blast from the 2011 past with more gratuitous Grant Morrison dreck, remember that shit? Well, they’re gonna jam it down your throat here, too.

The reanimated Bruce is the Zur En Arrh Bruce and he’s already dead so this is all meaningless but basically Jason fights him and you get to choose whether everybody lives or dies.

Zur En Arrh - Everyone Lives!

if you pick this, jason actually gets the re-animated bruce back to the batcave and they lock him up down there because he’s still pit-mad and the prognosis is not great. but i’m not sure what they expected, he is the zur-en-arrh guy so I don’t think he’s getting better.

Zur En Arrh - Everyone Dies!

pretty much there’s an explosion and all three of them die and that’s it

I think that should be all the possible endings there are.

By the way the different ways in which black mask dies in this was actually a fairly clever running gag lollll. let that mf burn we don’t need no water.

overall there are a couple of things i would have done to SIGNIFICANTLY improve this adaptation beyond some of the obvious ones.

- the fact that all of the branching options are branched exclusively under the “jason lives and bruce dies” branch is a huge wasted opportunity. imo this is the most egregious problem with this, i was really looking for a more balanced tree / explanation of different things. i am probably super biased though being a fic writer and used to fic, we’re the ones making huge ass trees every day lol.

- the fact that there is no “good” ending here is something i kind of expected but given the context of this is lackluster. i sort of get it though because granted, the original ditf ends in an unresolved manner but it’s distinctly unsatisfying here. i secretly wanted an ending where bruce, like, figures out about the different endings and hacks reality to try to find a good ending where jason lives and everything is fine lmao. like a bat mite ending.

- i was disappointed in a sense that the narrative given in here is so basically simplistic? maybe i’ve been spoiled by games like 999 and undertale where shit gets messy and that’s not what this is supposed to be but when i play something with multiple endings in this day and age, at least play with the concept a little bit and connect some of the branches together narratively. use different devices. i was also hoping some of the choices would be a little bit meatier like you could choose to “forgive bruce” or something cool like that lol. but it looks like the majority of choices have to do with who lives or dies. and i felt like they couldve been a bit more creative with that ya know? being able to control harvey’s coin was a GREAT example of having some more fun with this.

- it is a huge missed opportunity not to have a “secret ending” on something like this. like where. the fuck. is my secret ending for completing everything. come on. and in a similar vein there should’ve been at least something in terms of bruce and jason interacting in a “true ending”. even if very brief. the closest thing to an ending this has is the “jason died” route and then the ending where he’s talking to clark which i feel like was a REALLY nice good optimistic ending as far as this goes, but it comes off as kind of disappointing i guess

there were SO many interesting nuggets locked into this thing though. i can’t deny it bugs me how many wasted opportunities there were with how they chose to structure things but i guess it’s the best you can do with limited runtime. i thought it was really well done though, makes an interesting companion piece to the original utrh, and is definitely something that i will be re-watching again soon!! overall i give it a 7/10 and some parts an 8/10+!

#a death in the family #death in the family #ditf #it was cool to see the different ideas they had to offer finally?#for what it was #it was kind of a collection of shorts and half spun ideas #plus i think about this shit like every day #so i cant help but be interested #someone come and talk to me about this #i really want to know #what ppl thought #spoilers #ditf spoilers #death in the family spoilers

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distort-opia · 2 years

Note

You are one of the people who have the best character interpretation, so I would like to ask a question regarding N52's final issue. Joker delays his transformation to his actual self by saying, "not yet." Why do you think he wanted to stay longer? Bruce already returned being Batman, but (amnesic?) Joker seemed to want to be on hiatus. Is it because he enjoyed the human side?

Thank you so much! I'm happy you're enjoying my interpretation of these complex characters.

There's no doubt amnesiac Joker wants to stay human longer, and away from his real self. It's directly spelled out in Batman (2011) #48, when he asks Bruce not to become Batman again, and the reason for it is mentioned there too, more or less:

"At rest." In one word, that's the reason they both wanted to stay longer: peace. The unattainable dream that haunts Batman and Joker's characters relentlessly, because it's something they both had, but lost in such a traumatic way it made them incapable of having it again.

I'll go in more detail as to why he wants to delay his return as Joker under the cut, because I ended up citing comic panels and making this long again -- but also because there'll be heavy discussion of depression and suicidality, so. If that is something that triggers you, please take care.

Sigh. So the thing about Joker is... that he's deeply suicidal, and always has been.

Snyder's origin for him in Batman: Zero Year -- Secret City has the original Red Hood letting himself fall into the acid vat, refusing Bruce's outstretched hand, grinning as he falls:

Then, this is how Bruce recalls it in Endgame:

So. This is how Bruce remembers it going down, as shown in both of these comics. However, in Death of the Family, when Joker records himself talking out of the Red Hood helmet as Harley is parading as him, he says this:

"Where you knocked me off this very catwalk and bathed me in fire and burned away my false skin."

Interesting, isn't it? Joker doesn't remember it as him choosing to fall, he remembers it as Batman tipping him over. And the pattern continues with Endgame. In DotF, Joker gets so terrified by Bruce's bluff of knowing his identity he jumps off a cliff himself:

And yet, this is what he says in Endgame:

"You dropped me off a cliff!" It keeps happening, and I love the parallel Snyder made here-- not only the perpetual thread of a Joker always falling and a Batman who's unable to save him (even in Flashpoint), but the way they both remember the fall in entirely different ways. (Tbh, I think neither of these versions are the truth, and that it's much more impactful if we as readers don't know the truth either. This way, it's all about what Bruce and Joker need to believe. But that's a meta post for another day.) Bruce thinks Red Hood chose to fall, but Joker thinks Bruce pushed him towards his death, every time.

It's because he needs to believe that. The identity of Joker that he's forged for himself after the fall into the acid (and after the trauma that came before it) fulfills many functions, but a crucial one is just... keeping him alive. The same way Batman and The Vow is a way Bruce has come up with to stave off his own suicidal tendencies (something explicitly stated in Tom King's Batman: I Am Suicide). Joker can't believe that he tried to kill himself both times he fell, and that Batman tried to save him; he has to believe Batman did it on purpose. If he believes Batman had a hand in his creation, made him, that means Joker has a purpose. As long as that purpose is Batman, he cannot die. This is how he fights to stay alive... by throwing himself against the wall that is Batman's no-killing rule. It's all so goddamn tragic, I swear to fucking God. Joker genuinely wants to die, but by believing only Batman deserves to kill him, and by doing everything in his power to make him go dark and break his rule, he's keeping himself alive. Batman is, paradoxically, both his preferred method of suicide and his reason for living. (I’m fine. This is fine.)

However, amnesiac Joker doesn't have this to rely on! He's wiped clean of the memories that made him Joker, the decisions he's made to get there. And as a slate wiped clean, he's shown to still be craving death -- still fighting what is unavoidably depression. Without Batman, in the initial months, his life as a normal person felt meaningless, so he nearly kills himself... But then, he finds a way to survive. He finds this island of peace with the bench and the lake, this sliver of hope. He goes to that bench and puts the gun in his mouth and doesn't fire, and that's how he manages to stay alive, and content, and happy with his normal job and normal apartment. 'I have the power to leave everything behind at any moment, but there are things here to live for.'

And here's where my main point comes in: amnesiac Joker is so desperate to preserve this, because his original Joker identity is incapable of this by design. Joker, as we know him, is incapable of being truly happy, the exact same way Batman is. Amnesiac Joker and Bruce are parallels and inversions of each other in this story, like they are in everything else; Bruce is driven to become Batman again, while Joker is the one fighting against it. Alfred is so desperate to preserve Bruce as he is, keep him away from being Batman, because as Bruce Wayne he has a chance at happiness. And Joker doesn't have an Alfred to spell it out, but it's the same thing for him. Without Joker, he has a shot at genuine peace. But Batman and Joker are too deeply intertwined for Joker not to come back if Batman did, and that's ultimately why amnesiac Joker asks Bruce not to become Batman again. Their peace, and their torment, are inextricably linked.

But... you know what moment haunts me most in Batman #48? Fuck it, if I started ranting about this, might as well get it all out of my system.

Bruce turns back. When the explosion goes off, he starts running towards Jules and the people in danger, but then he stops and looks back at Joker... but there's no one there. Joker is gone. There's no one near the bench. And when he goes off running again, his face is in shadow, as if to symbolize a return to Batman.

Insert me going 'Snyder!! What does it mean?? What does it all mean??'. What would've happened if the explosion didn't go off? Was Joker actually intending to kill himself? Was it because he sensed Bruce would become Batman again no matter what he did, and would rather die while still having this fleeting happiness than go back to being Joker? If so, why didn't he kill himself any of the times after? Was Bruce's presence while he did it, in any capacity, something he needed? And if so, why? Did he need Bruce there to try and stop him from killing himself, or did he need him there because he didn't want to die alone? Is this a parallel to the end of Endgame, in which it was Joker desperately trying to stay alive while Bruce doomed them both to death? Is this a reversal of it, with Joker trying to stay human this time while Bruce is slipping back into Batman?

And why, why did Joker run away? The implication in those panels is that Bruce hesitated. What if Joker had still been there when he looked back? If Joker had insisted, or went with Bruce to the location of the explosion, if he had stayed... would that have made a difference?

God, this is why I would have loved more insight into amnesiac Joker's head! In the issue you're referring to, #51, we're shown both visually and textually that he's fighting becoming Joker again, and all this after the events of #48 transpired. Leaving aside him saying "Not yet," in DotF and Endgame, Snyder has used flies as a way to signal Joker's influence or presence. And in these panels we can see amnesiac Joker crushing the flies that keep coming at him, symbolically keeping his real identity at bay:

This does indicate a certain degree of self-awareness, at least an unconscious knowledge of who he used to be, and I need to freaking know why he ran away that time, and how he reacted to Batman returning, how he managed to stay this person instead of becoming Joker again. For that matter, we are also never told how that happened! Snyder intended to have a comic explaining what transpired after the events of Batman (2011) #48 and #51, but that comic unfortunately never came to be. Between these, which have an amnesiac Joker with no bleached skin or disfiguration, and Dark Days: The Forge and Dark Days: The Casting, there's nothing yet in canon to explain how he became the classical Joker again. We know how Batman regained his memories, but not Joker, and it bugs me immensely. In The Casting Joker says that even when he was not himself, he felt the call (of Barbatos, essentially, since both Bruce and Joker have been revived by dionesium, one of the Nth metals) -- so did he just spontaneously freaking get white skin, a grin and green hair at some point? Or did he intentionally throw himself in a vat of acid again once the memories came back? How did Joker end up imprisoned in the Batcave then, how did Bruce drag him there and why did he actually need him? Also, why did the dionesium pool restore Joker to life at the end of DotF but kept his physical Joker-like traits, but post-Endgame it healed him entirely of everything, restored him to pre-Joker appearance? Snyder!! I need answers!!

[deep breath] Anyway! I'm sorry anon, this went off the rails more than a little. Any in-depth talk of Snyder's stuff tends to send me spiralling. But I hope you still enjoyed some of my rambling!

#also thank you for the ask!#God. will Batman 48 ever cease to haunt me #went a little nuts here but look. I blame Snyder for all of it #asks #batman #joker #batman meta #joker meta #batjokes #batjokes meta #my meta #cw suicide #cw depression

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ranger-report · 4 years

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Opinion: DC and Marvel’s Multiverses Are Crucial To The Future of Superhero Film

Alright, buckle up kids, this is going to be a long one. Get some soda and some popcorn, or some green tea and avocado toast.

Back in the long-distant year of 1989, a little film called Batman released into theaters and became the film of the Summer. Directed by Tim Burton and starring Michael Keaton and Jack Nicholson as Batman and the Joker respectively, it was a cinematic triumph that heralded a new wave of superhero films taking their source material seriously. Followed up in 1992 by Batman Returns, a sequel which increased the fantastic elements but was criticized for its darker tones, Batman’s role in movies was cemented in place by continued success. Of course, Keaton and Burton would leave to be replaced by Val Kilmer as Batman with Joel Schumacher directing for 1995′s Batman Forever, with George Clooney stepping into the cape and cowl for 1997′s Batman and Robin, a wild disaster of a film which nearly destroyed Batman’s chances in movies. But then, in 2005, Christopher Nolan brought a gritty realism to the caped crusader in Batman Begins, and continued this successful experiment with 2008′s Best Film Of The Year, The Dark Knight, and 2012′s The Dark Knight Rises (which was....fine). By this time the DCEU was beginning to get started, so a new Batman was cast for Zack Synder’s 2016 Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice, and this role went to Ben Affleck. He reprised the role in David Ayer’s Suicide Squad and Joss Whedon’s Justice League, but bowed out of the opportunity to write and direct his own solo Bat-flick. So director Matt Reeves was tapped to direct a new Batman film starring a controversial choice of Robert Pattinson as Batman. With all of this, the question of the past 30-odd years is: which is your favorite Batman? Which one was the best? And how do these films fit into an increasingly convoluted canon in which a film series is rebooted every ten years or so?

What if the answer is: they’re all great and they all fit into canon?

Now, before we think too hard about that, let’s take a look at Spider-Man’s cinematic installments, which is almost more convoluted and in a more compressed amount of time. Beginning with 2002′s Spider-Man directed by Sam Raimi and starring Tobey Maguire, the amazing wall-crawler enjoyed a fantastic amount of success on the big screen, followed up by one of the best superhero films of all time, 2004′s Spider-Man 2. But Spider-Man 3 in 2007 took all of that goodwill and smashed it into the ground with a failure almost as bad as Batman and Robin a decade earlier. Plans for a Spider-Man 4 were scrapped, and eventually in 2012 director Mark Webb and star Andrew Garfield would bring a brand new Spidey to life with The Amazing Spider-Man, and The Amazing Spider-Man 2 in 2014. Both films were lively and energetic, but criticized for trying to stuff too much into their films -- especially the second one. Sony Pictures was attempting to ramp up a cinematic universe much like Marvel Films was doing at the time, but it was too much too fast. 2017 brought another reboot of the moviefilm version of Spidey, this time directed by Jon Watts and starring Tom Holland, with Spider-Man: Homecoming, this time under Marvel Film’s banner (thanks to backdoor dealing), and another cinematic triumph in 2019′s Spider-Man: Far From Home. But, unlike Batman, Spider-Man’s dealings behind the scenes are nearly as convoluted as his series. Sony Pictures owned the rights to make Spider-Man flicks for years, until Marvel managed to make a ludicrous offer after Amazing 2 failed to catch on the way producers hoped. So Spidey came to the MCU under a joint production, which is how we got Homecoming and Far From Home, but also maintained a different universe with the Amazing films, and then 2018′s Venom, and a little animated motion picture also in 2018 by the name of Spider-Man: Into The Spider-Verse.

Class, this is where I would like to direct your attention to the origin of the extraordinary events we are discussing today. Or is it the origin?

Into The Spider-Verse successfully proved that not only is the idea of multiple universes all connecting on screen a good idea, it’s an Oscar winning idea. Spider-Verse is hands down the best animated superhero film ever, and one of the best superhero films period. But here we must take note of certain ideas. The film provided much setup for a world where young Miles Morales begins to emerge with spider powers, but then Spider-Man is killed right in front of him before he can learn how to use them. Enter a Spider-Man from a slightly different parallel dimension, who not only turns Miles around, but find himself inspired to realign his own life. Spider-people abound through the film, all of them having equal weight and the possibility of spawning their own franchise without having to worry about impacting the canon of other universes. This is something comic books have done for literal decades, but Spider-Verse did it with such care and devotion that it won Best Animated Picture and became a mainstream smash hit. Marvel and Sony both sit up at attention; could this work with the major mainstream films they’ve been producing? So the experiment begins: we have a teaser trailer for Morbius, based on a vampiric Spider-Man villain, which features a cameo from the Vulture character first seen in Homecoming. And after dropping hints that Tom Holland’s Spider-Man could cross over with Tom Hardy’s Venom, Jamie Foxx recently posted about being cast as Electro -- a role he played in Amazing Spider-Man 2 -- for the third Tom Holland Spidey flick. Pictures went up on his Instragram seeming to confirm that not only was this the same Electro, but that all three previous Spider-Men -- Maguire, Garfield, and Holland -- would team up for the film. Multiple universes collide, a live action Spider-Verse, where everyone is crossing over with each other. Now, this lines up perfectly with Marvel’s MCU plans, as Doctor Strange has established in his film that multiple universes exist, and his announced sequel is even titled Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness. It’s here. It’s happening. Every Spider-Man film is canon, they’ve all happened, and we don’t need to worry about which of them make sense or belong. They all make sense.

But just before this announcement, a month or so ago DC let slip that their plans for an upcoming Flash movie are taking cues from the Flashpoint comic books, in which Barry Allen goes back in time and accidentally creates a brand new timeline that he has to correct. Michael Keaton has even been cast as Bruce Wayne, the same Bruce Wayne that he played 30-odd years ago, a casting choice many fans have been clamoring for for years. On top of that, once word was put out that Keaton’s role would be similar to Samuel L. Jackson’s role as Nick Fury in the MCU, Ben Affleck was reported to be joining the picture as Batman also, a team-up no one saw coming. Even Christian Bale is being courted to join the universe-spanning flick, but reportedly only if director Christopher Nolan gives his blessing. Multiple Batmen teaming up together in a Flash movie to combat crime? Of course I’ve already bought tickets. Batman is the biggest box-office draw outside of The Avengers. And this concept opens up plenty of opportunities for DC, who’ve done Elseworlds stories in the comic for years. Joker with Joaquin Phoenix proved that DC films not directly tied to the DCEU can and will do well on their own; The Batman with Pattinson will no doubt further confirm that. But now Batman Returns is once again a viable film mixed into a comic book cocktail of wonder and excitement? And what’s wonderful is that this isn’t DC’s first big attempt at this. Slowly and surely, The CW’s Arrowverse TV shows -- Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow -- have been doing multiverse crossovers for years, building up to 2019′s mega-event Crisis on Infinite Earths, which saw Brandon Routh reprise his role as Superman from 2006′s Superman Returns, which itself is a sequel to Christopher Reeve’s Superman and Superman II. And for one wonderful scene, TV’s Flash, Grant Gustin, got to interact with the DCEU’s Flash, Ezra Miller, confirming that these TV and film universes are indeed one big cocktail of parallel lives and dimensions that all interconnect while still being separate. Hell, we even saw Burt Ward, Robin from the 1966 Batman show, alive and well an in his own little world. Batman ‘66 is part of the wider DC Multiverse! How crazy is that? And we even got a small tease that Batman ‘89 is part of all of this as well, when we got to see reporter Alexander Knox look up to the Batsignal in the sky as Danny Elfman’s iconic score played. In one fell swoop, in as few as a casual couple of cameos, DC made all of their live-action properties canon in the multiverse, meaning no matter which version you like the best, they all work together and work from a franchising and audience standpoint. The 1978 Superman and the 1989 Batman both existed in worlds that ran sidecar to 2019′s Joker and 2011′s Green Lantern. It’s wild, unprecedented in cinematic history, and wonderful for fans of all ages.

Why is this the future of superhero flicks, though? It ought to be simple: no matter what movies come out, no matter how wild or crazy or outside “canon” they seem to be, they all can work and they all can coexist without having to confuse fans. Many people were feeling the reboot fatigue as early as 2012′s Amazing Spider-Man, and while there was a huge tone shift between Batman Returns and Batman Forever, the Bat-films were considered all part of the same line until Batman Begins started all the way over. Now we have Batman 89 and Returns in one world, Forever and Batman and Robin in another (which was already a fan theory, mind you). Sequels that don’t line up with their predecessors can just be shunted into a hidden multiverse timeline and left alone without the convoluted explanation of having to “ignore” certain sequels. Superman III & IV were ignored when Superman Returns chose to connect only to the first and second films, but now we can say that they definitely happened....just somewhere else. There is now a freedom of ideas and creation that can once again occur when making big-budget films based on superheroes. No longer do creative minds need to be restrained to the canon and timeline and overarching plots defined by studios years in advance; “creative differences” don’t need to drive frustrated directors away from characters or stories they truly love. Possibly -- just possibly -- good ideas can become the gold standard once again for comic book films, not just ten-year plans for how to get Captain America from scrawny Marine to Mjolnir-wielding badass. Remember when filmmakers decided to make Joker the same person who killed Bruce Wayne’s parents? Or when they decided to give Spider-Man the ability to shoot webs from his body instead of technology? That certainly wouldn’t fly these days; studio mandates would require adherence to previously established guidelines, or at least what has been seen in the comic. What if now we could get a three-episode limited series on HBO Max of Gotham By Gaslight? Or a big-budget adaptation of Marvel’s 1602? Simply trying to wedge old comic book storylines into existing Cinematic Universes no longer need be a thing! We could get some of the wildest interpretations of superheroes this side of Superman: Red Son. At least, that’s the hope, anyway.

When comic books can step away from canon for just a few minutes, worlds open up and expand. An entire multiverse of ideas can become a feast of entertainment for many. And when there’s already so many beautiful, well-told stories set in alternate universes as comic book precedent, so too can there be beautiful, well-told stories set in alternate universes for film. And the best part? Now they all matter. And I think that’s the future.

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jaykore · 5 years

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How Jason and Tim's relationship should be in your opinion? I don't know much about them but I wanted to ask this to you. Someone said they hate each other and I am just trying to find different opinions about it.

Oof… nonnie this is a loaded question.

This is the question that “launched a thousand ships” if youwill.

How do I answer this…. In short… They absolutely do not hateeach other, and people who are telling you that refuse to acknowledge the last8/9 years of DC comic canon. In fact, according to recent canon material, I’d go so far as to say that Tim is actually Jason’s FAVOURITE of the bat clan.

The longer answer is… under the cut.

Jason and Tim have an incredibly rocky history that beganextremely negatively. I don’t know how much you’ve read nonnie, but the ColesNotes version is that Jason was the second Robin, before Tim. He was murdered at the hands of the Joker and when he came back to life, he found that Bruce had “replaced” him with a new kiddo. Not just replacing him as “Robin” but in his life; like Jason, as a son, was easily replaceable. (At least that’s how Jay perceived it).

Jason was hurt, and angry, and personally, I don’t think he ever truly hated Tim. I think that Tim was the unfortunate target of all his rage, and in an effort to hurt Bruce he targeted and on occasion brutalized Tim. In the worst instance he corned him alone in Titans Tower and attacked him, leaving him bloody and on the verge of death. Jason’s mental health has never truly been explored by any comic writers, but it’s a “fanon headcanon” that part of Jason’s anger was due to what people call “pit rage”. In that they believe that the Lazarus pit that Jason was dunked in knocked some things loose and made him a little crazy. I believe… (and people can correct me if I’m wrong) that this may have been referenced in the comics somewhere; that the Lazarus Pit effects people in that way. And so… if you tend to be in the more “forgiving” group, you can see where Jason, who is already a troubled teen, dunked in a rage pit, and feeling like he’s been kicked to the curb, could go a little insane. Not that this is right by any means…

The interesting thing about Jason is, even though it appears he hates, or wants to hurt Tim, over time we see that there may actually be a grudging respect? Jason asks Tim to team up with him on occasion to help clean up Gotham’s underbelly. Tim declines, and Jason just pretty much accepts that’s how it is,or they fight and go their separate ways.

For Tim’s part, it appears that he never truly hated Jason. Tim even looked up to him at a point. When Jason came back they were both frustrated and hurt and angry and they’d fight… Jason viciously. But even after Jason is locked in jail by Dick, Tim STILL believes that there’s good in Jason, and finds a way to break him free. Jason also stabs Tim in the chest in Battle for the Cowl… and yet he still doesn’t hate him. Tim’s a saint lets be honest lmao.

Enter the retcon that everyone loves to hate. New52. In which DC revamped their canon and released a line of 52 new series in 2011. With it, many characters and their backstories were also changed, including… I bet you can guess… Jason and Tim’s! However… lots of people conveniently henpeck and/or ignore this canon all together, such as those telling you that Jason hates Tim and/or is his adopted brother. According to current canon… absolutely not true.

When they retconned everyone’s stories… Jason was the only kiddo officially adopted by Bruce Wayne. Dick Grayson was his “ward” but never his “son”, and Tim Drake’s parents are still very much alive. Tim is never adopted by Bruce, and in fact, never becomes “Robin”, therefore, he doesn’t “replace” Jason in the same way. It is heavily implied that Jason and Tim had issues when Jay came back from the dead, however… Tim has forgiven Jason and moved past that. Jason and Tim find an odd camaraderie in being the “black sheep” of the family, the Robins that “didn’t quite make the cut” if you will.

They often work together, side by side in titles like “Batman Eternal”. “Batman & Robin Eternal”, the “Robin Wars” and “Death of the Family” events… etc etc; Tim even makes cameos in Jason’s series, “Red Hood and the Outlaws” in which he tells Jason he’s forgiven him, and hopes that one day everyone else can move on too. They work together a bit in “Red Hood/Arsenal” as well.

So… in short. If you ignore the last decade of DC comic canon, you can probably say that Tim and Jason tolerate each other. Even then, I don’t think “hate” is the correct word. I think to say they “hate” is each other is oversimplifying and negating a lot of the complexities of both characters and their relationship overall.

If you follow canon… you’re an absolute liar to try and tell people that they “hate” each other. They simply DON’T. Not now anyway 😊

At the end of day, to each their own. I just wish that people would be honest with the facts.

So I hope that helps nonnie! And you go out there and form your own opinions! But in the meantime, I’ll leave you with some lovely collaborative canon JayTim content :D Because they like each other…

Last time I checked we don’t generally give people we hate fun nicknames, like “Timbers”.

NOTE BIEN! ***THE ONLY MEMBER OF THE BAT FAMILY THAT DOESN’T MAKE ME THROW UP A LITTLE WHEN I SEE HIM*** aka Jay’s FAVE of the famdamily lol

Or help people we hate….

We don’t generally flirt with people we hate either (ahem… yesmy shipper goggles are on)

Nor do we wanna fight bad guys with people we hate….? ButTim does…

*Tim and Jason ‘fought’ each other to throw the Joker off…

And Tim gives him sweet compliments… lmao

Lastly, in Rebirth, while they don’t work with/see each other asmuch as they did in the New52 runs, they’re still aware of/affected by eachother. In particular Jason, who still appreciates Tim, and when Tim “dies”, hasa hard time bringing himself to attend Tim’s funeral.

So yeah… I don’t…. see the hate… lol But I do see something else -eyebrow waggle- haha

#jaytim #jason todd #tim drake #red hood #red robin #Anonymous #long post #photo heavy #the longest post that ever posted #I am tired of people ignoring canon for their own agenda #reference #jaytim relationship #and anyone is welcome to politely correct me if I've misspoken as I'm working from memory #and you're allowed to disagree with me politely and message me privately if you want to chat more about this

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