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pyroreadscomics · 5 months

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Three Interesting & Oddball Catwoman Comics

So, I'm working on a full Post-Crisis Catwoman reading list (pray for me) but I've realized there are certain comics that, while they wouldn't make any but the most bloated (and / or obsessively complete) reading guides, I find fascinating in some way.

So, here's three issues that are completely optional Catwoman reading: (Below the cut to save your dashboards.)

GREEN ARROW (1988) #86

This comic on its own would be notable because Catwoman made shockingly few out of Gotham guest appearances during the New Earth era. Sure she’d pop up in Batfamily books every other month on average, but times when Selina broke out of the Bat-sphere are truly few and far between. In fact, in terms of guest appearances in other peoples solo titles there’s really only that one digital first Wonder Woman comic where Selina makes a very chibi appearance (it’s great) and… actually that’s the list. Even expanding out to the series of teams that don’t have Batman or Catwoman as members and aren’t Batman adjacent all you have is three pretty good issues of JSA: Classified and a debate about where or not the Birds of Prey being minimum half Gothamite at all times makes them bat-adjacent.

This is genuinely the only guest appearance outside of Gotham she makes that doesn’t come with a bunch of asterisks. As for the plot of the book, Oliver Queen, currently not in Star City, ends up tangling with some thieves who’ve smuggled Incan artifacts out of Peru. While looking to defeat them he ends up teaming up with early Balent Catwoman.

The interesting thing, for me at least, is that Catwoman’s above board here. She’s not just stealing the artifacts to sell herself, she's been contracted by the government of Peru to return their stolen artifacts. This is, quite possibly, the origin of the “Catwoman who steals artifacts to return them to their country of origin” trope that pops up in fan content from time to time.

To be clear, the comic firmly establishes that Selina’s not doing this out of the kindness of her heart but more that a paycheck’s a paycheck and it’s less hassle than fencing the stuff herself.

Still, it’s interesting to me that this trope both seems to originate in the comics, but also not be there a lot. I haven’t read the bronze age stuff. I haven’t read (all) the New 52 and Rebirth stuff. But I have read almost 600 issues of New Earth Selina Kyle appearances and I'm fairly certain that this is the only appearance of “Catwoman, Government Repo Agent” or “Catwoman, reverse British Museum” in the entirety of the New Earth timeline.

And ain’t that interesting?

BATMAN BLACK AND WHITE (2013) #6/4 "She Lies at Midnite"

Well first things first. Yes this issue was published after the New 52 reboot. However it’s very clearly set in the New Earth continuity. For those unaware, Selina’s personal history, interpersonal relationships, character depth and character development all got nuked by the reboot and this story has tied to several elements that a Non-Canon to the New 52. As such I, like the wiki, am counting this as “basically New Earth”

Secondly, while the other two stories are interesting to me for various meta reasons, this one is simply a compelling story (which also, makes me conscious of not wishing to dissect it like a frog to an audience that might enjoy a blind read.). Though being a Batman centric story, it explores the messier aspects of Bruce and Selina’s relationship in a way that adds a bit of nuance to their relationship while keeping everyone in character (well… there's some lines of dialogue I don't quite vibe with, but everyone's actions, motivations and dynamics are in character and those are the important bits)

Also because it's one story in an anthology it's really short, only 7 pages.

So tell y'all what, I'll talk about the last story first, and then I'll do the full spoiler breakdown of why I find this story fascinating.

CATWOMAN (1993) #89 (HARLEY QUINN EDITION)

This is, I believe, the only issue* of Catwoman where Selina never makes an appearance

Even when Eiko or Holly took over the role she at least made appearances in every issue even if they were minor. Here though? She's only referenced, though she's referenced alot.

(Note: yes Selina doesn't appear in either the first annual or Catwoman 1,000,000. But counterpoint, those are basically Sci-fi and Fantasy AUs and that’s a level of pedantry even I don't care for)

The plot itself goes like this: Doctor Harleen Quinzel goes to a TV company and pitches a show based on the adventures of Catwoman, as seen through Harley’s eyes. It’s a version of events where Harley Quinn is Catwoman’s best friend, and they commit crimes, team up with Poison Ivy, and fight Batman and Commissioner Gordon. The TV executives (who somehow seem oblivious to the fact that A) Catwoman’s a real person and b) the person they’re talking to is a supervillain) start reworking the pitch of the show to be more corporate and kid friendly, much to the anger of Harley who murders the executives with Joker Gas, ending the issue.

Now, talking about a story within a story is always going to get a bit meta, but I’m going to start small and then work my way up to the scene that inspired this whole post.

Firstly… Harley’s TV pitch is where we get specifics on Selina’s parents background. Sure in they’re last appearance Brian was a racist white guy and Maria was clearly a Latina immigrant, but this is I believe the first (and potentially only) time Maria is labeled Cuban and Brian is labeled as Irish. Which also means, unless I'm forgetting another instance of this information being brought up, we’re just taking Harley’s word on this.

Secondly, Harley casting herself as Selina’s best friend is, amazingly, not necessarily incorrect.

For context, this is a year and a half into Harley Quinn’s run as a canon character. Despite that she has interacted with Selina once before. It’s a bit of an involved story but the short version is, Selina get sent to prison. The person in the next cell ends up being Harley Quinn, who Selina ends up telling all about her childhood, then the pair escape, though Harley stabs Selina with a knife to pull it off and then, once they’re free, drugs and hypnotizes Selina into helping with a plan to kill Batman.

Now you’d reasonably think that that’s disqualifying behavior for best friend status but… counterpoint, who else is it? Her sister Maggie? They haven’t talked in a decade (both in universe and out). Holly? Same as Maggie. Arizona? She’s an amnesiac child and even if she remembers Catwoman, the writers have forgotten her. Zee and/or Clutterbuck? They were at best work colleges and ones who haven’t appeared in years at that (also if you remembered they existed at all i am genuinely impressed). One of the other rouges? She’s not great terms with any of them, even the ones who haven’t tried to kill her (which is most of them).

(also "Which orphanage were you in?" damn Selina) Harley meanwhile is actually the first person in canon that Selina told her backstory to. Harley knew before Bruce about how Selina’s parents died. Also, despite Harley’s mind control gambit, Harley is insistent she cares about Selina, and Selina clearly doesn’t hold that big a grudge as, the same month this issue came out, she was in Harley’s solo for a party.

90s Catwoman, with a few brief exceptions, was so against maintaining a consistent supporting cast for Selina that Harley is the clear winner for the best friend award, at least in this moment of time.

Third, minor point but I Harley’s little fanfic contains not merely the specific Catwoman/Harley/Ivy team up in comics, but also, the first time Ivy and Catwoman have teamed up outside of the Long Halloween (where all the rogues end up working together in the end). Indeed the last time Catwoman and Ivy were in the same comic it was Cataclysm and Selina ended up force feeding Ivy a seed that grew roots out of… everywhere. Needless to say, they weren’t friends at the time. Though, in Harley’s world, they were.

(In fact, for those unfamiliar, during the original Gotham City Sirens run, Selina and Ivy were somewhat antagonistic towards each other, but tried to get along for the sake of their mutual friend Harley Quinn.)

Lastly, and most metatextually interesting, is Harley’s exact words when her story got sanded down for boarder market appeal.

“This isn’t my Story! Catwoman is a grownup! Her Friends are grownups! That big,dumb lump of a Ratman that she flirts with is a grownup! She Steals stuff, she fights with people, she outsmarts the cops! You don’t need to make all those stupid changes— she’s fine just the way she is!”

This story has a cover date of February 2001. Within a year, Brubaker’s run of Catwoman resets the numbering and radically overhauls the character. Catwoman’s characterization pivots out of “selfish loner thief who’s a bit of a bastard with a heart of gold buried so deep it takes mass tragedy to get it to show just a little” to “a vigilante with a found family who’s deeply concerned about the welfare of her one specific run down corner of Gotham.” She becomes a hero.

Now, I personally really like Brubaker’s run, he’s easily one of the three best writers the character’s ever had, but there’s no denying that it’s a change.

And so, reading that line of Harley’s struck me as… shockingly prophetic. Sure Selina didn’t get aged down into a teenager who solved crimes for the government, but she was toned down into a more explicit robin hood and made less adversarial with Batman. Now I doubt the line was written with knowledge of where Brubaker’s reboot would take the character, or even that Brubaker had even agreed to helm Catwoman when the script was turned in but… I can’t help but wonder why this issue was written. Because stories about stories are always meta in some way.

BATMAN BLACK AND WHITE (2013) #6/4 "She Lies at Midnite" (For Real this Time)

Right spoilers ago: This story starts with Selina paralyzed.

Bruce takes a bit longer then me getting there but that is how we start. With a explainer that Catwoman got involved in a gang war that was targeting sex workers and got her spine broken for the trouble. And now the doctor is saying that she'll never walk again.

This deeply affects Bruce who has a flashback to Barbara’s paralyzation.

Bruce tracks the two gangs down to a standoff and... to quote Bruce:

I'll spare you the details. Skylight. Gunfire. Screams. The usual.

It's not until he's done breaking "every leg in the house" that he runs into a surprise appearance: Slam Bradley, who's taking care of the mooks outside. (for the Catwoman readers: firstly, thanks for reading this far, secondly, Slam’s… honestly an important character overall but the short version is his a bar brawling P.I. who was one of the few love interests Selina’s ever had that’s long term relevant)

Bruce is unsurprised to see him, given his connection to Selina, and tries to commiserate with him in his own Batman-y way, but that's all thrown for a loop when Slam reveals that he's here because Selina asked him to handle these gangs earlier that night (You know, when she should have been conscious in the hospital)

And… honestly I can’t put this next bit better than the comic itself.

Jesus fuck Selina that's cold

Anyway, Bruce immediately tracks Selina down (It's not hard, she's robbing the leaders of the gangs houses while Batman was putting the membership in a hospital) bringing Slam along just cause I guess.

Bruce is beyond pissed off and wants answers and after this... wonderful panel, Selina explains

When Bruce asks why Selina didn't just ask for help, Selina laughs and says "Slammy here, him I could just ask! You'd put it on your tp-do list, somewhere way down, past Joker's latest attempt to poison the water supply or Eddie's latest Head-Scratcher"

That wasn't fast enough for Selina, and given she wasn't up to the job she certainly didn't want it handed off to one of the Robins. Therefore, if it was a job that needed Batman, but it wasn't important enough, Selina had to make it important to Bruce.

Hence... faking being paralyzed and also deliberately invoking one Bruce's old traumas against him. Which I get but also damn Selina.

Bruce is actually so pissed off it looks like he's about to fight Selina, but Selina surrenders instead and the story ends with Selina in the batmobile, in cuffs, (though Bruce agrees to stop for ice cream on the way to the station, indicating he's... maybe cooling off a bit).

While it's not actually the worst thing Selina's ever done to Bruce technically, this incident didn't even draw any blood. It's.... It reads like a profound betrayal of trust. Selina took an insecurity of Bruce's she could only know about after being inducted into the Bat family and used it against him without remorse. (Which... post: Tower of Babel Bruce does not get to criticize this move but it's still cold).

And then, there's the fact that Selina did this because she, reasonably, couldn't actually trust Bruce to help her out without that manipulation. It's not even Selina acting selfishly for once, it's Selina trying to protect innocents.

And the weird thing is, outside of a few dialogue choices, everyone's perfectly in character here. This is a stunt canon Selina would easily pull if the circumstances lined up the same.

I will say, I totally get where Selina's coming from, even sympathize with it a little. Batman is someone who's constantly pulled in a thousand different directions and can't actually be relied on to help in a weird way. There's a reason the worst sections of Gotham keep getting dedicated superheroes (Onyx for the Hill, Catwoman for the East End) and that's because Batman doesn't have the time to help these areas as thoroughly as they need.

And of course, being a part of these communities in a way Batman just can't be, they end up seeing the problems much more up close and personal.

Like, take the original storyline where Selina commits to being a vigilante rather than a supervillain. In that storyline there's a serial killer going after sex workers and while Selina has reason to be invested (She used to be sex worker, she finds out because a friend who is a sex worker shows up at her safe house looking to hide,) the thing that tips her over the edge into action is those things PLUS the inaction of those who should be dealing with the situation. The police straight up do not care (there's a scene where they find a body and they instead of trying to record evidence go through her wallet for cash and crack jokes) and Batman, while he's... not malicious like that, it is called out by Selina that while they may be victims, to Batman they are still criminals in his eye and thus not high on his priority list, even if they are being murdered.

That's all canon.

So... what's Selina to do? There are two gangs tearing up the streets and killing sex workers (which, conversely to Bruce, is something that always sits at the top of her priority list). If she can't just rob them out of existence, doesn't have the skills to fight them on head and win, and Batman ain't doing shit... what opinion does she have but to manipulate Batman into action. (and, to be clear, if Selina had already decided the correct solution to this problem was manipulating Batman, and also had enough time to set up the whole deception, then Batman had time to respond to the situation on his own and didn't.)

To Selina, this whole operation, while a punch below the belt on Bruce and potentially permanently damaging their relationship, would save lives. Her motivations were pure.

It's just...

It's still betraying Bruce's trust, using knowledge of his private pains against him. Skipping right over the asking for help step because she didn't trust him to help. And yet, the only way any of this works is if Bruce trusted Selina enough to let her in, and Selina trusted Bruce to avenge her. (Also side note: very much the only reason Slam's here is as a counterpoint to Bruce as someone Selina trusted to help without manipulation. Which depending on when this is supposed to be timeline wise (are they dating, is this before or after Selina lost his granddaughter) potentially speaks volumes about Selina's trust in Slam.)

It's such an emotionally messy story for only 7 pages and it’s the sort of shit I live for.

#catwoman #selina kyle #catwoman comics #oh btw that convo about Bruce Selina and trust #Almost segued into their relationship in one of the Legends of the Dark Knight comics #the one where they team up to defeat Thomas Blake the first time he popped up #but I couldn't figure out the transition

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ao3feed-brucewayne · 1 month

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Reverse Stalking Syndrome

read it on AO3 at https://ift.tt/0xF2OqM by LialeeEderian [Working Title: Reverse-Stalking - Or, How Creeping Through The Shadows Ended Up Being Way Too Popular] but then I realized it wasn't strictly true. :) In which Tim Drake returns to Gotham and finds himself a suspicious Wayne Family who seem a tad obsessed. Well, it's not like Tim didn't intend to not interfere anyway, so all the better for him. Words: 1693, Chapters: 1/10, Language: English Series: Part 5 of Otherworlds - A Tim Drake Special Fandoms: Batman - All Media Types, DCU Rating: Teen And Up Audiences Warnings: Creator Chose Not To Use Archive Warnings Categories: Gen Characters: Tim Drake, Bruce Wayne, Dick Grayson, Alfred Pennyworth, Damian Wayne, Jason Todd Relationships: Tim Drake & Dick Grayson & Jason Todd & Bruce Wayne & Damian Wayne Additional Tags: Tim Drake is Not a Batfamily Member, Good Parents Jack Drake and Janet Drake, mostly - Freeform, Tim Drake-centric, Tim Drake is Not Robin, Photographer Tim Drake, Hijinks & Shenanigans, Tim Drake is a Menace, Tim Drake's Hero Worship, Where everything is the same but not, Tim Drake Has a Good Time, Not a Crossover, But there are Guest Stars, OOC-ness, Madlad Tim Drake, Light-Hearted read it on AO3 at https://ift.tt/0xF2OqM

#IFTTT #bruce wayne #batman #the caped crusader #the dark knight #dcu #ao3 #ao3feed

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batarangsoundsdumb · 3 years

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dick grayson never became a cop but instead played an officer on a copaganda show because bruce said "you'll never get anywhere in life if you don't go to college" and he decided to try and win a primetime emmy in retaliation

#(he doesn't win the emmy)#he gets like moderately famous for being in that one cop show and sometimes guest stars in other cool prime time shows #until one day somebody points out that 'wait a minute that's bruce wayne's son isn't it?'#and he's like 'no me and bruce wayne's son just have the same name it's a common mistake'#'no its a common mistake my little brother tim is not the same guy as timothy drake ceo of wayne enterprises'#'no my brother jay is not jason todd there's this one big difference in that jason todd is dead and my brother jay is evidently not'#'nah this isn't damian wayne im just babysitting'#'duke thomas who? i only know a thomas duke'#'cass cain no that's not a familiar name this is my bodyguard'#dick grayson #bruce wayne #dc #dc comics #dcu #nightwing #batman #batfam #batfamily

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doc-anders · 4 years

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“Bruce having lunch with Clark: Why isn’t Jordan back yet, I should check”

#Guest Star: Hal Jordan #May he rest in piss #batfamily #batfam #dick grayson #jason todd #hal jordan #nightwing #red hood #green lantern #dc #batman #bruce wayne #radio batman #archives

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bigfan-fanfic · 3 years

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The Love-to-Hate Character (Batdad x Batfamily)

Requested by @yesthetrashbin for May I request a hc of batdad having a little side career for acting? Like, maybe he's offered a major role in TWD or something and the rest of the batfam reacts to his character?

It was very funny to hear you were offered a role in The Walking Dead.

You had done a couple of acting gigs back during your college years, and apparently that was enough to earn you a guest appearance.

But the directors and writers liked you so much they greatly expanded your role.

It was fun to take a break in order to participate in the show, although it was a lot of work in and of itself.

You get to be the secondary villain of the season. Originally your character was just going to be a one-episode villain who tricks the heroes out of their supplies, but your performance gets you much more.

But you’ve kept all these spoilers hidden from your boys.

They’re so prepared to just point at you when you come on screen for five minutes and cheer you on.

But then???

You come back in the next episode????

And you kill one of the main characters?????

And you turn out to be a major villain??????

Dick and Jason are going out of their minds with excitement, and Bruce enjoys your portrayal.

Obviously being a Gothamite gives you some experience with villains, and you do really well going evil but not over the top.

Gotham social media blows up over it, especially since you are well-liked in the city and they love seeing your character, especially how different he is from the real you.

Clark sees it (Lois is an avid fan of the show and the comics and made him watch) and he loves quoting your character at you.

Fan response is so great that you get called back to reprise your character for the next season - and you get to be gay on screen with a co-star as a loving yet villainous couple.

Bruce doesn’t mind your intimate scenes with the other actor, although Jason and Tim tease him and you. Bruce even proclaims in an interview that he wouldn’t mind it if he joined you two in bed sometime, but that’s just Brucie being Brucie - he’s said that about a lot of stars as befits his playboy persona.

Although to be honest Bruce and you as a married couple with a sweet actor boyfriend... I could see it happening.

But anywho, just everyone being surprised at your character

Dick live-tweets his reactions, and takes little clips of your reactions to shocking moments on the show

Jason turns one into a meme “tfw when you know exactly what you did... but you still get surprised when you see it on tv”

#male reader #batdad reader #batdad reader x batman #batdad x batfamily #batman x male reader #batfamily x male reader #batman headcanons #headcanons #dc headcanons

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me1ancho1y-b1iss · 3 years

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Her Robin and His Little Ladybug Ch. 6

As soon as Jason’s exclamation was let out. Tikki zipped out of Marinette’s bag and flew up to Damian. “Hello Tikki” Damian nodded

“Hello little Cat!” Tikki said “what’s your name this time around?”

“Damian.”

“Ok, ok, ok. We get it. Big ‘ol happy family reunion. Big whoop. Can someone tell us what just happened!” Jason yelled exasperated

“Jason!” Dick exclaimed hitting Jason on the back of the head

Tikki floated up in front of the Batfamily saying, “Hi! I’m Tikki, kwamii of Creation.” Tikki turned back around to face Marinette and Damian. “I’m going to go get Plagg, he should be able to help explain what's happening.” Tikki soon left with Kalkii through a portal

“Ok. what the fuck. Demon spawn you got some explaining to do.” Jason said

“Tt. Just wait until Plagg and Tikki get back.” Damian said leveling his family with a glare that silenced all of them.

After a few minutes a baby blue portal opened and Tikki, Plagg and Kalkii all popped out.

When Damian saw Plagg he got tears in his eyes for the second time that day.

“Plagg!” He yelled

“KIT!” Plagg yelled back and rushed to Damians cheek to hug him. Damian responded positively and hugged the little Kwamii back.

After the happy reunion all the people present in the back batcave were ushered to the table. Everyone was seated with the three Kwamiis hovering above it.

Bruce, still dressed as Batman spoke first addressing the Kwamii and the two youngest, “Let’s start at the beginning.”

“Well father, this is Tikki and Plagg, the God and Goddess of creation and destruction, essentially” Damian stated

Bruce hummed, he’d seen wieder things but his youngest hugging a stranger was definitely among weirdest and he needed to know the reason behind it.

“In the very beginning just me and Plagg were created, out of what we don't know,” Tikki started. “We created the heavens and eventually other kwamis were created, at the time the kwamis didn’t have a physical shape. All the kwamis represent a concept, for example me and Plagg represent Creation, order and good luck and destruction, chaos and bad luck, respectively. There are other Kwamis that represent other concepts such as protection and transformation, to name a few. Over time my creation powers overflowed and created a multitude of universes, to counteract this Plagg’s power created what you humans have named as black holes, they are just essentially just small pockets of Plagg’s power. Plagg also destroyed planets and stars and whole galaxies. All of this was done for balance, everything requires balance, without creation you have destruction and without destruction, creation runs rampant.”

“When Earth was created, along with the humans, all the Kwamis were interested. It wasn't till a human mage reached us that we were able to interact with humans. The original 19 kwami decided to go down to earth and interact with more humans thus the miraculous were born.” Tikki continued. “Plagg and I created two souls that are 100% in tune with us. While any person could wield the ladybug and cat miraculous, Damian’s and Marinette’s souls will be more in tune. Some people who have wielded my miraculous and was still a good fit are a few people you might recognize such as Fa Mulan, Hippolyta and Joan of Arc.”

“Each soul is reborn when the universe is in a great time of need and they are never reborn without each other.” Tikki said

The room was quiet for a moment then absolute chaos.

When the brothers finally realized that their questions, ahem demands, weren’t being answered they started to quiet down, though they were still somewhat tense. Hey, it wasn’t everyday that one discovered that their hellspawn of a little brother had a magical girlfriend that he apparently had throughout time. Yeah, maybe that was still processing a little.

“Quiet, you imbeciles. If you want your questions answered I suggest that you be silent.” Damian said a little exasperated. “I apologise for my idotic brothers, priya. They are still learning their manners and have yet to know how to behave in front of a guest.” Damian continued, glaring at the annoyances of his life that he sometimes considers his brothers to drive his point home. They just shrugged in response.

Marinette beckoned Tikki over while Damian was staring down his siblings into silence. “Hey Tikki,” she whispered. “Is there any way to get rid of the Lazarus Pits effects? I noticed hood had some remnants on him? And I want to help, Damian has definitely been dipped into the pit, but we both know that the pits don’t affect him much.” Marinette finished. She really hoped that they could red hood could be helped in some way.

“Oh Marinette,” Tikki sighed sadly. Her bug was always trying to help people. “I think I might be able to cut back on some of the effects, but we both know that he will never be truly healed.” Marinette only nodded sadly.

At that point Damian looked back over at Marinette and decided to broach the topic of what was bothering her, none of the conversation topics had been too heavy, so Damian had no clue on what could've been bothering her. “What is it?” he asked

“I think I might be able to help your brother out.” Marinette responded

Damian raised an eyebrow at this, his brothers needed a lot of help. “With what exactly?” Damian questioned.

Marinette took a deep breath before looking up straight at Red Hood saying,

“The Lazarus Pits”

At her words Damians eyes went comically wide as he was hit with a load of repressed memories. Jason promptly started choking while the rest of the family was looking at Marinette with a new found wariness.

“W-what?” Jason choked out.

Marinette sighed looking at Damian for a confirmation. Once he nodded she continued. “The reason Hawkmoth is even active is because when you combine the miraculous of the ladybug and the miraculous of the black cat the wielder is able to make a wish. The wish is able to bend reality, it’s life altering. Hawkmoth wants the miraculi to fulfill his wish, however no matter the wish, it would cause severe unbalance. As Tikki stated earlier everything requires balance, for example if he wished to bring someone back to life, someone else would have to die in their place.”

All the bats took this in becoming very aware of what could possibly happen if Hawkmoth were to win.

Damian sighed heavily before continuing where Marinette left off. “During one of our former lives, we were in an intense battle. At the end I noticed E- well now Marinette lying unconscious. I ran to her hoping she would heal herself, but I was there too late.” Damian let out a shuddering breath. “She was gone and I was desperate to get her back. I knew I would eventually see her again, but the fact that she was gone was still fresh in my mind. So I combined the ladybug miraculous and the black cat miraculous. I knew the consequences, but at the moment I just needed her back in my arms. Alive. So I made a wish. The wish formed what are now known as The Lazarus Pits. However, as life requires balance, the pit would cause madness for anyone who descends into its waters while still giving a person new life. There were no such consequences on Marinette due to the fact that she wielded the ladybug miraculous, but I know it was still the wrong decision to make.” As Damian finished speaking, Marinette gently squeezed his hand offering her silent support, while Damian’s father and brothers stared at him; they’ve never seen him express so much emotion before.

“I was asking Tikki if there was a way to somewhat reverse the effects of the pits.” Marinette spoke staring directly at Red Hood for a second time that day. “It won't reverse everything but it will hopefully take the edge off so to speak, if it does work.”

“So what do you say, Red Hood?” Marinette smirked

A/N: I finally posted chapter 6. we also finally get more background. Hopefully my explanations make sense, every fic I’ve read where they explain the miraculous origin is different so I hope mine is understandable. There will definitely be more past life stories in later chapters but the lazarus story leads us into the next chapter and I couldn’t get the idea that damian saved marinette by combining the miraculous out of my head so... you have this

Taglist: @bumblebeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee @toodaloo-kangaroo @aespades @mochegato @daminette5074 @yannowhatigiveup @sekhmet5 @alyssadeliv @kking13 @callmewhatyouwant00 @henie04 @buginetye (if you to want be added, ask and I’ll add you)

#maribat #maridami #daminette #damian x marinette #mlb x dc #mlb crossover #dc crossover #soulmate au #but not really

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unmaskedagain · 4 years

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Masterpost

Miraculous Ladybug

Queen of Mean AU

Queen of Mean - Part 1

Worse than the Devil

Made me Do (Queen of Mean)

Sorry (Not Sorry) Queen Mari AU Continuation

I Forgot (Queen Of Mean Au)

CROSSOVER AUs

Marinette: A legacy (Legacies/Vampire DIaries/ Originals)

The Fast and Furious Times Of Marinette (Ladybug/Fast and Furious AU)

The Fast and Furious Times Of Marinette – Headcannons

Marinette: Iron Man’s Minion (Marvel)

Marinette: Iron Man’s Minion: Rising (Part 2)

Ladybug in Smallville (DCg)

Ladybug in Gotham (and Space) (Part 2)

Ladybug (Not) In Paris (Part 3)

Demon princess (Inuyasha Crossover)

Five boys the Batfamily scared off (And the one boy who helped Marinette get revenge on them all)

Journal entries from a (Fashion) Princess (Princess Diaries)

Cry Little Sister (Come to Your brother) (Lost Boys)

Marinette: Blood Of Steel (Young Justice)

Marinette: Mother of Superboy (Young Justice)

Lady Noire In Gotham (Batman)

Kid Cold (The Flash Au)

DAY AND NIGHT (DC Crossover)

Marinette: Adventures at Camp-Halfblood (PJO crossover)

No, Bruce! You can’t Adopt her

Ladybug: A young Avenger

Marinette VS Santa

Marinette Vs Santa (Part 1)

Marinette Vs Santa: The Rematch

Marinette Vs Santa: The Final Round

Fan Art

I Knew You Were Trouble (Halloween Town)

Sorry, it’s reserved (Young Justice)

Spider Vs Bird (DC/MARVEL/Ladybug)

Marinette: A merry Little Nightmare (Nightmare before Christmas)

Agent Marinette (Agents of Shield/Marvel/Ladybug)

Irredeemable my foot (Chloe AND Sabrina Sugar) (Batman)

Marinette the Vampire Slayer (Buffy the Vampire Slayer crossover)

Marinette: Adventure on the Tardis 1.0

Marinette on the Tardis Au 2.0

Daddy’s Little Villain (Young Justice)

To all Guys a Chat Loved Before (Adrien Sugar. Batman, Avengers, PJO crossover)

Remember You Young (Kids Next Door Crossover)

One SHOTS

Rather be Me (than with You)

Mean Queens (Alya Sugar)

Tattered Remains of Broken Dreams (Yours, not Mine)

White Horse (This Ain’t a Fairytale)

Over This (Over you)

Best Birthday Wishes

Bridges Burned (Mama always told me that I should play nice. But she never met you)

Truth is Subjective

Archenemies to Superfriends (Lila-sugar)

Of Promises and Sands of Time (Warning Gabriel-Centric)

Rock Star

Marinette: Crazy Rich

Marinette’s Week Off

Marinette’s Life (after the Week Off)

Rate This (Trust is Hard to Come By)

Raise Yourselves up (We’re Done)

How about… No!

Yeah, I’m done

You had a Friend in Me

Wolves don’t Party with Sheep

Happy Birthday, Miss Bustier

Oh Lady Luck (How I miss you so!)

Gabriel Agreste Must Die

Marinette: Stone Cold

A wolf’s job

Marinette’s Haunted doll AU

And We’ll Always Be Royal

Not Waiting forever

Marinette’s Special guest

Adrien Centric One-Shots

Chaotic Chat

Teenage Rebellion

DRABBLE

Gabriel’s Regret

Soul Chaser Drabbles

#masterpost #Unmasked

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afaimsarrowverse · 3 years

Text

Arrowverse Update 2021:

(No, I won’t call it The CW-Verse).

Yes, I promised you one of these ages ago, but then RL turned everything around on its head, and I did not want to make one before all the shows were back in production and there was anything solid to tell you. So now I have lots.

Only facts here, not politics, and only slight speculation regarding future developments, as always.

Batwoman

Season 2 will start airing on the 17th of January and return to the shows usual time slot. They are planning to produce 19 episodes for this season. However given the times we are living in another production shutdown could prevent that number tob e fullfilled again, so take it with a grain of salt.

One of these 19 episodes will be part of this years Crossover-Event, which is a two parter and crosses over with „Superman& Lois“. Characters from the other shows are set to appear as well, however who that will be is unknown at this point. The Flash will probably be in it, aswell as someone from „Supergirl“, however if this someone is Kara is up for debate right now. John Constantine, Mick Rory, and Nate Heywood are the most likley candidates for someone from „Legends“. „Black Lightning“ is most likley not participating in the crossover. However someone from „Arrow“ might show up in it instead.

Ruby Rose is off the show and so is Kate Kane.

Just to clearify: Ruby Rose was not fired from the show , the higher ups at Warner and The CW were as surprised as we were about her decescion to leave, and Season 1 did not fail, quite the opposite actually: Until „Stargirl“ came along, „Batwoman“ was Number 3 on The CW, only „The Flash“ and „Riverdale“ did better. If the ratings of „Batwoman“ would have been bad, the whole network would be forced to shut down. Yes, the ratings dropped after „Crisis“ (but they dropped for all the shows except for „Arrow“ after the crossover), but they recovered, and overall „Batwoman“ was doing a lot better than let’s said fan favourite shows like „SPN“. The Powers That Be had every intention to go forward with Season 2 as originally planned.

Ruby Rose hurt her back a while back and had an emergency surgery after which she returned to the set of „Batwoman“, thereby disregarding her health. She has been suffering from chronical pain ever since. Thanks to Lockdown she was able to live the difference, a life without Batsuit, stunt work, and shooting days – and decided to quit. On the long run this might have happened eventually anyways. The actress has a history of depression and has been bullied online since the day it was announced that she got the part – by her own community as well as by Alt.Right Fanboys, who hate woman, LGBT-Characters, The CW, and the idea of anyone but Bruce Wayne being a Bat-Hero. Add that to physical pain, hard working hours, and a dislike for Vancouver, why should someone do that herself on the long run? However, it would not have happend between Season 1 and 2, and the writers would have had a chance to write Kate out of the show gardually and to build up an heir to her mantle at the same time. Now none of this will happen.

The producers decided against recasting Kate Kane as well as against making an established character into the new Batwoman. They even decided against bringing another Batfamily character from the comics into the show or introduce someone with ties to the established cast into the show for that purpose (like a cousin of Kate or Luke Foxs sister). Instead the quickly made up a brand new character – Ryan Wilder.

Ryan Wilder was invented for the show. Yes, she has shown up in a recent „Batgirl“ Comic, but make no mistake, she was inserted into that comic to make it look like she is a character from the comics, even though she isn’t. The Scripts for Season 2 predate that comic appearance by quite some time.

Javicia Leslie will be the new Batwoman, who has no ties to anyone in the show, but will witness whatever happens to Kate. So this will be a Miles Morales kind of situation, by the sounds of it. However we were told Kate won’t be killed of. Instead the Bat-Eating Monster that ate Batman will get her. Well kind of, she will disappear like Batman before her.

Ryan Wilder will have ties to Scarecrow though. If that means that somewhere along the line he will replace Alice as the main villain of the show is unknown. Safiyah is going to show up though, and will be played by Shivaani Ghai. She will face of with Alice, which seems to be one of the few preplanned elements, that will make their way into Season 2 after all. A female assassin named The Whisper will work for her, and a guy called Ocean will show up.

Pictures of the new Bat Suit have been released online. The most important part about the new look seemd to be the fact that you can tell that it’s an Afro American Woman by the silhouette. Juding by this the main focus of the show will shift. Discussions about DADT and Coming Outs are in the past, BLM it is instead. Ryan Wilder is supposed to be lesbian though. And a (former?) drug addict and goofy and „not the right person“ for the job of Batwoman at „this time“ of her life.

Given that there is a „Kate has disappeared“- storyline – either offscreen or via body double – it would make sense to have the character return to the show at some point in the future. However don’t expect that to happen in Season 2. As long as the two week quarantine period for people coming into Canada is in place guest stars won’t come cheap and might prefer to work in the US instead.

Also don’t expect to get Kate Kane back as a main character any time ever for that show. If she returns it will only be to wrap up her storyline and to give the new Batwoman her blessing.

Season 2 is currently filming in Vancouver. „Batwoman“ was one of the first shows to return to filming and has had a small filming break forced on them already, due to testing issues. However those seem to have been resolved. The production has been running smoothly for the most part.

Expect a proper trailer around December time and expect Season 2 to be treated like a new show by the network. Because that’s bascially what it is. (International distrubiton deals will however remain the same, so don’t worry about that, wherever you saw Season 1, it’s likely you will be able to watch Season 2 there too).

Black Lightning (+ Painkiller)

Season 4 will start airing on the 8th of Febuary and take the Monday night 9:00 pm slot. The season will consist of 13 episodes, and consdering that it’s the shows final season all of these episodes will be made and aired, come hell or high water.

We don’t know a whole lot about this season. Chantal Thuy will be part of the main cast in this season, so hopefully that means that Grace will consistently hang around all season and won’t do her usual disappearing act inbetween episodes.

What we do know is, that around the middle of the season a backdoor pilot for a potential Painkiller Spin-Off will air as episode 4.7. In it Khalil will end up in an new city Askahic Valley, where he will aim for a fresh start and find trouble instead. Helping those in need he will have to find a way to use his inner darkness aka his Painkiller personality for good.

The backdoor pilot sounds engaging, kind of like a more down played version of „Legion“, but as for the chances for it to get picked up, we will have to wait and see. Being more of a follow up for „Black Lightning“ then a spin off the chances for a pick up are much better than most of us thought, when we still believed it to be a sister show to the adventures of the Pierce-Family. However it may be too high concept to find an audience. Furthermore the reboot of „Batwoman“ (see above) may also be enough for The CWs need to live up ist own diversity statement. So we will have to wait how the backdoor pilot works out for an audience and for the network, and also how the future plans for the Arrowverse in particular and their whole program in general for the 2021/2022 season will look like. Diversity also means not too many of those superheroes shows at the same time.

As for why it was decided that the series has to end with Season 4, this is currently still unknown. The ratings were always the poorest out of all the Arrowverseshows and also among the lowest of the whole program of the network, and Netflixs decision to go from weekly episodes to whole seasons also indicated that outside the UK and Australia the show did not do overly well, however the reason behind the decision might have nothing to do with any of that given that the show was rather consitent where the numbers where concerned. It might have been a creative decision, the fall out from the desire of on of the main actors to leave the show, or even a demand from Warner or AT&T. As of right now, we just don’t know, but the truth will come out eventually.

For International Netflix the season will likely be put on after it finishes airing in the US, just like Season 3 was. The Series Finale will probably air in May.

Season 4 is currently shooting in Atlanta. Due to this crossovers with the other shows are more or less out of the question for this season, however in theory characters from „Arrow“ could show up in the final season. But given that „Black Lightning“ always was its own thing, I would not count on it. However after the show is finished, Black Lighting, Thunder, and Lightning could show up from time to time in the Vancouver based shows, if the actors are willing (and in „Painkiller“ of course), so maybe „Black Lightning“ will be fully integrated in the Arrowverse after it’s finished in the same way „Constantine“ was.

The Flash:

Season 7 of „The Flash“ will start airing on the 23 of Febuary on Tuesday night right before „Superman & Lois“. It’s planned to have 18 episodes in total. One of those is 6x20 („All’s Wells That Ends Wells“) which was already more or less finished, when the production shut down. Most of the episode will now be 7x01, however there might have been some reshoots concerning the scenes Hartley Sawyer was in (more on that later). 17 additional episodes are being filmed, provided there isn’t another production shutdown.

The first three episodes of the season will be the slighty rewritten finale of Season 6 and deal with the Mirror Mistress. The rest of seasons will consists of two volumes again, shorter ones than usual though. As of now there are no plans for a crossover episode. Barry will however almost certainly show up in the „Batwoman“/“Superman & Lois“ Crossover Event.

Godspeed will be the main villain of at least the first half of the season. However it won’t be August Heart, it will be a new Godspeed instead. Also set to return are Top, Bloodwork, and Abra Kadabra.

Kayla Compton and Brandon McKnight will be part of Season 7s Main Cast. Hartley Sawyer however is off the show. After his Twitter was scammed, old tweets from long before he even joined „The Flash“ resurfaced, that included offensive jokes. One or two were racist, so he was fired. Ralph will be written out of the show in the first few episodes of the Season. He will shapeshift into another established character for storyline reasons and take his leave in this form. He might return later down the line, when the waves of his departure have subsided. In which form and played by which actor depends on how everything goes until then. Sue Dearborns storyline will be rapped up accordingly, however she is not of the show. She will return over the course of this Season and help out Team Flash time and time again.

There has been a lot of speculation about other actors leaving the show, given that their initial contracts are up and they cost a lot of money or might want to leave. Jesse L. Martin, Tom Cavanagh, und Carlos Valdes are the main concern here. However given that Season 6 was never finsihed, everyone from the main cast (including for story reasons of course Victoria Park and probably Patrick Sabongui) except Hartley Sawyer is returning for Season 7. If there are plans to kill anyone of in a shocking fashion in Episode 3, they obviously wouldn’t tell us. So it is of course possible that someone will leave the show during Season 7, however even if there were plans in place, Covid might have changed them. As for Jesse L. Martin, he might be safe, because we were told that a Joe West related storyline about the Police Issue will be part of this season (however that could of course happen during the first three episodes as well). Danielle Panabaker however will be back sooner than expected, and Frost will be part of the Mirror Mistress wrap up episodes. Given that the show started filming much later than usual, her maternity leave for which she departed the show in 6x19 was over before the returned to filming.

That said what might happen this season is something most people probably noticed during Seaon 6 already: Not everyone will be in every episode, and some might only have cameo appearances in certain episodes. Also US based guest stars might be a problem as long as the 2 week Quarantine for travelers to Canada is still in place. Don’t expect people to show up for only one scene or something like that.

As far as the Mirrorverse storyline goes, Iris will escape from there pretty early on in this season, however there will be lasting effects for her character (as you might have guessed from the last few episodes of Season 6). She will be confronted by a splintered part of her persona and might make a visit to the Eva McCullloch crazy town. If she will have Mirror Powers like Eva after she is out of the Mirrorverse is still unknown but possible, at least until the Mirror Mistress/Mirrorverse storyline is wrapped up.

The Volume after that will deal with Speedster and revolve around the new Godspeed. Originally Season 6 was supposed to end with a cliffhangar involving Eobard Thawne. If this is still the case for 7x03 is unknown. However it stands to reason that Reverse Flash could very well show up during the Speedster Volume. Wally West might also make his return. Und maybe a certain female West-Allen Child will as well. Jesse Wells could also show up at some point. The Wells-Situation will play into Season 7, so she might be connected to this storyline or the Speedster One or both.

What about the future though? There were plans to bring „Stargirl“ into the Arrowverse via „The Flash“. However „Stargirl“ is filming in the US, which means that these plans were postponed for the moment. We will see a Crossover between these two shows eventually (or if „The Flash“ ends before than between „Superman & Lois“ and „Stargirl“). However not until travelling between the US and Canda is easier again.

As for potential future seasons, we still don’t know whatever came of Grants talks about Season 8 and 9. It’s extremly unlikely (but not impossible) that Season 7 is the final Season for „The Flash“, however don’t take Eric Wallaces talks about „many seasons down the line“ for granted. Season 8 might be the last one, or the first of many more to come. We just don’t know at this point.

Season 7 is currently filming in Vancouver. They were forced to start a few days later than originally planned because of issues with testing results (those were delayed), however since they started the prodcution has been running smoothly, so fingers crossed that we will get all of those 18 episodes.

Superman & Lois:

„Superman & Lois“ will start airing on the 23 of Febuary on Tuesday nights right after „The Flash“. 13 episodes were ordered. It’s the big new show of The CW, but it did start filming relativly late, which is why they postponed the start date for the show from January to February. The pilot was supposed to shoot in spring, but couldn’t because of the production shutdown in Vancouver. Therefore they have just done the pilot and went directly on to Episode 2. Normally an episode order of a show like this one would be extended to 16, 20, or even 22 episodes pretty early on. This year however everything is different, and I personally don’t even think that they will extend to 16 episodes (there are clues that point into that direction), so it’s likely that we will get only 13 episodes in this first season. However if the extend the order, we might get 14 or 15 episodes instead.

One of those first 13 episodes will be the crossover episode with „Batwoman“. Characters from the other Arrowverse Shows will show up in it aswell, however it will be a much smaller Crossover than the latest ones. The Flash will probably be in it, as well as someone from „Supergirl“, and maybe someone from „Legends“. There is talk about John Diggle and a Green Lantern storyline, but none of this has been confirmed. However due to the fact that John und Lyla moved to Metropolis, „Superman & Lois“ is the most likely place for him to show up again.

Yes, the pilot script has been leaked, but please keep in mind, that they had months to change it. While the main points of the scripts probably remain the same, don’t expect everything you read to actually happen in the pilot.

That said, here is a summary of the shows synopsis: Clark und Lois have to learn to balanace their lifes as world famour reporters and superheroes with their lifes as parents. On Earth Prime they don’t have an infant son, but two teeange sons instead, that may or may not have inheretied their fathers powers. The Pilot sees them returning to Smallville out of family reasons and reconnecting with Lana Lang (Clarks first love) and her family (her Husband and her teenage daughter). While Lois father General Lane (recast for the show) expects his son in law to focus on the superbusiness, the couple would preferable focus on Smallville, which is in real estate troubles, but even the idyllic small town is all but this when a mysterouis stranger turns up and … well turns the show into a Superhero Show.

Tyler Hoechlin and Bitsie Tulloch return to their roles als Clark Kent and Lois Lane. Superman gets a new suit for the show. Pictures have leaked, but are of bad quality, however the main point of the suit change is to have him wear an endurable suit. His original suit was not made for long term use and was more or less falling apart by the time of „Crisis“.

Their sons are played by Jordan Elsass (Jonathan) and Alexander Garfin (Jordan). They are both thirteen, so apparanly twins, and don’t know that their father is Superman. Jonathan is good in sports but kind and well liked. Jordan on the other hand is smart, but a loner with an anxiety disorder. The new Sam Lane will be Dylan Walsh, Earth Prime hasn’t changed his attitude much, however he might be on better terms with Clark, whom he knows to be Superman. Emanuelle Chriqui is this shows Lana Lang-Cushing, she works at a bank and is in a difficult period of her life. Her husband Kyle Cushing is played by Erik Valdez and chief of the towns firedepartement. He is a drunk and a smalltown guy at heart. Their daughter Sarah Cushing is played by Inde Navarette, she is fourteen, tried to take her own life some time ago, and befriends the Kent boys. Wolé Parks downgraded from the devil to The Stranger, who … well !spoilers! is said to be a Luthor from another dimension, stranded on Earth Prime. He is the main villain of the season and wants to prove that the world that it does not need Superman anymore. Presumable with violence.

If this is true, the events of „Crisis on Infinite Earths“ will play a rather massive part in „Superman & Lois“. Another massive part is tragedy it seems. Something happend to Martha Kent that bringts Clark back to Smallville, and something did happen to the Cushing Family (it might have something to do with their younger daugther Sophie). Also Clark has lost his job at the Daily Planet. So this is quite a dark set up for this new show, which will mainly take place in Smallville, while Metropolis will take the backseat, but will factor into the show. Perry White is set to appear. So is Morgan Edge, who is the one who fired Clark, because after not getting CatCo he appearanty bought the Planet. And is not in jail, but buying real estate in Smallville as well. Sadly he is another character they are recasting for the show. He is probably supposed to be the Earth Prime Version of the character we know, but maybe not. Nevertheless he is is the other main villain of the Season. (The Stranger might be Clarks villain, while he is Lois‘).

As for other news, yes a writer was let go from the show and then complained on Twitter about it, making it into a toxic workplace thing, but the main thing I took from that is the „no extension for this seaons episode count“-clue. Everything else is none of our concern. Of course she would say her writing is good. Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t. She was probably let go, because there were too many writers on the show, and for none other reason. If however there was something untoward going on, Warner and The CW would know (at least by now) and do something about it, they have a history of doing exactly that, e. g. Andrew Kreisberg. That does not mean that all the other scripts are bad, it only means that she was frustrated because she was sacked and felt it happened because she pushed certain points in the writers‘ room, that were incooperated into the scripts long before she was sacked. She might not haven been the only writer pushing for those points, others might have put them into their scripts without discussing it in the room beforehand, we only know her side of everything. So just wait and see.

As for: Will Kara turn up in the Pilot? Normally she would. It’s a Spin Off from „Supergirl“ after all. If the pilot would have been shot in spring, Melissa surely would have turned up in it. However given that she allegedly won’t go back to shooting until next year, she might not. They could film a short scene with her and insert it into the Pilot before it airs, as soon as she is back to Vancouver. But given that she will have to catch up with her own show, maybe this won’t happen. Maybe it was never even planned, because they did not feel the need for it. Everyone knows who Superman and Lois Lane are. Even people who never touched a comic book in their life. Maybe they thinkt that showing Kara would ty the new show too much to the established Arrowverse and „Supergirl“ in particular. However it would be a major disappointment, if she does not show up at all in this show. But sady given the shooting reality of this season it’s a high possibilty that she won’t. Let’s just hope that she in it in some shape or form. Maybe even in the crossover.

Anyway, Season 1 of „Superman & Lois“ is currently shooting in Vancouver. They had to postpone the start of the shoot several times, but they are up an running now, and should be able to complete the 13 planned episodes, if there isn’t a major production shutdown coming their way again.

Legends of Tomorrow

Season 6 of „Legends of Tomorrow“ will air in 2021, starting with „Ground Control to Sara Lance“ around June, maybe May, if we’re lukcy. Season 6 will consist of 13 episodes and will be pretty complex, but if any show can pull of the concept behind the Season in times like this it’s „Legends“.

Shayan Sobhian and Adam Tsekhman will be part of the Main Cast in Season 6. The Waverider will also gain a new crewmember in the form of Esperanza „Spooner“ Cruz, who will be played by Lisseth Chavez. Oliva Swanns Astra will return to the show as well. Newbie Spooner will be tough and self sufficent and won’t play well with the others in the beginning. Definitifly not a warm presence in the beginning, she believes that she was abducted by aliens as a kid and has gained the ability to telepathically communicate with them since then. That will make her the key to find the Waveriders abduted Captain Sara Lance, provided she is not only a paranoid crazy lunatic and actually can do all of this.

The show has also cast Raffi Barsoumian as a new character named Bishop, who is a genuis, but also very dangerous and might actually be the big bad of the season. Structurally the Legends will encounter a new aliens species every week. The idea of using the Waverider as an actual space ship has been around in since Season 1, and now comes to fruition. If one of these aliens species they encounter will be a certain Hawk-related one remains to be seen. It would make sense, however I am not so sure the writers would want to hawk back (sorry) to Season 1 at this point.

Sara will be on her own journey for a while in this season. She won’t be immedeatly rescued in Episode 1. Meanwhile Ava will have a hard time coping with the loss of her Co-Captain and unravel. Maybe Nate will try to lend her a hand, but at the beginning of the season the Legends will very much be dysfunctional without their Time Mom.

Astra will try her hand at a human life and life with John in his house, while Zari und Behrad will be the shows version of the Wonder Twins, sharing the Totem, and learning how to be a team. Essential to this will be Episode 2 of this Season („Meat: The Legends“), which will also explore what is was like for Behrad to grow up in his child star sisters shadow.

There have been contradicting claims about how exactly the aliens will be introduced in the shows. The initial claim made by the writers was that the Legend would visist a different alien planet every week. However later the claim surfaced that different alien races would pop up in Earths History in different time periodes every week. The first claim would make every kind of crossover with the rest of the Arrowverse really difficult, however when „Legends“ is going back on air, this seasons crossover will most likely be over already, and furthermore the character who would have made the most sense in it – Sara Lance – wouldn’t be able to be in it anyways, given the Season 5 Cliffhangar Ending. Still a Legend could show up in the Crossover, maybe John Constantine or Mick Rory or even Nate Heywood. On the other hand, Gary war in „Elseworlds“, so mabye Spooner will just run around in „Superman & Lois“ in the backround while chasing aliens, one never knows with „Legends“.

This is pretty much most of what we know at this point about Season 6. So I guess, I have to adress some of the obvious concerns around this season right now. Number One would be if Season 6 is the last season. With both „Supergirl“ and „Black Lightning“ ending this season, it would be very stupid of The CW to end „Legends“ as well, especially given that „Arrow“, „Supernatural“ and „The 100“ also just ended in 2020. However the ratings were never the greatest, and the show is the most expensive and most complicated out of the Arrowvers Shows. But it also got pretty good press in the last couple of years. So maybe there will be a Season 7. The producers obviously bought themselves Season 6 by trading in Brandon Routh. They might do something simelar this season. Given that Caity Lotz is the face of the show, the most likely and most expensive candidate to get kicked out it Dominic Purcell. So will Rory leave in the middle of Season 6? Maybe. The problem here is that his most logical reason for him leaving is currently shooting Season 3 of „Lost in Space“. However she is doing it in Canada, and I have no idea what the shooting schedule for „Lost in Space“ looks like, so they could bring Lita back in to write Mick Rory out with her. However, they would not do this, if they knew beforehand that there is no Season 7 (because why waste an fan favourite character for nothing?). Dominic also already had reduced Screentime in Season 5 and might want to leave after Season 5 anyway. So we will have to wait and see.

The other concern revolves around John Constantine. Warner is trying to re-establish the character in it’s DC Movies or at least it seems like that. Right now we are in a phase were pretty much all DC Characters can be used at the same time in different continuities, however that could change any moment. Obviously they wouldn’t cancel „Superman & Lois“ once it’s on air because of this, but they could force the producers to write John Constantine out of the Arrowverse. However, until John is scheduled to appear in a DC movie, at least two more seasons could have gone by, so while it is possible that we will have to bid John goodbye after Season 6, it is also possible that we will have him around in Season 7. If there is a Season 7 that is. We’ll have to wait and see.

I have said multiple times that in theory „Legends of Tomorrow“ could go on forever, if they keep rotating the cast. But The CW is not known for thinking that much outside the box. Every additional season they have been given to their shows with lower ratings, including „Legends“, was already thinking outside the box. No other network would have done this. Plus At&T or Warner or both are pushing HBOmax right now and would prefer new shows that stream there over older shows that stream on Netflix (in the States that is). Therefor „Legends“ will probaly go away rather sooner than later. Sadly.

However, Season 6 is currently filming in Vancouver. You can follow Keto Shimizu on Twitter, if you wanna get updated when they start filming a new episode. The original start date had to be pushed back a couple of days because of testing issues, but those have been resolved, and since then the first round of episodes has been done without a hitch.

Supergirl

Season 6 of Supergirl will air 2021 around June or maybe in late May, if we are lucky. It will be the final season and will consist of 20 episodes. Don’t worry, „Supergirl“ will be 2021s „Supernatural“, those 20 episodes will be made and aired, if it’s humanly possible, they will find a way, no matter what.

„Supergirl“ is my White Whale among the Arrowverse Shows right now, I can literally tell you next to nothing about what is going to happen in this season. I can’t even tell you what is happening behind the scenes. There is next to no confirmed information about the final season out there.

What I can tell you is, that they will pick up where Season 5 left off, that Jon Cryer will be a big part of Season 6, and that Karas and Williams slow burn relationship will continue to … slow burn, I guess. And that’s it. Sorry.

Season 5s Main Cast ist back together, expect for Andrea Brooks, but I can’t even tell you that for sure, because while she has not be confirmed to be in the season yet, nobody said she wouldn’t be in it either.

Yes, the ending leaked, or so some people thought, but this ending has mainly been an educated guess based on fan wishes. It’s plausible but not set in stone.

What I can tell you is: No, „Supergirl“ has not been cancelled. If it had been up to The CW the show would have gotten another Season, at least. „Supergirl“ always did fairly good for the network, better than „Arrow“ actually. What happened is pretty simple, it’s the same thing that happened to „Arrow“. The Leads contract was up, and said person did decide against an extension. There have been rumors about Melissas contract spanning seven seasons, but those have been based on wrong assumptions. The standart contract a lead actor signs when he or she does a pilot contains six seasons. Melissa signed one of those. But as you might remember „Supergirl“ did not start out on The CW, it did start out on CBS and Season 1 was filmed in Los Angeles. After Season 1 swollowed too much money, Warner moved the show to the cheaper network and to Vancouver. At this point the contracts were renegotiated. Calista Flockhart even left the show – which she could without breaching contract, because „Supergirl“ was not any longer the show she signed on for originally.

At this point Melissas contract changed – she has less screen time from Season 2 onwards than she had in Season 1, because she demanded more time to travel home to L.A. at the weekends. However what did not change and would not have changed was the six season thing. It would have been very irregular for her to sign a new six season contract at this point. Or for the network to extent it for a season. Especially for The CW who is actually used to shows with fewer seasons (forget SPN for a moment, that was its own thing). So it was and always has been six seasons.

Now between Season 4 and 5 Melissa and Chris decided they wanted to try for a baby. Which is by the way the real reason Supergirl got a new costume in Season 5. Melissa got pregnant, informed the producers and the network. Plans for Season 5 were shifted from 22 to 20 episodes, and to an early start for the filming of Season 6 with a break in the middle so they could work around Melissas pregnancy. But then Covid hit, the production was shut down amidst the Season Finale, and Season 6 became a problem because it would collide with the leads pregnancy leave. During all of this Melissa was in negotiation for a contract extension. And did not sign it. So the producers and the network decided to end „Supergirl“, because without Kara there would be no point to continue. They ended „Arrow“ when Stephen decided to leave, even though they had enough potential replacements from both genders ligned up. They only possible replacement for Kara was written out of the show with the end of Season 3. So that’s all that is to it.

It was definitly not axed to make place for „Superman & Lois“. „Superman & Lois“ has been in works since around „Elseworlds“, and the dream has always been that those two shows would co-exists. However the fact that „Supergirl“ is ending may have factored into the decescion to pick up „Superman & Lois“, so that the successor show is already in place, when „Supergirl“ ends.

So they are currently filming Season 6 in Vancouver, at least some of them are, because as predicted Melissa is still on Maternity Leave. It’s said (and I can’t confirm that) that she will return to filming in January, because the production will take an extended christmas break. Extended because of the two weeks quarantine period. Everyone who goes to the States to see their family will have to quarantine for two weeks before they can go back to shooting after they return to Canada. So that would mean that they filmed for quite some time without Melissa. If that means that she is only in 10 to 15 episodes of the final season or that her scenes are filmed seperatly and she will get stuck in the faceless suit again or if she is deaged and played by an other actress for a couple of episodes or gets turnes invisible and is there in voice only I don’t know. I only know that they are currently filming without her.

And what about crossovers? Given that it’s the final season, there will be no crossover episodes in Season 6 (however someone from the other shows might show up in a small way). As for the characters crossing over to other shows, I again don’t know. Someone will be in the Two Part Crossover between „Batwoman“ and „Superman & Lois“, probably, however we don’t know if this someone will be Melissas, because the focus will be to produce those 20 final episodes with as much her in it as possible. So maybe J’onn or Alex will be in the crossover instead.

And yes, they were originally meant to start filming in September, but there was a problem with the test results. Now, that problem hit all the other shows as well, „Batwoman“ even had to halt shooting for a few days, while the other shows pushed their start date back until the results were in. The strange thing is, however, that most of the other shows only lost of couple of days, a week tops, „Supergirl“ however started almost two weeks later, then it was originally suppossed to. Now, that would be the „someone was testes positve“ period, but they were allowed to go back to shooting around a week after their original date. But took another week or so to get going. Maybe. They might have started earlier, however all the other shows told us via Social Media when they started shooting (or picked it up again) and „Supergirl“ didn’t do so until about two weeks into October. I have no idea why.

But sadly that’s how the show is communicating with its fans right now: Not at all. I wasn‘t even sure they were really back to filming, when I saw those first very cryptic posts until two days later, when David (bless his heart) tweeted that he was on set and started shooting again. Before that Jon Cryers ring-story (check it out online, if you want to, it’s heartwarming and great) was the only thing somehow related to the shooting of Season 6 anyone could find.

So yeah, they are filming. And plan to do that for nine more months at least. After that, it’s over. Which is sad, but well, it is what it is.

Green Arrow and the Canaries (+ Wonder Girl)

As for the „Arrow“ Spin Off, I wish I had news in any form. The show has not been picked up, but it has not been axed either. At the moment it can go both ways. I always guessed that The CW was considering „Green Arrow and the Canaries“ for the 2021/22 Season and not for the Current Season, and this has turned out to be true, but the backdoor pilot aired in January. And now it’s November! Normally we would have heard something either way by now.

And there are two problems: There is that very important thing I have been going on about in the „Supergirl“ Section quite long about called contracts. There is an expireing date on those things - actors can’t stop making money, just because some executives can’t make up their mind about a pilot. And then there is the bigger threat which is the new „Wonder Girl“ show which is in development for The CW, and which is more likely to be picked up by the network to fill the Female Lead Superheroe Show Hole, that „Supergirl“ is leaving behind than „Green Arrow and the Canaries“. I don’t think the network would pick up both of these shows in the same season (or maybe even at all).

So it does not look good, right now for the show, but as long as there is no word about it not going forward, there is still hope. Also, we may get a new version of it in form of a new project instead, if it does not go into series. You never know.

(Stargirl is not one here because I don’t consider it part of the Arrowverse yet).

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#Blog #Arrowverse #Arrowverse Update #2021 #The CW #The Flash #Legends of Tomorrow #Supergirl #Black Lightning #Batwoman #superman & lois #The Flash Season 7 #Supergirl Season 6 #Legends of Tomorrow Season 6 #Batwoman Season 2 #Black Lightning Season 4 #green arrow and the canaries #Painkiller #Wonder Girl

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fantastic-nonsense · 3 years

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One of these days we’ll get a League of Batgirls book starring Babs, Cass, and Steph with occasional guest appearances by most of the Batfamily/Gothamite ladies and then you'll all see

#dc comics #barbara gordon #cassandra cain #stephanie brown #batfam

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bitimdrake · 4 years

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hi, it’s the void! i’m back. okay, regarding any metas you feel like writing. i wasn’t kidding when i said they all sounded great. i loved the timeline you did for Dick, especially because i haven’t been reading DC that long and it was great to understand how events happened and stuff, and more timelines like that would be amazing, , but i’m actually mad curious about your thoughts on how Dick and Tim are similar? like i've seen a lot about their relationship as brothers which is great but (1/2)

but now that you’ve said it, it kinda makes sense. although the only specific thing i can remember is them both insisting on going to public school. anyway, i'd love to hear your thoughts! (2/2)

I very probably will end up doing more timelines because I had fun! but unless there’s a specific request I might wait until I’m fully done with my pre-flashpoint read through. Onward to your actual question, though!!

tl;dr: Dick and Tim are both true heroes on the side of good, very smart, social and well-liked, team players, highly prone to (often unnecessary) guilt, susceptible to becoming more Batman-like in their worst moments, and able to fight against that with The Power of Friendship (i.e. trusting and relying on others).

but lets start with the reason why Tim and Dick ended up so similar in-universe, which is that out-of-universe they’re the most similar.

They’re the archetypical, “light to Batman’s darkness” type Robins.

[Dick to Alfred, in flashback: “No, it’s not like that, Alfred. I mean, I know the danger, and I really try to careful. But I also know I’m doing good, that I’m helping people. I think in a way I’m helping Bruce, too.” “How is that, sir?” “I used to think he was more real as Batman than as Bruce Wayne...but because he just can’t be some cold super-hero around me, I think Bruce is becoming more real, too. Look I know what we’re doing is important, but it’s not everything. Mom and Dad always taught me to enjoy myself. I think maybe I’m helping Bruce to sometimes enjoy himself, too.” | (Batman #438)]

(p.s. go read batman year 3, ft grieving bruce, bruce & dick & alfred Feelings, young dick grayson flashbacks, and the cameo first appearance of baby tim)

[Tim, to Bruce: “B-Batman, it’s hard for me to say this to you--but since Jason...died, everyone’s notice how you’ve...changed.” / “You need someone to make you slow down just a bit and wonder what could happen. I mean, how many times have you been hurt these past few months?” | (Batman #442)]

They’re the two who had truly long runs as Robin: post-Crisis Jason had about a year and a half, Stephanie a few months. If you include all reboots, Damian has had a decade, but I ignore everything after Flashpoint since the characterizations changed so wildly, and he only had 2 years preboot. Meanwhile, Dick was Robin for over 40 years, and Tim for 20.

They were really the only two preboot that had time to live and grow in the role of Robin. They had time to become staples of the greater universe and connect with many other characters. They had time to become long-lasting members of notable teams.

They both were introduced in the sidekick role, but soon started leading stories as main characters in their own right instead of supporting characters to Batman. Tim got his own Robin series, and then continued into his Red Robin series. Dick was the regular star of stories within batfamily anthology series—though I’m not familiar enough with the golden/silver/bronze ages to cite those off-hand, sorry—and then in the modern age got a Nightwing ongoing until he took over as Batman.

(By contrast, Jason and Damian have only really lifted to starring roles post-Flashpoint, previously having always shared billing as Robin. Post-resurrection, Jason was a sporadic guest character, usually an antagonist. Steph started as an occasional Batman guest star, then become a supporting character to Tim in Robin, and only much later became a main character once she got Batgirl. Cass did get her own Batgirl book right off the bat, but, look, out of universe and narratively Cass is so very different to the boys, and was still always very isolated from the rest of the dcu. Barbara as Oracle is the only one who had the same central status as Dick and Tim, but being neither Bruce’s kid nor a Robin, she has a completely different, far more independent role.)

tl;dr: If you read preboot comics, there really is a distinct way in which Dick and Tim are treated as fundamental main characters in the universe in comparison to all the other batkids.

i can’t believe how long this is already getting so I’ll see you under the cut

[Alfred, to Bruce: “Oh, he was sad, certainly--But also more than that. He’s changed considerably over these past horrible days. When he first came to us, I dared entertain hopes that you might, through proximity, become more like him. Bright and more optimistic. But I’m afraid exactly the opposite has occurred. I’m afraid he’s become more like you.” | (Robin #132)]

(alfred is talking about tim here, but, spoiler, imma argue that this could literally apply just as well to either dick or tim)

Those out-of-universe similarities all come together to mean Dick and Tim had to fill pretty similar roles. Dick was created in a very lighthearted era to appeal to kids and give Batman someone to talk to, and Tim was created very specifically and carefully to Not Be Jason Todd and convince readers that a kid sidekick was still reasonable even after one of them had been killed—but the outcome is the same.

They’re the good kids. The reliable ones. Sure, they sometimes fight with Batman or make the wrong choice or struggle, but those are problems they overcome instead of defining characteristics. They were the ones who could be solidly in the role of the Robin without making readers question if they really should be Robin.

As young characters who led their own stories, writers naturally leaned into making them relatable to kids*. And when they graduated, all that established characterization kept them as The Good Kids into their future identities, even as they matured.

(*I think this is super key in comparison to Damian, who is ofc a very young kid, but who pre-Flashpoint had most of his appearances in series that weren’t necessarily geared towards kids: Batman, Batman & Robin, etc. Ergo he could be violent and bloody and chop off heads, and not have to take have any kid- relatable traits or stories. Compare to Super Sons, which I haven’t read, but from what I understand is very geared towards kids and therefore tries to make Damian more kid-friendly and kid-relatable to match.)

Dick and Tim have pretty much the same skillset all non-meta, Gotham-based vigilantes have. They’re great martial artists, they flips off buildings, they’re very smart and great detectives, etc etc. Fanon tends to exaggerate any difference in skill, but honestly by the time Tim is full-grown there’s not any hugely noted gap between them. Dick is more acrobatic, but they’re both excellent fighters. Tim’s detective skill are more likely to be mentioned, but they both are great problem- and case-solvers—and Dick has solved cold cases while sick at home, or ruined mystery movies with friends by figuring it out two minutes in, etc.

[just for kicks, here’s a horribly cropped side-by-side of Ra’s calling each of them “detective” | (Red Robin #12 / Nightwing #152)]

They’re both also very empathetic and caring. This seems pretty well known for Dick, but sometimes missed for Tim, so I’ll remind here that Tim became Robin exclusively because he wanted to help Bruce and help Gotham. He’s the only bat who became a vigilante without having any preexisting personal tragedy to motivate him, because he just wanted to help that much.

Also well known for Dick but often forgotten for Tim: they’re both social, friendly, well-liked people. Dick, of course, has friends all over the place (though, imo, keeps his closest circle of friends pretty exclusive), and generally has no problems socially.

The same is pretty much true for Tim. He doesn’t have the connections across the superhero community Dick has (tbf Dick’s been around 50 years longer), but he is similarly very comfortable in social situations. He’s a confident kid, particularly once he’s been Robin for awhile. Tim swapped schools approximately 2437 times in the Robin series, and very quickly made friends at all of them:

[Tim, to random jocks: “Excuse me, guys?” “Who’re you?” “I’m Tim Drake. I’m new here and have only one friend so far, so I can’t afford to lose him. The trouble is that he’s madly in love with Darla here and dying to talk to her. Now, as we all know, the official-rules-of-guys dictate that you’d be fully justified in beating the snot out of anyone dumb enough to make a pass at your girl. So here’s the deal. Just this once, I’m willing to take the beating coming to him. I’m not suicidal enough to try fighting back, but I still suggest we go outside so that you’ve got all the room you need to do a proper job of it.” (pause) Random jocks: “Hey, you’re all right, Tim.” “You’re pretty cool. Funny, y’know?” “Besides, she really ain’t our girl. Darla don’t date nobody.” “Come on. You can buy us sodas while your bud takes his shot at her.” “Or a double bacon burger.” | (Robin #122)]

The confidence, lads.

Like I said, they’re the “good kids,” and that applies to both sides of their double lives:

As civilians, they got good grades in school (not that that separates them from the other batkids), they generally followed the most important rules, and were relatively well-behaved kids—if not sometimes considered boring. (It’s important to remember here that, as the guy who was Robin in the 40s, Dick was once the ultimate square. Even though he was Robin until he was 19, it wasn’t until he became Nightwing that he was allowed to do adult things like “be shown in bed with his girlfriend,” and it really wasn’t until the 90s that he started to shift away from being known as the conventional, straight-laced guy.)

Dick is canonically a lightweight because he barely drinks, even though he’s specifically trained to resist other drugs. Tim is regularly teased for being so very virginal. Dick and Tim are probably the people who always appoint themselves designated driver, even when they intend to drink with their friends, and there’s already an assigned DD, and they really were planning to just have fun, they swear, but listen, someone has to look out here and make sure everything is okay and be responsible and, anyway, alcohol is bad for you.

As vigilantes, they stick with the Code and they don’t kill. As far as I can tell, the no killing code has never been shown to be deeply and personally vital to them in the way it is for, e.g., Bruce and Cass. But it is important to them: something they follow stringently, try to get others to follow, and a point of horror when they (perceive themselves to) break it.

Here’s some clips after Tim got dosed with a superspeed drug and accidentally killed Lady Shiva. (“What?? Tim killed Shiva???” Yes, but don’t worry; it will literally never be mentioned again ever.)

[Tim’s narration: “Cleared her airway. No breathing. And no pulse. Okay, so this is weird. I’m trying to bring someone who’s killed so many back to life. So she can live to kill even more.” / “But if I can save one life. Even if it’s Shiva’s. Have to fight down the poison in my blood. I deliver pressure to Shiva’s heart too fast and--and I’ll have killed her twice.” | (Robin #52)]

And here’s Dick after accidentally killing the Joker in a rage:

[Tim, to Dick: “Nightwing?” “What… What have I done?” “Omigod… He’s dead.” “I…I killed him.” | (Joker: Last Laugh #6)]

[Barbara, over video chat: “Even Bruce would admit it. The world would be better off if the Joker were dead. So don’t let this destroy you.” Dick shuts off the connection. | (Nightwing #63)]

(Dick has another sorta-kill in Nightwing #93, where he doesn’t pull the trigger himself but steps aside to let someone else do it, and he has a guilt breakdown from that as well. Even though, again, the person killed was awful, and in that case there weren’t a lot of other options left.)

I probably don’t need to tell you that Lady Shiva and the Joker are horrible people and mass murderers, to the point where resuscitating them (Tim in the first case, Bruce in the second) is arguably the less moral action. But Dick and Tim both have the same reaction of horror at what they’ve done, and refuse to entertain how the world would probably be better off without said villains. Killing is wrong, and that is the only thing either of them allow themselves to think about.

Unlike the other pair of batboys, these two are inarguably, fundamentally heroes and not antiheroes. On the occasion where they’ve tried to be darker (e.g. Dick after that accessory-to-murder thing as “Crutches”/Renegade or Tim early in Red Robin) it pretty much always stems out of feeling awful, and only makes them more miserable and depressed. In both cases, they’re taking on the role as some kind of self-punishment.

[Conner, to Tim: “Wait a second. This is all a punishment, isn’t it?” “What are you talking about?” “Taking on the identity of Red Robin--The “failed” Robin. Isolating yourself. I know what guilt can do to you, Tim.” | (Adventure Comics vol. 2 #2)]

[Dick: “I let him get shot. A bullet was fired and I failed to throw myself in front of it.” // “I’m not undercover with the bad guys--I am the bad guys.” | (Nightwing #112)]

Both of them have a tendency to feel responsible for anything that goes wrong, and especially anyone who dies—whether it’s someone they had a hand in killing, someone they failed to save…

[Tim’s narration: “Dad thinks this is part of the punishment. For me it’s therapy. Just last week I was holding a kid my own age and watching him die. And I couldn’t stop it. Some hero I turned out to be.” | (Robin #47)]

...or just someone they love who got hurt:

[Roy, to Dick, just after Donna’s death: “Stop this. You’re upset, we’re all upset...But this isn’t the time to make decisions.” “When is the time? When we kill more of our friends?” “It wasn’t our fault.” “The hell it wasn’t.” “Dick, don’t act like I don’t care! Don’t pretend that this doesn’t kill me inside. But you can’t tell me that Donna would want--" “I can’t tell you what Donna would want. Nobody can because she’s dead, Roy! What do you want to do? Just strap on our guns and wait for the next thing? Wait for the next madman, or alien, or psychopath to come along so I can shove people I love into harm’s way?! How many should we kill before it seems like a bad idea?!” | (Titans/Young Justice: Graduation Day #3)]

(Donna is a full hero in her own right, who makes her own decisions and definitely wasn’t shoved into anything by Dick, but there’s a guilt complex for you.)

And neither of them deal well with grief. This is more pronounced with Tim, who lost a whole bunch of extremely important people in a very short time, and reacted with things like cloning attempts, Lazarus pits, and world tour wild goose chases, but it’s true for both.

[Soon after Donna’s death, Dick sits silent and alone as his answering machine speaks: “I’m not here. Leave a message after the beep.” Roy, over the phone: “Dick, it’s Roy--pick up the phone...C’mon...Please...I know you’re there...Just pick up. Dick, we need to talk...You can’t just...Please… You can’t just leave me hanging out here. I’d rather we...y’know...try to go through this together...if you’d just let me… Please man… Okay. Fine. I’m here when you’re ready.” | (Teen Titans/Outsiders Secret Files)]

[Soon after his father’s death, Tim curls up in bed as Dick speaks through his answering machine: “Tim, it’s Dick. I know you’re there… C’mon, Tim. Pick up...Pick up… Tim, pick up...Please, kiddo...Pick up… I know you can hear me, Tim…” | (Identity Crisis #7)]

(thank you for setting up this perfect parallel, comics)

So, grief and guilt, the two biggest things that push both boys to their worst. Which brings us to our next point: So You Were A Teenage Vigilante Adopted By An Emotionally Repressed Father Figure And Now You Have Terrible Coping Methods.

When they hit these rough patches and fail to dig themselves out, Dick and Tim react pretty much the same way. They self-isolate, overwork themselves trying to control and fix everything, get overly serious and grim, and fail to take care of themselves, sometimes out a misplaced sense of guilt and sometimes simply because their own wellbeing takes second place to trying to save everyone else.

Or, in other words, at their worst, both Tim and Dick emulate Bruce.

During the (short! it was pretty short!) time Dick was a cop, he overworked to the point where he was doing virtually nothing to take care of himself or hang out with friends, too busy trying to take down the BPD as a cop and save people as a vigilante. After his dad and Stephanie (seemingly) died, Tim outright dropped out of school (under the pretense of being homeschooled by his fake uncle) because he didn’t see a point in devoting his time to anything that wasn’t The Mission anymore.

And even in good times, they each have shades of those traits! They both tend to be the most grim/serious on any team (or out-of-Gotham friend group), and are prone to secrecy and occasionally to trying to control things behind the scenes—all to the point where being teased or accused of being too much like Batman is a common sentiment from their friends.

[Donna, to Dick: “How long, Nightwing--How long have you been conducting secret investigations behind our backs?” “I’m sorry, Donna. But I needed to be sure my suspicions were correct before I--" | (Titans #99)]

[Wally, to Dick: “Okay. I tried. You’re on your own. You want to play the martyr? Go ahead. But I never thought you wind up like Bruce.” “What’s that supposed to--" | (Nightwing #63)]

If I took the time, I bet I could find like a billion examples of the Titans mocking Dick for being too Batman-like, but just take these two more serious examples.

imo, contrary to popular belief, this is actually far less prevalent for Tim, but still definitely gets its moments:

[Kon, to Tim, being retrained by Cassie: “Yeah, I’ll bet! Batman give you some tips for handling us, huh?” (Cassie: “Kon! This isn't the ti--") Tim: “What...is that...supposed to mean?” Kon: “You gonna make me spell it out for you?” Tim: “It think you’re going to have to, yes.” Cassie: “Kon, please, not here, not n--" Kon: “Hey, he wanted to hear it? He’s gonna hear it. So...Do you have files? On us? Or did you think we weren’t gonna hear about it? About how Batman had files on everyone in the JLA--his friends, his teammates--on all their weakness and how to beat them in case one of ‘em went rogue. Well? You’re his protege. You take the lead from him in everything. Have you figured out ways to take down each of us? Are you as paranoid as he is?” | (Young Justice #36)]

(man, remember that time bruce was such an untrusting bastard that he nearly destroyed not one but two different superhero teams? good times)

Whether or not they’re actually up to something shady (and in this case, Kon is wrong as it turns out), Tim and Dick both have that quietly secretive thing learned from Batman. And they both have to deal with being under Batman’s shadow; I mentioned earlier that both have fought with Bruce, and they definitely have, but I can’t think of a time they’ve ever done so publicly.

They both deal with the worry of being seen as purely an extension or lesser copy of Batman, and on a more internal level the worry of becoming like Bruce.

Dick gets more arcs that focus on the former—Possibly because, as the original Robin, this is a big out-of-universe question for his character too. How do you make the character who was Batman’s sidekick for 40 years, who was created long before the idea of sidekicks growing up ever existed, his own man and able to stand out from under the shadow of the Bat? (answer: turns out it’s actually pretty easy if he becomes wildly popular and beloved in his own right)

Tim gets more arcs that focus on the latter—possibly because, as a teenage character who was more or less in a long-form coming of age story during his time as Robin, there was still a sense that who he would become in the future wasn’t set in stone and his personality would continue to shift and grow.

But both of them ultimately want to be their own person, and much as they love him, neither of them want to become like Bruce. Or to make this parallel absolutely explicit:

[Tim’s narration: “Here’s the thing: no one can predict their own future. The best a guy can do is to look to those who’ve been much longer on the same path as him, and see what a life of walking that path has done for them. For me, those people are Bruce and Dick. You see what I’m getting at? Bruce has been on the job the longest. It’s slowly driven him mad and eaten the human part right out of him. But what about Dick? Surely a guy like him can’t dedicate himself to this line of work and keep a level head on his shoulders? I wanna yell “He can!” but I can’t forget the glimpses I’ve seen recently of the same kind of monster eating at Dick, too. Little things that, looking back now, I can remember seeing in Bruce a few years ago. Should I call them “early warning signs”? Do I dare to assume it’s a disease I can’t catch with time?” | (Robin #100)]

On the bright side, Dick and Tim aren’t Bruce. They are, as noted, both far more social people, prone to far more openness. And because becoming like Batman is always narratively portrayed as a Very Bad Thing for them, that means it’s something that they usually get to fight against and overcome to be happy, healthier people.

[Wally, to Dick: “Don’t stand there blinking at me, Grayson. What do you want, a mission statement? Fine. My mission is to keep you from turning into your guardian. Batman may be a loner, but you need a family around you.” “You’d really join another team just so I could have a social life? You’ll never last.” “Ten bucks says I stick it out longer than you do.” | (Titans #1)]

[Tim: “People...You think you know how I feel about Batman? Trust me: right now, you don’t. No, I don’t have files on you. Batman and I are different, believe it or not. I have friends. He has...associates. That’s becoming more and more clear to me… And that’s all I intend to say on the subject.” | (Young Justice #36)]

[Tim: “I realized you were playing with me. But this is me, refusing to play. Did you think I was going to run all around the city, desperately trying to save everyone all by myself? I’m not Batman. I have friends.” | (Red Robin #12)]

(i can’t believe bruce is never around to hear tim roast him like this rip)

So Dick and Tim specifically fight against those Batman-esque impulses by having close friends who they truly love, trust, and can rely on as a support system.

I can throw out lots of other little similarities between them if you like: both preferred public school as you mentioned, both orphans, both traumatized after witnessing their parent(s) death.

They both started with a complicated and not necessarily parent/child relationship with Bruce (Dick and Bruce initially having been just as likely to be referred to as brothers; Tim initially having his own living father and a relatively professional relationship with Bruce), and explicitly said Bruce wasn’t their father. They both eventually shifted in their feelings and later considered Bruce their dad.

They both still love and care deeply about their original fathers, and rarely actually refer to Bruce as “dad”. They both lived with Bruce long before being officially adopted (Dick as his “ward” and only adopted as an adult; Tim living with him temporarily while his parents were away or comatose and adopted after his original dad died).

They both were unwillingly stopped from being Robin once temporarily (Dick fired in Robin: Year One; Tim forced to quit by his dad) before later returning to the role. They were both later permanently fired from the role by the current Batman, and extremely upset about being replaced. They both are consistent and reliable parts of the bat-team, except for a single period after they were fired and spent time away (Dick with the Titans in NYC; Tim around the world looking for evidence Bruce was alive).

…and so on and so forth.

(The fanon note to end this post is that they each have a tendency to get wildly exaggerated by fans to the point of getting flaws they never had in canon—but in completely opposite directions: Dick gets flanderized into a perpetually cheerful, ever caring, lynchpin of the family; often with the entirely non-canon flaws of being stupid, oblivious, and/or overbearing; often without his more serious, workaholic, clever, or occasionally manipulative side. Tim gets flanderized into a perpetually depressed, genius-level IQ, uber-workaholic control-freak; often with the entirely non-canon flaws of being socially anxious, paranoid and untrusting, and/or entirely unwilling to take care of himself at a basic level; often without his more social, trusting, goofy, or occasionally cocky side.)

In conclusion, Dick and Tim definitely have differences and qualities unique to each of them, but they’re more similar than they are different and also I can’t believe I am writing long analyses of fictional media on tumblr dot com but it turns out i miss writing essays and have lots of Thoughts.

thank you for asking, the void.

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amtoooldforthisshit · 4 years

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It’s funny how people are always like ”Dick shouldn’t be with babs cuz she holds him back/ties him down to the batfamily”.

When it was actually thanks to his connection to babs that he got to guest star in the bop series, become one of the team’s main allies and befriend dinah and the other girls in the first place.

she doesn’t hold him back, how could she when she herself is not limited to the batfam?! Instead she opens up new avenues for him, offers him new connections and complements him.

#dickbabs #barbara gordon #dick grayson #batgirl #oracle #nightwing #batfam #batfamily #Birds of Prey

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ao3feed-brucewayne · 1 month

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Reverse Stalking Syndrome

by LialeeEderian [Working Title: Reverse-Stalking - Or, How Creeping Through The Shadows Ended Up Being Way Too Popular] but then I realized it wasn't strictly true. :) In which Tim Drake returns to Gotham and finds himself a suspicious Wayne Family who seem a tad obsessed. Well, it's not like Tim didn't intend to not interfere anyway, so all the better for him. Words: 1693, Chapters: 1/10, Language: English Series: Part 5 of Otherworlds - A Tim Drake Special Fandoms: Batman - All Media Types, DCU Rating: Teen And Up Audiences Warnings: Creator Chose Not To Use Archive Warnings Categories: Gen Characters: Tim Drake, Bruce Wayne, Dick Grayson, Alfred Pennyworth, Damian Wayne, Jason Todd Relationships: Tim Drake & Dick Grayson & Jason Todd & Bruce Wayne & Damian Wayne Additional Tags: Tim Drake is Not a Batfamily Member, Good Parents Jack Drake and Janet Drake, mostly - Freeform, Tim Drake-centric, Tim Drake is Not Robin, Photographer Tim Drake, Hijinks & Shenanigans, Tim Drake is a Menace, Tim Drake's Hero Worship, Where everything is the same but not, Tim Drake Has a Good Time, Not a Crossover, But there are Guest Stars, OOC-ness, Madlad Tim Drake, Light-Hearted via https://ift.tt/0xF2OqM

#IFTTT #bruce wayne #batman #the dark knight #the caped crusader #gotham #dcu #dc #ao3 #ao3feed

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duketectivecomics · 4 years

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You might've answered this already and I just didn't find it, but one thing that always perplexed me about Duke was how old he was in comparison to the other Batkids. It's obvious he's younger than Dick and Babs, and I pretty sure he's younger than Jason and Cass, and older than Damian, but I cannot tell if he's meant to be Tim and Steph's ages, younger, or older. Could you help me?

You’re all kinds of good here, anon!!! I answered a similar ask abt the Order of Adoption but didn’t dive into specific ages on that post BECAUSE well they didn’t ask lmaooo but ALSO:

Comic ages are very fluid usually! While Years™️ might pass in the canon proper, or while time seems to slow to a crawl, having a character’s age outright stated is something that occurs very rarely for most characters, if at all!

Because it’s always much easier to have a floating age range to work and play around in! It’s easier to keep a character Perpetually 12 or 16 or 25 or mid-40s or- you get the idea. SO, with that in mind. Let’s do our Best to Break Down What Age Duke Might Be Currently A N D how it might interact with the Other Batkids!

(Warning for a Very Long Post, lots of issue citations, and a LOT of comics terminology regarding specific runs/events/continunity. I’m gonna try to keep it as clear/concise as possible ofc but plz keep these things in mind! If you’re not at least marginally familiar with Bat-Comics, you might find yourself feeling a little lost here!)

So from the Zero Year arc we see a common Trend that plays out pretty consistently with Batfam comics: a Life-Changing Event Occuring while the protag is Young™️.

(Batman (2011) #30)

With how Duke is drawn in these particular issues, and given the trends of the past, I’d place him in the 8-12 range. The historic precedent being ofc that that is the same range that canon usually places both Bruce and Dick at for their Tragedies™; the more benign reason being that he... just very much Looks to be drawn in that Range. He’s very clearly an Older/Prepubescent child here.

Fast Forward to his Next Appearance in the Endgame arc and-

(Batman (2011) #37)

He’s definitely older! He’s wiser! And he’s giving Batman a fistbump lmao. Again, no strict age given here BUT, since they condensed each Robin to a Year or Two tops with Bruce (its n52 and its fucked up is what it is), we can assume it’s been at least 4-5 since Zero Year (which would mean if we go off the age range I proposed for that year, then theoretically he could be anywhere from 12-16 here, and I think that tracks pretty well. Not Perfectly and Certainly Not so well with Pre52 continuity ofc, but I’ll talk about that later!)

In We Are Robin, while its not stated Directly In The Text, it IS given as an Informational Tidbit that Duke is 16 (specifically this can be found at the end of issue #4)! (Sweet sweet canon confirmation FINALLY)

We know that WAR takes place Fairly Soon after Endgame (almost immediately, give or take a month or two given that Duke’s been placed in a few foster homes at this point and has racked up Quite A File) now, again id like to remind y’all that while this is a NICE starting point to have, keep in mind that comics are fluid and this may be retconned slightly/ignored in later stories bc Keeping Duke 16-ish is in DC’s Best Interest at the moment. (Having Relatable Teen Characters afterall is a Good Marketing strategy™️. And the longer they can Keep them Young, the Better)

With that in mind let’s take a moment to Highlight the fact that Duke and Damian have crossed paths at this point AND the storylines that have occurred during this year that were meant to be in conjunction with one another!

Because Prior to Endgame, Damian had Died! And just a year (in real, meat-space time) before We Are Robin, he was resurrected and had begun his “Year of Atonement” in the Robin: Son of Batman maxiseries. Midway through both this series and WAR (and, we can assume, midway thru this “Year” for Damian) the Robin War begins/ends and we see at least one major Moment between these two boys who will soon call one another brothers:

(Robin War #2)

Given that R:SoB is followed up VERY quickly by Teen Titans Rebirth (in which Damian celebrates his 13th birthday), we can conclude that Damian would be 12 during this time (well, 12 and 1/2 to play it safe lmao). That being said, this Confirms about a 4yr gap between Duke and Damian! (One Batkid down at least! but he’s the key to the others so put a pin in him!)

As We Are Robin draws to its conclusion, DC was releasing another arc that would eventually flow into the Rebirth Era, by the end of which, Bruce would approach Duke with an Idea (which involves Bruce becoming Dukes temporary guardian & as he states Many Times “Trying Something New” with Duke).

And thus the Rebirth Era begins, and Duke began his Year of training (most directly encapsulated by the Cursed Wheel arc in the All-Star Batman run:

(All-Star Batman #1 (back-up story))

Bruce introduces Duke to a training regimen that Alfred has named “the Cursed Wheel”. It encompasses all the training Bruce and the other bats have undergone and condenses it down into color-coordinated segments that will take Duke a Year to Complete.

It can be assumed that by the End of this Year Duke will somehow miraculously still be 16, despite, again, an entire ass year passing.

There’s one story that takes place mid-year in All-Star Batman, and the Cursed Wheel is meant to be capped off by Duke’s first Official Day as the Signal (in the titular Batman & the Signal ofc) BUT, near as I can tell after this story, Dukes age is not brought up again. So until they DO bring it up either in Batman & the Outsiders or whatever future run Duke becomes involved in, we can assume DC will be working with the idea that he’s meant to be in that 16-18 range from here on out (ie still a minor).

But, dear anon, you might be saying “okay, that’s cool, but how does that relate to my question abt how he falls in with the other Bats?” You’ll have to be a little patient with me here, but I think I may have cracked the code!

Keep in mind I’m gonna be addressing both the Post-Crisis to Flashpoint Continuity (ie mid-80s to 2010 in comics history) and the N52-slash-Rebirth Era (2010-Today). Its generally agreed by fandom and DC alike that these points of rebooting &/or Major Events constitute the era of “Modern” comics, and that everything from the 80s-on might more or less be canon on some level, even if not All of it is.

(Plus, most of fandom usually likes to borrow elements from both eras and much more rarely from stories before it, SO-)

Lets do a quick rundown of how everyone who’s Closer to Duke’s Age, Relates to each other first, age-wise:

Given that Jason was 15 when he died, in A Lonely Place of Dying its established that Bruce had become increasingly reckless since his death, and by the end of the story, Tim has stepped in to fill Robin’s shoes (he states that he’s 13 during this story btw). Pretty soon after, Stephanie Brown is introduced & established to be about a year older than Tim (wish I could pin-point a specific issue BUT, i unfortunately haven’t read any Tim OR Steph-involved comics that predate No Man’s Land... Besides the aforementioned Lonely Place and Young Justice technically, but im working on remedying that soon!)

NOW, during the No Man’s Land event, Cassandra is introduced, and pretty soon into her Batgirl run, its revealed that she’s around the same age as Jason (or at least how old he Would Have Been, had he not died.) Now, given that Jay has an August bday and Cass has a January one, fandom sometimes likes to play around with the idea of one being older than the other (OR even speculating/placing them in an AU as twins/siblings, given that Lady Shiva (Cass’ mom) was a Possible Candidate to be Jason’s biological mother but that’s a Whole Other Thing i wont get into here.)

The point being, Cass, in this era of comics, IS slightly older than Tim and Steph. At Tim’s start as Robin, their ages could either line up like: Tim-13, Steph-14, Cass-15 (being a few months ‘behind’ Jay), then Jason at 15/16 (depending on how soon Tim filled the role after Jay died in April) OR Jason-15/16, Cass-16/17 (in this case she’d be a few months ‘ahead’ now instead)

So brief detour to talk New 52, however! Because Tim, Steph & Cass all got switched around from where DC originally left them prior to the reboot! Now I haven’t read much of them in this era, other than Batman & Robin: Eternal, so my Understanding of their current ages is Spotty at Best. The general consensus seems to be that while before N52, Stephanie had been attending her first year of College (& doing VERY WELL i might add), with the reboot she was set back a few years alongside Tim to a vague Late-Teen state (so 16-18-ish, instead of a Very Clearly Established 18/19). Cass is probably the worst off for this reboot, given that B&R:E basically constitutes her new origin for the new continuity, and does nothing to confirm her age (all I really know is that she’s a Vague Late-Teen too... Probably? Maybe?), given how much they infantilize her, and subsequently how fandom in turn has taken to infantilizing her too, theres a semi-popular fanon that places her Younger that Tim and Steph. And I, for one, propose that we ignore that bc its Weak Sauce my dudes.

Some fans chose to ignore N52 continuity due to this vagueness, and will stick to the ages established before the N52/Rebirth reboots. But its something to keep in mind regardless bc we’re all obviously going to pull from what’s most familiar to us!

But WHERE could we place Duke with regards to them, then? Because them being “Late Teens” is certainly much too vague to work with!

This is Where Damian is the key!

Because Damian is one of those rare exceptions to the Reboot Rule. His story flowed almost seamlessly over from before to after. While he was made a Robin at the age of 10, he continued to grow and learn even after the universe was being rewritten to suit the whims of DC editorial.

If we choose to ignore how everyone else’s ages and origins were swapped around, and stick with the growth that was presented before the reboot, then we can draw some interesting conclusions!

Firstly, though Stephanie also had Died and subsequently Returned, she hadn’t lost much, if any time, from the Ordeal. At the start of her Batgirl run, she is enrolled at a Gotham university and making headway with a more firm foot in the Batfamily (even to the point that she and Damian spend a few issues bonding. At this point in time, Damian is definitely 11, and again, Steph can be assumed to be 18/19 during the course of her run. We’ll assume 18 for clarity’s sake.)

So, then when Damian is 11, now our line up is as Follows:

Dami - 11, Steph - 18, Tim - 17, Cass 19-21 (the range depending again, if you subscribe to Cass being either older/younger than Jason).

WHICH MEANS, If during Robin War Damian is 12 (and a half) THEN We’ve got an age line-up that Potentially looks Like This:

Dami -12(and 1/2), Duke - 16, Tim - 18, Steph - 19, Cass - 20-22 (And Obvsly Jason, Babs & Dick at their varying Older Ages than everyone here)

and im just now realizing i Didnt include Harper in this line-up, but thats bc she’d also throw a big wrench in all this. I’d personally throw her in with being Steph’s age, but I’m pretty sure she was supposed to be either that, or between Steph and Cass (again, since its N52, i believe Cass was/is assumed to be Younger than Steph, but that contradicts the assumed following of pre52 canon that we have for the above line-up, obvsly, and so we ignore that lmao)

All this to say, however, that canon and fandom is what you make of it, and if you want to wiggle these ages around a little, you’re more than allowed! God Knows i usually like to skew the Tim-Steph-Cass age group to be a tad older than this in my own fic writing, and I like to have Duke start as a Robin at 14/15 instead of 16, but that’s just bc I like the dynamic potential it could bring with them being Definitively Older that him, and thus in a more secure place to be Mentoring him right alongside Bruce & the others.

But you might see these age ranges and want to do something Different (say, making Tim, Steph, Cass, & Duke all the Same Age at 17 instead! And that very well tracks with how current comics kinda looks right now!) and you’re absolutely valid to do so! Because again, comic character’s ages are meant to be fluid, not fixed!

And at the end of the day, its all about wanting to see these teen heroes kick serious ass haha

#duke thomas #guest starring:#batfamily #damian wayne #tim drake #stephanie brown #cassandra cain #randywrites #randys meta #meta #asked and answered #anonymous asks #this was A LOT and i tried to throw some humor where i could #but uhhhh yeah!!! i hope this helps anon!!!#also just realizing its TWO AM WHERE DID THE TIME GO #ah well. Worth It

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