#cassandra cain meta

[mahoushojounightmares]

There is something so fucking heartbreaking about Cass in Batgirl (2000) and i think its the way that she can forgive murderers and killers she can and will attempt to save a man from death row just because she believes they could of changed . She values human life to an absurd degree and in her perception every person matters and deserves to live . Every person except Herself .

She has a death wish constantly puts herself in danger risks her life fighting Shiva and very explicitly in the text wants to die and for what . . Because she killed a man at age 8 . After being horrendously abused and trained for murder by her father.Cass who loves and cherishes absolutely every one no matter what .Cass who saves Lady Shiva - Who has killed hundreds. She won’t kill Lady Shiva who chose to kill . But she wont forgive herself She who had no choice who killed a fatcat mob boss who largely probably brought no good to the world.

And she still wants to die because she doesn’t believe she is a good person.

Its a testament to her complete adoration and worship of life and her nauseating abuse at David Cain hand’s.

Because even after everything she still doesn’t truly believe her father a bad man for putting her through all that nightmarish abuse . She strictly views him as bad because he forced her to kill . It wasn’t her fault AND SHE KNOWS THAT.

But she still doesn’t forgive herself even if she can forgive anyone else on the planet. She still wishes for death.

#cass my baby #cassandra cain #cassandra cain meta #dc #dc comics #cass cain #dc meta #batfam meta #i adore batgirl (2000) i own every comic she appears in

[fantastic-nonsense]

I might be wrong but I figured you'd be the person to ask: Someone in a Discord server I'm in was talking about the "popular fanon idea of Cass learning ASL and sometimes preferring it to speech." And I... don't think this is fanon? Doesn't she canonically know ASL? I know she learned English and (I believe) Mandarin but I'm almost positive there are also lots of canon instances of her signing.

Okay so I'm going to split this ask into two questions:

Does Cass know American Sign Language (ASL), canonically?

Could Cass learn ASL?

The answer to #1 is no, Cass doesn't canonically know ASL to my knowledge (caveat: this does not, apparently, apply to the Young Justice cartoon universe; Cassandra Wu-San does appear to know some form of legitimate sign language). Canon!Cass, on the other hand, knows some basic signs and does use them, but it's more charades, 'loud gesturing,' and basic hand signals than it is ASL. The reasons Cass knowing ASL is such a popular fanon misperception are rather complex, but it largely comes down to two things: misunderstanding how ASL works and misunderstanding what Cass's disability actually is.

ASL isn't just some fancy hand gestures that translate one-to-one into spoken English; that would be "baby sign" or spell signing at best. ASL is a language, with all of the complex grammar, vocabulary, syntax, and sentence structure that implies. It takes years of learning and immersion to understand, learn, and utilize properly, just like any other language. Treating it as anything else is a form of ableism.

Someone like Cass who has difficulty processing language is going to have just as much trouble learning ASL as she would English, Mandarin, or any other language, because her problem isn't that she just "doesn't know English." Cass's disability is not that she can't read or communicate verbally: it's that her brain is literally built different because of how Cain raised her, and that affects how she processes language (and thus how she communicates with other people):

"David Cain…had some unusal ideas about combat. He experimented with infants. Trained them in isolation and deprived them of human speech. The goal was to adapt the language center of the brain to interpret physical movement as a language. She can…read you. Your body. That's why she understands what you're saying when she doesn't know the words. It's why in combat, she knows what you're going to do before you do it." -Batgirl (2000) #1

"The language centers of your brain are all over both hemispheres. Not centralized like with most people. When you try to read or write, your brain doesn't know how to keep it cohesive. But the good news is--you can learn. It's just a matter of figuring out how." -Batgirl #67

It's actually specified somewhere (I don't have the panel on hand, unfortunately) that she doesn't know sign language; Cain wanted her to read natural body language and nuance, not artificial hand gestures. Cass's primary "language" (and thus form of communication) until her brain was semi-rewired was body language.

But body language isn't actually a language; it's a form of non-verbal communication that functions through the (largely subconscious) 'reading' of both conscious and unconscious physical movement. Cass's childhood and training simply elevated that ability to ridiculous heights:

"A special ability to predict my opponent's moves. That doesn't begin to describe it. Time...ran together. The future...blending...into the moment. A blink of an eye...the knife thrust that follows...both one. It was like...like I could predict my opponent's moves. Okay, that does describe it. But it doesn't do it justice. All this knowledge. No substitute for knowing." -Batgirl (2000) #7

We see explicitly how this ability plays out on several occasions throughout her Batgirl run and the Detective Comics Rebirth run, and it's pretty clear she's reading subconscious feelings, thoughts, and movement, not language:

Cass absolutely communicates via hand gestures before and after Batgirl #4, but it's not any form of cohesive language, much less ASL. It's effectively advanced charades mixed with some universal non-verbal gestures:

"You don't speak any language, do you? Except violence." -Detective Comics (1937) #734

"Is he giving you any trouble?" *Cass flaps her hand to indicate the guy is a blabbermouth* "Got you. He talks too much." -Batman: Family (2002) #7

*Cass gestures to Jason's heart, Tim's mind, and Dick's voice to indicate she understands how they work as a team*-Batman and Robin Eternal (2015) #3

People learning a English as a second language already have an understanding of how language works, but Cass doesn’t have that foundation. Her primary language isn't sign language, it's body reading. Thus, she struggles to speak, read, and write in English not because it's a different language than she's used to communicating with but because it's the first actual language she's ever learned. Fanon largely projects ASL fluency onto Cass because they fundamentally don't understand how her abilities work (and thus don't understand how her disability works either).

Does Cass have the ability to learn ASL? Absolutely! Would ASL be a really cool way of depicting Cass communicating with other people and an interesting way to showcase language learning difficulties and communication disabilities in the visual medium that is comics? Absolutely! I would actually be genuinely thrilled if canon and the fandom actually worked with what a physical, visual-based language like ASL might mean for Cass's ability to communicate given her childhood training. But as it stands, "Cass knowing ASL" is a well-meaning but misguided fanon attempt to showcase inclusivity while being...well, frankly kind of offensive.

(As for why she would theoretically "know" Mandarin, it's a product of the incredibly racist and ableist writing that defined the "Evil Cass Era." This culminated in DC putting her on a bus and shipping her off to Hong Kong because "Asian girl knows Asian languages, right? Brilliant! Send her off!" while ignoring literally everything about Cass ever. She's never actually shown speaking Mandarin, Cantonese, or any other dialect of Chinese on-panel, but we can reasonably infer she probably picked up SOME level of comprehension while living there.)

#cassandra cain #cassandra cain meta #batman #batfam #batgirl #asks #ableism #fanon vs canon #disability #note: I have not read all of Reboot!Cass's appearances so she theoretically MIGHT know ASL even though it's super doubtful #but pre-reboot!Cass DEFINITELY doesn't #long post #batman meta

[goodoldfashionedengineer]

Tim: So, and for what reason was I 17 years old for the last 15 years?

Damian: That's what you're complaining about? They couldn't even bother to give me a proper characterization until much later on. And then it is one that does not align with my upbringing!

Stephanie: At least you weren't killed just because of misogyny

Dick: Yeah, I wonder how anyone let that through. But then again, I shouldn't expect anything else from writers who made me stuck as Ric for two years and all the, you know, Tarantula stuff

Jason: It's honestly like they just spin a wheel every day to figure out if I'm a villain, hero or anti-hero

Duke: Forget about the writers, the fans also have some... wild assumptions

Stephanie: Yeah, like that you're the normal one!

Cass: Or that I'm mute. Just there to give emotional support

Barbara: Or that the most traumatic thing to ever happen to me is framed as something good just because I became Oracle. I barely had one page of dialogue in that entire story!

Tim: At least they get one thing right.

Dick: And that is?

Tim: Bruce.

Jason: Yeah, what is up with that?! It feels like I've become his punching bag! Why is he considered a hero again when he is just plain abusive at this point?

Duke: Patriarchy

Barbara: And male power fantasy

#meta #dc #dc comics #batman #batman comics #metafiction #tim drake #jason todd #dick grayson #damian wayne #damian al ghul #I could have talked more about other issues but if I'd do that I'd be sitting here until tomorrow #cassandra cain #stephanie brown #duke thomas #barbara gordon #robin #red robin #nightwing #dc signal #dc orphan #batgirl #dc spoiler #dc oracle #red hood #bruce wayne #batkids #batsiblings #batfam #batfamily

[tarragonthedragon]

i actually think that after she's had time to catch up on some social development Cass is probably one of the better bats at passing for normal. she and Dick and maybe Steph have the best sense of performing "just some guy". Bruce, Babs, and Duke all overstep the mark and successfully pass as "not normal but not in a batman way more a this dude weird as fuck way" whereas Tim, Damian, and Jason are all under the mistaken impression that they can just be a version of themselves that is not a vigilante and come off as genuinely unhinged

#batman #batfam #dc #meta #cassandra cain #Cass Cain #dick grayson #stephanie brown #bruce wayne #duke thomas #babs gordon #tim drake #jason todd #damian wayne

[londonclubofsherwood]

One thing that is important to me when discussing Cassandra Cain is the fact that she didn't develop her anti-killing moral position because of the bats. Neither does she have her moral code because she's Bruce's obedient golden child. Instead she decided at around age 8 that killing anyone (even some random criminal like in the 2000 batgirl series) was fundamentally wrong because it made them feel fear and pain. Finding out the bat-code had a similar perspective about killing was more validation than anything else. She would be saving everyone she could with or without batman.

She created her own moral framework against that her (in the 2000 series at least) white father. In spite of the fact the fact that her father literally objectified and dehumanised her, she fought to speak and be heard. She chose her own destiny, Babs and Bruce just helped her along the way.

As an Asian character it's important to me she wasn't 'taught' morals by white Americans, but rather she has a code that she developed herself. She doesn't listen to Bruce half the time, and she's more loyal to the concept of the bat symbol than anyone who wears it. She consistently disobeyed him in her original run. All these things aspects help her avoid being just a character with white saviour undertones, and allow her to instead be a heroic beacon of life and compassion in her own right.

#cassandra cain #batman #cass cain #batgirl #batgirl 2000 #black bat #orphan #dc meta #im only like a quarter asian #but she means so much to me as a mixed person

[daydreamerwonderkid]

Me, after doing 15 minutes of excessive googling on every Batfam member's birthday only to then realize I've accidentally missed the majority of them this year, and then also finding out that people are still aggressively debating over whether Bruce's birthday is April 7 or February 19, Dick's birthday happens 3-6x throughout the year, and Stephanie might have just popped into existence for all that DC cares:

Batfam birthday dates btw for anyone who needs them are listed beneath the cut:

DISCLAIMER: DC is notorious for being super inconsistent with everything and I am a mere tadpole caught in the tidal wave of DC's ocean. This post will be regularly updated with edits and corrections so please do not use it as word of law, I am begging you.

Update (8/24/23): To keep things more simple and easier for everyone I am going to start categorizing the birth dates I've collected into 3 categories.

-Most popular: Self-explanatory. These are the birth dates that have been canonized and confirmed by DC and are also more wildly celebrated by the fandom. Typically, this should be the first result you see when you google the character's birthday. But not always because DC sucks ass.

-Other date(s): These are the additional birth dates I come across that have been canonized in some form with multiple sources, but are not as wildly celebrated or popularized by DC and/or the fandom. Why am I including them here? Mostly because I don't want people coming in saying I forgot a date. But also because if I have to see this mess, then y'all have too as well.

-Potential but unconfirmed date(s): This is where I will put all the other additional dates I find, but specifically those that are lacking in complete sources or seem to be highly debated and scrutinized.

Also fun emoji ranking guide for me and me alone:

👑👑: Queen Shit. Characters with a consistent and simple birth date(s). Can absolutely do no wrong.

👑😮‍💨: In the Running. Characters who don't have a set birth date, but the mess is minor and completely DC's fault. They shouldn't have to be punished for DC's crimes.

🤡🤡: Gtfo. Shit is so inconsistent and stupidly messy that it's making me lose my shit. I'm putting DC and the characters on trial for this bullshit.

👑Alfred Pennyworth👑

Most popular: August 16

Other date(s): April 8 and March 31

(I think it'd be hella cute if Jason and Alfred shared a bday. But if you keep scrolling through the rest of the list, you'll see that August is kind of an overcrowded bday month for the Batfam.

Depending on what you prefer, though, I still think Alfred's worth being celebrated. Lord knows he deserves a special day for himself)

(Update ((8/24/23)): No big inconsistencies between these dates. I just thought it would be fun to provide some info on why Alfred has two canonical birthdates.

So the reason August 16 is viewed as the most popular is for two main reasons. One, obviously, is that he shares a birth date with Jason Todd. So many fans latch onto this date because of how sweet it is for them to share a birthday together.

The second reason has to do with the origin of the birth date. This is because of the more recent retcon that was made by the prequel comic to the Injustice: Gods Among Us video game that was published in 2013. There is a panel in the comic that shows Alfred's birth certificate in full detail from his full name, his place of birth, etc.

As for April 8, this specific date technically has more history compared to August 16. Fans will cite that April 8 was the official date selected by DC according to their Super DC Calendar back in 1976 (which btw was made in 1975).

Compared to August 16 and April 8, however, March 31 oddly enough isn't that popular or recognized by DC or the majority of the fandom. The reason March 31 does come up is because March 31, 1943 was the date when Alfred made his first appearance in the comics, one day after Bruce/Batman)

🤡Bruce Wayne🤡: Hey. Hey, DC, look at me. Bitch.

Most popular: February 19 or April 7

Other date(s): April 25, May 27, March 30, "October," October 7, and "November"

(It looks like most people go with February 19, but don't come at me if you're a April 7 truther. I'm just existing)

(Update ((8/20/23)): I'm gonna shoot somebody. So after doing a little bit more research, I came across-you'd never guess it-even more conflicting info on when Bruce's birthday is supposed to take place.

While April 7 and February 19 are still popular days for fans to celebrate Batman's bday, March 30 is also considered a popular date due to March 30, 1939 being the day Detective Comics #27 ((the issue Batman debuted in)) was put on shelves.

HOWEVER, even Batman's debut is contested to actually be May 27, 1939 because despite the fact that Detective Comics #27 first appeared to the public on March 30, 1939, the cover issue depicted May 27, 1939 instead.

This is because it was a popular practice for comics publication houses to falsify their cover dates as a way to give the impression that the latest issue was newer than it actually was. So if you really, really wanna get super fucking technical about it ((and I know there are some of you out there who do)), Batman may have debuted on March 30, but the cover-issue date was May 27 so, yes, I guess Bruce could have been a May baby instead.

I hate it here.

Oh, and to make matters more complicated, let's discuss the issue of April 7 vs April 25. So the reason April 7 is a popular bday for Bruce is because the original 1930-40s run just outright stated that April 7 was his birthday. Simple enough.

So what does April 25 have to do with this? Well, that's because technically-I think I hate that word now btw-Batman didn't get his own solo comic until April 25, 1940. If you want to go by April 25 because of this logic, however, that means that you'd have to share Bruce's birthday with the Joker. Because guess what? That's also the exact date that the Joker debuted.

I'm personally not a huge fan of Bruce and the Joker sharing a bday. Mostly just because the dates are clearly already complicated enough. But also I feel like April 25 is just known as the Joker's bday at this point, at least in the DC fandom. And Bruce has so many options at this point that it'd be kinda silly to make them share a bday.

As for the "sometime in October" and "sometime in November" additions, we have Batman The Animated Series and Frank Miller's "Batman: Year One" to thank for those extremely vague options.

BTAS Bruce states that his birthday is "sometime in October" and "Batman: Year One" Bruce is responsible for "sometime in November." I repeat: I hate it here.

So when is Bruce's actual birthday? Well, the latest change that DC has "officially" made was the February 19 retcon during the 1970-80s. When a fan sent a question into Detective Comics about Bruce's birthday, the answer given was "February 19" in the letter column. Issue #494, to be exact.

And the reason this answer was given? Because the Super DC Calender for 1976 (again made in 1975) said so.

However, there are still people who prefer to celebrate his bday on April 7 or March 30 instead. And there's also a question floating around if the New 52 run could potentially retcon Bruce's bday AGAIN at some point in the future.

I. Hate. It. Here.

Personally, I liked February 19 because then Alfred could maybe have the month of April to himself. But after seeing all this new info, I'm just sort of resigned to whichever date that the fandom prefers. Y'all can decide. I don't have any energy left.

Also, I can't believe I have to accuse Bruce of having possibly taught Dick his bday scam. Just .... wow).

(Update ((8/24/23)): Well, DC did it to me again. I found this extra little tidbit while googling the Super DC Calendar for Alfred, actually.

So Issue #10 of the 2021 Legends of the Dark Knight decided to give the BTAS's "sometime in October" an actual sometime.

How do I feel about yet another Bruce Wayne bday retcon? Honestly, I think I'm moving closer and closer to just a bland state of acceptance at this point. Tbh, I don't think all these retcons actually matter that much in the end. DC is gonna keep being DC.

Which is annoying. But Idk I'm personally gonna stick with February 19. No shade to you if you prefer any of the other dates. I just like February 19 more than the others)

👑Kate Kane👑

Most popular: March 21

Other date(s): January 26

(So ... where to start to with this one?

Well the official DC canon birth date for Kate Kane is listed as March 21. That being said, if you were to google Kate's birthday right now, you might be confused because that's not the first result that comes up.

Instead, you'll be greeted with January 26, 1990.

So what gives? If there's already an official DC approved birth date, then why the fuck is January 26 coming up all of a sudden?

Well, folks, you have the CW's Batwoman to thank.

Tbh I was very confused as to how I completely missed that there was an entire Batwoman TV show in the first place.

Apparently the show is considered a part of the CW Arrowverse (in reference to the CW show Arrow featuring Oliver Queen, for those of you who need extra info) and ran for 3 whole seasons before being cancelled on April 9, 2022.

And they gave us actual canon lesbian Kate Kane rep. I mean, she is a lesbian. But yeah. CW actually acknowledged her sexual orientation. So kudos for doing the bare minimum?????

Anyway, I guess the showrunners just decided they wanted Kate's birthday to be on January 26 instead of March 21??? Idk if this was supposed to be a reference or an homage to Cassandra Cain's birthday. I doubt it, but who knows?)

🤡Dick Grayson🤡: Greedy bitch who keeps lying about his birthday so he can scam people into giving him more presents jk jk

Most popular: "On the first day of spring" (bruh) or March 20/21

Other date(s): March 6, "April," October 24 (aka "the week before Halloween"), November 11 and December 1

Potential but unconfirmed date(s): June 24

(Dick's canon bday seems to be influx. March 6, March 20, March 21, November 11, June 24, December 1, and so on. I did see multiple sources state Dick was born "on the first day of spring." I'm unclear atm about whether this is a fanon take or if it was actually stated in a particular comic at some point.

As far as I'm concerned, Dick just keeps lying about his birthday for the lols)

(Update ((8/24/23)): Well, guess what I found, folks?

It's a return visit from our favorite friend, the Super DC Calendar of 1976. And according to it, Dick's birthday should be November 11.

You can also thank the Young Justice comic for the confusion surrounding Dick's bday being on December 1.

Also, I found this post by @theflyingwonder that helps clear up a LOT of the mess surrounding Dick's ever changing birth date. Honestly, amazing work and extra kudos to them for putting all the work in and finding all the sources. I just wished I had found their post earlier, holy shit.

And if you have some extra time, please give some love to @inkydandy for their hilarious and very sweet comic about all the confusion that comes with Dick's bday)

(Update ((8/25/23)): Many thanks to @poisoned-ivy for clearing up even more of the mess surrounding Dick's bday. I went ahead and took a screenshot of their response to my old "Which date is Dick's canon bday?" poll.

They also provided a link to the DC Universe Calendar which was lovingly compiled from the original 1976 Super DC Calendar and then put together by the people who run the Five Earths Project .

Also found out from them today that October 24 is one of Dick's bdays ((at least for Post-Crisis Dick Grayson)). So that was a fun new discovery!

They were also very helpful in helping me realize that the original article I had found that stated "sometime in April" was actually in reference to Dick Grayson's first appearance in the comics, which was April 1940.

So, yes, "sometime in April" is technically--again I hate this word so much now--still a valid candidate for Dick's bday. And before you ask: Detective Comics #38 was actually published on March 6, 1940.

Hence why people will cite March 6 as Dick's canon bday instead.

This project got a lot bigger than I ever expected it to ... god)

👑Barbara Gordon👑: September 23

👑Jason Todd👑: August 16

👑Cassandra Cain👑: January 26

👑Tim Drake👑: July 19

👑Stephanie Brown😮‍💨: She emerged from the void with the sole purpose of dragging Bruce's ass to hell and back. Nothing can stop her. We all exist in her world now.

Potential but unconfirmed date(s): June 23, "August," or August 11

(For real, though, some peeps will say June 23 since the month she officially debuted in the comics was June 1992.

But I've also seen August 1992 listed as her bday month as well--lot of August babies in the Batfam, huh--but I haven't found June 23 specifically listed as her canon bday, either. It honestly feels like the fans are putting in more work than DC at this point. Which, like, I'm not surprised. Just disappointed)

(Update ((8/24/23)): Someone mentioned August 11 as a potential birth date, but I have yet to see an actual source that specifically states this. If I do find one, I'll edit this section. Figured I should put it here just in case, though)

👑Duke Thomas👑: August 13

👑Damian Wayne👑: August 9

👑Terry McGinnis😮‍💨

Most popular: August 18

Other date(s): June 27 or August 10

Potential but unconfirmed date(s): September 19 (fml)

(Yes, I'm including Terry, fuck you lol

Also SERIOUSLY WTF is up with so many of these August birthdays!!!! Fuck, was everyone just getting crazy BUSY in November!!!! What's going on in the DC universe that is making November of all months the HORNY MONTH????!!!!)

(Mini update ((8/18/23)): Well, I just found out that apparently June 27th 2023 is also a highly debated birth date for Terry. As is August 10 2023/2024 and August 18 2023/2024. I even saw a mention of September 19 2023, but I don't know how credible that source actually is. I'm just putting it here because I'm losing my mind and I don't want someone to pop in and say I forgot it omfg I'm dying

I'm just ... why? Why is it so hard to just commit to one month and one date. I'm not even concerned about the exact year. Just commit to ONE, man.

Excuse me while I march over to DC HQ and burn the whole place to the ground iswtfg)

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on any of these. I have a massive headache now and am open to any suggestions or clarifications y'all have to offer.

Also, I'm going to fist fight Dick in a Denny's parking lot.

Update (8/17/23): So a mini post that I meant to use as a way to vent how insane Dick was making me somehow blew up way more than I ever expected it to, and now I feel obligated to clarify again that I am open to any corrections and additional info that anyone has to offer.

I'm saying this because I've noticed people reblogging this post for actual Batfam bday references and someone already pointed out I fucked up Tim's bday and now I feel bad for everyone who reblogged this post prior to that edit.

It's probably just the anxiety talking, but yeah I just wanted to put that out there.

Also justice for Stephanie Brown! She deserves to have her own special day and if I have to bully DC into giving her a canon birthday, then you bet your ass I fucking will.

(And to all of y'all who are encouraging Dick to keep running his side scam business, I just have this to say: There's an empty Denny's parking lot somewhere out there just waiting for you, too lol)

#batfam #batfamily #bruce wayne #dick grayson #jason todd #stephanie brown #tim drake #cassandra cain #duke thomas #damian wayne #alfred pennyworth #batman comics #batman meta #batfam meta #long post #long post is long #for real though #if i existed in the dc universe #and i happened to run into either dick grayson or nightwing #it would be on fucking sight #motherfucker gave me an anxiety attack #it's the least of his sins #pinning this post for the time being #terry mcginnis #make sure to double check post for any possible edits or updates #batfam birthdays #kate kane

[mysterycitrus]

Clearly you’ve got a lot of opinions abt the characterisations of the batfam in fandom /pos

Can you elaborate on your interpretation for all of them? /gen

it’s called caring too much — and it’s incurable! wrt my personal interpretation, that's a long and complicated answer, so ill just focus on the internal character of the waynes (specifically bruce and his five canonical kids).

bruce wayne is a control freak, we know this. his parents were killed for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and he has literally never ever been able to truly process it. the degree to which he is controlling - firing robins, survelling his allies without their consent, compiling personal information from others, disregarding others feelings in favour of his own - is all about trying to achieve the best possible outcome. everything he does is justified, because if he's in control then he can stop bad things from happening. it is all in favour of the greater good. it's the logic of an eight year old who's just lost everything and hasn't grown up.

if bruce's trauma manifests control then dick's manifests personal perfectionism. he holds himself to such an absurd standard because he's a flier - when you're catching someone on the trapeze you quite literally have to be there, always, ready to take their hand. if you don't, they fall. if there's no net, if dick isn't the net, then they die. he’s always swinging back out and in again, waiting for the next person to slip through his fingers. he does not fear falling, only what will happen when he hits the ground. he’s a born performer made to be an atlas, carrying an unbearable weight that anchors him to the earth.

jason after death is a tragedy of his own creation, and dc's worst crime is trying to justify the terrible decisions he makes. jason isn’t right, because what he wants is not about protecting other kids from his fate or being a better batman. he wants to be personally vindicated, even though he knows it's impossible. jason rejected himself, bruce, everything, in order to transform into a weapon to enact violence. deep down he's so angry, so hurt, that he'll go after other children - tim, damian, mia - and still decry bruce in the same breath. killing the joker, killing bruce, killing dick, killing every robin before or since won't take him back to who he was before. you cannot go back. you can never go back.

cass sees everything. she can't unsee it, she can't ignore it, nothing in the body can be truly hidden from her, but like bruce that doesn't mean she's always right. she killed a man and witnessed his death, and thus will never take another life. she is all knowing, but she was not born knowing herself. she's jason in reverse — she turns from steel to flesh and bone. she will do whatever it takes to be good. she has made herself real.

tim chose this life in the most literal sense of the word, and then kept choosing it. it’s his duty, it’s his honour, it has hollowed him out and left nothing behind. his tethers to the world snap one by one — janet and jack and darla and dana and steph and kon — and suddenly it’s much harder to extricate himself from the black. robin, dick grayson, is his guiding north star, but his north star is only human. he knows he is capable, he knows this is his choice, and he knows he has long since lost the chance to unchoose.

damian is raised in the shadow of the bat. he is born of blood. he knew death before he knew his father. he is a child. he is ancient. he is a killer. he only wants to do good. he loves his mother. his father is gone before he learns to love damian. damian loves someone else who wears the bat but does not carry wayne name. everything he knows about himself is questioned — robin is given to him, and suddenly he can decide his own fate, make his own family. he wants to be the best, but he doesn’t know what he wants that to mean anymore. he wants the chance to find out.

#sorry this got long! not sure if i actually answered ur question lol #batfam #dick grayson #bruce wayne #jason todd #tim drake #cassandra cain #damian wayne #nightwing #batgirl #batman #dc comics #the ask and the answer #dc meta #ig?

[franollie]

if every DC writer could read DC first: batgirl/joker that’d be great

even in just the last few pages it really nails their dynamic and the meaning of the batgirl mantle. Cass more than anything has a deep seated need to prove herself. shes competitive and babs knows this

THESE PANELS RIGHT HERE!! THIS WAS THE WHOLE POINT!!

“you’re going to make people forget me and thats okay” GOD I WISH

more than anything the batgirl mantle is about needing to prove yourself be it to the men in your life (babs), to the readers (cass), or to the writers (steph)

this is why babsgirl doesn’t really work anymore. babs has proved she’s capable as oracle she doesn’t need the batgirl mantle anymore. batgirl was the first name cass was given and it was someone else’s—thats not inherently a bad thing. it gives her a reason to keep fighting and it suits her natural need of competition.

anyways if you aren’t gonna read Batgirl 2000 at the very least read DC first: batgirl/joker

#cass & babs #cassandra cain #barbara gordon #dc first: batgirl/joker #batgirl meta

[bruciemilf]

So I've been thinking more and more abt the fact that the fandom credits Bruce's incompetence in adulthood to being rich, and sure, it definitely plays a part, but I don't really get...Where it stems from specifically?

First of all, I don't think I've ever even seen a Mention of cleaning, cooking, gardening, driving etc staff; Alfred's our multi purposed, tired king, but he doesn't seem to have any colleagues to speak of?

Second of all; The Waynes truly don't seem like the " having people waiting on them hand and foot" brand of rich people? Like, wasn't their simplicity and relatively down to earth-ness the main reason why Gotham loved them so much??

So! Bruce's isolation and general lack of self-care knowledge can't be all blamed on his money, but the fact that he truly...Didn't have anyone to look at to learn?

Alfred did his best of course, but this is a heavily traumatised 8 year old who refused to look at anyone as family in fear of losing them too for the longest time.

I'm just crying at the thought of Bruce having no one to teach him how to pay bills, or make an appointment at the dentist, or go grocery shopping by himself, to order for himself at restaurants, or cook himself dinner, or keep his place tidy.

Those are all very mundane but precious and valuable activities that parents teach and share with their kids, and Bruce didn't fully get that. So what he did do was make sure his kids knew how to do it all.

Tim doesn't understand why Bruce wants them to try cooking every night. Jason doesn't get why he has to join Bruce, to watch him withdraw money or open an account at the bank

Damian doesn't get why they practice appointments with the vet. Cass doesn't necessarily think a 2 hour tutorial on how to power up the washing machine is crucial to her education.

" Because I don't want you to be like me. And when I'm gone, I want to make sure you can take care of yourself."

That may be the wrong thing to say because the thought of Bruce dying like a normal person makes them sob

#bruce wayne #meta #dc meta #bruce wayne meta #dc #dc comics #batdad #batfamily #nor trying to paint alfred as a neglective parent at all!! he probably wasn't prepared to teach these things himself so he just kinda... #did everything for bruce from a misguided place of love #jason todd #damian wayne #tim drake #cassandra cain #text #text post #this is specifically abt #battinson

[spite-and-waffles]

I always wonder whether Batfam fans really get just how fucking rich the Waynes are. Like of course we shy away from thinking about the fact that we're talking Musk and Bezos money, and focus on how Bruce funds the freaking Watchtower and has what is functionally a high-tech military base and lab and the world's most expensive vehicles. But this is the one time you don't have to factor in the implications of wealth-hoarding, so there's nothing preventing y'all from understanding exactly how much money we're talking about here.

For instance, there doesn't seem to be any concept of how palatial Wayne Manor is, simply going by the outer facades of it that appear in the comics and movies. Or how decadent the lifestyles that accompany that kind of ancestral home. Alfred couldn't run that place on his own even if he had super powers, which is why even the movies occasionally show a rotating probably-temporary staff in the background. The house probably has like 3 hundred-foot pools. Their garden is a protected heritage park.

The Waynes are 10x richer than Crazy Rich Asians. They buy and wear the jewelry worth hundreds of millions that belonged to royalty. They own private islands. The art in the house alone is worth more than the GDP of a small country. They went to school with like every US President since Teddy Roosevelt and still think the Rockefellers are new money. They're personal friends with Beyonce and can get her to perform at private parties. They can rent out an entire three-star Michelin restaurant and fly out to one for every date. They have top-line penthouse apartments in every major city in the world. They can buy a luxury sportscar instead of hiring a vehicle anywhere they visit and then just toss the keys to the nearest person on their way out (Arab royalty is known for this appearently. There's been some very lucky parking valets in the UAE iirc).

Bruce is as rich as Ra's Al Ghul, regularly make social calls to heads of state and his family has a history of being king-makers. Every one of Bruce's children, from Dick to Jason to Cass, is poised to inherit one of the largest and most powerful empires in the world. That means every time Bruce adopts an orphan off god-knows-where, the entire global elite is thrown into consternation and horror. Even Tim is barely acceptable to these people because he doesn't have the pedigree. I don't follow the reboot comics so Idk if Duke is adopted, but it would be so fucking funny if he was because they'd react a lot like the British establishment did to Meghan Markle (except the family and WE would have Duke's back completely). As for Damian, the fact that he's not white would get him snubbed if everyone who's anyone didn't 100% know who Ra's Al Ghul is. And they're fucking terrified because, for maximum hilarity, they probably figure that Bruce doesn't.

I just find it incredibly fucking funny when I'm reading fics that the writers can only imagine Bruce and the kids's civilian privileges extend only to "big house", "a lot of cars" and "Gotham famous". Lol. Lmao even.

...

Edit: Explanation for people justifiably skeptical that Bruce could be rich as Ra's (scroll down)

#dcu #dc comics #batfamily #the wayne family #bruce wayne #dick grayson #jason todd #tim drake #damian wayne #cassandra cain #duke thomas #batfamily meta #bat meta #dc meta #only in gotham #spite waffle #capitalism #colonialism #white supremacy #ra's al ghul

[galaxymagitech]

Batfam Kill Counts

I believe that the kill counts for the Batfam are in the following order: 1. Jason (~500); 2. Tim (100-300); 3. Alfred (20-100); 4. Damian (~50); 5. Bruce (5-10); 6. Dick (1-5); 7. Cass (1)

However, based on the absolute certain facts and not just speculation, kill counts are as follows, I believe: 1. Jason (83 confirmed); 2. Alfred (many); 3. Damian (3+); 4&5. Cass & Bruce (1); 6. Dick (1-ish); 7. Everyone else (0)

These aren’t counting vampires or pre-crisis early Batman characterization. I have probably missed some stuff because I have only read some comics, but from what I’ve read and Google this is my general understanding.

Reasoning explained:

1. Jason — Jason has 83 confirmed kills, but honestly I don’t buy that he hasn’t killed more than that. I’m interpreting “confirmed” as in “we have absolute proof that the Red Hood killed them” whereas his actual kill count is much higher. I headcanon it as somewhere around 500 people, but the number could be in the thousands.

2. Tim — This one’s controversial…I personally think Tim killed people when blowing up the League of Assassins bases, but not nearly as many as people often say. He definitely blew up the bases BY blowing up their computer systems, and there are explosions shown. Probably around 100-300 people, as a side effect and not the goal.

3. Alfred — Served in the military, but people SEVERELY overestimate the number of kills a soldier would have from that, especially as he presumably wasn’t dropping bombs. In WWII estimates for average number of kills per soldier range from 5-20. Alfred was likely exceptional, but I doubt that he killed more than 100 people. He may actually be #4 on this list, with fewer kills than Damian.

4. Damian — Confirmed kills are Spook and Nobody, and he did those so easily that he has DEFINITELY killed routinely, but again, I think people attribute far more kills to him than he actually has done. He was raised in the League of Assassins, but they don’t just kill willy-nilly. He’s probably killed <10 people to prove he’s capable of it and <100 people (maybe even 0) for the League. Overall, I don’t buy that Damian has killed more than 60 people.

5. Bruce — I think he has accidentally killed a significant number of people. This one’s also controversial, but his methods are brutal and he’s been working for a long time. It’s likely that he’s done enough damage that the criminal dies in the hospital multiple times. He’s also done things like leaving KGBeast to die trapped underground or bleeding out unable to move in the tundra by his hand. I don’t think he’s watched someone die by his hands, but…yeah. He has also killed Darkseid for sure.

6. Dick — Killed Joker (who was revived soon afterwards, so it half-counts), has also worked with Batman so long that I think he has killed other people by accident too. Has also displayed disregard for if his actions result in a criminal being killed by other criminals, especially early on in Nightwing (1996). Considers himself to have killed Blockbuster, but…yeah no.

7. Cass — 1 confirmed kill. After that, she ran and put in a large amount of effort to avoid killing ever again. She became evil, but I’m pretty sure this has been unwritten and most people refuse to accept it anyway.

To my knowledge, Steph, Barbara, and Duke haven’t killed anyone, and likely have not accidentally killed anyone either due to their methods.

Of course, feel free to disagree!

#meta #batman #dick grayson #jason todd #tim drake #alfred pennyworth #damian wayne #cassandra cain #bruce wayne #batfamily #batfam #dc #dc comics #dcu #text post #dc meta #batman meta #headcanon #headcanons #batman spoilers

[fantastic-nonsense]

While you are digging into batfam lore, could you perhaps help explain what the batkids' legal names all are? Fanfiction has messed me all up. Did any of them actually legally take Wayne as their last name? I see it most often with Tim (i.e. Timothy Drake-Wayne) and Cass (i.e. Cassandra Wayne) but I haven't read any comics that I recall that actually called them that.

Sure! A quick rundown of who's actually part of the Wayne family:

Wayne family: Dick, Jason, Tim, and Cass were all legally adopted at one point or another in the post-Crisis universe (post-reboot is....complicated. Dick, Jason, and Tim are all once again adopted after a long series of retcons; Cass's status is still unknown). Damian is Bruce's biological son.

NOT Wayne family: Barbara Gordon, Stephanie Brown, Helena Bertinelli, any members of the Fox family (Luke, Tam, Tiffany, Jace, etc), Harper Row, etc.

Duke is a complicated case; he was Bruce's temporary foster son for a year before moving in with his cousin Jay, who now has custody of him. He's...sort of considered Wayne family, in that at least Jason and Tim consider him to be sort of their brother, but he wasn't adopted and no longer lives with Bruce.

Other: Kate and Bette Kane, who are Bruce's cousins and part of the Kane family.

As for legal last names and who actually calls themselves Waynes:

Damian's legal last name is Wayne. The al Ghuls tend to call him "Damian al Ghul" when he's with them, but legally his last name is Wayne; it's also the name Damian goes by UNLESS he's specifically attempting to leverage the al Ghul name amongst his family or the League of Assassins.

Dick continues to go by and think of himself as "Richard John Grayson" even after being adopted, though he explicitly calls himself Bruce's adopted son in several arcs after his adoption happens. You can take your pick of reasons why this might be (and there's quite a few to choose from, mostly connected to Dick's love for his bio parents and already being an established adult when Bruce adopted him), but Grayson was and remains his legal last name.

Jason canonically remained "Jason Peter Todd" after his adoption, per his death certificate:

Jason's death certificate, naming him as "Jason Peter Todd." -Batman Annual #25 (2006)

He was also "Jason Todd" to the general public; it's what people call him when they talk about him both before and after his death. The Red Hood and the Outlaws Rebirth comic (specifically RHATO #33) confirms that this is the case in the post-Flashpoint universe as well. However, there's a pretty reasonable canon foundation to assume that had Jason's adoption not happened in the 80s and had writers not wanted to complicate things, he probably would have chosen to hyphenate and become Jason Todd-Wayne, based largely on a) Jason's relationship with Willis Todd and b) Bruce and Jason's relationship before his death.

We simply don't know what Cass did. Cass was adopted off-panel in the vague period in between Batman RIP and Final Crisis, but Bruce's death threw everything up into the air; Cass was then promptly put on a bus and shipped out to Hong Kong for the duration of the Reborn era, and since she shows up in a grand total of 8 comics during that time we just don't get enough information to make a judgement call about her last name. Her two appearances in Tim's Red Robin book still call her Cassandra Cain, but it's unclear whether Fabian Nicieza, the writer, even knew her adoption had happened:

"Cassandra Cain, former Batgirl, remains one of the most dangerous fighters on the planet..." /// "Cassandra Cain, aka The Black Bat, Hong Kong operative for Batman, Inc." -Red Robin #17 & #25

Since Cass never had much of a public identity to speak of in the first place (and for a long time didn't even want one), it's super ambiguous what her legal status is and what last name she holds post-adoption. It's pretty reasonable to assume she becomes Cassandra Wayne, though, and it's also my personal preference. Though her relationship with David Cain is complicated, she doesn't hold much attachment to him as a father; likewise, there's really no reason for her not to take on the Wayne name given her attachment to Bruce.

Tim is the complicated one here, mostly because his adoption was such A Production™. Tim was formally adopted about a year in-universe after the events of Identity Crisis (when Tim’s dad was killed by Captain Boomerang). The adoption was pretty high-profile; Tim and Bruce even sat for an interview about it:

From 2007-2011, he's called Tim Drake and Tim Wayne (and occasionally Tim Drake-Wayne) pretty interchangably depending on the writer and situation. His legal name is probably Tim Drake-Wayne, though it's actually ambiguous. He tends to go by Tim Wayne in public while usually referring to himself as Tim Drake in private:

"And by the way, it's Wayne when I want a favor or a table at Bartese, and it's Drake when I look in the mirror." -Red Robin #15

"A question for Mr. Wayne--" /// "Reporting live from the reopening of the Newton Community Gym where Tim Wayne is about to address the crowd." -Red Robin #14 and 15

Post-Flashpoint, that adoption was erased and Bruce and Tim’s relationship was very strained; in the Rebirth era, his adoption was implied to be canon again in both Tynion’s Detective Comics run and King's Batman run, but we didn’t get confirmation until Infinite Frontier and Urban Legends, where Tim is once again explicitly adopted and occasionally called Tim Wayne, though he still mostly goes by and is referred to as Tim Drake:

"But just to be clear--we're not splitting the bill, Tim Wayne." -Urban Legends #4

"...and then Mr. Wayne just adopted you? Awful generous of him." -Urban Legends #4

Tim is also the only one regularly referred to in public as "Bruce's adopted son." Most of the time they're referred to as "Bruce Wayne's wards," so whether the adoptions are public knowledge or not is questionable, but their status as his wards and foster kids is not. Though they largely never lived in the Manor at the same time, they've all attended various public functions as Bruce's kids and acted on Bruce's behalf in various capacities while in the public eye.

tl;dr Tim is canonically the only one who takes the last name "Wayne" upon being adopted; he generally continues to refer to himself as Tim Drake, but canon calls him "Tim Drake," "Tim Drake-Wayne," and "Tim Wayne" pretty interchangably afterwards. Dick doesn't change his name and canonically Jason didn't either, though you could make a case that he might have hyphenated had his adoption been written in the modern era. We don't see Cass enough after her adoption to know either way; however, her existing canon relationships with Bruce and her biological family heavily support and/or imply that she probably became Cassandra Wayne.

#dc comics #batman meta #batfam meta #asks #long post #dick grayson #jason todd #tim drake #cassandra cain #damian wayne #tim drake meta #cassandra cain meta #dick grayson meta #jason todd meta #bruce wayne #fanon vs canon

[mzminola]

More highly subjective opinion time: Battle for the Cowl should’ve been a fight between Cass and Jason.

Cass canonically wants the job of Batman, and part of her arc is learning skills useful for detective work, because she already has the fighting skills down cold.

Jason is the one who’s just as obsessed with Gotham as Bruce is, which is important for being Batman specifically rather than a more general superhero/vigilante.

Cass and Jason have different crimefighting philosophies, and fairly matched skillsets. Cass is the better one-on-one fighter hands down, no question, whereas Jason is repeatedly shown to be an over-planner who studies his opponents and takes their skills/knowledge/habits into account.

They’ve both died and gone through the Lazarus Pit, both killed and come to different conclusions about killing, struggled with parental/mentor expectations while figuring out who they are.

Dick & Tim canonically actively want to not be Batman, and when they wind up in the role it’s very bad for them. Damian is ten. Let them all be involved in the story as supporting cast and further opportunity for debate about the lines vigilantes should draw.

Jason talks a lot while he fights to throw people of their game and also to sway them to his views. Cass does not talk more than she has to, but she is very snarky in her internal monologue boxes. I think that could be a hilarious combination through most of the run...

And also perfectly set up for Jason to give a huge philosophy speech in their final battle ending with Cass winning, leaning in close, and telling him, “You can change.”

#I think Cass telling him that would both feel like a gut punch and also piss him off #Cass doesn't lose it's her thing so like #her winning Battle for the Cowl is a given #it's how we get there and what themes we can explore along the way that's interesting #Cassandra Cain #Jason Todd #Batman #DC #Battle for the Cowl #Batfam #comics meta #potentially I guess #let Dick Grayson keep being Nightwing and also take a nap #BatCass AU

[tarragonthedragon]

Cass is the only batchild who doesn't think one of the others is Bruce's favourite but really they're all wrong because instead of regular favouritism he has an encyclopedic mental tally of "child which has annoyed me most times (lifetime award)". somehow Dick is winning in both directions

#batfam #batman #dick grayson #cassandra cain #Cass Cain #bruce wayne #dc #meta

[nenehyuuchiha]

I want a batfamily au cryptid but Bruce is the only human one, his robins? The mostly normal looking kids? They're are little freaks.

#batfamily #batman #robin #Bruce Wayne #dick Grayson #tim drake #Jason Todd #cassandra cain #Damian Wayne #they're all little freaks #duke is already weird cause he's a meta

[crim-bat]

Hot take but Bruce shouldn't be able to beat his students as easily nearly as often as comics make him out to be able to do. Bruce had more training and he trained for longer but Bruce distilled that training into them in presumably the most characteristically efficient Batman style that he possibly could have been.

Dick has been at this only maybe two or three years less than Batman and Jason went out to get as much training as Bruce did and was able to out fox Bruce for about a month before he caught on. Cassandra is basically an instant win condition so we're not counting her. She's basically the throwing of exodia in this situation.

That's not to say he still shouldn't win in some scenarios. He obviously shouldn't want to fight his kids outside of training and he is still physically stronger than all them except maybe Jason and he still does have more experience.

This is all just to say that, especially with Dick and Jason and maybe tim, although DC has kind of started to make Tim a less capable fighter in the last decade, Bruce should not be able to beat them as handedly as he often does.

#batman meta #Jason todd #red hood #robin #dick grayson #nightwing #red robin #tim drake #Cassandra cain #batgirl #bruce wayne #batman #bat family #dc comics #detective comics #gotham