#He showed concern for her when she was in an abusive relationship with the Joker | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

fairymascot · 2 years

Note

have you caught up to the last eat bang kill tour? if you did, do you think they managed to salvage the characters or nah

i read it, yeah. alas, i was not impressed. started listing my issues with it and it turned into a bit of a novel, lmao, so i’m gonna stash it under a cut.

like... first of all, i'm tired of seeing harley in the damsel role. this is a near identical retread of the harley quinn & birds of prey comic miniseries, where harlivy's falling out is resolved through harley winding up in a near death situation and ivy heroically saving her. i didn't love it then and i don't love it now. it's only marginally less sexist to shove powerful women in damsel roles when other women are doing the rescue, and it's equally as painful to see women undergoing horrible torture for the sole purpose of evoking an emotional response in the reader -- yes, even if the payoff is lesbian romance. it's trite, cheap, and it feels innately disrespectful to harley's character. not to say she needs to be infallible always -- but even, for example, when she was joker's captive in the s1 finale, she came in with a goal, a plan, and fighting spirit. it was a pretty desperate situation, and he had most of the power, but she wasn't rendered as helpless and pitiful as she was in the comic finale, nor were we subjected to any gory, graphic details of her torment. i mean, gore is fine. violence is fine. i am not some delicate flower. but played like this, it just feels like torture porn.

on top of that, i was absolutely rolling my eyes at ivy's whole 'redemption arc'. first of all: it was written extremely stupidly. 'i'm mean to harley because of my emotional issues that all stem from my abusive dad, so i'm gonna go in my head and kill him. boom! normal now'. what a ridiculously reductive view of ivy's character and human psychology on the whole? like, killing your childhood abuser in your head gives you nothing. it does not magically solve all of your mental problems.

not to mention, while he may have been the root of her original trauma, ivy has so many other issues piled on that have nothing to do with him?? she's a social outcast, she can barely stand the company of other people while also extremely concerned about how she's perceived, she's scared of opening up and showing vulnerability, she's wishy washy and has a hard time making decisions about her future, etc etc. those are issues that are caused by more than just her dad-- there's her peers at school, her repressed sexuality, her (presumed) trauma and transformation at the hands of woodrue, the future she planned with kiteman blowing up in her face... so explain to me how going in her head and killing her dad is gonna solve all that. lmao.

also, just the way franklin went about it, 'ivy hallucinates harleen and goes into her memories with her while on the outside she just appears to suffer a massive brainfreeze' -- again, just a cheap retread of events from the show, and it barely even makes sense in this context because franklin just slapped em on willy nilly. HARLEY hallucinates harleen because she is her past self, and her consciousness was splintered when she became harley quinn, trapping her previous persona as some sort of ghost figment in her head. why would IVY hallucinate harleen. when has there been any indication of that happening. it's yet another part of franklin's approach to this whole series -- lazily recycling ideas, scenes, word-for-word lines from the show to make for a cool reference, without remotely grasping the logic behind those scenes or the purpose they originally served. like, genuinely, this woman Does Not Get It.

even ignoring how stupidly the 'redemption' was executed, though, the fact is... the very fact that ivy NEEDED a redemption was terrible characterization. that's not to say harley and ivy's relationship doesn't have issues they'll need to work on-- while she's already started on this path, ivy still needs to work on establishing boundaries, communicating her feelings clearly, and allowing herself to be vulnerable. harley's been working on her selfishness and recklessness, but that doesn't mean she's completely outgrown them. and neither of them have ever been in a healthy, equal relationship with someone who deeply loves them and is GOOD to them, which i'm sure will lead to some interesting stuff in season 3. but you know what issues they've NEVER had? ivy treating harley like she's human garbage! ivy belittling her at every turn, scolding her like she's a child, getting angry at every little thing she does, flat out ignoring her when harley tries to talk to her. this is not their dynamic, this is not who ivy is. when ivy in the comic looks at vixen and her gf and goes 'omg, this is what non toxic love looks like, i should be more like that!' all i can say is, fuck off. ivy knows what non toxic love is. it's her love for harley. franklin just totally destroyed those characters and their relationship for the sake of a halfassed, completely unnecessary two-minute redemption arc.

god, what an absolute waste of time.

#tldr HATED IT THANKS!#askbox #text #harlivy #eat bang kill tour #my rambles

68 notes · View notes

thevindicativevordan · 2 years

Note

have any thoughts on Cheetah?

Been a lot of debate as to what exactly qualifies a villain as the "archnemesis" of a hero. Is it power levels? Thematic and backstory parallels/contrasts? Victories over the hero? Well with Cheetah it's pretty much been because she's the only Wonder Woman Rogue the general public knows of.

Not meant to dump on her, I think Cheetah is very fucking cool, especially after Rucka's Rebirth run where his revamp of her finally got me to care about the character. Comparing Cheetah with her counterparts however, Lex and Joker, I don't believe even the most hardcore Wonder Woman fan would dispute that Cheetah isn't on the same level as those two. She doesn't have a back catalog of iconic stories, she hasn't been well-served in media adaptions (usually either getting mere cameos or jobbing to make Batman/the Batfamily look good), and historically her characterization has been overly simplistic. Hating Diana out of sheer jealousy isn't necessarily a bad take on their relationship, writers have spun gold with that element on Superman and Lex's relationship after all, but it's not the only element in play with the Superman/Lex enmity whereas petty hatred was more or less the end all be all of why Wonder Woman and Cheetah were foes. Without there being more to it, even if was merely a cover for the jealousy that was the true cause, such as how Lex hides his jealousy of Superman beneath a public mask of concern for how Superman robs humanity of agency, it's no wonder Cheetah still lacks a story on the level of The Killing Joke or Luthor. Thankfully Rucka gave her a character revamp that is a fantastic base to build her up depth-wise.

Thematically what role does Cheetah play in Diana's Rogues Gallery? Rucka gave her a background that really elevated her character-wise: Cheetah is the exact kind of woman Wonder Woman exists to save, a woman who has been brutally abused at the hands of men, but she's so broken that she can't accept the help Wonder Woman wants to give her. Barbara has been tormented and neglected by Man's World, her father never showing her any affection, her patron god implied to have outright raped her when he "claimed" her, and the curse of being Cheetah having robbed her of humanity. Why then does she cling to being Cheetah, why reject or resist the multiple attempts Diana has made to free her? Because being Cheetah is the only way Barbara feels empowered. As awful as the transformation process was, as much as it's cost her, becoming Cheetah gave Barbara a taste of real power and control over her life. No longer does she suffer from comparing herself with Diana, and constantly coming up short in her own self-evaluation, now she's Diana's physical equal.

Currently Cheetah is Wonder Woman's Two-Face, the former friend who has succumbed to her inner demons and may be beyond redemption. Not because Wonder Woman doesn't believe in her ability to return to the side of good, but because Cheetah doesn't want "redemption". Return to being Barbara Minerva, the weak, helpless archaeologist, who never felt in control of her own destiny? Scoffing at such notions, Cheetah carves her own path through life, even though it means leaving others broken or dead in her wake. Wonder Woman came to save those who suffered under patriarchy, but what can she do for those who refuse and reject her help? Cheetah is the villain who poses that existential question and causes Wonder Woman anguish simply by existing. Wanting to save her old friend, knowing Cheetah will hurt others, knowing Cheetah has already hurt others, struggling with feeling both that she failed Barbara and that she's constantly failing Barbara's victims adds some great underlying emotions to their fights.

Furthermore there's one element that I believe Rucka really wanted to make canon but was blocked by editorial on: making Barbara the first woman Diana was in a relationship with like how Steve was her first man. Wasn't the only one to read the blatant Sapphic undertones in how Rucka approached Diana and Barbara's relationship in Rebirth right? Would bet almost anything that the Barbara/Etta relationship was supposed to be Diana/Barbara originally, adding a nice love triangle tension to Diana/Steve/Barbara. Have no clue if I'm just projecting my own desire for what I personally want to see, but given Rucka's preference for writing bisexual/lesbian female protagonists I really doubt Diana of all characters getting some blatant queer vibes with Cheetah was unintentional. Considering they made Superman's son bisexual, is it too much to ask that DC canonizes Wonder Woman/Cheetah being ex-lovers in addition to ex-friends? Fucking Joker gets to proclaim his love for Batman, Cheetah not being able to do the same for Wonder Woman is obscene.

Another benefit of making the two ex-lovers is that you could build Cheetah's motivations around that relationship. Every villain needs to have a goal of some kind, and Cheetah's problem is that writers haven't been sure what hers is after Rucka's run ended. Goal I'd give her? Besides indulging her every whim after a lifetime of repression, Cheetah wants Wonder Woman. Everything she does, every crime she commits, every life she takes, it's all geared at drawing Diana's attention, a twisted way of forcing Diana to spend time with her. All Cheetah wants deep down is for Diana to love her the way Cheetah loves Diana, but only as Cheetah does Barbara feel deserving of Diana's love. Have her seeking out a way to be able to transform between her Cheetah and human forms at will whenever she's not provoking Diana, with the delusion that the two of them can be together once Cheetah has total control over her transformations. Gives her a reason to commit various crimes, she's secretly searching for a solution to her inability to change back and forth, and she will target anything from other sites of magic and power (using her background as an archaeologist) to scientific labs or corporate HQs, tracking any lead she can find.

My ideal take would be that Diana and Barbara made a go of it pre-Cheetah, with Diana ultimately ending the relationship out of concern for how toxic Barbara was becoming (constantly taking risks to prove to Diana that she could handle herself, frequently telling Diana how inferior she feels compared to Wonder Woman, etc), and that is part of why Barbara went over the edge. Believing that Diana dumped her because she viewed Barbara as "weak" (a projection of her own low self-esteem), Barbara sought out the Temple of Urzkartaga due to legends speaking of the god offering power to his followers, There she hoped to find a way to make herself Diana's equal and be "worthy" of Diana's love, but it all ended in tragedy as Barbara got her wish in the worst way possible. Gives Diana a villain as a potential romantic interest and also explains why she goes to such lengths to save Barbara: she harbors feelings of guilt and responsibility over how Barbara attempted to "prove" herself to Diana after their break-up.

Sucks that WW 1984 was a dud because that was Cheetah's best opportunity to really break out in terms of public awareness about the nuances of her character. Don't know when there will be another chance, maybe she'll be in Wonder Woman 3 and they'll do better with her there? Frustrating to see DC constantly drop the ball with chances to elevate Wonder Woman's Rogues. If they really want to portray Cheetah as Wonder Woman's greatest foe than they need to treat her better, because her recent depictions outside of comics have not benefitted the character at all. Same as the rest of the Wonder Mythos, Cheetah deserves better.

#cheetah #wonder woman

27 notes · View notes

justcourttee · 4 years

Note

So I know you've been very busy so just stay strong, I know you can do it! :) I was also wondering if I could request more sibling jasonette with the Joker going after Marinette once he finds out they're related? Take your time getting to this request if you need to, I know it'll be great when you get to it! Don't stress yourself out too much!

Thank you so much, I really do apologize for being so spotty the last month or so. I think I’m finally getting back to some sense of normal, so hopefully, I can write more :)

I hope you like it!

An Average Night in Gotham City

Marinette couldn’t believe her luck.

Being the holder of the ladybug miraculous, you would think that everything would go her way, but it seems that Tikki had a funny way of distributing that good luck.

“Well, well, well, what do we have here?”

The rank smell of something souring surrounded her senses as she dangled from the ceiling by her wrists. She was certain that there would be some difficult bruises to hide later but that was the least of her concerns at the moment.

“What you have is a pissed off college student. Who snatches someone from a library? Don’t you have any respect for my education?”

Something sharp poked her back causing her to hiss in pain.

“Now, now, I really do love Gotham State University and if it was game day, I wouldn’t dare step foot on our campus, Gothamite pride and all. But you my dear, well once I learned that you attended the school, I just had to stop by and say hello.”

His maniacal laughter would strike fear in the hearts of most, but honestly, she was just too pissed at this point to care.

“Okay, you said your piece, may I return to the library? I have a paper due at midnight tonight and I literally only have one paragraph finished.”

Another strike against her back felt hard enough to draw blood. The Joker was not in a joking mood tonight.

“Tsk, tsk, tsk, How rude of you to want to leave when you just arrived! You batbrats are all the same, always in a rush. That’s why Jason is my favorite little bird. He always makes time for me,” his dreamy sigh faded into a scowl and in one quick movement, he was face to face with Marinette, his hand forcing her to stare into his eyes, “At least he used to. With you in town, he never seeks me out anymore!”

Releasing her cheeks, he turned away in a mock sob, using the edge of his purple tie to wipe away his tears.

“Maybe it’s because you two have an abusive relationship. I mean who wants to seek out someone that beats the shit out of them all the time.”

Joker stroked his chin thoughtfully as if her words carried some weight to them.

“Perhaps you’re right, maybe my last beating didn’t express enough love and admiration. How do you beat him to show him you love him?”

With a snap of his fingers, one of his men rushed forward to place a stool in front of him. Plopping down, he crossed his legs, motioning for her to speak.

“Uhm, well, I don’t beat him. Being my brother and all, we fight on the occasion, but if I want him to know I love him, I bake his favorite sweets or surprise him with a visit to his work.”

“Ah ha! That’s what I have to do! I got too reliant on my good old friend seeking me out, but maybe every once in a while I should seek him out!”

“Wait, that’s not really-” She couldn't finish her sentence as a crackle of electricity echoed through the warehouse. Her breathing was labored as she slowly began to come to terms with her situation.

“You know little batbug, you are slowly becoming a second favorite of mine. Of course, none of you could ever replace Batsy himself, but I would be lying to myself if I wasn’t fond of you and my Jason.”

If this was how he treated his favorites, Marinette was terrified to think of what Tim or Damian would go through if they were in her place right now. As he continued his monologue of the highs and lows of his and Jason's great relationship, Marinette took the time to take stock of her options.

There were ten men in total, more than likely at least five more outside posting guard. Fifteen wouldn’t be too hard, but there was one wildcard she couldn’t account for. Joker hardly ever accepted a fight that he wouldn’t believe to be fun and if she was honest, she couldn’t figure if he would jump in or not.

Tikki had already been working at the ropes holding her wrists, it was mere moments before they snapped, the only thing that stood in her way was that clown.

“-anywho, I suppose it’s time to go pay Jason a visit. Boys, leave this one alive. I like her.”

There was a slight groan of annoyance that sprinkled throughout the room.

Now was her time. The minute Joker stepped foot outside of the warehouse, she would be able to escape with almost no effort. As the doors slid open, Marinette nodded to Tikki to chew through the last rope.

“Where is she?” A frantic voice spilled through the front door causing Marinette’s eyes to snap into focus.

Several guns were trained on Jason as he gripped the front of Joker’s suit, his fist curled and ready to strike.

He came for her.

It wasn’t that she had any doubt, but she figured that her emergency tracker hadn’t sounded after seeing the response time from the team. As she dropped softly to her feet, Marinette slammed her elbow into the nearest man’s neck, gripping his gun as he dropped to the ground.

A few guns shifted from Jason to Marinette, seemingly unsure who was the bigger danger at this point.

“Oh Jason, I knew you cared. Marinette said I might have to seek you out, but that’s just not true is it. You always find your way back to me.”

His laughter was infuriating and Marinette could tell Jason was seeing red. If she didn’t get them out of there in the next few minutes, there was no telling if she could stop him from murdering the clown in front of him.

“You stupid clown, I could care less if you attack me, but you leave her out of this you understand?”

The Joker shook his head, a small giggle escaping his lips as he waved his men to stand down.

“Leave her out of this? Oh Jason, batbug there has become one of my new favorites. But don’t you worry, you’re still number one in my book.”

Marinette felt a shiver throughout her body at the sound of the growl that emitted from Jason.

“Jason, let's just leave. This isn’t a fight for today.”

There was no response as he and the Joker remained locked in an invisible argument, neither budging at the sound of her voice. Taking a step closer, she kept her gun trained on the clown, her eyes scanning the other men for any sudden movements. Instead of fighting her, they parted to allow her to get closer, all of them feeling equally confused as her.

Lowering her gun for a brief moment, she reached out to place a gentle hand on Jason’s shoulder.

“Jason, not today.”

She felt the tension in his body melting under her touch as he loosened his grip in the Joker’s suit. With one last glance, Jason dropped the man to the floor, turning to pull Marinette into a tight hug.

“Your stupid tracker needs an update. Tim could only place it near this area and it took me entirely too long to get here.”

Marinette winced under his tight grip, the realization of her wounds finally hitting her. Pulling back, she nodded to Jason as they both moved to walk out the door.

The sound of several guns switching off safeties echoed, causing them both to stop in their tracks.

“Joker, let us go.”

Her eyes met his as he lifted himself from the floor, brushing off the imaginary dust he had acquired. There was a certain glint in those eyes that screamed danger to her. They both shared a mutual understanding that he knew far too much and that he could attack whenever he wanted. This advantage seemed to please him as he nodded, motioning for his men to stand down once more.

“Batbug is right, this would be no fun if the two of you were dead. So many interesting possibilities for the future, it’s so exhilarating.”

The sound of his laughter stayed with her even after they were blocks away from the warehouse.

“Batman was right behind me, I’m sure he’ll get there before they have time to clear out.”

Marinette nodded absentmindedly as Jason pulled them into the nearest ally. As gently as possible, he lifted the back of her shirt to exam the wounds. Letting out a low whistle, he began to patch them one by one, the stinging of antiseptic cutting just as deeply as the wounds had.

“Mari, what were you doing before that clown kidnapped you? It doesn’t look you struggled much, there only seems to be torture wounds.”

Marinette’s eyes widened as she suddenly remembered.

“Jason, we have to get back to the library! My paper is due at midnight! That idiot snapped me while I was writing, I only have one paragraph done and I don’t even know if it saved.”

Jason struggled to bite back the laughter that was fighting to escape.

“You know Marinette, this is what you get for waiting to the last minute. Don’t you know by now that there is a fair chance of getting kidnapped while you’re trying to do school work?”

Marinette reached backward swinging blindly as Jason’s laughter finally bellowed through. As he pulled her shirt back down into position, Marinette turned to give him one last hug before she took off into the night.

Jason and Tikki shared a look. Together, they took off after her, giggling and calling after her as they raced through Gotham’s streets. All in all, it really was just another average night in Gotham City.

Permanent Tag List:

@ash-amg @rebecarojas07 @heaven428 @long-lost-peace @thequeenofpotatoeunicornss @moongoddesskiana @nach0ava @iamablinkmarvelarmy @seraphkitty @clumsy-owl-4178 @pawsitivelymiraculous @mialuvscats @leagrey @smolplantmum @animegirlweeb @glitterflowercat

#jasonette #maribat #marinette dupain cheng

251 notes · View notes

brokentoys · 2 years

Text

Okay, since two lovely people were asking (y’know who you are!) So, I will write as to why they’re the most perfect ship, or at least one of them, lol!

THE GOOD;

They’re both childish. Seriously, Harley loves cartoons, toys, and tends to act silly. Eddie is also childish, in his own ways. He throws tantrums when he doesn’t get what he wants, and then he has this childish need for attention and validation. Also has shown in Ark Knight, he has a love for toys as he DOES happen to have two in his room... which is UNDERNEATH the orphanage... so there will be no way there’d happen to be two toys there, unless Eddie picked them for himself. This is an unused room which is cut from the game, and can be accessed through cheats.

They’re both abuse victims. Harley was abused by her boyfriend, Eddie was abused by his parents. In the Suey Side Skwad film, Harley is shown killing a potential BF because he showed red flags. Eddie? Has killed or harmed older men in the comics because they’re abusive, or mistreated him, and Eddie had sworn to never let that happen to him again. They both can understand each other because of this, but they also PARALLEL each other.

They’ve both been on the good side - considering certain canons, Eddie was part of the GCPD, and Harley was a psychiatrist. Wanting to help the mentally ill, and Eddie wanting to do something about justice, yet they both went astray from the side of good. Both have also redeemed themselves at one point in the comics.

They’re both very intelligent - Harley being a doctor, and Eddie being a genius.

Harley and Eddie have been shown to be... VERY into relationships. (Eddie has been shown to fall in love INSTANTLY in comics, as well as doing ANYTHING for his lover - if it meant hurting his own men, or killing people. Harley is pretty much the exact same.)

Eddie literally complimented Harley when he first met her. FR. He compared her intelligence of his own by saying great minds think alike. This may seem minor, but from EDDIE??? That is a MAJOR compliment. He sees himself as the smartest man on earth... so thinking Harley in comparable to HIS INTELLIGENCE?? Yeah...

And although Harley insulted him at first... she later starts admitting how much fun he is.

They share the same energy, they even look back at this moment with laughs in a later comic...

Harley has also expressed genuine concern for Eddie, even checking up on him. And not only this, Eddie had accepted mere cents from Harley for a case (when he was a P.I.) Reminder: Eddie had charged Bruce LITERAL THOUSANDS for a case. And he often overcharged people. But with Harley??? He accepted MERE CENTS.

THE BAD (which is also good!)

In Sirens, it showed the rockiness in their relationship, which actually made it more compelling, and I’ll explain why. Like Ed’s jealousy - when he says this about finding Harley...

At first, he was reluctant to find her, because Eddie didn’t think it was that seriously. Because his jealousy got in the way. He’s mad because she disappears at months at a time, not bothering to tell him why or how. Eddie’s jealousy got in the way of helping Harley, but it was understandable. And it was understandable why Harley disappeared. Eddie is clearly hurt because remember, Eddie was literally abused by a child - and very neglected. This caused him to feel he was nothing, which made him develop this obsession with receiving love and validation from EVERYONE, getting attention from EVERYONE. So when someone who he LOVES abandons him...? Of COURSE, that’s going to hurt... and it’s going to hurt BAD. But also Harley being in an abusive relationship, Eddie fails to see why she’d return.

However, remember... in the end of this comic, Eddie pulls through for Harley.

Harley has also, inadvertently, hurt Eddie the same way Joker has hurt her. When she went along with the Sirens’ plan to use Eddie as a patsy to bait a killer. They used Eddie for their own gain, in a way, even if they didn’t intend to. But Harley seemed the most concerned, often saying how she feels bad for him, and how he trusted them. It gave me the panel which hurt me the MOST.

“I could see the hurt in Harley’s eyes, though I doubt she looked THAT HARD to see it in mine...” Even though, Harley is... clearly upset... worried, even...

And I think she does understand why he’s hurt... given she expressed how bad she felt for him. I will NEVER forgive Dee Cee for NOT expanding on this, because I feel Harley would’ve made it up to Eddie. BUT ANYWAY--

Why is this good? Because remember, Harley and Eddie AREN’T a conventional couple. They’re very broken people with broken lives. They’ve been abused, and they don’t know what love really is. They love each other dearly, but are still prone to hurt each other because of how they were raised, or conditioned. This? Makes them so compelling... because they may hurt each other, but together, they can become better people. And unlike Joker - it’s never intentional harm. It’s just - ... it’s a misunderstanding, or they’re scared.

Because a story needs BOTH good moments, and conflicts. Harley and Eddie has BOTH of that, as well as having so much in common. And it makes it interesting, and makes you wanting to read it more. Makes you root for them. I really do think they’re one of the best ships because of all these dynamics.

#( 🧩 ✧ INFERIOR PUPPETEER ✧ | OOC )#// pls read bc goddamn i wrote a lotta this but then... my stupid computer #// lost a lot of it for me #// so spent a lot of time writing this ;;#// i feel there is MORE that i am forgetting #diamondcladclown #stvtistics #// 'cos they're the mvps that asked for more so i'm taggin them 💚💚💚

7 notes · View notes

patchesthegothictramp · 4 years

Text

Part 3 of P5R review: Akechi

Next up, my favourite part: Akechi! Also mostly likely the last part since I don’t think I missed anything else. Feel free to hit me up though if you’re wondering about anything I haven’t mentioned

Akechi was undoubtedly, and still is, persona 5’s most hotly debated character. From what I’ve been seeing people who even loathed Akechi are starting to become fans of him, or at least don’t hate him anymore. Royal expands on his character in a way that fans of his love because it confirmed so many of their suspicions of what he’s really like but also just adds more depth to him. I could even understand why people who played vanilla only saw him as ‘boy takes things too far cos daddy issues’ cos, well, without deeper analysis that is what atlus was presenting. There was a lot more to his character in vanilla but I don’t blame people not looking into him because what they saw on the surface didn’t interest them enough... though that being said the abuse and torment given to his fans was super uncalled for.

Let’s start with his confidant and take it from there- it’s special, it’s fun, it’s emotional and it’s so layered I could watch it a million times and I’d probably still miss something from it. It’s special because it’s the only confidant where Ren just gets to hang out with someone, with nothing expected in return. All Akechi wants is a conversation and to play billiards with him. All of the other confidants want your help in something, want you to solve their issues without any regard for what they could do for you in return. Of course when Ren’s in jail they help him out then but it’s only when he’s facing the worst-case scenario. Interestingly enough, Akechi goes to jail for Ren at the first opportunity he gets and in that world none of your confidants ever return the favour of Ren changing their lives. To nail this point further, his confidant does have some requirements for social stats, but it’s the only instance where it’s made clear that it’s for Ren’s own comfort, not for someone else’s. Akechi says he needs someone charming and knowledgeable because he’s genuinely concerned for the abuse Ren might get if his fans didn’t consider him worthy of their idol’s presence.

It’s unexpectedly fun too, you’d think that an Akechi confidant would be just about rivalry or him talking to you about his Tragic Backstory but you get quite a few moments which are just… fun. The first one has them playing billiards and uncovering that he’s ambidextrous, and while it is a set up for their rivalry it’s still just them playing billiards like regular teenagers would. There’s the café date where silliness ensues and funnily enough you end up finding out more about Ren in that interaction than you do Akechi; about how Ren too hides from the public and has his own mask (glasses) that help him cover up who he really is.

But of course, it’s also emotional, like the bathhouse scene where you finally get to know more about Akechi’s past that’s not just a random info dump, there’s him clearly crying for help in the final billiards rank where he talks about the game as if it were his own life and even asks you if you’d help him (even though he doesn’t let you help regardless of what you say).

Term 3 Akechi… well he’s everything I hoped he would be. Sarcastic, sardonic and all around Done With This Shit. He never holds back anymore, both on the battlefield and real life and he doesn’t care what the Thieves or anyone else thinks of him anymore. He’s done with the detective mask and the charade and can finally be himself for once, and I absolutely love it. He’s gone from a character I can only theorise about being rude in my writing to one who’s everything I hoped for and so much more.

Now to the shuake stuff: Oh my god its so gay.

Yes a lot of it is regular friendship stuff but also if you can’t be friends with your boyfriend then that’s just casual sex, not a relationship. And I’m not talking about the bathhouse scene. Actually, what’s interesting is what happens after which is when Akechi specifically says that no ones ever seen that part of him, Ren’s the only person who he’s been able to open up to like that. There’s the jazz club, which you find out later is a special place for Akechi to the point that the owner says he’s never brought anyone else there. Ren is clearly special in Akechi’s eyes, he’s the one person he can be around and be his true self.

You even see it in term 3 when he’s sarcastic and sardonic around Ren but still continues to put up a façade around human Morgana, Futaba, Sojiro Wakaba and later Kasumi, at least until they see him for who he really is inside the palace and he’s forced to show his true self. The writers make that so obvious that Akechi’s face visibly changes when he’s talking to Ren and when he’s talking to everyone else.

And Akechi is equally special to Ren. Ren doesn’t wish for his criminal record to disappear or to be a Phantom Thief again, he wishes to keep the promise he made to Akechi even with the knowledge that the other was going to kill him. We’ve seen him mourn Akechi’s death in p5a proof of justice- the OVA that was so clearly meant to set up royal considering how many similarities it had with that more so than the original game. For a silent protagonist and a self-insert Ren shows more feelings towards Akechi than he does any other character.

Even down to their showtime, everyone else has these elaborate plans that they have to explain to each other then to Ren and hope that the wishing star will make their wish come true and yet Akechi and Ren are just able to improvise it completely on the spot, staying completely in sync. Interestingly enough if you compare it to Joker’s only other one- Sumire’s, she’s leading him into the showtime, she’s the one who has to have him follow her, but with Akechi, he’s equal, they’re in sync, all it takes is Ren shouting ‘Crow!’ for him to jump at the enemy without further instruction. Just as their showtime says, they’re two sides of the same coin.

There’s a reason that somehow, despite never having spoken about Akechi to him, Maruki knows that’s what Ren’s biggest wish would be, he knows that it’s the only way he might be able to stop Ren and the Thieves from infiltrating the palace, and in one alternative, the dream ending, it is enough for him to dangle Akechi’s life in front of him for Ren to fold. He insists Akechi’s life isn’t just something small that he can sacrifice once again.

Our Light is even further proof of it, it’s a love song, not to Kasumi, or not from her, it could clearly not be more obvious that’s it’s from Ren to Akechi. The song describes missing someone who’s gone in such a romantic way that seeing it as Sumire to Kasumi is borderline incestuous, and seeing it as Ren to Sumire or vice versa makes no sense either since they’re just a train ride away and even speak about seeing each other soon. It’s unlikely to be about anyone else either since yeah, Ren can just go and visit them any time and for that to be the ending song of a remake where the only character who’s made more important than he was previously is Akechi. It wouldn’t make sense for the song to be about that one girl out of 10 that you can romance but doesn’t really change the plot as significantly as he does.

In this way, P5R does a great job of showing, not telling. There are frequent comparisons of Maruki and Rumi’s situation to Ren’s and Akechi’s (not direct ones but it’s obvious the two are similar) and if they were a het couple that romance would be unquestionable. At the end of the day, persona is and always will be a game about choice where the protagonist is mostly a self-insert which is why they’ve never been able to outright say ‘this is the canon romance route’ but honestly, if it were to be anyone, it’s so painfully clear it’s Akechi.

Especially when you remember the director’s words of this being a love triangle. We know Sumire has a crush on Ren but doesn’t seem to have an interest in Akechi and outside of being a possible conversation partner, Akechi clearly isn’t interested in Sumire. So then if they’re a love triangle the only logical conclusion is that they’re both vying for Ren’s affection. From Ren’s perspective, the player can choose if he will romance Sumire but regardless of what Ren says to Sumire, he always ends up having Akechi’s life dangled before his eyes and can always choose to have him by his side.

TL;DR Goro Feral, Shuake Canon

#patches plays p5r #p5r spoilers #p5r #persona #akechi goro #goro akechi #ren amamiya #akira kurusu #joker #crow #shuake #akeshu

441 notes · View notes

akechicrimes · 4 years

Note

You have the best takes and I was wondering what an actual Akechi redemption would look like? Sending him to prison is a weird take I've seen considering the themes of power, corruption, and manipulation of youth, and quite frankly it's just boring and lazy from a plot/character standpoint. I imagine the first step would be talking to Futaba and Haru (and others who were affected by his actions) but I'm not sure what would happen after that.

ok firstly THANKS i do my best yellin into the tunglr void

second “Sending him to prison is a weird take I’ve seen considering the themes of power, corruption, and manipulation of youth, and quite frankly it’s just boring and lazy from a plot/character standpoint” is the SEXIEST sentence ive ever read re: goro and thank you for putting these words in this particular order i want it framed, truly it makes zero sense whatsoever

third thanks for this super duper cool question because weirdly enough i havent…………….. really thought about it before??? ive seen more than a few really interesting goro redemption arc fics but if i were gonna do one myself………………….. hmmmmmm

ok ok ok ok ok ok i will. do my best. big psuedo revisionist fanfic under cut

a redemption arc needs to address the wrongs and hurts that he’s done, as well as just generally other noxious junk. to rattle them off so we know what we’re working with, he

killed wakaba (unknown circumstances), which hurt futaba

killed okumura, which hurt haru

assisted shido in his rise to power

assisted an unknown number of other douchebags like shido in their rise to power

killed an unknown number of other douchebags

created psychotic breakdowns, involving casualties and potentially some deaths

was generally a shit on live television

lied to sae.

betrayed joker.

and from there he needs to address these in such a way that his character grows and is better for it.

simultaneously i think it’s important to weigh the opposite issues, which are the ways that akechi is either right or has a valid point, the ways that akechi has presumably been mistreated/abused by people around him, and just generally following through on seeing akechi become happier and healthier for having gone through a redemption arc. in no particular order, he:

apparently desperately craves approval/recognition from others, but not in a productive way (sorry the TV audience does not actually love you lmao!!!!!!!)

has some kind of complicated relationship with shido to say the fuckign LEAST, and i think addressing that angle of shido’s abuse is important

really suffers from his inability to be honest with just about anyone; how deeply he’s hidden his true self has not only exacerbated his loneliness, but it’s done so in a way that i think should be really understandable to any one of the thieves, who also need to hide their true selves and feelings when in public

is 100000% correct about how much shido should eat shit and die

does have a valid point about how dangerous the phantom thieves are, and, in irony of all ironies, probably is a good critic and moral barometer to make sure joker doesn’t go over any lines

is canonically the character who is most unafraid to go against joker’s orders

is smart all absolute FUCK while maintaining an attitude of FUCK COPS

so with all that in mind:

i’d say, the engine room confrontation happens as SOON as they enter shido’s palace. not necessarily specifically in the engine room, but that confrontation happens off the bat. the phantom thieves take two steps into shido’s palace and find that they can’t go anywhere–everything’s locked, or off limits, and the whole place is under more surveillance than any palace they’ve ever seen. sojiro was right when he said that shido’s paranoid as fuck.

they try to leave the palace for the day to regroup, and akechi’s there like a guard dog ready to defend shido’s psyche. why wouldn’t he be? he must have planned that perhaps the thieves would retaliate like this, whether or not joker was alive.

that whole very embarrassing breakdown happens. haru and futaba already canonically seem in favor of akechi rejoining the team, so although haru does say she won’t forgive akechi, i do think that doesn’t need to be at odds with them being in favor of him working with the team.

so, say, akechi’s on the verge of being convinced to work with the team, and he’s not necessarily all in on this whole “being alive” thing, and he’s not super convinced that he deserves redemption, but the phantom thieves really really really insisted, because the phantom thieves can and do change hearts, even when they’re not in palaces, and they’ve just changed akechi’s.

cognitive akechi doesn’t show up because i’m using him later.

first thing: akechi, haru, and futaba need to have a talk, which is actually pretty easy and not even irrelevant. go through shido’s palace, get the letters of rec, everyone recognizes akechi. like haru in okumura’s palace, akechi’s practically their ticket into half the ship.

getting the letters of rec naturally brings up okumura and wakaba, imo, because it hammers home that these sorts of scumbags are the kinds of people that akechi was killing. and also that this is the kind of scumbag that okumura was, in life. have haru go through the five stages of grief all over again, like she did back in okumura’s palace, realizing that her father kills his own employees for the first time. have her struggle all over again to reconcile the father she loves with the father who died with the father who murdered and exploited and drove his employees to the brink of death. have akechi face that even the people he killed were people, too.

depending on your interpretation of wakaba, she was either just as corrupt OR she was genuinely a nice woman, but that can be addressed in a bunch of ways–akechi didnt know what he was doing at the time, or he totally did but didnt feel like he had any other choice–either way, some sort of contextualization of wakaba’s role in shido’s conspiracy needs to be unearthed.

say futaba wants to know what her mother was like. say she asks akechi because akechi knew her, maybe knew wakaba better than futaba ever did, because futaba was young and also because futaba never spent a few days literally crawling through her mother’s psyche like akechi did. make akechi tell futaba about the woman he killed with his own mouth. maybe he tells her only the good parts. maybe futaba MAKES him tell her the bad parts. maybe futaba thanks him for it, and akechi figures out that an apology could never be enough.

the point, basically, is to use shido’s palace to have haru, futaba, and akechi come to terms with each other. forgiveness isnt necessarily the point–understanding is more important. haru and futaba come to understand how and why akechi did what he did, while akechi has to sit through several weeks of looking his victims in the eyeballs.

for extra bonus points of making akechi look his victims in the eyeballs, personally i think that futaba would be the most supportive of all the phantom thieves of akechi turning over a new leaf. she canonically tells him that “it doesn’t matter where you start over” and relates his struggles to her struggle to turn her own life around, and honestly i think sympathy would fuck akechi up the most.

meanwhile, in the real world, capitalize on akechi’s position: if he’s deep in shido’s conspiracy, it really only makes sense that akechi could locate the people they need rec letters from in the real world, and use that to find their cognitive equivalent in shido’s palace. show me akechi’s relationship with shido, founded on akechi trying to appease shido and trying to avoid shido’s wrath simultaneously.

maybe shido’s closing in on the phantom thieves in the real world. he suspects that things haven’t gone according to plan. make use of the fact that shido trusts (to an extent) akechi’s word, and have akechi cover for the phantom thieves in the real world.

maybe show me shido actively manipulating akechi with praise. show me the greys of that relationship, like how we saw madarame treat yusuke well, or saw sae at her best and worst with makoto. show me how difficult it is for akechi to continue to help the phantom thieves even while actively engaging with his own abuser.

make akechi a traitor to shido. being a traitor was his role, wasn’t it? to betray the thieves? just have him betray shido back. he’s good at being a traitor, isn’t he? akechi probably volunteers himself for the role. let him capitalize on his ability to lie and outsmart those around him. let him make it up to joker in the only way that akechi feels he can: even more lying.

get all the rec letters. akechi himself hands shido the calling card. confront shido–cognitive akechi is there and just as much of a bitch as always. show me how much disdain shido has for akechi, how little he thinks of akechi, how nasty he is–and how blindly adoring cognitive akechi is in return. it’s gross as all hell, but it’s a final nail in the coffin to haru and futaba’s grieving process, even forms some sort of solidarity.

there’s half a second where akechi is in the position to kill shido. shido’s shadow is down, akechi’s got a gun, he could pull the trigger before anyone could stop him. futaba tells him not to.

haru tells him that he can kill shido if he wants to.

everyone’s like HARU??? HELLO???? but haru says, as far as i’m concerned, this man is just as much my father’s murderer as akechi-kun is. if you want to, i won’t stop you. but i know that it’s harder to survive than it is to die, too.

akechi does not kill shido. they steal shido’s treasure and return to the real world.

at this point in the canon plot, yaldabaoth starts to happen really fast, but bear with me for five seconds–bring sae back on the scene. shido confesses, and akechi’s reputation goes up in smoke. people call him a fraud, people won’t stop talking about shido being his dad, akechi’s name gets dragged through the mud worse than back when the PT were at their most popular.

sae takes up prosecuting shido’s case, and akechi can’t avoid her forever when he’s supposedly a key witness. sae says, i’m going to give you one chance to explain yourself. you lied to him, you tricked me, you pretended to be my partner all that time and then ran rings around me. talk.

so akechi explains himself, even though half that stuff isnt permissible in court. he doesn’t butter her up and he doesn’t use his cutesy prince mask, and for the first time sae sees him as he really is. and sae says, those are some pretty serious offenses, akechi, what are you going to do now?

akechi’s just gone through that whole bonding session with haru and futaba, during which akechi had to realize, ah, shit, i fucked over the lives of these two very nice girls and even inflicted the same trauma that i myself went through onto other people. so akechi tells sae, well obviously i don’t fucking know, i dont have a career, i might be expelled, and i’ve killed a shitload of people and there’s no way that i can make up for that. but if i could, i would want to do something to right the wrongs that i did–i’d want to address the murders i committed, and maybe do something to fix it.

sae says, you’re smart as all hell, what you’ve done is irrevocable, you know your way around the police and its corruption, you’re willing to do better and you know how hard doing better is going to be. i’m the same way. i might not have killed anyone, but i’ve ruined the lives of so many people in the name of my career and a distorted sense of justice. if you want to do better, i could use a person like you. what do you say that when this case is over, we become partners for real, this time?

akechi says, but sae-san, what about your reputation, what about your career, wouldn’t it be bad to have a fraud like me by your side?

sae says, i didnt have you as a partner the first time around because you were stupid. use your head, make it work, and maybe i’ll buy you sushi off the conveyor belt someday.

case number one is prosecuting the shit out of shido. sae said they’d be partners after akechi is no longer a key witness, but at this point, being a key witness is basically like being her assistant. sae’s there every step of the way while akechi gets shoved through the public wringer. i say, make him lose all his public fame and reputation and more, everything that he thought he wanted, and he come out with sae’s respect, akira’s support, and the phantom thieves on his side.

the trial starts to stall because of yaldabaoth’s influence, which then brings us to that whole reveal about yaldabaoth using akechi as well for yaldo’s own ends. yaldabaoth offers the p5 vanilla bad end, in which the phantom thieves continue on and become incredibly famous and eliminate most crime because they just change the hearts of anyone who does anything halfway wrong.

i say, let the thieves deliberate on that one. all of them, not just joker. it’s not actually a very bad deal, necessarily; it’s just vaguely skeevy and authoritarian. let’s say, akechi is the biggest opposer, and points out that if akira goes down that route, akira will be doing exactly the same thing akechi did for so long–using his power for his own self-satisfaction, power unchecked and out of control. let akechi use the fact that he’s akira’s “rival” and outspoken critic to good use. akira tells yaldo where he can stick it.

fight yaldabaoth, win. sae takes akira into custody. akechi makes good on his deal with sae, and both of them work together to use akechi’s testimony, akira’s testimony, and shido’s testimony to nail shido and clear akira’s name.

from there, flash forward to the epilogue in the same way that it happens in canon, except akechi is now sae’s lackey and she’s overseeing his efforts to undo whatever damage he did to all the nameless people he’s hurt over the years. she’s going to become a defense attorney, and akechi’s probably going to become her assistant and later paralegal. both of them are committed to reforming the justice system for the better and addressing their past wrongs.

im actually big fucking mad at how little i had to change about persona 5 canon to make this redemption arc work. @ persona 5 royal meet me in the pit.

#mine #meta #it's not really meta but lmao #Anonymous

237 notes · View notes

teentitanimals · 4 years

Text

im working on a BIG Batfamily project, and WOW have i realized how much harder this is gonna be than i first thought it was... for now, have an excerpt- or, rather, Selina Kyle’s information card of the project :) im pretty proud of this! information and story subject to change

Selina Kyle-Wayne

birth name: Selina Calabrese

Main Alias: Catwoman

Other Aliases: Catbird (in Gothtopia), The Cat, The Cat Burglar, Irena Dubrovna

Current Age: ~46 (When first CW; 21. When had HK; 36. Retires CW; ~55. At death; ~70.)

Birthdate: March 14th (Alternatively; March 31st)

Hair Color: Black

Hair Length: Short

Eye Color: Green

Race/Ethnic/Skin Color: Half-Cuban; Possibly Italian, Scottish, and/or Latina descendant (White)

Sexuality: Bisexual

Gender: Female (She/her)

Height: ~5’11” (Tall)

Weight: ~146lbs (Sorta Heavy)

Build: Slender, Curvy

Biological Parents: Maria Kyle, Rex Calabrese

Step-Father: Brian Kyle

Alleged Father: Carmine Falcone

Biological Sister: Magdalene “Maggie” Kyle-Burton

Biological Half-Brother: Aiden Mason

Brother-in-Law: Simon Burton

Biological Cousins: Nick Calabrese, Antonia Calabrese

Alleged Siblings: Sofia Falcone, Alberto Falcone, Mario Falcone

Surrogative Sister: Holly Robinson

Ex-Lovers: Sam Bradley Jr., Eiko Hasigawa, Moreland McShane

Husband: Bruce Wayne

Parents-in-Law: Thomas Wayne, Martha Wayne

Siblings-in-Law: Thomas Wayne Jr. (On Earth-3), Rochelle Wayne (in Elseworlds: Reign of Terror)

Surrogative Father-in-Law: Alfred Pennyworth

Surrogative Sister-in-Law: Julia Pennyworth

Cousins-in-Law: Kate Kane, Beth Kane, Bette Kane

Surrogate Daughter: Arizona

Biological Children: Helena Kyle, Helena Wayne (from Earth-2)*, “Aion” Wayne (In Batman in Bethlehem)

*(HC; Helena is legally her adopted daughter on Earth-1.)

Step-Children: Damian Wayne, Athanasia al Ghul, The Heretic (clone of DW), Tallant Wayne (clone of DW), Alina Wayne (maybe), Bruce Wayne Jr. (On Earth-3839), Dick Grayson, Lance Bruner, Jason Todd, Tim Drake, Cass Cain, Duke Thomas (maybe), Terry McGinnis, Matt McGinnis

Daughters-in-Law: Koriand’r, Dana Tan

Step-Grandchildren: Mar'i Grayson, Jake Grayson, John Grayson II (On Earth-2), Sasha Todd, Clark Wayne (On Earth-3839)

Step-Great-Granddaughters: Lois Wayne (On Earth-3839), Lara Wayne (On Earth-3839)

Catwoman Run: ~34 years

Succeeded By: Eiko Hasigawa, Holly Robinson, (First Name N/A) Black

Wikipedia. Batman Wiki. DC Database. DCAMU. Animated Series. Comic Vine.

(tw; self-harm, suicide, child abuse, illegal prostitution, drug addiction, sexual abuse, death)

Selina Calabrese was born to Rex Calabrese and Maria Calabrese with a sister two years older than her named Magdalene Calabrese. When Selina was very young, her mother escaped from Rex, also known as The Lion, leader of the Calabrese Crime Family, and became the husband to Brian Kyle, legally changing all their names to Maria Kyle, Maggie Kyle, and Selina Kyle. Maria had a son with him, Aiden Kyle. Their relationship was not healthy, with Maria being very suicidal and Brian being drunk and abusive. He would often yell at and harm Maria and her kids, and Maria, although she loved her kids, was distant, more often spending time with her cats. One day, Selina came home from school to find her mother dead in the tub, having cut her wrists until she bled out. A year later, Brian died from alcohol poisoning, and Selina called the police, packed her bags and ran away. Maggie and Aiden were taken to the orphanage, and Aiden, being fairly young, was almost immediately adopted by a family, where his name was changed to Aiden Mason. His contact with his half-sisters was cut off, although he would eventually seek them out as an older teen and young adult. Maggie was adopted after a few months, and was raised very religiously. She kept in contact with Selina best she could.

On the streets, Selina would steal food, clothing and other material from grocery stores. She was eventually caught and put in the orphanage. She acted out a lot, causing her to be sent to Juvenile Hall. When she turned age 13, she was sent back to the orphanage. There, she realized the place was embezzling money. To make sure she never told anyone, they put her in a bag and dropped her in a river. Selina managed to escape, and then stole documentary proof of their embezzlement to give to the police, some money for herself, and her own files in hopes of reuniting with her brother or sister. Instead, she found out that Brian was not her birth father, and that her father was an unknown mobster man. Selina continued living on the streets, stealing food and jewelry to meet her own, as the money she stole would not last forever. She would be taken in by an old thief gang leader named Mama Fortuna, who treated the kids under her care like slaves. Eventually, Selina would run away with a friend from the gang named Sylvia. They could not survive on their own and always had a shortage of money, and Sylvia took up prostitution to support them both, and grew to hate Selina for it. They parted ways.

When Selina was 17, she began illegally working as a prostitute under an abusive pimp named Stan. She stumbled upon a 13-year-old Holly Robinson who was being sexually abused by a cop. Selina beat the cop up, inspiring Holly who said that was the first time anybody had shown her she could fight back. The two became roommates. To pay for living expenses and food, Selina continued stealing, and Holly eventually became an illegal prostitute too when she was 16, despite Selina being against it. Her underage status resulted in Stan getting into a fight with a drifter, who, unbeknownst to them, was Bruce Wayne in disguise. A few weeks later, Holly would wake Selina up to show her Batman, still new and fresh, beating up corrupt police officer and former Commissioner Branden. Selina, inspired by how someone can don a costume and have everyone either be happy or terrified to see him that she can do the same too, would confront and fight Stan about his abuse, officially having her and Holly quit prostitution. She spent money to buy an expensive costume- her first Catwoman costume. She robbed a local store, and one of the security guards called her “Catwoman”, which she liked and chose to be her name. Stan, wanting revenge on Selina and Holly for quitting, kidnaps Maggie. After a few days, Selina locates him, saves her sister, and beats him to death in a rage as Catwoman. Selina informs Maggie of her new persona, who disagrees heavily, especially seeing as she killed a man, but promises to keep quiet.

The police investigate Selina and Holly, and one police officer sexually harasses Holly. Enraged, Selina went out as Catwoman with intent to kill him, but Batman intervened and made her see how her anger blinded her. Terrified she was a danger to Holly, she sent Holly to live in a convent with Maggie, who was a nun (although she would later give up her nunage to marry her husband, Simon Burton). Catwoman would begin her crime life properly, crossing paths with the likes of the Joker, the Riddler, Poison Ivy, and others, and flirting with Batman, of course. While Selina continued on to be a thief as Catwoman for the next few years, Holly felt she did not fit in the convent, and eventually found herself back on the streets. She got addicted to drugs and went back into prostitution.

While Holly was away, Selina temporarily got a new roommate, a young blonde girl nicknamed Arizona who reminded Selina a lot of Holly. She took her under her wing, and Arizona acted like her sidekick for a while, before she eventually found her own feeting and started a life on her own. She still kept close contact with Selina, though.

After five years, a gang leader named Bone killed a close friend of Selina’s named Lola MacIntire, who knew Selina was Catwoman and let her crash at her place after her apartment was destroyed. Bone wanted revenge after Catwoman had stolen from him. This devastated Selina, who viewed it as completely her fault. At Lola’s funeral, Selina encountered her old friend, Gwen Altamont, and the two began working together. Catwoman stole cars for Gwen, and encountered a metahuman thief named Spark while on the job. Catwoman convinces Gwen to let her work with Spark, and the two plan to rob Penguin of the fifth dagger they need to complete a set of valuable knives. Catwoman stakes out at the restaurant Penguin likes to eat at a day before he would be there, which Spark questions why they are doing so a day before. Catwoman notices a young hooker getting tranquilized and dragged into a van. Catwoman leaps into action, Spark soon following. They save the girl, and, after questioning local prostitutes, find out there have been multiple kidnappings and murders like this. Catwoman investigates and plans to defeat the kidnappers. After failing to stop a kidnapper in the act, Catwoman contacts Detective Carlos Alvarez, a detective who has been chasing her tail but that she knows is a genuinely good cop, for help. They track the kidnapper, Matilda Mathis aka Dollhouse, the daughter of Dollmaker, to a mansion. Catwoman fights Dollhouse, but Batman interrupts their fight, allowing both to escape. Catwoman questions her ability to be a vigilante, knowing she’s a better thief.

After those series of murders to other prostitutes, Holly quits being a prostitute and heads to her and Selina’s old apartment. She is pleasantly surprised to find Selina lived there after the destruction of her other apartment, and the two reunited. Holly began working as a spy of sorts for Catwoman, gathering information of what was happening on the streets of East End. Although she eventually stopped taking drugs after living with Selina for a few months, she felt concerned that she was still looking at the world through the eyes of a junkie to gather intel. During this time period, the Scarecrow releases a gas that makes everyone believe they are in a utopia- Gothtopia. There, Selina believed she was Catbird, partner to Batman. Where Batman could see glimpses of reality, Catbird just thought him delusional. While people who could see through the illusion questioned their sanity and committed suicide, Catbird began investigating a criminal named Steeljacket, who was also convinced their reality was an illusion. Steeljacket explained that the suit he was wearing kept him alive and he needed her thievery skills to get him the money to repair it. Catbird helped him, and the familiar adrenaline rush of a robbery made her remember her real identity of Catwoman. After Batman freed the city from Scarecrow’s toxin, Catwoman reminded him of how they shared both a partnership and a true romantic relationship in Gothtopia. Batman denied the extent of his romantic feelings, even though the toxin showed them both what they wanted to see.

A few years later, Black Mask, who held a vendetta against Catwoman, kidnapped her sister Maggie and Simon, killed Simon, and then forced Maggie to eat her husband’s eyes, driving her insane. Black Mask also kidnapped and beat Holly with the help of an old childhood friend of Catwoman, Sylvia. Catwoman kills Black Mask, Holly kills Sylvia, and they save Maggie, who is put in a psychiatric institute. Holly isolated herself and nearly fell back onto old habits. Selina decided Holly needed time to heal outside of Gotham City and needed proper training, so she sent Holly to a rural safehouse where she trained in hand-to-hand combat with Ted Grant. Selina and Slam Bradley, a detective friend of Selina’s, located Holly’s long lost brother Davey, and the two reunited.

Eventually, Black Mask was revived by a Black Lantern, and immediately sought out Maggie, threatening to kill her and anyone else Catwoman cared about. Catwoman, with the help of Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy, defeated Black Mask again. Maggie escaped, and no longer wanted anything to do with Selina, blaming her for her insane condition and Simon’s death, and believing Selina was possessed by a cat demon. Maggie sought out Sister Agatha to exorcise her sister, but when Maggie saw Agatha’s cat, she snapped and killed Agatha’s cat and then Agatha because she believed Agatha was in league with Selina’s cat demon. Maggie then searched through Agatha’s relics and tools, stumbling upon a supernatural substance in a container that warped Maggie’s sense of reality further. To Maggie, an angel was released and claimed it would help her destroy Selina’s cat demon. Maggie finds Selina and Harley Quinn and attacks them with heightened abilities. Harley refers to Maggie as “Sister Zero”, and then becomes possessed by the “angel”’s influence. Catwoman manages to get through to Harley, confusing her enough to escape Maggie’s control. Selina forces Maggie to escape, who starts to formulate a new plan to save her sister’s soul. The angel told her to team up with Azrael and Crusader during Gotham’s Judgement Day, which she does. Maggie believes she is her sister’s test of faith, which means either Selina will get cleansed of her cat demon, or Maggie will die. But in the end, when Maggie has a chance to end Selina’s life, she can’t bring herself to do it. Maggie ends up back in a psychiatric institute and starts to slowly heal, although sometimes Sister Zero breaks out.

Holly begins a relationship with a girl named Karon, who she moves into the apartment of. She also becomes the supervisor of a group of street kids known as the Alleytown Gang, training them to act like the spies and informants of Catwoman’s network. Unbeknownst to Holly, Selina had grown tired of seeing her role as Catwoman ruin her life over and over. Selina burned her suit, but would be forced to don it again after a woman named Roulette contacted her about a competition between thieves that threatened the lives of children. Catwoman got a new suit and raced to save the lives of the children. After competing in several rounds, she realized that there never were any real children in danger. Roulette had actually been hired by a man named Hunt Stone who wanted any evidence that connected his ancestors to a famous murder stolen and erased. Selina began sabotaging every aspect of her strictly regimented and planned out days, until Roulette was forced to declare her the winner of the Race of Thieves to make her stop. During this time where Selina went missing, Holly acted as Catwoman to keep other criminals at bay.

With Catwoman I back in action, Oracle asks Catwoman, Poison Ivy and Harley Quinn to keep an eye on Vicki Vale, who has evidence on the members of the Batfamily that need to be destroyed. Selina notices an artifact in Vicki’s possession that she had once stolen. It reminds her of the days when Batman used to chase her, and she reminisces on them. Her flashback is interrupted as Harley breaks into the room they were monitoring, wanting to get her hyenas back because they had stolen them from her. Vicki bolts out of the room, and they lose her trail, but Selina managed to get her phone number. She planted a fake call to lead Vicki out of her apartment, allowing Selina to break in and take pictures of her Batwall, which Batman and Oracle needed. Selina reminisces about her crime life.

When a mysterious malefactor came to Gotham with a yearlong plan to ruin Batman’s life, Catwoman began investigating into the turf war between the Penguin and newly returned mobster Carmine Falcone. She was captured by Falcone for causing him grief years ago and he nearly killed her, but Professor Pyg attacked Falcone, having a vendetta against him. Catwoman plans to kill Falcone, who she suspects might be her biological father, but before she can, Batman intervenes. She leaves Falcone and his mob to Batman, but sometime later while trying and failing to stop a deal to sell a baby snow leopard for its fur, a young girl locates Selina. She tells Selina that her father wanted her to attend a meeting in Blackgate Penitentiary. Her real father was Rex Calabrese, the crime boss from whom Falcone had taken power. Selina declined the request at first, but a street kid named Jade came to find her next, informing her the girl before her was killed by gang violence. Selina asked Rex for his guidance in becoming a mob boss herself to keep the mobsters in check from killing any other kids. The leadership of the Calabrese Family and the ownership of the Egyptian Nightclub were passed onto her as the legal heir. Catwoman, wanting to make sure Batman knew she was still on the side of good despite becoming the head of a crime family, told Batman everything she knew about the group of Arkham escapees still on the loose. After she got invited to a secret weapons sale that were actually weapons stolen from Batman’s own supply, Catwoman began to research high bounties in Gotham, and was tipped onto Stephanie Brown. Catwoman kidnapped her without realizing she was the current Batgirl. She was rescued by Batman and the situation was resolved. Soon Batman got captured by Lincoln March, and rioting broke out across the city. Selina forced her people to help prevent the riots while also secretly making strategic thefts to further her causes. During this time, Selina gave up her Catwoman mantle to Eiko Hasigawa, a heir to the rival Hasigawa crime family, and a love interest of Selina’s.

Eiko’s time as Catwoman was short-lived, though, as Eiko and Selina merged the Hasigawa and Calabrese families, leaving Eiko as their leader while Selina went back to her normal life… Sort of. She realized she was pregnant from a one-night stand with Sam Bradley Jr., and Holly Robinson took on the mantle of Catwoman at Selina’s request. Selina made up a fake identity, Irena Dubrovna, to peacefully give birth to her daughter, legally known as Helena Dubrovna. Sam Jr. had died by the time Selina realized she was pregnant, but his father, Slam Bradley, wanted to provide for his new granddaughter. Selina could not resist the thrill of Catwoman, and donned the suit alongside Holly a few times. Unfortunately, Film Freak and Angle Man had deduced where Selina lived after catching the two Catwomen on film, and kidnapped Helena. Selina easily rescued her daughter, and then had Zatanna Zatarra mindwipe the two villains of Selina’s identities. With Batman’s help, she faked “Irena” and Helena’s deaths, putting Helena up for adoption. She asked Zatanna to wipe her mind of knowledge about Helena so she wouldn’t put her in danger again, but Zatanna refused.

After returning to her solo role as Catwoman for nearly a year, Selina allowed herself to be arrested and sent to death row at Arkham Asylum for the murders of over two hundred terrorists. It was her friend, Holly, who had really committed the crime, but she trusted Batman would prove her innocence, therefore saving her and Holly’s lives. Nearly a year later, Helena Wayne, biological daughter of Bruce Wayne and Selina Kyle, from Earth Never-Two passes into Earth Never-One and gets trapped. Helena meets this world’s Selina Kyle. The two become close, with Helena still mourning the death of her mother in her universe and Selina missing her daughter. Selina was worried that being too close to her alternate universe daughter might lead her to the same fate as her Helena Kyle, but this Helena was an experienced adult who had lived through an Apokoliptian war. She was a capable vigilante who could hold her own perhaps even better than Selina herself, and Selina felt her concerns fade away. After another year passes, Selina asks if she can adopt Helena Wayne, despite Helena being 21-years-old. Helena, surprised, agrees. Almost a year after that, Bruce proposes to Selina and she accepts, becoming his wife.

Selina Kyle is, in general, highly flirtatious, seductive, and willing to use her looks and her charms to get what she wants- in fact she’s even proud of it. She’s also, much like her namesake, graceful, sly and light-footed, known as one of the greatest thieves out there. Despite her past of being an abused victim, she stands with her head high since she first donned the Catwoman suit (it can be quite enconfidating, that anonymity). She was never one to sit back and let herself or others get abused, and she sympathizes heavily with abused children, young women and sex workers especially. While her career as Catwoman started out to support herself and her friends, it eventually became an addictive adrenaline rush she couldn’t give up. Even though she’s ‘reformed’, she still has sticky fingers and loves the thrill of getting away with small robberies, especially when her husband is the Batman. She enjoys getting under his skin. She isn’t too big on black and white morality, instead choosing to do whatever is necessary for the situation. She’s not ‘above’ killing, but she’s no homicidal murderer, and it’s never her first option, although attacking her loved ones is a sure way to push her closer to the edge. Although admittedly in her earlier days, the empowerment of being Catwoman got to her head, and she let rage cloud her judgement, leading to her being more willing to brutally harm and kill. She’s very willing to take risks, enjoying the danger even, and she’s incredibly stubborn and persistent. She never had much of a villainous ego, nor does she have a superhero complex. She walks the line between the both with confidence, never worrying about being in the gray. Sometimes it ticks her off when Bruce and others think she should commit completely to one or the other, when she’s perfectly fine where she is.

Reblogs appreciated! Stay tuned for the finished project, which is this... but for every Batfam member ever

28 notes · View notes

rooneywritesbest · 4 years

Text

2020: Harley Quinn Takeover

As the time of writing this. We are exactly one month away from the release of Birds Of Prey/ Harley Quinn the movie. The marketing for the black and red jester will officially be in full force from now on. It’s still ironic to think, and actually imagine a character who was created by the great Paul Din all the way back in 1993. When the Emmy award-winning Batman The Animated Series was still gracing the screens of fans that appealed to all ages of demographic. The jester appeared as a side character or a write-off, but fate has it has turned into one of the most popular, and influential icons of comic book media.

Now in the early days of 2020. Harley Quinn has a successful animated series on the upcoming app of DC Universe. However many feel the platform is still finding it’s footing compared to say Netflix or Disney+. Moving on the show Harley Quinn is bloody, definitely NSFW, and only intended for viewership of mature audience status. Setting aside the preference of concern.

The show is riddled with star-studded talent. Ranging from Kaley Cuoco from Big Bang Theory as Penny, and even Tony Hale as Doctor Psycho.

Even JB Smoove from Curb Your Enthusiasm as Leon. Now on this property plays one of Poison Ivy’s plants named Frank. He is sarcastic, but also able to toy and tease ivy. The interaction between the two is quite genius writing.

There is so much to say about the cast. Alan Tudyk is a legend to be able to play as Joker with his sardonic humor, and his emotions of hatred and jealousy towards Harley. Then being able to switch into Clayface, and spin a different tone from the Clown Prince of Crime.

The presence of the Bat still looms in Gotham with Diedrich Bader once again taking up the cowl of the Dark Knight. From his tenure on Batman Brave And The Bold. Bader still brings the same charisma of the part, and actually gives a breath of comedy due to the wacky nature of the series.

Also can’t forget Ivy is voiced by Lake Bell, and nails everything about the character. Definite MVP for the majority of the season so far.

Many will ask how is the dynamic between Poison Ivy and Harley Quinn. The seeds for there comic accurate relationship have definitely been planted, but at the same time, Ivy is in more of a sister role. In the show, Harley’s plot thread is that she just broke up with the Joker. Only due to Ivy stepping in and telling her to see past the guilt of stock holm syndrome.

Another thing to realize, Harley is trying to find Independence, and the world she inhabits is one that doesn’t take her seriously because she was a henchman or let alone female. Quinn eventually does and finds a crew of people like her. Many, who are forgotten from the world due to their appearance or moral actions. Then, Of course, there are zany side adventures, but they all loop around to the commentary of realizing how depressing the world of DC comics really is.

The Harley Quinn show brings a lot of that to light. Joker is abusive and treats Harley as a trophy. However, In reality, Joker doesn’t care about Harley. He only cares about his battle with Batman. Essentially the yin to his yang.

There is so much that this property reveals, and of course, there are tons of Easter eggs for eagle-eyed DC fans. However maybe we shouldn’t notice the colorful costumes, but the emotional state that these fictional characters inhabit through the actors bringing them to life.

See the thing I started to realize is that every episode of this freshman season has a purpose or goal of sorts. The answer is to understand a moral or fact about life

Just like Birds Of Prey with the title of the film being Emancipation. Harley is seeking to be her own woman. She longs to identity as her own self. Not just someone seeking refuge and acclaim as Joker’s punching bag. Huntress is looking to atone for her sins, and Black Canary is really kept in the shadows with a lot being kept under wraps.

At this period of time, I can only guess and predict. However, one thing I can state and bring to light is that the DCEU is creatively groundbreaking due to the ingenuity of aesthetic. I truly feel that DC has found a way to compete with the mouse. The key is doing films that have there own identity, and direction from the mind of visionary directors. Todd Philips opened the door with Joker. Now the blueprint lies on the table let’s see what Cathy Yan does with Birds of Prey releasing Feb 7th this year.

Also, remember if you want to see Harley Quinn take deep shade at the DC Universe while also revealing many hidden layers of ethos. Tune in every Friday on The DC Universe app.

“Remember 2020 is the year of Harley Quinn, and this is her world. We’re just living in it”

212 notes · View notes

sadclownkingg · 4 years

Text

A Scene-by-Scene Joker (2019) Analysis: Part 1/?

The first part of what I wrote in my Cursed Notebook™ instead of sleeping/doing my schoolwork a month ago. Basically what I did is I watched the movie one time through, then started it over from the beginning and stopped after every scene to recap and infer what Arthur’s inner thoughts/motivations are. I went through an entire pen writing all this down and I was also very sleep-deprived so prepare yourselves. (I’ve also seen this movie 12 times now so I’d like to think I know what I’m talking about, but if you have any concerns, just message me!)

Before the Movie (+ Diagnosis):

Arthur Fleck is completely alone in this world, with no one to lean on except for his mother. And he is forced to take care of her due to her old age and fragility, all the while facing near-total isolation and societal backlash for just trying to do his job or his neurological condition/mental illness.

Given the abuse he faced as a child, at the hands of his mother's boyfriend, and the head trauma explicitly mentioned later in the film, that could be the origin of his Pseudobulbar affect (pathological laughter). Pseudobulbar affect (PBA) "is a condition that's characterized by episodes of sudden uncontrollable and inappropriate laughing or crying. Pseudobulbar affect typically occurs in people with certain neurological conditions or injuries, which might affect the way the brain controls emotion," and has "traumatic brain injury" as a common cause. The way I see it, the "severe trauma to his head" he experienced as a kid is the direct cause of his pathological laughter, meaning that he has spent the vast majority of his life dealing with this condition and it is mainly his own mother's fault. This makes the fact that his "mother" is the only person he has left even more frustrating and tragic. Pseudobulbar Affect is also known to cause/amplify anxiety, depression, and social isolation, meaning his obvious depressive symptoms may stem from the rejection he feels due to his laughing condition.

Also, although I know that even the writers behind the film say that diagnosing Arthur is pretty much useless, I still feel it is important to mention some possible diagnoses. Due to his severe depression throughout the majority of the movie, one could assume he simply has Clinical Depression. However, when paired with his transformation into the Joker at the end of the film and his obviously manic state, this leads one to believe that Bipolar Disorder could be the culprit. But then there is also his hallucinations and delusions, which suggests the presence of some type of schizophrenia. Psychosis, or loss of touch with reality (exhibited by the aforementioned hallucinations and delusions), is a symptom commonly linked with schizophrenia and similar disorders, and is typically caused by trauma and extreme stress. The psychotic episodes we see in the film, from his relationship with Sophie to the audience reactions we hear when he's practicing for the Murray Franklin Show, all center around either erotomanic delusions or grandiose delusions. Erotomanic delusions are when the disordered person believes someone is in love with them with no real evidence (Sophie), and grandiose delusions are when the person believes that they have much greater worth and power than they do, and that they may be famous with a bunch of adoring fans (the Joker persona).

With the presence of psychotic episodes, this narrows the amount of possible diagnoses. It is unlikely that Psychotic Disorder or Paranoid/Hebephrenic Schizophrenia are responsible due to their explicit tendency to completely disrupt the sufferer's life and negatively affect communication/speech patterns (which isn't noticeable in Arthur's case). Delusional Disorder seems likely, but he meets too many of the criteria of another disorder for it to be his sole diagnosis. This disorder is Schizoaffective Disorder, and is "a chronic mental health condition that involves symptoms of both schizophrenia and a mood disorder like major depressive disorder or bipolar disorder.” This diagnosis seems much more apt for Arthur, due to the heavy emphasis on his depressive and manic states and the delusional/hallucinatory symptoms. Schizoaffective Disorder is also likely caused by extreme stress (which Arthur faces a lot of) or structural brain issues (head trauma can cause structures in the brain to be damaged).

Sorry for the long tangent, but I felt it was necessary to set the scene for how Arthur processes the events that happen to him throughout the film.

His mental illness and condition make his life incredibly difficult and emotionally draining. Even his job, which is something he seems to really enjoy, only causes more problems for him, and pushes more people away. And even though he loves his job, he dreams of being comedian rather than just a party clown, probably hoping for more respect while still doing the thing he loves: making people laugh. His sense of humor is rather off-beat, focusing on self-deprecation, dry humor, and sometimes revolving around morbid subject matter, so he instead changes it to better fit what style of humor is generally accepted by those around him. He really tries to do what he wants to do in life, but everyone around him seems to just want him to sit and stay quiet. No matter what he does the people around him are never satisfied. He's doing too much and too little at the same time. He's trying to gain recognition, and people stop that from happening, then he just tries to lay low and let life happen and people look on him with disdain, as he's just another poor person who "isn't trying hard enough" to escape his current life of near-poverty. His job pays the bills, and is the sole source of income as Penny is obviously to ill to work.

No one wants to stop and give him a chance. He feels as though the world is getting more and more incompatible with every aspect of who he is. The city he's lived in his whole life is getting buried in trash from the garbage strike. His mother is getting sicker. The therapy he’s getting is sub-par and the social programs he relies on are gradually being defunded, another way people are shoving him aside. His dreams are as far away as they've ever been, or maybe even further away, and it feels like he is going nowhere but down. He's grown disillusioned with the idea of socializing in order to solely get to know someone because no one ever does the same for him. People ignore his existence, and his mother, the only person he has, is only there because she's too old and sick to have a choice. He's trying so desperately to be happy but it's painful.

(Next Scene: Opening)

#long post #joker 2019 #joaquin pheonix joker #arthur fleck #joker analysis #joker headcanons #film analysis #joker movie #welcome to the first (of many) circles of hell #my post #hopefully i'll have the next scene typed out and posted by tomorrow but we'll see #i gotta come up with a tag 4 this if i ever want to find this again #cursed notebook #there thats my tag #idc anymore

27 notes · View notes

harleyasks · 4 years

Text

(Mod post here, talking about the new Harley movie and commentary I have heard about new relationships in future projects)

First off, I love birds of prey. Its continous shots show off style and pure talent, and the humor is very on point and feels geniune to the characters itself.

But, people on here have been talking about ivy and Harley in the future and I have brought up my concerns considering the hints at emotional abuse Ivy puts on Harley repeatidly througout the comics and one reply tends to be the default.

"Well shes better than Joker, he broke her legs!"

I love poision Ivy and Harley as friends, and if the movie can make their relationship in a healthy light the BOP team is the team to do it. But, just because Ivys abuse canconically isnt physical doesn't mean its ok. If a partner is constantly saying you can never find better, that you will come crawling back and rewards when you do? Thats not ok. That fostering dependency that Harley shouldn't need at that high of a level.

Again these instances are the comics, the cartoons are a fair bit healthier with their friendship, and bombshell(which is technically not canon since its the 50s i think?) Is the cutest thing Ive seen.

But do not overlook issues in couples to favor Harley with posion Ivy for your moodboard. Do it for potential in them overcoming their issues with relationships and trust together

#harley quinn #posion ivy #healthy coping #relationship changes

13 notes · View notes

fairymascot · 3 years

Text

thinking about how good the harley quinn show is again... and how it's probably the most nuanced depiction of an abusive relationship in harley quinn's history, to boot.

the thing about harley is, she relapses. she and the joker break up a thousand times over before she's finally able to severe that tie for good. that's a key part of her character across continuities, but frankly, it's very rarely done well. often, its depiction is incredibly shallow and lacks any understanding of how abusive relationships work, or what keeps victims coming back. we just see harley swearing she's done with joker after some instance of horrific abuse, and then five minutes later he cruises by in his clown car, honks, and she drops everything to dive back into his arms. the mere sight of him is enough to make her forgive and forget on the spot. it's infuriating!!! in the original kids' cartoon, fine, that's about the level of complexity one would expect, but the fact it survived pretty long into the comics -- even the ones that take themselves more seriously, like gotham city sirens -- just drives me bananas. even in injustice, where harley and ivy get married and live together, the mere mention of joker's name on tv is enough to get harley to drop everything and go back to him. and this came out last freakin' year!

hqtv depicts harley's relapse in a way that's actually nuanced and believable. first, it takes its sweet time before harley even runs into joker again -- she gets to spend a substantial amount of time severing herself from him, building herself up, making a name for herself. you get to be actually impressed with her progress! and then, when she finally achieves her goal of joining the legion of doom-- bam. there joker is.

she knows he'd be there, of course, but she's still utterly unequipped to handle his presence face to face, one on one. she's not swooning, she's not flooded with love and desire at the sight of him. she feels scared and cornered and doesn't know what to do. and joker doesn't even try to win her back as his girlfriend; he doesn't honk his clown horn and expect her to jump in his lap. no, he plays a much more complex game.

the crux of it is: even with her love for him stomped out and replaced by anger and resentment, harley still defines herself through joker. she doesn't realize she's doing it, but her entire mission, her self-worth, rests on proving herself to him. she STILL craves his approval, even if she frames it in her head as 'showing him up', like it's 'revenge'. and he knows this. he exploits this vulnerability to hell and back.

he shows her, for the first time in her life, ACTUAL RESPECT. treats her as a professional equal, which harley has stated as her main desire way back in episode one. he reassures her that no, none of this is romantic, he wouldn't pressure her back into anything like that again. he totally respects her newfound independence. in fact, he's impressed by the woman she's become without him.

and harley eats that shit up. she's trying not to, trying to maintain a professional distance. but as soon as he provides her with an excuse -- he'll help her find a way to get her crewmates treated better at the legion -- she takes him up on it and gets sucked right back into his orbit. she can't even tell she's backsliding. as far as she's concerned, she's doing it to help her crew, so it's another step forward on her path of independence and there's no problem, right? but in reality, she's turning her back on her crewmates and breaking the trust of everyone who relied on her. and before she knows it, the pretense crumbles away, and things with joker fall back right into the place they used to be.

the reason this is so smart and effective and BELIEVABLE is because they took the time to write a real, fleshed out process. joker dressed up this relapse in the cycle of abuse as a new, positive phase in their relationship. harley's in a different place in life, the environment in which she reconnects with joker is different, and the approach he takes to lure her back in is nothing like the way he's treated her before. it's sugar-coated and innocuous, subtly preying on her innate insecurities and the remnants of her dependency on him that she's buried deep down. and she can't admit to herself that it's happening because that'd be admitting she hasn't grown as much as she thought, that she's not as strong as she wanted to be, that at the end of the day she's a weak and gullible victim. it's not that she's blind; she forces herself into doublethink. THAT'S why it works so well, and why it's so painful when it blows up in her face all over again... no other entry in harley's canon comes close to this level of depth and believability. GOD i love this goddamn show

#harley quinn tv #harley quinn #text #meta #my rambles #dc comics #long post

139 notes · View notes

ryanmeft · 5 years

Text

Movie Review: Joker

The Joker is ubiquitous in pop culture, possibly second only to his nemesis. If there is a Batman-adjacent project, the Joker will show up at some point, and often be the most memorable element. That’s held true for portrayals by Cesar Romero, Mark Hamill, Jack Nicholson and Heath Ledger. Joaquin Phoenix’s turn in the role takes a different tack and makes the villain the central character. It does not make him the hero, and that is an important distinction. Todd Phillips’ film walks a thin line between exploration of the character and adoration of him, and manages to stay upright.

There will, of course, be debate about that, a thing which in and of itself speaks to the unique creature the film is: can you imagine walking out of Avengers and debating anything other than which moments were the most fan-pleasing? I did that after Endgame, and was, on a superficial level, satisfied. Joker is aiming for a more cerebral level. There were times I could see the point and times I could not. That alone is noteworthy. I can’t imagine feeling philosophically conflicted about most superhero films. Is it possible I am giving it bonus credit simply for having thoughts in a typically thoughtless genre? Entirely possible.

One thing I noted is that when the credits roll, Phoenix is not credited as the Joker, but as Arthur Fleck. Fleck is a clown-for-hire who dreams of being a stand-up comedian, but keeps the lights on, barely, for himself and his mother by spinning sale signs or cheering up sick children. We meet him as he is mugged by a group of teenagers for no reason; they break the sign he is twirling, and his boss insists he stole it. His life is a series of such incidents, a pattern of trusting the world will do the right thing and finding it won’t. You sense that, deep down, he knows this. He reacts to each new disappointment not with shock or anger but with simple, resigned acceptance.

His life is one of quiet drudgery leading inevitably to a pauper’s grave, and it is dominated by his mother, played by Frances Conroy, who I have personally not seen since she was owning the brilliant Six Feet Under. We meet her here as a defeated old woman, gazing lovingly at TV interviews being given by Mayoral candidate Thomas Wayne (Brett Cullen) whose attitude toward the poor is derived from the real-world remarks of many right-wing politicians mixed with the savior-ism of the left. She worked for him, years ago, and is convinced he will answer her letters and lift her and her son out of poverty. This is one of several places where the film breaks with society’s stereotypes of the down-and-out: Fleck lives with his mother and does his best to care for her despite his own limitations, and the situation is not seen as especially pathetic. Another is that Fleck is regularly single, but being unlucky in love isn’t a significant contribution to his transformation; a brief relationship with a single mother (Zazie Beets) ends sadly but is not greatly important to his fall.

That transformation is played out slowly, and there’s no one moment that allows us to go “A-ha! This is it!” He discovers things about his true parentage, and then discovers there may be even more secrets to those secrets. He learns his mother may not be all there, and is keeping things from him. A moment is needed to highlight Conroy, who must shift her persona a couple of times during the film. We’ve all likely known an older woman who is oddly obsessed with something she’s seen on television; it has become a cliche, and most cliches have some basis in fact. Conroy feels sympathetic, and yet when we learn she may be unstable and possibly abusive, we also believe it; there is more than one person in her.

The film’s world views are not what Outrage Culture decided ahead of time that they would be. Prior to the film’s release, there were those who watched the trailer and decided it was glorifying sexist societal outcasts and the acts of violence they sometimes carry out. If you go into the movie expecting it to be that, you can probably find evidence of it. For myself, I don’t subscribe to the notion of deciding what a film I have not seen is and is not. I’ve seen it now, and as with almost every film that addresses mental illness in any way, there are things it does well and things it does less well. The slow transmutation of a simple sad sack into a mad anarchist is movie-plausible, if not real-life-plausible. Phillips and co-writer Scott Silver use some convenient shortcuts to let us know how close to the line Arthur is. He’s on seven medications and asks for more; more crazy, of course, requires more pills. He is gaunt and skeletal, with Phoenix losing a lot of weight for the role, to the point where his joints seem misplaced; another shorthand, as you rarely see a character who is both mentally ill and has any meat on their bones. There’s still a basic idea that external forces are needed to produce a real breakdown; the idea it can just simply happen, due to imagined events or to nothing at all, is simply too opaque for a visual medium to capture. The drama concerning Fleck’s parentage veers just this side of soap opera, but rights itself in the end. This is set against a backdrop of economic unrest, and the eventual furor the Joker stirs up resembles Occupy Wall Street on steroids.

What the film gets right is the way most people who end up suffering from a damaged mind get that way not because of one bad day---the cause Joker famously attributes his origin to in Alan Moore’s classic graphic novel The Killing Joke---but because of the slow accumulation of wounds that by themselves would not be serious, or would not be serious to someone with a different brain. The most tone-deaf criticism I have heard is that the things that happen to Fleck are not realistic; that they are contrived simply to make him sympathetic. If someone believes that people are not casually cruel for no reason, I would venture to say they have lived a charmed life. As someone who has spent time in both retail wars and the vastly overhyped halls of many a Comic Convention, I didn’t find anything people did to Fleck to be beyond belief. Robert De Niro plays a late night host who mocks Fleck’s botched attempt at stand-up to score cheap laughs of his own, and that of course is found everywhere. It is, for instance, easy to write a negative review by personally attacking the people involved. The film is not denying that some people are just horrible. Rather, it is saying that maybe, just maybe, the casual cruelty and anger that is so easy to find doesn’t help. We are also, of course, not meant to sympathize with the path Fleck takes, but to recognize that when people are monstrous, they create monsters.

There are criticisms that can be leveled at Joker, and since this is a positive review, I obviously disagree with most of them. Yet one stands out: the idea that the movie glorifies a murderer. There are ample movies and TV shows picturing the common fantasy of not taking it anymore, in which good guys kill anyone and everyone who looks at them funny while obliterating huge parts of the world around them. People die at the hands of heroes for doing their jobs on the regular, and how many innocent bystanders do so when Iron Man rips through downtown New York? Those movies reduce such sequences to cartoons, so we may go away satisfied and empty-headed. The greatest perspective trick movies often pull is not any camera wizardry, but in convincing us that psychopathic mass murderers are heroes. Will Joker start a new wave in film of Watchmen-like introspection on the reality of worlds full of colorful people with powers? Certainly not; we like our candy too much. Yet I will continue to dream of a Batman film in which the question asked is not why Joker kills, but why Batman keeps letting him escape to do it.

Verdict: Recommended

Note: I don’t use stars, but here are my possible verdicts.

Must-See

Highly Recommended

Recommended

Average

Not Recommended

Avoid like the Plague

You can follow Ryan's reviews on Facebook here:

https://www.facebook.com/ryanmeftmovies/

Or his tweets here:

https://twitter.com/RyanmEft

All images are property of the people what own the movie.

#joker #Joaquin Phoenix #batman #heath ledger #movies #frances conroy #jack nicholson #mark hamill #cesar romero #todd phillips #brett cullen #DC comics #zazie beetz

35 notes · View notes

aegon · 5 years

Text

okay, I know I’ve mentioned it before that I find the criticisms of ‘joker’ very shallow and misleading - but this is the top review on rotten tomatoes...

...and I feel the need to repeat myself again. This isn’t the only one of its kind, but it’s the most popular I’ve seen. Every media outlet has written about a similar topic in some shape or form.

So I’ve read the article, hidden behind a paywall as it is, and I take serious issue with the damaging message the author took from the film. I’ve copied the article bit by bit because I’m so fucking irritated by it.

For it is essentially a depiction of what happens when white supremacy is left unchecked. It shows the delusions that many white men have about their place in society and the brutality that can result when that place is denied.

Arthur Fleck doesn’t want to be treated better because of the colour of his skin. He doesn’t ask for help because he feels he’s superior to the POC around him. He needs help because he’s ill and no one cares. The film is a criticism of austerity and classism, and the unsympathetic arrogance of those in more fortunate positions than others. It’s also, more importantly, about how all this affects a mentally ill loner with a history of childhood abuse and living in poverty.

It has nothing to do with his race. The author’s words imply that a white person in such a desperate situation is only seeking to affirm their own supremacy. That’s....so fucked up. Mental illness isn’t some tool to be used in a race war, it hurts anyone. He’s dismissing the experiences of a man who happens to be white because he can’t see beyond the colour of his skin. Doesn’t that sound like exactly the kind of thing POC have been fighting against for decades, if not centuries?

The fact that the Joker is a white man is central to the film’s plot. A black man in Gotham City (really, New York) in 1981 suffering from the same mysterious mental illnesses as Fleck would be homeless and invisible. He wouldn’t be turned into a public figure who could incite an entire city to rise up against the wealthy. Black men dealing with Fleck’s conditions are often cast aside by society, ending up on the streets or in jail, as studies have shown.

And though Fleck says he often feels invisible, had he been black, he truly would have been — except, of course, when he came into contact with the police.

Arthur is invisible. It’s painfully obvious that he is. He incites a movement because of what he symbolises and the way Thomas Wayne dismissed people like him. When he murdered the three rich boys on the subway, only his clown makeup was identified. The police weren’t looking for a man of any specific colour, they were looking for a fucking clown.

Arthur could have been black, brown, red or blue. The face behind the mask doesn’t matter, because Gotham City united behind the icon of resistance. It’s supposed to be ironic. The only way Arthur felt seen was when he was under his mask. Nobody cared about Arthur Fleck, they cared about the Joker.

So yes, had Arthur been a black man, he’d still become the symbol of resistance.

Though Fleck is pursued and investigated by Gotham’s finest, his whiteness acts as a force field, protecting him as he engages in the violent acts of the latter half of the film. Consider his appearance on the live talk show hosted by Murray Franklin (Robert De Niro). A black man acting as strangely as Fleck does would not have been allowed to go on the air. But the white Fleck is given access, and bloodshed soon follows.

I mean, in regards to how strangely he was acting, the reason they invited him to the show was because they thought he was a freak. They wanted him to make a fool of himself. Also Murray’s producer never wanted him on the air, but Murray insisted because he was more concerned with viewership. Again - that’s the fucking point. Murray was far too invested in his own self-interest to see a man dangerously close to snapping. The author completely glossed over that, and the producer who didn’t want Arthur, white skin and all.

Or look at how Fleck interacts with others. He is frequently in conversation with people who occupy a lower rung in society than he does: a state-appointed therapist he sees early on; a protective mother who chastises him for playing peekaboo with her son on the bus; his possible love interest, a neighbor who lives in the same building; and the psychiatrist he sees in Arkham Asylum. Every one of these characters is a black woman with whom he eventually has confrontations. Phillips consistently places Fleck in an oppositional or antagonistic position to these women.

I don’t know if this is intentional on Phillips’s part, but it is significant. When we learn that his relationship with the neighbor (played with artful restraint by Zazie Beetz) was merely a figment of his troubled imagination, the way he leaves the apartment implies that this realization has led Fleck to kill her and perhaps her child. After his final conversation with the Arkham doctor, his bloody footsteps suggest that he kills her as well.

A key fact the author conveniently ignores in his article is that Arthur never blames immigrants or POC for his misfortune. When he takes a beating at the hands of non-white kids at the start of his film, his colleague calls them “animals” (a common racist term for non-white folks) but Arthur insists they’re just kids. He sympathises with them, despite the fact they brutalised him, because he doesn’t see them as an ‘other.’

And I do think that’s why, crucially, most of the female characters are black women. Whether they occupy a lower rung of society than he does is debatable, because he’s constantly framed as being in the same situation as them. He’s as impacted by the austerity cuts as they are, he rides the bus as they do, he lives in the same shitty building as they do. To quote his therapist: “they don’t give a shit about you, and they don’t give a shit about me, either.”

Arthur doesn’t just have confrontations with them, he has an imaginary relationship with one. Whether he murders her or not is left ambiguous and up to the audience to decide her fate. We can’t say for sure that she’s dead, and that’s the theme of the entire film. We have no idea if anything is real or all in his head when he’s in the asylum.

And that’s the brilliant point.

Arthur’s world is dominated by black women because black women are one of the minorities most affected by institutional prejudice, facing discrimination for both their race and their gender. In 1970s America, they were some of the most invisible people around, ignored by the wealthy and powerful. So Arthur relates to them.

Phillips’ decision to use black women offers a double message that they, too, are suffering under austerity and classism. This isn’t just a white lonesome man’s struggle, it’s a reality for black women everywhere. Arthur’s situation isn’t exceptional because your neighbour, your therapist, the woman on your bus with her kid - they’re all going through it without going on a murderous rampage. If you feel for Arthur’s plight, you feel for theirs too. It’s fucking brilliant.

As for why he has confrontations with them - he has confrontations with literally everyone. Literally everyone treats him badly. Again, that’s. the. point. Except for the black man at Arkham Asylum who tells him to go get help, who’s just doing his job and feels pity for Arthur. But hey, the author ignores that.

Fleck kills white men because he cannot access their status and is ostracized by them, but his black female victims are so invisible that the film does not bother to show their deaths. We as viewers can and should take note of them.

Arthur killed the three white boys on the subway because they were beating the shit out of him for no other reason than him laughing. They were cruel and sadistic, and he’d just been fired from the job he loved so was on his last nerve. He killed his white ex-colleague for framing him and having the balls to still ask him to lie on his behalf so he could keep his job, when he had Arthur fired. He killed Murray for demeaning him and mocking his plight.

Every person killed on-screen was white. Every person killed on-screen was because Arthur felt they’d done him wrong. Zazie’s character is unconfirmed if dead. The psychiatrist at the asylum is implied to be dead, but Arthur’s transformation to the Joker is complete and it’s entirely possible that the act in itself demonstrates (after having sympathised with black women before) that Arthur’s sanity has cracked and his humanity has been replaced by the chaos of the Joker, who cares little for any life, even that of a marginalised minority he once related to.

There are other ways that whiteness informs Fleck’s character. He anticipates he’ll be treated as a son by the Wayne family, and assumes he’ll be given medical records just by asking the hospital orderly (played by the great Brian Tyree Henry). The privileges that come with Fleck’s race set him up for these unrealistic expectations. When they’re not met, the consequences are deadly.

It’s almost as if Arthur has no concept of reality and has little understanding of the way the world works and naively believes that things will just happen because he wants them to. It’s almost as if he has severe parental issues and was so desperate for a father, he even imagined Murray calling him the son he’d always wanted. It’s almost as if this has been established in the film multiple times.

Whiteness may not have been on the filmmakers’ minds when they made “Joker,” but it is the hidden accomplice that fosters the violence onscreen.

Let’s take a film that offers a brutal outlook on the impact of mental illness on one’s psyche and sanity and demean the entire message, important as it is, and try to steer a much needed conversation on mental health towards something that doesn’t concern it. As a POC, I find articles like this so, so damaging to the fight against racism.

It essentially weakens our arguments and offers ammunition to those that believe POC just hate white people for no other reason than, “ur white and I don’t like it.” Way to go, NYT.

Guaranteed, if Joker had been black or brown and white women were only used, there’d be a backlash against the narrative for painting men of colour as unstable and white women as victims because men of colour aren’t allowed to be mentally ill, only terrorists and criminals. Which is what Joker ultimately ends up becoming. Can’t win, can you?

Thank u for coming to my ted talk.

#sorry I went off #I'm open to valid criticism #but to turn this into a race issue #and ignoring the conversation of mental health #doesn't help anyone #because we NEED to talk about mental health and austerity #it's a VERY REAL ISSUE affecting SO MANY PEOPLE #also people are assholes and we need to try and not be assholes and that's a lesson too lawrence but go off i guess #joker spoilers #go to sleep aly

27 notes · View notes

whitewolfofwinterfell · 4 years

Note

(2/2) especially given that the first thing i shipped once i knew what shipping was comes from the realm of daytime soaps, where people are betraying and backstabbing each other constantly lol. for me, i think it comes down to framing. if the show frames a pairing as abusive/toxic, i can deal with it a lot better than with fandoms and shows that romanticize it or sweep it under the rug. that, and of course, chemistry, is a big part of the reason i hate ships like c$ but can enjoy a pairing (2/3)

So, Tumblr ate some of your asks again (damn this hellsite lol) but we spoke on PM’s and you explained that in your other asks, you discussed toxic/dark ships, asked me what makes a dark ship work for me and the darkest ship I’ve ever shipped. You also said that some of the toxic ships you like such as Todd/Blaor and Joker/Harley work for you because of the framing of those ships.

I want to start off by saying, thank you so much for this ask. It’s such an interesting topic to discuss and I feel like it’s very relevant in fandom. There’s this hysteria around “abusive”, “toxic” and “dark” ships with people misusing or misunderstanding those words. I briefly discussed this previously in an ask I recieved about Stelena being abusive, which you can read here if you’re interested.

Overall, I think dark ships are brilliant because when they’re done correctly they can be the most intruiging, complex, authentic and gripping relationships in television. There’s no getting around the fact that love is tricky and complicated, and it can lead people down dark paths. Also, everyone has their issues, insecurities and scars, which often bleed into their relationships. So it’s only right that these sort of relationships should be portrayed in the media.

I feel very much the same as you about what makes a dark/toxic ship work for me. It’s all about the way that it’s portrayed and written. I can’t ship a dark or toxic ship when it’s romanticised or when the toxicity is glossed over or ignored, which is the case with ships like Ross/Rachel (Friends), Damon/Elena (The Vampire Diaries), Spike/Buffy (Buffy the Vampire Slayer - although my only qualms with this ship are in season 7, I actually think they were well written in season 6), Edward/Bella (Twlight) and many more. I have a particular issue with this because I think of all the young people that watch or read about these kind of relationships and aspire to have them and it concerns me. In my opinion, nobody should aspire to have a relationship like any of the ones I’ve just named or any other like them.

Dark ships work for me when they’re authentic and realistic. These types of relationships are intense and passionate, but they’re also exhausting and very detrimental to the people involved. So when I see a ship like this I expect to see that. I expect to see the consequences, to see the people change as a result of the relationship and be pushed to the extremes. I’ve discussed this previously in response to an ask about Delena which you can read here (be warned, it is anti-Delena). In that ask, I use Jax and Tara as an example of a toxic ship that works, and I stand by that. What makes Jax and Tara work so well as a toxic ship is that it’s constantly acknowledged and we see the devastating impact their relationship has on both of them, but Tara in particular. Yet with ships such as Damon/Elena or Emma/Hook, all I ever see is their love being glorified and romanticised.

I have to admit, I don’t have a tendency to ship dark ships. I’d say the only ships that I have that could fall into this category are Cook/Effy (Skins), Damon/Katherine (The Vampire Diaries), Dexter/Debra (Dexter), Ben/Callum (Eastenders) and Henry/Anne (The Tudors). There may be others, but I can’t think of any off the top of my head. There are different reasons as to why I still ship these couples despite them being dark and/or toxic. I’m going to analyse these ships one by one. Feel free to skip over this, because it’s going to be long and I’m literally just using this as the perfect excuse to talk about some of my favourite ships lol.

Cook and Effy (Skins)

I’ve spoken pretty in-depth about Cook and Effy being toxic and bad for each other previously. However, I’ll do it again because there are little things that I missed from my previous meta. Cook and Effy are toxic for one another at points, and this stems from the fact that as individuals they have a lot of issues and they use each other as a buffer for those issues. The reason they enter into a sexual relationship in season 3 is because they both use sex as way to deal with the disconnect they feel with others, but also because Cook wants to get one over on Freddie and Effy wants to deny her feelings for Freddie. As a result, they both unintentionally hurt each other. Cook knows that Effy is using him, but he allows it to happen which feeds into Effy’s pain about Freddie, whilst simuetanously causing himself pain, because he has genuine feelings for Effy. Their communication throughout season 3 is poor and they’re rarely honest with each other. Cook knows that Effy is in love with Freddie, but neither of them address this and it causes them both a lot of hurt. They also use each other as an escape. They run away together at the end of season 3; Effy to get away from Freddie and Cook because he wants to pursue the fantasy that he and Effy are going to live happily ever after. Although Effy willingly stays with Cook during that time, he does take her away from her home and loved ones and isolates her to an extent, because he wants to pursue this fantasy by any means necessary. He knows Effy doesn’t love him the way he loves her, but he goes into denial because he’d rather live a lie than lose her.

In season 4, when Effy finally admits her feelings for Freddie and gets into a relationship with him, she continues to cause Cook pain because she never validates his love for her. Instead, she ridicules and belittles him for it and downplays their relationship. When he tells her he still loves her, she tells him to piss off and later on she tells him that he was never good for her. Instead of admitting that what they had was real, but that she simply loved Freddie more, she makes Cook feel stupid as though what they had meant nothing. This leads to Cook once again going into denial. When Effy is suffering from mental illness and appears to not remember him, he plays along with her because it enables him to be with her, even if just for a short time.

The reason I’m still able to ship Cook and Effy is because despite the toxicity, there’s an equality present in their relationship. Everything that happens between them is mutual. Cook loves Effy but he never actively manipulates, coerces or pressures her to be with him in any way. In fact, he respects and accepts that she loves Freddie even though it hurts him. Effy hurts Cook by undermining their love, but excluding the one occassion where she tells him to piss off, she respects him and treats him with kindness. Cook and Effy never purposefully hurt each other or try to keep each other harm. The hurt they do cause each other is more an extension of their individual issues which have a knock on effect when it comes to their relationship. It’s not their relationship that’s toxic, it’s them as individuals. But also, the narrative never portrays Cook and Effy as being anything other than they are. We see the detrimental impact of their relationship and we hear Effy admit that they were bad for each other and would’ve never worked.

Damon and Katherine (The Vampire Diaries)

Once again, I have discussed Damon and Katherine’s relationship in-depth over at my writing side-blog, so don’t need to go into too much detail. I don’t think any explanation is needed here as to why Damon and Katherine are toxic. From the moment Katherine meets Damon she uses him for her own amusement, she sleeps with Damon and his brother at the same time without any regard for Damon’s feelings, controls every aspect of their relationship to suit her, fakes her death and lets Damon think she’s dead for over a century, continually plays with Damon’s feelings to get the reaction she wants, is continually dismissive of his love for her and rubs the fact that she loves Stefan in Damon’s face. And that’s just the aspects of their relationship that are toxic from Katherine’s side. Damon’s love for Katherine is so consuming that he goes to terrible lengths to be with her and when she rejects him resorts to violence and cruelty.

But again, the reason I’m able to ship them is because Damon and Katherine opearate on a level playing field. At the start of their relationship when Damon is human, Katherine definitley has an upper hand, but later on it’s tit for tat. They both hurt and manipulate each other, and in fact, they almost thrive on it. It’s part of how they communicate and relate to one another. Over the years, their feelings for each other become so twisted that they can’t express their love in the correct way anymore. Most importantly, just like with Cook and Effy, the narrative never strays from what Damon and Katherine are. They’re not true love, they’re not good for each other, they’re not healthy or a love to aspire to have. They’re profoundly connected and have a dark, twisted and complex history which is underlined with love but that manifests itself in often awful ways.

Dexter and Debra (Dexter)

These two are by far the darkest and most controversial ship I’ve ever shipped. As adopted siblings, there’s an incestious nature to the relationship which immediately creates toxcity in their relationship, but as individuals Dexter and Debra are both really messed up. Dexter is a self-proclaimed psychopath and serial killer, and Debra endures a lot of trauma throughout the series which deeply impacts her. Dexter and Debra have such an unhealthy and co-dependent relationship, it’s actually kinda crazy. Dexter lies to Debra and keeps an entire aspect of himself and his life a secret, he kills for Debra, he fails to validate or understand her feelings for him and he emotionally blackmails her. Debra lies and compromises her entire identity and morals to protect Dexter’s secret of being a serial killer, she murders an innocent woman to protect him and harbours a wanted criminal for him. Dexter and Deb will quite literally do anything to protect each other, but the result is devastating. You only have to watch Deb in season 8 to see just how damaging and toxic her relationship with Dexter is to her. Dexter and her love for him quite literally destroys her.

So it begs the question how and why do I ship these two? Well, the answer is the same as always: because the narrative doesn’t portray them as anything other than exactly what they are. Their relationship and Deb’s feelings for Dexter are completely fucked up and we’re told and shown that repeatedly. They’re not romanticised in any way, if anything they’re written in a way that would make most fans and viewers despise their relationship, particularly the romantic aspect of it. The show is true to them as individual characters and the toxicity of their relationship is authentic and understandable. I’ve briefly spoke about this previously, but Dexter and Debra’s relationship is supposed to be completely messed up because it’s an extension of them. Dexter, in particular, is damaged beyond repair and destroys everything he touches. Debra is part of that. Likewise, her falling for him makes perfect sense in the context of what she endures. Deb is a naturally self-destructive and self-loathing person, and loving Dexter is the biggest act of self-destruction she could ever enter into. In my opinion, of all the dark ships I have, Dexter and Debra are the perfect example of it being done right. They’re so dark and they love each other so much, but every step of the way the toxicity of their relationship is acknowledged and explored properly.

Ben and Callum (Eastenders)

I love Ben and Callum so much, and as far as they’ve come in their relationship, I can’t help but see the toxicity of it. In the beginning, Callum was unsure of his sexuality, was extremely closeted and carried a lot of internalised homophobia and self-hatred. This impacted on his relationship with Ben who had struggled with the same issues and didn’t want to return to that sad, lonely and miserable place. Callum’s relationship with Whitney and inability to admit his feelings for Ben made Ben feel rejected, sidelined and frustrated. At the same time this was going on, Ben’s issues of being afraid to love and let someone in after his ex was murdered, meant that he was unable to be completely open to Callum. By the time Callum was ready to come out and embrace his feelings for Ben, Ben was scared and backed away from Callum. Since the two have entered into a relationship, there’s been so much hurt and so much back and fourth. Ben is so afraid of hurting Callum and bringing harm to him, that he constantly pushes him away. The issue is that whether they’re together or not, Callum and Ben get hurt simply by loving each other. When Ben breaks up with Callum or pushes him away, they’re both heartbroken and long to be together again. But when Ben and Callum are together, their differences causes issues, and Ben’s actions put Callum in awful positions. Callum’s been forced to keep an innocent man’s murder a secret (he wasn’t really dead, but Callum didn’t know that), and now Callum’s been kidnapped and beaten, his life threatened, because of Ben’s actions. Ben has gone to extremes to save Callum including holding a gun to his own dad’s head and threatening to pull the trigger.

Unlike the other ships I’ve already discussed, the reason I’m still able to ship Ben and Callum isn’t because the narrative acknowledges they’re toxic for each other. It does acknowledge it, but the main reason I’m able to ship them is because none of the hurt they bring to each other is ever intentional. The hurt that Callum caused Ben before they were together was something he couldn’t control. He couldn’t force himself to come out and break up with Whitney. He had to come to terms with it in his own time and come out when he was good and ready. Likewise, Ben never intentionally hurts Callum. He does everything he can to protect him. Sure, he makes mistakes in trying to protect him, but all he ever wants is the best for Callum. A lot like Cook and Effy, the toxicity of Ben and Callum’s relationship doesn’t come from their relationship itself, but them as individuals. More specifically, Ben. Ben’s lifestyle, choices and actions have a detrimental impact on him and everyone around him (the mother of his child was also kidnapped not too long ago), including Callum.

Henry/Anne (The Tudors)

These two are a weird pairing to analyse, since they’re technically a real-life historical couple, but I’ll obviously be discussing them purely from a fictional stand-point and how they’re portrayed on The Tudors.

Henry and Anne are toxic as hell. Their relationship develops because Anne’s father uses her as a pawn to seduce Henry for the benefit of his own political career. Henry is also married to Katherine when their romantic relationship develops, so there’s infidelity and lies involved. Henry pursues Anne and although she falls for him, she actually has little agency in the early days. She’s told to entertain Henry and play on his attraction to her by her father, and later on, she has to submit to Henry because he’s the King of England. As the King of England, Henry has more power than any person should ever have and his arrogance and self righteousnous means that he’s more than happy to play on his power and use it to his advantage, even where Anne is concerned.

In the early stages of their relationship, considering the type of person he is, Henry is reasonably generous and gentle when it comes to Anne. He respects her, he listens to her and she has a voice in the relationship to a greater extent than Katherine did. But the moment that Anne challenges him or speaks out of turn, he shuts her down and forecfully reminds her that he’s the one with the power. He tells her to shut up and endure like her betters before her and he threatens her by telling her he can bring her down as quickly as he raised her. When she miscarries, he makes her feel that she’s a failed as a wife, mother and queen. He makes her feel embarassed, ashamed, anxious and unloved; the exact opposite of how she should feel during such a traumatic and painful time. Things only get worse when he proceeds to cheat on her whilst she’s pregnant. And we all know how this relationship ends. There are a lot of toxic ships out there but very few who actually kill their significant other, so Henry and Anne take the top spot for that alone.

The question arises again, why do I ship this? And it’s because a) they have amazing chemistry b) the ups and downs in the relationship are portrayed fantastically c) you visibly see the downfall of Anne as a result of her love for Henry. Anne is destroyed, both metaphorically and literally, by her relationship with Henry. None of the bad aspects of their relationships are ever masked or ignored, they’re laid bare, but we see that despite how bad they are for each other, they have a deeply intense and passionate love which neither of them can fight against.

So if you’ve read all of that, I guess I’d say that when it comes to dark/toxic ships, they don’t always work for me. I take them on their individual merit. Sometimes they work and other times they don’t. It all depends on how they’re written and portrayed, and how their relationship develops overtime

#answered #fatimagic #my meta

3 notes · View notes

graylinesspam · 5 years

Text

A lot of the time girls seem to be attracted to sarcastic problematic male characters.

Something that we are consistently cautioned for. We are often questioned, ”are those the kind of men you are attracted to?" that's not healthy.

Why should Tony Stark be your favorite character when fully functional Steve Rogers is right there?

I do want to preface this by saying I have nothing against my "control group" characters I will be using as examples. In fact several are still my favorites but for the sake of this discussion, I will be comparing them to my very favorite characters.

To stay on the subject let's take Tony Stark for example. He's flirty, sarcastic, a bit of a narcissist, and just problematic for the first twenty or so years of his teen to adulthood. Many Tony fans are criticized for loving him because he is so mistrusting of authority and always gets himself in trouble. He has a knack for hyper fixating and isolating himself. this is true. He is damaged.

But the damage isn't what attracts us to him. It's the way he treats people, women especially.

(Many of the points I am about to make have been recently pointed out in a post defending Tony against claims of misogyny, I wish I had the foresight to have copied a link to it. )

Tony like most of the men we will be discussing was abused by his father for most of his childhood. He grew very close to his mother. Trusting and idolizing her above his father. With the exception of Jarvis, there weren't any positive male role models in his developmental years. He had his mother, aunt Peggy and a gaggle of nannies to raise him. Who cared for him and built strong relationships.

In later years he is shown to trust and respond more positively to women. He puts Pepper in charge of his life and later his company after she burst into his office and Pepper sprayed a bodyguard to chew him out. She proved she took none of his shit and he trusted her to keep him in line.

Tony is seen as a trouble maker because of his dislike of authority, but it's always male authority. He feels challenged by other men especially those in positions of power that frequently feel the need to posture and put themselves above others in order to control them.

He trusts and complements Dr. Helen Cho despite his dislike for medical doctors. He always speaks to her with respect and frequently uses her title as a doctor in greeting unlike many who dismiss the title altogether. Tony puts Carol on charge of the avengers and by proxy himself because of his absolute faith in her ability to run the team. Nick Fury even realizes his innate respect for women above men and puts Maria Hill in charge of him as his shield agent. I could go on about his treatment of Nat and their strong friendship but I think it's time to move on to the next example.

In comparison, Steve absolutely shows respect for his female teammates. He may have briefly underestimated Peggy in the early comics but she knocked that out of him pretty quickly. But he just doesn't have an instinctual trust if women the same way Tony does. He trusts his teammates after they have proven themselves trustworthy. He is chivalrous absolutely but subscribes to the manners that focus on sir, ma'am or last names as opposed to acknowledging accomplishments outside of military ranks.

I think the complete respect and trust of women endears us so completely to those characters because it isn't just finally showing women as more than sexual objects but giving us the respect we are often denied. And it happens to show frequently in characters that we're abused by father figures and therefore are damaged. It isn't the damage that attracts us but it's often the other side effect of the abuse that causes this preference of women.

Clint too was abused by his father, often beaten so bad that it resulted in temporary hearing loss that is later brought back and worsened.

Clint was the baby boy in the family and wasn't in a position to be protective of his mother but that didn't mean he didn't love her. After her death and a stint on the streets, he joined the circus where he honed his archery skills and was quickly betrayed by the male figure he had trusted there. He was beaten again and left to die. His trust of women despite his overtly flirty behavior manifests in different ways to Tony. Clint trusts women is such a negative way. First allowing Natasha to coerce him into a life of crime when his initial intention was to be a super hero. And later when he allowed a love interest to trap him in an abusive off and on again relationship where he was often verbally berated.

But in later comics when Natasha is rewritten as a hero as her and Clint are partnered their relationship whether it manifests platonically or romantically is very close. They trust each other absolutely. He may be concerned for Nat but not once does he underestimate her ability. And often admits she is the stronger and more skilled one in the partnership and not in self depicting or spiteful way despite clints often concerning feelings of inferiority compared to the other heroes.

I think the best control group comparison for Clint would be Peter Parker (also one of my favorites). Pete is very close with his aunt may and though she is a huge player in his development he just doesn't have that preference for women. Not to say that he underestimated his female teammates. Despite being literally the strongest avenger he never insinuates it makes him better than anyone on his team. Not even Nat or Clint who have no powers. And of course, when he is in a relationship with MJ he treats her very respectfully and never like a damsel in distress. But due to lack of opportunity Pete just doesn't work with a lot of women. He doesn't have many allies, or villains for that matter, that are female. And though he is often easily lied to he doesn't show a stronger trust for women.

Let's switch up franchises shall we?

Jason Todd checks three of our boxes, abused by a father figure, adored his mother, and was betrayed by another male figure in his life. At least that's how he sees Bruce leaving the Joker alive. He also shows signs of being overly flirty, sarcastic, damaged, self-destructive, and "dangerous".

Unlike the others, he is more of an anti-hero. He worked under Bruce for a long time as Robin but even then he was often docked for use of excessive force and ignoring orders. Even as much as he loved Bruce his aversion to authority kept shining through. Male authority that is.

Jason is a huge Wonder women fanboy. He adores Diana and always shows her and the other amazonian's respect. When he is in Gotham he often works with Babs or Selina depending on which side he's working for (Though this may be for forced sexual tension by the writers). He always works better with women on any team. His most successful stint in a team was the original Outlaws where he referred to Kory as princess, not in a condescending way but because she truly was a princess. He never showed doubt in her abilities and often followed her lead. But mostly he trusted her completely to have his back. Just as much as he trusted Roy who he had known most of his life.

As opposed to his favored brother Dick who has been shown to trust Clark's word above most anyone.

This post is getting long but my point is often women favor characters who favor women. Most often very respectful male characters like those in the control group here are perfectly wonderful characters with established respect for women but that respect manifests it's self as an equal ignoring of any characters accomplishments in order to establish both genders as equal. Many look to the most qualified person in any situation to lead and while that is probably more correct it isn't very often that a female character is portrayed as being the most capable in any situation. While that isn't the characters fault it does leave an imbalance in power for female characters. When a man trusts a women above others it's a rush of endearment for us. Because finally we get that power, or sincerely that intimate trust from a character.

However, in the spirit of fairness, I'll offer up a character just as trusting and preferring of women with none of the abuse or character flaw. Clark Kent my chivalrous farm boy has always been a feminist and despite Lois's early portrayal as just the damsel in distress he never treated her like lesser than or incapable.

#character analysis #favorite characters #tony stark #steve rogers #precious peter parker #peter parker #clint barton #jason todd #dick grayson #clark kent #diana prince #mine

23 notes · View notes