#religion in fandom

[ryin-silverfish]

One nerd's musing about Chinese religion and "respect"

-I try to stay away from fandom discourse, but, much like how you can smell the stench from a dumpster fire without walking into said dumpster fire, I've noticed something that seemed to come up a lot in western JTTW + adjacent fandoms: "respect Chinese religion".

-Usually as a reason for why you shouldn't ship a character, because of fucking course it's shipping discourse too.

-And my first reaction is "Man, you are taking Chinese religion too darn seriously, more than people who are born and raised in China."

-My second reaction is "I mean, most of us are atheist/agnostic by default anyways, with a good number of what I'd call 'atheist/agnostics with superstitions': people who said they were not religious, yet believed in Fengshui or divinations and burnt incense at temples for good luck."

-My third reaction: "But why do I get the feeling that when you mention 'Respect', you are thinking about something completely different?"

-Then I reread an essay from Anthony C. Yu, "Religion and Literature in China: The "Obscure Way" of Journey to the West", and the metaphorical lightbulb just lit up over my head.

(Everything below applies more to Daoism + associated folk religions, but by the time most classic Chinese vernacular novels were written, the blending of the three religions had become well and truly mainstream.)

(The conception of gods differs from dynasty to dynasty. What I'm describing here is mostly based on Ming and Qing ones; if you went back to Han or pre-Qin times, most of these would not apply.)

(I am one of the "atheist/agnostic by default" people. I just have an interest in this kind of stuff. I am also just one Chinese person, and an actual Daoist/Buddhist/Religion Studies researcher would probably have a lot more valuable information and perspective to offer when it comes to contemporary practices and worship. Like any people on the internet: take my words with a grain of salt.)

-Even in the past, when society was far less secularized, Chinese gods are not omniscient, perfect beings whose worship is a solemn, humorless affair. Some's worship are Serious Business, but that has more to do with the sort of gods they are and the patronage they enjoy, not godhood in and of itself.

-And even the ones that you are supposed to "treat seriously" are still very human. To use an analogy I've used plenty of times before: you respect and fear them in the same way you'd respect and fear an emperor's official, or the emperor himself, because if you don't, you are not gonna like the consequences.

-However, unlike Jesus, the emperor & his officials were capable of being temperamental, flawed, or an outright asshole, divine or not. Ideally, they wouldn't be, and if you were one of the "serious" believers——people who actually got an official permit, became ordained clergy, and went to live in a temple, you were unlikely to think of your gods in that manner.

-But it wasn't a complete, utter impossibility. The lower you go in the pantheon, the closer you get to popular religion, the less "serious" the gods and their worship become. By that, I mean general attitude, not sincerity of faith. You still shouldn't be rude to them, but, well, they are more likely to take a joke in stride, or participate in the "vulgar" pleasures of commoners because they weren't as bound to Confucian moral standards or religious disciplines.

-To stretch the same analogy further: you should still respect your village head, they could still give your ass a good spanking for being a disrespectful brat, but you were not obligated to get on your knees and kowtow to them like you would do in front of a provincial magistrate, the emperor's minister, or the emperor himself, nor did they have the power to chop your head off just because you were rude.

-On the other hand, the emperor would never visit a random peasant just to help them fix their broken plow or treat them to a nice meal, but your village head could, and your relationship would probably be warmer and a lot more personal as a result.

-Your respect for them was more likely to stem from the things they actually did for you and the village as a whole, instead of something owed to this distant, powerful authority you might never get to see in your lifetime, but could change its course with a single stroke of a brush.

-Now exchange "village head" for your run-of-the-mill Tudis and Chenghuangs and friendly neighborhood spirits (because yes, people worshipped yaoguais for the exact same reasons), emperor + his officials for the Celestial Bureaucracy, and you'd have a basic idea of how Chinese religions worked on the ground level.

-This is far from absolute: maybe your village head was a spiteful old bastard who loved bullying his juniors, maybe your regional magistrate was an honest, upright man who could enjoy a good drink and a good laugh, maybe the emperor was a lenient one and wouldn't chop your head off for petty offenses. But their general degree of power over you and the closeness of your relationships still apply.

-Complicating the matter further, some folk gods (like Wutong) were worshipped not because they brought blessings, but because they were the divine equivalent of gangsters running a protection racket: you basically bribed them with offerings so they'd leave you alone and not wreck your shit. Famous people who died violently and were posthumously deified often fell into this category——shockingly enough, Guan Yu used to be one such god!

-Yeah, kinda like how your average guy could become an official through the imperial examinations, so could humans become gods through posthumous worship, or cultivate themselves into immortals and Enlightened beings.

-Some immortals aren't qualified for, or interested in a position in the Celestial Bureaucracy——they are the equivalent of your hermits, your cloistered Daoist priests, your common literati who kept trying and failing the exams. But some do get a job offer and gladly take it.

-Anyways, back to my original point: that's why it's so absurd when people pull the "Respect Chinese Religion1!!1!" card and immediately follow up with "Would you do X to Jesus?"

-Um, there are a lot of things you can do with Chinese gods that I'm pretty sure you can't do with Jesus. Like worshipping him side by side with Buddha and Confucius (Lao Tzu). Or inviting him to possess you and drink copious amount of alcohol (Tang-ki mediums in SEA). Or genderbend him into a woman over the course of several centuries because folks just like that version of Jesus better (Guan Yin/Avalokitesvara).

-But most importantly, Chinese religions are kinda a "free market" where you could pick and choose between gods, based on their vicinity to you and how efficient they were at answering prayers. You respect them because they'll help you out, you aren't an asshole and know your manners, and pissing them off is a bad idea in general, not because they are some omnipotent, perfect beings who demand exclusive and total reverence.

-A lot of the worship was also, well, very "practical" and almost transactional in nature: leave offerings to Great Immortal Hu, and he doesn't steal your imperial seal while you aren't looking. Perform the rites right and meditate on a Thunder General's visage, and you can temporarily channel said deity's power. Get this talisman for your kids at Bixia Yuanjun's temple, and they'll be protected from smallpox.

-"Faith alone" or "Scripture alone" is seldom the reason people worship popular deities. Even the obsession with afterlife wasn't about the eternal destination of your soul, and more about reducing the potential duration of the prison sentence for you and your loved ones so you can move on faster and reincarnate into a better life.

-Also, there isn't a single "canon" of scriptures. Many popular gods don't show up in Daoist literature until much later. Daoist scriptures often came up with their own gigantic pantheons, full of gods no one had heard of prior to said book, or enjoyed no worship in temples whatsoever.

-In the same way famous dead people could become gods via worship, famous fictional characters could, too, become gods of folk religion——FSYY's pantheon was very influential on popular worship, but that doesn't mean you should take the novels as actual scriptures.

-Like, God-Demon novels are to orthodox Daoism/Buddhism what the Divine Comedy is to medieval Christian doctrines, except no priests had actually built a Church of Saint Beatrice, while Daoists did put FSYY characters into their temples. By their very nature, the worship that stemmed from these books is not on the same level of "seriousness" as, say, the Tiantai school of Buddhism and their veneration of the Lotus Sutra.

-At the risk of being guilty of the same insertion of Abrahamic religion where it doesn't belong: You don't cite Dante's Inferno in a theological debate, nor would any self-respecting pastor preach it to churchgoers on a Sunday.

-Similarly, you don't use JTTW or FSYY as your sole evidence for why something is "disrespectful to Chinese religion/tradition" when many practitioners of said religions won't treat them as anything more than fantasy novels.

-In fact, let's use Tripitaka as an example. The historical Xuanzang was an extraordinarily talented, faithful, and determined monk. In JTTW, he was a caricature of a Confucian scholar in a Buddhist kasaya and served the same narrative function as Princess Peach in a Mario game.

-Does the presence of satire alone make JTTW anti-Buddhist, or its religious allegories less poignant? I'd say no. Should you take it as seriously as actual Buddhist sutras, when the book didn't even take itself 100% seriously? Also no.

-To expand further on the idea of "seriousness": even outside of vernacular novels, practitioners are not beholden to a universal set of strict religious laws and taboos.

-Both Daoism and Buddhism had what we called "cloistered" and "non-cloistered" adherents; only the former needed to follow their religious laws and (usually) took a vow of celibacy.

-Certain paths of Daoist cultivation allow for alcohol and sexual activities (thanks @ruibaozha for the info), and some immortals, like Lv Dongbin, had a well-established "playboy" reputation in folklore.

-Though it was rarer for Buddhism and very misunderstood, esoteric variants of it did utilize sexual imageries and sex. And, again, most of the above would not apply if you weren't among the cloistered and ordained clergy.

-Furthermore, not even the worship of gods is mandatory! You could just be a Daoist who was really into internal alchemy, cultivating your body and mind in order to prolong your lifespan and, ideally, attain immortality.

-This idea of "respect" as…for a lack of better words, No Fun & R18 Stuff Allowed, you must treat all divinity with fearful reverence and put yourself completely at their mercy, is NOT the norm in Chinese religious traditions.

-There are different degrees and types of respect, and not every god is supposed to be treated like the Supreme Heavenly Emperor himself during an imperial ceremony; the gods are capable of cracking a joke, and so are we!

TL;DR: Religions are complicated, and you aren't respecting Chinese religions by acting like a stereotypical Puritan over popular Chinese deities and their fictional portrayals.

#chinese religion #chinese mythology #chinese folklore #fandom discourse #journey to the west #xiyouji #investiture of the gods #fengshen yanyi

[ao3demographicssurvey2024]

In case you missed it, these are just some of the graphs from the AO3 Demographics Survey 2024 - an unofficial demographics survey of 16,131 AO3 users.

You can find the first section of the results, including full transcriptions of all the data above, on AO3. The second section of the survey will begin posting results soon!

#demographics #survey #fan survey #survey responses #fan demographics #fan studies #fandom stats #fanfiction #archive of our own #ao3 #age #gender #sexuality #race #religion #disability #language #location #lgbtq+ #ao3 demographics survey 2024 #survey results

[thevioletharmon]

I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him I need him

#ahs #american horror story #ahs murder house #ahs fandom #violet harmon #taissa farmiga #evan peters #tate langdon #ahs freakshow #ahs series #anna ahs #ahs asylum #ahs coven #ahs apocalypse #ahs cult #ahs hotel #american horror murder house #american horror show #evan peters religion

[larphis]

I think the closest thing I‘ll ever accept as a proof of god‘s existence are fix-it fanfictions. Jesus sounds great and all - but have you ever had a post canon fanfic that was so well written that it sounded like it was actually canon and you felt as if all your wounds were suddenly healed?? THAT‘S a religious experience if there ever was one, if you ask me.

#fanfictions #fanfiction #txt.post #opinion #personal #fandom #fandoms #humor #religion #fix it fic #writing memes #just tagging a bunch of fandoms this applies to #our flag means death #supernatural #ted lasso #good omens #doctor who #hannibal #bbc sherlock

[arch-aeology]

But Jesus said unto him, Judas, betrayest thou Son of man with a kiss?

closeup and rambling under the cut :)

slowly healing from religious trauma by viewing the Bible as a work of literature (rather than The Old Book That Runs My Life) and its interesting as fuck tbh,,, also I recently watched Jesus Christ Superstar for the first time and I am absolutely obsessed. Gethsemane and Heaven On Their Minds go so damn hard. Anyway I felt like doing an actual rendered piece and was having thoughts about Judas Iscariot and this was the result!!

#jesus of nazareth #judas iscariot #cw religion #how do i even tag this #jesus fanart #religious art #religious imagery #jesus fandom #jesus christ superstar #exmormon #anyway Jesus was chill as fuck #love that guy #wish people would actually love thy neighbor #instead of being hateful yk

[vanessa-rafesgirl]

he's my new obsession. 🧘🏼‍♀️

#charlie bushnell #luke castellan #pjo tv show #pjo series #pjo #pjo fandom #percy jackson #percy jackon and the olympians #charlie ray bushnell #luke castellan defender #vibes #girlblogger #my man <3 #my man my man my man #my religion #husband material

[parasitic-saint]

the wound

#digital art #christposting #jesus mention #the wound #religion #bible fandom #jesus fanart #jesus fandom #nsft #gore #might actually do this one into an illustration to print #maybe #i have so many wips #this is what happens when i sleep 3 hours in 48 hours #...no.. not rlly im always like this...

[crazy-maracuya]

The day people start making retellings of the bible in the same way they make about Greek mythology is the day when I resurrect

#WHERES THE GNOSTISISM #WHERES THE DRAMA #DROP THE APPLE ALREADY GIVE ME YOUR TAKES ON WHICH KING FLUMBED THE HARDEST #JUDEAH EDITION #bible fandom #i mean its already kinda like that #but i wish i could see into the future just what kinds of stories people will make if christianity has a decadence like other religions #oh it would be cool if there is a merge of religions altogether. I think that fututre would be fun to read about. #kinda like the other metamorphoses in the past God as well is seen as a different being the its past alterations #would be cool would be cool

[solargeist]

that homophobic artist is kinda funny to me bc, like, Philza would ban her in his + his friends chats, Cleo and Wels made fun of people like her on twt not that long ago, multiple Traffic members are queer, and all of them have vocally supported queer people during pride month like, why are you here ?

#like go be an artist for a homophobic media (oh they all suck!) instead of piggybacking off queer people's existence for your own gain #You cannot think we're disgusting while using us for entertainment and money. #And you Cannot use religion as an excuse. I was raised Catholic. and I was gay back then too. #i draw grian being gay and catholic im on a whole different level #i saw she was also in the dsmp fandom.. which is also crazy. #also dude like quackity wears a cross eerywhere and hes supportive to my knowledge adgkadljgk

[casually-eat-my-soul]

So I’m picturing stiles being a priestess to the goddess of the moon. Alpha derek hale, Gladiator style.

Maybe a ritual with a virgin sacrifice of a kind 👀 maybe Derek coming across the temple and tempting the priestess into sin.

Either way a ruined altar table 👀👀

Moon runes on stiles skin

ANGST ISH VERSION

stiles starts losing time, everyone is convinced that it’s just the goddess inhabiting his body like a vessel. But stiles deep down knows it’s not. He knows the goddess magic — and this, this is not it.

He absolutely desperate and no one will listen to him. Cue the goddess sending one of her child, Derek hale to help. Because stiles is her favorite priestess and she knows there is a evil presence inside him

“Your goddess has given you to me…and I am not one to ignore such blessings”

But either way I still get my virgin ritual

Do yall see the vibe

#sterek #stiles stilinski #derek hale #derek hale is obsessed with him #sterek fandom #freak4freak #stiles x derek #derek x stiles #Derek is possessive as hell #derek will fuck him on that altar rest assured #even though he’s a WEREWOLF - stiles is the only religion he ascribes to #teen wolf

[xx-thedarklord-xx]

what's a ship that you like that might make people go 'huh?'

Ahh asking the true questions I see. Okay, hear me out fellow Marvel lovers, I bring you one of the most intriguing ships. FrostIron. Tony Stark and Loki. Now, I know what you're saying, 'But Sam, they only ever had one conversation.'

All it takes is one damn conversation people!

Lmao no, but I do love it. The enemies to lovers potential is just *chef's kiss* add in that one of them is a villain while the other is a hero? Yes please! Sign me up. One of them is technologically brilliant while the other one is a magical prodigy? Fuck yes. One of them is a GOD and technically a fucking alien? More please. Both of them have daddy issues, both are sarcastic as fuck, hilarious and petty. They are the true power couple of Marvel, I'm just saying

#Marvel #FrostIron #Tony Stark #Loki #loki laufeyson #JUST IMAGINE IT #If I can convert just ONE person into the FrostIron fandom #I will take it #Think of me as a missionary #except I am going to one blog door at a time recruiting you into FrostIron #join my religion please

[ryin-silverfish]

Me, staring at the "Nezha is eternally 12/Nezha is often depicted as a kid so he's just a kid and nothing else" crowd: man, have you heard of Child Manjushri a.k.a. Wenshu Tongzi

(This is totally not an excuse for me to find cool statue pictures and talk iconography)

So, here is Bodhisattva Manjushri in his standard "graceful aristocratic prince" form, riding his azure lion. The statue in the picture doesn't have it, but oftentimes, he'll also be holding a flaming sword that symbolizes wisdom's ability to cut through ignorance and delusions.

This is "Holy Old Monk Manjushri", a variant that I came across a few times while temple-touring, but couldn't find many good online pictures of. It seemed like a thing that was popular around Mt. Wutai, based on the "Buddha-palita met Old Man Manjushri" tale. Sometimes his BFF Samantabhadra is depicted as an old man too, for matching purposes.

And this is Child Manjushri, with his five hair buns, often worshipped in an esoteric context. On Mt. Wutai, there are five major temples atop five peaks, each worshipping a different form of Manjushri, and the "middle peak" temple has a Child Manjushri in their main hall. Like, it's far from the most common variant, but neither is it this super obscure form that no longer enjoys active worship.

Lastly, just for fun: this is Yamantaka, a guardian deity/Wisdom King, who, in Tibetan Buddhism, is believed to be Manjushri's wrathful form.

If you wouldn't call Manjushri "the eternal child Bodhisattva" just because he has a child form, why would you say Nezha is an eternal child when he, too, has both child and adult forms?

Even though Nezha's child form is vastly more popular and well-known than Child Manjushri, I think my point still stands: A deity is capable of having multiple manifestations, of varying ages and appearances, each fulfilling a particular function and niche——none of which is the "One True Form TM", just different clothes they wear based on occasions and audiences.

To stretch the analogy a little, Manjushri's child form is the formal dress he puts on before attending a religious event, while Nezha's child form is the lotus T-shirt he wears a lot while appearing on TV, to the point it becomes his most iconic attire.

This doesn't mean he only has a single shirt, for goodness sake, and using his child form as evidence for the "eternal child" claim is like saying Nezha's only allowed to wear that one shirt and nothing else.

#chinese mythology #chinese religion #buddhism #manjushri #bodhisattva #nezha #buddhist art #fandom discourse #lego monkie kid #...tagging lmk because where else would I see the “eternally 12” thing proliferate #this will be my only two cents on the topic #barring answering asks that are specifically about Nezha in FSYY/JTTW

[ao3demographicssurvey2024]

In the AO3 Demographics Survey 2024 - an unofficial demographics survey of 16,131 AO3 users - 17% of respondents identified as Christian, while 69% identified as having no religion.

To see more analysis, including a list of the common write-in answers for this question, please view the full results on AO3.

#ao3 demographics survey 2024 #religion #christianity #atheism #christian #atheist #fandom #fanfic #judaism #jewish #paganism #pagan #agnosticism #agnostic #ao3 #archive of our own #survey results

[prokopetz]

People discussing fictional characters whose initials are “JC” without ever spelling who they’re talking about throw me for a loop every time because that initialism meant something very particular when I was growing up, so I’ll see folks saying the wildest shit about “JC” on my dash and the first thing that pops into my head is “Jesus did what?”

#media #fandom #nameology #religion #christianity #swearing

[michaelhholden]

Someone's probably already posted this but:

And today Fereshteh says:

Religious themes in iwbft my beloved

#the comparison of fandom culture and religion #alice said 'if it wasn't clear until now i'm gonna make it as clear as possible' #iwbftreread #iwbft

[fivetrench]

HOLY FATHER HOLY SON HOLY SPIRIT

#artblr #artists on tumblr #artists of tumblr #my art #digital art #digital artist #moral orel #moral orel fanart #moral orel fandom #clay puppington #orel puppington #fanart #tw religion #tw religious themes #religious imagery #religious #clay puppington fanart #orel puppington fanart #moralton #adult swim #adult swim fanart #trenchposting