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thewestmeetingroom · 3 years

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Ep 49 Hart House Conversations Reunion

Broadcast Feb. 13, 2021

SPEAKERS

Nour, Kitsa, Rebekah, John, Sabrina

Rebekah: Hi everyone and welcome to this week's episode in The West Meeting Room. It's your host Rebekah. Today you will hear a round table reunion conversation that took place on zoom at the end of January 2021. But it is a follow up dialogue from a conversation that first took place during October of 2017. Four undergraduate students Kitsa, Nour, Sabrina and myself gathered with John Monahan, the warden of Hart House for a recording of Hart House Conversations almost four years ago as first year students, where we discussed our hopes and fears about our upcoming academic careers at the University of Toronto. Now, almost four years later, as we near the end of our academic programs, we all joined together once again in a very different world than when we first met. And now join us as we talk about the changes that we've undergone our revelations and as we open the audio Time Capsule to speak alongside our past selves.

John: Hi, everybody. Good afternoon, and good evening to some of you. How is everyone doing? Feeling? feeling tired? Well, I am. Yeah, I'm in a state of perpetual tiredness myself these days, kind of a fogginess. But I'm really grateful that the four of you are here. We have this really exciting opportunity this afternoon, to pick up a conversation where we left it four years ago, which is a fairly rare opportunity, but a really exciting one. And I'm delighted to be here with Sabrina, and Nour, and Kitsa, and Rebekah, all of whom were first year undergraduate students at the University of Toronto, when we sat down in person at the time to talk in the radio studio at Hart House at the University of Toronto. And now it is January 2021. And, as I said, almost four years have gone by, and the world is in the grips of a global pandemic. So, we are meeting virtually, we’re all relying upon the technology of zoom, and our headphones and our computer screens to have a conversation. But here we are, nonetheless. So, I just want to plunge in and ask all of you for the benefit of the viewers that didn't necessarily meet you four years ago. Would you be willing to introduce yourselves to whoever's listening? So, Rebekah, since your head is currently the largest on my screen?

Rebekah: Sounds great.

John: Will you introduce yourself?

Rebekah: For sure sounds good. Um, so my name is Rebekah, I'm a fourth-year student at U of T. This is my last year at U of T, it's hard to believe. That time has zipped by incredibly fast and also not at all in some cases. And yeah, I'm a double major student in History and Russian Language and Literature. And I have a minor in Practical French. And I also work as part of the Hart House Stories team as Podcast Producer on campus, helping to put together this little project. So that's me in a nutshell.

John: Thank you for your nutshell, Rebekah. And because you and Sabrina are both podcast experts, you're not allowed to judge me even though I'm technically working for you this afternoon.

Rebekah: No problem.

John: Kitsa. Kitsa, so you're next on my screen? Would you introduce yourself please?

Kitsa: Sure. My name is Guershom Kitsa. I'm a fourth-year architecture student - for moment I forgot what year - was like I'm in my fourth year? Ah, yeah, I think that's it. I don't know if I should say anything else. My name and my program.

John: Well, we'll, we might drag more stuff out of you later. But that's a good beginning. And I'm sure there's, there are many more layers to Guershom Kitsa that we will be peeling back over the span of the next little while together. Nour, please introduce yourself to us.

Nour: Hi, my name is Nour Bazzi. I am an Immunology and Physiology student double major and I'm in my fourth year. And I'm so excited to be here today.

John: Excited that you're here with us. And last but not least, Sabrina. And I, I'm looking at this picture of somebody who looks like they're on the top of a building and a red parachute outfit. Is that you?

Sabrina: Yeah, that is me and I think this is interesting because I was listening to the original tape and we also had kind of an aside conversation in the introduction then as well but that is me on top of the CN Tower when my brother bought Edge Walk tickets for him, myself and my mom two summers ago. So that's me hanging over the Toronto skyline.

John: Wow. So, we know that Sabrina is someone who loves to court danger. Introduce our listeners to the rest of you.

Sabrina: Yeah, So Hello. My name is Sabrina Brathwaite. I am in my fourth year and two credits away from completing my degree, a major in Philosophy and a double minor in French and Political Science. That is French and Political Science, not Political Science in French. That's a question I get a lot. And for anyone who listened to the original audio or the original episode, you would notice that my degree selections changed. So, I feel like that's going to be an interesting conversation coming up about changing hats and trying new things.

John: Absolutely. Now, I wonder if this would be a good time for the five of us to spend a few minutes listening to a mashup from our recording four years ago. So that we can all kind of be reminded together of what we said and what the vibe was. And we're not going to hold you to anything, if you want to completely change your story. You can. That's the beauty of this. This is a free form technology. But I'm going to ask our producer Braeden to play the mash up. And we'll all listen to it. And then we'll talk about it after that.

[The following is a selection of clips from the 2017 conversation with the speakers]

Kitsa: Because I came here earlier than, before the school opened about a week or two, two weeks before the school opened, okay. And it was extremely lonely, I had no one to talk to. I didn't know anyone, I didn't know anything. I couldn't go anywhere else. I was just in residence in Whitney Hall, all on my own, but then after a while, able to speak to different people, sort of like you kind of get what people are about and what they care about. And that's really amazing. Being able to connect with that. It's amazing. And I was having this, a whenever you're able to reach out to these people, not only do opportunities open up for you academically, but also so many possibilities are opening up to you. I was having this conversation with my success advisor. And she just, I had this thing that I really wanted to do. I was saying I wanted to change the world. And I was like, how am I going to change the world? And she actually put me on a path where I could see myself impacting other individuals and sort of like, sharing, I felt that at Toronto, and U of T specifically, it's the best university in Canada, one of the best in the world, there's so much diversity that is brought into place that we need to share this. And so, like having conversations with these people in power, it can, it kind of opens us up to how we can be able to reach out to more people and to new possibilities, more than just looking at a lecture slide or writing notes in class.

Nour: I think I speak for a lot of international students or students coming from abroad when I say the transition from childhood to adulthood, even when you're not, especially when you're not around your family, like you're so, when you're back home, you're so used to like, “yeah, I can mess up, it's fine.” You know, you have people that can pick you up. But now it's like, every action has a consequence. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. I mean, it's part of the transition, right? It's part of, of growing up. It's part of, it's exciting. But it's also something very intimidating. So, it's a little bit of both for me. No, I mean, like this is huge. This is like, the weather is different. The everything is different for me. And it's very, very exciting because I've never been so exposed to so much diversity, and it's very exciting. So, the learning here is not just limited to like textbooks or like, you know, facts, figures, you know, whatever you learn in class. It's like, just socializing and speaking to people kind of like this. You see people from like, all around the world, and it's so fascinating for me. Yeah.

John: And what are you studying?

Nour: Right now, I'm a Life Science student. I'm hoping to specialize in Human Biology next year. My end goal is medicine and hopefully surgery.

Rebekah: Being on a campus in another country, like outside the US was something that was really exciting for me because I wanted to be able to interact with people from all around the world. And of course, the universities in the states also have like international students. But I feel like in terms of, I heard a statistic before I came here that like more than half of the population who lives in Toronto was born like outside of Toronto, or even outside of Canada. So that seems super exciting to just get to like, get all these people's different experiences and just hear their stories. And I attended an international student orientation week before school started and just sitting around and talking with people and just hearing like, their life story and like where they grew up and stuff was something that I like never really thought that I could ever experience and it was definitely eye opening to me. I came to U of T in hopes of studying International Relations. But over the course of going to classes and you know, just figuring out the work, I found that like, my favorite class right now is Russian. I studied Russian in high school. So, I joked with my parents that I might end up becoming a Russian Language Literature major only because that's something that I really enjoy right now.

John: I mean, would it please them or tick them off?

Rebekah: No, I think they'd be, I think that's something they expect, actually. Because like, I love languages, so they they'd be pretty down for it. But I know they'd be more excited if I was an International Relations major.

John: Well, life is long.

Rebekah: Exactly.

Sabrina: So, coming to U of T, my intended major, hopefully, is Ethics, Society & Law, which is headed by Trinity College, with a double minor in Spanish and French. Something that I'm excited to kind of hone, I suppose is like networking and networking skills, which sounds really superficial on the face of it.

John: Oh, I don't think so. I don't think so at all.

Sabrina: Some people say like, you know, it's, you're just going to meet people, whatever. But if it's actually, I wouldn't call it an art. But it's a skill to be able to talk to people and be able to connect with someone in a way that like, you can get their number, get their Facebook and contact them even after months or years of not talking,

Kitsa: I need to learn that. I need to see you for that,

Sabrina: Especially in kind of this -

John: You've just networked. This is it you're just doing it.

Sabrina: in this job market and just kind of like financial climate, and I don’t want to throw too many buzzwords out. But a lot of the times with jobs and just opportunities, it's not so much the skills you have. There's 50 other people with the skills you have, but it's the people you know, and it's what the people you know know of you and what you in particular can bring into that position. The things that they know about you that the interviewer can't get out of a half hour, you know. So I'm just looking, really looking forward to just be better at talking to people and taking in what they're saying to me and remembering names, remembering details, and making actual viable connections.

[The end of the clips from 2017. Now back to the present conversation]

John: Thank you so much, Braeden. So, let me ask for first reactions. My question would be, do you recognize yourself?

Sabrina: Yeah, I do recognize myself. Even though there is there's like changes or the way that things have manifested themselves are different than now, I kind of stated them there. I think the energy behind those words is consistent in who I am now too.

John: Consistent energy. I like it. Kitsa - do you recognize yourself from four years ago?

Kitsa: I mean, it's always weird listening to a recording of yourself. You're like, “Who's that guy? Do I sound like that?” I hate listening to myself. But yeah, it's interesting how, Yeah, it's interesting how the dots kind of connected themselves over the last few years, because I think when I was saying those things, I really believed what I was saying. But sometimes through university, I kind of felt like I was not going in that direction at all. And now looking back, I'm like, Oh, hmm...

Rebekah: Yeah, I think for me, it was kind of interesting because I've listened to this tape before, before we started recording. And I could hear how young I sounded. Or at least in my brain, I feel like I sounded younger. I also could pick up a little bit of maybe shift in my accent, I don't know. Like, that's something that I also could hear listening like very finely. But I think there's just so much excitement behind my voice. And I'm, not to say that I'm not still excited, I just think that the excitement has kind of transformed into something else. Because I had no idea of like what the next three or four years is going to look like for me. And I could have never predicted that we were going to be in a global pandemic. And so just hearing the hopefulness that my voice is trying to make me think that maybe there should be some more hopefulness in my voice right now. Not knowing where I'm going to end up after this year, but just trying to be comfortable with that because she sounds excited and I want to channel that.

John: She does sound excited. Nour - how does, how does the Nour on the tape sound to the Nour who's part of this conversation today? Do you recognize her?

Nour: I feel like I sound so excited and maybe even naive in my excitement. Like, I was like, you know, trying to, I was trying to, like postpone listening to this to like the very last minute before the meeting because I didn't want to cringe. But I think it's like so much, I think um, so much has changed for sure. And I agree with Rebekah that I want to kind of channel that excitement and that energy and hopefulness because you know, I think we all need a little bit more hope during our times. And it's, it's good to think about I guess.

John: Absolutely. Just as I was listening again to the recording, a couple of things jumped out at me. Some commonalities between Kitsa and Nour, and then between Rebekah and Sabrina. And I could listen to it another time and pick up completely different things. But this time around, I really was struck that both Kitsa and Nour, you talked about the palpable excitement of being around such diversity, so many different people have different identities that you were encountering at the university, living in Toronto. And both of you have - Nour, I think you were born in Canada but spent most of your time growing up outside Canada, and Kitsa having been born in Africa and being raised outside Canada. This being a new experience for you four years ago, you both were excited about the variety and diversity of people. Has that excitement, or how has that excitement evolved, at all, if it has over the last four years?

Nour: I think I'm still very excited. But also, like, as I was settling into Toronto, I feel like I had this tendency to talk to or spend more time with people who reminded me of home, who can speak my mother tongue and who I can talk to about, you know, um, culture and, you know, just connecting on that I feel has brought me closer to feeling like I'm safe. And especially during times when I'm feeling overwhelmed with all the differences and, you know, all the differences between home and between Toronto, which slowly started to feel like home to me. But you know, just at the beginning, just sometimes you need to feel that things are not changing too fast. And I think if you connect with people who remind you of home, it can be a great way to slowly transition into a new environment.

John: Right. And diversity doesn't necessarily mean unfamiliar, right? So, it's, you can, you can still, I guess, appreciate the diversity and the variety of people and identities and stories in a particular place, but still kind of gravitate, to sometimes gravitate towards what feels comfortable, or what feels more familiar for, for that sense of home. Which I think everybody, or most people are looking for at some level. Kitsa, what about you, you talked about your appreciation of the diversity of Toronto, but before you talked about that you talked about the loneliness that you were encountering when you had, you know, in the first little while after you had just arrived in Canada. And you know, Canada is this frozen northern country and we're not known for being, you know, super emotional, or effusive people. And I'm just wondering if, well are you willing to share? What is your, how have your perceptions of the people in Canada? How have they evolved over time?

Kitsa: Yeah, I think one thing that I have learned to do, I would see - I'm an architecture student. So, I think I tend to get very picky about the most random things, like oh a new condo came out. It looks terrible. I don't like it. And so, I think, the only thing that really draws me to this city is its people to be honest. Like, thinking back to where I came from, I think one of the most - anyone talking about diversity, it's one thing to refer to diversity in terms of the people. I think the landscape, at least in the GTA is not very diverse. It's just flat and there's like pretty much nothing happening which was rough to adjust to. I remember driving to London, Ontario and for a solid three hours you are driving on a straight line. The sun was up, it was like 10pm at night. I'm like what's going on? And so, I think over the last three years, I have been sort of caught. I've been caught in between this tension of really feeling discontent with being in Toronto, but also really admiring the fact that in Canada, and I think this is not a common thing. You can really be 100% Canadian and one 100% true to your culture and where you come from. And I think that's what gets me really excited about Toronto. That's what really draws me back to this city, is that you get to meet many different people who are just as Canadian as whatever background they're from. And one of my favorite places, I think, is Chinatown. I just love getting through Chinatown and a lot of good food. But yeah, so yeah, in response to being lonely, I think everyone goes through it. It's just different people learn how to deal with it differently. And I do recall in first year, meeting a lot of different people. And that was a lot of excitement. Like Rebekah said, I think it kind of goes away. And so, in second year, I had to, in a sense learn to, have to relearn what relationships mean in the context of Canada, I think. And so, when I came here, I was coming with expectations from back at home. And I wanted, being I wanted my relationships with people here to look like what they did back at home. And so, the different value systems. I think a very simple one is that when you ask someone out back at home, you're like, “hey, let's catch up.” It's given that you're taking care of them. So, you pay for the food, it's all on you. But I think the first time I went to a restaurant with someone near the end and we were getting the bill. The person was like, “yeah, we're splitting the bill.” I'm like, then why did you ask me if you wanted to me pay for my own food? It was so weird. But I think once I learned what the culture was, and once I allowed the culture here to change some aspects of me, then I was able to appreciate it more. And I was able to appreciate a lot of these people who really did care for me, but because my, let's call it a love language. My cultural love language is very different than the cultural love language people use here. Yeah, it was just a bit of a learning process.

John: That's, that's really rich. And by the way, it's been so long since I was in a restaurant, I just want to say that I would pay for all of you just for the chance to be in a restaurant, happily.

Kitsa: I'll keep that in mind.

John: Yeah, no, listen. This is recorded, so you can hold me to it. And Rebekah and Sabrina as I was listening to the two of you, and maybe I was listening for it to be quite honest, because I know a little bit more about some of your interests as they've evolved over the last four years. But you both talked about the importance of stories. In that little clip that Braeden shared with us, Rebekah, you talked about how exciting it was to be around so many different people and their stories. And Sabrina, you talked about wanting to develop the skill of networking in order to be able to talk to other people and to exchange stories with them. And I guess I'm wondering from the two of you, if your appreciation for stories, you know, how has that evolved over the last four years?

Rebekah: I think that's a really interesting question. Because I've always loved talking to people. And I used to joke that if there was a job where I could get paid to travel and talk to people, that's like my ideal job. Because that's all I want to do for the rest of my life. But I've gotten to meet a lot of people from a lot of random experiences, like pre- COVID days, when you can actually meet up in person and like stroll into a random event. Like that was my favorite thing was to just, you know, meet other people and just hear more about like their lives and like what makes them themselves. But I think another thing that I've kind of learned more about storytelling is like learning more about the history of like how stories kind of evolve. Because when I came to Canada, I was really ignorant to most of Canada's history, didn't know anything about it. And I could feel things like through osmosis. Like as I was navigating, you know, life in Toronto, like, Oh, that feels different, or that feels weird. Like picking up on these different nuances, but not really having like the knowledge or the receipts for lack of a better term of like why those interactions and why those encounters kind of situate themselves in that way. And I think through like coursework and through talking to other people and learning more about how they are situated in this place, I've kind of learned more about how history informs storytelling and how people go about expressing themselves with other people. So that's been really eye opening to see kind of coursework and like real life work overlap in that way.

John: Sabrina, what about you? What's your, how has your relationship to stories evolved over the last few years?

Sabrina: Yeah, I think my reverence for stories has only grown over time as exemplified by the fact that I keep reapplying and working as the Hart House Student Podcaster. And also, have just completely changed my career path towards like collecting, gathering and distributing stories. I think I've kind of come to a realization that like pretty much everything is a story. The way that we live our lives are informed by stories that we tell ourselves or that we've been told by others. And that's where a lot of sense of community and identity and self-exploration can come from. And also, I've seen what happens when you completely, when you create structures that are completely devoid of stories as well. And it kind of just turns into like goal-oriented, trying to hit the next milestone, but like not really knowing why. And I think there's like, there's not a lot of life in that. So yes, my respect and relationship with stories has grown a lot, I think, in the past four years.

John: So, Sabrina, you said something intriguing. So, let's stay with you for a minute. You, you mentioned that your career path, your career plans anyway, are changing. So, I'm going to ask each of you recap for us four years ago, what you thought you were going to be when you grow up, or what your plans were four years ago? And then tell us what your plans are now, and maybe account for that shift. So, Sabrina, you first. Four years ago, what did you think you were gonna do? What did you think all of your studies were going to lead to eventually?

Sabrina: I was dreading this question, because I feel like I'm gonna sound like a cliche. But four years ago, if you asked me where I was going, I would have looked you in the eyes, I would have told you that I'm going to become a criminal lawyer. And I'm going to work in the International Criminal Court in New York. And after U of T, I'm going to go to Harvard Law. And you'll live this like life helping people and like, I don't know, like taking names and like breaking down barriers.

John: Marry George Clooney, is that – or does - someone has that life already, I think.

Sabrina: [laughs] I think that that is someone else's life. Yeah, I just looked up Amal Clooney's whole biography and was like, wow, this could be me. And that is not what I would tell you today.

John: So, it's - so don't leave us hanging today. You would...

Sabrina: Yeah, I didn't remember. I didn't remember if that was the second part of the question. But today, in contrast, I’d probably tell you that I am very tired. And don't want to be in another academic institution for like, at least half a decade. So, I'm going to work in media and create audio and like, reconnect with plants and go on hikes, and hopefully get paid to do that, too. And just do like a bunch of things that make me happy on like a soul level. And like, take a nap too. That's kind of what I'm where I'm going now is to like restore my energy and take care of my body.

John: It is not the purpose of this conversation for me to give you advice, but if it were, [laughs] I would say taking a five-year break to reconnect to the soil and plants and yourself and build your soul could eventually make you a much, much better lawyer. And I say that as someone who took a number of years off between undergrad and law school. So, as I said, four years ago, and I've learned nothing in between, I keep saying it - Life is long. Nour, how about you now? Four years ago, you just told us on that clip that you were thinking about medical school, and you were studying Life Sciences? And tell us how that's evolved? You're now doing a double major in Immunology. And did you say Physiology? I forget.

Nour: Yeah, it was physiology.

John: Physiology. So where do your, how have your plans evolved over the last four years? And how do you account for that evolution?

Nour: Um, I was just listening. So, when I was listening to the audio recording of four years ago, I didn't actually remember that I had an interest in going for human biology. So, a lot has changed. I think when I started my undergrad studies, I thought of it all as a stepping stone to my journey into medical school. But it's not that anymore. And I think I came in with this blueprint. And as the years went by, this blueprint kind of changed. And now I want different things. And I was surprised to learn that I just love the science of it all. Like not just as a means to an end, but just in and of itself. And so, I'm hoping to start my master's in Applied Immunology this fall. And I'm really excited. And just to research. I think that's what really makes me so excited. And I really like talking about it. And I just feel very strongly that this is my calling right now.

John: Understanding that I've never taken a science class since grade 12, would, if I asked you to tell us what your area of or your research interests are, would I understand your answer?

Nour: I could try.

John: I am, I am very thick headed. So yes, you'll have to try, try really hard.

Nour: I came in wanting to be an OB GYN. I came into academia wanting to be an OB GYN and I had a very, like, I had an interest in, in children in the first few moments of life and in just the reproductive system of women. And, um, and I still do. And I just think I wanted to, like, do some research about the immunology of that. Like the immune system in relation to the uterus, the placenta. How, just how the microbiome affects fertility. And that's an area that's not very well researched. So, I think there's a lot of work to do there. And I want to be part of that. So, it's exciting.

John: It's, well, it sounds exciting and pertinent. And, like, you know, you - it sounds like a variation, but kind of a close cousin of what you were talking about four years ago. But a really important almost like a honing in on more of a focused way of doing what it is you wanted to do four years ago. Kitsa - What about you? And I remember four years ago, if I'm not mistaken, you were taking architecture related courses and hoping to get into the Daniels Faculty. And now you're a fourth-year architecture student? Am I right?

Kitsa: Yes, you are.

John: So, this would suggest that you are having some success in pursuit of your, your intention. Is that correct?

Kitsa: Debatable success [laughs]

John: Well, you tell us, you tell us. I don't want to put words in your mouth. But how have your, how have your aspirations evolved?

Kitsa: Yeah, um, I applied into the Daniels Faculty at end of first year. Got in. It was exciting. And since then, I've been in this weird situation of being in two years, and sometimes three years at the same time. So, I remember, I think, two years ago, I was like, I think it was last year, in my third year, I was taking classes with third years, fourth years, first years. And second year was basically taking the whole curriculum at the same time, and that was painfuI. But when I was coming to U of T, I felt strongly that I needed to take architecture. That was what I was aiming for. I'm glad that I got in. And I didn't quite know what I was going to do with it. But I think over the years, I've been drawn to storytelling, which a lot of people have been talking about in in this podcast. I think this year, especially. No, I just think of really random opportunities to tell stories and to listen to great stories over my four years at U of T that I would like to do some more of that and yeah, just tell stories. Not very specific. So, I'm hoping John, you can help me tune my answer so that people get something out of this.

John: Well, do you see architecture as a means of telling stories?

Kitsa: I think yeah. I think architecture is, and maybe to geek out about architecture for a bit, I'm more interested in architecture as a cultural object, as an object of shared meaning and what stories we tell through the spaces that we live in. And so that means that I'm drawn to certain types of architecture more than others. And I'm impressed about the more informal, the more organic. I think one of the things that really inspires me is that a couple of years ago, in a lot of different cultures, people designed and built the spaces that they lived in. And I'm always drawn that. Maybe I could end up doing some of that. So, I hope to apply for grad school in 2022. Because I need to finish my degree, and hopefully get in. But I think something that's become even more important for me right now is to, in a sense, create a platform for telling stories. And so just this week, I did a video. Like I did my first film, which was like a five-minute documentary on my background and, and on culture and on race and on why that is important. And it was being showcased during the Relevant Talks that were happening this week, the week of January 18th. And that was great. That was, that pushed me really hard. I stayed up a lot of late nights trying to get that going. And, yeah, that's what I’m trying to do now.

John: I'd love to see that if you're willing to share it after this conversation, I'd love to see. No, definitely, that would be amazing. And architecture, you know, like law, like medicine, it's a long-term commitment, right? Because now in order to practice, as an architect, at least in this part of Canada, I know, you have to have a graduate degree, right? It's no longer, I think years ago, it used to be a five-year undergraduate. And now you've got to have an undergrad and graduate degree. So, it's, you have to really commit to it and presumably love it, at least at some point, in order to make that commitment, right.

Kitsa: I love, I love architecture. I think I love this. I love space. I love how space defines and creates opportunities for people to connect with each other. I'm looking forward to that commitment. I think architecture really opened me up to seeing how objects can sort of be cultural markers and how I want to be part of that story. Or like, Yeah, can, creating that legacy through the objects in the spaces that we use. And I think - so architecture for me, I mean Nour has an amazing experience going into life sciences, and then really zooming in on this one specific area. I think, for me, architecture kind of opened me up to like, a million possibilities. And it's like, so what am I gonna do next? I think the options are limitless. Yeah.

John: Wow. That's exciting. And what about you, Rebekah, tell me about your options. Are they also limitless?

Rebekah: I'd like to believe so. We'll see how that actually pans out. But I guess if you'd asked me four years ago, um, it probably would have been in like the framework of working as like a linguist or translator. Or my parents really wanted me to come back and work for like a government agency and do like, you know, those kinds of analysis type of things. I'm realizing that's not something that I'm kind of reaching for as much. And I'm actually in the process of applying for a Masters in the journalism program. Because I really enjoyed the storytelling that I've gotten to do this year, and like the connections that I've made over the past couple of years in storytelling. So that's kind of where I'm at. But really recently, I think, maybe last week or so, I went to a Black Careers Conference online, that was hosted by the Rotman Commerce Student Association, and listening to some of the people, you know, talking about their trajectory, their, their careers, their platforms, and things like that. I encountered a consulting group, and I didn't know what consulting was. So, I was like, oh, I'll entertain this and see what they're talking about. But the more they were talking about their jobs, and like, how they get to problem solve and like travel and still meet a bunch of different people, I was like, am I now considering a career in consulting? Like, possibly, but not fully firm on that. But I also don't see myself having a career for like 40 years. I see myself like, pursuing these different like passion projects and getting a lot out of them, like for myself, and while also trying to like help other people. And then just kind of redirecting myself based upon like, where my whims go. So, I'm not sold on like being a journalist for 40 years, necessarily. I've just like Oh, maybe we'll try that out, see if it feels good. If it doesn't, then we'll try something else and see where that goes. Because I study history, and my parents really asked me, they're like, so what are you going to do with history? And I told them, I can do anything I want. Because I will be able to write research, critically think about all those things. And I think those are skills that I could apply to any kind of job. But kind of like what Sabrina was saying, like the idea of rest sounds really good. And I really would love to take part in that this year. But in this economy with this pandemic, um, grad school seems like the move because I'm not sure if I'll be able to find a job right after I graduate.

John: Yeah, and I cannot - listen, my heart goes out to everybody who's trying to figure this stuff out. Right now, in particular, there's lots of very accomplished people that have made a career out of consulting or at least have used consulting as an important stepping stone to the rest of their career. Um, I'm curious about, and Rebekah because I know that you are originally from the United States. That is your, your country of birth. I'm, and because as we record this, it happens to be the week in which the Biden Harris administration was, was sworn in. Thank God. And I'm just curious to know what, you know, at this point in your lives - I mean, U of T, university or not, I'm just curious to know, what are your perspectives on the world and how the world has been over the last four years? And how has that affected you? Just, you know, the events of the last four years. Could be the pandemic, could be, you know, political actors. Any number of issues, the climate crisis, which has really been attenuated. The heightening awareness of anti-black and anti-indigenous racism and violence. There are so many things that have really marked the world for all of us over the last four years. I'm just wondering, and Rebekah, maybe I'll start with you. How has the world affected the person that you are now compared to four years ago?

Rebekah: I think that's a really cool question. Because obviously, like 2020 was a whirlwind of a year and so many different things happened. And that's not to say that, like, other things didn't happen the years prior to that. But I think especially what I realized this year, looking back, but like the world, I mean, it's as cliche as it sounds. Like the world is a lot smaller than people tend to make it out to be. And there's a lot of issues that kind of translate across different boundaries and imaginary boundaries, and things like that. And something that comes to mind is like anti blackness. Like anti blackness is a thing that exists literally everywhere, across this entire planet. And so, seeing that kind of come to a head, especially over the summer, was really surprising to see that like, okay, maybe these are conversations that people are going to be more open to having. Maybe people are going to kind of not necessarily, will hopefully check their behavior, but also like, kind of check those assumptions and things that we've kind of just come to rely on as being fact without necessarily questioning where that comes from. Yeah, I've also like, you know, being an American in Canada, like I don't want to take up too much space, and not like kind of, you know conversation. But it's really interesting to see how Canadians sometimes position their own Canadian identity as like an opposition to like what Americans are like. Of course, America had its, all of its own issues happening over this last couple of years with the pandemic included. And I often hear like, oh, at least we're not like the Americans, or at least things are not happening here the way that it is there. And I'm like, a lot of these issues are also very deeply rooted in Canada's history. And they're also very intertwined. And so, I'm listening too, that has been sometimes like, kind of interesting, because even from an American context, like we don't learn too much about Canada, as like part of our history courses. So, there's an extreme lack of - ignorance, I feel like of where we come from on both sides of this coin. And they are a lot more connected than maybe people care to realize. And so, yeah, I just think that over the last couple of years, that's how my framework, I feel like I've just opened my eyes to how a lot of these problems are interconnected. Like, and a lot of them are deeply rooted in colonialism and like imperialist practices. And as a person who studied history, like that's something that I'm always thinking about. And that comes up in my own conversation. So, I think that's really impacted how I think about things.

John: And don't you think that Canadians can use that, that distinction between themselves and Americans as a bit of an escape hatch? Right, like, Oh, we don't have to face up to our own history, or our present practices of oppression, because of this ongoing comparison to the United States. It really is. You know, I think a lot of people fail to hold themselves to account because they have someone else they can point to. I'm curious, Nour, what about you? Someone who has, you know, lived on two sides of the world. And as you speak to us now, you're currently in the Middle East or in Dubai. But with so much that has happened in the world over the last four years, how has that affected you as you've lived your life as a student?

Nour: I think coming to Toronto, from the Middle East, I was mostly surprised by how people as individuals can be very - I mean, they can talk about whatever they want, right? They're allowed not to like the Prime Minister. They're allowed not to like certain things. They're allowed to advocate for social justice. They're allowed to say anything they want to say. And I know it sounds super like obvious to I think a lot of people listening but that this is the case because this Um, I think, like it's it just the way it is there. But in the Middle East. That's not the case. You know that transition, I found was very surprising, and in a good way, right? Because, um, I mean, there is, like, it's just very different I think and just being there, and being part of that and hearing all these different political views, and, you know, just made me feel like I'm being exposed to a whole different world of thoughts and rules, I think, about how to what you can and what you can't talk about…

John: Did the last four years seem particularly kind of tumultuous to you? Like, did you, have you had a sense of worry or, or kind of like existential angst, or? I'm just, I'm just curious to know, with so many dramatic political movements and economic movements and climactic issues, if you have felt those things affecting your ability to live your life, or do they seem kind of removed from you?

Nour: Um they did affect me. Because it's just a dramatic change, like in terms of everything. It's not just geographical, but also in terms of, you know, culture. Just, the weather. It was the first time for me to see snow in Toronto, just so many different things. And that huge transition is stressful. And I think a lot of us have experienced a lot of stress over the past four years, with everything going on. And yeah, I mean, it was it was something very different for me.

John: Sabrina, what about you? What about being a citizen of this particular globe over the last four years? Do you shut that off when you're focused on your schoolwork? Or does it all kind of blend together, and it's hard to escape the craziness that's going on?

Sabrina: Um, it does blend together. I feel like it would be disingenuous to say that I could shut it off. But I can - it's kind of like a yes and no, because I have a lot of privilege and access to resources. And that like, me for example, we've been in zoom University for almost a year now, or a couple months shy and like, I've had a fairly easy transition because of who I am as a person, but also because of like my financial status, and like my housing and all these things that other people don't have access to. So, I feel like even if I, myself were to say, I can shut it off. I don't know, I wouldn't want to also negate the fact that there are people who need more support and resources that they just aren't getting. And then it's, it's not, it's not an easy thing to kind of separate schoolwork from everything that's happening in the world. And I feel like a lot of workplaces and lectures and like even the university itself, is implying that, like, resilience is having the same output now as we had pre-pandemic. And I think that's, I don't know that is, is not taking into account that like, we're all like, this whole society is just made up of human beings, right. And we all are, like, super stressed and working through this kind of unknown time. So that's my answer, which is kind of all over the place. Because like, it's been all over the place, the experience has been all over the place.

John: Does that help at all? Knowing that, as you said, we're all going through this at the same time, given that we're also all very isolated, right? So, we can all, we can often normally say, Well, at least we're all going through it together. But it's hard to develop that sense of maybe going through it together, when we're all isolated in our own little rooms with our own little computers.

Sabrina: No, I agree. And it's like, it's kind of the post that I've been seeing mostly in response to celebrities being like, Oh, COVID is the great equalizer, and then Kylie Jenner is going to France. I mean, I'm like, I can't even walk to the grocery store. So, it's like, we're all in the same ocean. It's like the Titanic, right? Like some of us got on the lifeboats. And we're like, on the way to shore. Some of us are like, on that one door that Jack couldn't get some reason. And some of us are like, in the water, you know what I mean? So, it's like, we're not the same depending on where you are and where I am. And I think as like I relate to the rest of the world. I think it's part of why you were like, well, where are you going to go from here? And it's like, I'm going to rest and return to the land. I feel like there are ways in which I've been playing into a system that like, especially during the pandemic I'm seeing is not, it's not helping those who need those resources the most. Even in Canada, as much as we want to claim like, we're socialist and we do have like social safety nets, but it's still not. It's still failing a significant amount of people that I feel like would be easier to reach out to and help. And seeing the ways that like actual grassroots, like community movements have shown up for those people. And also the ways too that I've realized that like, the reason why I can pursue like, university and like, look at all these theoretical things and like, go on my computer and edit podcasts and stuff is like, even my own survival has been kind of offloaded onto other people, even with the like the fires in California and people not caring about like migrant farmers also, Canada, talking about like, Rebekah and how Canadians kind of ignore our own stuff, right. So, everyone's talking about the migrant farmers in California. Meanwhile, we have Trinidadians here and migrant workers that Canada was trying to kick out of the country with no support in the middle of a pandemic, right, so. And then we had like the Mikmaq Indigenous fishers on the eastern shore. And how all this stuff and me just realizing like, I don't have a connection to the food that I need to eat to like survive, right. Like a lot of my shelters, though, has to do with like other people and other institutions. So, like, due to, through work, I made friends with a Black queer farmer who's super cool. And like part of me returning to Earth is like literally starting to farm and like get back to like stuff that I need to survive that like I've been offloading onto other people, and also largely until like vulnerable populations as well. So that's been me just learning through the pandemic. Like you want to talk about essential workers are, you know, doctors who do get paid relatively well. But then also, nurses, like nurses in long term care homes aren't necessarily getting the support that they need. Personal support worker, also grocery store workers.

John: Grocery store workers, caretakers, the people responsible for all the cleaning protocols, right? I mean, yeah.

Sabrina: So I’m just sitting here up in my house, um, you know, not really worried about my finances. And I see all kinds of posts on Facebook of people who are like, I'm working mad hours at Loblaws, right? Or wherever. Maybe I shouldn't be paying rent, I'm working mad hours at insert store here. And like, you know, my managers just told me that like someone just tested positive for COVID. And then you send me an email, like, I came into work, and then they brought us into this room. And then they told us, and now I need to decide what to do. And I just feel like, yeah, a lot of things are happening in ways that they shouldn't be. And the people who should be, like respected not just in a performative way, but actually in like, a concrete way, are not being respected. Yeah, and I'm trying to figure out where I fit in that and how I can like change things. That was a long answer. I have a lot of thoughts.

John: Listen, it is a complex question and Kitsa, now I'm going to ask it of you. How has the world affected you? And your life as a student over the last four years? How have you managed to separate the world from your own life? Or have they blended together for you?

Kitsa: Yeah, I mean, I feel like I’d write a sort of like a hybrid or like a collage of everyone's experience before me right now, all of a sudden blended into one. I mean, the difference, moving from Nairobi to Toronto, to discovering that the world is so much bigger than I expected it to be, contrary to what Rebekah said. And then having to sort of like, pretend to bear the weight of all of that. And, and then dealing with, with my Blackness, which means a lot of different things to me coming from Africa to someone who's grown up in North America, and also means different things to someone in Canada versus the US versus the UK versus I mean - I think - I took sociology that was a class I was taking when we recorded the first section, and I'm really grateful for that class, grateful for that. If you ever listen to this podcast, I'm shouting you out again, because I remember I did it the last time. But intersectionality really, and I think something that I've been distressed about has been the way that we are socialized, or the way that we are taught to learn and believe the things that we learn and believe. I think, so this brief period of time, during the pandemic, after I finished watching the Social Dilemma on Netflix, where I had like this mini existential crisis and I was like, what if everything I believe and know is not me? What if I've been fed all of these things and that's just what I believe in? That's what I know? Sort of wrestling with that. I think I have been more overwhelmed than I would like to be, But I think at the same time, I have learned to be more grateful, to share gratitude. I have been overwhelmed because I think you hear about stories, you hear about people's experiences, and you feel so powerless, because you don't know how you can sort of begin to help and offer assistance or you can like, and I think when you hear one or two heartbreaking stories, you're like, Okay, I hope it goes well. But when you hear more than just two, and when this story starts to sort of pile on and you're like, wow, there's a lot of people going through a lot of different things. Though, I think the one thing that I would just focus on was the Black Lives Matter movement, that people were coming around during the pandemic. And I think I learned quite a bit from that because, for me, my relationship with race prior to coming to this country was non-existent. And my focus has always been on culture. And so, I think when things were happening, and when people were seeing things, I didn't know how to respond to that at first, because I did not have a type of a conversating, not knowing how to relate to that. And I think I went through this process of listening and learning and allowing myself to feel the extent of it, even though like, it's still somewhat a bit disconnected. And I think on to your comment, John, on Canada sort of offloading things because we are not as bad as the US. And I think that's what a lot of people like to see is that, hey, I'm, compared to this other guy, I'm decent. And I was seeing a lot of posts on Facebook, and they're like, I'm not that racist and, and a bunch of other stuff. But I think when we choose to really take upon other people's pain and let ourselves feel that I think it can change someone. I work at Starbucks right now. And so, every once in a while, I'll be in a store, and we will see some great people and we will see some not so great people. And I mean, oh wait, Brands... Sorry, I'll stop. But there's this training session we had last week, where we got this guy from the US. What is his name? I can't remember, he started the Home Boys initiative, if I'm not wrong. And industries, I think, and it's like I think it's a type of an organization that sort of tries to reintegrate people who have been previously incarcerated into society. And I think it's Home Boys Industries. And like, I think he's a, he's a priest or something. Anyway. So, this is what he said, he said that, when you go into the margins, when you're going to the minorities, when you're going to this group of people sort of being kept at the fringe of society, you're not going there so that you can change them. You’re going there so that they can change you. And that really blew my mind. Because I think that's the first thing I say even at our recap series that I want to change the world. But the truth is, the world needs to change me, and I'm the one that needs to change. And so that's how I've been processing and responding to a lot of these things. Yeah.

John: Wow. I just want to say I want to be all of you when I grow up, I really do. I'm learning so much from each of you. I really, really am. I mean that quite sincerely. I want to ask about success and failure. I'm wondering if your perspective on what success means has changed over the last few years. And then I want to know, if you have learned about failure at all during your time at the University of Toronto, and I'll – it’s not even confessing, but I'll just say that when I was an undergrad, I you know, I read the brochure that said U of T was great and smartest people go there and the smartest people graduate from there. And then I arrived here at the University of Toronto as an undergrad, and everybody was way smarter than I was. And I ended up doing really, really poorly in some of my early classes. And things evened out over time, but I really did have to kind of redefine what success and failure looked like for me over the course of my time at the University of Toronto, and I'm wondering if any of you have any thoughts to share about success and failure and how your understanding of those concepts have evolved over the last few years,

Rebekah: I would say for me, I think I've learned to kind of just like stay in my own lane, if that makes sense. So, like, not trying to compare myself as much to like other people, but comparing myself to like what I know that I'm capable of. So, the success for me would be like, turning in the paper that I feel really good about, and like, also getting a good mark back, but knowing that, like, I actually like worked on it. And then there's papers that like, I know, that I haven't worked really hard on and that I get marks that reflect the work that, like the energy that or the lack of energy that I put into those papers. And that kind of, you know, makes sense to me. But I'm also a residence Don. And so when I talk to my students about like, success and failure at New College, it's like, you know, finding things that you're really passionate about, those are going to be things that you tend to put more energy into, and you'll see more success in those areas. And then things that you maybe are not as passionate about you might not spend less energy on doesn't mean that you're necessarily bad at it, it just means you're not as passionate, and that might sometimes be reflected in how marks work. So, I think when students are choosing programs, I think it's important to pick something that you're passionate about, something that you actually enjoy, and like want to study because I remember first year I was taking an economics course, and I didn't understand it. Didn't like it, didn't want to like actually put energy into it. And that really reflected in my grade. But, you know, I realized that that path that I thought I was set out to be on, that I had come here for, was not actually what I wanted to do, was not what was meant for me. And so, I kind of redirected myself into a place that I actually felt more successful because I was, I felt good about the work that I was producing. And I felt good about, you know, how it made me feel, and it opened my mind to things. So that's kind of like where I'm at with success and failure. It's like a personal journey for me and try not to compare myself as much.

John: Yeah, and even finding something that you're passionate about, that in and of itself is success of a kind.

Rebekah: Absolutely.

John: Anybody else have thoughts on success and failure now that you are veterans at the University of Toronto, Nour How about you?

Nour: Um, well, my dad always told me that sometimes one step backward means two steps forward. And I really believe that and when I struggled with school, I told myself that I was going to measure my progress, not by my GPA, or what marks I was getting, but by just how much I was learning. And that was a game changer for me. Because this is what university is about inherently, it's about learning and just reminding ourselves, I'm just learning that that's what it truly is. And, you know, I had to let go of preconceived notions of who I was and what was expected of me and to understand that I'm a work in progress. And sometimes things will take a detour and my, you know, our paths are not linear. And while this is uncomfortable, it also enables us to build resilience and growth. And that really stays with us for a long time to come I think.

John: That's great. Kitsa, any thoughts on success and failure?

Kitsa: Um, I have learned to take them both. To accept both really high highs and really low lows and to keep going. Yeah.

John: And you need both.

Kitsa: And you need. Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't. I guess you need both.

John: Like, I mean, in the sense that if you've never experienced failure, you can't really appreciate success.

Kitsa: No yeah, definitely. I think I have seen people, really, and I have struggled with bad results, I think. And sometimes it feels like you put in a lot of effort and a lot of energy into something and it just doesn't come through. And I think I've learned to be at peace with myself. There's a question I asked myself in second year, and I was like, hey, if you were to fail everything for the rest of your life, would you still be enough? And that was a difficult question to ask. But I think I came to the conclusion that if the answer is yes, then I can move forward. I can move forward knowing that my worth to myself is not dependent on the results that I'm getting. And then maybe I will get great results. Maybe I'll get terrible results. But I am enough. Yeah.

John: You’re enough. Sabrina, what about you, success and failure? What are your thoughts?

Sabrina: Yeah, I think I think I had a similar reaction to you. Or it's like, you come to the University, and then you feel like, you don't belong. Like everyone else is so much more prepared. I think what helped me in relation to how that manifests in failure is once I started talking to people, and not just other students, but also like, relationships I had with profs and like, actual like faculty, and they would also be like, I don't know what I'm doing. And I'm like, what do you mean you don't know what you're doing? You are like, 10 years older than me, like established in your career. Like, if you don't know what you're doing, like, when am I gonna know what I'm doing? And I think it's helpful to remember that it's like, I feel like no one really knows what they're doing. And we're all just trying to figure this out like one day at a time, whether you're 18, or 25, or 38, or 42, or whatever, or wherever you are in your degree, I think failure too is a learning opportunity, particularly about yourself. I think you get a lot of messages coming into an institution like the University of Toronto about how you should study and how much time you should spend on things and where your GPA should be at if you want to go somewhere else in life. And I think what was super helpful when I would face circumstances where I didn't, the word I'm thinking about is in French, and not in English, but where I didn't -

John: Impress us. put your mind to good use.

Sabrina: This happens every time. It's the word, réussir, I always -

John: Succeed.

Sabrina: Sure, yeah, to succeed - or not - where I haven't succeeded is looking up uncommon ways that other people have gotten to like where I wanted to go. So like with my example of like Harvard Law, if you don't have a 4.0 GPA, and you can think to yourself, like that's what you need. Like, go research other ways people have gotten into like top law schools, if that's really what you want to do. But you feel like you've strayed off of that path, because there's always that one person that's like, I don't know, I just kind of walked in and like, I went to class, and then they enrolled me. So now here I am.

John: Yeah, and they gave me a full scholarship. And here I am. Exactly.

Sabrina: Yeah, yeah. And then thirdly, I think, something I struggle with even today is like, just because you say something, and you tell people you're gonna do something you set your mind to do it, doesn't mean that you're not allowed to change course. Like it's not set in stone. I have problems with that. And like, everyone's gonna think I'm a fraud if I changed my mind. No one cares.

Nour: Yeah, you feel like you'll disappoint them, right? I feel the same way.

Sabrina: Yeah, no, exactly. And I think it reminds me that it's like, no one cares about the trajectory of my life as much as I necessarily think they do or judging me as much as I necessarily think they do. And I know like, like I, especially families can be overbearing, and like this may not really be someone who's like parents are like banking on like your life to be a certain way. But I'm talking about like, even just like friends and acquaintances, like someone that I talked to once on the first day of class, and I'd be like, well, I told them, I was going to be a lawyer. So, if I run into them five years from now and find out that I'm something else, they're gonna think I'm a fraud. Like that is not a rational thought. That's my advice.

John: So speaking of advice, and this is where I want to end, I wonder if very, in fairly quick order, each of you could give a word of advice to yourself before you started school four years ago. So think back to when we spoke, and then a few months before that, when you were just about to embark on your studies at the University of Toronto, but knowing what you know now, give a word of advice to that younger version of you.

Rebekah: Younger Rebekah, I would tell her to not talk so much and to just listen, because I love to talk. I could to talk to a wall. But you know, just take that time. Listen to what other people have to say before you jump in with your thoughts. Still working on that.

John: So Kitsa a word of advice to younger you.

Kitsa: Yeah. Sup Kitsa. You're cool. No, I'm kidding. Ah, yeah.

John: You're allowed to say that!

Kitsa: I mean - debate- Okay. You're gonna be okay. You're gonna be okay. And treasure, the friendships and the relationships that you have now. If, and if they don't last forever, even if they're not what you thought they would be.

John: Nour, what about you, advice to yourself four years ago?

Nour: I would tell myself to please talk to my professors one on one. I would want to go to office hours and get to know them. And I think this is especially important when the time comes when you need a recommendation letter. But not only if you need a recommendation letter, I think in and of itself, it's a very enriching experience to speak to your profs and, you know, they were once in your shoes, and a lot of them are very, or they're very happy to help. And I think I urge anyone listening to take the time and, you know, get out of their comfort zone. And especially if you need a recommendation letter. I personally struggled to get some people to write for me. So, I would go back and I would talk to my professors.

John: Very practical and very valuable advice for everybody. But particularly for the younger. Nour. And what about the younger Sabrina?

Sabrina: Yeah, if I could speak to myself, four years ago, I would probably tell myself to, or I’d definitely tell myself to share my struggles and open up to where I was having issues, especially as a fourth year like navigating my own studies and the university as a whole. I think speaking to failures that I, that wanting to not appear like a fraud and wanting to feel like you fit in, I think makes a lot of people feel like they can't talk about where they are failing or are struggling, because then they don't want people to think that they're struggling like a struggling person. But I think, where I did fail, or where I did need, or where I didn't succeed where I wanted to, it would have been less painful and less permanent, if I was just like open about it. And I reached out to people and I was like I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know what's going on, please help me. And I learned that the hard way. So definitely be more open about when you need help.

John: That's great advice from you. And from all four of you. You know, just recently, the film director Michael Apted passed away at the age of 69. And he was famous for a series of films that he made called the Seven Up series. And he was based in the UK. And he had a group of children that he interviewed, the same group of children. He interviewed and filmed them and did a documentary about them every seven years. So, when they were 7, when they were 14, when they were 21, 28. And he did that all the way up into their, I think into their 40s, 50s, at least. And then he passed away just recently, and in tribute to him, and I may not hold you to this, but I'd love it if you would all come back. in four years.

Kitsa: Let's do it!

Nour: Yeah, let's do it!

John: So that we can, so we can find out where you are. And we could check in on things like success and failure and give advice to, to the 2021 version of you and all of those sorts of things. And wherever you are, I hope that you are healthy and happy. And that you're smiling more than you're not. And I'd like to thank all of you for your time. You're being, you've been so generous with us. And on behalf of everyone at Hart House. We're very grateful.

[outro music plays]

Rebekah: Thank you for listening to this week's episode. I would like to extend a sincere thank you to John and the team over at Hart House for inviting us to participate in this conversation a few years ago and for agreeing to join us for this reunion piece. To Kitsa, Nour and Sabrina for reflecting on their experiences over these past few years. And of course, our amazing producer Braeden for interweaving this audio time capsule. Be sure to check out our other episodes @harthousestories on Soundcloud and Instagram and follow us on Twitter @hhpodcasting. Take care.

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