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prosperdemeter2 · 3 years

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This is going to be an unpopular opinion but...

I feel like the people who complain about MCU Spider-Man only being Tony Stark Jr. have missed the entire point of the MCU Spider-Man movies. It's a lot of discourse coming from the Marvel gatekeep fans that dislike how popular things have gotten. The... "I liked it before it was cool" fans that are super upset that all these young people are into something they also like (instead of seeing it for the positive it is - more merch! More content! Easier to find things about it! And more people you can chat with about things! It's great!). Everything HAS to be an argument over which Spidey’s been better because we can't just let people enjoy things.

But my point.

In Captain America: Civil War Spidey has a very small role to play and a lot of it is a supporting one. But the entire point (in my opinion) of Tony Stark having proof that Spider-Man already exists in New York is to show that Peter Parker would be a hero even without Tony’s tech. The tech is just there to give him the suit (which, I get it, people are salty Peter doesn't have kick ass sewing skills 🙄). It's also stated in their first meeting that Peter makes his own webs and his own webshooters. So he may not have got to the point where he made his own suit but this kid was smart and talented and capable (and younger than both Tobey and Andrew's Peter - approx 14 in CW compared to 17 and college aged).

In Spider-Man: Homecoming Peter rocks that Stark Tech suit. But he also hacks it. He also repeatedly makes phone calls to try and get Tony’s attention to a problem he thinks is worse than it seems on the surface. He's 15 and he feels things like a 15 year old. But okay, I get it, you're mad that he has Tony Stark as a mentor instead of Uncle Ben (so am I but mostly because I want Uncle Ben and not because I'm really mad about the mentor thing). Oh? Wait? That's not it? It's because... he's not expected to figure it all out on his own?

Only that's where you're... kind of wrong. Aside from Ned, Peter rarely received any help against Toomes at all. And it wasn't because Tony didn't care it was just because Peter was 15 and Toomes was good at hiding things.

My big point - big big point - about HOCO is that Peter doesn't beat Toomes (Vulture) until AFTER Tony takes the suit away. He doesn't beat him with the help of SI tech. He beats him AS SPIDER-MAN. There's even the iconic, stuck under a building, "come on, Spider-Man" scene where Peter realizes that he needs to be BE this hero in order to save the city. And not in a big way like Tobey or Andrew always was - Toomes wasn't trying to destroy New York. But he WAS selling weapons to people across the city to hurt dozens of others. Peter was literally being the friendly neighborhood Spider-Man we all want him to be. And he did that. Without a suit. Without any tech that wasn't of his own invention. And he even saved the bad guy's life. No one died that day.

But, okay, whatever, that's not your problem either. It's Far From Home. Okay, let's break that down.

Peter helping out SHIELD? I mean I get it but also there's literally a cartoon where that happens and no one complains. He also does it a few times in the comics. Oh wait, no it's the Tony Stark connection again. I get it. You don't like Tony Stark. Chill, guys, it's not that out of character. Peter Parker always looked up to the guy.

"He needed Stark's tech to beat Mysterio". Uh... tell me you didn't watch the movie without telling me you didn't watch the movie.

The entire point of FFH - as far as I took it - was Peter learning to trust himself again. He falls again and again and again for Mysterio's tricks because he doesn't listen to himself. He doesn't trust his "Spidey Sense" (aka Peter Tingle lmao) because of PTSD due to the events in both Infinity War and Endgame. The only way he beats Mysterio in the end is by TRUSTING HIMSELF. When he closes his eyes in that scene against the drones? He's not using tech to figure out where they are - he's using his Spidey Sense. When he stops Mysterio from shooting him? He's using his Spidey Sense. The entire story of FFH was that he was relearning to trust in his own powers and instincts and believing that he was still a hero even after having let down his hero (in his own mind).

I think I see the real issue. Other than the one i pointed out where we're mad what we liked is now more commercialized and popular - MCU Peter Parker has a pretty strong support system. He doesn't only have Aunt May but he has Ned and MJ, Tony Stark for a bit, Happy Hogan, etc. He works hand in hand with the Avengers.

All I'm saying is you can't argue that MCU Peter Parker is a terrible Spider-Man because he works with Tony Stark and then choose to ignore the fact that he beat both of his villains in both of his solo movies without using that tech.

And this post isn't to say that Tobey and Andew were terrible either. They were and are all great Spider-Men in their own unique ways (and let's be honest, Into the Spider-Verse was 100% the best Spider-Man movie out of the bunch and Miles Morales deserves a lot more love).

Why is it so hard to let people enjoy things without turning into a fandom discourse fight?

#Spider-Man #spider man #spiderman #peter parker #mcu #i ranted and i am supposed to be asleep #dont come at me #I'm just so annoyed with the comments #theyre all good #just let people enjoy things

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wrenhyperfixates · 3 years

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Loki Series Thoughts—Glorious Purpose

Ok, I’m always nervous about posting my thoughts, but here we go. Spoilers ahead of course!!! (Disclaimer: Any gifs or images are not mine.)

Let’s start out with the episode’s name: Glorious Purpose. I know some people were a bit miffed about the emphasis put on the line, but I actually thought it worked well. It’s not so much that Loki actually believes in this “purpose,” but rather he is clinging to what he’s been told his purpose is. And by the end of the episode, he’s finally working through some of the things he’s been hurt by, abandoning what he’s been forced into and ready to be who he wants. Granted, it’s still going to take some time for him to come to grips with all that has happened, but I’m excited to see the journey.

The TVA. They undeniably suck. Whether or not it will be addressed directly, they are the (or one of the) antagonists in the show. What they are doing is, frankly, tyrannical. Three “time keepers” have taken it upon themselves to force countless versions of time and people into one single stream. And you know what? They can’t control that timeline. Not like they want to. As much as Loki’s line about “the weak” applies to himself, it applies to the TVA, too. It’s a facade of control that they cling to; if they truly had the right, the ability, to control time, everyone would follow their path. There would be no variants. Now, I could write a whole separate analysis on the MCU’s explanation of time travel. It’s convoluted and in a large way doesn’t make sense.

I’d like to talk about Loki’s characterization. I am, in a word, relieved. From the trailers, Tom seemed to be over-acting, something rather strange for someone so good at conveying deep emotions through nuanced actions. Now I believe any exaggerated lines from the trailers are just Loki trying to separate himself from who he’s been told he is, and trying to reinvent himself. I don’t think that’s a bad thing either; they’re not rewriting Loki, he’s just growing in a new way. And though this way is “new” I think it will be similar to what we’ve seen before. From what we’ve seen so far, there is good continuity, and they are addressing things about Loki that should be addressed in canon.

Loki projects. Most notably in the Avengers, but also a bit in Thor 1 and The Dark World, a lot of Loki’s lines can be applied to himself, though he is talking generally or towards another group. What comes to mind is actually something he touches upon again in the series. The illusion of freedom. And though it is not said that line in particular is him thinking of himself, it can be inferred based on his admission that the line in the gifs above apply to him. Also that little gesture when he says “weak” breaks me. He’s hurting so much.

Loki is not a villain. He may think he’s one because everyone else is telling him that, yet we’re already seeing it brought up that it’s not true. I can only hope that we’ll see Loki state this himself later in the series. He was largely forced to do what he did. It is not his fault, so how can he be a villain?

Loki cares. Tom’s acting is just *chef’s kiss* Seeing his mother’s death hurts so much. I love that his first response is denial. Loki is thrown into something he’s never known about before, being shown things that, to his knowledge, have never happened. But then when he’s had a few seconds to wander around the TVA on his own terms, he’s more come to grips with all that’s going on. So, when he’s by himself and see’s Frigga lying there, dead, it gets to him. Then seeing Odin still call him his son, he feels the slightest glimmer of hope, but also regret; he already knows in the back of his mind that he’s not actually going to get that. Loki’s living from second to second, trying to hold on. He probably thinks this ends with his death. (I do have issues with that Odin scene in context of Ragnarok but that’s more a tangential aside, so I’ll gloss over it for now.) Then seeing Thor and himself acting like brothers again is heartwarming. So just when he’s feeling uplifted, Thanos comes into the picture. He realizes how much control the titan still had over his life; he never really escaped. And in the end, Thanos made good on his promise. And that is terrifying! And he laughs at it. It’s a sad sort of laugh, one that’s slightly crazed. Loki feels that no matter what he does, it ends in pain. By the end of seeing all that, he is a man broken. Rather, more broken than he already was.

Loki is struggling. That’s nothing profound; it’s obvious. But where it really stands out to me is actually in a part I originally thought to be out of character. I am referring to “What if I was a robot and I didn’t know it.” Upon closer inspection, I realize it’s actually that his perception of himself has been so thrown that he really isn’t sure about his own chemical makeup anymore. Odin and Frigga keeping from him that he’s a frost giant made him so unsure of himself, he thought he might not even be a living being.

Nervous tics. Was I the only one noticing his leg bouncing when he talked to Mobius? And what about that scene when he’s sitting on the steps? He begins to pick at his hands. Note, that’s something he did in T1 after finding out he was a frost giant and while confessing to the Warriors Four about how he was the one who told the guard of their trip to Jotunheim. Just a little detail I really appreciated. (If anyone has gifs of any of these things, feel free to share :)

Mobius. I’ll be honest, I’m a bit undecided. I’m hesitant to say he’s evil. After all, we haven’t seen that much of him yet. However, I will say he is unscrupulous and manipulative. His questions weren’t to help Loki work through his trauma. Mobius was trying to goad him into helping, and likely was trying to gauge how much this Loki is like the variant he’s tracking. When Loki makes any admission of his feelings, it’s something he already knew, not a conclusion Mobius helped him reach. Mobius mocks him a bit and pushes his buttons because he sees Loki as a means to an end, and wants to know how easily he can get him to work with him. And what strikes me is how similar Mobius’s deal is to Thor’s deal in TDW. Thor doesn’t offer Loki freedom, he offers revenge. Mobius’s deal is just another variation of this. He can’t offer “salvation” but he can offer something “better”. Working for the TVA really isn’t better, though. So what does he mean? Well, I think he means a chance for Loki to prove he’s a hero. I hope as the show progresses it’s addressed that Loki doesn’t have to prove himself to anyone. That’s what he’s been doing his whole life, but I want Loki to see for himself that he doesn’t have to.

Miss Minutes. Propaganda. Plain and simple, it’s propaganda. Besides the way it praises the “time keepers” as amazing saviors, necessary to keep the world in order, it’s essentially saying “don’t think for yourself.” The whole point of the video is “the time keepers are great. The TVA is flawless. Trust us to decide everything. You have no autonomy in the world we want, so surrender your free will. Submit to the system we’ve decided is perfect and everything will be just fine.” Of course, by “just fine” they mean the variant will be pruned and the timeline will keep going as the time keepers see fit. The animation style was great though! It really fit.

The infinity stones. I think their inclusion makes sense. If you remember from Endgame, the stones being in the right place in the right time keeps the timeline from branching, and thus prevents the multiverse from being created. Likely, the time keepers used the stones to make their “sacred timeline.” Naturally, any variant time stones would cause a problem. That’s why they have so many extras. But think about how pointless so much of what happened seems. Nat, Gamora, Vision, Tony, everyone who was snapped, everyone who was left. So, literally the entire universe was flipped upside down for paperweights. It really puts Thanos’s pursuit of the stones into perspective, doesn’t it?

The cloaked figure. I think there’s some misdirection going on here in one way or another. Mobius says he’s chasing a Loki variant, then immediately it cuts to a scene with the cloaked figure. Our minds are likely to assume that is the variant then. But they don’t actually say it’s Loki, so I’m inclined to believe it’s not. Though, I don’t have enough information to say who I do think it is, I could make a couple of educated guesses and say Mephisto (he certainly interacted with Loki in the comics, plus there’s the stained glass window) or Sylvie. Well, whoever Sophia Di Martino’s character is. I know she was previously listed as Sylvie on sources such as IMDb, but that has since disappeared. But why would you have a “young Sylvie” (Cailey Fleming) without an older version? There is speculation Di Martino’s character will be Lady Loki, but I hope this won’t happen. If they make Lady Loki her own character, I doubt we’ll see Variant Loki get to be fluid. Even if it’s confirmed on the record, it’d be nice to see actually happen beyond a piece of paper. And with twist villains being such a prominent force in modern media, I’m interested to see who our cloaked friend really is.

Time travel. Like I said earlier, this is a lot. But I can’t talk about the episode and not mention this aspect in at least a little more depth. I don’t like how the MCU deals with time travel. I think it’s an unnecessarily complicated mix of a number of different, already complicated theories. However, I think Loki will ultimately escape from the TVA and create a multiverse too difficult to prune (and maybe he’ll actually get to burn the place down too!) This will then tie directly into Doctor Strange 2. Do you guys know what that’s called? The Multiverse of Madness. Actually, in the Miss Minutes propaganda, they almost exactly say “will throw the multiverse into madness.” Will we get to (finally!) see a certain raven-haired god meeting Dr. Strange? And maybe even the Scarlet Witch herself? Well, I’m not sure, but right now I think it’s looking pretty good!

And some random things that didn’t really anywhere else:

Peggy is in the background?! My thought here is that Steve wasn’t supposed to stay with her. This made not only a Variant Steve, but also a Variant Peggy. We may not see Steve, but I bet he’s been taken care of too!! And who knows? Maybe there will be a cameo later. Otherwise, it might be something that was cut from the show, or just a fun easter egg of sorts.

The score was so good! It sets the mood perfectly.

Loki is a good fighter. Even if he’s overpowered, he finds a way.

Some of the humor didn’t land, but that might just be a personal thing.

So now my final thoughts. It’s their strongest pilot yet. So much emotion crammed into less than an hour. A lot of exposition, too, yet it didn’t feel tedious (Endgame I’m looking at you). And then we get to delve into Loki’s psyche, something that really appeals to me! Overall, 9/10. I hope the rest of the series is as good!

Did I miss anything? Was there something you were hoping I’d mention and didn’t? Or do you have something to add or (politely!) disagree with? I’d love to hear it all! Remember, fandom is a safe space to talk about, analyze, and debate about things you enjoy. My ask box is always open with anon on. Reblogs and comments are great too. Thanks!

Me after watching the episode:

#the loki show #the loki show spoilers #the loki series #loki series #loki analysis #loki odinson #loki laufeyson #loki friggason #the loki series spoilers #I know there’s nothing particularly profound here but here you go #*throws thoughts into the void*

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twh-news · 3 years

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Interview: Makeup Artist Douglas Noe on Loki’s Looks Through the Years & Creating Anew for ‘Loki’ [EXCLUSIVE]

Douglas Noe has been in Hollywood for three decades. An award-winning makeup artist, he’s worked on projects such as World War Z, Planet of the Apes, Spider-Man 3, I Saw the Light, and Birth of a Nation. On top of these impressive credits, he’s also been Tom Hiddleston’s personal makeup artist since joining the MCU in The Avengers, designing all of the looks for Loki’s subsequent appearances.

Noe has been nominated for three Emmys with one win, and five Makeup Artist and Hairstylist (MUAHS) Awards resulting in two MUAHS awards. His skills include creating making natural and period looks, prosthetics, hair, and tattoos.

Along with being the head of the makeup department for the most recent Disney+ series Loki, Noe is also creating looks for the new Netflix comedy series True Story starring Kevin Hart and Wesley Snipes.

We had a chance to chat with Douglas Noe about his work on Loki, The Avengers, the incomparable value of teamwork on set, and most importantly, Richard E. Grant.

Nerds and Beyond: So you started your Marvel journey with The Avengers, but what drew you to your field in the first place? And how did you get your start?

Douglas Noe: Star Wars was a huge influence to me as a young boy, both sketching and drawing, and a little bit of sculpting but not much. Cut to 1983, Michael Jackson’s “Thriller” comes out and I find a magazine called Fangoria on the newsstands where I can order blood and wax and pencils and fake hair. So, I started playing with these things. I was also taken with the horror movie craze that was happening in the early 80s — Nightmare on Elm Street and Friday the 13th, and others, obviously.

In High School, in 1984, I joined choir thinking I would get an easy credit, but my voice had not changed. So the choral instructor had been waiting for a boy soprano to do a theatrical opera presentation. So with that I sang the lead, I quit choir after that, because my peers were merciless, but, I learned the world of theatrical makeup which I hadn’t been introduced to.

I did years of theater. I went to a performing arts high school — it’s called Fort Hayes School for the Performing Arts in Columbus, Ohio — graduated, went to beauty school, and continued working in Ohio doing industrial, commercial, theater, and opera [makeup]. Worked for Maybelline and Revlon, got restless, worked in Cincinnati on my first film in the summer of 1990, it was July so 31 years ago, A Rage in Harlem. And my boss said you come to Los Angeles, I’ll make sure you get on your feet.

Nerds and Beyond: So you mentioned that it’s been about 31 years since your career started, what’s changed over the course of those 30 years in your field?

Douglas: How much time do we have? I’d say the biggest, biggest change would probably be the way we make these things now. Although another large change, more specific, would be the materials that we use. There’s a constant evolution and reinvention of almost all aspects of the materials that a makeup artist uses. That said, I have to shine a light on the way we do things now with the onset of digital and digital cameras. Shooting on film now has almost completely fallen by the wayside. Film was very forgiving, quite frankly, and now it’s not so forgiving. And because of that, the bar has been raised. The wonderful thing about this journey is watching my peers just get better and better and better, my colleagues rising to meet the challenge of not having anything to hide from with this new way we make films.

Nerds and Beyond: So, sometimes you kind of throw prosthetics to the wayside in favor of a more traditional makeup. How do you make that decision on which one to go with?

Douglas: That’s an excellent question. The decision is based purely on what are we going to see. That’s where I start, what is the lighting? I have a conversation with the director of photography and I find out what is the dynamic. Obviously, I know from the script whether it’s an interior or exterior, or if we’re exterior but we’re going to be on a stage, if it’s day or night. These variables all play into my decision as to whether or not I should rely on my theatrical experience and ability to paint 2D to appear 3D, or go ahead and make small prosthetics and put them where I need to put them and use actual prosthetics in lieu of paint.

That has everything to do with lighting, locations, logistics, and because most of his [Loki’s] wounds appear on his arm and some on his face in the Void, it’s all very moody and very dark. And again, the theatrical quality of the paint is not going to be altered by the changing light, it’s just going to react the same way the rest of the face is going to react. It’s purple light, it’s going to make everything have a purple hue. There was no accounting for any correction that didn’t need to be done. There wasn’t anything wrong with that. It’s real.

Nerds and Beyond: So, you did make up for not only Tom on Loki, but you helped plan out the looks for everybody?

Douglas: Yes, what I do is I surround myself with strong talent. It’s all about team. I designed Wunmi Mosaku, Gugu Mbatha-Raw, Sophia DiMartino, and Tom [Hiddleston]. Regarding the rest of it, Neil Ellis, both Dennis Liddiard and I, added to the elements of his scars and wounds, which you would only see in close-ups.

The rest of it, the parameters are set — Blade Runner to Mad Men — and stay in those confines. And obviously, I choose color palettes for the women and there are parameters set for the men, but then it’s about team. I’m a big one on a team and not putting my thumbprints on other people’s work, but rather build other people up so they feel like they own what they’re doing.

My team consists of artists that also have stronger resumes and quite frankly, skills that exceed mine. It’s the mutual trust that allows us to keep a high level of artistic integrity in every aspect of the job. It also means I get the very best from my team, and it shows on the screen.

So, I didn’t have every look in my hand. Dennis Liddiard designed the Mobius character and I had Ned Neidhardt run with Gugu and turn up the volume on some of the elements that she already possesses that we can play with. Her eyes and lips, I think Ned turned the volume on both. And because we’re shooting in order, it’s a progression in the makeup you did.

Nerds and Beyond: When it came to Sylvie and Loki, when you when you’re doing those, did you try to kind of plan them both to have any similar things to give them a Loki look?

Douglas: It’s a fair question, but the answer is no. So again, I think the characteristics and traits that were going to be similar among them, aside from wardrobe and costume hints, were all character driven. And I did nothing with the makeup and hair to try to make them look or even closely resemble each other.

Nerds and Beyond: I want to kind of back up a little bit to Tom in the first Avengers film. That was by far one of his most standout looks. Can you tell me anything about what went into the creation of that absolutely tormented, haunted look that he had throughout that entire movie?

Douglas: Yeah, and that’s probably one of the elements that, because the character has evolved, we kind of left with Avengers because by the end of Avengers, and we carried it into Endgame, he does have a bit of an edgier look in Avengers, and not many people pick up on it. But the reality is he’s a little sculpted in Avengers.

I remember sculpting his cheekbones and temples, and doing a little play on his forehead for when he’s in the cell on the Helicarrier carrier with all that overhead lighting. I did like a little devil horn shadow, which is so subtle. The only person who’s going to notice is anybody who looks back at it and having read this and knows what to look for, but it is so nuanced and so subtle. And that’s the only place I think we did that. But the rest of him is very much chiseled and sculpted, but it’s a light touch.

And I think, again, as he evolved through the Marvel Universe and into the other movies that was something that was easy to leave behind, because I think that look played directly into his evil desire to rule over Earth. We rested that design element with that storyline.

Nerds and Beyond: It’s very clear too and I’ve always loved looking at that, because I’m a huge fan of the character. I’ve always loved kind of comparing how he looked in that movie to the rest of them.

Douglas: You’re on to me!

Nerds and Beyond: I’m not! I swear [laughs] So, what’s your best method for making the actors comfortable in the makeup chair? And with the final outcome?

Douglas: It’s dialogue; listening, talking to them, talking to their representation, whether it be an agent or a manager, and doing my homework and doing my due diligence to find out what’s going to make them comfortable the moment they walk through the door. I do my homework on them. It’s not just IMDb, it’s an internet search. So, I spend some time on the web and find out who these folks are, and if I find out, for example, they’re not one that likes to talk a lot, well, the writing’s on the wall, we’re not going to talk a lot, we’ll cut to the chase and get to the point. But also, it’s about building a rapport and building a relationship. Also, knowing that, I’ve said this in previous discussions, knowing it’s necessary to get out of the way.

Like if, for example, I’m not a proper fit for somebody, I have to be plugged in, I have to be aware enough to understand that it may not be working before somebody says to me, “Hey, this isn’t gonna work.” So it’s just about being open, especially as Tom’s personal on these projects and running the department, knowing that I don’t get to do everybody. I don’t get to put my thumbprint on other people’s work. Because not only is that disrespectful, it’s very often unnecessary, because I hire good people. I hire contemporaries and peers. Truly, you’re only as good as your weakest crew member. I surround myself with good people.

So, take Owen Wilson, for example, it would have been wonderful to do Owen’s makeup, but there were times when he was not going to be shooting with Tom and I was going to need to be ready for Tom or available to Tom, so it didn’t make sense. So I never touched Owen, I had Dennis Liddiard design that look and run with it. And then Ned Neidhardt took over that look when Dennis had to depart. That’s just one example of not trying to do everything.

Another one was the Classic Loki. I wanted to do Richard E. Grant’s [makeup] so bad, I can’t even tell you. I’ve been a huge fan since 1987. I wanted so badly to bring that full circle, didn’t make sense. It just didn’t make sense. So again, I never touched him. It wasn’t necessary. Ned was always there. And I think the same thing happened to me on Ragnarok reshoots, which I ran in Atlanta again with Dennis Liddiard. I wanted so badly to do Sir Anthony Hopkins makeup, but it didn’t make sense. So I was happy to hand it off to Bill Myer.

Nerds and Beyond: Oh man, I loved Richard E. Grant in this show so much.

Douglas: He’s amazing.

Nerds and Beyond: He’s so good!

Douglas: He really is. And he’s that good in person. He’s just so fun and interesting and alluring and attractive. He’s such a wonderful, wonderful person and, of course, a phenomenal actor.

Nerds and Beyond: I was watching little videos that he posted and he just seems like the warmest person.

Douglas: You know, just one last tidbit about Richard Grant is he’s got wonderful stories and as he’s telling them he’ll often stop and pause and just laugh. Just laugh, not for the sake of the stories or for anybody that he’s telling the story to, but because recounting the story brings him true joy. So he’ll stop and embrace that joy. Oh, it’s so wonderful.

Nerds and Beyond: That’s so amazing to hear. What is the most memorable job that you’ve done?

Douglas: The most memorable … That’s a tough one because I have so many fond memories of so many projects. The first Avengers film was memorable because there was a buzz, there was a vibration, a frequency, that was in the air when we were shooting that. We kind of knew we were making something big and something special. I don’t think any of us knew how big or how special it would be, but that certainly is one of the most memorable and most special projects.

I’m pretty good about focusing on the positive aspects of all these things, regardless of how difficult the project may be for whatever reason. The pros always, always heavily outweigh the cons, but I have a lot of wonderful, memorable experiences. Another one, it’s the polar opposite only because of the conditions in which we shot, but Birth of the Nation was one of the most memorable and exceptional experiences of my career. I was on the wrong side of 40, had 25 years of experience, and had still never worked so hard in my entire life. We did a 50-day shoot in 27 days. So proud of the work we did.

It was 100 degrees with 99 percent humidity, we shot it in the summer in Georgia, in Savannah, so it was hot, humid, and just getting the makeup necessary to be on individuals to stay put was its own challenge. And then the other challenges only added to that. But Nate Parker, the director, writer, producer, and lead actor, he is a special human being. And he was inspiring from start to finish. Usually, the first people in are the teamsters, transport department, and usually I’m second. He beat me in almost every single day. He’s in three hours before he needs to be. That was a very special experience.

Nerds and Beyond: Finally, are you excited about the news of Loki Season 2?

Douglas: I’m beyond thrilled! I invite being in the dark a little bit, I kind of like surprises and I like not knowing, so I suspected, but hearing the news confirmed, I was thrilled, naturally. What are they going to dream up? This is amazing. How do you top season 1 of Loki? That’s the burning question.

#loki #loki series #douglas noe #interview #article #nerds and beyond

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imperiuswrecked · 3 years

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To me, it doesn’t make sense to make Magneto the main villain because it has been done so much before and it would connect it so much to the Fox Films. Also I think there is a GREAT laziness in writing Magneto especially in films. He generally didn’t want to kill all humans, subjugate them yes because he doesn’t trust them. Which isn’t a ‘good guy’ move in itself and he slips in and out of.

He legit murdered genocide I think when he was going to kill all humans. Like no.

I also think that the average cinema goer likes Magneto too much… or maybe that is me. It would also require them to recast the most famous faces of the franchises?

Like is anyone going to care if they recast Jean, Scott, Iceman, Rogue, Kitty, Beast even Mystique but Magneto? I don’t know. I have long been a fan of an actual Jewish actor playing Magneto but following Ian McKellan would be difficult for the casual fans to accept. I don’t think Fassbender left such an amazing impression.

Even my most average MCU fans friends (and god they love the MCU 😤 but I see past it) still talk about how much they want to see a Magneto solo film.

To me I would put the focus on their reveal and sentinels. Then again I thought they’ll go through Krakoa stuff. Like it turns out the mutants have been living on this Island etc

With the ‘simpler times’ comment I have to for the sake of my sanity have to think that it was because Pietro knew where he was. Things were clear to him, as much as it hurt he had his sister. The following trauma had not occurred. Again I don’t think this is true but I am trying to reason bad writing. He didn’t doubt his morality but was indebted and controlled. Shitty actions were out of his control.

I don’t read Avengers so I didn’t know he was shelved for so long.

I think the Trial of Magneto is trying to ride on the coattails of Wandavision because even though she’s not a mutant a lot of the internet was wanting Magneto to show up. So what is the best way to get those fans who wanted to see that? Set up a family comic book where they establish the family again because I guess the MCU fans heard they’ve changed their background and themselves didn’t like it.

I see the Trial of Magneto as something poorly thought out as they saw what the audience was interested in. The timeline kind of clashes uncomfortably with Inferno. Which makes me think it was wedged in there to ride the Wandavision train and undo the retcon on the side of the main storyline.

Thank you for reading my essay/rant

Ok so I'm going to first say you have a lot of great thoughts and great on picking up the whole forced feeling. You are right, it does feel wedged in there and it does feel forced because that's exactly what Marvel did.

The Trial of Magneto was supposed to be an X-Factor plot, it was Leah Williams next arc, here's an article link talking about her podcast: link (yes I know it's bleeding cool but I don't have time to listen to the podcast)

Leah Williams tells us that X-Factor was canceled because Leah's pitch for the Magneto/Wanda story for X-Factor, now called Trial Of Magneto, became such a popular pitch at Marvel but they thought the reader numbers for X-Factor wasn't big enough for this story, so they wanted it as a separate comic. And canceled X-Factor #10 rather than seeing it run as originally planned, with the Trial beginning in X-Factor #15. Williams says she only learned about the cancellation of X-Factor when she was writing #9, so as she had to finish the series quickly, squeezing six issues worth of story into those last two issues, calling it "cramped and rushed".

So I'm not a fan of Leah but the way Marvel treats it's writers has always been terrible so this cancellation doesn't surprise me. Could this be about W*ndaVision? It's likely, but it's more likely this has to do with Hickman bowing out. It's no secret literally everyone hated the retcon and I always knew it would be undone but I didn't think it would take 6 years but here we are.

Hickman leaving is a bigger thing, he stated in an interview ( link ) that he had planned Krakoa and X-Men to be a 3 arc story, and he wasn't allowed to move onto the 2nd arc because the clowns at Marvel liked the idea of Krakoa too much and I'm so mad because that's exactly the kinda behavior that annoys me with the fans, them thinking Krakoa is just a fun playground for the mutants to mess around with.

"Oh, plans have changed entirely," Hickman says. "When I pitched the X-Men story I wanted to do, I pitched a very big, very broad, three-act, three-event narrative, the first of which was House of X. And while this loosely worked as a three-year plan, I told Marvel upfront that I honestly had no idea how long the first part would last because there were a lot of interesting ideas that I had seeded that other creators would want to play with, and so, we left this rather open-ended. I was also pretty clear with all the writers that came into the office what the initial, three-act plan was so no one would be surprised when it was time for the line to pivot." Hickman continues, "However, I also knew that I was cooking with dynamite, and it was very possible that what I had written in House of X, and the ideas contained within, was not actually the first act of a three-act story, but something that resonated more deeply and worked more like Giant-Size X-Men, where it would represent a paradigm shift in the entire X-Men line for a prolonged period of time. So, during the pandemic, when the time came for me to start pointing things toward writing the second-act event, I asked everyone if they were ready for me to do that, and to a man, everyone wanted to stay in the first act. It was really interesting, because I appreciated that House of X resonated with them to the extent that they didn't want it to end, but the reality was that I knew I would be leaving the line early."

I'm so MAD because the thing I was predicting, that Hickman would have it come crashing down and everything would be revealed to be terrible and Mutant Death Sex Cult Island wasn't a paradise is never going to happen because the fucking CLOWNS at Marvel don't want him to move past it. I may have my personal gripes about some of Hickman's writing but we can't deny the man wrote one of the best if only the best Marvel Event with Fantastic Four/Avengers/Secret War.

As for the simpler times comment, like I have my theories that I wrote out here, and that's what I think is most likely but I do think Pietro's life has never been easy or simple once his adoptive parents died. Pietro could be drinking to a time before the Brotherhood.

I would love for a Jewish actor to play Magneto and any other characters who are Jewish. I would love for a Jewish writer to be able to write them too. However Ian's performance literally set him in the minds of the people as Magneto, not even Fassbender's bleh one note Magneto could compare. Imo the only reason people liked the younger Magneto was because he was young, handsome (? ig idk i dont simp for him) and they could ship him with young professor X (cowards. where is the old man ship???) But I feel like a new actor could definitely fill the role if they are Jewish and the writing was good.

Magneto's writing in comics... well I just wish we could have a Jewish writer for him. There's some great stuff for him but I feel like characters like him and Doom could be written better by non white/american writers.

Although by today's standards the og X-Men trilogy doesn't hold up I will defend the first two movies with my life simply because after Blade these movies opened up the idea that a good serious, non campy version where characters called Magneto and Cyclops were taken seriously. X2 in my mind was the definitive X-Men movie. Was it totally comic accurate? No, but it doesn't do what the MCU does, it doesn't treat the watcher like they need to have their hand held through all the military propaganda and "hints to the comics". Also side note; the reason no one cared about any of the other X-Men being recast is because all through most of the X-Men movies the focal story point has been Professor X vs Magneto. If they really want people to care about those characters/actors then we would need stories that focused on them. Not like how Storm barely had any character growth or plot in the og X-Men and even young Ororo got mishandled by the script. This is why I feel we should have "origin movies" for the X-Men that don't do what Wolverine Origins did and try to make a whole new cast but instead should use the stories as they are. If it was Kurt's story then we would see him join the X-Men, and have the other actors revolve around that. Same with each of the others, the X-Men work best when they are working off each other and each given enough screen/page time to shine. Unfortunately we all have our favorites, even movies and writers, so those are who are going to be pushed for fans to love.

Thank you for your long rant and sorry for my own long rant/reply.

#xmen #x men #comic talk #xmcu #magneto #erik lensherr #imp answers

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sagebaileyspeaks · 2 years

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So Spiderman No Way Home...Yeah...(Not a Review, but a Mini-Essay that was supposed to come out before the movie)

***As a disclaimer, I wrote this on November 21st, but had a lot of things that kept me from publishing it before the review, but I’m glad I was proven right at that we finally reached the end of the “origin” of the MCU’s Spiderman***

Alright, look—I have a full-time, salaried job now so I don’t necessarily have the same amount of bandwidth to review books and movies on the weekly like I used to however I will ALWAYS make time for Spiderman and both trailers have me incredibly excited for this installment in the franchise.

That said, I feel like there’s something about this new iteration of Spiderman that I really need to get off my chest because if this is really “the Endgame of Spiderman movies,” then there is a significant problem that the MCU has yet to address and that is: this Spiderman has yet to stand on his own.

And ***spoilers*** if the rumors are true and Tobey and Andrew will be making appearances then this Spiderman will continue to be a baby Bambi Spiderboy instead of your Friendly Neighboorhood Spider-MAN.

Now full disclosure, I’ve come to like Tom Holland’s Spiderman quite a bit. Of the four, he’s third in line behind Miles and Tobey and even though it comes right before Andrew he is just...leagues ahead in my opinion but I digress. I like this version of Spiderman, I think he’s sweet, I think he is the most realistic portrayal we’ve had of a young Peter Parker however the issue with this is that they have essentially aged him down to the point where he doesn’t truly seem capable of handling any issue of his own accord.

In his debut, Civil War, he’s recruited by Iron Man to fight against Cap but if you look at the bigger picture: Sam and Bucky stop fighting him aggressively after they realize he’s a child. Tony tells him in Homecoming that Steve could’ve laid him out but chose not to (although, given Spiderman’s strength we don’t know this to be true. This kid has much more physical power than people seem to realize.) And in said movie, his “origin” movie, he spends most of his time chasing the shadow of Tony Stark. He wants to impress Tony. He wants to prove himself to Tony. And while despite this motivation he still wants to do the right thing (which is why he continues to pursue Vulture) in the end, he relies on Iron Man and Stark tech entirely too much.

In his second movie, Far From Home, he wants a break from his responsibilities as Spiderman which is understandable considering he was snapped and fought against Thanos and his army for the sake of half the universe...except, up until this point the only conflict he’s had separate from the Avengers was the Vulture and as previously stated that had more to do with Tony Stark than he ever will. Now, this movie is a lot of fun and I love the ending in which Peter learns to trust in himself.

However, if the rumors are true and this is his last outing as Spiderman in his trilogy then it feels very incomplete. I won’t know how this story wraps up until I see No Way Home but instead of feeling like a hero’s journey, Tom’s series of movies have felt like an extended introduction to him becoming Spiderman. He feels like a hero who wants to be Spiderman, but hasn’t actually come up to task yet.

Take for instance Spider-Man (or Spiderman 1) we see Peter as a bullied nerd, we see him experiment with his powers and then we see his defining moment that takes him from “kid who got bit by a spider,” to “superhero who takes on the responsibility of saving New York.” This moment is, choosing to let a robber go and then Uncle Ben dying as a result. He goes to kill the guy, realizes that he is responsible and then takes on his role of the city’s protector.

#spiderman no way home #spiderman #mcu

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theawesomeloner · 3 years

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Chapter 5: Fight and Flight

Samantha could feel her eye lids growing heavy again and her head fell forward for a moment before shooting back up. She gave herself a little shake to try and wake herself up. She was determined not to fall asleep on surveillance, the last thing she needed was them seeing her wake up screaming.

She looked to the clock on the wall and saw she had been sat by herself for nearly two hours now. She wasn’t sure how much longer she could last before she would fall asleep, she just hoped they had been able to track Gareth down. But with how the Agent looked at her after she called them out for trying to hack into her laptop, she imagined even if Gareth vouched for her, they would still send her straight back home out of spite.

Who the hell does this guy think he is?

I can’t believe they’re pulling rank here

Samantha sat straighter in her chair at the return of the voices which had previously been missing the last 2 hours. The door handle rattled as it finally opened but instead of there being Agent Brown, she was instead met with someone new.

The man was in a back suit, short brown hair, another agent of some kind she guessed. His hair was parted to his left and the hair line receding slightly. He gave her a small smile as he entered, and only once sat down opposite her did he speak.

“Hello, my name is Agent Coulson,” He said. His voice was mild and calm but surprisingly it only made Samantha more suspicious. “I hope you don’t mind if I ask you a few questions.”

“I don’t really think I have a choice,” she said back, too tired to pretend to be nice.

“No, I guess you don’t,” he shrugged, giving another small smile. “I’m sure you know why you were pulled for further questioning today.”

“I imagine it has something to do with my last minute trip and the fact I only brought my ticket and applied for my ESTA this morning.” Samantha said, eyes flicking to the mirror again where she was sure the two agents from before were stood watching.

“You would be correct,” Coulson said, bring his hands up to rest on the table, clasped. “But I’m not here to talk about that.”

“Then what are you here to talk about?"

“I was wondering if you could tell me about the shooting which took place outside your home yesterday.”

The drastic change in conversation topic threw Samantha. She somehow managed to stop her eyes going wide in surprise but there was added tension to her shoulders which she knew the Agent had picked up on.

“Shooting?” She did her best to sound confused.

“Yes, there was a shooting reported outside your apartment complex as well as reports of a young woman being chased in the surrounding area,” Coulson said, his voice and face remaining impassive the entire time.

“I’m sorry, I wasn’t aware that had happened,” Samantha lied hoping he didn’t have cctv footage which undoubtedly showed it was her being pursued. “It must have happened after I had left for the airport.”

“It must have,” he gave her a tight smile and she knew that he didn’t believe her for one-second. Surprisingly though he didn’t persist, instead his line of questioning changed again, sending her for a loop. “Do you know a Keith Jennings? Born 5th of August 1958.”

“Yes, he’s my dad,” Samantha’s nails dug into her palms as an outlet for her frustration all the while keeping her face as impassive as the man opposite her.

“He’s also in the US, isn’t that correct?” Samantha nodded, not feeling the need to answer out loud. “He missed his flight back to the UK last week. Mind telling me why?”

Samantha felt her tongue turn to lead as no answers came forward. Her mind too sluggish from the lack of sleep and she was struggling to keep up with the twists and turns of the conversation.

“Is it safe to assume your last minute trip has something to do with him?” Coulson asked when she gave no response.

“In a way,” Samantha said, trying her best to be noncommittal. Her father’s words reminding her not to trust anyone came to her, so despite how much she wanted to tell the Agent about her concerns for her father, she instead decided to continue lying. “The reason for his visit unexpectedly got prolonged. I thought I may come out to see him but he’s not my main reason for travelling.”

“That’s slightly odd, if you don’t mind me saying.”

The pair looked at each other and then her stomach suddenly twisted as she realised something.

“What agency are you from Agent Coulson? You never did give that information.” Samantha said, looking him directly in the eye, no small smiles to give.

“Did I not? How careless of me,” He gave the tiniest head tilt, and both knew it had been no mistake. “I work for SHIELD.”

“And why is SHIELD asking me questions? Do I need a lawyer?”

“I don’t know, do you?”

The two stared at each other, waiting for the other to make their move.

Suddenly a beeping sound filled the room and Coulson pulled out a phone from his pocket. With a quick look, he was already standing and placing the device back in his trouser pocket.

“You’re free to go Miss Jennings,” he said with a polite small.

Samantha almost did a double take, it was the last thing she expected to hear him.

“I am?” She couldn’t help but ask as she hesitantly stood up.

“You are, we were able to contact Mr Williams who verified your story” he said as he swung the door open for her to walk through. On the other side stood Agent Brown from before, with an angry look on his face. “The border agents will give you back your personal belongings on your way out.”

Not one to look a gift horse in the mouth, Samatha decided not to push it further and quickly made her way to exit. As she crossed the doorway, Coulson’s words paused her progress.

“Enjoy your time in the United States Miss Jennings, I hope you enjoy the sights.”

Again he gave her a small smile and Samantha knew he had not believed a single word she had said to him in that interview room.

Samantha Jennings, your average 25 year old trying to manage her way through life. Keeping her head down and ignoring the voices she can hear in her head. That is until her dad goes missing and the same dream of her dying wakes her up every night. Original character for Marvel’s MCU with Loki/OC/Steve Rogers elements (but not often at the same time).

Fanficiton.net: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/13926724/5/The-7th-Avenger

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katoodlez · 3 years

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i tried to be productive this morning but i dont think my brain will let me until i do this, so sam and bucky show episode 4 letS GO

i would like to preface this post by saying that I literally got spoilers (before i watched the episode) from liTERALLY EVERYTHING from youtube to gOOGLE CHROME when i was trying to read the nEWS so in order to avoid spoiling it for anyone that hasnt seen it, STOP READING because this episode is inSANE and you don’t want it ruined for you.

Okay with that being said, let’s get started.

1. the first scene in wakanda absolutely deSTROYED ME. ayo helping bucky clear the winter soldier programming from his mind and then the silent shift of emotions on his face as the flashbacks happened and then when he realized he was free was just-- KDSFKSD the aCTING WAS SO GOOD thank you mr sebastian stan

2. bucky telling ayo that Zemo was a means to an end, especially in Wakandan, gave me chills bc it’s a direct parallel of Zemo telling Bucky that he was a means to an end. this show is just so carefully crafted omg

3. karli morgenthau got so much more screentime and development in this episode and i am hERE FOR IT. it’s really intriguing to get a deeper look into the Flag Smasher’s motivations and see a more personal side of their cause as well, especially in the memorial scene.

4. can we just take a moment. we need to take a moment. to just appreciate sam. hIS DIALOGUE IN THIS EPISODE. actually, in the whole show, but eSPECially in this episode just absolutely POPPED OFF. after this episode, I’m fully convinced that sam is 100% without a doubt the best character in this show. whoever wrote his lines is a genius. i love the scene where he talks to Karli, and I hope that they can have another chance to talk without *couGH* jOhn waLKER *coUGH* butting his head in because that conversation was just amazing. i loved how they discussed things they had in common, and a mutual understanding and how sam said “i agree with your fight, but not the way you’re fighting it.” this line was so good. and literally every other part of that conversation. the entire plot would have fallen to shambles by now if it wasn’t for sam so let’s give this man a round of applause please.

5. while we’re talking about sam, I might as well mention that i was very happy to see him in the falcon suit/wings again. he didn’t fly in episode 3 and i missed the action scenes with the wings. i think I gotta give Sam the most creativity points for the fight scenes in this show because he can fight both in the air and on the ground with a set of wings and weaponize them either way and that’s really cool

6. the dora milaje. I LOVE THEM. omg. i was so happy to see Ayo at the end of episode 3 and they just aSSERTED DOMINANCE in this episode and i loved it. their fighting style and weapons and clothing/armor design is just so elegant and mesmerizing to watch. “the dora milaje have jurisdiction wherever the dora milaje find themselves to be” omg. they took no crap from john walker and it was sO SATISFYING

7. on that note, watching walker get his butt kicked by the Dora Milaje while sam, bucky, and zemo just stood there was hilarious and probably one of my favorite scenes in this entire show so far.

8. WHEN AYO DISARMED BUCKY’s VIBRANIUM ARM. OMG. bucky was *surprised pikachu face* and so was I. I really, really hope they run into the wakandans again because there’s definitely a broken trust between them and i want that relationship to be more fully fleshed out and brought to closure too

9. there’s no way i’m making this list without talking about zemo singing to the kids and giving them candy at the beginning of the episode. that kinda gave me “creepy guy who kidnaps kids at the park” kinda vibes but it was also hilarious since Zemo was the only one making any progress on getting info in that scene xd

10. zemo getting away had the same energy as Loki yeeting with the tessaract in Endgame lmao

11. BUCKY WITH A KNIFE. when he caught the knife askdjfk i’ve been waiting for a bucky knife fight this enTIRE SHOW and i finally got it and me very happy : >>>> (i’m determined to learn how he does the flippy trick w the pocketknife in Winter Soldier)

12. when Karli called Sarah Wilson i got chills. first of all sarah is an absolute fearless qUEEN but also the fact that Karli threatened Sam’s nephews akdfjaksdj pls dont hurt them Marvel

13. the parallel discussions between Zemo and Sam, Lemar and Walker about taking the super soldier serum were really neat. they both hark back to the conversation between Steve Rogers and Dr. Erskine in First Avenger, and i think that was the key turning point in revealing/completely clarifying both Sam and Walker’s true colors, which will now directly contradict each other for the rest of the show.

14. people say that sam is the character who always tries to reason things out until he has absolutely no options left. i think that really shows through in this episode, and it’s also a good reference point/marker of the other characters’ development. Sam’s determination to talk things through with Karli actually brought them closer together (until sOMEONE decided to intervene coUGH) but his equal determination to keep peace/negotiate with Walker only drove them further apart, which makes me feel that even though karli and the flag smashers are the “villains” in this story, they are definitely not the antagonists (that would be walker, who’s directly trying to work against Sam and Bucky, the protagonists)

15. bucky’s “i know crazy when i see it cuz i am crazy” sent me LOL

16. when lemar died i think everyone just went 0 _ 0. i don’t think Karli intended to kill him when she kicked him into that wall, judging by the way they all ran off after they realized he was dead. tbh i’ve been netural towards lemar this entire time, tho i do appreciate his more pacifist attitude to walker’s explosive impulsiveness. he’s sort of like sam to bucky. but his death really felt like an accidental cross-fire casualty that cause walker to reach his breaking point

17. and lastly the scene with the bloody shield. 0 _ 0. the whole world was watching indeed

alright that’s it for this week. i can’t believe there’s only two episodes left 0 _ 0. to be honest, from our current point of view as fans i feel like this show needs another season, maybe 2. the reason being, I can’t really see a space that Sam and Bucky would fit into in the future of the MCU. Sam, maybe, if he resolves the deal with the Captain America mantle at the end of this show, but I feel like Bucky’s end goal is just to like, retire lmao. but also, the future of the MCU is gonna be really focused on like the more magicky characters like Wanda, Loki and Doctor Strange, and ofc Spiderman, Thor/Guardians and Captain Marvel, and then ppl are saying something abt the young avengers or something. But yeah, as near as i can figure this show seems like it should bring closure for Bucky at least, except i have no clue how they’re going to wrap all this stuff up in 2 episodes. in addition to the mess with Zemo and Walker and Sharon’s whole deal in Madripoor, I hope they also get back to America to bring their issues there full circle, like Bucky’s issue with Nakajima, Sam’s family and their home, and Isaiah Bradley. guess we’ll see, can’t wait for next week already ahhhh

#falcon and the winter soldier #bucky barnes #sam wilson #falcon #winter soldier #marvel #mcu #spoilers #falcon and the winter soldier spoilers #this show is too good

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roarformeprettylion · 5 years

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Parts of Iron Man/the MCU that wouldn’t exist if Robert Downey Jr hadn’t been cast

(both gifs by @stcny)

I am Iron Man

This wasn’t even a scene in IM1. RDJ just tried it out one take and Marvel liked it so much that they used it. That ending was iconic and the line was used in many times in subsequent movies, including, of course, Endgame.

(both gifs by @themightyconchords)

Cheesburgers

RDJ said that one of the things that helped him start to get his life on track was eating a truly awful Burger King cheeseburger. He wanted that put in the movie in some way. In Endgame, we get the callback when Morgan asks for a cheeseburger and we all get punched in the heart.

(gif by @limelight001)

(gif by @van-dyne)

I love you 3000

This is one of the most quoted lines from Endgame and it came from the Downey household. Robert and his children say it to each other and he thought it would be a good emotional line to include. He was right, of course.

(both gifs by @whatadaytoexplode)

No trust - Liar

I don’t know about other fans, but I had been waiting for Tony to confront Steve about hm dismantling the Avengers. The scene finally happened in Endgame and it was so cathartic. And apparently all made up by RDJ. The dialogue and acting in that scene was so raw and emotional.

(gif by @proinslascassidy > @jessicajones616)

I don’t want to go

I’m not giving Robert credit for Tom’s amazing acting. That’s all him. However, the directors and Tom have said that Robert helped him with the scene.

“It wasn’t as drawn out as this,” Anthony Russo added, before going on to discuss how Downey Jr. was keen to mine the sequence for all it was worth and coached Holland on where the character was at this point and how hopeless he felt. The result was a show-stopping performance from the young actor.

“At the end of the day, he kept driving: put more and more emotion into it, and just went up to Tom and said, ‘You don’t want to go because you’re a child. And you’re using your strength as Spider-Man to fight this. And then that was the performance that came out. It was a pretty spectacular performance for a 21-year-old actor.”

Tom has also said in another interview that one of his tricks to make himself cry is to repeat a phrase over and over. I’m sure that scene would have been emotional regardless, but the line is so heartbreaking because it shows how young Peter is and it shows that Downey understood the emotional weight of the scene.

He basically improvised most of his lines in IM1 and has continued to throw in lines in every movie. Some of them may not have had the impact of others but they’re still funny and/or

The entire after credit scene in the Hulk

“That man is playing Galaga”

Shwarma

Tony eating food in the lab in Avengers

“its not a hug, Im just grabbing the door for ya” (w/ Holland)

“You seem a little defensive”

“The adults are talking”

ect.

(gif by @karazrel)

Tony’s silence during his death

Lines were written but Robert thought it would be more emotional to have Tony stay silent as he was dying.

(gif by @humanveil)

Trauma in Iron Man 3

Robert didn’t write the script but he did influence a major part of the movie, Tony’s trauma. RDJ specifically asked that they explore Tony’s trauma in IM3.

“I thought rather than pretending that didn’t happen, let’s bring it into the latest installment.”

He has always advocated for the movies to show Tony being affected by the things that happen.

“One of Robert’s big things is he always wants to be damaged by the things that happen to his character and he wants to show the damage done. There should be a grittiness about showing the cost of the life [Tony] is living.”

(gif by @zinfandelli)

Gauntlet Wristwatch

When trying to stop the Winter Soldier, Tony goes up against him with nothing but a single gauntlet made from his watch. That device was thought up by Robert himself. He pitched it to the directors and they let him do it. That fight shows Tony’s willingness to fight without his suit and his clever way to fight the Winter Soldier using his own body weight against him. Its a short scene but its a really cool gadget and an interesting fight.

(gif by @virgintony deactivated)

Tony’s glasses showing vulnerability

Tony uses his glasses to show when he’s vulnerable and when he’s guarded. Let’s be honest, that’s all Robert.

RDJ’s acting talent bringing weight to a superhero role

We love Tony because he’s layered. Because he’s made mistakes. Who else could bring the multidimensional portrayal to the role like Robert has? No one, in my opinion.

How RDJ is as an actor and ‘marvel ambassador’

RDJ talked Chris Evans into taking the role of Captain America and was part of choosing Tom Holland for Spiderman. Everyone says he is a generous acting partner, a great person to have on set, one of the first people to welcome newbies into the Marvel world. These things don’t have specific effects but they matter.

It took so long to find gifs that i kind of lost steam at the end. But my point still stands. Tony Stark is so beloved partly because he is portrayed by the right actor who cares about the role.

#robert downey jr #iron man #tony stark #rdj #marvel #everyone say thank you robert #im sure theres a lot im forgetting #my post

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scarlet--wiccan · 3 years

Note

I don’t think Wanda’s mutant status actually matters nearly as much as it should for Billy and Tommy especially, mutants are born with their powers (though usually dormant), Wanda and pietro (currently) got their powers from the HE but the twins were seemingly born mutants. Either she made them mutants subconsciously bc she believed she was, or they’re the mutant children of a mutate (like Franklin Richards). Not defending the retcon and DEFINITELY not defending the way Wanda’s been treated and how weird that makes Tommy’s relationship status but I don’t think non mutant Wanda necessarily means Billy and Tommy aren’t. They should clarify, where Tommy’s powers even come from if pietro got his from THE especially confused me, but usually powered kids of mutates have been considered mutants.

That being said it probably doesn’t matter bc Sc*rletVisi*n is probably going to make all of them mutants point blank so the comics will shift to accommodate that. Apparently Peter from the xmen is going to come in and bring mutants somehow which sounds horrible (and though ATJ still shouldn’t have been playing pietro as a white man he was at least semi recognizable as quicksilver from the comics and Jewish. I hate xmcu quicksilver A LOT more than mcu QS even though neither is good) and ridiculous but the leak has gotten a lot of crap right so far.

I’m assuming the plan is to retcon the retcon with this krakoa event but they’re waiting until the big tv reveal because unfortunately the movies/shows are their priority now. I think the only good think is that krakoa seems so far divorced from any status quo (mcu or otherwise) that making the maximoffs mutants (again) will have to be completely divorced from the mcu so there’s a chance the storyline might not be terrible? I don’t want the whitewashed maximoffs to have any more of an impact on the comic characters, even though I know that’s impossible.

Well, for one thing, they just retconned Franklin as a "false" mutant, too. I'm not saying that was a good choice, but if we're talking about the current status quo, he definitely doesn't hold up as an example. The definition of "mutant" has shifted over the years, but, generally speaking, when we talk about X-Men mutants, we're talking about people with a specific genetic feature, the X-gene. I suppose that a child of a human mutate who inherits superhuman or abnormal genetic traits from their parents would be, by definition, a mutant, but if they don't have the X-gene, it's not the same thing. Are there a lot of other characters like Franklin, who were allegedly born with the X-gene because their parents are mutates? Because I can't think of any off the top of my head.

Anyways, this is a hard point to debate because the 2015 retcons were poorly executed and poorly justified-- it's, like, impossible to retroactively view Wanda and Pietro as non-mutants when, in the past, their mutant status was an integral part of their characters and a key plot point in several major events. House of M, Son of M, and AvX literally don't make sense if they aren't mutants-- Pietro was depowered by the "no more mutants" spell, and Hope was able to mimic Wanda's powers. Neither of these things would be possible if they weren't real mutants. The explanation can't just be that Wanda believed herself to be a mutant, and so her magic functioned accordingly-- if that's how it's supposed to work, the reveal in Axis never could have happened the way it did. Do you see what I mean? I'm running circles around myself trying to make it make sense.

That aside, Billy and Tommy's status as mutants has always been a little nebulous-- I don't think they're ever clearly identified as such in any Young Avengers titles, although they were definitely described as mutants in some of their other appearances-- Secret Invasion always comes to mind. You could argue that their powers are a factor of their magical resurrection, rather than being genetic, but, as I've said in the past, I do think that the twins are genetically continuous to their original incarnations. More to the point, their "mutations" match Wanda and Pietro's almost exactly. This is taken as proof of their connection to Wanda, so, based on that significance, I'm inclined to say the nature of their powers should also match, mutant or not. Plus, don't you think it'd be a weird coincidence if they had the same abilities, but from a different source?

[As a disclaimer, I do tend to think of/refer to the entire Maximoff family as mutants when I'm not directly addressing the retcons. This is because they were written as such for decades, so they are still mutant characters within most of the existing material.]

__________________________________

I have heard some of those leaks and rumors, and I agree that if the Axis retcon is going to be reversed, even partially, it will probably happen if and when MCU!Wanda comes to be known as a mutant. As I've said, I'm not invested in that character and I don't think there's any way, at this point, to fix the problems that she represents, so I don't really care where she ends up in the movies. I will say that I'm not terribly worried about the films influencing Wanda's appearance or characterization in the comics-- even after the Axis retcon, which was clearly motivated by IP concerns related to the movies, the changes she went through had nothing to do with MCU!Wanda and actually differentiated them even further.

That said, while Hickman's treatment of Wanda may be a red herring or set-up for some big reveal, I don't trust him, or Howard, with the character in any circumstance. More importantly, I care less about Wanda being a mutant than I care about the way Hickman, like Remender before him, is carrying on with the worst, most offensive aspects of her mid-2000s characterization. The levels of ableism and misogyny House of M, Disassembled, etc are too great to ignore. It is irresponsible for contemporary writers to refer back to those stories without acknowledging those problems, or at least attempting to shift the narrative for the better.

It's also really hurtful to me, as someone who sees their identity and history reflected in this character, to see her painted as pseudo-genocidal, or a race/class traitor, or a self-hating minority. Wanda has only become that character because gadjekane writers have chosen to project those those notions onto the image of a Roma woman. That sucks, and it sucks even more that so many fans, and industry pros, turn their ire onto the character, rather than reckoning with the real problem.

#robintext #wanda maximoff #x-men #scarlet witch #tommy shepherd

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khentkawes · 5 years

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Tony Stark’s overlooked superpower: his self-awareness and the rare ability to admit, honestly and without justification, when he is wrong… and then work towards becoming a better person.

So there’s a lot of “discourse” (or whatever you want to call it) over Tony Stark and whether he takes responsibility for his mistakes. Antis say he needs to step up and take responsibility; the rest of us say that Tony does take responsibility consistently, even when he probably doesn’t need to or when someone else is equally responsible. But the comment from @i-want-to-bethlieve on this post a while back got me thinking (hope you don’t mind me tagging you–didn’t want to derail the original post, but also totally crediting you for getting my brain rolling on this), with the comment that all the characters make mistakes, but only Tony’s mistakes are brought up in the narrative…and Tony clearly can and does take responsibility for his mistakes–in fact, no one else does it more often or more consistently than he does. And even those characters who do express guilt over their mistakes, they don’t fully own them, don’t fully accept the blame, and the narrative doesn’t show them putting in the hard work to atone.

When I first started seriously watching the MCU (right after Thor Ragnarok came out–before that I’d only seen Avengers and Thor…yeah, I was a late-comer to the MCU), I used to say that Tony’s superpower was his ability to admit that he was wrong. And I stand by that.

Seriously, Tony’s ability to repeatedly say, “I was wrong” without justifying his mistakes is a superpower! Because people don’t think about how much strength it takes to admit that you are wrong. Most people can’t do it, even with small things. Don’t believe me? Think about it, seriously think about it in your daily life. You’ll probably realize that it is incredibly rare for any of us to simply say, “I was wrong” without immediately following it with “but I didn’t mean to…” or “but I did it because…” Even simply saying, “I’m sorry” is hard for most people. That’s why people often give halfhearted apologies that are half defensive. “I’m sorry you were hurt, but I didn’t mean it the way you took it!” We’ve all heard or said variations on that. Most of us rationalize and justify and excuse our mistakes, even in the rare instances when we do admit them. And in everyday situations, people will argue over stupid things because they simply don’t want to admit “I was wrong.” People are stubborn that way.

But Tony admits fault and takes responsibility for his actions in pretty much every single movie! He admits he’s wrong immediately when he returns from Afghanistan, without hesitation or rationalization. Let’s break it down:

“I saw young Americans killed by the weapons I had designed to defend them.” [Admission that his previous understanding of the situation was wrong. He thought he was doing good, but was blinded to all of the harm his weapons had done.]

“I realized I had become part of a system with zero accountability.” [Admission that he was part of the problem.]

“And that is why, effective immediately, I will be shutting down the weapons manufacturing division of Stark International.” [Immediately takes steps to correct his mistakes.]

No rationalization. No, “but I thought I was doing the right thing” or “I was just following in my dad’s footsteps” or “other people make weapons too” or “lots of people told me I was doing good!” All of those things are true. But Tony doesn’t use them to rationalize or justify his actions. He doesn’t make excuses or get defensive. He also doesn’t hesitate to begin correcting his mistakes. He shuts down the weapons division. He begins looking into other options. He beings building Iron Man suits to channel his technology into new and better ways to protect people. And then he personally uses the Iron Man suit to liberate and defend Gulmira when it is clear that he hasn’t done enough to stop the destruction his weapons caused.

But that’s just in the first movie, you say? After that he makes more mistakes. Sure, because he’s a human being, and being human is hard. We all make mistakes and personal growth is not linear. There’s backsliding and missteps along the way. But Tony still, consistently, admits when he is wrong and accepts blame when appropriate (and sometimes even when it’s not. The boy has developed a guilt complex now, okay?).

So what about Iron Man 2. Okay, Tony’s apologies and admissions of responsibility are subtler here, but they do happen.

Rhodey: Look, I’m sorry, okay.

Tony: Don’t be.

Rhodey: No, I should have trusted you more.

Tony: I’m the one who put you in this position. Forget it.

Rhodey: No, it’s your fault. I just wanted to say I’m sorry.

Tony: Thank you. That’s all I wanted to hear.

Tony does not dispute that it was his fault. He admits that he put Rhodey in an impossible position. He wants to hear the apology, but he also takes full responsibility for his part in their fight (btw, kudos to them both, since this is a great example of a mature friendship where both admit fault, apologize, and still care about each other, moving forward without holding any grudges at all). And later to Pepper: “Don’t be mad. I will formally apologize when I’m not fending off a Hammer-oid attack.” So Tony knows that he did handle things poorly and he does need to apologize. And later he implicitly takes responsibility for everything with Pepper, admitting that she would be totally justified in quitting: “You deserve better; you’ve taken such good care of me. I’ve been in a tough spot and you got me through it.”

Then we get Iron Man 3, which is all about Tony admitting when he screws up. Repeatedly. From almost scene one on.

Tony to Pepper: “Hey, I admit it! My fault! Sorry. I’m a piping hot mess.” He takes full responsibility for ruining date night, even though Pepper herself was late for date night.

Tony calling Pepper from Tennessee: “Pepper, it’s me. I’ve got a lot of apologies to make and not a lot of time. So first off, I’m so sorry I put you in harm’s way. That was selfish and stupid and it won’t happen again. Also it’s Christmas time…the rabbit’s too big. Done. Sorry. And I’m sorry in advance because…I can’t come home yet.” He apologizes for like…everything, but crucially he avoids one of the most common mistakes people make when apologizing: most people apologize for hurting someone but not for their actual actions. But not Tony. He takes responsibility for his selfish, thoughtless, and reckless actions and admits that he was wrong for all of it, promising to do better in the future. Again, no justifications or excuses, just genuine repentance.

And what about CA:CW? “Clearly, I made a mistake. Sam, I was wrong.” And right after this, Tony admits that he and Sam don’t know each other very well. Unlike with Pepper and Rhodey, who Tony trusts because of their long-standing relationships, Tony does not have any reason to believe that Sam will forgive him; admitting he’s wrong to someone who already dislikes him takes an extra measure of vulnerability, but Tony doesn’t even hesitate (I will ignore Sam’s petty “that’s a first” retort because, well, Sam doesn’t know Tony well enough to realize that he has misjudged Tony). Tony had plenty of rational reasons to think that Bucky was responsible for the bombing and everything else, but he doesn’t bring those up as justification for his (again, completely rational) mistaken interpretation of events. He just admits he was wrong and then says he wants to help Steve; he wants to do what he can to fix his mistake. When he gets to Siberia, he says, “maybe your story’s not so crazy.” Basically, he again admits that he was wrong to discount Steve’s concerns and Bucky’s story about other super-soldiers (even though he only doubted it because all evidence pointed against it and because Steve didn’t tell him until the absolute last second possible, which made it look like a last minute excuse for Steve’s actions).

Even before all of that, Tony takes full responsibility for Ultron (“Ultron–my fault”)…even though plenty of other people share responsibility for that: Bruce for helping create it, Wanda for manipulating Tony in the hopes he would “self-destruct” and for actively working with Ultron to enable his destruction, and Thanos who (presumably) programed the mind stone (since the narrative heavily implies that Tony/Bruce failed to create a functional AI and the mind stone actually put the pieces in place on its own, and Thanos implicitly takes credit for the events of the entire movie in the end-credits scene). But yeah. Only Tony admits his share of the blame for Ultron, and by extension, for Sokovia.

All of this just shows that Tony is honest and self-aware, and strong enough as a person to admit his mistakes and face them head on, rather than justifying, excusing, rationalizing, or denying. We don’t really get that from the other heroes: not Bruce, Steve, Thor, Wanda, Sam, Dr. Strange, or even Nick freaking Fury (who, I would argue, has made a fuck ton of mistakes). The closest we get is Bucky admitting “I’m not sure that I’m worth all of this,” Bruce agonizing over the destruction that Hulk causes, Clint’s confession to Natasha that he might not deserve her sacrifice, and Natasha’s comments about “red in her ledger.” But even then, most of those are more examples of self-loathing (in often unhealthy ways) rather than truly admitting fault and taking responsibility for one’s actions in a mature way. Only Natasha really takes responsibility for her actions, as her work with SHIELD and the Avengers is her attempt to do good out of a desire for atonement (the writing for Nat was often pretty poor, so we don’t see this part of her character development very clearly–it’s alluded to repeatedly, but never developed in detail).

The other Avengers do express regrets, but they struggle to take that next step of fully taking responsibility, admitting to other people they are wrong, and doing what they can to correct their mistakes. Sure, Wanda and Steve both felt bad after what happened in Lagos. They both said (privately) they felt like they were at fault. But they weren’t willing to own that and do something about it. In front of everyone else, they offer excuses or say that it’s just the cost of the job...or they don’t admit any fault at all. I don’t necessarily blame them. I probably would do the same. It would have been monumentally hard to come out in a press conference and admit that they made a mistake (though that didn’t stop Tony from doing exactly that way back in Iron Man). But that moment in Civil War is the only time the other Avengers discuss mistakes or blame–and it leads to nothing. Steve struggles with this later too…He always has some justification or explanation for his mistakes, like in his apology letter to Tony. And the “liar” scene in Endgame is further proof. That was the one time when Tony said, “no, this wasn’t my fault. Not this time. It was yours.” And Steve isn’t able to be vulnerable and honestly admit, out loud, that yeah, he was wrong and it was his fault that the Avengers weren’t together. Steve starts to get defensive because he feels personally attacked (which, to be fair, he was). Tony mentions that Thanos is the exact reason he said they needed a suit of armor around the world and Steve says (one of his few lines), “yeah, and how’d that work out?” This is a classic deflection, an act of self-defense when someone feels attacked so they try to shift blame to the other person. We all do this in reality; it’s a natural tendency, although not a very emotionally mature reaction. After that, Steve shuts up, and I do interpret this as him internally feeling guilty about his actions because I think he knows he made mistakes and would do things differently if he had the chance to go back. But again, he doesn’t or can’t say out loud that he was wrong. And look, if we’re all honest, most of us would be like Steve…we might feel bad but we wouldn’t admit, out loud, that we were wrong. We’d rationalize or get defensive–it’s a very human reaction.

But it’s heroic to admit you are wrong and take responsibility for it. That’s not natural and it’s not easy, but it’s a skill the world desperately needs–maybe now more than ever. It’s also the only true path towards emotional growth and spiritual maturity. Robert Downey Jr. recently described the pre-Iron Man Tony Stark as “spiritually dead,” and I think any journey towards spiritual growth (or whatever you want to call it) has to begin with being 100% honest and self-aware and taking full responsibility for your own mistakes. Tony Stark does that, and he does it more fully and more consistently than any other MCU hero. He’s not perfect–but he knows that, and even more importantly, he admits it out loud, repeatedly. It’s an overlooked superpower because most people don’t really want to emulate this: people want to be respected and have super strength, but admitting you’re wrong? That doesn’t sound cool; that’s not a superpower most people want…which is why many of the other heroes don’t do it. Many of them are wish-fulfillment heroes, not three-dimensional characters who are human and flawed. Tony is the epitome of human and flawed…and he knows it. Ironically, that’s also what makes him heroic.

Yes, Tony’s mind and his heart are his superpowers, like a lot of people have said before, but let’s not neglect his capacity for reflection, for self-evaluation, for honest contrition, and the ability to admit when he is wrong and work towards righting that wrong. Those are all superpowers too.

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ruffbun · 4 years

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Let's talk about Tony Stark

Now, this is a matter of my opinion, and I I'm not saying you have to love Tony, but I think he should afford more respect than is given to him by some people.

So the most common thing I hear from antis is "Well he sold weapons", "He was a warmonger" , etc.

First of all that's from the FIRST movie, why are you still on that bullshit? But let's talk about it anyway.

"He made that choice he could have stopped" "He just wanted to profit off of it he only cares about himself!"

May I remind you, that Tony inherited head of the Stark Industries company at a very young age, an age young enough where, honestly, I couldn't even dream of running a multibillion dollar compsny. I'm nearly 22 and can barely feed myself. So let's think about that, how stressful that would be for him, on top of dealing with loss and grief over his parents. Now, let's add in another key factor that people seem to forget about. Obadiah Stane. Think for a moment here, who was REALLY running things? Who was REALLY profiteering off of the war? Was it Tony? A kid who just wanted to pursue his science career and grow and learn and grieve for his parents ? Or was it this man, who he looked up to as a second father, who he TRUSTED to help him and make all of the big decisions for him? How do we even know that Tony was aware of what was going on behind the scenes? When you trust someone like that, you don't check in on them 24-7 to make sure they're doing things the right way, hell especially if you're young and naive.

People like to forget that it wasn't really all just Tony doing these things. They forget that he was a puppet on Obadiahs strings. A man he loved and trusted and was betrayed and backstabbed by.

Now let's move past that point for now. Let's go to "Oh he's arrogant" "He's a Playboy" etc.

Let me remind you again of some things. Let me remind you that he was young. That he was grieving, and let me also remind you who he had as a father 😒

I'll also lend you some information from personal experience, that kids with parents who often neglect to give them the attention they need, are always going to try to fill that void in some other way. There's a very very good possibility that Tony is such a "Playboy" because he is still looking for all of that love and affection he missed out on as a kid. Think about how much he grew as a person once he finally started to get it.

Now, moving on. "Oh he makes so many mistakes!" "He fucks up all the time!!"

Don't we all?

We all make mistakes, we all fuck up sometimes, just because his mistakes may be bigger or more public than ours sometimes, doesn't make him an awful horrible person! Everyone makes mistakes!! Including the other Avengers.

However we elect to ignore and forgive everyone else's mistakes, yet crucify Tony for his. That just isn't fair.

I'll also remind you that every "big mistake" Tony has made, had good intentions. All of Tony's mishaps have come from him trying too hard to help and protect his friends, loved ones, and the entire world. All of these things he's done "sO" wrong, were him trying so hard to fix what he had previously messed up. He doesn't always go about things in the best ways but he's trying his fucking best to protect people. To help people. And I don't think anyone ever stops to think about this.

Tony is a very passionate and emotional man, and yes sometimes that blows up in his face, but Steve is equally as passionate and emotional, yet we put him up on this godly pedestal of "can do no wrong". If we're going to bitch about people's mistakes, bitch about everyone's. Not just one man's.

Now I've also heard people complain about Tony being a "typical heterosexual white male"

Is... Steve not.. also this? Clint? Thor? Bruce? No you just choose to dislike Tony because he has what? The most money? Because he *looks* like the men we fear in today's society? Because he has emotions? Because he gets cranky sometimes?? I don't get it. I don't get why we choose to complain about one man and ignore everyone else. Complain equally, or not at all. Don't crucify one man for his wrong doings and ignore everyone else's.

And yes, these things have lessened up quite a bit since the release of Endgame. However, I am saddened that it took Tony giving up his LIFE in order to protect his friends, family, loved ones, and all of humanity, for people to realize that he is, in fact, a good man.

We can also talk about "oh well he was mean to Peter." As I do recall, Tony was harsh on Peter in that ONE scene in homecoming, because he wanted Peter to be BETTER than him, he wanted Peter to be SMARTER than him. He wanted to keep Peter from making the same mistakes as he did and he wanted to be there for Peter in a way that Howard never was for him.

Now we can talk about "oh well he tried to kill Bucky"

Oooh boy. Okay listen, Bucky Barnes is my absolute favorite character in the MCU. I adore him and would kiss the ground he walks on. However, I'm not going to give Tony shit for reacting the way he did.

Here Tony is, trying to help his friends again, trying to right his wrongs, fix his mistakes, etc. And he finds out that this man, this man that his best friend has become a criminal to protect, is the one responsible for his parents deaths.

Now yes, Bucky was brainwashed by HYDRA, and no, it was not Bucky's fault for doing what he did. And given proper time to grieve and reflect, Tony would have known that too. However, Tony did not receive any time to grieve, reflect, and come to terms with what was going on. All he knew in that moment was 'this strange man in front of me is the one responsible for my life of hurt and pain and the loss of people I love dearly, and my lack of childhood'

Don't come here and tell me you would not have also panicked and lashed out in that moment. Stop berating human beings with emotions for reacting to harmful situations like you're a perfect angel and would never react that way under duress. You're lying if you say you wouldn't have at least been angry.

So when it boils down to it. I'm not saying the man is perfect, I'm not saying he's never made dumb decisions or stupid mistakes. But what I am saying is that he deserves a lot more respect than some people give him.

Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk. Asks and inbox are open for further discussion if you wish to communicate respectfully.

#it took me 32 ktinutes to write this #pro tony stark #tony stark #anthony edward stark #anthony stark #iron man #civil war #CACW #endgame #avengers endgame #personal opinions and reflections #character analysis #marvel #mcu #marvel cinematic universe

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twobitmulder · 4 years

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MCU Spider-Man 3 Pitch

I have not been the biggest fan of the MCU’s take on Spider-Man, but I do think there’s a way that they could close out his trilogy and make up for a lot of what didn’t work while also staying true to what’s been done in the first few movies.

So picture this, it’s been a few months, maybe even a year, since Spider-Man was framed for Mysterio’s death. Stark Industries lawyers have been able to convince a judge that the footage was doctored to put Peter’s face in in it, but that’s only improved the situation a little bit. Half of New York still thinks Peter is Spider-Man and the other half at least think Spider-Man murdered Mysterio and framed this kid. Happy and Stark Industries have had to distance themselves from Spider-Man publicly because even though Peter Parker is technically legally innocent, Spider-Man is still wanted for murder.

Ned and MJ stand by him, but the fact of the matter is that the world is just against Peter Parker on all fronts....

That’s when Norman Osborne shows up. Norman is a tech genius and his company Oscorp has always been a sort of quiet competitor to Stark Industries. Since the Snap (or the Blip if you prefer) they’ve raised their public profile and are doing a lot of work cleaning up the world. Norman approaches Peter much like Tony did. He knows Peter is Spider-Man and he’s offering him a job with Oscorp, a way to save his reputation and earn some money (Stark Industries covered the legal fees, but the constant attention has put a strain on the already sparse Parker family budget). Norman is putting together a new team, to fill the void left by the fracturing of the Avengers...the Thunderbolts.

Now Peter isn’t an idiot. This all feels sort of suspect. After all, Mysterio came to him as a fellow hero too. So he does his due diligence. He checks with Dr. Strange and looks as far back as he can into Osborne’s past, but he can’t find a blemish, what he does find is that Osborne knew his father, worked with him when they were in Grad school, and it leads to a very tender father/son moment between them.

So he agrees to become a Thunderbolt on a trial basis. May doesn’t like it, but Peter is 18 and she can’t stop him. MJ thinks he’s nuts. “You got lucky trusting one billionaire, you’re crazy to trust a second one.” Even Ned, trying to be supportive, can’t help but feel that something is off.

Peter meets the other Thunderbolts. Max Dillion, who can control electricity, Sergei Kravinoff, who has enhanced strength and agility, and Dimitri Smerdyakov, their own personal Black Widow and master intelligence operative. They have an early run in with Mac Gargan, now in possession of a suit of power armor and calling himself The Scorpion, but the real clincher for Peter comes when, responding to an attack by some kind of sand monster, they capture a very alive and well Mysterio.

With the path to fully clearing his name now open, Peter comes to fully trust Osborne who tells him how he wants to do what the Avengers couldn’t. He wants to build a suit of armor around the world.

Meanwhile, MJ and Ned are still suspicious and they break into Oscorp where they find Osborne’s scientists running tests on Dillon, Kravinoff, and Smerdyakov. But worse than that, they find Beck and Gargan free, and getting equipment upgrades from Oscorp scientists. They’re captured and interrogated by Osborne. MJ tells him that she’s got him all figured out, that he’s just running the same scam that Beck was, creating fake disasters to swoop and stop. But Osborne tells her that it’s much more than that. Peter represents the possibility of a new generation of heroes, young and impressionable that he can mold and shape, effectively putting the next generation of super people entirely under his thumb. Luckily for Osborne, Beck’s stunt with the doctored footage helped alienate Peter enough for Osborne to get his hooks in.

Later, Peter is worried that he can’t get in touch with MJ and Ned, but Osborne tells him not to worry, tells him that his destiny as a hero is beyond all that and that he’ll make new friends, friends on his level. Osborne shows Peter files he’s been keeping on other young people with powers (and here we can take an opportunity to show off some upcoming characters, I think Angelica Jones, Bobby Drake, and Sam Alexander would be fun Easter Eggs) that he wants Peter to start training to be the next generation of Thunderbolts.

This starts to rub Peter the wrong way and he wonders if maybe MJ and Ned were right. He hacks Osborne’s computers and steals some files on the Thunderbolt Project and takes them home to sort through them. On his way home he gets a call from MJ telling him to meet her in Central Park.

By the time he gets there it’s dark and he sees not MJ, but Aunt May meeting with someone who looks just like Peter. Before he can call out to her he’s blindsided by a masked man (Kraven, but Peter can’t tell) who pins him down and makes him watch as the False Peter (Smerdyakov) locks eyes with Peter and makes it clear that if he makes a sound he’ll kill May. Kraven asks for the data Peter stole from Oscorpe back. Just as Peter is about to hand it over he sees May wallop Smerdyakov.

We cut to May kicking Smerdyakov’s fallen gun away from him and asking him where Peter is. Smerdyakov’s shapeshifting falters and we see a new form, a blank, smooth white face.

“How?” He asks.

May sneers at him. “You think I don’t know my own son?”

A webline hits Smerdyakov square in the chest and Peter rockets into frame, knocking him onto his ass. Kraven rushes him and Peter yells for May to get clear.

Suddenly an explosion rips through the park. Osborne, in something almost like a cross between an Iron Man suit and and Vulture’s wing harness, swoops down, picks Peter up, and plucks the data stick from the pocket of his suit, then throws him into a nearby building where Peter blacks out.

Peter wakes up in a hazy and brightly lit version of his bedroom. He sits up on his bed and makes eye contact with someone across from him.

“I let you down didn’t I? I tried to...I tried to be better. I tried to...”

“Pete,” an unfamiliar voice says, as we pan to the other end of the room and see, for the first time in the MCU, Benjamin Franklin Parker (I’m imagining Nick Offerman, but Toby Maguire would be fun too). “You could never let me down.”

Peter tells his uncle that he thinks he made a mistake, that he doesn’t know who to trust anymore, and that this whole Spider-Man thing was supposed to be to make Ben proud, to make up for...well, Ben knows...but it never seems to turn out right. It just feels like he keeps getting drawn into other people’s messes and making a mess of his own life and he’s tried to be his own person but it feels like the more he’s Spider-Man the less he knows who he’s supposed to be. Is he Tony? Is he Osborne? Is he an Avenger or a Thunderbolt? Ever since he got drawn into this people have been talking about his potential and he’s afraid that he’s not going to measure up to what people expect of him. And Ben very gently tells him that it’s not about measuring up. It’s not about being the next Tony Stark but better or becoming an Avenger. It’s not about measuring up to anyone’s ideal. It’s about knowing that he’s making a difference because he feels it’s the right thing to do no matter whether the rest of the world sees him as an Iron Man or a menace or an Avenger. And he tells him that he knows he knows he’ll do the right thing, because he can’t not, it’s who he is, it’s in his actions every day.

Peter wakes up to May frantically doing chest compressions on him in the middle of a collapsed public restroom in the park. He almost tells her what he hallucinated while he was out, but he can’t bring himself to. Instead he says they need to get to a computer.

Peter reveals that he made a backup of the data and stored it in the suit’s computer. He opens up the files and they find out that Osborne is planning to release the personal information of his teenage Thunderbolts candidates to every budding super-criminal and news outlet in the world. He’s gonna back them all into a corner the way Peter was, destroy their lives so he can pick up the pieces and turn them into his loyal army.

Following an SOS from MJ Peter find Osborne and confronts him in the Oscorp Tower while Aunt May sneaks in and rescues MJ and Ned. What follows is a climactic fight where Peter takes on Osborne’s Sinister Six while May, Ned, and MJ make their way past Oscorp’s security to stop the data leak.

The fight spills out into the city and Peter shows off his experience as Spider-Man, staying one step ahead of his multiple foes and pulling civilians out of harm’s way.

May, MJ, and Ned manage to stop the data leak from Oscorp Tower but Osborne reveals he can just as easily release it all from his suit. He points out to Peter that as far as the world is concerned, he and the Thunderbolts are new superheroes while Spider-Man’s reputation is still in doubt.

“Keep fighting me and they’ll hate you forever” Osborne says.

“It doesn’t matter if they hate me” Peter says, tearing the computer systems out of Osborne’s suit. “It matters that they’re safe.”

The day saved and the villains defeated and incapacitated, Peter limps to the top of Oscorp tower where he meets May, MJ, and Ned, as they watch as the sun rises over the city.

Cut to a few weeks later and the media is still divided whether Spider-Man is a hero or a menace. Norman Osborne has been taken to The Raft after a data leak from Oscorp Tower revealed business dealings with remnants of Hydra, AIM, and the Fisk Crime syndicate. MJ, filling out applications for a journalism major at ESU, looks knowingly proud and justifiably smug as this is reported.

The film ends as Peter, in his Spider-Man suit, approaches a young girl sitting on the edge of a rooftop, flames dancing on her fingertips. Ned and MJ monitor him from a jury-rigged computer display and talk to him through his suit.

“Hi,” Peter says to the girl, “Angelica Jones?...Can I talk to you for second? I think I can help you.”

Post Credits Scene 1: Peter is visiting Dr. Strange again who tells him that he honestly can’t say if the vision Peter had was anything more than a near death hallucination, but that he should take comfort in knowing that the people we’ve lost can still help us once they’re gone, even if it’s just their memories. Peter presses the issue and Dr. Strange shrugs and says anything is possible. There are infinite worlds after all, different planes of existence, different dimensions.

Peter Scoffs, “That’s just something Mysterio made up to con us”

“Well even a broken clock is right twice a day” Strange replies.

Post Credits Scene 2: Osborne is locked up in The Raft. Footsteps approach. General Ross comes up to his cell and shakes his head.

“Beat down by a kid Osborne. Well, even so, you still put together a damn impressive team. I had some ideas about continuing your little project. I do really like the name.”

#That ended up longer than I expected #I sort of wrote this in a frenzy over two days before the news about Garfield and Maguire broke #I'm not crazy about the idea personally since it's already been done and been done better than the MCU could hope to #spider-man #MCU #peter parker #movie pitch #I had a devil of a time figuring out the Uncle Ben scene but it's too weird to have a whole Spider-Man series without mentioning him #I know it sort or hits some of the same beats as Far From Home but I did not realize that as I was writing it #this ended up as more of a fanfic than a pitch #I realize on the one hand that it might be more fitting for Miles to be the one Peter comes to at the end #But I think Miles deserves a fuller intro than a tag scene #really the best way to introduce Miles would have been while Peter was dead in the five years between Infinity War and Endgame #C’est la vie maybe we get an interquel later

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theplumsoldier · 5 years

Text

PREMIERE NIGHT

Request: Anonymous asked: So if you have time and motivation and like my prompt could you write a fic where y/n joins the Avengers cast to play young Black Widow maybe? and she’s in her early 20s but she’s got this massive crush on Chris Evans but is too proud to make the first move because she’s scared of rejection but he likes her too, and then there’s a party with all MCU members - maybe the Oscars or A4 premiere afterparty, where they get drunk and make out in front of everybody and then maybe smut ensues? Please xx

A/N: i cant see endgame until tuesday i hate myself. the people tagged are from various captain america or chris evans taglists of mine, hope none that did not want to be tagged were and if so, feel free to dm me so i can remove you from the list (:

Pairing: chris evans x reader

Word count: 2478

Warnings: smut, explicit scenes, vulgar language.

His admiration for you was enormous and quite difficult to describe. Before the fourth and final Avengers movie, you had only ever done small theatrical shows and minor close to dispensable roles, so when you were cast to play a young version of Black Widow it was utterly impressive you came and stole the show with your undeniable skills, even if your overall screen time was just about 10 minutes.

However, even with no more than little screen time, you had to undergo an insane training program and take ballet classes—even if that had been your own decision. Your dedication to make your time worth was evident and you took all the advice you could, always listening to directors and coworkers to make the best of your performance. This was one of those “once in a lifetime opportunities” people always spoke about and considering you had never attended any acting schools for it was a miracle you had even landed the role, and at the ripe age of 23.

Set was amazing in spite of the long hours as the dynamic was beyond magical. There was no question whether these guys were professionals, which should have put you off and feel a tad out of place, only they never failed to make you feel part of the MCU family—one man in particular.

It was nonsensical to think just two years ago you had been at the verge of giving up on acting and went to carry on the family business. The flower boutique had always been like a second home but in your final years of school, you had sworn if you were to spend another minute in that godforsaken place you would blow it up and your head with it.

Now instead with no hands nor brains in your ablaze childhood home, you stood with a drink in your hand and a huge grin on your face, greeting Scarlett Johansson for the first time since your last on-set encounter.

“So, what will our next movie be?” asked she and you grinned at her overt hint.

"Well, Feige has yet to turn down a Black Widow solo, soo. . .” responded you, dragging out the ‘so’ for obvious reasons. Nudging her lightly, you earned a laugh and she lifted her hands as if to say “one never might know,” but her sparkly eyes told you otherwise. One might know. “You have no idea how nervous I was when my faced showed up on that screen.”

“Oh, you had no reason to be,” dismissed Scarlett with a wave of the hand. “This is about the best family you could have landed yourself in.”

“I know that now! But, you know, the fans are so dedicated and I figured that would mean either they would love my portrayal, or like—absolutely fucking hate it, you know?” chuckled you nervously and sipped from your drink, eyes scanning across the room.

Scarlett laughed, “well, all I have to say is that I’m glad about the casting director’s choice, getting a new face. I cannot tell you who you were up against, but—trust me when I say, you trumped her in every way.”

Your eyes lit up with both joy and curiousness. “Oh, now you have to tell me!”

Hours had passed and you had never been showered with more compliments and good wishes in your entire life, the fact that they all came from successful personas made you think this was not the last the world had seen of you.

On several occasions had you had your shot at doing something about the immense crush you had on the infamous man of your dreams, however, both worry, perturbation and pride took away what courage the alcohol had built up the entirety of the evening. All you had ever managed to come up with, was your gratitude which was more modest than self-assured as your usual kind of flirting would sound.

Your weak knees and flushed skin was nothing that made you wonder; you knew very well why you were vulnerable to such, and you could only think that the man exposing you to the affection, knew it as well. At least, when your cheeks would burn red at his comments or touch, he seemed pleased with himself.

It was an unusual feel and one you did not like much, contrary to the butterflies fighting in your stomach telling you otherwise. His mere voice took away what confidence was only habitual to your customary tone and the scrunch of his nose when he would laugh never failed to take away your breath. The stunning suit he was clad in assured that even if you managed to hide your uncertain stance, you would show in other ways and some that made you shift just a bit too often. How you should have worn a pantsuit rather than a dress.

Some had kids and some had families, others had varying excuses but the truth was you had nothing awaiting you at home. You did not even have a home to return to for you were going straight back to your hotel after this. However, you did not mind, the thought of sharing a life with someone was nice, surely, only the truth was you did not long to leave. The night had been filled with such happiness, which to you was not wonted; how could you want to leave that behind? If so, it was for the reason to take care of your untamed amorous state.

Troubled with your own thoughts, you had yet to recognize it had been Chris to move beside you until he spoke up.

“No one to go home to?”

You could recognize the kindness in his eyes anywhere. With a soft chuckle, your finger traced the stem of the wine glass and blinked at him. “That should only be if room service's waiting for me. If not, then sadly, no.”

His eyes glistened in the dim lightening from the bar, the bright ones behind his head contributing to the lit glory hovering above him. With a smile, Chris sat down, the halo vanishing as he did. “You’re still checked in on the hotel?”

Nodding in affirmation, you raised the glass to meet your lips, your eyes never leaving his blue ones. It was funny how they seemed prettier than ever in this uncertain state. Against common sense and acumen, your judgment decided upon speaking freely, picking what topic you never would have thought yourself to feel confident enough to. Whether it was because you had had enough of being lonely or it simply was the alcohol taking a toll on you, allowing more candidness than needed, you did not know. However, you felt a sudden urge and the words escaped.

“You know I like you, right?”

Chris’ face remained its joyous, laid back look, only the corner of his mouth puckering up. He could not say he was surprised. At least not with your admitted feelings, however, your frankness was something else. Undeniably, he was aware and saying those particular feelings were not reciprocated, would be about the fattest lie of the evening.

“You only say that because you’re drunk.”

“Yes,” drawled you and confessed. “It’s still true though. I shouldn’t have drunk this much.”

“You have been nervous tonight—why?” wondered Chris, thinking of the observation of the night. Whenever spoken, talked or even as little as share momentary eye contact from opposites sides of the room, you had taken another sip from your glass.

With a sudden puff of discomfort, you felt all the more self-conscious. Now, this was awkward.

“I haven’t. Or I have—but, uh. . .” You had no idea how to respond, and from his insoluble expression and soft, awaiting eyes you were forced to find the right words. “I’m not usually like this. Drunk—I, it’s really your fault—”

“That you’re drunk?”

“No—that’s my poor sagacity. You make me nervous,” divulged you, not finding the courage in you to look up for the reaction you so longed for. Instead, your head fell back, sucking in a deep breath and you found him through the corner of your eye. “I guess I wanted to build up the courage to. . . I don’t know, I was afraid this was the last time I would see you.”

“Nonsense. You’re in the Marvel-family now—”

“I know, I know and it’s great, I just—I really like you.”

Silence imbued, the tension you felt pent up completely locking out any signs of the ongoing party behind you. Good thing you were sat on a stool otherwise you might just have fallen to the ground as you knees were about as weak as your sense of vaunt. This man shot you all the way back to your high school years and for making you all hot and bothered, you tried to convince you did not like him. But truly, what was there not to like. With a heart of gold and always decent presentation, sense of humor and bearing soul, he was the one.

“So if I kissed you right now, you would not mind?”

One of your eyebrows bounced in surprise and Chris stifled his chuckle, how glorious you looked tonight. “Right here?”

Giving you no time to contemplate, he leaned in and in a split-second, your lips were connected in a sweet kiss. Being what you had only ever dreamed of, you melted under his enchantment. He tasted sweet and fresh, his cologne lingering to your nostrils and you could only worry of what strong liquor he might sense. But it did not make him stop and careless to what eyes might lurk from behind, he pulled you closer by the neck and parted his lips, deepening the kiss. At his touch, his large hand forcing you closer to him, you hummed into his mouth, reaching up to rest your hand by his beard as you allowed his tongue to dance with your own. Sweet with a pinch of sourness, you lost track of time and only departed when you had completely abated the intensity of your surroundings.

Retreating, you distanced yourself with only a minuscule amount of space left between you, catching your breath.

“Perhaps this is not the best place to do this,” admitted you, a grin playing on your lip and a glimpse flashed in your eye.

“So we leave then,” proposed he and stood up, almost to fast and your eyes grew big for a moment, knowing what he implied. Was this real?

Holding out his hand, you did not hesitate for more than what seconds the stun took and you were then on your way. Pace steady and moderate, something you could keep up with in your heels and you held your head down as you exited and cameras flashed. Out of instinct, you went to retrieve your hand, thinking Chris, too, was not keen on being seen like this. But he did not let go. His grip even tightened and casting a fleeting look across his shoulder, he offered you a sincere smile.

Up in your hotel room, little time was left to settle or even wriggle out of your dress, for the second the door was closed, your lips were once again touching. Chuckling to yourself, you were pleased to know you had not been the only one longing for this moment.

Reaching behind to fondle with the zipper, you managed to pull it down and with the help of Chris, you were freed from its clutching grip on you. Pooling down by your feet, Chris' hands slid up the backside of your legs. On his knees, he peppered kisses, trailing up, closer and closer to your sex, ensuring you would drip the second he removed your panties.

With a final flicker of his eyes, he found you watching him closely with soft and lustful eyes, bottom lip tugged between your teeth and how the pleasure pulled at your features only made him harder in his pants. Taking the encouraging hum you emitted as consent, he rid you of the remaining garment. Licking his lips, he pushed you back to sit on the bed and adored the sight of you. So wet and all for him.

Moving his hands back down your legs, Chris lifted them over his shoulders and dug right in between your legs. His tongue blending with you arousal was enough to elicit a dulcet sound from you, moan after moan escaping as he took care of you.

His facial hair nuzzling where you were most sensitive as he licked long strokes, draining you from what you could offer, you knew he would have you shaken in a matter of seconds. Aching for more friction, his hand came to the rescue, thump grazing past your clit, earning an upward thrust from your hips. His other hand came around you and retiring for just a moment you bucked up to find what sensation had become vague, but when he inserted two fingers in you, the wait was worth it.

At a modest pace he began, just enough pleasure for you to adjust to his two fingers pumping in and out of your cunt, and when first the velocity increased, Chris’ tempo was adequate to make you cum hard right then and there.

The room resonated with your moans and you had to cover your mouth in order to quiet yourself, slightly embarrassed he had you wrapped around his finger like that. But soon his hand removed your own, wanting to hear you more than anything, desperate to hear what he did to you. It had been all too long since he felt this powerful and you gave him everything you wanted by allowing him to eat you like to the likeness of a starving animal. The vibrations, the shameless, guttural groans, the tremors—it was all in the mix of pushing you over the edge and your clawing in his hair as he continued drawing moans from you.

Upon your culmination, you finally released on his tongue, mellow same as wanton sounds escaping you in the process. Riding out your orgasm, you ground your sex against him, pulsating around his fingers and when you finally came down from your high, but Chris did not yield. Continuing, he merciless rammed into you, groaning loudly at the feel of you clenching around his fingers.

Cleaning you with his mouth, Chris relished in your juices and first then he parted from you, only to stand tall before you and his hands fiddled with his black tie. Dark eyes and glinting beard, loosened knot and then the sound of his belt clanging rang in your ears. He nodded down at you, a desiring shade peaking behind the blue in his eyes. “Turn around for me.”

TAGLIST: @patzammit @derekxsammy @woodworthti666 @littledeadrottinghood @littlemissirish @figure8ght @metalarmlover @athiestangel @ihclipse @denzmallows @crist1216 @tinageekandtraveler @mustbeaweasleyginger @feysandmaraudersdramatic @marshyymello @astrid345 @schilj79 @idiosadeoro @justtrynasurvivelife @pixiehex1985 @writing-parker @exuberantqueer @sodonutnutnut @lilymdonaldson

#chris evans #chris evans smut #captain america #captain america smut #chris evans imagine #captain america imagine #avengers #avengers smut #the avengers smut #the avengers #avengers endgame #endgame #theplumsoldier #marvel imagines

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allofthefeelings · 4 years

Note

Hi. I forgot that sad endings exist, and now, I'm scared stupid after your last BW movie post. She's dead already! I want something close to happy! (Oh god, I hope the fanfics come through 😭😭😭)

(Before I begin, I would also like you to know that, while this is over 4000 words long, I did cut a several-paragraphs-long digression comparing the BW movie to Beauty and the Beast: The Enchanted Christmas. You’re welcome.)

I know I’m once again outing myself as an optimist here, and I’m sure I’ll also end up getting smug asks in four months when much of my speculation is wrong, but what the hell. If I was on this tumblr to be right I would have made a LOT of different decisions.

So.

I really, truly don’t think we’re going to get a sad ending.

But the question is, how does it achieve a not-sad ending? Or, to completely re-frame and re-structure: for a character like Natasha, what exactly is a happy ending?

Buckle in, because this gets long.

I think we can all agree that, by definition, we’re starting the movie from a point of melancholy at best, just because we know that in 2023 Natasha will be dead. She doesn’t get to ride into the sunset in any way, shape, or form. Every other solo movie- even the ones with tragic endings, like Thor Ragnarok’s destruction of Asgard and a large portion of its people- have given characters a path forward and the odds that even if this won’t give them a happy ending, it gives them a way towards one. It ends with hope. There isn’t room for that here, for obvious reasons. But what there is room for- and this is, ironically, achievable because of one of the major flaws of IW- is the idea that she did achieve growth, and then had six years to live the life she wanted.

Or, not the life she WANTED, which probably would not have been one part on the run/five parts half of society obliterated by Thanos. Let’s say she had the chance to live a terrible life self-actualized.

IW’s complete and utter lack of meaningful characterization for 90% of the cast means that we don’t really have a sense of where Natasha was in that movie. That gives a lot of room to play with, to put Natasha at the end of the BW movie in a place that she wants to be in. In other words, they can retroactively argue that the reason Natasha isn’t given room to grow in IW is that she had achieved her growth in between CW and IW.

Which, look. Doylistically this is beyond bullshit. Doylistically this is actually offensive, and if they’re looking to retroactively placate us about how Natasha’s arc went, it really doesn’t work. I’m not talking about what was intended, or what was achieved; I don’t think this is either of those. I’m talking about what we can choose to read into it.

And, frankly, as a Natasha fan, that’s pretty much all we do anyway. I can argue (and clearly have argued) her arc for ages, but that’s all the work I’ve done, and you (collective, Natasha fans) have done- not the work the text has done.

None of this is remotely answering the question. But I think it’s necessary groundwork to begin to answer the question.

Because what the BW movie can give us is that growth arc that takes place in the negative spaces of canon.

Well, first of all, the BW movie gives us the fact that things happen at all in the negative spaces of canon. I know I’ve discussed this already, but it’s worth mentioning again: the way audiences are supposed to read texts is that everything pertinent happens on screen. Even supplemental texts that are considered canonical (cut scenes, novelizations, official tie-in comics, movie scripts) are deemed inherently less valuable because they aren’t on the screen. This movie affirms that important events are happening off-screen, to everyone- or at least everyone who isn’t front and center.

This is, again, infuriating, and I feel like when I say this I’m inadveretently contributing to justification. That is not my intention. Natasha’s growth should have been on screen and should have been seen as important. I hate that it’s reduced to a single movie after ten years and the character’s death. I don’t think this justifies it. AT THE SAME TIME, I think this opens space for us to look at lots of characters who haven’t gotten the screen time they deserved.

(Like, they may never give Rhodey the movie he deserves, but at least no one can tell us that if he did something worth seeing it would have been on screen. This movie’s existence is a rebuttal of that. This is a digression but one I’m gonna keep making until everyone starts casually referring to awesome shit Rhodey did off-screen because WHY THE FUCK NOT, YOU CAN’T PROVE IT DIDN’T HAPPEN, “IT DIDN’T HAPPEN ON SCREEN” IS NO LONGER PROOF OF ANYTHING EXCEPT THEY HAVEN’T DONE THE SET-IN-THE-PAST MOVIE YET. Y E T.)

But we also get the possibility of growth, and to analyze what growth means for Natasha’s character.

So here is an issue: I can tell you, with a frankly absurd amount of confidence, what I read Natasha’s arc as. I can lay it out from film to film, I can point to key growth moments, I can read a lot into every scrap that made it into the final cut and I can tell you exactly why, and I feel like if you dig into my history you’re going to find a lot of me citing specific scenes to make my point so I’m not going to go too in-depth on an already-long post that is getting exponentially longer. I think that Natasha’s key arc is in figuring out who she is and what she needs, and how to be a person rather than a reflection of what is asked of her. I think that the mirror imagery in the trailer and in the SDCC/D23 BW footage lends credence to this being a key theme of the movie.

But I have absolutely no idea if I’m right, because the MCU has never considered Natasha to be important enough to be the focus, and as a result I read her arc mostly through the ways she mirrors other characters’ stories, usually to show their strengths by comparison. I do my best to make arguments that are textually supported, but at the same time, it’s like describing the sun entirely from the way that its light reflects off the moon.

So I can say that for the BW movie to be satisfying, it needs to offer completion to her arc, which is then capped in IW/Endgame but would have reached its climax in the BW movie. But since I cannot confidently tell you what her arc has been so far, I can’t figure out exactly how that arc could be satisfactorily completed. Which means, after SEEING the movie, I will have to retroactively figure out how they saw her arc, and then figure out if this was a satisfactory way to end it.

But an argument done in hindsight is colored by what I’ve already seen, and that’s a cheat. So let’s start over.

Here is what we know:

Natasha was taken from her family very young (Endgame: didn’t know her father’s name). As a child, she was abused and manipulated by the Red Room (Agent Carter; Age of Ultron). She was trained to be a Black Widow, did terrible shit for them for a while, defected, became a mercenary, did terrible shit for the highest bidder (Avengers). Clint was sent to kill her but made a different call and brought her in to SHIELD (Avengers). Natasha quickly rose in the ranks and became one half of a STRIKE team watched over by Fury’s right-hand man, Coulson (Avengers). Natasha also became very close with Nick Fury, the head of SHIELD (IM2, Cap2). At some point in there she was shot by the Winter Soldier (Cap2). She was one of the people behind putting together the Avengers Initiative, identifying Tony Stark as not qualified (IM2), and recruited into the team herself (Avengers). She did not leave the Avengers teams for the next 11 years; she was on the first iteration (lasting through Age of Ultron), the second (Age of Ultron through Civil War), and then the Secret Avengers (which we can now assume starts post-BW through Infinity War) and Avengers 3.0 (five-year gap team), as well as the Quantum Realm Team-Up Team right up til she got yeeted off Vormir.

We’ll set Secret Avengers and Team 3.0 aside for the moment, as they’re things that will exist post-BW movie canon.

Natasha’s narrative role has often been to be so amazing that when she’s bested, we know the other person is really good. The best way for me to pull this together into a coherent throughline is that Natasha tends to be bested by people with passion and emotional stakes. When Natasha is just doing her job, but Pepper cares about Tony or the Dora Milaje care about T’Challa, she is outmatched. In Cap2, when Natasha cares deeply about SHIELD and who she’s loyal to, she is able to outmatch everyone she faces, but since she’s a secondary character and her act isn’t as highly visible on screen, her heroism isn’t as spotlighted.

(That said, make no mistake, WE WILL BE COMING BACK TO HER HEROIC MOVE IN THIS MOVIE.)

Her role has also been, as I mentioned earlier, to be a mirror to the white male heroes. She mirrors Tony in IM2, Clint in Avengers, Steve in Cap2, and Bruce in Ultron. I can make a strong argument, that I feel is supported by each text, that each of these mirrors is about moderation, and both the white man of choice and Natasha finding that the ideal is somewhere between both points: the space between how and why Tony and Natasha handle secrecy; between how Clint and Natasha handle guilt; between how Steve and Natasha handle trust; between how Bruce and Natasha handle self-hatred. That the writers and directors often disagree with my read of this does not, in any way, dissuade me from believing it, but it does mean that this may not be the arc we’re looking at in the movie.

By the arcs that I’ve traced, though, they have a fair amount of leeway to give a satisfying conclusion no matter what the plot is. By having other characters mirroring Natasha, she is centered in a way she never had been, and simply being the protagonist of her own story is part of Natasha’s journey we haven’t seen. We know that this is going to in some way revisit the Red Room, and that means that we’ll get to see a story where Natasha is passionate about and personally connected to what she’s fighting. We also know that whatever the story is, it will not be Natasha mediating someone else’s approach to the world, but Natasha’s approach to the world with someone else (I’m guessing Yelena?) mediating her worldview, in a way that gives Natasha growth but does not undercut her as someone who had so much to learn from the REAL hero.

All plot to the side, simply because Natasha is the protagonist, there is an element of satisfaction inherent, both textually and metatextually, because Natasha’s role of being sidelined is both within the text and within the media landscape a struggle she’s finally able to overcome. There is also a metatextual satisfaction just in cleaning up the bits and pieces of canon that we’ve gotten that were left hanging. For example, in her heroic climax in Winter Soldier, Natasha- who was so focused on being able to transform into whatever was necessary- released a fuck-ton of national security information on the internet, including her own history, that made her both immutable and knowable. (Do you ever think about how this means that people living within the MCU know more about Natasha’s background than we, the audience, does? Because I do, c o n s t a n t l y.) Natasha went from working undercover and in the shadows to being an Avenger and releasing not just her own and not just SHIELD’s but also the Red Room’s dirty laundry in public, and that has never had narrative consequences; this is a great opportunity to use that, closing a loop that most people probably forgot even existed.

Speaking of closure.

I think this movie HAD to be designed with that specifically in mind. I don’t think they necessarily expected the backlash they got from Natasha’s death (I’m going to be honest here; I didn’t expect it from anyone but Natasha fans), but at least they had to know that people who had been promised Natasha would get her due in canon would be frustrated and want some sign that the complexity of the character that had been talked up for a decade was actually part of the story they put on film. Marvel wants to placate fans, yes, but they wouldn’t waste millions upon millions of dollars on a movie to get us to shut up; their job is to bring in money, and it’s not like they haven’t gotten ten years’ worth from us. They’re also savvy enough to know that for a character who’s no longer alive in canon, they need to do things that make their story relevant even without them having future appearances- and I think we’ll see that in Yelena and Taskmaster- but also to make this story have stakes.

Yeah, we never spend a Marvel movie saying “Oh geez, what if the hero dies?” (well, aside from Civil War, because comics oontext), but right now we’re going in knowing (or, bare minimum, thinking we know) exactly what happens to Natasha. Where she’ll end up just under two years from when the story starts is set in stone (NO PUN INTENDED). So we need another way to give the story stakes. Natasha’s life and her future aren’t up in the air. Her past is, I guess, but they’ve been clear this movie isn’t about her past. And where that leaves us is the emotional journey. I outlined above what I think that is, but it doesn’t have to be that to be satisfying- it just has to be some way to leave Natasha changed in a way that surprises us as audience.

And, sure, that could be loss- that could be betrayal from everyone in this movie, leaving her alone and with no one to turn to but the Avengers- but I don’t think that is. I think that’s looking at Natasha’s story like she’s still a secondary character, rather than the protagonist. The basic structure of a superhero movie (and specifically a Marvel movie) is that the protagonist suffers defeat but ultimately triumphs, internally if not externally, having learned something that takes them farther on their emotional journey. Since (as far as we )know this is the only movie Nat’s getting- she’s not getting a trilogy or a Dis+ show- this needs to take her farther than most single-protagonist movies have.

In terms of another kind of closure: If the movie doesn’t offer at least a hint of a way Nat could come back (and I’m still hoping for that no matter how unlikely it is, and if it doesn’t happen I’m hoping for it in the Dr Strange sequel, and after that I’m sure I’ll find another path), I think there’s an excellent chance the post-credits scene will be a funeral for her. Given that they have SebStan and Mackie and Emily Van Camp shooting together right now, it would be very easy to at the VERY least get us a scene of them mourning her. It’s not the same as Tony’s giant lakehouse memorial, but it’s about half the characters who were close to her when she was alive (the others being Clint, Maria, and Fury, and I’m pretty sure they could have put an hour of time on the FFH set to the latter two having five seconds of looking solemn). I think that, given the backlash to Endgame, they need something like this: we need to see, on screen, conclusive proof that Natasha’s life mattered, not just for the audience, but for the world she lived in.

My dream would be for the entire movie to use a frame story OF her funeral- people talking about her, different memories and different understandings, that combine in different ways to collectively show a whole. Fucking Rashomon that shit. But we all know they’re not going to do that.

I recognize I am still talking satisfying and not happy.

But what exactly is happy? What exactly is the happy ending Natasha might want?

She’s not a character who wants to retire or settle down somewhere. As much as we in the audience talk about wanting her to get a break, we’ve never seen that from her, and we also don’t see a world that could really offer that to her; especially post-Cap2, Natasha does not have the luxury of escaping her past even if she did want to.

We don’t know her goals. We don’t know what she wanted outside of making amends for her past. We’ve gotten that from almost every other character- say what you want about Steve’s Endgame ending (god knows I have), or about Bruce being a public figure that kids love, but at least there was groundwork laid for it.

i think the best argument we have for what makes Natasha happy is in Civil War, when it’s taken away. Natasha is willing to give up things that are important to her (her autonomy) in favor of not losing her team; being together is the priority for her. By the end of Civil War, she’s lost even that; she’s seen to have betrayed her entire team and has no one. By IW we know that she re-finds her group, that she and Steve and Sam and Wanda are a tightly-knit unit, but we have to piece it together ourselves, and we have no way to know that it’s by choice rather than necessity. (The BW trailer is really the first time we get evidence that Natasha has more resources than just the Avengers or SHIELD; even fic has tended to just posit she has empty safehouses, not living people she can go to.) The BW movie could give her that team, and retroactively make her appearance in IW a reward for her- having found the team she wanted- rather than just the natural place for her to end up.

But I can’t see how that would even work without at least some of Chris Evans, Anthony Mackie, and Elizabeth Olsen appearing in this movie and showing on screen that Natasha has her people. We haven’t seen evidence they aren’t, but at least I haven’t heard any rumors they are, the way we’ve heard rumors about RDJ.

And there’s something awful, to me, in Natasha constantly being supporting in other people’s movies, which exist to seem self-contained even if they’re not, but then in her movie her emotional fulfillment relying on things that happen elsewhere- the implication that her emotional arc can’t even support a single movie.

In terms of what we’ve seen achieved, Natasha seems happiest when she’s solving a problem, when she’s fighting and winning and being the hero she doesn’t quite believe she is. But that’s not something that can be an end to an arc, of a decade or even of two hours. No matter how great that is, it’s a momentary thing, and it’s fleeting. That’s happiness but not narratively satisfying

This remains not an answer to the original questions.

I think part of the issue is, it’s not necessarily that we need Natasha to be happy, for her to have a happy ending. It’s that we, the audience, wants to be happy- and frankly, I don’t think that’s unreasonable; we’re not going to blockbusters to have our hearts torn out (and I think that after Endgame especially, Natasha fans are not ready or willing to do that again). And so we’re looking less at how Natasha can be happy, but how we can be happy. Selfishly, I’d even add: how we can be happy without doing the work. How we can be happy without conspiracy-theorizing our way to a satisfying narrative, but rather, a narrative that’s already on the screen, that we can just roll around in and enjoy.

I realize how bizarre this is to say after 3000+ words, but: I want the opportunity to be a lazy viewer. I want the chance to take things in without having to take responsibility for making them into something I want to see. I don’t want to have to reverse-engineer her story; I want to dig into the minutiae that is maybe actually intended.

On some level, that’s going to be the happy ending for me. Just having a whole text to dive into is a gift. (I am probably monkey-pawing myself just by saying this, which is the same kind of bullshit I argued for Age of Ultron- but then, I still can rewatch Ultron and find a lot that I like.) And Natasha getting a narrative win- which, as protagonist, she kind of has to- will be a happy ending for me.

But I’m a Natasha fan. This is expected.

What I think is the real question under all of this- what I’ve been struggling to tease out from my own feelings, and maybe now I’m finally getting to it- is a different question entirely: how can Marvel craft a story that sticks with their formula of giving a protagonist a win and something like a happy ending, while telling a story about a character who has been sidelined for ten years until they killed her off? Setting aside those of us who are overly invested in Natasha’s arc, what is the path to telling a story that the majority of the audience- most of whom haven’t traced her history, many of whom are casual fans, some of whom probably didn’t even see Endgame- finds fulfilling and happy?

The hero has to win, obviously. The hero has to triumph. Natasha has to come away having saved the world (stopping a villain from destruction), her world (protecting those close to her), and her internal world (some kind of emotional progress/catharsis). There will be moments intended for the audience to cheer. That’s a formula that you can find in nearly every superhero movie, and with good reason; I can’t think of why it wouldn’t apply here.

So looping back around, the question about the sad ending really is just for those of us who are deeply engaged. It’s not “will Natasha triumph?” because yes, she will- of course she will. We are going to get a movie where the world will be saved by Natasha (which has happened before) and the text will acknowledge that (which it really has not). The real question at hand is “will Natasha’s triumph be enough to mitigate the substantial losses she’s had in the other movies, or will it be bittersweet, her success here just underscoring the way that her biggest narrative win was to kill herself for no recognition?”

Which, of course, on some level, will vary from audience member to audience member. But I think that, with the awareness of how Endgame worked, and the knowledge of exactly when this movie is coming out, they have to at least try to give her- and us- this.

It’s now 5:15 AM and this is over 4000 words long and if you’ve read all this you deserve a medal. I’m happy to clarify or expand on anything in a few hours when I get up; I know that I circled a few points rather than clearly making them, but I’m no longer even completely sure what is common knowledge and what is me projecting. Hopefully this can at least start a conversation?

ETA: And anon, I am sure no matter what happens, fanfic will have our backs.

#allofthereplies #Anonymous #meta #Black Widow #Black Widow movie #BW speculation #Natasha Romanoff #IM2 spoilers #Avengers spoilers #Cap2 spoilers #Avengers2 spoilers #Cap3 spoilers #Avengers3 spoilers #Avengers4 spoilers #I cannot stress enough that I'm sorry I'm like this #long post

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daughterofluthien · 5 years

Text

Fictober - Day 3

Fanfiction

Fandom: Spider-Man (MCU)

Rating: T

Relationships: Peter and Tony

Warnings: referenced major character death

Word Count: 1.9K

Prompt 3 - “Now? Now you listen to me?”

Two weeks after arriving back in New York (two weeks after Mysterio. Two weeks after deciding that he still wanted to be Spider-Man after all), Peter thought that he had started to settle in to life After.

And all things considered, life was good. Should be good. In fact, he could count off all the things that made his life a pretty great one, and even he had to admit that it wasn’t exactly a thin list.

He had a girlfriend now, for one. And she was great and amazing and she knew who he was, and she just made the world make sense, somehow. Like he could handle anything when she was beside him.

...Or maybe that was the hormones talking. He was 16 after all, and hormones were notoriously well known for interfering with those things.

Except you’re not 16, a traitorous voice in the back of his head reminded him, and technically it was right. If you did the math - which Peter had - and actually counted the days, he was really 17. But because he kinda hadn’t existed for five years and the Avengers weren’t really worried about making sure that making sure that the second snap was on the anniversary of the first snap--

It was stupid and pointless, but of all the things that Thanos had taken, the one that that really annoyed him was the fact that Thanos had stolen a birthday from him. He was 17 now, and sure, May would throw a birthday party for him literally two months from now -- she’d throw him one now if he asked her, probably -- but nobody celebrated his birthday on the day he turned 17. Nobody even knew that it had happened.

He didn’t even realized he’d turned 17 until a week later. He didn’t tell anyone.

Thanos had taken other things, too, of course, but those things were too wrapped in choice and responsibility and fault for him to be angry. There wasn’t any guilt mixed in when he was righteously angry about a stolen birthday.

But anyways, in the grand scheme of things -- in the ways that mattered -- life was good. Not only did he have MJ, but he had May and Ned supporting him. He had Happy, who understood the everyday superheroing life a little better than the others and was always there to offer advice, or even just a steady assurance that everything was going to be okay.

He had access to more tech than ever before, as well as resources to build anything he could think of, including gadget designs that he had folded up and shoved in the back of a textbook months ago (years ago) because there was no way he would ever be able to build it.

He had EDITH, which… Wow.

And he had his Peter-tingle back, better and stronger than ever.

So yeah, all in all, life was good.

Should be good.

Was good.

At any rate, he had to stop feeling sorry for himself. He was freaking Spider-Man, the whole city had its eye on him, and he had a job to do. A job that he really, truly, did love.

Except, of course, for the times that he didn’t.

Which was stupid and selfish and childish, and he know that. But human brains -- and even super-human ones -- are stupid, and so here he was, sitting on his bed, and thinking.

He didn’t want to be thinking. He’d rather be swinging through the city or working on a design, or--

There were a lot of things he’d rather be doing, really, but the reason he was sitting here thinking today was because of what he was currently holding in his hands. It was a small box, barely bigger than Peter’s hand, and he hadn’t opened it yet. Happy had given it to him earlier today, and said it was from Mr. Stark. He didn’t say what was in it.

Peter fiddled with the EDITH glasses currently hanging from the collar of his Spidey suit, which he still hadn’t taken off after his patrol earlier. He wasn’t sure if he was ready to open the box yet, but waiting was just stupid and cowardly and hiding, so he took a deep breath and flipped open the latch.

It turned out the box wasn’t a box in the traditional sense, but a little, self-contained hologram projector. When he flipped open the lid, it flickered on with a little hum that would’ve been inaudible to anyone who didn’t have his hearing, and Mr. Stark appeared, projected above the device.

It wasn’t life size, but it was big enough that holding it wasn’t exactly comfortable viewing distance, so he set it on his desk chair and sat back down on his bed to watch.

He tried not to think about the fact that this was exactly where he had been sitting the first time he met Mr. Stark.

“Hey, Pete.”

Mr. Stark -- Tony -- was older than he remembered, though he supposed that was how he had looked at the battle as well. Peter hadn’t really been paying attention at the time, but now he couldn’t help but notice just how many gray hairs the older man had. He looked tired, too, and Peter wondered just how many hours he had stayed up working before making this recording.

“Do I look like Princess Leia like this? Don’t answer that.” The Tony in the hologram shifted slightly, like he was unsure what he should say next. “If you’re watching this, then it means that it worked. Everything we were working towards, everything we were trying we trying to undo-- It worked. And that means it was all worth it. Whatever happens next, whatever happens to me… It’s worth it. I want you to remember that.”

Tony took a deep breath. “Of course, if we’re all very lucky, I’ll be here watching this with you, and we’ll both have a good laugh at how ridiculous it is that I even recorded this. But if I’ve learned anything over the past 15 years, it’s that I don’t tend to get lucky very often. Best to prepare for the worst.

“If you’re watching this, that means you also agreed to accept the glasses -- and I know that because I’ve got a second recording for if you didn’t, so hopefully Happy gave you the right one. If he didn’t, go ahead and stop the tape here, take it back, and don’t forget to ‘be kind, rewind.’” A pause. “Yeah, you’re too young to get that joke, aren’t you, so nevermind. Anyways, I assume, due to the fact that you’re still watching this, that you are now the proud owner of what are probably the most high tech pieces of eyewear anywhere on Earth that isn’t Wakanda. And this being the case, I have two things that I want to say to you.

“First of all, now? Now you listen to me, really? Two years, and you never did what I asked. I asked you to stay away from the big fights, you didn’t do it, then I asked you to join the Avengers, you said no. I told you not to get on the spaceship; guess what you did.

“Not that I’m surprised you chose to do this, mind you.” Hologram Tony pulled a pair of glasses identical to the ones Peter was wearing out of his pocket and waved them at the camera. “These are pretty cool.”

Tony fiddled with the glasses for a moment before putting them back in his pocket and looking directly at the camera. At Peter. “I said two things, didn’t I? Right. The second thing is that I’m proud of you. I’m proud of Spider-Man, and I’m proud of Peter Parker. That last fight, we didn’t win, but we wouldn’t have gotten nearly as far without you. You did good, kid. Remember that.”

Peter thought vaguely that if he was as good as Mr. Stark seemed to think, then he would’ve been able to get that glove away faster. That he never should’ve let him be in a position where the only choice was to--

But the hologram of Tony was still talking, and Peter didn’t want to miss a word of what he was saying, so he pushed the thought away for later.

“Of course,” Tony continued, “Being good doesn’t mean you won’t fail. Because you will. I have, plenty of times. And when that happens, you pick yourself up, you figure out what went wrong, and you do the best you can to keep it from happening again.” Another pause. “Then there’s the things that happen that can’t be fixed. Those are the really hard ones. And when that happens -- and it will happen -- you have to figure out how to forgive yourself, and you move on.” A slight chuckle. “I’ve never been very good at that. Especially not that first part.

“You know, I said earlier that I don’t get lucky very often, but that wasn’t entirely true. I got to be lucky for five years. Have you met Morgan yet? You probably have, but let me tell you, she’s brilliant. Probably be giving you a run for your money in a few years. You should spend some time with her, she could use a big brother.

“But most importantly, Pete, I want you to find someone. I don’t care who it is, it could be your aunt, or that girl you were head over heels for and couldn’t shut up about-- Michelle, right? It can even be that geeky friend of yours, I don’t care, but you have to pick someone. Someone you trust. And I want you to talk to them. Because this life isn’t easy, and you can’t hold it all it in. Trust me, I’ve tried. It took me a long time to learn that, so be better than me. I know you have it in you.”

Tony’s pause was longer this time, and he glanced off to the side. “Well, I think that’s about all the time we have for this. It’s late, and I have more of these to record. Not just for you, so don’t go getting a big head.”

He looked directly at the camera one last time. “Go out there and be amazing, Spider-Man.”

Tony waved his hand at some device Peter couldn’t see, and the projection winked out of existence.

Peter sat on his bed silently for a moment, then got up and fiddled with the device until he found the replay button. He watched it three more times, and when he was done he had practically memorized the entire message.

He wasn’t sure he fully believed what Tony had to say about failure, because in his experience failure got people killed. When you failed, you didn’t get hurt, but someone else -- someone important -- got menaced by drones or shot or fried by radiation or--

He had a sudden memory of Mr. Stark’s arms around him as he crumbled away.

Oh.

He wasn’t entirely sure what moving on looked like, but Tony had done it, hadn’t he? He had done it for five years. The least Peter could do was try.

Peter shut the lid on the projector, and tucked the box away in a corner of his desk drawer. Then he thought he’d go find May and see if she wanted to order pizza in tonight. It had been awhile since they had really talked, and he found he was looking forward to the conversation.

#fictober19 #spider-man mcu #peter parker #tony stark #spiderman ffh #guys i really need to start making these shorter holy crap #birthday calculations courtesy of momentofmemory because she's smart like that #momentofmemory #my fic

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