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samwisethewitch · 5 months

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What Non-Pagans Need to Know About Fiction Featuring Pagan Gods

In light of Marvel's Loki show dropping a second season and a new Percy Jackson series on the horizon, I want to say some things about how fandom spaces can be respectful of real-life pagan religion.

Let's get one thing out of the way: literally no one is saying you can't enjoy fiction that uses pagan gods and heroes as characters. No one is saying, "Stop writing stories about our gods." In fact, many ancient cultures wrote fiction about their gods -- look at Greek theater or the Norse Eddas. The act of writing fiction about the gods is not offensive in itself.

But please remember that this is someone's religion.

The gods are not "just archetypes." Their myths are not "just stories." Their personalities are not a matter of artistic interpretation. For many pagans, the gods are very much real in a literal sense. I don't think Thor is a metaphor or a symbol -- for me, Thor is a real, autonomous spiritual being who exists outside of human perceptions of him, and who I have chosen to build a relationship with. Even if you are a hardcore atheist, I would hope you could at least be respectful of the fact that, to many modern pagans, the gods are both very real and very important.

When authors are not respectful of this fact, they reduce the gods, these very real objects of worship, to fictional characters. And here's the thing about fictional characters: they are fundamentally tools for authors to use to draw a desired emotional response from an audience.

Dracula's personality and behavior is wildly different depending on who is writing him, because different authors use Dracula to create different reactions in their audiences. In the 1931 film starring Bela Lugosi, he's equal parts alluring and disturbing, a symbol of America's mixed desire and disdain for foreigners. In Nosferatu, he's more strictly frightening and disgusting. In Francis Ford Coppola's movie, he's a tragic, romantic figure clinging to the last scraps of his humanity. In Netflix's Castlevania, he's an incredibly powerful being who has grown bitter and apathetic in his immortality. All of this is Dracula, and all of it is fine, because Dracula is not and never has been a central figure in anyone's religion.

Let's take a look at what happens when authors give this same treatment to real gods:

In Hellenic polytheism, Apollo is one of the most beloved gods, both historically and today. Apollo loves humanity, and humanity loves him back. He is the god of sunlight and of medicine, but also of poetry and song. He is one of humanity's most consistent defenders when one of the other gods gets wrathful. And while he does have dangerous or wrathful aspects of his own (he's also the god of disease, after all), he's also kind and soft with humanity in a way other gods often aren't, at least in some historic sources.

In the Lore Olympus comic series, Apollo is a villain. He's characterized as an abuser, a manipulator, and a violent man child. LO!Apollo is downright hateful, because the author wants us to hate him. Lore Olympus is a retelling of a myth about an abduction and forced marriage. Lore Olympus is also a romance. In order to get the audience to sympathize with Hades and root for his relationship with Persephone, Rachel Smythe needed to make someone else the villain. Apollo is the most obvious and extreme character assassination in Smythe's work, but several other gods (notably Demeter) also get the asshole makeover to tell the story Smythe wants to tell.

Here's where this becomes a problem: Hellenic polytheism is a fairly small religious community, while Lore Olympus is a massively popular webtoon with 1.3 billion views as of August 2023, print books available from major retailers, a TV adaptation in the works, and a very active online fandom. Rachel Smythe currently has a MUCH bigger platform than any Hellenic polytheism practitioner. Smythe and other authors are shaping how modern culture views the Hellenic gods, and that has a very real impact on their worshipers.

This means "Apollo is an abusive asshole" is becoming a popular take online, and is even creeping into pagan communities. I've personally seen people be harassed for worshiping Apollo because of it. I've seen new pagans and pagan-curious folks who totally misunderstand the roles Apollo, Hades, and Persephone play in the Hellenic pantheon because of Lore Olympus and other modern works of fiction.

There are tons of other examples of this in modern pop culture, but I'll just rattle off a few of the ones that annoy me most: Rick Riordan depicting Ares/Mars as a brutish asshole hyped up on toxic masculinity; Rick Riordan depicting Athena as a mother goddess; Marvel depicting Thor as a dumb jock; Marvel depicting Odin as a cold, uncaring father; DC depicting Ares as purely evil; whatever the fuck the Vikings TV show was trying to do with seidr; the list goes on.

All of these are examples of religious appropriation. Religious appropriation is when sacred symbols are taken out of their original religious context by outsiders, so that the original meaning is lost or changed. It requires a power imbalance -- the person taking the symbols is usually part of a dominant religious culture. In many cases, the person doing the appropriation has a much bigger platform than anyone who has the knowledge to correct them.

When Rick Rioridan or Rachel Smythe totally mischaracterizes a Greek god to tell a story, and then actual Hellenic pagans get harassed for worshiping that god, that's religious appropriation.

Religious appropriation is a real issue. This isn't just pagans being sensitive. To use an extreme example: Richard Wagner and other German Romantic authors in the 19th century used the Norse gods and other Germanic deities as symbols in their work, which was a major influence on Nazi philosophy. Without Wagner, the Nazis would not have latched onto the Norse gods as symbols of their white supremacist agenda. To this day, there are white supremacist groups who claim to worship our gods or who use our religious imagery in their hate movement. We are still reckoning with the misinterpretation of our gods popularized by Wagner and other German Romantics almost 200 years ago.

Again, no one is saying you can't enjoy fiction based on pagan mythology. But there are a few things you can do to help prevent religious appropriation in fandom spaces:

Above all else, be mindful that while this may just be a story to you, it is someone's religion.

Recognize that enjoying fiction based on our gods does not mean you know our gods. You know fictional characters with the same names as our gods, who may or may not be accurate to real-life worship.

Do not argue with or try to correct pagans when we talk about our experience of our gods.

Don't invalidate or belittle pagan worship. Again, this mostly comes down to recognizing that our religion is totally separate from your fandom. We aren't LARPing or playing pretend. Our sacred traditions are real and valid.

If you see other people in your fandom engaging in religious appropriation, point out what they are doing and why it isn't okay.

Please tag your fandom content appropriately on social media. Always tag the show, movie, book, etc. that a post is about in addition to other relevant tags. This allows pagans to block these fandom tags if we don't want to see them and prevents fandom content showing up in religious tags.

For example, if I'm posting about Athena from the Percy Jackson books, I would tag the post #athena #athenapjo #percyjackson #pjo. You get the idea.

And if fiction sparks your interest and you want to learn more about the actual worship of the gods, you can always ask! Most pagans love talking about our gods and trading book recs.

If you are writing fiction based on real mythology, talk to people who worship those gods. Ask them what a respectful portrayal would look like. If possible, include a note in your finished work reminding audiences that it is a work of fiction and not meant to accurately portray these gods.

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justanotherwriter140 · 2 months

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Kung Fu Panda 4 - The Movie

The last really, really long discussion post (for now).

Major spoilers ahead!

This review is full of spoilers, so please refrain from reading through it until you've watched KFP4. I would highly suggest doing so, as I want everyone to form their own opinions without my influence. The movie has its flaws (some of which admittedly being a bit distracting), but it's a fun film that has things to offer.

Kung Fu Panda 4 is a fun movie (take that as you will) that takes its audience on an action-packed, surprisingly funny, yet relatively contained adventure on which Po doesn't really do much. It's an inconsequential, safe sequel that doesn't really hurt the franchise but adds close to nothing.

I had a good time watching the movie. It was obviously produced with its theater experience in mind and the action scenes especially reflected that priority. The humor was actually funny sometimes and I enjoyed Po and Zhen's dynamic. During the film, I was able to put most (most!) of my grievances aside and take the movie for what it is. I've discovered that the best way to watch KFP4 is with low expectations and an open mind.

I have a lot of things to say about KFP4, both complaints and compliments (though the former might be taking the forefront in this review), and I hope this review can help those of you who have seen the movie organize your thoughts. I've been having a lot of trouble with that specific aspect of things myself. Those who get it get it.

With that said, let's get into my full review of KFP4! I've been waiting for nearly 2 years to write this and I'm so excited to share every single thought.

I'm going to follow the format of my first discussion post and curate a bulleted list of my thoughts, followed by an analysis of each of these points. Keep in mind that everything I say is IMO and this is more of a rant post than anything else.

Here are my main points:

The Furious Five's role is comically minuscule in the context of the film. Their actions are inconsequential and add nothing to the plot (a confirmed last-minute add), and they have 30~ seconds of screen time. Shifu is also largely irrelevant.

Mr. Ping and Li's presence has little to no effect on the movie (though I won't complain too much because they were pretty fun to watch and this movie has bigger problems). In almost any scenario, I am adamantly against having characters present that don't add anything to the narrative; however, Mr. Ping is an exception. I love Mr. Ping. James Hong is a gem.

Zhen's screen time is not utilized well and her character is underdeveloped. She definitely wasn't annoying, but I didn't find her either compelling or funny enough to warrant the screen time she was given, especially considering it wasn't used to establish a backstory/strong motives. This makes me feel bad for the character because the movie kind of screwed her out of any substantial development.

The Chameleon, while complimented greatly by Viola Davis, is an underwhelming villain. Viola Davis is amazing in this film and I would suggest watching it for her performance if for nothing else, but the Chameleon is underwhelming considering the super cool concept behind the character.

The film feels very rushed. Apologies to those who disagree, but I think the pacing is atrocious and the final fight is anticlimactic. The movie felt like a word-vomit with no discernible intermissions that stops abruptly when the film ends.

I felt as though Po didn't change/grow as a person and the audience never had a chance to either bond with or relate to his character. His internal struggle is kept to a minimum and we don't spend a moment alone with him as an audience, which is disorienting and distracting. Watching the film felt like running into an old friend at the store who's too in a rush to have a real conversation.

The action scenes were strong with few exceptions. Creative art direction was utilized and I thought the martial arts choreography was entertaining and dynamic. I love the color palette of the film and many scenes were very impressive visually.

With my main points established, I do believe it's ranting time. Strap in, folks.

Let's start strong with the Furious Five: I'm gutted. Chagrined, despondent, crestfallen, etc.

The lack of the Furious Five negatively affects KFP4 so much, because not only does their absence hurt the atmospheric integrity of KFP as a franchise, it also forces KFP4 to bring in a slew of different characters—all while still noncommittally including the FF at the very end because I believe the marketing team required it—that clog up the cast a bit. It all goes to show how important strong, established side characters are.

The Furious Five are side characters, but the role of "side character" does not equate to being irrelevant, expendable, or exchangeable. I recognize that the Furious Five aren't super developed as characters beyond a handful of lines that allude to traits sprinkled sparingly among the members; however, I believe that the tiny bits of development we have been given have proved impactful in the past. Tigress's development in KFP2 is a prime example of how much narratively conscious changes (however small they may be) can positively affect these movies.

Because of limited runtimes, the Furious Five often operate as more of a singular unit than five individuals. Even so, I don't think discarding them is valid. They're so important to the KFP universe (to Po's universe!) and not having them with him feels so wrong. The Furious Five are fully integral to the heart of Kung Fu Panda, which is why I believe a lot of those who have seen the new movie have expressed something feeling "off" or something being missing.

I agree with this sentiment. To me, KFP4 didn't feel like a KFP movie. I don't need a Furious Five spin-off movie and I can be fully content with a KFP5 centered around Po's journey as an individual as was intended from the beginning, but he can't carry an entire movie on his back. As strong as he is in every sense of the word, he is only one character. He's the centerpiece of the franchise, but a centerpiece can only go so far without the rest of the design, so to speak.

For me, the Furious Five's absence is one of this film's biggest faults. It's huge and glaring. I know I'm not the only one who feels this way, either, because the friends with whom I saw the film refused to talk about any other aspect of the movie after seeing it. Seeing them at the end was better than nothing, of course, but it was a disappointing culmination after eight years of waiting.

That all is to say I feel robbed. Despite all of this, though, I understand that there were reasons why the Furious Five weren't included in the movie. I don't believe the production team would exclude the Furious Five unless they weren't given a choice.

Shifu and Po's dynamic continues to be thoroughly delightful but their interactions are short and simplified. I would have loved to see more of them in this film, especially considering the extreme relevance of teacher-student relationships in KFP4. I (somewhat) digress, though, because the idea of Shifu having to live at the Jade Palace with only Po for an extended period of time is hilarious enough on its own. Maybe that's what the short film is about!

The comedy is odd but has some jokes that stand out. Po maintains a healthy relationship with his inner sass, which I think makes him more fun to watch and kind of eradicates the man-child verdict. Some jokes don't land, of course, but I genuinely thought KFP4 had some funny moments. Mr. Ping was consistently awesome and Po had some good lines sprinkled throughout the film.

As for Mr. Ping, he and Li Shan are the subjects of the film's B-plot as they follow Po to Juniper City out of shared concern for their son's safety. In my mind, they don't add anything to the story that couldn't have been brought about by other characters, but they had their moments of being entertaining. I enjoyed their silliness and thought they had a cute dynamic if nothing else.

Speaking of other characters, I want to discuss KFP4's deuteragonist and why I genuinely feel bad about the way her character was treated.

I want to let it be known that I'm still not on board with Po passing the Dragon Warrior torch to another character. While I agree that his arc is now calling for him to have a student, I disagree with the notion of him retiring from his DW role.

As I stated in my first discussion post:

Didn’t the initial significance and nuance of the title come from the fact that there is only one person who can be the Dragon Warrior, because the concept of the “Dragon Warrior” isn’t so much a title as it is Po himself? The universe (Oogway) must choose the Dragon Warrior because they are a singular being of legend. It is one person, and that person is Po. Wasn’t the point of the first film that the title ultimately doesn’t really matter because there is no “secret ingredient,” so to speak? The title doesn’t actually give Po anything. “It’s just you,” Po says, and that was the resolution.

When it comes to Zhen as a character, contrary to what I predicted I would think of her, I thought she was okay. While I was still a bit distracted by how out-of-place her design looks, I wasn't truly annoyed by her at any point and she and Po had some cute moments. Even so, I think their relationship could have been a bit more refined and developed.

While it's evident that Po and Zhen are meant to have a teacher-student/mentor-apprentice dynamic, I think their relationship feels half-baked. There were parallels that contradicted one another and ended up being confusing come the film's conclusion, and the nature of their relationship seems to vacillate depending on the scene. Additionally, the strength of their bond goes from zero to one hundred within thirty-ish minutes and left me with a bit of whiplash.

We're shown that Po and Zhen care about one another, but we're never shown why. They have a brief conversation during which they bond over being orphans, and Zhen says at one point, "You're actually a good guy," but that's it. This obvious lack of development is a bit disorienting because we're later led to believe that Zhen and Po care very deeply for one another when there's almost nothing to back it up.

A scene that sticks out to me when discussing this is when Zhen attack-hugs Po in a way that explicitly mirrors Tigress's hug from KFP2. This happens around the beginning of the third act, and while it had the potential to be an endearing moment, I think it fell flat.

The impact of Tigress's hug was brought on by her character's hardcore nature and reputation of being heartless, further strengthened with the knowledge that she was hugging Po (which was obviously way outside her comfort zone) as a show of companionship and fundamental understanding. Tigress hugged Po because he needed someone to recognize his strive for closure.

Zhen's hug had little to no impact because she had no reason to do it and it didn't indicate growth. She hugs Po because she's sorry for betraying him and doesn't want him to be killed by the Chameleon, but neither of these things are newly-established via this hug; we have already gathered by now that Zhen regrets betraying Po and doesn't want him to get hurt.

The hug is far from the movie's weakest point, but I think it's unnecessary given the context. I'm big on hugs in movies (an underutilized form of platonic affection, in my opinion), but it didn't fit here. I don't hate it, and I see it as an honest effort to bring emotionality to Po and Zhen's relationship, but it seems arbitrary.

Zhen and Po's relationship has a lot of potential and I'd be open to seeing more of them in the future, but I think some more thoughtful development needs to occur before I can humor it further. Even so, I can see myself featuring Zhen in some future post-KFP4 one-shots—sparingly, of course, because we have a lot of Furious Five content to compensate for.

Overall, they had a cute dynamic and some sweet moments but I'm not attached. I'm on board with Po having a student but I think their relationship needs a lot more development, something that this film unfortunately didn't give them time to either accomplish or earn.

Now, onto the Chameleon!

The concept of the Chameleon's character is admittedly super interesting. She's the deuteragonist's fastidious mother figure who feels that Zhen owes her a debt and as a result holds her to an impossible standard. That dynamic had the potential to be so interesting but I didn't think it was explored at all. There is no indication of Zhen having any internal conflict about fighting the Chameleon, no emotional complexity between them at all; it's disappointing because I think it would've added a bit of earnestness to the film.

Additionally, the idea of a shape-shifting villain is versatile. A shape-shifting villain gives those telling the story a lot of room to experiment with the protagonist and different ways in which the main character can be challenged and tested. It's yet another good idea utilized poorly. Just one idea: the Chameleon could have disguised herself as one (or several) of Po's family, friends, etc. and brought to fruition a new arc with his character (seeing as he arguably doesn't have one in this film), but she only disguises herself as Zhen very briefly in the movie.

Furthermore, the Chameleon completely relies on the powers of previous villains to pose any sort of threat to the main characters. She summons Po's former nemeses from the Spirit Realm (despite there being little logic in doing so considering Kai's literal evisceration) and takes their kung fu abilities for herself.

An excerpt from my first KFP4 discussion post that I think is relevant to the point I'm trying to make:

I don’t think it would be in the best interest of anyone if the past villains were to come back in any way that’s not a flashback (even then, I’m not sure I’d see the point). In all honesty, I thought that the whole point of the villains was that they died and stayed dead. They were defeated by Po once and for all as a testament to the idea of establishing Po's character growth and journey as a person through the bad things he’s able to overcome. It’d be highly contradictory to the messages of the other films if these villains were to suddenly come back.

While there was an honest effort made to portray the Chameleon as intimidating, I never felt as though any of the characters were endangered by either her or her army of lizard henchman. She's a visually appealing character (aside from her eyes, which I thought more resembled those of a gecko than a chameleon) and I greatly enjoyed Davis's performance, but overall I don't see the Chameleon as a notable villain.

The return of Tai Lung (had he been on his own) had the makings to be an excellent story, especially considering the importance of teacher-student dynamics in KFP4. To see him interacting with Shifu would have been incredible and could have led to further closure on Tai Lung's end (because I think that's kind of what the team was going for anyway), but it didn't happen.

It was nice to see Ian McShane reprise his role, but I wish Tai Lung's characterization had been more reminiscent of the way he was in the first film and more complimentary of his overall character arc. Tai Lung isn't a one-dimensional villain with a singular goal and motivation, and I couldn't help but feel as though the complexity of his character was simplified for the sake of KFP4's narrative.

Tai Lung's presence in KFP4 may be odd, but Shen and Kai's appearances are even more so. Kai, if I remember correctly, was fully obliterated by Po, reduced to literal particles on screen (which is kind of wild now that I think about it). Shen being in the Spirit Realm makes sense all things considered; however, Po and Li had no visible reaction to his presence, which seemed a bit unlikely considering Shen's deeds. This plot hole can likely be attributed to the fact that Shen and Kai's cameos (to my knowledge) were last-minute additions to the movie.

I have to talk about the pacing. I have to. I'm sorry, bear with me.

To me, the film's pacing is erratic and disconcerting. While I can appreciate a quick-moving narrative that doesn't dawdle on storylines that aren't interesting/important, KFP4 kind of flings itself too far in the opposite direction and ends up being frighteningly fast-paced. Once the credits began, I felt like I had been holding my breath for the entire movie.

KFP4 is confusing because while the runtime is standard for a KFP movie, it feels incredibly short. At the same time, the film's story moves at a breakneck speed and leaves little time for heart and development. These things culminate into a barreling boulder of a movie that simply doesn't have time to let its characters, story, or audience take a breath.

A fast pace is not inherently negative, but I don't think it worked in the favor of KFP4. The KFP franchise has always been very emotionally grounded (and just very grounded in general), so to see a film in which emotion/heart takes an aggressive backseat in comparison to action and comedy is jarring. While I think it's unreasonable for fans to expect the same emotional integrity as the original films to be present in the current and upcoming ones, I still think there's room for Po to grow and I felt as though the notion of him developing further was brushed aside in this film.

As for Po's growth, I felt it was nearly nonexistent. The previous trilogy wrapped up his character's journey beautifully and I know that KFP4 was bound to struggle with this particular aspect of making another KFP film; however, just because the strongest pillars of Po's character are established doesn't serve as a valid excuse to reverse his development and repeat what he learned in KFP3.

In KFP3, Po learned firsthand that he is capable of spreading wisdom and teaching kung fu. He also learns that he is constantly growing and that change is inevitable; there is always something more to learn.

"If you only do what you can do, you will never be more than you are now."

"I don't want to be anything more, I like who I am!"

In KFP4, Po pushes against this narrative despite fully accepting it in KFP3, actively reversing crucial parts of his character development achieved in the latter. KFP3 was non-ambiguously about learning to cope with change and responsibility, and I can't help but feel like KFP4 is simply copying this message while not adding anything to it.

Additionally, I felt that KFP4's Po generally felt less personal than he has in the past. In every KFP movie up to the franchise's most recent addition, I felt very connected to Po as an audience member. I felt like I was truly seeing the world of KFP through his eyes. I consider this to be one of the franchise's most impressive feats; it's incredibly difficult to build a universe around a character without making the audience feel limited to one perspective and one part of the world.

With KFP4, I felt both limited and disconnected. The world didn't feel as vast and all-encompassing as it has in the past and Po didn't seem fully like himself. This could be me nitpicking (as I'm prone to do), but I can't recall a single moment in the movie in which Po was alone on screen. Scenes like these are crucial for me because I see them as a meet-cute between the character and the audience, a moment for us to cross the bridge into their world in a way that's silent and intuitive. These little bonding moments are absolutely integral to feeling connected to a character.

Po's dream sequence in the first KFP movie is one of the best examples of this. It presents his aspirations, alludes to his way of life up to the point of the movie, and showcases his personality. During Po's dream sequence, the audience is quite literally inside Po's mind; we're there with him, seeing what he sees, subsequently feeling what he feels. Po is a dreamer at heart and makes the audience feel like dreamers, too.

In KFP4, I felt like I little to no point of reference when it comes to how Po was feeling. I didn't feel immersed in him and his world.

I know I've been very "doom and gloom" throughout this post, which is an exhausting mindset for everyone involved. I want to end my critique with something positive because I think some praise is deserved. Let's just say the movie could have been a lot worse, the details of which I'm sure you're all well aware.

The color palette of the movie is beautiful and somewhat reminiscent of the first film. While the animation style of KFP4 is far more simplistic than its predecessors, I was very impressed with its use of shadow and light. Po's many faces were also hysterical, props to those who helped make him as expressive as he is.

Additionally, the movie's action sequences were clearly thought out and discussed in great detail. The experimentation with camera angles was really fun to watch and I enjoyed the majority of the film's fight scenes. They were fun, bouncy, and entertaining, and quite likely reinstated audiences's love of watching a cuddly panda kick butt.

Congratulations, you've reached the end! Thank you so much to all of you who took the time to read this unnecessarily long and detailed review. As long as I help someone translate their conflicted feelings into coherent thoughts, I'll call it a win.

I want to reiterate that I don't hate Kung Fu Panda 4 and I had fun while watching the film. It has its flaws and there are a lot of aspects that I dislike, but the effort of the crew is obvious and I greatly admire and respect the hard work put into the film by those who worked on it. This does not at all excuse my issues with the movie, but it's worth saying.

As for the future of the series, I only hope that the next installment is more considerate of the franchise's origins and why Po's story is being told in the first place. I fully believe that another sequel could be good given a strong, passionate crew with a great understanding of the characters and world (and I wouldn't be averse to some previous directors returning, just to put it out there).

Thanks again to those who took the time to read this crazy excuse for a movie review. Feel free to either disagree with me or add things in the replies/reblogs, I'm always looking for more thoughts to think.

Until next time!

#kung fu panda 4 #kung fu panda #dreamworks animation #kfp #kfp 4 #movie review #i'll add the actual picture of the furious five's cameo when i can get ahold of one of decent quality #my time has come #it wasn't THAT bad #i didn't love it #but it is what it is #it's a tentative 6/10 all things considered #free the five #perhaps i treated kfp3 too harshly #don't get me wrong the movie had good qualities and i can tell a lot of work went into it #a lot of missed potential imo #a lot of characters done dirty #i didn't even mention the score but i thought it was just okay #i wasn't wowed #i know close to nothing about composing though so i should probably just not even go there #credits were the best part both cinematically and musically #i feel mean but i'm not going to be dishonest #bc obviously you all simply must know how i feel about the silly panda movie #a more detailed version of the grievances i have w the dragon warrior plot can be found in my og discussion post if anyone's interested #as well as my thoughts on bringing back old villains #might make some edits to this in the future but this is all i have to say for now

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himejoshiangels · 2 months

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have u ever seen a comic book panel so beautiful it made u wnna cry?

#its a little on the nose but KYAHHHH #its fffff its literally him its literally duke thomas like actually himand not thw evil fanon twin that wears his face #and??? like it summarized 2 big ole points in the duke discussion circles and shows that hes come so so far #he can actually rely on others and he felt like he was invisible and AAAA its too early 4 me rn ill come back when i ahve the right words #but like even tho this is kinda bare minimum i feel so so vindicated and im so glad the writing did a minimum amount of research b 4 writing #him and this was the perfect story to put him specifically in bcs the villains motives seem to foil dukes own #also i love the little detail of duke offering him food and to talk ot thru its so consistent to his character #its literally not even a full comic but i feel so happy i could cry #I WILL B TALKING MORE L8R work 2 do rn..#the signal #duke thomas #batfam #dc tag #thought bubbles

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strangegutz · 2 months

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Sometimes I want to knock Eddie down a peg, and that’s when @anonymouspuzzler ‘s Davey comes back to the Gulch

bonus under cut

#heartbreak gulch #doodles #eddie ramirez #zekyir al najar #villain coded #it was discussed on the other blog but Zeki likes confident older men #Eddie normally wouldnt care what Zeki’s getting up to but Davey is an exception. there’s actual competition there

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helpfandom · 8 months

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Analysis on YANDERE PLATONIC TAS Batman Villains. Pt 1.

THIS IS NOT THE NEW ANIMATED SERIES. Strictly ONLY The Animated Series.

Villains:

MR. FREEZE

RIDDLER

CLAYFACE

POISON IVY

MAD HATTER

CATWOMAN

What I am using as the archtypes: https://www.tumblr.com/helpfandom/724022554446135296/types-of-yandere?source=share YANDERE_AUXILLARY made it!!!!

I find it so curious that people neglect Platonic as a yandere version, {not to say that I am a pioneer, no no no, but rather that people don't write about it as much as romantic.} And so, here is my analysis on various TAS Batman Villains. Of course, this is part one, as there are many TAS villains. I just need to get to them.

Also, side note. Thank you TAS writers for already making Mad Hatter a yandere so now I have less work to do.

Mr Freeze: Now, he is the yandere type of Obsessive, Overprotective, Clingy. He found something else to focus on, and it happened to be you. Reader would be more of the friendly type, more outgoing for Mr. Freeze to have such an obsession with them. He wouldn't stalk you as much, more so just an immediate kidnap the next time he sees you. Most likely catalyst for his yandere swap would be dealing with the loss of his wife. He lost his wife. He won't lose his kid too. Maybe Reader was there to help, or maybe he saw his wife in you. No matter what it was, as soon as there is an obsession, he wants to keep you. You're screwed as soon as it began. He's overprotective, constantly hovering over you. "I've lost too much. I won't lose the last thing of my wife, too!"

Riddler: Hmm... His yandere archetypes for platonic is... Possessive, Delusional, Sadistic, and Self-Indulgent. His egotistical personality, tied with an obsession with a kid who is unafraid to throw hostility back? Not a good pair for Gotham. In his mind, to not be afraid of him, or to throw hostility back at him, must mean that you like him. And with his intelligence, how could you not? His catalyst, well, there isn't really a catalyst per say, more so he was already obsessed with beating Batman and being intelligent, so why wouldn't he be obsessed with someone who can challenge him? He's more of a stalker type, only kidnapping when Batman and Robin get a little too close to you for his comfort. You're just like a little him, well you have to be taught by the best, most intelligent, and that's him. "Well well, my dear child. You seem to have escaped, but I'm sure you know that you won't be out for long..."

Clayface: He is... Clingy, Manipulative, Impulsive, and slightly Sadistic. He would be obsessed likely with a theatre kid, or someone who enjoys the fine arts {So an Art Kid, Band Kid, Choir Kid, etc.} He would see that and miss the days when he could do that, when he could act or enjoy the arts. Because he can transform his shape into anybody, he transforms himself into people close to you, of course he stalks them ahead of time so that he can properly assume their character, but he quickly kills them off so he can assume that role in your life. If it was a friend who had a crush on you, he enjoys watching the life leave their eyes. How dare they try to ruin your potential with their desires? He uses someone in a position of power, too. Likely a teacher, or if you have a director? Boom, suddenly you have the main role, or a solo, or you won the first place in an art competition. Who knows what kind of a catalyst would be there, all I can tell you is that BOOM! You're being kidnapped by someone you trusted deeply. You watch your former mentor's skin droop off of this, this person, who's kidnapping you, revealing a rocky, clay texture. Clayface. "Heya kid, you already slipped up and called your teacher Dad, so I know you can for me too. Here, would looking like them help?"

Poison Ivy: Her yandere archetypes are Overprotective, Clingy, and attempts to be Manipulative. Delusional, but yet Lucid; She has delusions about Reader, but not in the 'ah, yes. Reader loves me too.' She would be a little apprehensive at an uncaring Reader, after all, if you're not for plants, you must be against plants. For an uncaring Reader to work, Reader must be a plant lover. Poison Ivy would see this, and suddenly everything makes sense. She assumes that Reader puts up a fake persona so that Reader can care for plants in their free time, so that no one knows that Reader loves plants. She loves that about Reader, and that's why she gets obsessed. She wants to keep the only other plant lover in Gotham and protect them against the cold, cruel world. She would originally try a sporeling, but she misses the real you so that plan fails and that's why she would kidnap you. "Come here my Rosebud, the world is cruel. Let me be your mother, like Mother Earth."

Mad Hatter: His characteristics are Delusional, Self-Indulgent, Overprotective, and Clingy. Who truly knows why he started to care for you? Perhaps you reminded him of someone a little too much... Nevertheless, not what we are here to focus on. He would not be a stalkerish type, but he would delude himself into believing you love him like a father. He would not be afraid to use his mind control on you. As soon as he manages to get you under his control, you're screwed. You're gone from Gotham forever. He has been shown to be willing to do it before, with Alice. I think he would be willing to do it until he gets you to the safe house which looks a lot like one of the sets for Alice in Wonderland... He would be overprotective, scared that Batman would take away his kid, take away the few things in life he loves. "NO NO NO! Batman simply cannot take away my child too!"

Catwoman: She is Clingy, Manipulative, Impulsive. She has been shown to be someone with a ton of money, {Paying $10,000 dollars for a charity that she loves, a lot of money, period, but also for 1992} So I feel that she would be willing to use that against her kiddo, saying that it's okay for Reader to use her money, and then guilt tripping Reader {who, realistically, wouldn't give a shit, but I digress.} Into staying with her to pay off the debt. Her clingy and Impulsiveness is because of when she was involuntarily transformed into an animal, some things stayed the same, and now that she found her cub? Even Batman can't fight a wild animal for her kid. "Lioncub, why are you worried? Mommy's got enough money for the both of us."

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gaywarcriminals · 1 year

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Shen Jiu’s horrible response to trauma is incredibly relatable.

At least in western media, there’s this huge prevalence of the “what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger” narrative, and that… is simply not how trauma works. There is some truth to that statement, in that when healed properly, you often come out reinforced along the seams where you shattered, but it was the careful repairing that created this newfound strength, not the thing that smashed you to the floor to begin with.

Without that repairing and reinforcement, you end up fragile, haphazardly cobbled back together without any glue preventing your pieces from just falling apart again.

I read Shen Jiu as having cPTSD. This seems well supported by the text (though obviously this setting would not apply such language to his mental health). Shen Jiu is someone who has been broken over and over again, never getting properly repaired in between.

He is not beautiful broken. He is a mess of sharp bits and missing pieces held together by sheer spite. And the thing that I love so much about him is that it is simultaneously not his fault that he is so sharp and difficult to hold, and it is still his responsibility when those sharp edges cut someone. The narrative absolves him of nothing.

He is not at fault for the circumstances that have brought him to this point, but he is responsible for being better. But that is just so. Incredibly. Hard. It’s easier for him to just decide he’s inherently a terrible person, that he’s fated to be like this, that there is no possible path to being better.

Even without trauma as extreme and all consuming as Shen Jiu’s, it’s so easy to feel that way. There’s a reason the cycle of abuse exists: it is hard to heal, and it is hard to be better. But we are still morally bound to do it, if not for ourselves, then for the sake of those around us.

#When you've lost pieces of yourself what can you possibly fill them with but hatred #svsss #scum villain #shen jiu #shen qingqiu #meta #cw discussion of trauma #watch me write a dozen variations of the same ideas because I think about it constantly #fish meta #fish post

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littlekohai77 · 17 days

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Thoughts so far (Ikevil)

🄲🄾🄽🅃🄴🄽🅃 🅆🄰🅁🄽🄸🄽🄶: This is nothing but just a ramble, a bit suggestive, op is clinically insane.

*･ﾟﾟ･*:.｡..｡.:*ﾟ:*:✼✿　　✿✼:*ﾟ:.｡..｡.:*･ﾟﾟ･*

Okay so I finally tired out Ikevil and I just wanna say....

I'm in love with William. I have known him for no longer than an hour but I'll commit war crimes for him. Wtf how can someone be so lovely??? How can someone be so captivating that other people become this obsessed with them?

I can't even begin to fathom what I'm feeling right now.

I'm so confused and intrigued because usually, the recommend suitor tends to be really cold or the route turns out to be boring. Basically they tend to be the golden cow.

But William is an anomaly. He's not cold or rude or harsh or as morally gray as others.

He seems quite level headed, polite and morally good.

At least from my impression of him so far.

Also Harrison is so 😍😫😩🙌🙏😫😭💀🤔🤤😓😬🤒🤗😘😚😡🤬😤🤯🧐😳🙄😳😳😳😍 🙇‍♀️🤰💃💃🏃‍♀️👀👁👁👀👁👁💦🔥💦😻😫😖

But I still didn't pick his route for now. I'll probably go for him after William.

Strangely enough, Liam doesn't interest me in the slightest bit in the romantic aspect. But I do want to be his friend, if that's even possible, cause he seems to be suffering.

Also Harrison gives off traitor vibes which is even more 😍🤗😍😳🙌😩

April 24... I'll keep it in mind and see for myself.

I don't know what it is I like about Ellis. Maybe it's just that I'm into size kinks and he's one tall goofy little goober. Also the fact that he wants to make you happy 😏 HUEHWUHEHEHEH

Jude Jazza. Is giving frollo vibes. Idk why IT'S GIVING FROLLO FROM HUNCHBACK OF NOTRE DAME. Also he has a resemblance to Silvio. The tone, the 'woman', the hair, the face, the attitude.

I'm sorry but Elbert is giving FUCKING MAGPIE VIBES. It's kinda adorable. Until he steals your jewelry.

Idk what to feel about Roger. What's even more unsettling is the uncanny resemblance with Tray from Twisted Wonderland. I associate Tray always with good things but Roger gives off none of that and that clash makes me feel unnerved and queasy.

Victor... I don't know what to feel about him. His carefree and easy going nature makes me even more weary of him.

I don't like Alfons. Period.

He just radiates toxicity. He looks like he's an avid player of mind games and I do not wish to participate.

Yeah... That's about all of them for now.

ALSO KATE

KATE KATE KATE

I think I'm having another gay moment here cause goddamn is she beautiful and do I feel for her. I might just make another oc and ship her with Kate... For science..

I have bearly started the route but I'm already in love with William.

*･ﾟﾟ･*:.｡..｡.:*ﾟ:*:✼✿　　✿✼:*ﾟ:.｡..｡.:*･ﾟﾟ･*

𝙰𝚕𝚛𝚒𝚐𝚑𝚝... 𝚃𝚑𝚊𝚗𝚔 𝚢𝚘𝚞. :)

#ikemen series #ikemen #ikevil #ikemen villains #ikemen villains jude #ikevil victor #ikevil jude #ikevil william #ikevil harrison #ikevil liam #ikevil ellis #ikevil elbert #ikevil alfons #ikevil oc #ikevil discussions #pointless rambling

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oraclekleo · 9 months

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Stray Kids as Villains (non tarot)

Disclaimer:

This isn't tarot related

These are my personal impressions

I'm in no way saying any of the members would ever be as evil as described here

This is a hypothetical scenario 'what if'

Some things might trigger you, don't read if you are overly sensitive person

Stray Kids as Villains

(Based on my observation, non-tarot)

Bang Chan

Bang Chan really oozes some daddy vibes so I think, in a twisted reality, he could become the super perfectionist father, forcing his child to achieve the goals Chan had himself but for some reason wasn’t able to reach. You know the type of father who will put his daughter through a drill on the ice ring to push her towards an olympic gold medal for ice skating. The type of villain who sort of means well and wants his children to be more successful in life than he was but in fact ruining their lives, pushing them into extremes. He might be super bitter about his own failed ambitions, blaming others and circumstances for his life failures. So yeah, not exactly a super villain but more like an everyday person gone too far over the border.

Lee Know

Lee Know would make a good Joker but that’s not the only villain he could portray. He’s sort of a wild card. He might become any type of villain but I can mostly see him as a shady but sort of fun and sarcastic villain, someone who knows how to bend or break the rules. A leader of high class thieves, the brain of a super complex heist, that’s Lee Know. His charisma can seduce a cashier in a bank so he can pull some crucial security information from her, he can dress up as a janitor to map the bank and the positioning of CCTV, he can easily play a wealthy foreign potential investor talking to the head manager of the bank and letting them show him their vault security level. Lee Know and his crew would rob the bank successfully but Lee Know being too greedy would also have a watertight perfect plan on disposing of his minions so he doesn’t have to pay them and there’s no risk of anyone breaking at police interrogation.

Changbin

Changbin is a tough one. He’s not very villainous in my eyes but let’s try. He gives both boyfriend and daddy vibes so I guess he could go a similar way as Chan. Only he would be the overprotective and possessive boyfriend, who checks his lover’s phone, texts them every hour asking where they are and who is with them. His love could go toxic and unhealthy. The Bluebeard type of a villain. Changbin would slowly separate his lover from their friends and family completely so nobody would actually notice when they disappear. Changbin would murder them and somewhat preserve them so they remain his dolls in some basement gallery of his own and he would ‘collect’ lovers like that. Oh! So I could actually come up with a pretty scary villain even for a guy who doesn’t look villainous. Ain’t I a genius? Lol!

Hyunjin

When it comes to Hyunjin there are more options but I’m gonna go with the most scary one (as I usually do). I think Hyunjin might make a good psycho cult leader. The type of a man, who gathers devoted worshippers around him, especially those who will gladly serve him in more intimate ways. He would teach about some obscure and hella crazy beliefs. He’s a charismatic manipulator and a persuasive rhetorician. He would make his worshippers do anything for him. Sorry for going this dark here and if it triggers you, you shouldn’t read a post about villains.

Han

Oof! Han is too sweet for a villain… I don’t know. Maybe he could be like a sidekick to a villain? Something like an evil version of Batman’s Robin? A young ward of a cruel and greedy villain, a boy only knowing immoral behaviours and so acting like a bully at prestigious school because he knows nothing better? I guess I can’t really figure anything harder for him.

Felix

Felix is also kinda sweet but I can come up with a villainous version of him. He would make a great Venom. He would make such a perfect anti-hero, a guy who would actually be envious of his buddy’s successes that he would be willing to team up with an evil space entity in order to acquire some super powers to match those he’s envious about. He would gladly sacrifice his own personality and autonomy to the parasite.

Seungmin

I don’t know… Seriously. I have no idea. I’m open to your suggestion here because I have spent an hour on Seungmin and I just don’t know.

I.N

Okay! I know! An evil ancient demon waking up after a thousand years of forced imprisonment and ready to sweep the human kind off the earth’s surface. Something like Imhotep in the Mummy movie with Brandon Fraser, if anyone here ever saw it. I.N would make such a great ancient spirit going for revenge spree and hitting the world with one disaster after another. He would have some magic powers or super powers, maybe even needing to perform some bloody ritual sacrifice at the top of some temple in the middle of the jungle. Releasing the powers of some ancient evil to the world. Invincible demon I.N

You can find more Darkness here:

Idols After Dark Master Post

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phoenixcatch7 · 7 months

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Kintsukuroi

'What if I put a clock pendulum in my torso' was the sort of question Bruce had come to expect when visiting Oracle.

"Pendulums are dependant on a stable base," he replied, because the last time he'd assumed they were being unserious Tim had tried to fit a chemistry test lab in his mouth and accidentally leaked the fumes through his mask.

"It'd be so aesthetic though," said Barbara, not looking up from the dozen screens she was surrounded by. "Listen. It would look so cool - Spoiler, robbery on fifth and main - Especially if I put a clock face over my heart."

"I thought you were trying to fit a super computer in it?"

"I was, but progress is slow. It's hard to fit it and enough padding to protect it plus leave enough room for ventilation. If I add the pendulum I might at least get inspiration." She gave a heavy sigh and pushed away from the desk, gliding in her chair to where her doll body was resting on a table, the glue separating the two halves of the smashed torso still glistening. Bruce followed, peering over her at the many scanners and wires hooked into it, flashing and beeping.

"Any luck?" he asked, and they both knew he wasn't talking about the computer anymore.

"Nothing."

He squeezed her shoulder, and she leant into it. They stayed there for a long moment.

"I just don't understand!" Barbara finally burst out, hands clenching on her chair arms. "I glued nearly every single piece back together! I made sure every splinter I could find went exactly where it should! I know the contract is still there. She's worked with more missing pieces before. But she's just not responding!"

"It's not you," Bruce soothed. "You've more than enough determination and strength to puppet, and we know the human body's state doesn't affect performance."

"That's the thing!" Barbara threw her hands up angrily, nearly smacking Bruce in the face. There was a chatter over comms, and both reached for their own. "One second," she said tightly, and wheeled back into the glow of the monitors. "Copy. BW, you're nearest? Thanks. Try and avoid the sniper this time. Wing, backup is in five."

She muted again and spun around, pinning Bruce with a heavy stare. "Is there anything, anything you can think of? We've - nothing I've tried has worked."

"Well...." He trailed off, one hand coming up to rub at the chin of his mask - a quiet night meant the opportunity to forgo the practical but muffling gas mask for his favoured plain black.

It was far from the first time a doll had been horrifically damaged. The incident with Bane came to mind - Batman had been in a very similar condition, body shorn clean in two and tossed to opposite corners. It was an awful memory, but the expression on Bane and the audience's faces as his bloodless body fell apart like a rotting tree trunk and then kept moving was a silver lining he'd always treasure.

But he'd been repaired and back on his feet in weeks, if bearing the incandescent fury of the doll for several more. It had been months for Barbara, and still nothing was happening.

"There's something we're missing, and I doubt it's on your side."

"I know THAT-"

"Listen," he demanded, and her jaw clicked shut mutinously. "There's something we're not seeing. Batgirl is in no shape to demand it herself, it seems. So its inaction is something we can't fully rely on."

"You've got the most experience with the dolls of all of us. Can you.. I don't know, sense anything?"

"Nothing more than the usual, with the Patriarch Doll, but we might get more if we return to the doll house -"

"No." Barbara interrupted again, but Bruce did not take offence. "She's not going anywhere. She doesn't want to head back to the cave."

Oh?

"She doesn't want to, or she doesn't care to?"

"I say she doesn't."

Interesting. This was likely a case of the doll exerting its will. The bats were well versed in avoiding the few lines their wooden bodies drew in the sand, treating them with the wary respect one would give a favorite blade or a highly trained attack dog. They could work together, share the highs and lows of life with them, but never get complacent. The dolls were forever a foreign, inhuman presence, and as with all wild creatures they would never be so arrogant as to assume full understanding. For Barbara to so strongly decide for the doll meant she was most likely not the only one deciding.

Which meant the solution would not be found in the cave.

"Perhaps there are upgrades she wishes to have?"

Oracle paused.

"Maybe," she conceded. "But there's practically a limitless amount of things I could do, and I wouldn't know where to start. And I could more easily do them when she's up and walking."

Not that then. If the doll wanted something to change but not receive upgrades or heal, than what?

... Not heal.

Batman hurried to the table. Oracle watched him with hawk eyes, but another call on the comms turned her away with a final warning glance.

Recovering every single splinter from a damaged wooden object and perfectly reattaching it was nigh impossible on a good day, never mind in the dead of night with a moving target. The dolls always returned to the cave to regenerate scratches and nicks they couldn't buff out, or accepted plaster to transmute with whatever supernatural power guided them.

The batgirl on the table, divested of all covering and armour, was still as chipped and scuffed as the day nightwing recovered last splinter.

The pieces fell into place.

"She doesn't want to be perfectly rebuilt," he realised. "She doesn't want the damage to disappear as it normally does... She wants it to remain visible. A different type of repair, then."

Oracle spun in her wheelchair to face him.

"Why?" she asked, something sharp in her eyes. Bruce chose his next words carefully.

"Perhaps she thinks such damage doesn't need to be hidden away," he said, slowly, and didn't comment when she turned away. Though she put on a strong face, and the doctors had recently released her full time, it would be a long time until the young hero was able to truly heal her mind.

"She doesn't need to do that for me. She's just causing me trouble."

"I don't think she is," he tried. "Dolls tend to reflect their puppeteer even after they accept us. You can't deny your trajectory has been changed."

They both sent a significant look to the enormous super computer taking up the wall.

"You've said you almost feel better able to protect Gotham now, with your reach and skills. Do you really feel that way?"

"I - I don't -" her mouth worked silently, and Bruce waited. "I mean I guess... But a part of me always assumed it'd be temporary, you know? Once I fixed batgirl.. It'd all return to normal." Her voice wobbled, and Bruce didn't hesitate to crouch before her, wrapping her in a long armed hug. She buried herself in his chest, regardless of the chilled metal.

"It's okay if you don't," he whispered into her hair, and held her as she shook. "I'm just throwing ideas around."

"I do though," she rasped. "I think I do feel that way. There's so much that can't be solved by violence, and it feels good to be out there but... I think I can help even more people, this way."

"That's good," he praised, "that's good. You can do whatever you set your mind to."

"You stole that from a parenting book verbatim."

"It's applicable to the current situation."

"Fine," she sighed, and pushed him away to roughly scrub at her eyes. "I'll give the doll another chance. Find some glitter glue or something, I don't know."

"Any materials you need will be provided," he promised. "I wouldn't recommend glitter glue or our usual tar."

He moved to pat her on the hair as the emotions of the moment faded, making sure to keep his unsheathed claws out of her hair.

"Once you fix her, though, I would recommend you puppet the doll during night hours still," he told her. "It wouldn't be good to put your body through twenty hour days."

"I've got a good system set up for now, but thank, B-man."

The computer dinged with another alert, and oracle spun to squint at it with a muffled curse, typing furiously. Batman escaped to the other side of the room, where the folders he'd originally come looking for lay. She waved, distracted, as he left, and although the doll could not smile, he could feel it on his face all the same.

@puppetmaster13u I summon thee dear mutual ^^

#I don't know which of us came up with the kintsukuroi idea but it worked brilliantly #Unexpected discussion of clinging to the idea of normality as something that can be returned to despite thinking you're okay with your #Life altering chronic condition diagnosis 🫠#Off screen nightwing is just not having a good time #I'm still testing out my characterisation of b but I'm pretty happy with him. Good dad b but also pre/no Ethiopia so he's healthier as it i #Oh btw the dolls don't have gender being inanimate the bats are anthropomorphising them #In the same way sailors call their boats she or my mum decided the roomba is a he #Some world building! I stuffed a lot in lol #I like the idea of the bats having different masks. Like the gas mask is for arkham breakouts or gas villains or ivy so it's the famous one #But they also use plain cloth masks or ceramic ones or decorative ones when the occasion calls. They've got scuba ones too #long post #batman #world building #worldbuilding #bruce wayne #possessed doll au #haunted doll #cryptid batman #cryptid batfam #batman au #dc oracle #barbara gordon #batgirl #I'm trying to keep the dolls as mindless but watchful as possible #Like they don't have opinions or ideas or anything. You could do literally whatever you wanted as long as you follow The Rules #I don't think the bats really know about the contracts. I think b has inferred something. But it's more trial and error #One idea I had is that the dolls are powered by the life force of past users mutated into... Whatever tf from all the curses.#So by entering the contract you lose a significant chunk of your ability to enter the afterlife.#Yes this would only be noticed by the jl going to the future and trying to find the souls of everyone or smth for whatever reason #And the bats don't have much of anything. Leading to the further impression that they aren't remotely human

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